The Kevin Sheehan Show - My Billy Packer Interview

Episode Date: January 28, 2023

Legendary college basketball analyst Billy Packer passed away on Thursday night at the age of 82. Kevin interviewed Billy prior to the 2021 Final 4. It was one of Kevin's all-time favorite interviews. Billy's memory and storytelling from all of his years as the #1 college basketball television analyst were amazing. For college hoops fans, this is must-listen.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Solid stream. Blake will pack. Blake knows exactly what's coming up.

Coach Gay says hold up. That's the legendary voice of Billy Packer. Alongside, by the way, another legendary voice, Dick Enberg, as they called the 2002 Maryland Duke game at Cole Fieldhouse with that famous end of first half. O'he Steel play when Steve Blake picked the pocket of Jason Williams as Maryland went on to Route Duke. That was one of the final games at Cole Fieldhouse that year, the year that Maryland won the National Championship. Billy Packer and Dick Enberg on the call that day for CBS, not NBC. I mentioned yesterday on the podcast that today I would put out as a podcast, as a

standalone podcast, the interview that I did with Billy Packer nearly two years ago. And I'm doing it for two reasons. Number one, it's one of my all-time favorite interviews, certainly in recent years. And number two, many of you, after finding out that Billy Packer had passed away on Thursday night, reached out to me via Twitter to say, that was one of your favorite interviews as well. I'll give you the context for the interview here in a moment, But Billy Packer was the number one analyst on college basketball on two major networks, NBC and CBS, from 1976 until 2008, when he called his final game with Jim Nance. It was the Memphis, Kansas National Championship game. He had a 32-year run of being that sports number one analyst.

I mean, is there anything comparable to that? I mean, Madden didn't have a 32-year run, right? I mean, Madden was 1980 through, you know, well, I guess if you count the NBC years, Madden certainly had a 28-29-year run, something like that. For people like me who grew up in the 70s as a child of the 70s, loving Maryland basketball and ACC basketball, ball. We remember Packer and Thacker. That was the team on CD Chesley's ACC games of the week. And he became a regional legend and then became a national

broadcaster when he joined Enberg and then eventually Enberg and Maguire in that famous group of Enberg, Packer, and McGuire on NBC. And then when CBS got the tournament in 82, 1982 CBS got the tournament. He went to CBS to call games initially with Musburger and then with Nance for all of those years. Billy Packer was great. Billy Packer was a coach. He was a player.

He was a final four player at Wake Forest. He was an assistant coach for Bones and McKinney at Wake Forest. And then he became really the sports all-time number one analyst. And, you know, he was a coach as an analyst. and he was also unique in that in his day, you didn't criticize coaching. You didn't criticize players. Billy was to the point, and he was always constructively critical, you know, when it needed to be. And other than Howard CoSell, there weren't many people back then doing that.

Anyway, the context for this interview was it was the final four two years ago. It was the final four where Gonzaga won the whole thing, beat Baylor, beat UCLA in that great semi-final game. game. And I called Billy up to ask him to come on the radio show to talk about the final four. I didn't know Billy well, but I had had him on the radio show, I don't know, three, four, five times, something like that, you know, over the years. He was always a phenomenal guest. And he said he couldn't do it because he had plans that morning. And I said, well, then can you do the podcast, which is actually better anyway, because I have more time on the podcast. And I would have never gotten what I got out of Billy on the podcast if I had just done, you know, a 15-minute

radio interview. And he said, yeah, I'd be happy to come on. But I want to warn you, I am not paying attention to college basketball or this tournament. I don't watch college basketball anymore, which was interesting. And I think I had heard that previously. He had just kind of gotten to the point where he couldn't stand the one and duns and the way the sport had changed. And he wasn't watching the sport anymore. And I said, that's okay. Come on and we'll talk about you and your career. And he did. And it was great. And I don't know that you have to be a college basketball fan or a Billy Packer fan or an ACC basketball fan to enjoy this. But certainly the paths that he crossed with so many icons in the sport, so many broadcasts.

I think it would be, it'll be better for those of you that really love college basketball and remember a lot of this stuff. But man, some of the stories he tells, you know, about his relationship with Al McGuire, which was not very good to begin with, about the national championship game back in 1979, Michigan State, Indiana State, and what he thought of Magic and Bird before that game, that still is the most watched basketball game in the history of basketball on TV. He called that game with Dick Enberg and Al McGuire, you know, asking him about Len Bias, asking him about his relationship with Lefty Dresel, Dean Smith, just so much to this. So I'm going to play it as it aired in April of 2021 before that final four.

And you will hear it right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's bring in one of my all-time favorite analysts in any sport, all-time legendary college basketball analyst, Billy Packer. Billy, I really appreciate you making time for me today. You were part of truly an unbelievable, multi, four-decade run of being the number one analyst, you know, with Brent Musburger and Jim Nance at CBS and at NBC with the legendary. team of Dick Enberg and Al McGuire. And for those of us old enough to remember, you know, the heyday of the ACC, you know,

and C.D. Chesley and with Jim Thacker and Billy Packer, Thacker and Packer, Thacker and Packer, all of that Bones McKinney that was always so much fun to watch. And you worked with one of our own here in D.C. Tim Brandt as well. So I thank you for doing this. You know, I want to talk mostly about your career. When we talked briefly yesterday, you told me that you're really. not following today's game, that you didn't know that much about the teams in the final four. You don't watch as much.

I'm curious. Why don't you follow the sport as much as you used to? Well, it was a great part of my life. My father was a college coach. I enjoyed playing the game. I enjoyed then coaching the game. I enjoyed the part of my life of announcing, although I never had any goal to be an announcer. my father was a coach

and therefore I was around the game as a little kid I love playing I love competing as a player and then unfortunately ended up at the right kind of place where we had outstanding teams so that was a lot of fun I never had any goal

whatsoever to be a coach but then Bones McKinney asked me to come and join him to try to rebuild Wakeback again and I enjoyed that and set that as part of my life's goal to be involved with coaching. And I never had any goal to be an announcer and was asked to do that as a fill-in for a

fellow. And that lasted a lot longer as a hobby than I anticipated. But it's kind of like Roy Williams yesterday. There's a point in time in your life where you say, you know, this has been a great run. It's something I loved. I did not like the direction that the game was going with the one-and-done programs. And the fact that the game was changing a lot in terms of how it was played and how you put together a program.

So I didn't miss, other than the friendships and the associations, I didn't miss getting out of the game as an announcer. And I like to do things in phases of life where I'm involved in other things and put the same kind of energy into other things. So I don't really keep up with the game because I used to, I used to love to study the game, and since I'm not going to utilize the studying, it's not something that I ever was a – I've never been a fan of sports. That's kind of a crazy thing to say with all it's meant to me in my lifetime.

But I love to digest the game and understand the game and try to predict the game. So maybe my interest was not that of a fan that I'd stay following it. That's really interesting. So when you were playing, and a lot of people, you know, obviously remember you for your broadcasting career, but you were a really good player at Wake Forest. You led, you know, Wake to the final four. You coached with Bones McKinney at Wake Forest. When you were, you know, I've met a lot of athletes and worked with a lot of them over the years where they were focused on their sport.

They weren't interested in watching them when they had free time. Was that you when you were playing in coaching? Oh, no. When I was involved with basketball, it was, you know, it was totally consuming. And so at that period of time in my life, everything that I could study and learn and as a player work on and as a coach, try to be around the, you know, the top people to understand what they were doing and what they were doing to try to win ball games and recruit players and put together a program. So it was a real education for me and something that I loved to do. And then when I became an announcer, I loved to study not only the games that were to be played, but the history of the games and how people got there and looked back into the history of people that preceded anything that I was ever involved with a game.

And still is very interesting to me why people win as opposed to rooting to see them win. I only ever rooted, and you knew this in your heart, because as a competitor, you have to want to win. But as an announcer, I only rooted twice in my life when I was announcing a game for somebody to win. And the first time it happened to me, it was a weird feeling. It was in John Wooden's last game. against Kentucky yes against Kentucky my

time at the final four as a senior at Wake Forest the last game I played in my college career was against a team called UCLA that I never heard of to speak of nor had I ever really heard of John Wooden but that was the first final four he was ever in

and we became very good friends as life went on and it was really interesting to see his career grow, and he helped me a great deal in regard to what I thought about the game. So it's kind of funny that how much the game has changed now with the exposure that people get, and you used to be able to watch a team develop and grow and a coach develop and grow his program.

Now with the advent of the one and done, and now we've got the transfer portal. you don't even get a, we're not even going to get a chance to watch people develop as a team. All right, so you rooted for two teams, you said, in all of that time. The 75 UCLA wouldn't final game against Kentucky was the first time. What was the other one? Well, and again, I wasn't rooting for them when the game started because I've never really been a fan with a rooting interest,

but I could feel it taken over, you know, taking over my mind, if the game was being played, knowing it would be the final time he'd ever coach. The other one was a game not quite so auspicious as that. I was doing a game where a guy named Bob Stack, who was the coach at Wake Forest, fell on really hard times and had a year where all the guys were injured, and he actually started a center in this particular game against NC State, who he really got out of med school because the guy had eligibility to play, and he started against a really good Jim Valvano team in the Greensboro Coliseum.

And, you know, I felt so sorry for him. And as the game was going on, I knew it was going to be a blowout. They had Chris Washburn and all those guys that Jimmy had on that particular team. And the weight team kept staying with him. And I could feel myself rooting for stack to, you know, to potentially have the win. And a week later, and he eventually almost won the game. It went into overtime and he lost. and the next week I was doing another NC State game,

and I said to Jim Valvano before the game, I said, Jim, I'd like to talk to you after the game. And he said, sure, so I went down to see him, and I said, I really want to apologize. I like to consider myself a guy when the game starts. I'm going to say what I see and do the best I can. I said, but I'll have to be honest with you. Last week when you were planning against Bob's team,

I said I actually found myself rooting for him because of the rough year. And he said, you don't have to apologize to me. I was rooting for him too. And I said, why is that? He said, he used to babysit my kids when I was a coach of Connecticut and he was playing there and he really needed to win more than I did. So I didn't feel quite so bad about that. Oh, that's hysterical. I mean, what a small world really. Stack was his babysitter in Connecticut. You know, the thing that I remember mostly about you, and I wonder if you think this is true. In a day and age where game analysts, not play-by-play guys, but analysts, were, you know,

there to diagnose the game, but wouldn't necessarily be constructively critical or question a coaching move. I kind of remember, you know, and my father and I have talked a lot about this because I watched all those games. We were Maryland guys. We were ACC guys and Maryland fans. And we've talked about it over the years that maybe other than CoSell in broadcasting at that time, you were really one of the first to really in-game, you know, question a coach's substitution or question a strategy or be constructively critical. Do you remember it that way as well? Well, it wasn't in my head.

but when I, you know, I never had any formal training as an announcer or told what to do. As a matter of fact, the only time I ever had anybody make a suggestion or a criticism that was critical of the announcing that I really took heart to was the very first game I ever broadcast. And it was it was Maryland against NC State. when lefty had his first great teams and Norm was building obviously the great teams he had at NC State and Maryland won that game and when the game was that was the first game I ever broadcast

and when the game was over they said go down the floor and interview Lefty Drizell I don't know if people realize this but lefty's first game as a college coach was against Wake Forest and he beat us in Davidson and he kids me about this to his very day

that we were supposed to be a top 10 team, but he never tells everybody that about five of our top seven players never played in that game. Norm Sneed started in that game and the only college game he ever played in his life. Did you say Norm Sneed? That's right. As in the quarterback?

The quarterback of the Washington Reds. Yeah, and then the Eagles, yeah. I'll tell a crazy story about that. All of our guys got injured, except the guy named Allie Hart, myself, out of our first eight players. Lenny Chappell was our best player. He injured his knee right before the season started. So we had to play our first, about five games without most of our players.

And the second game we played was against Davidson. It was lefties opener. And so we go down there and we get beat. But we didn't even have enough guys to practice. So Bones McKinney came to me after Lenny got hurt. three days before our first game, and said, we got to get some kids from the campus.

And the two best players on campus was a guy named Bill Hall, who eventually became a starting player for us, the first guy ever to start in the ACC in both football and basketball in the same season. The other guy was Norm Sneed. And Norm was a quarterback. Now, they were playing that Saturday in their last football game. And so I went to them and said, hey, guys, when you come back from Columbia,

Could you come back with, and I'll take you over to Bones' house and we'll show you the offense, and you guys can play on Tuesday night. So they both agreed to do that, and Norm played in that game for us just to give us a body, but he was a great athlete, and then he went to the North-South game, so that was the only game he ever played in college. But that was our first game, and Lefty was the coach. So anyway, so I knew Lefty for quite some time before I go down to interview him, I interviewed, and I said,

Leptie, we all know you're one of the greatest recruiters in the history of basketball, but not much of a coach. And he just looked at me. I kept on with the interview. I wasn't even thinking about it. And the next day, I got a phone call. And it was a guy that became one of my closest friends in my adult wife, Big House Gaines, who was the coach of Winston-Sellam State.

Sure. And he said, son, don't ever talk disrespect. about a coach, whether he wins or loses. You know better than that. I don't ever want to hear that again and hung up the phone. And it was something that stayed with me all my life. But I didn't feel it was being critical when I announced the games. I felt that what I wanted to do is to get fans to say, you know, let's see why we're

winning, why we're not winning, what can we do to win, what can we do not to lose? And so that's the way I approached the game. And I realized that didn't make a lot of friends in the Atlantic Coast Conference because there's only one team that's going to win a game. And when the season is over, there's only one team's going to be the national champion. So a lot of people felt I was rooting against them when I was really only interested in, hey, here's what's happening. I may be right.

I may be wrong. But in my opinion, here's what's going to happen if a team's going to win or lose a game. And that's the way I approached it. Well, you know, it was, though, unique for the time. I think it was, and maybe others would point out other examples. But, you know, in bringing up Lefty, and that was one of the people I was going to ask you about. But I can remember many times, you know, Lefty joking about you after games saying, well, you know, I don't know. I don't know why we lost the game. Just ask Billy Packer. He's got all the answers.

But I always had this sense that you had a great. relationship with lefty? I never had a personal relationship with coaches from a social standpoint, but I love to have a relationship with them. Here's what I do. Here's what you do. How can we both do that better when you're going to be on the air? So I really respected the coaching profession. As I said, my father was one, and I respected those guys that I knew were really putting their heart into it. and nobody put their heart and their time and their energy into basketball coaching any more than left he did. So I had unbelievable respect for what he did. You've got to remember now when you look back at the history, wherever he went, he built the program,

and he won. You know, Davidson was never much of a basketball program in the nation. He goes to Maryland and did everything other than win a national championship. And every place he went there after the same thing. NCAA tournament factors. So I had great, great respect for him. And I remember he actually called in a game that I was doing one time when I made a statement about shooting and raised hell with our producer while the game was being played.

And he told me that left Gissel called in and said, Why the hell are you talking about shooting? You never could shoot. And that's when we got into that challenge. up at the University of Maryland, where he said he could shoot better than I could, which turned out to be a lot of fun. And I love the fact that he said, let's stop shooting. Jump shot.

He said, you never shot a hook shot, and then he challenged me to hook shot, and I beat him in hook shooting. And that ended that day with a lot of fun, and we kidded about that many times. I was there that day. I was a student in college park, one of the best five and a half years of my life in college park. And you were there, and it was a big scene. You know, people, I mean, there probably were 10,000 people that seemed like in Colfield House.

I think it may have been the day before the game. And you and Lefty were going at it in a shooting contest, and you did. You destroyed him, didn't you? Well, he won't. I would not say destroy him. Will you beat him? He should have known better to play against a guy that could shoot as opposed to the way Lefty's shot in college. I'll hold that against him to this day.

We had a lot of fun. I have great respect for him. By the way, you said something about that first interview, and that really was Lefty's reputation, even though I always felt Lefty was an outstanding coach, but the reputation was, you know, lefty was one of the best recruiters in the country, but he could never beat Dean. We always know it came down to the last couple of minutes, and somehow Dean would figure it out and lefty was a bridesmaid so many times against Norm Sloan, against Dean Smith, et cetera. Did you feel that that was a little bit exaggerated?

I thought it was very exaggerated. In this respect, when you think back at that era, and that's another reason why I really don't miss the game so much, I was fortunate enough, as were you in your lifetime, to see what I think was the greatest era of college basketball of all time. when you start talking about when John Wooden started it, and basically before the one and done started, that was an incredible period of time because you watch the coach put together a team,

you watch that team develop, and you watch great seniors and juniors play in the college game, which, in my estimation, will never see another great college team based on that era, nor will we ever see another great college player. because we'll never see a great senior player. And we will relevant to this particular era that we're in right now. I think Gonzaga is a great college team in this era.

But I don't think Gonzaga would be a great college team going up against Karim Jabar's 1967, 68 or 69 team. So we're talking that that was 100 years ago. So I think the game has changed an awful lot in that respect. Well, talking about that greatest era, whenever I'm in a conversation with people about the greatest college basketball players of my lifetime that I've ever watched, it's an easy answer for me. It's David Thompson won and then probably a couple of spots until I get to number two.

What's your answer to that question? Well, David certainly was as a wing player, the best wing player that I ever saw in the college game. It's kind of funny. You say, how could you say that when Michael Jordan played? But Michael Jordan was not the player in college that David Thompson was. Right. To me, Kareem Jabbar is the greatest college player of all time because you can't duplicate what he did. I mean, he played three years for his team, All-American National Player of the Year,

and three National Championship Trophies. And plus what he could do individually. So to me, he's the greatest college player of all time. But you've got to remember when you talk about the greats of all time, like what we have this year, a guy, we've had freshmen who were picked a college player of the year. Now, can you imagine that freshman playing against Oscar Robertson as a senior? or Jerry West as a senior, or Elgin Baylor as a senior, or Kareem Jabar as a senior, or Bill Walton as a senior. You know, it's David Thompson as a senior.

I mean, it's not even worth talking about. So I think that that's why I say we'll never see another player like that again, because now in this era, they may not even enter college, much less than to be a senior. you know so now that we're doing away with the one and done player and we'll have a zero and done because they'll never even be there but i understand what you were saying it's almost like you separate the centers out of the conversation it's hard sometimes you know because walton and and lwell cinder in college and wilt you know and russell they dominated in ways that wing players or point guards or or even power forwards couldn't but but thompson

the greatest non-center for you? I would say Oscar was the greatest non-center for me. I mean, he could do things that whatever was necessary, and I got to know Oscar as an adult, and he was so brilliant in terms of his way that he analyzed the game and what he could do. he was a bigger body and if you look at not only

statistically but also he took his teams to the final four as well although he didn't win a national championship to me Oscar was the epitome of a player from a rebounding a ball handling a shooting

standpoint of his size he's the best that I ever saw I think the first time I was ever upset about any of my favorite team's losses was the 1974 ACC tournament final. Maryland and NC State often referred to as one of, if not the greatest college games of all time. You called it with Jim Thacker that night in Greensboro. What was it like? What do you remember about it? A couple of things I remember, obviously, the incredible competition between that same group of players.

People forget this. They talk about Gonzaga being undefeated. People don't realize. that NC State was undefeated the year before and never even got in the NCAA tournament because they were on probation. So when you take Maryland and NC State and UCLA were the three best teams in the country that particular year, it was the day of only one team from a given conference that would go into the NCAA tournament. Those teams had played against each other in epic games leading up to that game. When that night started, you knew only one of them would go into the NCAA tournament,

which you didn't realize how unfair it was until that game was over. And then when the players that were on the court that night, not only from an ability but from an experience standpoint, you know, basically was a senior-oriented floor that night, John Lucas, obviously, being one of the changes, and David only being a junior. But, you know, the front line for Maryland and Tommy Burleson, being a senior. And so it was incredible. And you got two great coaches, a great environment.

And then the guys played as well as they could play on both sides of the floor. And I remember with about four minutes to go, we went in a commercial break, and I said to Jim Thacker, I don't want this game to ever end. And he said, oh, it's a great game. I said, no, Jim. I said, I don't want it to end because one of these two teams is not going to have a chance to experience to run for the national championship. And you could feel how tough that was. And I remember when the game ended, I went down to the Maryland locker room and left he came out,

and he said the boys decided, and I don't hope it was the boys or him not to play in the NIT. This is as far as they go in. People might not remember this, but they would have easily won the NIT. And maybe been in the final four about back in those days, they didn't even have regional setups where teams went, out of their region in the NCAA tournament.

So they would have had to probably play if two teams could enter in the same region in the regional finals. So the reason the game to me is along with the UCLA game against Houston, which was the first game in a dome nationally televised

for college basketball, they were the two most important games in the history of the college game because the Maryland NC State game was a game that the two great people, Wayne Duke from the Big Ten

and Willis Casey from NC State, who really had no great relation to each other other than their love for the game, got together and said this is not the right thing to do. And they're the two guys that had the power in the NCAA to go ahead and say, let's put multiple

teams in the NCAA tournament whether you won a conference championship or not. People don't remember this, but John Wooden was very much against that. He said nobody should play in the in the tournament that hasn't won their league championship. But when those two guys were able to get that legislated, that's what makes what we're seeing today, March Madness.

That game is what instituted March Madness. So not only was it a great game with great players, great coaches, playing the best basketball you could ever want to see, going into overtime, but it also had a historic significance of what made college basketball what it is today. Yeah, in fact, the following year, Maryland ended up being the first at large team from the ACC to go to the tournament. They won the regular season, but they did not win the ACC's tournament. They went to the next year.

They got to the Elite 8 with Lucas, Brad Davis, and Mo Howard, McMillan and Elmore were gone that particular year. You know the one thing in watching that game? You just brought up something that I don't think about this stuff except if I'm talking to someone. else that I respect it also has the knowledge. But I used to, Mr. Chesley used to have me announced the starting lineups. And the worst place you had to do that was at Maryland because you broadcast the game from all the way up to top. So I used to have, probably couldn't do it today, but I used to have to go down on

the floor and announce the starting lineups and then then run all the way back up that stadium steps to the top to get ready to, you know, as the game started. Okay, so I always used to think about that run up there. And so I'm announcing a team, and so I'm going to, I did the visitors team first. I forget who that was. And now I'm going to do Maryland. The first was starting at Glengarde, John Lucas, okay, and John runs out. I had announced a number of their games.

And I looked over at the Maryland team, and John was standing right next to me. I said, John, who you start with tonight in the back court? I could not remember Mo Howard's name. I drew a blank and he goes, oh, he looked at me like I was crazy. I'm low. And I said, oh, yeah, and at the other guard position. And, of course, nobody knew that I couldn't think of his name. And it was really funny from that point on.

I always had a card with me, even though I was like Joe Biden. I needed a card to make sure I can remember the name. That was good. By the way, you know, one of the things that the ACC, I think, did before anybody else, was they would announce one player from each team. So, you know, was John Lucas from Durham, North Carolina, and then starting at Guard for North Carolina from Rocky Mountain, North Carolina, and here comes Phil Ford.

It's like, I remember all of those players during that era where their hometown was, because you would get that, and they'd come out and they'd slap five, and nobody went after Billy more than Buck did. Buck Williams would come out with Ralph Samson, and he'd try to break his hand during those things. That's right. You know, I'll tell you a crazy thing having to me one night. I'm doing a game, NC State against North Carolina,

and this is the kind of guy Dean Smith was. I'm standing there on the floor, and the teams, the blow the teams off, and I'm going to get ready to walk out to introduce the starting lineup, and Dean Smith comes over to me, and he goes, I don't appreciate you wearing a red tie. I went right back to the bench. I mean, he never missed a trick. I didn't even realize it was wearing a red tie.

So it's kind of funny, the little things that happened during those introductions. Was he the best coach that you've ever watched or certainly of that era, Dean? What, you know, the term coach is a very interesting question when you use the word coach because it has so many different facets. You know, can the guy recruit? Can the guy teach in practice? Can the guy orchestrate a game as it's being played? Can the guy work the referees?

Does the guy know how to treat the fans? Does the guy know how to treat the press? Does the guy have a love and a relationship with his players after they leave his team? And what do his players think of him? And what is he brought to the game that's new and interesting? When you take all those things in consideration, not just somebody who says coached the guy that wins games. I think Dean Smith had the total package more than anybody that I've ever seen coached the game.

Yeah, I mean, God, that's a lot of criteria and some things that I haven't even thought about. I mean, the other thing that I just remember about Dean is he, as an in-game, late-game strategist on how to get the most out of the clock. you know, how to extend games. It seemed to me over the years, as a Maryland guy, we lost more heartbreakers to Dean Smith in games that we thought we had won than anybody else. But he did it to everybody. One of the famous games, of course, and I'm assuming you called it because it was a Saturday afternoon when they were down eight with 17 seconds to go against Duke,

and somehow Walter Davis banks went in from half court. They go to overtime and win. I did call that game, and what was interesting, with the score where it was, Mr. Chesley told me to go down on the floor to interview the coach, the coach from Duke. Now, this is kind of a trivia question. So I went down on the floor, the Carolina fans are ripping a living hell out of me, you know, because they knew that Duke was going to win the game. And I was right under the basket where all that happened waiting to interview the coach.

and I went over and I told during a timeout, this was about two minutes ago, and I said to the manager of Duke, I said, when the game's over, I'd like you to bring your coach over to where I'm standing. He said, sure. Does anybody have an idea who that coach? It was Bill Foster.

No, it was not. Oh. Who was it? His name was Neil McGahey. Okay. That one will be one that's not many people No. I ever realized was the coach at Duke University for that game.

And I can remember it like it happened half an hour ago. Of course, Neil was told to come over, and with 18 seconds ago, he was assuming he was going to do an interview, and then everything went to hell for Duke at that moment. It was unbelievable. But was Foster the coach at the time, but he was just out or something like that? Oh, McGaie, he was the head coach. Neil was the head coach.

Got it. Bill Foster came the next year. Got it. Wow. I would have never gotten that one. How many people would know that one? I do remember, you know, back then, remember, there were, you know, there was a game on Saturday. There were a couple of games during the week, and that was basically it, you know? That's right. And, you know, you called so many of them.

So I wanted to ask you about, you know, the legendary broadcast team of you and Dick Enberg and Al and obviously that was a national opportunity for you. You had become, you know, huge in our area of the country. And, you know, you go to NBC and you become part of what I think probably is one of the greatest pairing, certainly in college sports history and broadcasting, if not, both college and pro. How did that come together and what was it, what was it like being a part of that team, especially the dynamic and the chemistry that you and Al had? Well, it's kind of funny. And this also happened at the University of Maryland.

I was doing ACC games, and NBC called me to do an NCAA tournament game. And I said I'd be happy to do that. And I went and did a game, and I did the games in 1974 when David Thompson fell on his head in the regional final. Against Pitt, yeah. That's right. I did that, and the next year, NBC called me back and said, Billy, you did a good job for us last year. We'd like, would you like to work this year?

And I said, yeah, and I said, yeah, I'd love to do it. And so they sent me to Birmingham, Alabama. I'm giving you more than you want to hear. No, I love all of them. Excuse me, Tuscaloosa. So they don't even tell me who I'm going to work with, and I don't really care. It's just going to be such a thrill.

And I'm going to be doing Kentucky against Marquette. and I get to the hotel room and a hotel, and I check in, and they said there's a message for you here. And I get this card, and it opens up and it says, Kurt Gowdy would like to have lunch with you. And I'm thinking somebody's pulling a prank here, and around the corner came Kurt Gowdy. And so he said, so would you like to go to lunch? And I said, yeah, and I mean, you've got to remember. Kurt Gowdy was the number one announcer in all sports on any network. and I'm wondering, well, wonder who he's working with.

And it turned out he was going to be the play-by-play, and I was going to be the analyst. So we go to lunch, and of all people we go to lunch with Bear Bryant. So I'm saying, my God, what the world is? And so I do the games, and the next week, NBC calls me and said, Billy, would you like to go and do the regionals in Portland? I said, sure, I go up there. I'm working with Kurt again.

And so they call me the next week and say, Billy, would you like to do the finals? And so I work with Kurt the whole NCAA tournament. And he said, Billy, I really like working with you. And so the very next year, I get a call from NBC, and they say, we're going to do college basketball regular season. Would you be interested in being our analyst? And I said, yes.

They said, well, we'll get back with you because we have selected who we want to be the play-by-play man, and we want to make sure he wants to work with you. Well, I figure, damn, Kurt love working with me. I'm sure he'll put in a good word for me. But, you know, and so they call me back, and they say, Billy, the fellow that we wanted for play-by-play has agreed to do it. We asked him who he wanted as an analyst. He said he didn't need anybody if every game was going to go down to the wire.

But he knew that wouldn't get to happen, so he'd like to request a guy by the name of Billy Packer. And I'm thinking, well, obviously, you know, why would Kurt think otherwise, you know? And they said, his name is Dick Enberg. And I started to laugh because what happened is the year before all this started, Dick was the big announcer on the West Coast for the UCLA. Yeah. Right.

And C.D. Chesley and Eddie Einhorn decided to put a game together between UCLA and Maryland. as a nationally televised game. And so we're going to go to the game. Facker and I are going to broadcast. We think we're going to broadcast the game. And I get up to Maryland, and Mr. Chesley and Eddie Einhorn, who I'd worked for in the NCAA tournament, because they didn't like each other.

I think it was the only person ever to work for both of them. And they called me to breakfast. And they said, we've got a problem. I said, what's the problem? Why am I being in calling it? I figured I'm the problem. and they don't like the way I work or something. And they said, well, Eddie wants Dick Enberg to be the play-by-play,

and Chess said, I want Jim Thacker. And what do you think? I said, guys, way over my pay scale here. And they said, well, here's what we've decided if it's okay with you. Enberg's going to work half the game with you, and Thacker's going to work the other half with you. Oh, my God. And I'm thinking, man, alive. I don't know this.

I've never met Emberg, but I've heard of his reputation. figure he's a West Coast hot shot, you know, and he's going to get back on the plane and go home. So I can't wait to see we're going to have this meeting, and they're going to explain how it's going to work. And I'm looking right at Enberg figure, and he's going to just go right through the ceiling. And I'm watching him. He's very relaxed, and they tell him how it's going to happen. And he looks at Jim Facker, and he said, Jim, this is your home turf. Would you like to work the first half of the second half?

I'll do whichever one you decide not to do. And I'm thinking, man, is this guy a con man? He's the greatest gentleman I've ever seen. And Jim said, well, if it's okay with you, I'll start off the game and that's fine. And then he said to Enberg, I mean to Eddie Einhorn and C.D. Chesley, well, I'd rather not just sit around. He said, how about if I went down the floor and brought up any influence? that might be available while the first half is going on.

And I thought, boy, is this guy really something. Well, there must have been something about that half a game. Dick and I worked together that made Dick think that we could make a good team broadcasting together. So that's how he and I started the first network regular season college basketball in the 76 season. And he worked as a two-sum. That is crazy.

I'm going to tell you, I was there that night. My father, we had season tickets to Maryland games, and that was the year after. They lost to UCLA that night. David Myers was the star, because the year before was the lefty, you know, I'm going to make Maryland, the UCLA of the east first matchup against UCLA at Pauley,

and they nearly ended UCLA's win streak. That was the Walton, you know. I did that game. I didn't realize you did that game. So who did you do that game for? Was that with Thacker? No, that was, that was, I did that game with, geez, I think it was, it must have been, it must have been a TVS, NBC, broadcast it, and TVS put the game on.

And I broadcast that game with a fellow from St. Louis. but that was a great, great basketball game showed how good the Maryland team was. You know, last second shot's the only thing that lost the game for. Well, Lucas kind of got trapped in the corner. Yep, you got trapped in the corner. You've got a great memory. Well, the other thing I remember about that game, and I will tell you that that's really the first memory for me of Maryland basketball

was that 73-74 season, it was. was on at like 1130 at 90s coast time, and my father let me stay up and watch it. That's what I remember about that. And what's really interesting? This is another crazy story. Dick and I worked that whole, that particular season, regular season, and then we get to the final four. And the same thing happened. We had another breakfast meeting. The Kurt Gowdy as contract said that he worked the final four. Dick Enberg's contract said he worked the final four. So this is Bobby Knight is going to be playing at 76. He's got his undefeated club, you know, and so he's going to be playing in the final game. But what they call me in and they say,

Billy, this is going to be on Saturday, we're afraid that Kurt is going to be very upset that Dick's going to be announcing one of the games. and so we want you to stand in the middle when the two, we want to have both of them there for the first game, you stand in the middle and hold the mic so that Kurt doesn't have to give the mic to Dick. And this is a big, like, and they didn't know Kurt. Well, Kurt was a great gentleman, okay?

And obviously Dick, the ultimate gentleman. And I said, you've got to be kidding me. So here I am standing in the middle of these two legendary broad, well, Dick became a legendary podcast. If I'm going to run the show, okay? And as I'm standing there, a manager from Indiana came over. They just blew the teams off and shooting around.

And he said, Bob Knight wants to talk to you right away. Well, Knight and I had played against each other in college. And Bob was a sub-in-starter. If he's listened to this, he ate when I bring that up. But anyway, I go across the court and figure, you know, this is Bob's first chance to win a national championship. this will be my second one to call, and he may be neat words of encouragement.

So I strut across that floor all by myself, and I get on the other side, and nights on his knees, got one of those plaid coats on, got a great team he had with Buckner and all those guys, May and all those guys, and I kind of push him aside,

and he just lifts up his head, and he says, and I won't use the exact language he used, but, hey, Packer, and you got to remember, that was Michigan, it's Indiana, he goes, where the hell is the ACC tonight? It's a long walk back across that floor, I can tell you that. Yeah, that's, well, you know, the ACC had that reputation,

remember in that era of being the best league, but the Big Ten always had an issue with that, didn't they? Well, he had, he, it just goes to show you how Bob's mind could be working, okay? And like I said, that wasn't the exact language, but, uh, he made his point very well right before the game started. By the way, that night was that the best team you've ever seen, the 76 Indiana team that went undefeated? I think the UCLA team were the best teams I ever saw. The cream jubars, those were the best college teams I ever saw.

So back to McGuire. So how does McGuire become part of the group? Well, what happens? Al, this is a very big. crazy story. I did not like him as a person. I did not like the way he coached in practice. I thought he was a total pain in the neck, okay? And so he, in 1977, he resigns and retires mid-season. His team is about, I guess they were about, had a record of like 9 and 6 or something like that. And I'm doing a game in Cincinnati. And, I'm doing a game in Cincinnati.

against Marquette's playing Cincinnati, and they get killed by Cincinnati. So I think that makes them something like 9 and 8. And so I figured, you know, hey, he's had a great run. I don't like the guy. I don't like his attitude. And at least I should, you know, congratulate him on having a great run at Marquette. So I go and they're loading up on the bus.

I get on the bus, and he's sitting in the front seat. And I say, coach, he never even looks up, like tremendous career, and I want to wish you the best of luck. Never says a word to me. And all of a sudden he looks up and says, we're leaving. I get off the bus, and I say, what a jerk this guy is, okay? So it turns around, they go on a heck of a run to win the national championship. and he never even goes to practice,

Majeris and Hank Raymond's, they're coaching a team, and I'm thinking, what a jerk this guy is. Well, sure enough, he wins the national championship in great fashion. And that summer, NBC calls and said, hey, you know, we've got a chance to get Al McGuire and we're going to think about you three guys working together, but we're not going to have Al. Al's going to do the halftime shows,

and he's going to be broadcasting from the locker room. And I said, you know, whatever you guys want to do is fine with me, and I figured, well, you know, who knows what. So Dick and I, we're happy to have Al come on board. And so the first game is in Milwaukee, and they have him hooked up in the locker room. And so Dick and I broadcast the game. and Dick had a button that whenever he thought there might be something Al would like to say,

he would put it and ask Al a question, or if Al saw something in the game that he liked, Dick's light would come out and Al could say something because they didn't think three guys could potentially do a basketball game all on the court. So the game went on and that never came on. So Dick at halftime said, you know, we better go see if there's something wrong with the engineering. And Alan already got in there in the man, the guy in the locker room said, oh, he left. He's not here for the second half, okay? So the second game, the same setup was there.

So Dick said to me, Billy, now Dick always says it was my thought. I say it was Dick's thought. why don't we just have him come out and sit with us so he can, you know, be part of the game? And we did that. And it didn't work out so well because it was Dick, and then I was in the middle, and Al was on the other side of me. And Al wasn't put much in the game. So, again, I don't know who gets credit for this.

Dick said, you know, he's not really paying much attention. How about if we put him in the middle? That way I'll know what you're doing, and we know how to work together. And maybe we can get him into the game, and that's how that took place. So it was always Dick, then Al in the middle, and then me on the end. And as time went on, it started to work pretty good. And although he never spent any time with Dick and myself, he'd show up for the game. When the game was over, he'd go.

And we'd never see him. And we did the whole first year that way. And I'm thinking he's the worst guy than I thought he was. and it was Easter Sunday. It's kind of funny. That's a long time ago. I went to church down. It was a final four is in St. Louis, and I went to church for Easter Sunday,

and they have a little chapel down underneath the arch. And it was all crowded and packed, and there were people down there, and there were some homeless people down there. And it was quite a scene. And so I go into Mass, and when it came in time to go up for communion, and I go up and I notice this guy with old beat up clothes on is sitting on the first row, and I look, and it's out. And I'm thinking, well, what the world's the matter with him?

And so when the church ended, I go out, and he's waiting for me. And he says, in his first time, we ever had like a personal talk, and he said, you want to go to lunch? And I said, yeah, sure. So we start walking down on the piers there. And he hollered to some guys on the boat. and he said, I got to come on. I'm from the city's Food Inspector.

And I'm thinking, what in the hell is he talking about? So we get on the boat. He pretends he's there inspecting sanitation on the way that they're he says, where's the kitchen? So we go down, and he has to make us lunch. We eat lunch, and I'm thinking, this guy is approval. And we get off the boat, he says, that was a good way to get a cheap lunch, with it. And from that point on, he became,

the greatest adult friend that I've had. That's crazy. Now, do you think it's because he realized you were a Catholic and you were at Mass on Easter Sunday? I think Al was an incredible person, and he lived a life on a one-way street. And if you ever got a chance to be on his street, during that period of time, you had a wonderful, wonderful experience. but he really decided who and when got on that street with him and I was fortunate

to be on that street a lot Yeah, well, I mean it sounds too with the boat and the lunch story that he was one of those guys that just felt he belonged anywhere and would talk himself into to any place but it made no difference if it was the president of the United States

whether it was some guy in a street corner he had an unusual way to deal with him. He was never really into study in the game of basketball, but he had great instincts about what was happening in a game or something about people, and he was one of the most entertaining people that I've ever seen that really didn't put on any act. It was just all natural.

Did he come to respect your knowledge of the game? I mean, it certainly seemed that way on the broadcast. but did that click after that one get-together? I think I annoyed him in the fact that I really did understand the game. More than he did. Why are we wasting time with this nonsense about zone defense? Let's talk about something else. Right.

Let's talk about aircraft carriers. Dick was the great orchestrator of keeping the two of us from going after each other. A couple more for you because there are just some games that you got to call, and I'm curious what your memories are. You know, March 26, 1979, it's still the most viewed college sporting basketball game in history, Magic in Michigan State against Larry Bird in Indiana State and Salt Lake City. You know, give me a minute or so on that game and those two players in particular. Most overrated basketball game in the history of the sport.

Michigan State was the far superior team. From the very second the game started until the end, there was no question who was going to win. Larry Bird was, and people don't realize this, but Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were teammates the summer prior to that game. in what was called the World Invitational Tournament, a thing that I had a chance to be partners with Eddie Einhorn on. And I broadcast two of those three games. They played against the national team of Yugoslavia, Cuba, and the Soviet Union's national team.

And it was great and to show you how basketball has changed. That team was made up of, the American team was made up of Joe Hall's, lineup for Kentucky that won a national championship. And then we picked up players. We played three different cities. We picked up players from those areas. And then we had two guys that Eddie put on the team that were played on all the games.

And those two guys were Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. Larry Bird, to this day, would probably admit it was probably the worst experience of his basketball career because he hardly got to play at all. And I thought, man, this guy's got a big reputation. He can't play a lick. And Magic, you know, he needs, where is he going to find a position? He can't play guard. He doesn't have a shot.

He's got a great personality, and he loves to play the game. So I saw them that summer, or that after that Kentucky National Championship. So when that game came on, I'm giving you more than you want to know, So we had a game at Duke, and in that game, if the team that lost, I guess it was Marquette, they were playing, the losing team, it looked like Indiana State that was undefeated could move the number one. The game ended early, and the team that was number one was going to go out of there. So we have an interview after the game, and Dick Enberg looks at Al and says, now who do you think is number one? and Al says, Indiana State's got to be number one. I said, you've got to be crazy.

Who the hell will they play? And have you ever seen them play? Maybe a starter on the team. Of course, Al, you know, like Al was giving me hell. And so what happened was we decided, and Eddie Horn, I-Nhorn was brilliant. Indiana State had never been on TV. So Eddie Eindhorn called Ray Marr at the Paul and said, Ray, I know you're going to be on TV next week.

but I'd like you to cancel that game on TV because I want to show Indiana State. And so they changed it, and Indiana State played Wichita up at Indiana State. So I was looking forward to going up and seeing this team, and I knew Al was going to rip the hell out of me, but I had death threats from Terre Haute, Indiana, so NBC took me off the game.

So I went and did a game with Gowdy in Louisville, but then when the NCAA tournament started, NBC had me do all the Indiana State games. So they were not real happy with me at all at Indiana State, including their players. And in practice, when I walked out on the floor, they all had a basketball in their hands, and they all threw basketball at me at the same time trying to knock me on my rear end. So it was not a good introduction to their team. But they worked their way all the way to the final four, a great regional final against Arkansas.

And each game I saw a little bit more about Bird in terms of, first of all, he was unbelievably competitive. He was really nasty. He had great hands, and he knew how to play, and he had a great ability to make his teammates better, but they were not good enough to play against Michigan State, and Michigan State won the game. And when it laid in that game, Dick Enberg said to Al, all right, Al, if you were going to start an NBA team, which one of the two would you pick?

And Al looked at him and said, Greg Kelser. And Dick said, what are you talking about? And Al said, if I was picking an NBA player for my team, I'd take Greg Keltzer. So Dick tried to get off that subject in a hurry, and he looked at me. And I said, I really don't know. I said, magic has no shot. Where is he going to play in the NBA? And I said, Bird really is not maybe athletic enough to be playing small people as a forward.

He's not big enough to be a center. I said, there's got to be a lot of questions in my mind about either one of them. And the very next year, Magic leads the Lakers to the World Championship playing center. And he and Bird turn out to be two of the legendary players of all times. so it shows you how little both Al and I knew about the game. Well, he was much further away than you were with Kelser, obviously. But, you know, the funny thing about that is magic had become, you know, really almost a brand even before that.

And then I do remember when the whole country watched Indiana State on television for the first time because you wanted to see what this guy was, they did, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't they, beat DePaul in the final four? Was it DePaul they beat in the final four? Really good DePaul team. And now there, that was that was the first great

game I ever saw Larry Bird play. They had a choir and Byrd had one of the great semi-final games of all time. And a matter of fact, Sidney Montreve from Arkansas they had the, you know, the triplets.

The triplets. And that regional final was I did that game with Jim Simpson. And that regional final was a great game. But then that semifinal Bird played was tremendous. But in the final game, some of the things that you wondered about with the matchup zone that Michigan State played, he had a hard time. And you didn't realize he was a brilliant shooter from the outside because primarily he played as a power forward for Indiana State. Right. You know, the ACC wasn't there because of that, I think this was the year when Carolina lost a pen in Raleigh and Duke lost,

because Duke was the other really good team that year. Yeah, on the same day. Yeah, on the same day. I call it Black Sunday to this day down in this part of the country. Right. This is so much fun for me, Billy. You've got a great memory and are a great storyteller. And I want to ask you next about the championship game that you called two years,

later at the spectrum in Philadelphia. And I will ask you about that right after this word from one of our sponsors. So two years later, it's the Carolina-Indiana final at the spectrum, the day that Reagan got shot early that day. And they decide to go on with the game. What do you remember about that day? And, you know, was there a possibility that they were going to postpone it? What do you remember about that day in 81?

Well, Al was out doing his toy soldier shopping, and I was studying for the game. So neither one of us had seen any television. So we went over to the game together in a cab, and as we were walking into the arena, a guy hollered about, how about President Reagan? Neither one of us knew that he had been shot. And so Al said, I love the man. And I said, me too. You can count of, I'm a Reagan supporter, but we didn't realize that the guy was talking about him having been shot.

When we got an arena, we heard about the news, and NBC was running around saying, okay, you guys need to go and spend some time deciding what you're going to say and all this kind of stuff. And the same guy I mentioned before, Wayne Duke was the head of the NCAA idiot at the time. and Wayne is a very powerful guy. We had a guy who was the head of NBC thought that he was going to call the shots as whether the game was going to be played or not. And it turned out the NCAA tournament committee said to NBC, you have nothing to say about this. We'll determine when and if the game is going to be played.

And so Al said, well, let's get out of here. And I said, Al, we've got to be thinking. And I said, look, if the president has been shot, the last two guys NBC is going to want talking about that is you and I. And it turned out that that was truthful. And what the word came out to us, they're going to play the Virginia game against North Carolina. Remember back in those days, you had a consolation game.

And we're going to determine whether the championship game is going to be played is going to be determined as to whether or not Reagan is. out of trouble. And so Bobby Knight did not, you know, know whether the game was going to be played for his team in the same way in case of the opponent. So the word came out to us that President Reagan said there's no place I'd rather be than in Philadelphia. And so everybody assumed that meant, and that turned out to be a lie. Reagan wasn't lying, but the word, they came out from the White House, whoever. And so they decided to play the game.

And so Brian Gumble did a great job leading everybody, making the transformation from NBC News to Dick Enberg to start the game. Brian was fantastic as how he handled that, and the game was played. But it was a very, very unusual situation. bigger upset in your mind. Valvano and NC State over Faislamma Jamma in Houston or Villanova over Georgetown. You know, I would have to say Jimmy's win, and the reason I say that is that in the case of Villanova and Georgetown, I really made a big mistake in that game. you know, those teams knew each other so well.

Right. And Villanova had played well against Georgetown and St. John's during that season. As a matter of fact, I think Villanova faced them and played really competitively against them. So there was an awareness of what they were going up against. Had Villanova never seen, let's suppose they were from the Big Ten, had never seen Georgetown play, or gone up against the Patrick Ewing, I think Georgetown would have blown them out, but they were used to it.

And then I think that Raleigh had his guys believing that they could beat them, and of course then even with that, they played the perfect game, and the substitution patterns that he had in that game were unbelievable, and the longer they lasted, the more the pressure went to Georgetown. I think in the NC State game, when you look back at that NC State team, Derek Wittenberg, who came up from your area. To Matthew.

Yep. Derek, wait. MC State was right there with Virginia, with Maryland, with Wake Forest that year, and with Carolina, and with Carolina. The league was unbelievably great that particular season. And Derek had an incredible game. against the junior. I broadcast that game at NC State. I think he had 26, 27 points at half time, and they were taking care of Ralph Samson, and then he got, then he sprained that ankle. Right.

And then they went into a downturn. But that NC State team, had Wittenberg not been hurt in the regular season, would have been a top 10 team. And they were fortunate, as everybody knows, to win the ACC tournament, and having to win all three of those games just to get in the NCAA tournament. And then that incredible run. So I would say that the NC State turnaround and the way that Louisville and Houston played in the semifinal two days before, that was a bigger upset to me. And the fact that when Houston took the lead and Guy Lewis decided to slow the game down, he played right into Jimmy's hands.

and it was an incredible game on their part, and an incredible, you know, we talked about the term coaching, the way a coach orchestrated the game, Guy Lewis had a real bad game, and Jimmy had a phenomenal coaching game. You know, the Villanova win, I had a feeling you were going to say that. Villanova in the Big East teams that year, I mean, they were fearless against Georgetown. They'd seen them too much, and you're probably right, had it been somebody else, it would have been a one-sided beatdown. There was someone I was going to ask you about because this June will be 35 years since his death.

And on the way to Villanova's title, they beat Maryland in the Sweet 16 in Bias' worst game of his career. He was three for 17 from the floor, and they lost to Villanova that year in the Sweet 16 by a point. And then Villanova beat North Carolina before beating Keith Lee, Memphis, et cetera, and then Georgetown.

But Len Byes, what did you think of him and watching him and calling so many of his games? Well, there again, we get to the difference between today's basketball on college level and back in those days. If Lenny Byers was playing in this era, based on potential, he would have left Maryland after one year. Right. Instead, and this is why the game was so much better than both on the United. the college level and the pro level. He had an opportunity to mature as an individual, not only physically but mentally, and understand the game and keep getting better each and every year of his stay at Maryland.

So by the time he was a midway through the junior year, you said, you know, this guy is really special. And then his senior year, obviously he was, you know, as good as you can get on the college level. the disaster of him passing away, I'll never forget that. I did not know his parents prior to his passing, but I did get to know them right thereafter because Don Olmeyer called me and wanted to do a television show about Lenny Byers, and I got to know his parents immediately at that time,

And to this day, I'll always remember meeting his mother for the first time, and it had to be two, three days after he passed away. And it was an incredible experience to see what they had to go through. But without question, I think he was one of the great players, one of the great college players to come along. And I think he would have been, much like Michael Jordan, I think he would have been an even better pro and go down. down as one of the real great ones of all time.

I've always felt whenever we've had these conversations on the various shows I've been on over the years, I've always said, and we got a chance here to work with Coach Thompson, who did a radio show before mine for 10 years, and I got to know him well at the station. And we used to talk about that, and I said, I always thought bias was more Dominique Wilkins. He was more of a forward, where Jordan was a true two guard. I didn't think that he was the next Jordan, I thought he was the best Dominique, the next Dominique Wilkins. You know, the thing about Michael is, and I've told this story a million times, the biggest loss that Dean Smith ever had was when his team, the best team he ever had,

in my estimation, was in 84 when he had Perkins and George, Kennedy Smith and that bunch, and they lost Indiana. Michael and Bobby Knight was the Olympic coach and Bobby told me before the Olympic tryouts Jordan will probably make the team but he said he's really going to be difficult for the start and I said why is that? He said because he can't shoot the damn ball

and he said how can I have a second guard that can't shoot the ball. That was Bobby Knight, a guy that really understands basketball pretty well talking about Michael Jordan, who he had seen for three years and had coached against in the NCAA tournament. And before that. So what we eventually saw Michael become was only because the guy never stopped, like all the great ones, they never stopped trying to get better, and they never stopped working on their weaknesses.

And so when you say Michael was a guard, Michael really became a player that could play any position because he kept working on it even after he left North Carolina. And I think the same thing would be true with Lenny. There were areas that I think he would have kept working on ball handling, passing, and things of that nature to make him a very special player, more special even than Dominique. Yeah, ball handling would have been it. All right, you've been so generous with your time. I did want to ask you, were you ever as you were announcing games over the years,

and people obviously, you know, knew you as a former coach because you were and a player, were you ever offered jobs to coach? Yes, it was. And what were they? I'm not going to say what they were, but it was something that I would, I stopped in a moment. When I, I've kind of been lucky in my life. I've been able to do what I want to do, what I want to do it.

And when I, when Bones McKinney asked me to be a coach, I set a goal to be a head coach at a place that I thought I could be comfortable and I could win at the highest level. When I decided to get out of coaching, when I didn't get that job, which I wanted, which was Memphis, when I didn't get that job, I went on to do other things with my life, and I've never looked back to want to go back and do something over again. So it's kind of like that movie about having things you want to do in your life.

I never wanted to do that again, not because I didn't love it, but there were other things that I wanted to do with my life. And so Memphis was the job that you thought you could win. And obviously they were, you know, a power and played UCLA in one of those finals. No, no, no. This was, I was coaching at Wake. And when I went to work for Bones, I said, coach, I want to do this, but I'm going to set a goal. I do not want to be your assistant coach for, I want to coach through three years as an assistant

and be responsible for the recruiting of getting our team back in play. at that time, I want to make a judgment in my own mind. Am I good enough to be a head coach? And if so, where do I want to be a head coach? Because I don't want to be in a situation where I can't competitively win against the very best. So when that year, Bones had to step down my very first year as an assistant. But when that time came and I've been there for three years, I said, I can coach this game. And I can coach and I can be a winner.

And I was the first one of assistant coaches in the ACC to be involved with bringing in black athletes to the conference. And I felt very comfortable with kids that really didn't come from high-filutant surroundings, and I wanted to go to a school where that would be comfortable. And Memphis was having all kinds of problems, but I felt that it was. They had a great natural recruiting territory. I love the opportunity for kids to be able to go to school there and get an education, even though they weren't the best of students. And I felt that I could coach that team up and have them as a national powerhouse.

And I applied for that job. I think they won six games that year, and I lost it. I was in the hunt for that job and lost it to Gene Bartow. And he got that job, and my decision was, I found out the day he got that job, I was in Arkansas at the NCAA, at the National Junior College Tournament, recruiting artist Gilmore of all people. And Bucky Waters said to me, why are you doing what you're doing? and I told him, and he said, by the way, did you hear that Memphis filled their job with Gene Bartow, who I did not know, I'd never heard of him.

And I called my wife and said, Barb, I didn't get the Memphis job. I'm going to go into business. And that was a decision I made. And my life has been great without that. but I like to set goals for myself and not look backwards. So once I got into business doing the things that I do now and then had that opportunity to broadcast, I never wanted to say, oh, I'm going to go back and do that again.

But just to make sure that I'm clear, while you were broadcasting, you were offered a head coaching job. More than one? Yes. And were any of them tempting? No. Nope. It's like now, somebody said,

I've been asked to go back and broadcast games. The day I decided that it's time to move on, I thought Roy Williams said it a lot better than I could. I'm not the man for this job right now, and there's other things I'd like to do with my life. So I'd never wanted to do something else. So it's just maybe I'm weird that way, but I like to set out goals, work hard to do them, and then maybe do something else.

Other than missing completely on Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, you know, at any other point during your career, you know, I certainly remember you were tough on mid-majors on Selection Sunday. Any of that stuff you've had second thoughts about, you know, over the years? You know, this is kind of funny. When I did a ball game, I, I, love to go into the post-game press conference. And I would listen to the questions and the coach's responses

because I always like to do a double check on, was there something that they felt was important in the game, and did I miss on that? And if I missed on that, try to make sure I never missed on that again. So I like to have my own scoreboard of broadcasting every game. And I did that until I did the next game, reviewing and report-carting on myself. The only guy that I never paid any attention to in the post-game comments as to whether or not I felt it was reflective of something,

not only that I said, but how the game was played was Dean Smith. And the reason for that was Dean Smith, if there was, if there was the problem with one of his players, or there was a problem of something they weren't doing well, he would always talk, let's suppose he had a player that was in a slump. And somebody would say, get ready to say something, he'd say, well, Johnny Jones today did things that I didn't even know he was capable of. Did you see that screen in a two minutes again? And it would be something totally irrelevant, okay?

So I never listened to what he had to say, even though. know he was a brilliant basketball man, but most of the time I did that. So there are a couple of things that I said. One of them involved Raleigh Massimino, as a matter of fact. He played, he took a team down and played at Kentucky. Kentucky was much better than his Villanova team, and his son got in the game, and late in the game. And his son was a, you know, he was a walk-on player.

on the team. And I said, you know, that's really interesting, Raleigh's son in the ball game. I said the SEC probably had the greatest father and son combination of all time in Pete Marovich and Press Marevich. And I said, unfortunately for Raleigh, Raleigh's son will never score as much in his career that Pete scored in two minutes of the game. And it's one of the worst things that I ever said. There's a couple like that that I wish that I had never said, but I don't look back in a game and say, you know, that was kind of stupid. Well, I mean, as you were talking about that, it reminds me, lefty put Chuck Drezel into

the game at Carolina against Jordan and that team at the end of the game and call the play for Chuck to shoot the last shot. and Jordan basically threw it into the third row, although we all think it was gold tending. And he just said afterwards, he said, he said, well, you know I was going to give my son a chance to win the game. And only left he could get away with it. That's right.

I can remember that. Yeah. I really, really enjoyed this. I hope you're doing well. So, you know, you said at the very top, you move on and you find other things to do when you've moved on past certain portions in your life, what are your hobbies? What are you doing these days? Well, everything's been, fortunately, for me, kind of a hobby in life.

I spend most of my time now, 70% of my time involving real estate projects, primarily buying land and developing land. I've got a real neat project in the North Carolina Mountains. Now we're building a high-end Class A motor coach park. So I just like the competitiveness, and right now in business, things are very competitive, and where our country's going right now, maybe the most competitive period of time we've got ahead of us that I've ever seen. But I just like the competition of being in business, finding something that I'd like to buy. I think I'm buying right and try to sell it right.

So that's what I do with most of my time. One final one. Are you going to really, you won't watch these games tomorrow and Monday night, or will you? Yeah, I'll watch these games. I, again, I don't watch them in the same way that I used to watch them, and I don't watch them rooting for one team to lose it up, but I'll be very interested. My wife hates when she has to sit and I watch the game,

because I'll make comments that she says, you know, you don't know anything about it anymore. Why don't you keep quiet? but I do like to have an opinion. And again, on a note with Roy Williams, I had great respect for him, but I watched Roy's teams play this year, and I don't know how many times I said to my wife, I said, Roy needs to get out of this.

This is not where he needs to be anymore. And so I was not surprised yesterday because he's had such an incredible career. I think the way he got out with dignity is really great, not happy for him. But who do you think Carolina's next coach will be? You know, we could talk for hours on this. Not about the person, but I really think that if I was an athletic director,

I would demand that college basketball put together a committee to sit down and say, where are we going? Because what is this next? As an example, let's suppose he's a brilliant basketball man and a teacher. his first assistant coach may be the guy that becomes the expert on the kids that can transfer. So you no longer recruit high school kids. You recruit other colleges to know who you're going to go after in the transfer portal. Your next best assistant coach may be like Russ Potts used to be at Maryland.

You're marketing directly because he's got to go out and find companies that want to endorse the recruit. you bring in, it's going to be an entirely different methodology of how you pick your head coach than it was 25 years ago. And unless somebody understands that's where the game is and where it's going, they're going to make a big mistake whoever they pick. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. It was really my pleasure.

I'm glad you're well. You sound well. Take care. and somewhere down the road hope to do this again with you. Okay, well, I appreciate this time. Thank you.