The Kevin Sheehan Show - More Terry + Caitlin Clark Book w/Christine Brennan

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

Kevin opened up with a ton more on yesterday's Terry McLaurin press conference. He also talked Kliff Kingsbury in 2025 rear-view as well. Christine Brennan jumped on to talk about her new book about Caitlin Clark, "On Her Game; Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports". Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheen Show. Here's Kevin. Christine Brennan's got a book out about Caitlin Clark. She's going to join me, Christine, that is, not Caitlin, on the show today. I'm looking forward to that. The show's presenting sponsor is always Windonation.

86690 Nation or Windonation.com, if you've been thinking about new windows. All I ask is you let them come out. and give you a free in-home estimate. This email to open up the show, it's from Tripp. Trip writes, Kevin, without Terry, the Cliff Kingsbury Cliff will be real. Remember when you told us that the Cliff Cliff Cliff wasn't real? You explain that part of it was Kyler Murray lost DeAndre Hopkins for half of a season. Imagine not having Terry for a whole season.

Thank you, Tripp for that reminder. Yeah, the Cliff Cliff thing, you know, a year ago, we were talking a lot about the Cliff Cliff thing. It was overdone. There was so much context around it. For those that don't remember what the Cliff Cliff was, there was this narrative about Kingsbury after Washington hired him and brought him back to the NFL that defenses caught up with his offenses, you know, midseason or a little bit later in the season. And that it happened both in college when he was the head coach at Texas Tech and in the NFL when he was with the Cardinals because statistically there were, you know, a few seasons in which his teams seemed to decline, to actually decline offensively as seasons went on. So there was statistically a story to be told. But the truth was when you did any sort of research, there was a lot of context around why statistically his teams offensively would drop off. In college, the biggest part of it was that they ran up massive numbers early in the season against a doormat of a schedule when he was at Texas Tech. So they would score 60, 70, 80 points against the Stephen F. Austens of the world, the Sam Houston states of the world.

You know, they'd roll up six, seven hundred, eight hundred yards in some of those games. But as the season went on, like with most college teams, it gets tougher. The conference schedule starts in late September, October. And they dropped offensively, but they were still really good offensively. You know, they would be averaging like 40 to 50 points a game and 400 to 500 yards a game in conference games. But it was a drop-off. from the Sam Houston States and the Stephen F. Austens and the U-TEPs. You know, his offenses weren't stopped necessarily.

It was the schedule that had changed. And the other part of it, too, when he was at Texas Tech, is that his teams were terrible defensively. So when his team's defenses played a tougher schedule, they gave up a lot more. And therefore, offensively, they didn't get as many opportunities. So the Texas tech, you know, narrative on Cliff Kingsbury's cliff that he would fall off midway through a season was not really thought out well by those that claimed it or researched at all. And then in the NFL with the Cardinals, his offenses there had some issues, but a lot of the time it was injury related, like Tripp mentioned, like not having a guy like Hopkins for stretches of games.

and by the way, not having Kyler Murray for some games as well. Not to mention that Kyler Murray's rookie season was Cliff Kingsbury's first year in the NFL. So you had a rookie that kind of fell off a bit. But those Cardinal teams also, like his teams at Texas Tech, they struggled on defense for some of those years. I think there were two years when Cliff was the head coach in Arizona where the Cardinal defense was horrible, like near the bottom of the league. So that narrative about him was one that many in football knew to be false, but many fans and many in the media were looking for something to sort of critique, and they found fewer points and fewer yards as seasons went on and just assumed that defenses

caught up with Cliff's offenses. I remember last summer doing a guest hit on a radio show. I think it was in Charlotte or Raleigh. And the guy that was interviewing me, the show host, was a big believer that Cliff was not a good hire because defenses caught up with his offenses. They ended up diagnosing Cliff's offenses and stopped them as seasons went on. And I remember saying to him after kind of going through what I just went through, if defensive coordinators diagnosed and figured him out so easily, midway through a season, why didn't they just carry over the learning of his offenses to the following season, to the beginning of the following season? Like, it never made sense.

Like, if they figured him out halfway through a season, why didn't they have him figured out at the beginning of the following season? It was kind of a silly narrative, and, you know, it was debunked. I wasn't the person that sort of went down the path of explaining what it happened. And that, look, if you had talked to anybody that knew what people in the business thought of Cliff Kingsbury, you knew that the consensus was Washington hit a home run in hiring Kingsbury. Everybody that knew people in the game, new coaches in the game that I talked to said, oh my God, they're raving about Kingsbury. He's, you know, a guru with quarterback. he's creative, he's innovative.

And remember, Washington was not the only team interested. The Raiders offered him the job first. And others were interested in Kingsbury as well. By the way, this email from Tripp got me into sort of a deep dive after I read the email because I wanted to see, I don't think we did this at the end of the year. Why would we have? Because we knew that the offense was never a problem. didn't drop off at all. But I wanted to go back and look at, you know, what the offense was in the

first half of the season versus the second half of the season. They played 20 games last year, 17 in the regular season, three in the playoffs. So I looked at the first 10 compared to the second 10 games. So in the first 10 games, and I didn't go into, you know, first, third down conversions, I just looked at points in yards. And sometimes that can be misleading, of course. But In the first 10 games of the season last year, the team averaged 29 points per game exactly, and 377 yards per game. Over the final 10 games, the team averaged 28.6 points per game, almost identical to the 29, and 370 yards. So 7 yards less and 4 tenths of a point less in the second half of the season. but, so basically no drop off at all.

But you have to consider the first half of the season was much easier schedule-wise. They played the Giants twice. They played Carolina. They played Arizona. They played Chicago. They played the Bengals, remember, who had a terrible defense. And then over the final 10 games, yeah, they played the Eagles three times, including once in the playoffs. the best defensive team in the league they played three times,

not to mention games in the postseason on the road against Tampa and Detroit, where they rolled on offense. Yeah, I wasn't worried about the Kingsbury second half of the season flop happening, going into it, and I'm certainly not worried about it now after witnessing his first year as a coordinator in the league. And, you know, the Arizona experience, too, was always going to be different than the Washington experience because he was the head coach in Arizona here, just the coordinator for at least another year. And maybe that's going to be it for him. But Tri, by the way, I don't want to imagine a whole season without Terry as you finished up your note. And we're not going to have to worry about an entire season without Terry unless he gets injured.

He's under contract. He's playing for Washington this season. So a day after, you know, Terry's Warren Peace Lent press conference yesterday, Tommy and I talked a lot about it on the show yesterday because it had just happened when we did the show. But a few things that I may have mentioned and a few things that I'll add to that today. First of all, let me cut to the chase. I am still a believer that a deal is going to get done sooner rather than later, meaning closer to the beginning of training camp than the end of it. And by the way, I want it to get done. I want Terry to be happy with a new deal.

And I want that deal to be a good deal for the team as well. but a few things about, you know, the outpouring from Terry yesterday, some of which I mentioned on the show yesterday and some of which I haven't mentioned. You know, that press conference, I'll start with that, and I said this to Tommy. It was just too long, you know, but there was a reason for that and I'll explain. He could have made, you know, the same impression, you know, being unhappy, being frustrated, being disappointed, being hurt. in 10 minutes or less. Maybe a better impression, actually, in 10 minutes or less. The thing went on for close to 35 minutes.

Well, I did not know this yesterday, but there was nobody from Skins PR there to manage that thing. And it was obvious. No way that Washington's current public relations group, which by the way won the award for the best PR group in the NFL, for 2024, quite a change from the way it used to be. No way they would have let Terry sit out there for 35 minutes. His agent was there, and I think maybe, although I don't know this for sure, maybe there was someone else there on his behalf that was somewhat of a public relations person. But it was just too much of Terry being repetitive, being, you know,

emotional, you know, too much of what was repeated was how frustrated, disappointed, confused. He was with the way the team was handling things. I don't blame him for yesterday. I blame whomever was there on his behalf. Now, does it matter in the big picture? Probably not. But I found it, as I said yesterday, to have been exhausting and a bit annoying. That was my view.

and I know it was the view of many of you guys as well because you let me know that. I was surprised. I thought I was going to be very much in the minority with my view of it being exhausting and a bit annoying. And I don't want Terry to come off that way. And if I were representing him, it would have been a statement and a couple of questions

and then it would have been, we got two left and we're wrapping it up. Ten minutes or less. That would have been it. That would have been the show. And by the way, a lot would have come out of it, just as much would have come out of it. What was very obvious, and I said this yesterday, is that even more than being frustrated, confused, disappointed, all words he used, he was hurt. I heard in Terry's voice and words yesterday during this press conference that he feels like, unjustifiably so, that he's been through hell and back, with this franchise, and that he's been a total pro the entire way, both on the field and off of it.

And then after last season, the first great season, his best season, he expected that the team would embrace him and would see him for what he believes he is, which is a great player on the field who's even greater off of it. You know, for a franchise that is trying to change 24 years, of terrible culture. And I think he sees himself at the forefront of that. And he's got good reason to think that about himself. I don't think he needed to sell it as much as he did because we know what he is. He's a pro's pro.

That's what he's always been. We've witnessed that from the time he was a rookie. He was always the one guy that was above it all, both on the field and off it. You know, now, as far as the player that he is, I thought that he emphasized during about a two to three minute stretch during his press conference yesterday, he emphasized the age of being 30 heading into this season. And he talked, you know, at length about, you know, it's not a normal 30. He said, you know, he didn't get as many snaps in college as a lot of the other guys. He pointed to still being a 4-3 guy. He talked about being the top contested catch guy.

He reminded everybody about the play in Detroit in the playoff game where he took the bubble screen and went, you know, I think 58 yards for a touchdown. And he said something to the effect that I can't see this upcoming season being any different than that. I can't either in this upcoming season. I think the emphasis on age a couple of times during that press conference, but especially that two to three minute stretch where he was really selling that he's not the normal 30. It says to me that that is a big part of what maybe the team is holding against him in negotiations. We've talked about it from the very beginning that what would make this negotiation a bit tricky is him going into his age 30 season.

And then the part that says, where is he really? you know, on the list of the best wide receivers in the game. Well, ESPN's list came out today on wide receivers. I'm going to get to that in a moment. I had another thought today that I did not mention on the show yesterday with Tommy. So the salary cap guy and a guy that's involved in contract negotiations is Brandon Sosna. He came from Detroit. Remember, they hired him last year, along with Lance Neck.

Newmark, who was in Detroit as well. They had a history recently of getting deals done, getting deals done with Jared Gough, with Penae Sewell, and with Amonra St. Brown. And I wonder how much Brandon Sossna, Brandon Sosna, and Lance Newmark are pushing back on any of the discussion internally about paying Terry, you know, top five money, top, you know, 32, 33, $34 million a year because they negotiated just over a year ago, April of 2024, a four-year $120 million, $30 million a year, $77 million guaranteed contract extension with Amon Ra St. Brown. And Amon Ra St. Brown, when he signed the deal last April, was 24 years old.

He turned 25 during the season last year. So he's basically four to five years younger than Terry. And he's better. Not by a lot. You know, in his position's a little bit different. He is much more of an inside receiver than anything else. Terry's versatility is a bit greater than Amon Rae St. Brown's, but Amon Rae St. Brown is a stud.

He is a three-time pro bowler. He is a two-time first team all-pro the last two years. and he's 25. Think about that, though. Inside the building, let's just say, and we don't know exactly what Terry's asking for. Ian Rappaport suggested that he's looking for something north of 30 million a year, so in the low 30s.

All right, and I don't know, let's just say the team is offering something less than 30 million a year. So there's a divide there. But, you know, one of the reasons they may feel that way is Newmark and Saucson. just did this deal with Amonra St. Brown. And they probably look at Amonra St. Brown. They can certainly take his numbers and say, well, he's a bigger producer than Terry. And some of you would say, and I got this on phone calls today, well, that's because they force feed him. That's been a conversation about Terry for a while now.

Why don't they force feed him? Why don't they target him more? Why don't they immediately start off with getting the ball into his hands? Well, and I've said this on Mondays after games, he's not a force feed type of guy. He's not that guy that you're going to target 14, 15 times a game. He just isn't. Now, you know, Amon Ross St. Brown's been in a Ben Johnson offense with Jared Gough. Not, you know, the first year they weren't very good, and he still produced 90 catches as a rookie.

Terry's not had 90 catches in a season once. But, you know, even if we just say they're the exact same receiver, the difference in age, are they going to give Terry a deal that's larger than a Monro St. Brown's deal that they just doled out a year ago or two of the top three or four guys in our organization gave out a year ago, just over a year ago? I think there's a lot going on here. You know, that ESPN list that came out today, receivers, all right, receivers. Terry was not in the top 10. I had guessed, I forget if I said this on the radio show or the podcast yesterday, I forget. But I had guessed that Terry would probably fall somewhere between 8 and 10. He was 22nd the year before.

He was also receiving votes. But that was after an Eric B. Enemy Sam Howell season. He was not in the top 10. This is the list, by the way, that had Jaden Daniels number five at quarterback. The list that is a survey result that ESPN does with head coaches, front office execs, and scouts. Terry was not in the top 10. I'll give you the top 10 right now. Jamar Chase 1, Justin Jefferson 2, Tarik Hill 3.

By the way, I'd have to re-kill 3. Taree Kill is still the most dangerous player with the football in his hands in the league. CD Lamb was for AJ Brown 5. Personally, I think AJ Brown's better than CD Lamb. That's just me. You know, I think that there is a top tier here. It's Chase in Jefferson. And then I think there's a tier that includes Hill and AJ Brown in particular.

And then I think the third tier includes CD Lamb. That's me. But anyway, AJ Brown was five. So Chase Jefferson Hill, Lamb, A.J. Brown, that's your top five. Number six. Amman Rae St. Brown. So the leagues, coaches, scouts, and execs think Amman Rae St. Brown is the sixth best receiver in the league. Malik Neighbors was seven.

After one year, he had over 100 catches, 1,200-plus yards, with one of the worst offensive situations in the league. I think Malik Neighbors, and we saw it in week two last year, star in the making. Man, wouldn't it be nice to somehow see him end up in Washington in a few years in a trade or free agency? It won't happen. Reuniting with Jaden. Malik Neighbors, 7. All right. Nico Collins.

I'm a Nico Collins fan. I think he's really good. Eight. Mike Evans, nine. And Garrett Wilson, who just signed that deal 10. All right? That's your top 10, according to coaches, front office execs, and scouts. Now, Terry was the first honorable mention.

and I'm pretty sure this goes in order of votes. So by that description, Terry is the 11th best receiver in the game. I think, you know, we've talked about this. You know, I think he's somewhere around 10 plus or minus one or two. You know, I think that's where he is. You know, you start looking at this list, man, there's so many great receivers. Puka Nakua is on the honorable mention list. Brian Thomas Jr., what a season he had as a rookie last year.

D.K. Metcalfe. T. Higgins. You know, that T. Higgins contract is one that people, you know, reference like, you know, you got to give him more than T. Higgins. He's a number two receiver. Yeah, but he'd be a number one on most teams. He may have the best hands in the league. And then Devante Adams on the honorable mention list. And then also receiving votes. Devante Smith, Ladd McConkey, Jackson Smith, Nijigba, Jameson Williams, DJ Moore, Chris Godwin, George Pickens, Calvin Ridley, Jalen, Jalen, Jailon, Cortland Sutton. But Terry's, you know, outside the top 10. So how will that play in negotiations?

Probably not at all. But it certainly wouldn't have hurt his cause had he been solidly inside the top 10. That's the way the league sees him. You know, he's he's really good. He's just not elite. I had another thought, too, as I was going through this wide receiver list. you know that three of the odds-on favorites to win the Super Bowl, three of the top four, Philly, KC, Buffalo, and Baltimore are the top four favorites to get to the Super Bowl next year. Obviously, Kansas City was there, Philadelphia was there, Buffalo was in the AFC championship game, and they had beaten Baltimore in the divisional round. Do you know that three of those teams, Kansas City, Buffalo, and Baltimore, don't have one

wide receiver in the top 10 on the honorable mention list or in others receiving votes. Basically 26 receivers and they don't have any of them. And what is unique about those three teams? They have elite quarterbacks in Allen Mahomes and Jackson. Now, you know, we have said about Baltimore over the years, God, just give them a better receiving core, you know, with Lamar. But the truth is that when you have an elite, quarterback, he elevates everything around him. And everybody ends up being better than they may look on paper, including Terry. I'll finish with this in this opening segment. You know, I said to Tommy yesterday, is it style? Is style the reason we're here right now? Because Adam Peters and San Francisco when he was there, they waded out deals, they hammered out deals right before the regular

season started, not before training camp started? Or are they skeptical about Terry? It might be both. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I will say this. I'm with the team on this one. I want Terry back. I want him to sign a long-term contract. You know, when we've had these conversations about Terry in the past, so many of you have accused me of not being a Terry fan. I am a Terry fan. I just, unlike some of you, not most of you, but some of you, I watch the entire league. I know how greatness or how the position is played by the best at the position. And that's not Terry. He's not a dominant wide receiver like six or seven of them are.

But he's really good. He's really good. But I trust the team on this. I trust them to get it right. I trust them that they know exactly. what Terry is as a player, not only right now, but they have a really good sense of what he will be as the contract matures. I trust that if they don't get a deal done, that they had good reason for not getting it done. And part of that reason is that they've got a plan in place.

They've got a plan to replace him next offseason, whether it be in the draft or somewhere else. Or they've concluded that we're okay with him. playing this final year on his contract. We think it's beneficial for the team. It leaves open some options at the end of next year. And if he balls out again, we can always franchise tag him if we don't get him signed next off season. You know, the other thing about this conversation, who's got the leverage right now? I think it's too tough to say, in my opinion. The team wants to win now. They want to take advantage of Jaden's rookie contract. And let's face it. There's nothing for us on the roster that would say, oh, they'll be fine without Terry.

I mean, Luke McCaffrey, who knows? Right? I mean, Michael Gallup, I mean, come on. You know, in terms of, you know, having a second receiver to go with, you know, not only Debo Samuel, but, you know, and by the way, we're unsure of the health at this point of a guy like Noah Brown. But, you know, part of the leverage that you would say Terry has is the team has a window. It's the Jaden Daniels rookie contract window. They're not stacked at wide receiver to say the least on the roster. And by the way, the team's probably not going to want to have a reputation in their first big contract negotiation of not taking a, you know, not taking good care of a player. like Terry, a player of his caliber, both on the field and off of it.

At the same time, Terry's under contract, so there's not a lot of leverage when you're under contract. He can't go anywhere else. He can't hold out at 30 years old and lose a year and then be in the same situation next year. He can't really force a trade because Washington's not trading him. You know how trades go this time of year. you don't get maximum value back. And because the team that would be acquiring him needs to pay him, that knocks down the compensation as well.

So they're not trading him. You know, so who's got the leverage right now? I have no idea. I don't think anybody has great leverage. I don't think anybody has great advantage over the other. The team wants, I would think, wants him, and they don't want to look bad in the way they're handling it with him. and at the same time Terry doesn't have a lot of options because he's under contract.

Anyway, all right. I think the deal should look like 30 to 31 million a year, 60 to 70 guaranteed. That seems right to me. Christine Brennan, next after these words from a few of our sponsors. It can be hard for men to deal with hair loss, even though it's common. Luckily, I'm here to provide you with a solution so you don't even have to talk about it. Through Hymns, you can restore your hair by accessing their personalized hair loss solutions. HIMS provide you with convenient and quality access to a range of hair loss treatments that work all from the comfort of your couch.

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I do want to mention real quickly that I recorded the interview with Christine yesterday. So if you don't hear a reference to Caitlin Clark getting injured last night, she injured her groin again for the second or third time this year, that's why we recorded the interview before Caitlin Clark played her game last night. This segment of the show is brought to you by Window Nation. If you're struggling with this heat and humidity, if your home is uncomfortable with the air conditioning running on full blast 24-7, it's high time to replace your old windows. Right now, Window Nation is running their best offer of the year.

50% off all window styles and no interest until the year 2030. That's right, zero percent interest for five whole years. Plus, they'll finish the job in one day so you can get back to your routine quickly and find relief from this heat. Every summer from here on out, have a cooler home with new windows from Window Nation. 86690 Nation, Windonation.com. Mention my name and they'll come out and give you a free in-home estimate. Joining me right now is Christine Brennan. I love having Christine on the show. Christine, of course, is a legendary reporter, columnist author. Most of you know that Christine was the first woman for the

Washington Post to cover the Redskins as a beat reporter back in 1985. She's a columnist with USA Today currently. You see her all the time on major news networks as a guest and commentator. She's made so many contributions to sports journalism over her long career. And now she's got a book out that is going to do well, I predict. It's about Caitlin Clark, the biggest needle mover in sports, really, over the last two years. The book is called On Her Game, Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports. You know, I was thinking about this right before I called you. The last time I had you on was just over a year ago, before.

the Paris Olympics. And after it was determined that Caitlin Clark was not going to be a part of the women's Olympic basketball team, and you called it the dumbest decision that you would ever witnessed in all of the years of covering the Olympics. And I was wondering, because I've tried to figure this out over the many months since the Olympics, how much money do you think they lost by not putting her on the team. I mean, the jerseys alone that they could have sold. Has anybody quantified the loss in revenue of not having Caitlin Clark on the Olympic team last summer? Well, hey, Kevin.

And not anything official because all of those people clamped up for the book. USA basketball did not want to talk to me no matter how many times. And I think you know me well as a reporter. who will keep trying and keep giving people an opportunity to talk and clear the air and maybe soften, you know, something if they had an explanation and what have you. I have a whole chapter in on her game called Olympic Snub, where I tell even more details of that dreadful decision by USA basketball to take the biggest name in women's sports basketball history, not the greatest player, not now, maybe never, but the biggest name, the biggest attention magnet, person who was going to bring all the eyeballs, not just at those games in Paris, but to continents and countries around the world who were waiting to watch her and then would see the rest of the players, majority of them black, who deserve the attention, never gotten it from our male-dominated mainstream sports media.

But, and of course, none of that happened. I mean, as everyone wants to go to their game globally, NHL, as we know, is going to shut down to have the hockey players at the Olympics in Milan. in February, NFL plays overseas all the time. It's a major league baseball starts out overseas. And here's the WNBA leaving the best known player in its history, or the USA basketball, but also the WNBA players, of course, leaving the best known player, Kevin, in women's basketball history home. Also a great player whose statistics were better than Diana Tarasi and a few others. But it did was the worst rated women's Olympic gold medal game since 2008.

So that's terrible, just terrible, the worst rated, worse viewership, according to NBC. Meanwhile, the day before, the U.S. women's soccer team played also in the morning, a little later, but also morning because of the time difference, and had their greatest rating since 2004. So at absolute missed opportunity at every level, they almost lost the game, too, which was, of course, ragged and terrible. And I deal with all of that and just the, you know, just the fact that they didn't want her around, and you're seeing it over and over again in the Debbie and. NBA as well. So it is certainly foreshadowed so much of what we're seeing right now, even, this season in the WNBA. So, Christine, I've actually had a hard time answering this for myself. And the question is, why? Why are so many people attracted to Caitlin Clark and watching her play basketball? I never once watched a complete WNBA game. Never. I don't even think I watched

probably more than five minutes of a WNBA game. But over the last two years from Iowa into the WNBA game, whenever she's on and I'm near a television, I watch it and I watch her. What is it about her that has moved the needle? You know, I think you and I discussed this the last time you were on. I'm not sure there's been a needle mover for a sport that needed it more since Tiger Woods. What is it about her that's attracted people that never paid it?

attention to it before? She's a basketball player, obviously, but she's really an entertainer. The logo three, you know, she's chucking it from the parking lot and it's going in. And you can't take your eyes out that, right? And in fact, the chapter title is you can't take your eyes off her. That's a quote. And the quote is from none other than two-time U.S. Open men's golf champion Curtis Strange. Kevin, did you ever think I'd be quoting Curtis Strange, who I like,

very, very much, about women's basketball. I mean, that's where we are with this, right? For everyone listening, and of course, thanks so much for having me, for everyone's always great to talk to you, for anyone listening, especially guys listening, right? I guess I have a lot of sports-loving guys listening to you, and we know those guys. We love those guys, right? I mean, they're the backbone of sports fandom. Women coming more and more girls, of course, but it's guys.

And everywhere I go, I'm in Iowa right now. doing big, huge book events here. But I was in D.C. and we, you know, sold out there and in Ohio, my hometown to start out, sold out over 500 books. So, I mean, just incredible. I'll have people coming up to, especially men, saying, I never watched the game until her. Or women will say, I didn't care either.

Or they'll say, let me tell you about my husband or my brother or my dad. And it is that. And also, as I said, not just men, but women. women. So she's the High Wire Act. Those passes, there was that beautiful pass the other day. If people didn't see it, go and look, find it. It's everywhere on social media, wherever you want to look, Google it, where Caitlin Clark blocks the shot. Alia Boston gets to the ball back and then length of the floor, unbelievable pass from Clark to Sophie Cunningham running like, you know, Carl Lewis. And she's leaping right near the basket.

The ball thrown by Caitlin, probably what, 80 feet. And it literally goes skimming right over the tip tops of the fingertips of the defender for Dallas. And then Sophie Gunningham right into her hands, boom, lay up. And as the announcer that it was the SPN, Ryan Rucco says, or ABC, I think, whatever, one of those. He literally says, touchdown, Indiana fever. One of the great calls ever, that's the kind of thing that's going to have millions of views, That's the entertainment value. That's why people come back.

And the WMBA players just don't seem to understand this. You know, just today they picked 53.8% said in a poll of the athletic, anonymous poll, which is fun, you know, all those things that they always do in MLB and whatever about players, just anonymous GMs or in John. Yeah. And 53.8% said that Caitlin will be the face of the league in five years. Now, that's okay, more than half. I mean, right.

But then they've got, you know, X number of percent below that is Paige Becker's. and Ju-Ju-Watkins and whatever. You know, it should be 95%. I mean, unless she's in it, but that's not the point. I mean, anyone could get injured or something could happen in five years. They just don't get it. They don't get it. No one gets it.

The naysayers, it's the entertainment value. And when you went to Tiger, I agree, but I disagree. I covered Tiger the length of his career, as you know, and I agree that Tiger was that, that singular athlete, that grandmothers who wouldn't know the difference between a birdie and a bogey would plan their Sunday afternoons, round Tigers, fourth round tea time at the Masters. Never happened before, never happened again. That's all that's gone. There's no other golfer that's ever, well, we haven't seen that's

coming along that's anywhere in that Rory, no way, no way, no way. And, but the difference is men's golf had already had Arnold Palmer in checkman. Yes, true. It had already had, right? Sam, agreed, and Byron Nelson. It wasn't a fledgling sport. Well, and it had a huge sponsorship. Yeah. And huge network deals and decent ratings. I mean, Arne, and Jack, and Sports Illustrated covers left and right. The WNBA had none of that, which is like Caitlin Clark is so much more important to the WNBA than Tiger Woods was to golf, and I think you can easily say that there's no athlete who's ever been more important to his or her league or circuit or tour than Caitlin Clark is to the WNBA. Yeah, the whole thing is quite remarkable to

watch from afar, Christine. I've talked about it many times over the last year. I mean, here was this gift from God, this meal ticket for a league that hadn't made money in 27 years. And, you know, they're just not embracing it. They don't seem to get it. My question is, you know, why don't they get it? A and B, are they actually at times sabotaging this incredible opportunity that they were presented with? Well, when Marina Mabry, who I've interviewed and she very respectful of Caitlin Clark, when she plows into Caitlin Clark like a freight train, deadball foul in that Connecticut, excuse me, Connecticut Sun game a few weeks ago. Yeah.

I don't think she gets it because what you're doing there, Marina Mayberry, first of all, she's been kicked out right then. These refs are not good at all. And the eyeballs on the rest are shot. I mean, like, if you've got eyeballs as never before, which you do and TV ratings is never before, what you do, if you're at the NBA, you have to up your game. you have to say, we've got to get better. And now you're just showing the nation this product that just continues to confound so many people.

But Marina Mayvery, thankfully, Caitlin Clark was not injured on that play. But I would say this about anyone getting plowed into like that. Just absolute cheap shot. You should suspend that person for a game or two. If they don't suspend her, if you've got a leader leading the league, if Kathy Englebert could do this, she doesn't have it in her apparently, to literally say, come out the next day, that's a two, game suspension. You can't do that to anyone, much less Caitlin Clark. And if the

Players Association, Kevin says, no, no, you can't do it. Well, then have the legal battle. Go ahead, have it. It's that this is the moment for the WNBA. This is the time there's never been another, anything like this in this league. But here's Marina Mayberry, plowing into her, plowing into the economic rocket ship that will take and give Marina Maybrie more money. Now, again, I know people, you know, this book is getting tons of attention. I'm all over and I know people hate me or love me or whatever. Great. Bring it on.

I couldn't care less. You know, if you're mad at me, read the book and see what you think because there's a lot in there, a lot that I think people will be surprised and enjoy and read about. And race issue, of course, I take it all on, you know me covering every aspect of any story. But, you know, so you've got all of this with Caitlin and this idea of. of she's the one. Well, I'm also saying this. She doesn't, you know, need, she's not a victim. She is, she can give it as good as she takes it.

And that's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about normal fouls. We're not talking about chippiness. She's good at that, too. We're not talking about complaining. She's really, she does that. All in the book. Deal with all of it.

I have her comments about what she's thinking, oh, too much, she said at one point, you know, when she had a technical file. real honest appraisal from Caitlin Clark on her behavior, her attitude, thinks she needs to work on. All of that's in the book. That's not what I'm saying, and I know you know that. What I'm saying is a cheap shot that can literally put someone out, and why does that matter?

And I think you know this. I'm sure many of your listeners actually heard the statistic. It's absolutely astounding. The first time Caitlin Clark was injured, and she did not get injured on that place, as we know, but then she got injured later with her groin injury. But the first time she was out this year, and this is so unusual, never missed a game since high school, the five games she missed. When she was gone, more than half of the TV audience of the WNBA also disappeared.

More than half. When Tiger missed some golf events, it would be a few percentage point drop. When Michael Jordan was gone, again, you know, it dropped a little, a few percent, you know, whatever, five, ten percent, whatever. I've looked it up, depending on the numbers and what you're looking at. Yeah, more than half of the audience said, we're not watching anymore. So what a conundrum. They've got the collective bargaining agreement open, right? So the players that don't like her that are jealous of her, I deal with that in the book.

Muffet McGraw, the Notre Dame coach, talks about the former Notre Dame coach, Petty Jealousy. Obviously, I deal with all the racial component of this, which is understandable, 74%. percent black league, a white woman, superstar. Welcome to America. I deal with all of that, all those issues as best I can with some amazing voices, both black and white. But when you think that there she's gone, you know, gone and there goes half your audience, the owners are salivating in the collective bargaining agreement to say, it's Caitlin Clark folks. And the players now have to then use Caitlin Clark as a bargaining chip. What a conundrum, right? Because so many of them seem to just can't stand her, not like her and wish, you know, whatever.

No one around or whatever they feel about her. Many different opinions, clearly. But they meet her so desperately in the negotiations that are ongoing. Absolutely fascinating. Where are the adults in all of this, Christine? You and I talked about this. I remember specifically last summer when she got left off the Olympic team. It was like, why didn't somebody step up and just say, wait a minute, she may not be one of the best

15 players, but this is a business, and we've been losing money for 27 years, and we've been funding this thing as NBA owners and as the league the NBA for 27 years. And now we've got a chance to actually turn it into, you know, a profitable venture. The adults in the room are going to take this conversation over, and we're going to make the right decisions. And it seems like they're still not making the right decisions. Where are the grownups in all of this? Well, they're missing in action, and it's stunning. You know, the NBA owns 60% of the WNBA, whether it's the actual league or individual owner, right? So with teams, what have you? You know, like Indiana fever, which obviously we're ready, totally ready, great place for Caitlin

Carr to go because it's Pacer sports and entertainment. I mean, it's perfect, you know, the Pacers and you've got Big Brother who knows exactly what they're doing. It's a great organization. They've been able to pull it off. The perfect example, I reported this and broke this story back last year, and of course I've followed up with more of it in the book. The charter flights. So as I think everyone will remember,

we heard after Caitlin Clark was drafted into the WNBA, one of the most famous athletes in the country, one of the most famous people in the country, recognizable as anyone and even more now, but certainly back then in April of 20, They were not going to have charter flights. They were going to have her fly commercial, as did Brittany Griner, which again was ridiculous when she came back from being in prison in Russia.

They finally had to give her a chance for charters because she was accosted once in the Dallas Fort Worth Airport by some crazy person. Anyway, now here comes Caitlin Clark. And the word, Kevin, is there. I've asked, others have asked, no charter flights. Caitlin Clark is going to go through airport. She's going to go through TSA pre-check. The players are going to need to put her at the window seat and make sure they put two people in the middle.

And again, it's not first class, you know, so they're all jammed in, tall women, what have you. That's been going on for a long time. But Caitlin Clark is first ever crossover, transcendent, you know, totally recognizable, household name everywhere. So that's the difference. That's why we're carrying. Not because she's White, not because she's Caitlin Clark and everyone knows who she is. Okay. So that's what's going on. And that's what they're going to do. And keep in mind all these players in college all fly on charter because, of course, the money is there because of Title IX. So this is the first commercial flight for any, anytime you go to the WNBA, that's going to be your first commercial flight with their team in four years or five years. Okay. So I ask, I'm going to write a column criticizing this decision. I think it's dangerous. She could get injured. I mean, they're playing with fire, right? Someone comes up to her in baggage. claim and plows into her, a group of girls excited. Girl Scout troop comes running over in the

concourse, lands on our ankle, any number of things nefarious or just not good. Okay, so I call up an NBA source, and I'm talking to that source on Friday, it's like May 3rd or whatever right before the Kentucky Derby weekend. And I'm going, and I just want to hear that person out. This is what I do as a journalist. You know, I can just pontificate from my desk or I can, actually ask, get opinions, and I really try to include people and tell them what I'm planning to do so they can say, okay, let me show you another point of view. I've done that for a long time, and it's worked pretty well, so we keep doing it. That's what I was doing on that May Day in 2024. The NBA official and I talked for about 45 minutes, and I'm going to write the column,

and I'm trying to get opinions, and no, we're not having charters, and it's just not ready, and we're not going to do it, blah, blah, blah. Okay, fine. Then, as we're ending the call, And obviously my point is clear. I'll write the column like that night or the next day or whatever. But it's the weekend coming. The person says, would you mind waiting a couple days? There might be more information. So it's like something was new.

You know, something had kind of just happened. Sure, I can wait. I can definitely wait a couple days. I get a call on Monday from this person. We're going to have some big news. You're going to be able to break it tomorrow, meaning to the Tuesday. So literally one, two, three days after I, after the Friday, four days after the Friday,

basically 72, you know, 96 hours later, you're going to be able to break the news that there are charter flights. I'm like, what? I mean, they were adamant. There were no charter flights. A journalist called, and I don't take any credit for this. I hope there's another reason, but what is the other reason? And now the NBA has charter flights.

Is that how the NBA does business, Kevin? Is that how you make decisions? How hey? Like, okay, now we're doing it. Was it sexism? Did they not think of it? How is it? So you ask about adults, the NBA would be the adults, right?

Yeah. And look at that anecdote. Every second of what I just told you is absolutely true. And it's totally astounding to me to this day that that happened 14 months ago. Well, look at you getting charter flights. You know, as you're describing it, you know, it did occur to me. that this is such new ground in sports, and it's unprecedented what she's become.

And I wonder why nobody thought of it. And by the way, you know, the Girl Scout example would be the best case example. There are a lot worse scenarios I could come up with in my head with her that accessible and that exposed. But yeah, that's crazy. It's what I've been talking about and what you're obviously writing about is, is this, you know, lack of getting everybody together to say, you guys don't get it. She's the one. It's not Angel Reese. It's not the rivalry between the two. She's the needle mover. And it's all time. And we have to take advantage of it. And we can't kill it, you know, while we have it. I did want to ask you, though, specific to sort of the difference between petty jealousy, you know, she's straight, she's white. How do you view that in terms of where the dislike, the hatred, the jealousy is coming from? It is a 74% black league. And you and I have no idea what it is like to live for one second as a black person, right?

And I'm very honest about that. And every book, if I'm traveling in the country for this book and doing book tour events and signings and talks and meeting people, I say that. You know, I don't know. So I know what I know. I know what I don't know. Right? I don't know this.

So I decided to do, obviously, I talked to dozens and dozens of people for this book. And one of the great voices in the book, and I'm so honored, is the man named Dr. Harry Edwards, who is great civil rights leader. I've done panels together, black man, obviously, done panels together at Super Bowls, and he was the impetus for the 1968 black power salute at the Mexico City Olympics. So his voice is so important in this book. And if he's watching all the nastiness and Cheryl Swoops with her flurry of falsehoods and Diana Tarasio, reality's coming, just nasty, nasty stuff from a 41-year-old to a 22-year-old who adores her. Like, anyone who meant to, I mentor tons and tons of college students, I'm sure you talk to people all the time.

Can you imagine treating a 22-year-old like even that? Reality's common kid. Who says that? Who does that to a 22-year-old with stars in her eyes so thrilled to be in a league with you? That's Diana Tarazzi, folks. That's Diana Tarati. Maybe she doesn't care, but the world's watching her for the first time. Even Tarazi.

You know, most people have no idea in the country. Taurasi was until that moment. I wish, you know, I wish all these great athletes had gotten attention. I fought for that. I wrote columns. I talked about that. They deserved more attention in the 90s and early in the century, but they didn't get it. And reality is a funny thing.

It's true. You know, facts are facts. So it didn't happen then for those black players. Male-dominated sports media didn't care. I know it. I'd go on radio shows, maybe with you. And, you know, as we talked and people are laughing, callers. Oh, it's a joke.

They're rolling around on the floor, jump balls. Yeah, I try to defend it, but that's how people felt about the WNBA and women's basketball. So here we are. Dr. Harry Edwards, I talked to him. First of all, I love Caitlin Clark. This is a great basketball player, he said to me. And then he said the league failed the players. The WNBA not only missed an opportunity to prepare its players for this moment.

They set the traps along the path that the league was going to travel. that WNB needed to understand and prepare for the disappointment in anger that some black players in particular would be experiencing with Clark's arrival. He said it was predictable. It's human nature for people to not be happy for you when you're new and successful. Well, they've been toiling away for a long time. He's thought a series of seminars, Zoom calls, meetings. He would have talked to people, have one-on-ones with some players, not because they're damsels in distress. their college-educated, great, strong women.

But this was so new and so different. Of course, the WNBA did none of this. And then the great Brian Eskiry, goalkeeper on the 1999 women's soccer team, the first black superstar on the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team. Same thing. I talked to her.

She came to my book event the other day of politics and pros. Great to see her. Just a lovely person and a great voice. And she said, of course, it's polarizing for some people, but it's a watershed moment. And she said, I hope all these amazing black players are taking full advantage of the fact the spotlight is on what they're doing now. She understood the frustration, been around for 27 years. But my goodness, she said, it's having this moment right now.

And please, please, please, as players in the league, do not let this opportunity pass you by to get yours. So much better than me saying it. seminars, planning, thoughtfulness. But I had another official when I, when Caitlin Clark announced for the draft, I said, you realize how big this is. I called this official. And they said, yeah, this is the biggest thing that happened to the WNBA since Maya Moore. And I said, what?

Yeah. Maya Moore is a great player and deserved all the attention that we're talking about, right? Myanmar absolutely deserved to be that household name. But she wasn't. And you and I could try to travel back, but that, right? I mean, I'm not even being... The lack of self-awareness is stunning, and I've said this a couple of times.

What you just said about Diana Tarazi, I think for a lot of sports fans, it's like, you know, it's kind of like the way they feel about senators. It's like, I'm pretty sure he's a senator. I just can't tell you what state he's from. I mean, like that's WNBA players and star players for most sports fans. I know some of the people listening follow the WNBA, but I'm more typical.

I couldn't tell you one thing about Diana Tarazi's career. And the only reason I know Maya Moore's name is because she's Caitlin Clark's favorite player. That's the only reason I know her name. First time I heard it. Here's the thing, Kevin. Right. And you're not, obviously, you're not alone. This is where we were.

And again, you and I, we deal with facts, we deal with numbers, we deal with data, right? We cover sports. I can wish forever that Maya Moore became with Caitlin Clark before Caitlin Clark. It didn't happen. No. So like you asked the question about the adults. You know, where are the grownups in the room? Like, so people get mad about this now.

And then they're mad. You know, I see social media obviously assess to all and sex and all that. So, you know, who knows? But it could be Russian bonds. I have no idea. But what is it about people that they just can't seem to get over that and say, and we know this because we've seen the All-Star voting numbers. Asia Wilson had like 90,000 votes two years ago for All-Star voting.

Caitlin was a senior in college. No Caitlin Clark. Asia Wilson, 90, 92,000 votes. The next year, she was up into, what, 300, 400,000, and now she's close to like 800, 900,000. So the rising tide lifts all boats, people. There is your example. It is absolutely undeniable. And even when the TV ratings for the playoffs last year,

when Caitlin and Indiana lost to the Connecticut Sun, obviously the best ratings by far were Caitlin Clark. So now she's gone. The ratings were still better than they had been. Some of those people did stick around. Some of the people that were intrigued, hey, let's go ahead and watch Minnesota now, you know, whatever. That's great.

You can thank Caitlin and thank her fans. And name another time when people wanted to police fandom. I'm not talking about policing bad people out of a stadium. Get them out. Racist behavior in a stadium. Get it out. I hate racism. You hate racism.

Get it out of there. Right? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about like, no, no, we don't want you to be a fan. Gino or am a delusional fan base. I talked to him about that. I quote him on that, of course, that absolutely the worst sports prediction of all time about Caitlin's failure.

Yeah. Well done, Gino. And I asked delusional fans. I said, isn't by definition a fan kind of delusional? And he laughed. I said, do you think Roger Goodell is walking around going, well, let's get rid of those delusional fans? No, you say, please buy more tickets and come to more games and bring the kids and have fun. Have you ever heard of anyone? And Gino is as big ambassador for women's basketball as there is. Obviously, the Yukon head coach now 12 national talks. titles, terrific, fabulous. We're not saying anything negative about that. What we're saying is that why would you ever say delusional? And I went, you know, we went back and forth on that and kind of grudgingly agreed that, yes, who doesn't want fans? Who doesn't want more people? Yeah. It is astounding as I delved into it for the book on her game. Kevin, I got more into it. I was more, as I'm writing in January, February, you know, those cold, dark days in D.C. I'm going, what is going on here? But I try to make sense. of it with terrific, smart people,

Billy Jean King, Tamika Ketchings, Kate Martin, Caitlin's, you know, best friend is, I talked to her for 30 minutes for the book. Caitlin is quoted extensively throughout the book with lots of amazing thoughts. I say she's 22 going on 40 or 50. How lucky

the WNBA is that she has the demeanor, the confidence, the strength, the class to handle all this and keep going. All right. I know I'm keeping you long per usual, but I just have a couple more, including where you just started. But one quick one before I get to her and what you think of her and what you've learned about her.

Is it, you know, back to sort of the racial component of what's happened here. Is it fair to say that the popularity of a player like Caitlin Clark, the way she plays, if the player had been black, that the needle wouldn't have moved anywhere near as much? I think so. I think it is absolutely fair to say that. You know, I mean, while at the 74% black league, this is, of course, the country that is still predominantly white and majority white. So, I mean, and way above our pay grade, Kevin, we had a presidential election last year, and we have an incredibly polarized society.

I think we can all say as we look at that, whoever you voted for, whoever, whatever. It's a really interesting and polarized and angry time in our country. And this is set against that backdrop. And I deal with that a little bit. The Taylor Swift post about supporting Kamala Harris for president and also urging people to vote. Caitlin Clark liked that tweet and that post. And then I asked her the next day. and she did not say anything about her politics,

but encouraged everyone to vote. Handled it very nicely. Perfectly. But, you know, I think that I also, we had a panel at the University of Maryland, the Poverts Center, where I was a moderator, and there were four people that were on the panel,

all four people of color, two sports editors, and then Brian Osteri again. I asked her to come, the goalkeeper, of course, from the soccer team, and then a mystics assistant at the time, Latoya Sanders. Now she's with Atlanta. And I asked that question, if everything's the same about

Caitlin Clark except her skin color, the shot, the way she hits, went to Iowa, everything. But she's, but she's black instead of white. Is there a difference? What is the difference? And everyone agreed it would be talking about racism, talking about interest, talking just about the unusualness of the white superstar in basketball, a la Larry Bird years ago, those kind of conversations. And yeah, so I do deal with it. I don't. there's really no way to quantify it, you know what I'm saying? But the book, I absolutely shy away from nothing, as you know, in this book. And so I definitely deal with it and happily show.

And I think there's a lot of, you know, I put things out there for people. If I don't have it 100%, like if I'm not going to speculate, there's no, everything is rock solid reported in the book. It's journalism 101, the way I practice, journalism, the way I do journalism. I mean, the word practice, obviously, I think people, I mean that. Yeah. have done for years with the Washington Post and USA Today and CNN, ABC, etc., all the work I've done. And that's it. So I do my best to kind of get at that as well. So you said she's 22 going on

40 or 50. Did you mean by that maturity or is she just an old soul in personality? Yeah, mostly maturity. I mean, but I think a little bit of both because they might even be linked a little, right? Yeah. I mean, just everything's thrown at her. Mike Wise, actually, the holligan friend, when I was talking to him about this, and he had a great quote. I said, you know, we're just chatting, and I end up saying, okay, if I use that, he said, yes, she's the biggest racial wishbone. He thinks we've ever seen in sports, certainly, where, you know, or at least right now, being pulled just like Thanksgiving wishbone, this way and that way, you know, the turkey. Yeah.

Wishbone. And the way she's handled everything is extraordinary. I mean, the calmness, the poise, being asked things that no one was, you know, Tiger Woods when he was this age, you know, he just looked and mope and sit there because, you know, I covered in the length of his career. Yeah. I said. And, you know, I mean, he paid a question. He didn't want to talk about it. He was done with the press conference. Caitlin takes everything, looks you in the eye, gives you a minute. answer and might go off on a tangent to talk a little more. Terrific. Absolutely. Fantastic.

And when things are bad and when she's like Kennedy Carter Sheep shot, she handles that with even more aplomb and more kindness and more thoughtfulness and confidence and just class and dignity. She's extraordinary. She really is. It comes from this deep well family and friends, confidence from playing sports at an early age. It's so important.

Title IX, you know, we're raising athletic daughters and nieces, granddaughters, the way we raised men for generations, right? Boys and men, learning how to lose in a young age, teamwork, sportsmanship, leadership. I mean, we're a much better nation because the other 50% of our country has learned those life lessons because of Title IX because of sports. Even if we're not creating a Katie Ledecki or a Tori Husk or a Caitlin Clark, you know, just someone's playing sports through high school. What she learned, that she never, that her grandmother never had a chance to learn, right? That's where we are as a country. Caitlin is, you know, hey, cut on line 53 years old, Kevin, America, you've fallen in love with what we've created. Here she is, the girl next door all grown up, Caitlin Clark.

All right, we're going to take a quick break more with Christine Brennan on her book on Caitlin Clark after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, we've reached that point on the sports calendar where it is all about baseball. Basketball's in the rearview mirror. Football is still a few weeks away in terms of preseason games. So let's focus on baseball. Step up to the plate with prize picks and add your favorite baseball players to your lineup, whether it's strikeouts, RBIs, or first inning runs. Make your call with more or less and play for your shot to win up to 2,000 times.

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Baseball resumes tomorrow night and all of the NFL futures, prop bets, week one lines, preseason lines. They're all up. Jaden right now is the fifth choice to win the MVP at plus 780. Lamar's the favorite at plus 500. Josh Allen is plus 590. Burroughs plus 600. Mahomes is plus 610. And then Jaden is plus 780. And then there's a major gap between Jaden and Jalen Hertz, who comes after that at plus 1925. So Jaden's really in the mix among the favorites to win MVP in the upcoming season. MyBooky.ag or MyBooky.com. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. We continue with Christine Brennan on her book that is now out called On Her Game, Caitlin Clark, and the Revolution in women's sports.

So one more on her real quickly, because I am curious and I'm a fan of hers. I've watched her interviewed a lot. I've seen her in different stories on TV or on YouTube. She's incredibly thoughtful. I think she's self-aware. She seems to really get it. And she also seems extremely bright.

Is she? Oh, yeah, super sharp. Funny, witty. remembers everyone's name. There was a wonderful moment where a little, you know, I think pregame press, yeah, it was definitely pregame. One of the games, because I then immediately after the Paris Olympics

came back and went right on the road with the fever. So I was around them. I had access to practices that no one else had, lunches, meetings, you know, meeting with people with lunches and dinners. And, yeah, I could ask Caitlin Clark anything. Nothing was off limits. So one day there was a young boy, special needs boy that was with his mom in the front row.

And so Ryan Stevens, the PR man, is calling on people and I asked a question about something. And then Ryan goes the last one and said, called on someone. They go, yeah, I know I'm important, this guy, you know, being funny, you know, no problem. I'm important because, you know, I'm the last one. or say it's something silly. Just to retort back to Ryan, the public relations director. And Caitlin goes, oh, no, no, no, no.

And then he used the boy's name. She said, no, he's the one that's important. He gets the last question. And called him by name, looking at him, and the mom is beaming, Kevin. I mean, you can almost get a tear. And the boy is beaming. And Caitlin is now, I mean, she knew, obviously,

they would have told her this young man was going to be in the press conference. But anyway, so the other guy asked his question, and then Caitlin totally directs herself right to this, you know, right sitting there. She's up on the dais, you know, and looking down from the table. And then the young boy asked his question. And she listened intently. And then, you know, of course, answered it beautifully. And the mom again, it's just so proud.

And I videotaped the whole thing and send it to them just because I could see what was happening, you know, here. I was just right behind them. And, you know, this is just an amazing moment. Caitlin knows his name, savvy enough to even refer to him, have a little jive, but the guy that, you know, poke the guy that is kind of making fun of like, oh, I'm important. No big deal. It had nothing to do with the boy. You know, nothing, not a slight at all, but just a little fun back and forth.

Caitlin, no, no, no, you're not important. This boy using his name is important. I mean, she's about to go play. I think it was like Las Vegas. I mean, it was a huge game that she was about to go play. And she's doing that an hour before tip off. Yeah. Remarkable.

great stuff funny, super funny. And that book, I've got, it sounds like it's all serious. I've got so much Caitlin Clark Magic in this book, so many funny behind the scenes moments. She's running around at a practice, wanting another shot at a half-court shot. No, no, we're not done here. We're not done here.

Yeah. It's like, oh, no, no, Kailen, you're already, you're shot. No, no, I'm doing it again. You know, she's just taking over, and they'll love her for being just the goofy, silly kind of little sister in that that role with the team. Great story. Last one, I promise. What's her upside in terms of a player? Could she become the best player in the league at some

point? Well, I think yes. Well, we saw in college was extraordinary. I didn't hear, I didn't know who she was freshman year. That was COVID too. And so there's, you know, doing whatever we're doing. With that and journalism, obviously so huge in Tokyo Olympics being canceled, right? So I'm just not focused on women's basketball, certainly a freshman in Iowa. Sophomore year, you know, she starts playing great. She had that Michigan game, the pink jersey game, which she hit five threes in the last quarter, and literally four of the five were from the M logo in Ann Arbor, you know, like, what are watching? I saw highlights of that. And then she takes an Iowa team that was good, you know, good, a really, really good coach, Lisa Bluter, you know, decent team hadn't been to the women's

final four and forever, and she takes them not only to two straight final fours, but to two straight finals, literally lift the team on her shoulders. There's no way that Iowa team. Should have been beating South Carolina her junior year the way they did, and then, of course, beating Yukon senior year in both cases to get to the final and then losing those finals. She literally lifts the team on her back and just goes. You know, she's got to stay healthy, and this has been very unusual this year with these injuries she's had. And I know that's taken a toll on her because she's never been, missed one game, sophomore year of high school, never missed another game in high school, college,

AAU or the WMBA until this year. So really strange and really difficult time for her. And, you know, she's still had 13 assists the other night, and she's just played her shooting is off. But, again, you know, she's been injured. So I think she can. I think she's so competitive. She loves it so much.

She loves it so much. She loves, she said, no one likes, if somebody people don't like practicing, I love to practice, she says. Great, great size, great speed. Yes. I think she could. Now, she's got to stay healthy, and she's got to want to keep doing this for 15, 20 years.

The refs also need to figure out, as Rebecca Lobo was saying, there were three fouls on one play on her the other day. Rets have to call it. You want Caitlin Clark to be healthy and stay physically fit and be able to be around the league. You want that for every player. But if the Jordan Rules thing a little bit, so be it. So we'll see.

There's a lot of – there's some caveats here, but absolutely. She has the talent. has the ability to be the best there ever was. Is she now? No. But what we saw in college, greatest score in D-1 history,

male or female, is the magical side of Caitlin Clark, what she brings in fans come flocking, people on TV, never watch her, never watch basketball, and now they know where ion is on their table system, right?

And the NBA TV. All the things that she does, there's a reason for that. And it's because it's just so entertaining and it's also just so darn good. And we'll see in the next couple years that the WNBA can handle it. If the fever can build a team around her that is good and even great and able to help her get to championship games.

But yes, I think anything is possible with Caitlin Clark. The book is on her game, Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports. It's a perfect book for this time of year when you are on vacation. somewhere. I am going to take it with me and read it. I can't wait to. At C. Brennan Sports on X on Twitter. Christine, as always, thank you so much. Best of luck with the book. Kevin, thank you. I always love talking with you, and we'll see if any of these predictions are correct in a couple years. Let's talk again and we'll see how I did. We will. Thanks again.

Thank you, Kevin. Christine Brennan, everybody. This is a book I am definitely going to read. It's the perfect time of year to pick up a book and start it and have the opportunity to finish it. But I have been fascinated with the Caitlin Clark story for a few years now and just completely puzzled as to why this WNBA doesn't embrace this opportunity more than it does. All right, that is it for the day back tomorrow with Tommy.