The Kevin Sheehan Show - More Rosen News, Caps, and Wilbon

Episode Date: April 12, 2019

Kevin opens with the latest Josh Rosen news and then brings in Isabelle Khurshudyan (Washington Post) to talk Caps-'Canes Game 1. Mike Wilbon joins the show from Los Angeles to talk NBA Playoffs, Magic Johnson, and more. Steve Sands checks in from Augusta to talk Masters. Kevin finishes up with some NBA Playoff Series picks. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right. I am here. Aaron's here. This show's presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com and tell them that we told you to call. A show today, heavy on guests. Mike Wilbon's going to join us in a little bit. We'll talk some NBA playoffs, which get underway tomorrow with Mike and other things. A quick caps can. Game 1 breakdown with Isabel Kershutian from the Washington Post. That in about 10 minutes. Steve Sands later on as well from Augusta and our friend Ben Standing will join us too. He had a conversation with Wizards coach Scott Brooks, but he's got some Redskins information as well.

Good win for the Caps, to be honest with you. I didn't think that they were necessarily the better team, but I'm going to spend some time talking to Isabel about that. That doesn't mean I don't think that they're the better team in general. But last night, I felt like for the majority of the game, they were outplayed. And when it got to three to two with still plenty of time left in the third period, I thought they were in deep trouble. Did you, Aaron?

I was definitely getting a little bit nervous there. I didn't necessarily think trouble, but past demons. It's funny. Actually, you know what? If they hadn't won the Stanley Cup, I would have been extremely nervous. But because they're coming out that Stanley Cup, it seemed a little bit less tension than normal. Yeah, I think the past demon thing, and we talked about that yesterday, I think that may be in the rearview. I don't even think people are going to think that way. In fact, they might think more positively that

they will be able to overcome adversity as they did last year being down in every series that they played in in the postseason. I just felt watching the game, the first seven minutes of the game in particular, I was surprised that Carolina didn't generate a better opportunity, considering that the ice was pretty tilted, I felt, in the first six, seven minutes of the game. And then the caps had their run. You know, they got on the power play twice, scored twice on the power play. Ovechkin once, Baxterm once. Baxterm scored the first goal, which was even-handed, that gave him the lead. And it was 3-0 at the end of the first period pretty much game over.

Now, the night before, Tampa had blown a 3-0 first-1 lead at home and lost to Columbus. So anything was possible. But the caps, I felt, were outplayed in the second period. but Carolina couldn't get a goal out of it. And then when they got the back-to-back goals pretty quickly in the third period, with still, you know, the second one came, I think it was seven, eight minutes into that period. You still had 12 minutes, and then they got on the power play with nine and a half minutes left, somewhere around nine minutes left, and they couldn't make,

it couldn't get anything to stick there. They got a late power play, and they pulled the goaltender. and at that particular moment went six on four and couldn't get a really solid opportunity. So the caps held on. They get game one. We'll get into it in more detail with Isabel here in about five minutes. But they play game two tomorrow. It's the national TV NBC game at 3 o'clock down in Chinatown.

All right, two things on the Redskins real quickly before we get to Isabel. Number one is this. yesterday, I guess, and many of you felt this way, and that's fine. I was just giving you what I think to be the way he is thought of by some anyway at the park. And that is Tommy asked me a question, and we both answered Tommy's question. The question was, you know, if you had to pick one person at Redskins Park to be the final say, the lead talent evaluator, the final say on personnel, you had to pick somebody out. there, who would it be? And I said it would probably be Jay Gruden because I believe that he's got

the best talent evaluating eye out there. Of the, let's just say, of the people that I have a sense of how good they are at this. I don't think Bruce is good at it at all. I think he's a bad talent evaluator. I think Eric Schaefer is a terrific contract, you know, structure guy. I think he has a real feel for the salary cap and managing the salary cap, which I think Bruce does as well. I don't have a sense that he's got a great talent eye, nor do I have a great sense that he's got a good feel from a public relations standpoint, that sort of thing. Not that that's playing into this decision either. Doug, I would love involved in the quarterback conversation at all times. And, you know, they all love Kyle Smith out there. I just don't have enough information on Kyle

Smith. You could say, though, that if Kyle Smith were so super talented at this point, He's young, he's a young guy, but that maybe there would have been more buzz around him from other organizations. And perhaps there has been. I said Jay's got the best talent evaluating eye in the building, and then I said the following. I said, I think the concern with Jay is, would he do the legwork? Would he be a grinder when it came to, you know, not watching one or two games, but watching double-digit games on a player? Would he be there sun up to sundown and maybe be in the office until two, three in the morning evaluating talent and really grinding it out like a really good evaluator does? This is a tough business, the business of talent evaluation.

It is not for the person that wants to roll in at nine, leave at five with nine floating holidays and an hour lunch every day. It's not that kind of a business. This is an intense time of the year. There was a lot of grinding, long hours leading up to this, managing a scouting group as well. And I said, I don't know that Jay's that guy. I don't know that he's a true grinder. I don't know that he'd put in the legwork. I don't know that he'd really do the due diligence.

I think he's talented in looking at a player. Scott McLuhan has said that multiple times over the years, but that would be my one concern. Some of you said that was a real shot. You took it, Jay Gruden. Okay, yes, it was. It's the way I feel that some others feel. I believe people out there feel that way. But I also should have said the following.

Jay's the head coach of the football team. Jay's the head coach of the football team. That's a full-time job. You know, to be a talent evaluator, to be the lead voice, to be the final say-so on personnel, that's a full-time job too. And very few over the years have been able to do it and coach the football team. Very few. And those that have done it and coached the football team have relied heavily on a staff of scouts and underlings that really set it up and teed it up for the head coach who was also the lead talent evaluator or the final say so in personnel.

So it's not an easy thing for Jay to do. And I'm not sure really that he'd be up to that, nor would most people be up to it. if they are also the coach of the football team. So that is also fair to say, and I should have said that yesterday. One other thing that I didn't talk about yesterday, and the honest answers, I didn't see it. Aaron didn't see it either, and Tommy didn't see it either. It was a report that had come out the night before from Mike Garofalo at the NFL network

that the Redskins were not pursuing Josh Rosen anymore. The quote from NFL network's Mike Garofalo on his podcast or on a podcast that the NFL network produces, I don't know if it's his podcast, was quote, they have done a little bit of homework here, at least tried to figure out what the Cardinals price would be, but they're not actively chasing him. And I don't know that they have, that they have a hard offer on the table, because I know for a fact that they're still going through the motions with the guys in the draft apparently. and they have made no firm decision about are we going to draft a guy or are we going to go the Josh Rosen route or try to trade for someone. I just don't sense it.

I don't really believe that it's a sizzling market for Josh Rosen. So the truth is, is he didn't completely discount it, but his sense is that the Redskins are not actively chasing him or pursuing him. I'll just go with what I said a week and a half or two weeks ago. I believe that the Redskins have definitely inquired about a cost for Josh Rosen. I think they've done a ton of due diligence on Josh Rosen. I don't think they're willing to give up a first round pick for Josh Rosen, but I do think a lesser package would be in play for them. Simultaneously, because the Cardinals aren't necessarily ready to deal him for anything less than a blockbuster package,

the Redskins have been going down the path of interview. all of the quarterbacks in the draft, as they should be. They have a long-term quarterback need. This time next year, as of now, they don't have a quarterback that will be under contract. So of course they are looking in to these quarterbacks. And I said yesterday on the podcast, I believe in order that their quarterback draft board would go Kyler Murray 1, Drew Locke 2, Daniel Jones 3. I'm not sure they're interested in anybody else. And I'm talking primarily for the first two rounds. They may be interested in a Clayton Thorson, you know, in the third or fourth round or somebody down the road. But I'm talking about a real impactful use of a draft choice

on a quarterback where all of us would say they really like this guy. They picked him in the first round and they picked him in the second round and this guy's got a chance to come in and compete for the starting job. We also have what Jay Gruden has said in the past, which is that if we draft a young guy, and he said about Haskins that that's a long-term development guy. He essentially said that Locke is more ready for the NFL game right now. But he also said that, you know, this is a developmental thing. And once you start taking reps away from a potential starter, a veteran starter, you're not doing yourself any good service there.

And that would be potentially a negative impact to the organization. I think Jay is ready to move forward with Keenham and McCoy. and perhaps a young guy taken in the third, fourth, or fifth round that they can have as a developmental project for down the road. And maybe that guy comes in the second round. But I also believe that the Redskins believe, you know, as a group, as they should, that this is a draft that is very good, deep, talent rich, especially at certain positions like pass rusher, which also lines up with a major need that they have, and that they all recognize. that the best way to improve their football team, short-term and even long-term,

is to take the best available player at 15, and that's not going to be a quarterback. So netting it out, do I think they have interest in Josh Rosen? I do, because they've inquired. Now, that doesn't mean that their head-over heels over Josh Rosen, that they're desperate to get Josh Rosen, but I do believe that they have inquired and that they would be willing on a lesser package to acquire Josh

Rosen lesser than a first round pick. Do I think that they are desperate for Josh Rosen? I do not have a sense one way or the other. I would lean towards Garofalo's report that the Redskins aren't desperate for a Josh Rosen, and they're not going to reach for a Josh Rosen via trade. Because they already traded for a quarterback in Case Keenham that they believe will be good enough next year and that they can address the long-term quarterback issue. either in this year's draft after the first round or next year's draft, potentially.

So that's where we are on this. There are going to be reports coming out about Josh Rosen almost every day. And certainly every other day. I missed the one yesterday. I apologize about that, but those are my thoughts. I don't know that Garofalo really told you anything definitive other than, as of now, they're not actively chasing him and that they don't have a hard offer on the table. But they have inquired.

I do believe that to be true. I have talked to people that believe that to be true that would know. The Redskins have inquired about Josh Rosen and the possibility of trading for them, but they are not willing to give up their first round pick. All right word about Window Nation. Window Nation right now has their annual spring cleaning sales event. Are your windows having issues, cracks, hard to open, unusual moisture, or are you just window shopping? If so, call Window Nation today and schedule a free in-home estimate.

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It's the 3 o'clock NBC national TV game. Isabel Kershoudian covers the Caps for the Washington Post, and she joins us right now. I was actually, it's interesting because I read your column late last night or early this morning, I forget. I didn't sleep much. My dog was barking all night. That's not anybody else's problem. It's mine. But I was reading it on my phone late last night. And your opening line of your column struck me because I felt the same way watching it. And I want you to explain it. And Isabel wrote, in every measure but the final score, the Washington Capitals were the lesser team in Thursday night's opening game of their Eastern Conference playoff series against the Carolina Hurricanes. I felt the same way watching the game, but they won the game, and that's hockey, and sometimes that's just hockey in the postseason.

But get into detail as to why you thought they were the lesser team. Well, I actually thought they were the better team, but it's more so how a lot of measures of, you know, measures of, of what makes a good team versus a bad team. And the cap, for whatever reason, always look really bad in those categories. And that's shot metrics. And it's because, you know, they don't put a live puck on that. They love to make skill plays and hold on to the puck

and maybe, you know, dance around the offensive zone for a little while with it. And then, you know, eventually they'll take a shot. And, you know, half of Capital One arena is, like, screaming and pulling their hair out. But it works for them. They're a skilled team. they like to make plays. And sometimes it catches the goalie a little unaware, whereas, you know, putting a million pucks on that can get a goalie hot.

And I think we saw that to a degree in the first period last night where, you know, Peter Morazik doesn't see a shot on goal for like nine minutes, and then he lets in a softie on Nick Baxter for the first goal of the game. You know, a goal he arguably should have had. So, you know, Carolina plays like a style completely contrast to that. where they're all about shot volume, and they put a lot of puck's on that. And, you know, the caps sort of expect that, they know that's coming, and their job is to sort of keep all those shots to the outside,

because then, you know, Bradenholfe is stopping a lot of easy puck, and he's getting hot, he's getting into the game. So, yeah, it's going to be an interesting analytics kind of debate as this series unfold, which way is better. Boy, you know, it's funny, with all of the analytics discussion in sports over many years now. I mean, we're talking about at least a half decade, if not longer, where there are believers and they're non-believers.

But, you know, my position's always been. I love every statistic to look at, every advanced statistic to look at, and, you know, I'll choose which ones I think actually makes sense. But in hockey, with so much activity, with the, we really, many times, the bounce of a puck determining the game. it's amazing that people would rely on it as much as they do in this sport, and I don't know that that's necessarily true. There is one particular thing that I looked at before the series started, because my sense of it is that when the caps are on the power play, that they are lethal, that it just seems to me that they get great opportunities. They're highly skilled.

They've got obviously, you know, Vetchkin, every time he winds up off a pass from Baxter or whomever, it just seems like there's a decent chance to go in. and I think they were a top 10 power play team. I looked at it yesterday, I think percentage-wise, they were 12th or 13th somewhere around there. And it actually surprised me that they aren't even higher-ranked as a power-play team. But last night, they were damn good. And if people take penalties against the caps in this postseason, my sense of it is that they're going to have a significant advantage in these games.

Yeah, you would think so. And honestly, they've had more power play struggles this. year than any other year I've covered them. And, you know, it's a combination of things, zone entry issues, you know, maybe teams game planning a little better, maybe some system tweaks that didn't quite work out, whatever. But what's fun about a playoff series is that, you know, it's a chess match from game to game. Like, Carolina's coaches are smart.

They're going to make adjustments to the Capitol's power play and what they did well, and they're going to tweak their penalty kill before next game to kind of take that away. And Washington's coaches are going to be sitting there thinking, okay, what is Carolina going to try to do to us and how do we prepare for that? So when they try to do this, we can adjust quickly and, you know, mess with them in some other way. So that's like kind of the cat and mouse game of a playoff series. But, yeah, at the end of the day, the Caps Power Play, for years and years, you know, because of the amount of skill it has on there, because of the unique factor of an Alex Ovechkin,

they're going to get their chances, especially when you give them a live opportunity. And, you know, I think backstrom scoring that first power play goal with the back door, it kind of messed up Carolina because then they were like, oh, man, we have to cover this, and they forgot about Ovechkin. Like when he scored his power play goal, he had all tons of time and space, and, you know, it's kind of unusual. And that's what, you know, when the Caps Power Play is doing its job, it will always be able to take advantage of that.

That, you know, if one guy is, you know, covered, they're going to try and expose a different area. That's sort of how it should be with a five on four. You're supposed to have, in any situation, one guy opened who can theoretically take advantage. Yeah, I mean, you know, and not to mention, and you said this, you referred to it earlier, the first goal by Baxter really came. after a stretch where I really thought the first six, seven minutes or so was dominated by Carolina. You know, I don't know how many quality chances they really got, but Backstrom shot was sort of

unexpected, as you sort of implied earlier. And with respect to that conversation about the goalies and seeing more shots versus less shots, you wrote about that in your column saying, you know, if you talk to, you know, Holtby and other goalies, if guys are going to throw pucks at them from all over the ice and they've got 35 to 40 shots. had 29 last night, but they are typically a high-volume shot team, that sometimes it gets a goaltender going confidence-wise. And for Carolina, the first actual quality shot they saw was a surprising quality shot from Baxter.

Yeah, exactly. You know, you kind of get lulled into sleep as a goalie in a way. You know, you ask any goalie, they want to kind of get into the game. They want to see action. You know, and that's, look, Pittsburgh did this to the capitals two years ago where, you know, the caps would have all sorts of zone time. They'd be putting a bunch of pucks on that, on, you know, Murray. You know, eventually they essentially get him hot. And then, you know, Pittsburgh would have one odd man rush and hopefully, you know, hasn't seen any action in five minutes.

And, you know, he's kind of hung out to dry there. you know that the caps sort of shifted their mindset after that series I think and you know I you think back to even that Montreal series in 2010 how many shots they put on halak and how hot he was able to get throughout the course of that series you know when they were upset as the president's trophy team well there's your so you know go ahead there's your contrarian analytic right there you just created the the contrarian hockey analytic which is don't generate too many shot attempts on a goaltender and just wait on the odd man rush and you got a better shot. In all seriousness, did last night's game concern you in any way with respect to the entirety

of the series? The caps need to be better at five on five. They would say that too. You know, really like their two goals came off, you know, power play. And then, you know, one goal that the goaltender should have stopped. Right. you know, you would think most games he will stop that. So, you know, I thought their best chances came kind of at the start of the third period

when, you know, Marazic stopped those two breakaways and then a couple of, you know, good chances from Eller and Connolly. So they need to be probably better at five-on-five to generate more offensive zone time. It's not the shot ticker they care about, but more so how often they have the puck and how they're able to kind of wear down, you know, the opposition by, you know, some of the offensive zone cycle time. So I think they may be better in that respect, but at the end of the day, they have more offensive talent in their lineup.

They have more talent in general in their lineup than the hurricanes. And it's possible we will see more games like this where Carolina does a lot, but they're not able to finish because they're still kind of behind Washington in that sense. Yeah, those opportunities early in the third would have put the game away. They didn't get them to go. a sudden it's a 3-2 game, and I think they were really sweating it at that point the rest of the way. There were two power play opportunities the hurricanes had down 3-2, and then they pulled the goaltender and had a two-man advantage there for 50 seconds or so before the empty netter at the end.

By the way, just as an aside, how about in the other division where the two top seeds have both lost at home in the first two games in game ones of those series, Toronto beat Boston, Tampa, Boston game won the other night to Columbus, and the two really, well, the prohibitive favorite in Tampa, and the second favorite in the east are both down in their respective series. I mean, I know it's a long grind, best out of seven, and nobody's picking Columbus to win the best of seven at this point, but I think Toronto has a good shot against Boston. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that Toronto, Boston was always going to be kind of a death match. You know, those are two really good teams, and just how the playoff format is. It's kind of unfortunate they have to play each other in the first round.

But, you know, you think back to the caps last year, I think they lost three out of four game one. So, you know, game one doesn't always mean a whole lot. You know, especially home ice also doesn't mean a whole lot of the sound. So, you know, I expect Tampa to respond, but Columbus always was a pretty sneaky, dangerous team. You know, they were the prototypical getting hot, you know, going into the playoffs. You know, they added some really good pieces at the trade deadline. I think they're a lot better than their seed, and I think they would be favored in pretty much any other series other than TIPA.

Great job, Isabel. I appreciate it, especially on short turnaround after reading your story. I appreciate you jumping on real quickly. Follow Isabel on Twitter at I-Kershutian. and it's K-H-U-R-S-H-U-D-Y-A-N. Isabelle's been doing a great job covering the Caps for a few years now. I appreciate the time. Hope we can do it again soon.

All right, thanks, Kevin. Isabelle was presented by Mama Lucia restaurants. All of our Caps segments during the Caps postseason are brought to you by Mama Lucia. And right now, Mama Lucia has got a Caps hockey special. It includes a chicken parmesan dinner and a large pizza. It's priced usually at $30, but you can use my promo code and get $10 off. My promo code is Kevin Caps, all lowercase, K-E-V-I-N-C-A-P-S. You can order online for pickup or delivery at mamalucia restaurants.com.

Again, put in my promo code, lowercase Kevin Caps, to get $10 off, you'll pay $20 for a chicken parmesan dinner and a large pizza. during the Caps postseason run, and again, whether it's picked up or delivered, go to Mamalachia Restaurants.com. My promo code, Kevin Caps. All right, let's bring in Mike Wilbon, who is out in Southern California, and he will be covering, I believe you said you're going to cover the Warriors' first round series. You'll be heading to Oakland for tomorrow, right?

I am. I'm going to do game one, Kevin, and then we see, we reassess. And, you know, if, let's face it, if the Warriors lose, a game in the first round, people are going to say, oh, that becomes the series. And, of course, if they lost game one, you sort of stay with it. But I don't think anybody's expecting that. But, yeah, I'll start there. And, you know, the first round is a lot of hopping around.

But you know what? I mean, the second round, we're looking at Houston and Golden State. Exactly. I'm actually excited about that. And we'll get into each of these series. but I really want OKC to make a run, so I was thrilled to see them get the six and be out of the Houston Golden State side of the draw.

But I did want to ask you something before we get into each of these series and getting your thoughts on them. This is a weird NBA season. You know I love the NBA, and I'm disappointed that the Wizards had the season they had. I really enjoyed them being in the playoffs for four of the previous five years.

It was good to have it. team, you know, participating. But I thought it was a weird year in that, you know, you had the stuff, you know, with Kyrie for a while, and then LeBron, obviously, and then the Warriors had some nights that were head scratching. And there were just, you know, there were moments during the season where it seemed like, man, is something wrong with Golden State? What's wrong with Boston? And that there was always something wrong with a team. And I'm wondering if you believe that to be true and if it's impacted the way people are viewing this season and now the postseason as we roll into it?

I don't think, I think it increases interest because you've got, at the heart of what you just said, you're talking about two players, essentially, not teams. You're talking about Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant and their chronic unhappiness. Right. Or what appears to be that. So I don't think you're talking about the teams. I mean, Clay Thompson and Steph, the splash, but. brothers and Steve Kerr and the rest of the Celtics, they're not chronically unhappy, it's those

two. And it did provide a certain melodrama to the season. Look, the NBA gives us melodrama every year. It gives us melodrama like Northern League. That's not the theme. That's not the personality of the NFL. It's not the personality of Major League Baseball. And certainly not the personality of the NHL.

That's the NBA, but that's why the personalities are larger. I mean, those are the largest personalities we have, you know, with apologies to Tom Brady or, you know, they have to think two or three football players. And not every year. But this is the personality of the NBA, that you know these people. You know whether they're, you know, a good mood or not. And so I think that's just the context in which this league operates now. And I think it increases interest.

And particularly for younger viewers, Kevin, who we still have, and we don't know how what their viewing habits are going to be into their 20s and 30s. We're talking about teenagers. And you and I've had this discussion before. You're a few years ahead of it with me, but we both have driven boys around and SUVs and in the back of cars. They're not talking about the NFL. No, they're not.

They talk about the NBA. They talk about the NBA. They talk about soccer. But they're not talking about the NFL. doesn't mean they won't get there. They may fall in line just like previous generations, but they may not. You know, really in the past, my boys, everybody's into fantasy football. So they're talking about the NFL, but I always compared it to college basketball.

And my boys love college basketball because of my love for Maryland basketball. But most of the conversations during basketball season, when I'm in, you know, an SUV, trucking around, you know, kids from game to game or when I was in that in that mode was about NBA players. And, you know, it really is, you mentioned the difference between the NBA and the NFL. There's one major inherent difference that'll never change. And that is, it's just like what tennis and golf were, right? It's like there's no uniform. There's no, there's no helmet. We know their faces. The NFL, there's a reason NBA players, and tennis players and golfers over the years have been the highest endorsed athletes

is because we know what they look like. That's right. And you know, it's interesting, we had a little test in our house recently. Not too long ago. Maybe it was at the end of the NFL season. I said to my wife, who has been a season ticket holder,

first of all, I've gone to risk in games her entire life. With her father first and most importantly. And then, you know, we had those club seats at FedEx Field or whatever it's called for 15 years. Right. And I said to her,

she said she didn't know there was somebody there was some NFL players she said come on you you can name 15 quarterbacks in the NFL she goes no I can't and Matthew and I started challenging her about knowing 15 quarterbacks and she couldn't get to 15

she got to like six I mean it's the season ticket holder Kevin for 30 years six quarterbacks I mean six but then I but then I had to admit and look you know I mean there was a stretch of which I went to, I think I covered 96 consecutive Redskin games, I think.

Which is what, that's like what? 60, oh, I know, yeah, that was 96 consecutive road games for me. I don't know. I could not identify more than three red skin faces at this point in my life. I'm a sports writer still. I do something in sports media, but I'm not a sports writer anymore. And this is what, you know, this is what the NFL, and Major League Baseball are sort of fighting now.

This is why they have to come up with a fraudulent commercial with Mike Trout and Oliver, Oliver Luck, Andrew Luck. They have to come up with a phony, baloney commercial with them doing a disco dance because no one knows who they are. People don't know Mike Trout. So what does the NFL do about that? I mean, what does Major League Baseball do about that? They got to come up with the way to market.

They were upset with him. Remember a year ago they were upset? But they said, well, Mike Trow doesn't want to do enough stuff to make himself known. What? That's not a problem you and I grew up with with the great baseball players of our time. And maybe it's because their faces were on bubblegum and trading cards, and it was a different from world. But that's something that even, you know, the most popular people,

not Tom Brady, not the top, I guess I'd say 15 quarterbacks. I don't know if, I don't know if what's the kid who's going to be traded away from Arizona. Josh Rosen. I don't think I would know Josh Rosen. I have a place in Arizona. I don't think I would know him. You know what? You know I love you so much. And one of my favorite little lines here already in these 10 minutes that we've been talking was wherever they play. What is it called FedEx Field? Come on. You know it's FedEx Field? You know what? I started thinking about Capital One. And I'm like, wait a minute, these things change names every couple of years. All stadiums don't. They don't. We all know you so well. I might go to Verizon Center and you'll laugh. I might go back.

I might get in a way back machine to say Verizon. MCI. That would take it even further back, wouldn't it? I know. But we all know you and we follow you and we watch you and we read you and the whole thing. And you love the NBA. And you're not wrong. And it's what we've been talking about to a certain extent is that the NBA players are all known by face.

They are. They're stars. It's a star first league. It's not a team first league. It's not a coach first league. It is a star-based league, and it's always been that way. And the stars are bigger than they've ever been before. One of the biggest stars of my teenage years and my all-time number one.

We can talk Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe. But my all-time number one was magic. And so this week, you know, it's not that I was upset by it because I'm not into Magic, the team executive. I was into Magic the player. but I've always loved and followed magic. And I was blown away, I wasn't blown away that he ended up leaving, but the way he left was disappointing to me. And I know that it's magic and I know that he'll be forgiven,

but I thought it was unprofessional. And I wanted to find out from you, number one, why did he leave? And number two, do you feel the same way that it was just an odd circumstance in the way he did it? Odd, yes, shocking yes. Of course, yeah. Kevin, I was a dullest. coming out to L.A. anyway, because I had a scheduled quickly

a sit down interview with Doc Rivers, which I did yesterday, and we should air tomorrow on ABC and the SPN, and I was on the way to do that. So I'm walking onto the ramp at 10 p.m. on a 1015 flight out of Dallas, and all of a

sudden, my phone just starts blowing up. It's 1015. 9.45, because of half an hour, get early, getting on the flight, and I looked down on one of the calls from Neville, my dear friend Neville Waters, and I just pick up the phone, I go, what? And he's like, you don't know, do you? And I go, know what?

He said, Magic just quit like 10 seconds ago. Shocking, shocking. So why? Because just the reason he said. Magic is not disingenuous. Magic tells you what's on to his mind. This is a guy who didn't hide from cameras when he announced he was HIV-positive. So he's not going to hire from cameras and reporters when there's something that he just feels.

he has to do, he wasn't happy. He was unhappy. He didn't like a lot of the things. He didn't, he didn't have the appetite for the things you have to do to be a successful executive. Look, one of them, the tampering stuff drove him crazy. Now, that I knew about. Some of the other stuff, I'm sure I still don't know about yet. I will know about that because I, you know, I mean, imagine I've been close for 20 years and worked together for a good, chunk of that, and I've known it for 40. We know each other our entire adult lives. And I know about one of these things, and that's the tampering stuff. And I said this to Adam Silver during All-Star weekend in Charlotte in February, when the league has a rule that

muzzles put the muzzle on Jerry West, Larry Bird, Irvin Johnson, Michael Jordan, it's a bad rule. It's a stupid rule. It's counterproductive. It hurts the industry. You want to hear what those people have to say about every single thing that affects basketball. And they can't talk about it. They can't say in somebody's name. I did a Q&A with Michael Jordan during All-Star Weekend, which wasn't for a publication or broadcast. It was just for the Tech Summit and for All-Star Tour to kickoff All-Star Weekend.

And I had to craft the questions so that Jordan wouldn't have to say anybody's next. name. This is a dumb rule. And it's amazing that people put up with it, that patrons and fans and sponsors put up with this stupid rule. That has the four, I mean, can you get more iconic than those people? Okay, yeah, Jabbar, Russell, and, you know, a couple other people, Oscar. But you're taking four people and saying,

you can never talk publicly about art product. This is dumb. You know what? Magic hates it. He would flown it anyway. He would do it, and he'd get fined. And so he hated it. And it just, it was one of the things, not, not, I'm not saying it was a tipping point.

It was one of the things about this job he hated. And I suspect that he hated the grind. I suspect, I haven't talked to him at Lantiette about this stuff. But I, you know, you just look at his interview with Rachel Nichols that night. He told you everything he, the reason he quit. There was nothing hidden that we know, maybe something will come out that we, that we don't know now. But I think by and large, I think overwhelmingly he did not like what he was doing.

You know, I really, you've brought something up, and I haven't really ever thought about it. But I think what you're saying is it's stupid that people like Magic who are working for a team can't say offhandedly, good God, Anthony Davis is a badass. He can play. I mean, there's a big difference between. that and then calling up Anthony Davis and saying, hey, you're interested in coming here, I'm going to try to deal for you. Right. They're not the same thing. Can you imagine if we couldn't go to Hank Aaron and Willie Mays and Ted Williams when he was

alive and talk about these people, talk about the players? Right. Yeah. It's the dumbest thing the NBA engages in. And it hurts the product. And it drives the, again, not the tipping point. I'm not suggesting that. But Magic wants to. be magic. And to be that, he realized he wasn't doing the things that he wanted to do. And magic created an empire, a business empire, his second life that he wasn't even tending to in the same way. He talked about that with Serena Williams calling him and wanting him to be on her board. And that was another thing that made him realize, wait a minute, I'm doing something that's

important. He wasn't allowed to be on her board? No, it wasn't. He just, he didn't have time. He couldn't do it. Right. Was any part of it, the fact that he wasn't successful? I don't know. I mean, Magic's not afraid to fail at stuff. We've seen it. We saw it with a television show. Right. I mean, he doesn't really hide from challenges. Some people don't do stuff. They're not going to be great at. And then here's a guy who says, okay, I'm going to give us a shot. It may not work. I mean, he's had public failures. He's had obviously great public successes. But I don't So it would have been easier to justify if the Lakers were in the saying if he wasn't happy, but they were in the playoffs right now? Sure it would.

Last question on this, and then I want to get to the playoffs. I started off by saying to you, I didn't, as a magic fan, as a lifelong magic fan, I just, I don't like when people leave in that way. The perception to me, and maybe not to everybody, is that, He essentially, you know, went to the media instead of going to Jeannie Bus, you know, before the final game had been played. I mean, he could have waited until after the season was completely over. And perhaps no one, you know, in the organization has a problem with it, and I'm overreacting to it. But I just personally, maybe it's cool, feel there's a right way to do something.

There's a wrong way to do it. And I thought that it was unprofessional. And that's a perfectly fair, perfectly fair criticism, Kevin, perfectly fair. We just talked about this, though. You know the NBA is not like other animals. Remember the divorce between Michael Jordan and the wizard? Sure. Yeah, there goes the car.

You know, I think, again, I think that international basketball, which is what we're talking about, at the highest level of international soccer, they're different. Look at some of the drama with coaches and people who come and go and international soccer. These are the most famous athletes, those two, those two sports. I don't spend a lot of time. I mean, again, I don't disagree with you. Does it bother me?

No. I mean, one, because I know the relationship between Irvin and Jeannie Bus. Look, I was working with Magic on television every week when Jeannie Bus came and took him from us. I was there. I'm sitting in there with Magic in the war room watching games about to go on the air, and he says, I got to tell Jeannie Bus something. tomorrow i gotta tell i gotta okay i mean you know i mean this is this these are the most famous

people in the world and they don't live their lives like we do and it's not like insubordination no no and that that would be exactly but i but your point is not wrong it isn't wrong it's perfectly legit but do i like do i think about that in the examination of this whole episode that this plan out here in southern california i not even like 30 seconds for me personally And maybe, look, I'm biased. I'm not going to, I can't observe magic from a distance. I mean, my first interactions with him were when I was a junior at Northwestern, covering the Big Ten for the daily Northwestern,

and Magic was a freshman at Michigan State. That's, that's 40 years ago. So, and again, we've worked together. I mean, we're, you know, I mean, I didn't take the job I have without calling Magic first and leaving the Washington Post. I'm not going to pretend I'm like distant and biased, unbiased. By the way, when you interviewed him for the first time, was he a freshman at Michigan State?

Yes. So did he have that charisma? Did he have that? Did you know, did you feel that he was a star? I called, my brother, Madonna and I have the thing where he remembers he texted me recently, and he said that I said to him after the first, time I was around him in most of the season watching him, I said he's going to be the greatest player in the history of the NBA.

And my brother goes, you're on drugs. What are you talking about? And I said, this guy's going to be the biggest star and the greatest player in history of the league. And I don't know. I got plenty of gotten wrong. But that one was, you know, that jumped out of the building. You know, one of my favorite stories about magic as a recruited high school players,

you know, everybody was on him, Indiana, UCLA. all the biggies were on him. And the only coach to tell him and to have the vision for this that he could play point guard at his college team was Judd Heathcote. He was the only one. Everybody else said, no, you're a forward. There's no such thing as a six-eighth, six-nine point guard. That was a visionary. Yeah, he was.

That's right. He was. And, you know, as being a huge basketball fan my entire life, I do remember, you know, the buzz about this six-foot-eight, nine-inch, point guard. It was so unheard of it. Well, the players in Northwestern told me about it. Rod Robertson told me about Magic. He was the first person. He was the first person. He was Rugg grew up at Elkhart, Indiana. And so, you know, he was our starting shooting guard. But those guys that played against each other, obviously, Michigan and Indiana. And he said, you know about Magic Johnson, right? And I said, yeah, I mean, I know his name. And he can't really be a point. He said,

no, no, no, he's a point guard. That's what he does. And he's the greatest pastor anybody's ever seen. And you heard. heard this stuff back then. It was just word of mouth. There was no, you know, we didn't have what we have now. We know what Zion's every move is by the time he signs with a school sign. No, right. You're right. It was a totally different world. Let's get to these series. All right, and let's start in the West. Is it, is, can anybody beat Golden State in the best of seven, despite at times what we saw this year, which was maybe perhaps for the lack of a better description, just disinterest.

It was. It was boredom. Yeah, Houston can beat them. I'm not saying Houston will beat them, but the Rockets, look, the Rockets beat them last year through six games, and they couldn't get the they couldn't get the fourth game because they were leading three-two, I guess they beat them through five, because they, you know, because the best, the most important player on the Rockets, Chris Paul, and he's still the most important, was injured. Not the best. We know James Harden's the best. I just filled out my ballot at about 2 a.m. and I took Harden over onto the Kumpo and no matter who I voted for

I was going to have second thoughts I'll have it until this is announced but and I think it'll be on to Kumpo from just the people I'm listening to but anyway Chris Paul is the most important player on that team and yeah they can beat them

I don't think I don't know if you asked you made me bet right now a place of bet I'll probably go with Golden State but I understand that Houston can beat them I don't think anybody else can beat the Warriors. Milwaukee and Denver, they're not ready for that yet.

You have to, I mean, people aren't paying attention if they think that. You have to suffer in the NBA. Suffer. Always. I mean, the only person who didn't suffer in the history of the NBA is magic. Everybody else suffered as a young player. And you got, you get beat. I don't care who you are.

So I think that, you know, I think that they got Denver and Milwaukee got some suffering to do. you know, in their own conferences before they get that far. But we'll see if that trend. It's not just a trend, it's the history of the league. That is true. Let's see if the history holds. Right, that is true.

I mean, Bird won it in the second year, so you could put him into the same category. Was it the second year? I think it was the second year, because Magic won as a rookie. They lost like in a conference finals or something. Yeah, because Magic beat the Sixers that first year in 80, and then 81 Boston beat Houston.

Yeah. When Magic was, you know, injured, came back and lost in that best of three miniseries. to Moses, right? Moses and the Rockets. Yes, absolutely. But, yeah, I mean, Houston would be the one team then. In the West that you would say, all right, they suffered. They had them on the hook a year ago, and maybe this is the year they get by.

In the other series, I personally think that I just love Russell Westbrook, and I know that that's a flawed rooting for sometimes, but I thought watching them during the course of the year that Paul George was the best teammate and the best fit for him that I've seen. And I like their team in general, but there's some nights you watch them and it's the same thing. You know, last minute, Westbrook has two key turnovers after, you know, a massive triple double and they lose. But I do like their chances to win in this first round against Portland and then potentially, you know, against Denver in a second round to get to the Western Conference finals. Do you agree? Yes. I think anybody in the West can.

win two rounds except the clippers because the clippers get the warriors right if you the clippers have finished seventh i'd like the clippers to beat denver again denver's done no suffering um they haven't had that mike i think the spurs i think the spurs can beat the nuggets i think the spurs will beat denver yeah and i'm not hating on denver i think i had um their coach is my second or third pick i guess i had boonhozer is my second pick after doc rivers for coach of the year and yeah i'm with you kevin any of those teams can win two series or lose. Look, I can see Portland beating, especially with McCone back, and I know that look, they've

lost their big man. NERCHAGICS, yeah. And losing NERCHA is a big deal, but they also got, and his cancer. Talk about an insurance policy that is coming, that can be very valuable. And his cancer can rebound, I mean, he can get you 15. And he can also score. Now, he doesn't play the kind of defense that NERCHA did, but Portland is not decimated in a way by that injury in terms strategically,

like they would be if they didn't have it in his canter. And so I think that, yes, OKC, when the Warriors were in Washington this year, I spent a lot of time with the guys that day and night. And at the time, their opinion was that OKC was the team that they had an eye on. That was the team. But, you know, it was probably one of those stretches, like you mentioned, that OKC was playing really well. Right.

And then they have some stretches where they don't, and you get caught in one of those bad stretches, and I don't know what they're in now. They won a couple of games at the end that's what they get out of. Oh, I think they won four or five in a row in the season. Yeah, after they had a bad stretch. Yes, they did. So I don't know if the Warriors still feel that way about, I'll find out tomorrow I'm going to be in Oakland for game one.

So I'm interested to find out just sort of on the QT, who those guys think, you know, who were they looking at thinking, okay, they got our attention. I know that was OKC whenever the Warriors were in Washington. I suspect it's Houston again. I mean, Houston won, I mean, the Rockets won 16 out of 18 before the last couple days of the season. So that's a stress that should get anybody's attention. There was something, and I don't know where this came from. It may have come from Rachel's show, and I may have been watching it the other day,

about the overrated NBA player poll, and it was Westbrook and Dremont Green. By the way, I don't consider Draymond Green to be overrated. Not at all. I consider him to be underrated. That's crazy to me. I mean, he's a second round pick. But beyond that, do you think that most people do look at Westbrook and say he compiles a lot of numbers, but ultimately you can't win with him?

I think it's less that now. I think there's an admiration for him because, I mean, three straight seasons of a triple double. If it was so important once that we chronicled it and followed it, like, obsessively, once the first time. You mean to tell me three times is bad? And this is what numbers have done to sports. We can be overly impressed by them. We can get tired of feats and performances

because we get tired of the number recitation. And, you know, I think Westbrook, he's a much better teammate. You talk about a great teammate. Westbrook's passing now, Kevin, it is not simply a selfish thing. I can't get a shot, therefore, I'm going to pass to you, which is what James Harden's passing is.

Russell Westbrook is now creating teammates. I mean, Grant, the Grant kid, he's created by Russell Westbrook. I'm not saying he's not an improved player because he is, but Westbrook, I mean, he has improved that kid. He's improved Hunter. I mean, Westbrook is a different player offensively. Now, the tough thing is, you get older, you're not going to be able to physically do some of the same things at 30, 31 years old going forward. But, man, Westbrook, to me, is a better player than he was

with Durant. In terms of, I'm sorry, better teammate, and better offensive player, more willing passer, more creative passer, more team first passer. He wasn't those things four years ago. And so I'm more impressed by Westbrook in some ways than I was when he was with Durant. I agree with you. I also think he is much more, and you'll see it, you know, this isn't always a setup thing, but he's much more willing to defer to George than I think anybody that he's played with. Yeah, because he realizes, he understands how they have to win. Yeah. Those two guys have to be fully engaged every night. They have to be great every night. And they've got to be great at both ends, and certainly Paul George is great at both ends. And he was, he was third in my MVP vote, Kevin,

um, after Hardin and Ante Cumpo. I had, I had Paul George third. I'm naming sure had at four. I thought maybe I had Steph Curry. No, I had, I had Jokic. I did. Yokic 4th. And I think that's Jeff Curry 50th of a top 5. But yeah, but those guys, I mean, I'm interested to see. But I just think that the OKC Portland series is going to be a six or seven game series. And I don't know which way it's going to turn. All right.

Before the NBA season started, I remember this conversation specifically with a few people, but especially you. And I think we both agreed that to win a title, you have to have a top five player. And we both agreed that Kauai Leonard was a top five player. So by default, do you, do you, or I mean, a Tenacombo obviously is a top five player now. And, you know, Kyrie Irving at times is certainly a top 10 player at times offensively, but is it Toronto or Milwaukee out of the east,

or do you think that Boston will get it together? You know, it's interesting because now one of the people I sit with and watch games and listen to and work with is Paul Pierce. And Paul Pierce, you know, is one of the, Paul's like, they'll be fine. And there are, you know, there are times there's certainly this year where he was... In talking about what?

In talking about the Celtics? Talking about his old franchise, yeah. And, you know, I don't know that. I mean, we've been waiting on them all year. I tell you what, from Milwaukee for me, it has nothing to do with Anto de Krupp or it has to do with Malcolm Brogden.

Yeah. Like, when is he going to get back and what are you going to be like? He's got to be there. He's got to be there. Like the two guys that their franchise hinges on, this postseason the next couple of weeks were C.J. McCollum, who did get back, and Malcolm Brogden, who's not back yet. I don't see Milwaukee beat Toronto without Brockton.

Brogden, I think, at times, is the second most important player on that team. So, I mean, I could see Milwaukee getting to the finals. If they get him for two series and they can beat Toronto and play against Golden State or whomever they're in the West or Houston, you know, I could see Milwaukee getting to the finals and maybe doing okay. I don't see them winning this year. But I think that Brogden, how about that? The year for Virginia continues.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think he's scheduled to miss the first round series, which they're not going to need him to beat Detroit. They shouldn't. They should not need him against, you know. Who's a... Detroit. Detroit.

They shouldn't need him against him. They should be able to get through that, yeah. Yeah, so I, you know, last year, remember how the Sixers were rolling into the postseason and a lot of people like their chances. I don't necessarily compare the two teams in terms of strengths, weaknesses, etc. But Milwaukee's got a lot of the same thing that I think a lot of people are enamored with them right now. And they do have an uncheckable player right now. There are several in the NBA, and he's one of them.

But I'm with you. I think Toronto somehow, a team with some experience. And remember, the last time Leonard really had a legitimate chance, he got hurt. You know, he got hurt in that series. against Golden State Warrior in Oakland by 25 at half time of game one. And hurt his ankle. Unbelievable. And got hurt.

Why am I forgetting the Golden State Center who basically contributed? No, it was because he was on the, wasn't he on, he would. Oh, oh, oh, what's the name? Oh, God, he's still in the league and he hurt a lot of people. Yeah. People listening to this right now. I'll get it here before we go. All right.

Yeah, it'll dawn on me. You know, the last thing, so you believe Golden State and, I mean, ultimately you think Houston's got a chance, but you've got Golden State against whom? Well, I can't separate the four. I'm okay picking Philly, actually. I'm okay picking Philadelphia, and I understand that they don't have the deep bench that other teams have. But I also think you shouldn't need it in the seven-game series. Petulia. Pachulia. Zaza-Pachulia, yeah. I don't think you should, I don't want to treat the bench like Mike Dan Tony,

where sometimes he just doesn't go to. And he's playing six and seven guys, and the Warriors are playing 10. I don't like that, as much as I like a lot of things about Mike. But, man, Philly, Philly Scott, look, you can make the argument that Embed is the second best player in the East. It's easy to make the argument. And he puts up, I know that Ante Coupo puts up huge numbers against Philly, but look at Embedd's numbers against Milwaukee. I mean, it's like 35 and

17. I mean, nobody's embarrassed by those numbers. The Antipuombo numbers look wilt-like. But you know, with Embed and Simmons and Butler and Tobias Harris and J.J. Reddick, I mean, that

I'd make the argument that that's the second best starting five in the playoffs after Golden State. The Philly starting five. and, you know, that's, there's something to be said for that. Yeah,

and those guys have all suffered individually. They haven't suffered collectively, but they've all been, they've all had their hearts crushed in the playoffs. Jimmy Butler, certainly by LeBron. The other thing is, you know,

Butler, Butler is a key guy in this to me because Jimmy Butler has had more regular season of success. He's had more chances. He's had more bats against LeBron than anybody. Right. And he's done well. You know, Jimmy Butler's record against LeBron

something like 29 and 28. It's unbelievably good. And he understands what that, there's value in that going into the playoffs against Boston or Toronto or Milwaukee, whoever they get in stuff after the first round. So I don't know, I can't separate the top four. If you made me,

I might lean a little bit toward Philly because of those sort of intangible. Look. Maybe those are tangibles, actually. Jimmy Butler, you know, had them on the, you know, on the precipice of upsetting Boston a few years ago. And that series turned when they lost Rondo, right? That's right. They were up too low.

Yeah. And that changed the franchise. Yeah. All right. Last thing. I had Legler on the show the other day. And, you know, we were talking about Ernie Grunfeld and the Wizards. And I said to him, and he agreed, but he also said, you know, you still have to be good at evaluating college talent, et cetera. But I'm like, look, in this league, it's different. different than any other. If you don't have a top five player, you've got no shot to win at all, and everybody else has essentially got, you know, the realistic expectations are to win a couple of playoff series. And maybe if LeBron's not in your conference for the last 10 years or if the

Warriors aren't in your conference for the last five, you try to get to the conference finals. And to do that, you know, you've got to get lucky. Like, it's not if Grunfeld had stuck around one more year and the Wizards won the lottery and they drafted Zion Williamson and Zion Williamson turned into a top five player in five years, he'd look great. But my point was, and it's a long way of getting to, I mean, I'm fine with Ernie Grunfeld being gone, but whoever replaces him still has to get lucky. Yeah, but you've got to be good, too. Look at two of those players we've been talking about, Kevin, and so one of them is Kauai

Leonard. I know. I know. He had a shot at Kauai Lennard. He's got a shot at Kaui Lennard, and he had one of the time. So probably, so two of the top five players, okay, so I didn't have Kauai Lenned on my first team. I had them like six, five, two of my top six players, as I see. Are guys who were not top picks or top three picks or any of that?

And so you can do this. Player development is still unbelievably important in getting a player who can be that. So who in this draft is not going to be Zion, but it's going to be, you know, turn into one of the players. Steph Curry. Yeah. He's going to turn into. He wasn't sure. I mean, you know, how many players we're talking about in the league right now who are top five players who weren't top five players coming out of college?

The point is you can get them. I understand that. You got to draft it. You got to be. And here's the thing. Here's the thing I'm finding out that peeped about Ernie. What are you? You know, Ernie did not hit the wrong.

road with the same energy colleagues, peers are telling me. And that, you know, that can lead to some safe picks and some, you know, kind of lazy picks. That can lead to that. That's fair. People who are out there doing it, I mean, the Wizards, you know, didn't have that. And so either you need to rely on your guys, on your scouts, on your lie lie lie And by the way, the other thing I'm hearing is he's got great lie on.

He didn't rely on. He's had great lie on. And he did not rely on them. He would walk in the room and trump the pick, but he hadn't, he had, he personally, look, I just, I've seen Jerry West on the road. Jerry West is 80. He's on the road, Kevin. It's great.

When you walk into a place, you know how cool it is to walk in and like, everybody's there for the same purpose? Jerry West walks in the room at this stage. And, first of all, he looks like he's 60. Jerry West walks in wearing brioni, and he's there for the same purpose. And you just turn to each other. Are you kidding me? Because Jerry West is coming to, he wants to see John Moran.

Or he wants to see whomever it is. This is, this is, I mean, this is one of the things I'm hearing. I'm not reporting it. I haven't talked to Ernie. I don't know what his side of that is. but it's one of the things that I'm hearing, and I'm just telling you, being on the road is one of those things.

You get to hear what people think about situations and people and clubs and what the – and Ernie's also done – you know, there's a great player development job in Bradley Beal. Because Bradley Bill, you want to talk about a guy people are tampering for right now? They're tampering for Bradley Beal, because the great teams want him.

So that's to the Wizards credit. that he was a developed player. Where did Bradley go in the draft? He was number three overall, 2012. Okay, okay. Then they, I didn't know he was the highest three. Okay, so fine. The Wizards, but they got it right.

They knew they got that pick right, and he developed wonderfully, and people love him to the point of, again, people trying to get in touch with Bradley Beal. Say, you want to come here? And so, you know, I mean, it can be done, and that he's done it, but obviously not enough in the Wall injury. Talk about the disappointment of the season.

I mean, John Wall, a guy who's, I love John Wall. I'm higher on John Wall than a lot of people in town now. I know there's disappointment, the injuries. I know. I get it. Overweight. I get all that stuff. John, man, the mistake that was made was not resigning Paul Pierce, period.

This is not opinion. This is a mistake. They didn't resign Paul. Paul Pierce, because they didn't want to give him $4 million for a second year or whatever it was, or five or eight. I don't care what it was. Paul Pierce would have stayed with the Wizards. How do I know?

Because he told me. Paul Pierce on that same team that he came back to that he helped. It would have been a difference. John Waltz would have been a veteran player on that team. He should never have been the vet. Paul Pierce was happy to be the vet. He was still productive as the vet, and it changed the arc of the team. Well, originally, Michael.

originally, Mike, what changed the arc of the team, and it was very underrated at the time, but it was something I always felt in the moment. I get a lot wrong. But I thought the pipe dream of KD and 16 and not resigning a guy like Trevor Arisa, who was your best defender, was a corner three-point shooter, was a leader that gave you what Pierce, what you're talking about with Pierce, gave you the same kind of thing that that was a massive mistake. They weren't going to get Kevin Durant. They weren't even in the end. They didn't have the intel to get close to get a conversation with Kevin Durant. So, yes, okay,

so let's go in combo with what you and I are talking about, because both of those are, you know, part of the same piece. That the Wizards were in position to go to the conference finals the next year. And they blew it. And that rests with the person who's running the operation day to day. It's fair. And not, and the lieutenant, you know, did not necessarily agree with him.

And I know, again, I'm working with Paul. I know, you know how Paul Pierce Hill still has great interest in the Wizards when Bill and Waller playing. And I just look at him. We're sitting there watching games. I go, you love this day. He goes, hell yeah, I loved it. Because you know what? He could challenge them.

He challenged him in practice. He challenged him in games. He told them to shut up and take a nap. That's what veterans do in that league. Right. And they, because they didn't want to pay him $5 million? And you know what, Mike, too? I think this is true.

And I know what you said about Beal. But I think Beal and Wall have been, I'm not saying off the court. They've never been issues off the court. But I think they've been immature players. I think. But yeah, but they don't, yes, because of what we're talking about. Yeah, no, I understand that. If you've got a reason and here's uninterrupted, it brings them along.

That's how guys learn how to play in this league. Hell, apparently, Neyne was one of the guys that would tell them both to shut the hell up and do. And you talk about a tough guy. Right. You talk about a tough guy. So re-configure and reimagine where they would have been in the critical juncture for the franchise with those three guys sticking around, even if you had to pay into the luxury.

I don't know what the specific money concerns were, but I just know that those guys weren't looking to leave. You know, the Ernie information is interesting, because it sort of goes hand in hand with the way he's drafted over the years, which has been measurables. Like he's been enamored with talent, but the due diligence on what kind of person or competitor these guys have been has always been weak. You know, going back, you know, you can go back to all of these, you know, whether it's Blatch or Nick Young or Javale McGee, you know, measurable.

Like, who looked the part more than McGee did? Who looked apart more than Blatch did? And Vesley, Vesley looked apart. But he. But he. I know. And none of them ever worked for them. Right.

You know, even McGee's working out for somebody else. Right. But not at the way. And it's, it's, you know, I, you know, I haven't been in Washington much this spring because I get on the road and do this. And part of me is glad because I know and like and respect Ernie. I've known him my whole career covering basketball. And he's had some successes. Look, Ernie, Ernie was a GM for, what, 30 consecutive years or something like that?

Yeah. It means that people had great respect for him, only at the highest levels. It means he did a really good job in a lot of ways. But I feel bad Where's the franchise going now? I don't know. I don't know. Well, what you said, it might be, you know, about his lieutenants.

Maybe Tommy Shepard's got a really good chance to get this job. Yeah, and again, I haven't been, you know, out here, out in the rest of the world where people are playing. The questions wind up being, hey, hey, what's going on back in your town? What's going on back in Washington? I just go, I don't know. I have no idea. All right. I appreciate it.

I got to call you and find out the real scuttle here. I got to call you back off the air because you know what's going on. I haven't paid attention. They're talking Tim Connolly in Denver because he's from here and Tommy Shepard. But to your point, it's like they're so irrelevant right now. I mean, I'm not really into it. I love the NBA playoffs. They start tomorrow.

And unfortunately, it's the first weekend of the – the first weekend is also matching up with the Masters this year. Yeah, but it's great. I mean, get two TVs. I know you've got multiple TVs, Kevin. I know you – you're not like Cornheiser. I know you can do this. Well, I also stay up a little bit later.

All right. Thanks for getting up in doing this. I really appreciate it. This is good. You kept me from missing a flight this morning. I might have overslept. I was up with that ballot until the wee hours. All right. And I got to get to, I got to get to Oakland.

So I appreciate it. You know, I love talking with you about this stuff every year like we used to do. And I appreciate it so much. And it'll be interesting to see the MVP vote. I think you're right. I think it's going to be the Greek freak. But Mike's already told us his vote was. James Harden. All right, thanks. Have a good flight. Thanks, man. Appreciate it, Kev.

All right, Steve Sands coming up here in a second. Also, I will make some NBA playoff picks at the end of the podcast, not smell test picks, just overall picks on series and then the eventual champion. Quick word about launch workplaces in Bethesda. If you're looking for new office space, launch workplaces has fully furnished brand new offices right in that Massachusetts. Chusets Avenue corridor. So if you're in Upper Northwest D.C. or you're in Bethesda or Chevy Chase or even over the American Legion Bridge in northern Virginia, it's pretty close. It's a beautiful new space. It provides high-speed internet, co-working desks, conference rooms. They've got a cafe and free parking and plenty of it. 24-7 access as well. Get more work done today by moving

your office to launch workplaces. Call today for an exclusive free two-day trial. 86714 or visit launchworkplaces.com today that's 240 86714 or launchworkplaces.com. They've got other locations around town and you can find those at launchworkplaces.com. All right, we've got heavyweight day today. I mean, we just had Wilbon on and now we go to Augusta for Steve Sands from NBC and the Golf Channel. Had Scott on yesterday from Augustin. You know, I know that the last thing you even to talk about is what's going on in the golf because you were so excited about the Caps win last night. But I didn't think that they looked like a juggernaut lost last night at times. I thought Carolina looked like the much better team.

Yeah, Carolina's good, but that was a great start. You've got to impose your will on the lesser team, and they did last night. They led up the two goals in the third. It got tight. But that start was tremendous, and that's exactly what the Caps needed to do. You get that win tomorrow, get this to a 2-0 series, and it's going to be a little bit more of a comfort factor. It's a good win, though.

It's always good a way. It's hard to win, man. You know that, Kevin. 15 to go, buddy. Who are you in a house with down there? I'm not. I'm in a hotel. Oh, you are?

How about that? Yeah. No houses this week. So were you able to get back and just watch the hockey? Hunker down, man. Get that volume up and crank it out. Go playoff hockey. What's better than that?

All right, let's talk some golf. Even you, Kevin. you like playoff hockey. I do. I do like playoff hockey. I like it a lot. Watch a couple of the games last night. In fact, all right, you're in Augustine. By the time people listen to this, you know, there's going to be a lot of golf already played on Friday. So I want to start with Brooks Kepka, who was the first round, you know, tied for the first round lead. And why you think it is, and maybe this is just the perception I have from being outside of the sport. But, you is the perception the same in the sport that he seems to go under the radar in all of these events,

yet he's won two out of the last three majors, he's won three in a few years, and he's missed a couple because of injuries. He looked yesterday watching him on the back nine like a guy that was absolutely going to win this tournament to me. Yeah, I mean, he's an incredible big moment player, Kevin. He really performs well in these big spots. He's got that calm demeanor, obviously he has a ton of game, and he's not afraid of the pressure. He embraces it. He doesn't fight it. And I think the reason he flies under the radar is because he's not a guy who week in,

week out is on leaderboards on the PGA tour. He tends to disappear on the regular tour weeks. He plays well at certain spots. And then he goes away, misses cuts, and finishes tie for 56. He's not constantly on top of leaderboards. So when you get to the majors in between all those tour events, you're thinking, okay, well, look, Justin Rose just won. Francesca Mollinarre just won. Rory McRoy

just won the players. Kevin Kisner just won the match play. And he think, oh, wait, Kevin hasn't, I mean, excuse me, Brooks hasn't won in a while, so you don't really talk about him. Then he comes here and plays great. So it's not a surprise that he's playing great. He wasn't here last year because of that wrist injury. He's won three of the last seven major championships

played, Kevin. That's some heady stuff, man. Who's a comparable to Kepka in that every big event he plays big? Like, The guy that I always thought was like a big tournament player from way back in the day was Raymond Floyd. I know he was also a great frontrunner, but he always seemed to rise to the occasion in some of those big moments. Other than Tiger, who's a guy that comes to mind?

I literally was going to say Raymond Floyd, and here's why. We just had Raymond Floyd live on our air, and we were talking about Kepka, and it is so eerily similar. Now, Bremen Floyd won a lot of events, and he ended up being in the World Hall of Fame. He won three of the four major championships, came really close to winning a career grand slam. Kepka is Floyd. I did not see you say that. So I want to make that clear.

That's a guy. He was my father's favorite golfer, and my father always said there was nobody that had more ice water in his veins than Floyd. He was the toughest guy of the mall. He wasn't the best player of the mall. but he was the toughest guy in that air. He was just such a tough dude to play golf against. And he would will his way to victories. That's what Kepka does.

Kepka is just tough, steely-eyed, tons of nerves. The reason I'm saying Floyd is because when we had him on this morning, I knew we were going to have them on as a guest. We have all these past Masters champions on. And as you're doing your preparation, you think, who is this guy like today? It dawned to me. So I asked him that.

And he said, there's 100%. of a correlation between the way Brooks plays now and the way I, Raymond's saying I, did back then. So, yeah, I think it's a perfect analogy. He is just a tough, tough guy. I think he might win more majors than Floyd's five. Floyd ended up with five. I think he might win more than five. Brooks Kepka is going to be around for a while, man.

Tiger Woods shot two under 70. And I think we have fallen into this, especially in major championships, It's not just majors in the year plus he's been back, but it feels like, and maybe I'm wrong about this, it feels like there are many rounds that we get done watching Tiger, and he says, and we say watching it, you know what, he played well, he should have scored better. Yeah, that's about right.

Look, he missed, did you watch the coverage yesterday? I did. Yeah, he missed probably, let's say he missed four or five opportunities to make putt. So let's say you make half of those. Well, a 68 looks a lot better than a 70. So the way he played versus how he scored didn't quite match up. He hit the ball better than a 70, although on the second nine here, he didn't hit the ball nearly as well as he did on the first nine.

But, you know, the 70 probably is about right. It could have been a 68 or 69. But if he would have shot 68 or 69, it would have felt a lot better about it. He used to do that. He used to take 75 and make it 70. Now it seems like he takes 70 and makes it 70. Right. You know what I mean?

Like he doesn't he doesn't take... Well, didn't you, but don't you think yesterday was a 68 round? A four under round, the way he played? Yeah. Yeah. Did I say 70? I meant 68 and turned 70. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I apologize. My mistake. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, is that he used to do it the other way around. He used to take like 73s and 74s and make them 70s. Now he's taking 67s and 68's and making them 70s. And that's obviously not a good equation if you're going to try to win your fit masters. Is it because he's more conservative of a player?

I tell you what, Ken, we talked about that on the set this morning. You must be getting in our earpiece. I did not watch this morning, and I do a lot. To me, look, what do you and I know? I mean, we can barely break 90 and go have fun out there. But why aren't you playing more aggressively? Like, what is keeping you from putting your foot on the gas? I mean, he knows way more about golf and you and I will ever even think about.

But, like, I'm so curious as to why this strategy is now in play. Now, my thought on it is that he doesn't have the ability, Kevin, anymore because of his body to get after it for the entire 18 holes. He just can't do it. and my guess is that he's trying to see if the field will come back to him, will try to play conservatively to kind of hang around, and then see if he can get that extra gear on Saturday or Sunday. But I think, in my opinion, you know, it can get too late, you know, for that. You know, if you don't start playing aggressively early enough,

then you're going to fall too far behind. And then when you play too aggressively, especially on a golf course like this, and you're going to get beaten up. So I'm with you on that. I'd like to see him today. Soft golf course because of all the rain overnight and this morning. I'd like to see him play aggressively today and see what happens. Is D. Shambo annoying?

No, no, he's a good dude. He is? He's, you know, he's not one of us. He's not going to sit there and watch, you know, Maryland basketball and scream with the TV and the skins and have a couple of beers and hang out at Bentley's in College Park and that kind of thing, but that doesn't make him a bad guy or annoying. He's just not one of us, Kevin.

He has had just incredible results for a year now. Do you think he's capable of winning this weekend? You know, I was thinking about this yesterday. Will he be able to get out of his own way to succeed here? This place is different, Kevin, as you know. They want to Beth Page Black for the PGA. Great place to play golf. Pebble Beach, amazing history.

As good of history as there is in the United States outside of Augusta National. They're playing the U.S. Open there. Aurora Port Rush is where they're playing the Open in Northern Ireland. Tons of history there. But there's nothing like here. So can he get out of his way at one of those? 100%. Will he be able to do it here?

I think he'll battle that here. But I do think he'll play well. He is so good, Kevin. My gosh, he's good. And that science and those physics, stuff that you and I did not major in. No. Those things really work for him. So his comfort level is based on his knowledge level.

And the more he gets familiar with Augustine National, the more comfortable he gets. He looked awfully good yesterday, and he got off to a nice start in the second round this morning. Two of the favorites, Rory, the second favorites, either Dustin or Rose going into this thing. I don't know which one it was. But were you surprised that neither got off to a great start, Rose in particular? particular. Both of them. I thought for sure that Rory and Justin Rose went to play well yesterday and put themselves in a nice position. If you're not in the top 15 after the first day, you're not winning the Masters. Really? I'm not saying they're eliminated. But if you look at

history, if you're not in the top 15 after the first day at the Masters, very, very few people win. Very, very few. So it is an uphill battle. I I mean, the guys this morning on the set, the analysts we had, they said Rose and McElroy have already been eliminated. Wow. Anybody below two under is eliminated because the statistics bear out that you just don't get that type of winner at Augusta very often. So they are not eliminated in my mind. I think Justin Rose is at three over. But I think McElroy, here's what's interesting about McElroy.

He's won all of his majors on soft golf courses, including the one near where we live in congressional in 2011, the U.S. Open Y, 8 by 8 shots when it was really soft because of all the rain and the humidity that week. The rain has stopped as of the time we're speaking, and the sun has come out a little bit. If it doesn't rain anymore and get crazy windy or storms like that, which it's not supposed to, the golf course is as soft as it'll ever play, and as easy and as soft as it'll ever play, that bodes well for a guy like Rory. If Rory goes out there today and shoots a really strong 60s.

64, 65, maybe even a 66, I think he's right back in there. If he shoots a 68 or 69, I think it's going to be a difficult task for him because I don't think having 43 players above him is conducive to getting yourself a victory. It's hard that it's not that he's seven shots back, Kevin. It's that he has 43 guys ahead of him who are also in front of him at even par or better. So I don't think there are – I think Rose is out as the number one player at three over. But I don't think McRoy is yet at one over part. But today's the day, he must shoot a very low score.

I know you've got a run here, and you can answer these quickly if that's what you need to do. What's wrong with Spieth and do you give Phil any chance? Phil definitely has a chance. There's no question Phil has a chance. He's very comfortable. Age doesn't matter to him at this point because of the way he plays. He's not an old 48, Kevin. He's a young 40th with that long swing and the things that he's done with his body physically.

He doesn't look like he's in the greatest shape in the world like a Dustin Johnson, Brooks Capra, those kind of guys. But for him, his body type and his age, he is an incredible golf shape. And I expect Phil to hang in there. Do I think he's going to win? Probably not. But I'm telling you, he has a chance. There's no question about it after that 67 yesterday.

Speath. Speath's just having a hard time, Kevin. He's just, he's getting in his own way. He thinks too much. He's very mechanical. He's not letting his athleticism shine. He's a grinder, a natural grinder. You know, if he was our little brother, Kevin, if he was our cousin, we would say,

come on, let's go out and grab a beer and a steak. And let's get this kid on the right track and just say, go play. You're a great player. Stop thinking so much. Easier said and done. And I think he'll get himself out of it at some point, but I don't think it. it's going to happen this week. Yeah, he really overthinks. He's starting to worry me. Yeah, and you hear it, too. You hear it play out, you know, with him. It's really, it's like he's on the couch on the course.

Yeah, it's tough to watch sometimes because he's such a nice kid. I really hope he gets out of it. But it's been a while, Kevin. People are starting to get worried. See, people starting to get worried. All right. I don't know who your pick was before the tournament, but you get one, you can revise it right now at late morning here early afternoon on Friday. Who's your pick? This isn't like a smell test where the line changes. And you get the retroactive victory. Can you stick with? Are you able to stick with your first pick? Sure. You have to. I picked Rory. He got off to a bad start yesterday with six bogeys. I think he's going to shoot 65 today. I think he's going to be three, four, maybe five back

heading into the weekend. And I think he's going to give himself a chance to win. It's his time. It's his time. But I picked Roy before the week, and I'm not going to change it now. All right. Go run. I appreciate you making time for me, and I'll talk to you over the weekend. Anything for you, Kevin. Go cats. Steve Sands is always great, making time for us down there at Augusta. I know he's got some TV responsibilities. Steve is, he listens to the podcast all the time, which I appreciate. He's a good friend. He's a huge DC sports fan. If you know people that want to listen to the podcast and for whatever reason are having trouble with, you know, the typical way in which most of you are listening to a podcast, just tell him to go to the Kevin Sheeenshow.com. It's really easy.

Big blue button with a play. Just hit the arrow and they can listen to it on their desktop at home. But they can listen to it on their phone as well in the car. And a lot of you are doing that. And I appreciate that. Also, if you have not, if you're listening to us on iTunes in particular and you're not subscribing or you haven't reviewed or rated the podcast, that would help us if you would do that. Subscribe doesn't mean pay.

It's free. But it helps us. And it definitely helps us if you write a short review. and you rate the podcast, which is available on iTunes. You can also listen on Spotify, Google Play, any other Apple podcast platform, Stitcher, tune in. I think we're on radio.com right now. I need to check on that. Remind me to check on that, Aaron.

Somebody mentioned that to me the other day. Kyler Murray, according to Albert Breer, is going to make a visit to the Redskins next week. They should. They should be doing all of their due diligence and evaluation on all of these questions. quarterbacks. Who knows what people are going to think of Kyler-Marie a week from now? He could drop. You never know. Could create an opportunity for the Redskins to move up. Then again, if he drops, then you would think there would be a red flag we're too attached to the dropping. I wanted to give real quickly before we leave for the day just some thoughts on the NBA playoffs and a few

picks. In the East, I'll be honest with you, I don't have a good feel for much in the East. I will tell you that I do like the Pacers' chances to upset the Celtics. I think that that is a decent play at 4 to 1. I think they're like a plus 400 play. So I'll probably put something on the Pacers in the first round. And these are series prices against Boston. The Pistons have no chance against the Bucks. And I don't give the magic much chance against the Raptors,

and I don't really give the Nets much chance against the Sixers. I do, if you're going to ask me for one E-Cast. upset in the first round. I'll give you the five over the four. I'll give you Indiana over Boston. Out west, I love the Thunder. They are the six seed, playing the three seed, and Oklahoma City's favorite in this series. Obviously, it's the injuries for Portland, but the Thunder are a minus 165 favorite as a six seed. I like their chances to advance there. I like Utah's chances against the Rockets. I will probably put some money on Utah plus 250 against the Rockets. I do think that the Rockets are vulnerable, and I think the Jazz can do it. I love them last year in the

postseason. I think the Spurs have a chance against the Nuggets. The Clippers don't have any chance against the Warriors. So I just gave you essentially three lower-seeded teams, two of whom you can play as underdogs, all right, San Antonio and Utah, and one in the six-seat in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City, who's actually a favorite. But those are the four first round series I will probably put a little bit on. I'll put a little bit on Indiana, OKC, Utah, and San Antonio in the first round. Moving on beyond there, I don't think anybody other than Golden State comes out of the West. I'm rooting for OKC to get there to the Western Conference finals.

I think they can. Obviously, if they were to face San Antonio, in a second round series. I would like their chances. I don't know how much I feel about their chances about Denver, but I think they've got a shot to win two series and get to the Western Conference finals. But Golden State is not going to be beaten in my view in a best of seven. That's hardly going out on a limb. I understand that. And out of the east, you know, I do think that there's a wide open nature to it, but I'm going to go with Toronto and Kauai Leonard with his first chance to really get back into a meaningful playoff series. I think they'll advance to the

the Eastern Conference Finals, where I do think Milwaukee will be waiting for them. Milwaukee will have the home court advantage, but I think Kauai Leonard gets Toronto through to the championship series, and I think it's Toronto Golden State, and I think Golden State in probably no more than in no less than six games. I think there's a chance they would end that in five, and the Warriors win another title. I just don't see anybody beating Golden State with them taking it seriously. and not being bored. They've been waiting for this time of year, and I don't see anybody beating them in a best of seven. So I gave you some first-round series plays, and, you know, overall, I think that the odds for the championship, hold on, I had those in front of me

here a moment ago. All right, the odds on the, so Golden State's a prohibitive favorite at minus 225. And then it's Milwaukee, Houston, and Toronto. So Toronto is 15 to 1. You know, I would maybe throw something on them. I don't see them winning the title, but I'm talking about, you know, a reasonable long shot. I think they'll get there. The Eastern Conference odds are Milwaukee and Toronto is a 2 to 1 pick in the east. So that would be another play. All right? Let me just summarize that because I bounced around there for a little bit. In the first round, I gave you some plays. I like the spurs.

I like the Pacers. I like the Thunders. I like the Jazz. And then in terms of futures, I think I would play Toronto plus, you know, I think it's plus 200, plus 220,

somewhere in that range to win the east. I would do that. Other than that, I'm not going to lay, you know, I'm not going to, you know, lay whatever you've got to lay on Golden State to win the West.

You've got to bet a lot of money to win a little bit. So I probably wouldn't do that. And there's nobody I don't think I would take, including Houston, at five to one roughly, to get to the NBA finals. All right, that's it. Thanks to all of our guests today, Isabel Khrushudian, Mike Wilbon, and Steve Sands. We miss Ben standing today. That was my fault.

Ben will join us. We'll talk some Redskins draft stuff. He's been working on mock drafts. Plus, he had a conversation with Scott Brooks. So we'll talk to him on Monday. and Dane Bruegler, who is a draft geek and expert, will join us on Monday as well. And we'll really start getting into the draft starting next week. All right. Thanks. Have a great weekend. Talk to you on Monday.