The Kevin Sheehan Show - More Terry Talk + Keim + Legler

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

Kevin opened with last night's strange stunner in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. He had more on Terry McLaurin as well. ESPN's John Keim jumped on to share his thoughts on the Terry situation along with plenty from OTA days. ESPN's Tim Legler joined Kevin from Oklahoma City with his insight on an insane Game 1 between the Thunder and Pacers. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. There's about a nine-second difference shot clock and game clock. Gildes Alexander spins, pulls up, jumper. Off the mark won't go, rebound knee-smith. The Pacers will a chance to win it.

Final seconds, no fouls to give. Halliburton looking. Halliburton driving, pulls off jump shot. N.K.C. Tyrese Halliburton does it again. An absolute stunner last night in game one of the NBA finals. I did not see that one coming. Tim Legler is in Oklahoma City still.

He'll join me on the show today. John Kime before Tim. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation, windonation.com if you need new windows. Real quickly, I'm going to put a show out tomorrow. I just had Tyler Biotish call in, Washington's starting center. I'm not going to have enough room to put him in today's show,

so I will put out a show tomorrow, a quick show, a short show that will include my conversation with Washington's starting center, and I'll throw Eddie C on that show tomorrow as well. My guy Eddie C will preview the Belmont Stakes, which will be run tomorrow evening. at Saratoga again this year, not at Belmont Park in Elmont, New York. Quick opening segment, because I want to get to Kime and Legler. I'll start with the basketball and then get to Terry McClure a little bit. Look, Indiana last night led one time in a 48-minute game, and it came at the very end on Halliburton's game winner.

The dude has done it throughout the postseason with three-tenths of a second on the clock. Until that moment, for the first 47 minutes, 59 seconds, 59 and 7 tenth seconds, I think I just got it right, right? 47 minutes, 59 and 7 tenth seconds of the game, I never thought Oklahoma City would lose. I bet them last night. At MyBooky, of course, go to MyBooky.orgie. Use my promo code. Kevin D.C., they'll give you a cash bonus. I bought the half point to get it down to nine. And for the first 45 minutes of the game last night, I didn't think there was a chance that I would lose my bet laying nine points.

That's up there, man, on the list of shocking finishes. You know, I always think when I think of games like that, where they seem like foregone conclusions, but end up not being so, I always think of a few games. Two in particular. The Monday Night miracle, for starters, I think we remember that. Brunel hanging in. Go indeed, and the pass is caught for a touchdown by Santana Moss,

and the Washington Redskins finally get into the end zone in 2005. From the 30, Brunel Go on indeed from Morris again, he makes the catch. Wow. Brunel to Santana twice in the final few minutes. Week 2, September 2005, nobody saw that coming. The Cowboys had dominated the game all night long, but they only led 13-0 with just enough time left. Kind of like last night's game in which Oklahoma City was the dominant team,

but they didn't put the lead out to 2530. It was always in that 10 to 15 range. That night back in September of 2005, Week 2, the Cowboys dominated the game. The Redskins seemed like they had no chance of scoring. It was 13 to nothing, and then all hell broke loose. And then the other game I always think about in terms of just absolute out-of-nowhere, stunning finishes, because I was there for this one. January 2001, Cole Fieldhouse, the Gone in 54 seconds game.

Sorry Terps fans about playing this. Too hard with a leaving. It's a five-point game. Who has the ball. You believe what you're seeing? Holy cow. Under 10 seconds to go, guarded by Wood.

Shot clock is off. Picked up his drill. Oh, this is incredible. With less than a minute to go, Maryland was in total control. And now we go to overtime. That's incredible. The late great Mike Patrick on the call.

that night with Brad Doherty. That night at Cole, I mean, it was one of those special nights. The Terps had played so well. They were up 10 with 54 seconds left. And Steve Blake fouled out with just around a minute to go on what was a pretty bad call. And then Marilyn's ball handling issues sort of reared their ugly head. They missed free throws. But still, up 10 with 54 seconds left, 54 seconds left.

and then Duke with Shane Batti and back then he was Jason Williams, not Jay Williams. They turned a raucous 14,500 into dead silence. Never saw that one coming. An absolute devastating loss in overtime to Duke. That was the first of an incredible four matchups between the Terps and Devils that year, including in the final four. Now last night, you know, that kind of fit the bill. Since 1971 in the NBA finals, teams with a nine-plus point lead with three minutes to go were 182 and zero.

After last night, they are one and a hundred and 82. Indiana trailed by 15 in the fourth, nine with three minutes to go. They've done this all postseason. It's their fourth win where the win probability was less than 2% in the final few minutes of the game. And they won anyway. So I shouldn't have been that surprised, but I was because Oklahoma City was just the much better team all night long. It started with an unbelievable first half defensive performance all time, in fact. no team had ever turned the ball over 19 times in a half, but that's what Indiana did against Oklahoma City's defense.

The defense forced these turnovers. I heard people discussing this morning on television. All Indiana had to do was just protect the ball and not be so careless with it. Not so careless. What are you talking about? Oklahoma City just took the ball from them. They had 11 steals in the first half. It was complete domination, but they were only up 12 at halftime. And if you know anything about these NBA playoffs in Oklahoma City, and most of you don't, but I'll tell you, they have turned defense into offense and at high levels. And last night, the 19 turnovers in the first half generated nine points.

It should have generated close to 25 to 3.5 to 3.5. 30 points of offense. When Oklahoma City has played at that level before and it's been most of the postseason, they've had 25, 30 point leads. And that's what the lead should have been. But they couldn't turn their great defense. I mean relentless, just overwhelming, swarming defense into enough offensive points. You check team stats at the end of a game. Last night, 25 total turnovers for Indiana, and the total points that OKC got out of those 25 turnovers, 11. It should have been at least 30 plus, a 19 point difference, and the game would have never, never been in doubt. Why weren't they able to do it?

Number one is Indiana played pretty good defense. Number two is a lot of the turnovers were near the rim rather than out in the open floor. And number three is, I thought Oklahoma City missed a lot of easy shots off turnovers. And then on top of that, when they did run offense because they didn't get anything easy, I thought they shot too quickly. In fact, I really thought all night for a lot of the night, they shot too quickly. They didn't run good half-court offense. They didn't make Indiana work hard enough defensively with all of the extra possessions

that Oklahoma City earned with all of their steals and forced turnovers. And in the game, they had 16 more shot attempts than the Pacers. So, you know, right around, you know, take plus or minus a few. But, you know, figure 15 to 20 extra possessions in the game. and to only turn that into 11 points, I thought they could have worn Indiana out by at least running a little bit more offense, really shortening the game a little bit,

and they would have been better off. I think that's one of the keys going into the game Sunday night. Make no mistake. The defense was unbelievable. The number one reason Oklahoma City blew the lead and lost the game is they didn't generate enough offense off their great defense.

didn't turn the defensive force turnovers steals into a normal amount of points for them. And that's why they lost. Look, give a lot of credit to Indiana because they've got so many dudes that can shoot it. And here's the problem. You know, Oklahoma City had a chance because of the way they defended to have a 25, 30 point lead, the game would have been over. But because it was hovering between 10 and 15 all night, Indiana is. got shooters everywhere.

They went small, you know, and they had Siakum playing kind of at the five, and they've got Turner out on the perimeter, and Nemhardt was outstanding, and Halliburton was not great all night, but obviously super clutch. Kneesmith can shoot. They made 18 to 39 threes, and so many down the stretch, four to five huge threes down the stretch, when the lead still looked comfortable, although it's never comfortable in the NBA nowadays. But they got a balanced effort. They got clutch performances, certainly down the stretch from Nemhard, from Miles Turner, from Neesmith, and of course from Halliburton, from Obie

Toppin as well. And they hung in there. And then they did what they've done previously. They started making a bunch of shots, and they were within striking distance, and amazingly, they won the game. Great job by Rick Carlisle, not to call. a timeout to allow Oklahoma City to set their defense on the final possession of the game. Shea Gilgis Alexander, I'll just say this. He had 38 points on 14 of 30 from the floor, three for six from behind the arc, had five rebounds, three assists, three steals. I didn't think it was a great game for him. That's hard to say when somebody goes for 38, five, three, three steals, and only turns it over twice with as much as he handles the ball and shoots 14.

to 30, three for six from behind the arc, seven of eight from the free throw line. I thought he was too rushed early in the game, took too many quick shots. The whole team did. Jalen Williams really missed a ton of shots in the first half that would have helped them. Chet Holmgren was essentially MIA, in part, though, because they took quick shots and he wasn't a part of the offense as much as maybe he could have been. Look, I'm a big SGA fan. the shot that he had at the very end of the game, up 110-109, that would have given them a three-point lead, was his shot.

Mid-range, you know, working his way into a spot that he loves, you know, leaning back, you know, falling back, you know, on a fadeaway, you know, mid-range jumper, and he just missed it. Halliburton made it. He missed it. They would have been up three in that particular instance. just, I mean, I just, I couldn't believe what I was watching. I think anybody that was watching that game, even though you've seen Indiana do it before, it was still a shock when Indiana took the lead with three-tenths of a second left for their only lead of the night. A lot of talk, and I'll certainly talk to Legler about this, the lineup change that they made. I mean, they were a prohibitive favorite for the series, a big favorite in game one. they insert Kaysen Wallace for Isaiah Hartenstein so that they didn't have the two bigs against

Indiana's team, man, that is, you know, sort of giving in before you even throw the ball up and tip it off in game one for the team that's been pretty much unstoppable in the postseason. And yet they, you know, essentially said to Indiana, yeah, we need to play you guys a little bit differently. I picked O KC and five. That can still happen, but I don't think it will. I still like Oklahoma City in this series. I suggested yesterday with Tom that Indiana could win two, but I didn't think they'd win two. I think they'll win two now, but I'll amend that now to Oklahoma City in six. Clearly they've got to win Sunday night game two, and they are a big favorite, an 11-point favorite at mybookie.orgie.orgia or dot com.

That's a bigger number than last night. That happens sometimes because they sort of factor in, you know, the visiting team got the, you know, one game that they needed in the first two and maybe they'll relax a little bit. But Indiana didn't do that after they beat New York in game one when they had that incredible comeback in game one of the Eastern Conference finals to win on that incredible shot that forced overtime by Halliburton 138, 135. I think it was an OT. They came back in game two on the road and won that game too. There's a little bit of destiny here with the Indiana Pacers. I still think Oklahoma City is great, and their defense just was a pleasure to watch.

It's halacious. It is in your face. They get hands on balls. They deflect passes. They're in passing lanes. Even if you go buy them, watch out. You know, somebody else is going to help out. or somebody like Dorts going to chase it down and knock the ball out of somebody's hands or block a shot anyway.

You know, that's the other thing that, you know, in addition to the 25 turnovers that they forced, you know, in the 14 steals 11 in the first half, they also had six block shots, four of which came in the first half. They've got to turn their defense into more offense, which was why they lost last night. And I think when they don't get something easy in transition, they got to make. Indiana work a little bit more on defense. All right, real quickly on Terry McCorn. I want to read a couple of emails. This from Gary 01.

Kevin, if they let Terry leave, this will be the worst look the franchise has had under Josh Harris. Gary 0-1, they can't, Terry can't leave. Okay, he's under contract in 2025. He can't leave. He's not a free agent. He could hold out. I don't see that happening.

This from Rob, Sheehan, if they don't extend Terry, watch all of the fan goodwill evaporate in seconds. Really, after 14 wins and nearly a Super Bowl trip last year, if they don't get Terry signed to a contract extension, all of the goodwill is going to evaporate? I don't think so. And then this from Stephen, a slightly different take. Scary Terry is a really good receiver, Kevin,

but not worth 30 million a year heading into his 30s. Honestly, the only regret they should have if they don't get him signed to a contract extension is that they should have gone out and gotten a free agent wide receiver like Devante Adams. It's June 6th, everybody. Relax. They're going to sign Terry McClureen. I would be shocked if they don't sign Terry. I really would be shocked.

This is a player they love. He loves it here. This is a, you know, we've got a shot at a Super Bowl season coming up. He's huge in that effort. And by the way, that gives him a lot of leverage, no doubt. As I discussed yesterday, it's a tricky situation because he's a great receiver, but he's not elite. You know, he's not Chase. He's not Jefferson.

He's not A.J. Brown, he's not. He's in the next tier, all right? and he's older than a lot of these guys who have recently gotten deals. It's not a top three deal. It's not $33, $34 million. It isn't. It just isn't. It's probably 30.

I'm sure the frustration stems over maybe either overall money or years or both. I'm going to talk to John about that coming up. But look, I put a poll out today on Twitter. concern level about Terry McCorn's frustration level over contract extension. The three options were very concerned, kind of concerned, no worries it'll get done. I was pleasantly surprised to see 74.2% of the respondents say no worries, it'll get done. That is where I am. No worries, this is going to get done. Here's the worst case, just so everybody understands.

he's not holding out and they're not going to trade him. The worst case is that they don't get a deal done and he plays 2025 on the last year of his deal trying to get to free agency next year where Washington, of course, could franchise him. That's the worst case. I don't think it'll happen. Remember, and I mentioned this yesterday, he didn't sign his extension in 2022 until June 28th, and he missed mandatory mini-camp that June as well. This will get done.

It's a little bit trickier when you're 20, when you're 30, going on 30 versus going on 27. But I think they will figure it out. We'll see what John Kime thinks. And we will do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, who's hungry? I've got an idea for you. How about a pizza from one of the most iconic pizza places in the village? or a cheese steak from one of Philadelphia's best.

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and he's been doing it for the majority of the time for ESPN. So I just told you that whenever I have a guest on, I'll quickly scroll through their Twitter account, their ex account before we start. And I just read this from John. And this was my response this morning on radio. John tweeted earlier this morning, freaking out over a player not here in June because of a contract situation is dot, dot, dot, not. healthy. Carry on. That was my response this morning as well. It's like people, it's June 6th. Are you kidding me? He didn't sign his last deal until June 28th, Miss Mandatory Minicamp, but I'll let you have at it on the Terry McLauran report yesterday that he is frustrated with contract talks.

Well, first of all, D-Day wasn't not today, right? It was the fifth, June 5th, June 6th, 1944, yeah. Correct, right. So this is not, you know, the football version of D-Day. So, you know, let's, so there is that, but like, put the report, like, okay, an agent saying that his client, you know, or spreading word that his client is frustrated, like, big shocker. You know what I mean? And so, so there is that. Like, what, over the last several years, how many players have we heard are frustrated?

one out, this and that, this and that, this and that, and then they sign. They are, you know what I mean? So let's, you know, not that there aren't issues to be resolved, not that there may not be some, you know, tough stances on both sides. Like, can they mend those? That's what has to happen. But, you know, it's funny because, like, and there with a freak out stuff, there's, like, you know, you start to see, like, oh, the Chargers have their eyes on McCorn.

Like, good Lord, it's June 6th. Do you really think they're going to start to look at that now? You know what I mean? Like, you know, things like that and, like, fans like, oh, they better not trade. I'm like, come on. And then there's the pay carry. It's June 6th. You know, they need to work out a deal that's best for both sides.

Not one, both. So, you know, there's, you know what I mean? like you have, people are worried about one, they got 53 to worry about. And clearly he's very important here. Nobody would dispute that. But, you know, I just, I just think like, yeah, it's way, it's way too early to freak out. So here's what I would ask you, and here's what I contemplated kind of in the open to the show. Is there a time in which you would be concerned about Terry playing either on a one last year of his deal or on a contract extension. Is there a point in which you would be concerned and where and when would that point be?

I'm concerned that they wouldn't get it done. Yes. I don't know that I'm at that point where I think there's like a time where they're like, oh, if they don't have one by this time, then watch out. because, as we know, like, it can happen at any time. Unless he comes out and says, I will not negotiate beyond this date. And even then, like, things always still happen. You know what I mean?

Although I will say, like, you know, with cousins, like, you go back to that point, like, there was a certain point. Like, you know, that will, that we guess it was July 15th because of the franchise stuff. Right. But, you know, I don't know if there's a specific date yet, I think there are markers along the way, and clearly if there's not something done by training camp, that's the problem. You know, because then you start to hold out, and how many times do we see hold out?

I don't, and let me say that I don't know that he'd be holding out or not. Like, let's say, you know, I don't know that at this point. You know, what we know is the last time the deal got done before training camp, and so he only missed the mandatory mini-camp. But let's say it carries into training camp. That's when you start to say, okay. You know, is this going to be a problem, you know, for a team that didn't have any problems last year? And will it, will it, too often you see guys who, if there's a holdout, you see guys who maybe don't do as well that you're following the holdout.

So, you know, but that's like, I don't know that, that's a hard thing to predict. But so I don't know, Kevin, I don't know if there's a time, like, if you get to the middle of training camp and it's not signed, like, clearly there's a big issue. But don't forget, like Adam Peters worked in San Francisco where they got things done even late in August at times with, I think it was there with IUK, he wasn't there with IUC, but like there have been previous situations where the Niners would get it done in August. Right.

So I don't know, like, that's always, you know, people need to keep that mind. Like, this is not the first time that he's dealt with this stuff, not that he was in charge of it, but he was part of it. And so, you know, but that's when, listen, man, if he's not there for the first game, that's a problem. I don't think we'll be at that point. But, you know, because I don't know, Kevin, I don't know. I kind of danced and walked around that, but I just don't know if there's a point because I haven't heard yet. You know, and plus, if somebody told me that now, I'll believe it when I see it, right?

Like, it's easy to say things two months ahead of time. And I'm not saying anybody is, but like, if someone told me now, like, oh, they don't sign him by August 12th, Terry's not signed in the deal. Well, let's see what happens on August 11. Are you closer to it? You know what I mean? So I think it's a little bit early to really go down that road from me. By the way, do you think the reporting was accurate that there is some frustration level,

or is this just the agent trying to, you know, create some leverage? Oh, I think it's probably a little bit of both. I mean, you know, I would say this. I don't think anybody's talked to Terry. so you're you're saying um but um so i think there's probably i mean who listen man my contract's up for ESPN in a couple months like you know i'd like it done right now too you know so um i think there's always going to be a level of frustration if it's not done because every player wants it done right away and you know um sometimes throughout the the process like you then have to look at it

like this becomes an investment. And what is the best investment here for the team? Like, you don't just pay a guy automatically what they want. That's not smart business because you have other guys who come up and like you just pay everybody what they want. Then suddenly you can't afford certain guys because you've done that, right? So I just, I don't know. So is there a level of frustration?

Probably because Terry McClearn, I'm sure he would like to be here and like to have it all done. But I also think, like, you know, why, let me say this, like, why would somebody let that out now? What's the purpose of that? Well, it's doing what it's done. Look at all the fans. Hey, Terry, you know? Like, there's a purpose behind that.

So the team has been very quiet. Yeah, let's wrap it up on Terry with this. Just your hunch. When does it get done and what does it look like when it gets done? So what it looks like is going to be interesting because that's a hard part here. I agree. So I talked to Joel Corey about this, you know, the CAP, GOO, you know, on CBS, very, very smart with all this stuff and asking, like, what would be a good comp for him? Because, you know, and his comp was, D.K. Metcalf.

And that was, I think you got like three years, $30 million a year from the Steelers. I think it's $60 guaranteed. And there's similar numbers over their career. And the last two years, I'd say Terry's put up better numbers. And last year, he finally had a good quarterback to play with. And so, but their career numbers are pretty similar. The difference, though, is D.K. is two years younger. And they are the same draft class, the two years younger.

The 30-year-old marker for Terry is going to be a negotiating point. Yes. Because that, and that's, you cannot escape that. And, you know, from his perspective, you can look and say, listen, like, look what he did at, you know, at 29 with a quarterback for the first time. And is he still, like, he stays healthy? He takes care of himself. He works on his game. He's a true pro.

Like, can you see his game aging? Well, yeah. Like, for how long? Is it two years? You know, where he's going to be at a certain level? Three years. You know, where then you look at, like, you know, like, he's going to be at, like, he's a game aging well, yeah. You know, then you look at like Mike Evans still at a high level.

What he'd get from the bucks, two years 21 per. So is there, you know, where do you see him? Right? He's two years younger than Mike Evans. But, like, you know, when Evans got that deal, he was like about the same age. So, you know, so I think like that to me is going to be the hard thing is to rectify, you know, to get to that agree. Again, if I'm curious, I'm like, all right, look what he did with Jane Daniels, 13 touchdown. They do some catches.

You know, really good year. And so can you say if he's still ascending, is he just, you know, how long is he going to be at this level? Then the other part is, all right, let's say you don't get something done. Well, what do you got? You know, do they have a number one guy? No, they don't. Like, Debo Samuels are really good, could be a really good Swiss Army night for them,

but he's not your number one receiver. and then for Terry, like, okay, is he more valuable here than he might be somewhere else? I don't know. So those are all things that you look at. But the first part of that question was, you know, when do you think it'll get done? You'll you think it'll get done. I think it'll get done because I think, listen, man, like, they need each other. They're good together.

It makes no sense to not get it done. You know, McCorn has a really good quarterback to work with finally. and then these guys know, like, you really want to do something on offense? Could you ultimately eventually replace McCorn? Well, sure. Not right now, though. Not what, but, you know, you don't have that guy on the roster. Like, Jaden is a really good quarterback, and so many guys had their best year last year,

in part because of Daniels and then Cliff Kingsbury. So, like, those two are still here, so they can still, but you'd be missing that dude you know what I mean? So like it makes sense for them to get it done. And it makes sense for McCorn to get it done because he's in a good spot here. He is the guy. He's beloved in the community. If he goes, like if he, let's say, let's say in a wild scenario, like, okay, you go somewhere else, right?

Like, well, he's not the same guy somewhere else. I mean, in terms of like his impact of community, fan base, et cetera, as he is here. Like, how much is that worth? I don't know. But I do know, like, they're better together. than a part. And so ultimately, I do think it gets done. Yeah, I do too. All right. Is there any angst or annoyance from the coaching staff that Marciaun Latimore hasn't posted for any OTA day yet?

Not just any OTA for anything yet. And it's all, again, voluntary. We all know that. it's hard to like I definitely think they'd like him here just to you know I don't I don't know that it's hard for me to say that there's annoyance with it like I think we all know that the coaches

would prefer him to be here but they also they also know like this is what he did his last couple years in the world right he did not go to the OTAs then either so I think they'd be far more annoyed if he

come doesn't come into camp in shape and healthy. Jeremy, like, so that, to me, will be the key. If he does that, they'll be fine. If he doesn't do that, then you should be pissed. So, you know, but I, you know, yeah. What about Tunsel? Yeah.

He was here a little bit. The difference between, like, a Tunsel and Latimore is the work you can get in in camp. And what you're doing now without this alignment is, like, you're not, there's no contact, right? So you're not really, like, you're not going against a full rush. I mean, you are going against guys because, like, the other day, they're 11-on-11, but, you know, there's no pads and all that.

You can start to get used to the guy next to you, and right now that's Brandon Coleman, would be next to him. And so, like, there's value in that, getting to know guys, but, again, he didn't go to the OTA stuff a lot in Houston either. And I think, like, the one benefit, to being here now is just like in getting to know guys. But the other stuff, like, I think they still feel pretty good about him. So, you know, I think that's, I think he's in a different category because, again, like, the corners,

you can get really good work as a corner and as a receiver in these camps because you have way more one-on-one. It's a really good point. Really good point. I haven't thought of that over the years. That's an excellent point compared to O-line and D-line. Is there still a chance that there's another big personnel ad like a Trey Hendrickson? I don't think so.

I think like you could, there are definitely some guys on the market, you know, the Von Miller's, Founny, the Darius. I think one of those guys would be way more likely than some big bombshell trade. And I don't know that that's going to happen because, like, they feel pretty good about what they have. And I think, you know, certainly see what this, I don't, I don't sense any urgency on their side, and I don't sense any urgency on the, those three players are named side.

Right. Because how many veterans, like, look at what Aaron Rogers did. They just sign right before minicamp, right? Like, wait to the last minute possible to get in there. Right. And the quarterback, you kind of have to. But it depends on, like, let's say you go, like, let's say they go get Von Miller, or, all right, what do you get

to ask them to do? Go get the passer on third down. Okay, I can do that. You know what I mean? Like, you don't need to be here now. So there's no urgency for their side, and I don't think there's any urgency on this side either. And I think it's part of it's like, see what you got first, see what you really need first before you go out and do anything else. And, you know, like, there's no, there's no premier pass rushers still on the open market.

I know Hendrickson is available, but I don't see that as a realistic possibility unless something dramatic changes. You feel the same way about running back? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anybody.

I don't know, like, who are running back would be a guy that would be really... Take a flyer on a chub or J.K. Dobbins, if the medical look good? Yeah, that would have, which is a big app. And, like, listen, man, I think you know my background. with J.K. Dobbins really like him. The injury stuff is there, and then with Chubb, you know, like watch what he did in Cleveland, man. He is phenomenal, and the Browns went out and got two guys.

So, like, that always would serve me a little bit. But the question would be, is, are they better than what you have? We know they were better than what you have, but are they still better? And sure. I'd also like to see, like, what does, I always think, he loves Bill. So I just say Bill Croskey Merritt. Like Bill Croskey Merritt, like I like the ring of Dekori Crosky Merit.

Like that has a good ring to it. Bill Crosky Merit, a little bit different, but he likes Bill. So Bill, let's see what he looks like in Camp first. Like, is he a guy that because he misses last year, is there some, like, did they really find a big gem in that round or what? And we won't know that answer. So I don't know. I don't know that I see that at this point.

But, you know, and I also think, Kevin, like, how much will that run game be helped by the improved O line? And is that enough to maybe get it to a better point? And Brian Roberts, I think he's like, he's a good, hard runner, but there are limitations. And I think he needs a good line to be more effective. All right. It's early. It's June 6th. It is the time of year where, you know, I talked about it earlier this week.

We get the proclamations on players like Antonio Gandy Golden and Thaddeus Moss. And I mean, the list goes on and on. I know. People like us have had to deal with these people saying, oh, my God, did you see the viral video? The video that went viral with Antonio Gandy Goldman? Or what was the JMU Corner? Oh, Moreland. Oh, my God. People fell in love with Morland. My God. I mean, but, you know, with that said, it's June 6th. We are still here producing content. So is there a name or two that you're hearing that they're kind of excited about, that they're kind of geeked about? Are you talking about like the unknowns? Yeah, of course, the unknowns.

I mean, if there's somebody from last year that just played a little bit, you know, it can be a known. I'll tell you what, like, I think like Javante Jean-Baptiste, now he's a rotational guy. Yeah. But he's a guy that I think there's like, I think they like how he's developing. And now, as a starting end, maybe not. But as a rotational guy, I think there's like some feeling good there. So, like, he would be a guy with drop there because, like, you know, somebody would be undrafted right now. It's really hard to say.

I don't know, like, a lot of fans are, like, all over to Cory Brooks, and I can't say that there's, like, you know, somebody wrote something about how there's his buzz about in the national, like, I don't know that I've heard any buzz. You know, like, let's see what, let's see what looks like next week and let's you what looks like in the summer before you go that point. Chorri Brooks, the receiver from Louisville, who they gave some guaranteed money to. Yeah, and you know, which only means it's a little bit more expensive to put him on the track squad. I think receiver is going to be an interesting spot. It's going to be hard to make it there because you do have depth.

And so I think that, like, he's a guy that could be interesting. Let's see what happens, but I can't say that right now. It's like, oh, my God, wait until you see him. Like, it's funny because Anthony Anson was a guy years ago who had this great spring, and you're like, yeah, yeah, I've seen this before. But he was really good in the spring, and then he went and made the roster, and he caught 40-some passes. Like, he was a rarity for how he carried it through, but you saw it in the spring.

I don't know that I've seen anything like to that extent. You know, try to think of some other guys, like, you know, just Tyler Owens take a jump, you know, like, played well last year. Yeah, like I like him. I like him as a special teams guy. Yeah. But they're true, like, what I like in the spring is they're experimenting with them, put him in the slot. See what he does here.

He was there. And I think, like, he's a guy to watch. I don't know where it goes, but he's a guy to watch. So there's a handful of guys like that. And, like, again, Giovante Jean-Bette. John Beckett, Jordan McGee, another one. Like, that's the guy that, if you really want to watch a guy take a step, it could be him. And, you know, they had packages for him last year that because he got hurt, they obviously couldn't get to.

And so, but he looks, he looks good. He looked good last summer. I mean, he's, you know, he looks good. So that's a guy to watch that you can go, you know this. Like, and I would give people, they need to use more three linebackersets. We can only use those against certain looks. But against those looks now, they can use it. And they had to use Michael Walker last year, who was not as effective and doesn't run as well,

or they'd use a big safety in those roles, not as effective against the run. But now if you have that guy who can do it, like, you're just more effective. You know, so he's another one to watch the lower, I guess, lower, not end, I don't want to say lower end, but like some of the less, more under the radar type guy. But, you know, and he's a guy that eventually, ultimately, maybe next year, it takes over for Bobby Wagner. So I think it would be interesting to watch McGee development for sure. The other day, Joe Witt Jr. and even Dan Quinn, they were really giddy about Duran Payne. And I'm wondering whether or not it was legitimate, genuine excitement, or this is part of the way they're going.

to motivate him and manage him into a much better season? Which of the two? Well, I would lean more to the latter, but maybe, you know, maybe it's part of both. Because this is a big year for Duran.

Yes, it is. They can cut them. You've got a big cap number next year, and there you go. But I do think it's a bit of both. I think they've been very happy with what they've seen, but I

also think they have to know and they do know how important he is if they can get him back to where he was a couple years ago when his contract, when he was up for the contract. So, you know, you do that now, now, like he and Johnny Newton, I think are two weak guys

in that interior. You know, if all these guys assigned, if those two produce, you're in much better shape, especially for the pass rush. So maybe I do think there's legitimacy to it, but I hadn't thought about the other part because I, you know, that's, I mean, that could also

be a definite part of it. But I do think that there's, I do think they feel really good about what they've seen in the offseason with him. And the heart part, too, is that you know, okay, he's done this for a while. What, what, how will that translate to improvement in his game? Like that's, you know, like what, what does it look like there? But to this point, I do think they feel pretty good about it. All right. Great job. Appreciate it. Hope you're well. Talk to you soon.

Thanks, Kevin. John Kime, everybody. Tim Legler next after these words from a few of our sponsors. It can be hard for men to deal with hair loss, even though it's common. Luckily, I'm here to provide you with a solution so you don't even have to talk about it. Through Hymns, you can restore your hair by accessing their personalized hair loss solutions. HIMS provide you with convenient and quality access to a range of hair loss treatments that work, all from the comfort of your couch. Hymns makes treating hair loss simple with doctor-trusted options and clinically proven ingredients. Choose from personalized chewable, oral, spray, and serum

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Tim Legler from Oklahoma City, where he was part of Scott's Sports Center following game one. Last night between the Pacers and the Thunder, I've said this many times about Tim. I think he is just flat out the best basketball analyst on television, called a bunch of playoff games for ESPN,

and now a part of the post game on ESPN with Scott. I described the game in the open of the show as one of the strangest, also thrilling games I've seen in a long time, but one in which I never thought until basically Halliburton hit the game winner that Oklahoma City would lose the game. You were there. How do you describe it? I agree. I'm watching the game, and I'm, of course, preparing to do post-game, and so I'm making a lot of notes, and at no point. did my narrative that I was kind of creating in my head about what I wanted to talk about

involved the Pacers. At no point. This was all about OKC. And until they start shipping away, and I would say the first time I thought to myself, damn, like this could actually come down to like a last shot of a game, was when Neesmith hit that corner three,

like running 100 miles an hour to the right corner, and I just know from experience how difficult it is to run it, facing the baseline toward that corner, and be able to turn pivot and keep your feet inbound, not step on the line, any of that, and then make a contested shot. It was an incredibly difficult shot. He cut it to six.

Yeah. With two and a half minutes to go. If he misses that shot, it's a ninth point game, Oklahoma City rebound that ball, they go down and let's just say they score two or a three, it's 11 or 12 with two minutes to go. The game is over. Indiana is not winning that game.

He hits that shot at 6 with 2.5 minutes to go. That's kind of when I first thought. Oklahoma City is starting to look unsure. They're starting to look like they want the clock to run out. And that's when I was like, and even then, Kevin, of being honest, I thought, okay, she's going to win this game, obviously. even, well, even as Halliburton's coming up the floor, you're like, okay, even now, if they just get this stop, they're going to win the game, regardless of everything that happened leading up to it.

So it's one of the most improbable wins I've seen, and it looks like I'm saying this a lot anymore, particularly as it relates to the Pacers, this may be second to what I saw in game one against the Knicks. I don't know if I'll ever see anything like that again with what Neesmith did at the end of that first. game in New York, and then they go on to win that game in overtime. 17-point deficit, you know, nine with whatever the time was left in that game, inside of a minute, that was probably the number one thing I've seen out of the Pacers this year, and this is a close second. I'm going to come back to this game in a moment, but you just reminded me of something.

I had Randy Whitman on the show about a week and a half ago. And one thing that I've said, probably with you before, I've said, you know, today's 20-point lead is 15 years ago's 10-point lead. And we see these big deficits overcome, you know, so many times and so many times in this postseason. And he agreed with me, and then I said, why do you think that is? So I'll ask you, A, do you agree with me? And B, if you do, why is it that way now? Why is a 20-point lead the same as a 10-point lead was 15 years ago? So, first of all, I want to say, it's not even a matter of you and I agree.

I don't think it's even debatable, but what you just said is true. Right. Like, if you come at me from a different direction on that argument, you just don't know what you're talking about, because it's obvious that that's the case. And three-point volume is part of that. There's more guys on the floor that shoot that shot that's made. for them than there's ever been, just by that. When you've got three or four guys on the court at all times offensively,

they can make a three-point shot, there's more opportunities to be able to string those together to cut into a league quicker. So that's one reason. The other reason is I think there's a complete disregard by teams for time and score. And it's so situational we grew up learning the game that you can play a certain style for 42 minutes, 44 minutes, that's fine, and to play to your identity. I got news for you. You do change your style when it's time to win the damn game, and you value possessions

more and shot quality more. Like, those things matter, and these teams play, and I'll give you a perfect example. Game one, Boston, New York this year. Right. Boston took 63s. Yeah. They took at least, I'm going to say, 10 three-point shots in the first seven, eight seconds of the clock with a 20-point lead. What the hell are you doing?

You're extending the game for the team that's trying to come back. So does that mean you go four corners? I bring Phil Ford out to dribble the ball around? I love Phil Ford. I hated him, but I don't know. Yeah, right. But you don't think you don't go into like, like, you know, super conservative mode where you're burning. up 20 seconds and taking bad shots at the end of the clock.

That's not what I'm saying. But the same shot that you liked in the first six seconds of the clock is not the same shot you should like when you're trying to win a game in the last five minutes. And there's been a complete disregard for that to the point where when you have these debates with people, especially the analytics guys, they're the ones that drive you nuts. They'll insist. Well, this is just what we do.

Well, then you're going to blow games. Yeah. Because you have to adjust for time and score and start doing the math on it. And that's those two things combined. Teams don't value time and score and how to end the game properly and adjust your offense and your shot selection to the lead in the time. And there's just the volume of three-point shots and the number of guys on the court that can do it,

I mean, there's more opportunities every trip for somebody to be open that can make a three. It makes for incredibly exciting, you know, comebacks and basketball. And when you're watching these games, no lead is safe. And that wasn't what it was when you played or even, you know, 10 or 15 years ago. But yeah, I'm with you on all of those fronts. So let's go back to last night for a moment. Now, I want to go through it chronologically and start with the first half. You and I were texting back and forth, and I said to you, that's one of the greatest defensive halves I think I've ever seen at the NBA level.

How would you describe what Oklahoma City was defensively in the first half? Well, they were what I described him as, which is they swarmed defensively to the lane, very similar to dropping food into a fish tank. And that's what they look like when the ball gets in that area. So what I saw was them being themselves, and Indiana almost not adjusting quick enough to it being in real time playing this team. I know they played them twice in the regular season, and they saw them obviously a lot on film, and you try to prepare for that. They were actually looked caught off guard by the extent to which Oklahoma City of the quickest with which they recover. and I'll tell you, I thought there were three main areas of where Indiana was showing this. One, they had to have at least four pocket passes stolen.

Pocket passes being when you come off a ball screen, and the big guy slips down the lane toward the rim after the screen, and the guard comes off and throw what we call a little pocket pass. It's a little bounce pass into the big rolling to the rim to catch it and hopefully get something up toward the basket. they had four of those by my account stolen. Because note, I've never seen a group of guys defend those on switches where now the guard switches onto the big,

and even if they're trailing the big down the lane, their hands are low. When you put the ball on the ground on a bounce pass around Oklahoma City in the lane, it's going to get deflected. Those passes on, they have to throw up high against that team because Caruso and Wallace and Williams and Dort, their hands are down there. And that's so they had four of those, and they didn't adjust to it. The other area was entering the ball to Seacum when he had a smaller guy on him.

And you saw a nightmare from Minnesota with Julius Rand on the last round. How many turnovers trying to force it into him being guarded by a smaller guy? So what they do is they dance around you. So Seacom's back. They're trying to get leverage, but these guys are so quick. They're baiting you into it. They're leaning on his left side. but as soon as the ball is released from the fingertips to the pass,

or they dance around to the other side, behind the guy they're so quick they get the steal. They had two or three of those. And then the last one, offensive rebounds, kicking up balls in the lane or maybe the loose ball. And not understanding, you're about to get raked by three guys. If you don't understand that that's what they do on offensive rebounds because all five of their guys are in the lane on defensive rebounding,

they're raking the hell out of the ball. So I felt like Bassler in and Miles Turner like just looks so feeble to picking up a loose ball. Like they're going to go up like they're as if they're like at the day spa. It's like you're playing a bunch of piranhas. And so for me, it was about Indiana being an almost like shock over this level of speed and aggressiveness with which they were of being fake. And it led to all these turnovers and like just a weakness. It looked like weak basketball on their part.

That's to me what I saw. Obviously, Oklahoma City had a lot to do with it. To give them all the credit, as you just did, I'm just looking at from the other standpoint. What was Indiana doing to contribute to that? And I thought it was mainly those three areas. That's great stuff. Really, really insightful.

You know, it actually leads to this, because I know you said this with Scott last night after the game, and to me, it was the ultimate key to the game. game, which was they didn't use their defense. They didn't turn their defense into enough offense. We've both watched all of these Oklahoma City playoff games. You've called some of them. And it's like when they play that way, they're usually up 30. They're up 25 to 30 at halftime. They were up 12. They had turned those 19 takeaways, 11 takeaways, 19 turnovers into nine points. It should have been three times that, you know, based on what they've typically did.

done. And what you just said may have been part of the reason for it is a lot of the steals and the turnovers weren't out on the perimeter, which then ends up in an easy dunker and easy layup. They were closer to the rim. Correct. That's exactly, to summarize what I just said, the majority of their turners, and even they had two back court violations. Okay, well, guess what? Oklahoma City takes it out on the side. Yeah, right. Those other ones, they were loose baller, they call live ball turnovers, which as opposed to like a travel or a carry or an offensive foul, and they had two or three of those,

where you're taking the bottom of bounds. Live ball turnovers is the action continues, bad pass, get stripped, that kind of stuff. They were happening within six, eight feet of the rim, which meant much more difficult to get out of that because there was a lot of traffic. they get kind of muddied up, they couldn't get out with numbers. And when they did, they missed some shots.

They missed two or three. They did. Shots at the rim with numbers. They missed two or three open threes that they like to take in transition. So out of the totality of it, it was not a normal conversion for Oklahoma City. The opportunities weren't there. Do you understand this is a team that typically most nights, it's a minimum of a point per turnover force? a lot of nights it's like a point in a half.

So like a 20 turnover game, and this was the first half only for Indiana. For an entire game, 20 turnovers against Oklahoma City is usually 20 to 30 points. Yeah. They had 11 in the game, nine at halftime off 20 turnovers, only two in the second half. It to me was the story of the game. It was not the avalanche of conversion off of your mistake. that demoralized the hell out of you. And it also blows the roof off the building.

They didn't do it. It's weird because it's an anomaly. Just go look, pull up their schedule, and just click on the box score, one after another in the postseason, and go to team stats and look at points. Turnovers and points off turnovers. Yeah.

It's damn there every night. It's at least a point per turnover or more. They had 25 turnovers that led to 11 points. That's like 0.4. two or something. Yeah. That's just not Oklahoma City style, and it to me allowed them to keep floating with their head above water because they weren't knocked out of the game in the second quarter, which they should have

been. Yeah, and I think, you know, the fact that a lot of those live ball turnovers weren't on the perimeter, which would have been easy, you know, conversions off turnovers as a part of it. But let me just take it a step further because I talked a little bit about this. and I did not hear you talk about this necessarily last night, but I'm curious, of course, as to what you think. I thought even after turnovers, steals, et cetera, in the first half, when they didn't have, you know, an opportunity on a runout and a fast break opportunity,

I still thought they shot too quickly. What did you think? Yeah, I definitely would agree with that. It's weird because I thought that for portions of the game, and then at the end of the game, I thought they were, looked very uncertain and unsteady and, like, not sure exactly what to do offensively. A little bit paralyzed for what was happening to them,

but I do think they shot a little bit too quickly in the beginning of the game. There's no way in hell. That should have been a 12-point game at halftime. No. That should have been a 25-point game. Agreed. And it's 12, and you're going, they're walking off the court,

and I'm saying it must have some weird, because right now, I think Dagmalt is thinking, yeah, we should be up more, but at the same time, we completely gutted them. Like, they couldn't run anything against us. I feel really good about that, and we'll convert more in the second half. So he felt okay, being up 12. Carlisle was thrilled to be down 12. Frived.

She had to get that locker room. He had to get that locker room and be like, guys, I don't know what that was. I don't recognize that team, you know, offensively, that we just, were. So we're down 12 points. Like, we're okay, man. Let's just calm the hell down and value the basketball, understand how active they are and some of the passes are not going to be available to us and be more careful with it. And the shots that are going to be there are the threes off of penetration because they overreact to every drive. And there's going to be shots to be had. Let's just settle down, get something up on the backboard, and every trip, and we're going to be okay

in the game. And even despite that, look, they're down 15 with nine minutes ago. Right. So they still had to dig out. But my point is, you're down 25 points. You have a totally different vibe starting the third quarter. And what you just said, like, it's just, for me, whenever, you know, one of my teams that I'm rooting hard for, and I was with Oklahoma City last night, but, you know, in the college game, you see a lot more of kind of really careless turnovers a lot of the times. And I'm like, Jesus, a bad shot would have been better than that turnover. Just get it up on the rim and on the glass. And we're better off than turning it over. And yeah, I mean, I guess you kind of just pointed out what the difference was in the second half.

They kind of settled it down. There is a lot of, you know, drive-bys on close-outs. They figured that part out. But, you know, before, I don't want to get to Sunday yet because I still have a little bit more on last night. I want to ask you how you thought the league MVP played last night for the Thunder. And we will do that. We'll continue with Tim right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, a gift idea for dad, and it is a unique one. It's really cool, actually. The name of the product is Storyworth Memoirs. It's a way to capture Dad's favorite memories for your family to keep forever. Here's how it works. Each week, Storyworth will email your father or a loved one close to your father, a memory-provoking question that you get to help pick. Questions like, did you ever get in trouble in school? Or, you know, tell us,

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slash sheen. That's storyworth.com slash sheen to save $15 on your order. If you want to help us make this a better and healthier podcast, a rate and review the show, especially on Apple and Spotify, and follow us. button or hit the follow button on Apple and Spotify. We continue with Tim Legler, who's in Oklahoma City. He'll be a part of the post game with Scott after game two on Sunday night. Before we look ahead to game two and the rest of the series, I wanted to ask you how

you thought the MVP played last night. What did you think of the game that SGA had? I thought overall, look, he wasn't. He wasn't like his best, but yeah, I thought he played well, and I thought he was the one guy on their team that looked normal. Like, he looked like he's having a normal offensive game. I can't say that about Jalen Williams. I can't say that about, I mean, Chad Honger, my goodness, I mean, you know. Yeah.

Put out an APB for Chad Hungren. I didn't say his name once last night, not one time. Was he a factor in that game? So he wasn't himself. Dort, I guess, was a pretty good facsimile. what he does most night. He actually played very well, both ends of the floor, contributed his normal amount. But the rest of those guys, Hartstein was a non-factor.

Chathorne was a non-factor. Crusoe did his typical stuff. He made some plays, but wasn't really overly, you know, impactful on the game. I thought Shea did his thing. I don't think Indiana contained him at any point. I thought he did what he had to do, went where he wanted to go. And I was ready to a breakdown on him. when all hell broke loose in the last time. I changed my talking point.

But I was ready to, and I had about five examples of the different ways he escaped traffic to get to his spot. It was pretty fascinating. Splitting a ball screen. Going behind his back one time to, like, split after he got to switch with a big. You know, doing a snake thrible. Where he comes around, he's still being chased by the guard, and then he loops back around to tie that guard up on the screen a second time, and then gets his guy.

I have a fascinating tape off that's doing him. Overall, yeah, I do think that he played pretty well, but look, he missed the shot that is right up his, right in his wheelhouse. Exactly. That probably changes the outcome of the game. I mean, that's a shot he loves. You know, that mid-range 18-foot lean-back, and it wasn't really highly contested.

Nemhart was a good five feet away from him. He put a hand up, but Shade got the separate. separation he wanted, went up. He rarely misses that shot, it feels like, and he did at a very inopportune time. And then the rest is, of course, as it played out up the floor. Yeah, the only thing I thought is what we were talking about before, a lot of the quick shots, especially after they had, you know, turned him over with steals or forced turnovers. And I thought he and Jalen Williams in particular just fired a bit too quickly. I, I, um, in the first half, I actually, you know, I don't know what you think.

I don't think they run enough stuff. I don't think they make, or at least last night, but I saw it sometimes against Denver. I saw it sometimes against Minnesota. I don't think that they reverse the ball enough. I don't think they make defenses work as hard as they could, given their talent. Absolutely fair assessment. And I think one of the reasons built into the recipe are 20 points off time.

turnovers. So let's start with that. And then a lot of the rest of it, when Shays on the court is built around high ball screened, Iso for him, and dominant that middle area of the floor, which is so unique to him, and operating in the most crowded area of the floor, he loves it, and so comfortable there, and everything else is kind of built off of that. Everything else is a byproduct of Shays' greatness and inability to be contained. And then they just play basketball ball out of that. They don't run sets for anybody. They run a little bit of deliberate action out of timeouts. If they want the ball to go to a certain place, for the most part, it's defense creating

opportunities, and then that's just instinctive, make the right play in the open floor. And like I said, that's 20 we get a game off of that. That's another, you know, 40 points we didn't let you get. You just do the math on that, but they just build that into how they win. And if you take that away, their offense can be kind of predicament. and it was last night because they didn't get that part of the recipe. Yeah. And so they left a little bit flat because they're not a great three-point shooting team.

They have spurts where they string them together. Overall, that's the shot you want them to take. They don't have pure shooters, really. They have a couple, for the most part. They're streaky guys. And they get high-quality shots, and that's why their percentage is usually decent. But they're not a high-volume team that's going to shoot you out of the building. not Boston, Cleveland.

They're not one of those teams. Hell, even Indiana could do that to you. So they're going to, they have this recipe for how it works, and a big part of that was taken out of the game plan last night for them with this lack of conversion of turnover. Yeah, and you know, you said something that I wanted to go back to. They missed a lot of easy ones. They missed several at the rim.

They missed a few wide-open threes in the first half that would have, you know, made that conversion number better. But yeah, I just, look, I talked a lot about this during the Knicks Pacer series. For me, it was painful to watch the Knicks offensively. I can't stand, you know, that much ISO. I think Jalen Brunson dominating the ball as much, barely getting it over half court, you know, just in time, then being pressured and almost being pushed back into the back court, you know, by the time they'd get anything, you know, initiated, there's like 10 seconds on the shot clock.

I can't stand watching that, and I think OKC, not nearly what the Knicks are or, you know, watching Luca or Hardin or anything like that. And by the way, what you said, unique to the middle of the floor with SGA, it's interesting to watch that. I just think when you're physically dominating a team with your defense, you could really knock them out by making them work much harder defensively in the half court. I totally agree. And here's the thing, right along those lines, it goes along with that, Kevin, is one of the things I think was probably the most understated component of this series and not talked about nearly enough and I'll admit even myself was Indiana's defense. Because we were so enamored with Oklahoma City's defense. It's historically great defense. And we were talking about how great Indiana's offenses, and it is.

very hard to guard. But the other part of this was Indiana for the last four months has been one of the top-rated defensive teams in the league. And my point with that is their defense, when you are stagnant against them

or you don't move it, they're very capable of also locking you down for extended stretches. I also thought they're committed effort to get back off of some of those turnovers, took away, some of those opportunities for maybe a secondary shot for Oklahoma City on the break. They didn't get that because Indiana was sprinting back all five guys.

So the committed effort to it with their half-court defense in Halliburton is actually really, really, really trying hard to defend it. It's a weakness in his game. He gets attacked. People go out of him. He's trying really hard to even he's competing, but the rest of it is pretty buttoned up. They play good defense. And if you're going to play a stagged offense, now that's a fact.

in the series. Well, hell, this seems hard to guard if they get loose. And they're also pretty damn good defensively. Oklahoma City kind of allowed them to be even better because of their lack of ball movement. I totally agree. All right. Let's finish it up with this. So what is Tyrese Hallibur? I mean, I've heard the whole star, superstar thing, but, you know, when you talk about them with people, what do you say? That's a superstar is still for me, an area I reserve for players that that do it every night at a certain level of production, legitimately every night practically. And you don't have those weird suggestible anomalies with superstars.

They're a four-point game or a six-point game or a three-rebound game. You know, it just doesn't happen. They get to their number, even though nights they don't shoot well. And their responsibilities there every night, and you're constantly talking about them. Halliburton still has moments in games for me. I think that is the like the, and I don't know if that will ever change with him.

Now, to his credit, he can be passive and still play great when it's required later. Some guys, you know, you're passive most of the game. You're kind of in that rabbit hole of probably not turning it around tonight. How LeBurton has proven time and time again, he can be passive or not as, you know, pounding that gavel. Like, I'm a great player for, you know, large stretches and still be great when it matters. matters. So he's kind of right now for me in this very, very, very exclusive little club between star and superstar because he can morph between the two. And he's not that superstar

caliber every night. And if he gets there one day, I'll give it to him. But here's what I will say about him, Kevin. The guy's got nerve and not everybody has nerve. And did you hear the number that was going around last night, and I said it a couple times now. You might not have heard it. It's a pretty incredible thing. So in this postseason alone in the last 15 seconds of games, right, regulation or overtime

to take a shot to take the lead or tie the game, the rest of the league is four for 27. Whatever players you want to find that have taken those shots, four for 27, he's five for five. Yeah. I heard that with you guys last night. That's unbelievable.

I mean, are you kidding me? You're a shooter, you're a scorer, you know, when you played. You know, there are mechanics involved, nerves get involved, and for it not to change in the final 15 seconds versus what it was in the first quarter is really something to admire, right? Oh, yeah, no, definitely, without question. And it's like the one last night, Now, they let him get to his right hand, which you just can't.

I mean, I am surprised by the number of teams that are not so overplaying his right hand. To the point where you're giving up the left drive, he will not finish a shot going to the basket if he goes left. If he goes left, he's going to shoot a step-back jump shot. Every time, if he goes right, he has a multitude of shots that is the field. He'll shoot the three. He'll shoot this little running kind of hierarchy little bank shot. likes to shoot off one foot from like outside the lane. He loved that.

I think that's a shot he was trying to get to last night, and Caruso stunted off the corner, and that's why he pulled up where he did, because he never shoots pull-up, normal pull-up, 18-foot jump shot. He doesn't shoot that shot. Yeah. He did last night in that moment, and you could see his feet sort of shuffled as he left the court, and I think it was because he was trying to turn the corner in Wallace and shoot that runner up off the glass, and Caruso stunted at him, and he made him pick it up, and he'd be like, okay, then I got to shoot this shot.

And that's just, again, give the guy all the credit in the world, because it's not even in his wheelhouse. That's not in his arsenal, and he still made it to win a game. Like, that's pretty damn impressive. Super smart for Carlisle not to call a time out, right, or Dort would have been on him. Well, I think the reason he didn't call it, and you could see this in real time, And he's smart enough to process all of this. When the ball came off the rim, four Oklahoma City players were in the back court, like Balfailles area, and they were all on one side of the floor that was away from Halliburton,

which meant Rick can see when the ball comes off. There's a lot of room to get the ball to Halliburton with a lot of space up the floor. So he let it play out. Now, the mistake was made when Wallace ran over there to cut him off. he did not overplay his right hand and three different times coming up before Halliburton sort of semi-stopped and hesitated because I think he was anticipating Wallace

jumping on his right hand and he was going to have to go left and he probably would have shot a step back three and probably missed it. But instead, Wallace never really adjusted to those little hesitations and he's like, nope, I'm just going to stay here on your left hand. Alperin's like, okay, I'll just go right,

which is where I want to go and he ended the game. So I think Rick saw the way it was setting up when the ball came off the rim. There was a lot of space back there to get the ball in Halliburton. If it wasn't, if that was muddied up, somebody was in his chest, and they couldn't throw the outlet, and now he got Miles Turner trying to dribble the ball or whoever the hell was. They came up at their rebound.

Seattle, I don't remember. Rick probably calls timeout. Yeah. That'd be my guess. But he's like, no, I like the way this looks. Play it out, man. And not let them adjust and set something up to defend us. go ahead and play. I'm situational

with that. I don't agree that there's one answer all the time. I don't think you always trust your players, and I don't think you always call timeout. I think it's situational, and obviously worked out well for Rick last night. Yeah, well, the amount of time, it starts with that in terms of situational. All right.

It also starts, it also starts dead ball or not. Is it a made free throw? Now, for the last 60 seconds, while the guy is shooting the free throws, they're having a chance to organize their defense, because conversations are taking place from the bench, you're communicating, and now you're less likely to get what you want without the timeout. So that matters.

You know, but as a live ball situation, when it looks like there's space initially, yeah, I'm probably going to let them play. You should be coaching. Again, all right, let's finish up with this, because I did not hear your prediction heading into the series. What was it and what is it now? I predicted OKC in six. I still think OKC is going to win this series, and I think it's going to, now I think most likely going seven games. Is there a major adjustment for OKC to make going into game two Sunday night?

I thought they made a mistake. I love Degnell. I think he's one of the brightest minds I've met in basketball. I think he made a mistake by adjusting to that before the game even started. When you win 68 games and you're the number of, seed, a prohibitive favorite, you're playing a team like Indiana is a good team. You don't make the first adjustment before the game starts by going smaller because you're right away.

You're saying to your own team, there's something there I worried about. I said going into the series, there's no way they can play the two big lineup as much as they typically do because Indiana is a five-out team with a three-point shooting center. it's very difficult to play two bigs against them for a long period of time. But it's also an advantage that you have on the glass, your ability to get the ball to one of those bigs on a slip down the lane, and then their ability to connect with these interior passes that they've been making to each other the entire postseason.

I mean, they destroyed Denver with that two big passing lobs to each other once the ball ends in the middle. Denver had no answer for it. three, four times a game they were doing that. It's demoralizing to your team. So you kind of took that off the table by going small at the start and not really exploring what do they look like trying to guard us with two big. I also think it would open some things for Chet on the perimeter.

So I thought it was a mistake by Dagnall. And I wonder if he goes back to what is their strength. Because they got people like 17 on the glass. like that's not supposed to happen because they address their need in the offseason by adding Arnstein. Well, one of the reasons for that is just the disparity in shot attempts. I mean, OKC had so many more shot attempts giving more, you know, rebound opportunities, but still, that's still a big difference, 5639.

Yeah. Yeah, I just think it's, it differentiates you in a way that Indiana is going to have to try to figure out what they want to do. and could cause them some problems. Let's explore it. I thought he went into the game automatically, assuming that that's not the way to go, and I thought that was not necessarily the right thing to do to your team. So I think that's an adjustment.

I want to see how that plays. Obviously, they've got to convert turnovers at the rate they normally do. That, you know, Indiana turn to over 11 times a game in the playoffs going in the last night, which is really low number. They had 25. So they're not going to turn it over 25 times again. it's not going to be 11 like they're used to themselves. It's going to be somewhere in that probably 14 to 16 range most nights.

Those got to be converted into 20 points. And that's going to change the feel of the game if they're able to do that. And look, you know, I think there's got to be some guys. It's got to be, hey, man, I'm embarrassed by the fact that I just played a finals game and no one even noticed me, aka Chad Holmberg. Make your presence felt, man. Like, come out. Like, you're there to do dance.

damage, be aggressive, play with some force. Don't just be out there, you know, out there on the perimeter and kind of tiptoeing around and like no rim deterrent. Like, where was he? So that's, that's another one. I think Oklahoma City will be much better, but hell, Indiana could be better. It could be another, like a total, you know, finish out the wire again. But I think Oklahoma City is a better team.

I've watched them all year. They want 68 damn games for a reason. By a lot of points, most nights. Yeah, exactly. So I still think they're going to win the series. I just think now I think Indiana kind of guaranteed this is going to go really long. Yeah, and for those of you that weren't aware, specifically what Tim was talking about, Kays and Wallace got the start for Isaiah Hartenstein. And that is nuts that they made the first move as a prohibitive favorite heading into the game and into the series.

All right, thanks for doing this. Awesome, as always. and I'd love to do it again with you if the series gets extended. Thanks. Anytime, brother. You got it. Tim Legler, everybody the best. That's it for the day. I know the show was long, but Kime and Legler were great.

I'll have a short show tomorrow, which will feature Washington Center Tyler Beiotish on the show. Our guy at E.C. will also preview the Belmont Stakes.