The Kevin Sheehan Show - New Info On Commanders' Sale

Episode Date: February 10, 2023

Kevin opened the show talking to Josh Kosman/NY Post about new information on Dan Snyder's attempt to sell the Washington Commanders. Kevin reacted to comments from Ron Rivera and Taylor Heinicke about Sam Howell. He also had two "Smell Test" Super Bowl picks and was joined by Tim Legler/ESPN to talk NBA trades and get Tim's Super Bowl prediction as well.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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MyBooky is allowing you to wager your deposit amount one time and then cash out immediately they're out. After. Now, as far as Sunday's game, they've got everything, all the prop bets you want, all of the game stuff you want. You can bet the game, pregame, in game. They may give you an opportunity to bet it after it's over. Probably not. But go to my bookie.orgie. Use my promo code Kevin D.C. Take advantage of this opportunity that MyBooky is offering. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere with MyBooky. A busy show today. I will have Super Bowl thoughts, a Super Bowl pick. test pick, two smell test picks on the game. Ron Rivera spoke on Radio Roe yesterday about the quarterback situation. Taylor Heineke was a guest on the Pat McAfee show yesterday and had very nice things to say about Sam Howl. You'll hear some of that. Tim Legler is going to be on with us. No coolly today. I don't know if we'll have him tomorrow or not. He's actually out of the country and so I have not been in contact with him for a few days. I'd love to be. I'd love to to have him on and have him preview the game on Sunday and pick it. Maybe that'll happen tomorrow.

We shall see. But we are going to start the show with Josh Cosman. Who's Josh Cosman? Josh Cosman is a reporter for the New York Post. He covers business. He covers sports business. And this morning, he tweeted out the following. Efforts to sell the Washington commanders aren't going well. and some are hoping Jeff Bezos will deliver a game-saving play. Josh, welcome to the podcast. I really appreciate you jumping on with me. Please tell us what you know about Dan Snyder's attempt to sell the team. Yeah, thanks, Kevin, for reaching out.

So basically what we're breaking is that the sale isn't going well. So Dan Snyder behind the scenes had a $6 billion or has a $6 billion minimum price. There are really two suitors. One's John Harris, who owns the Philadelphia 76ers, and there's a mystery bidder. Both of them are having a very hard time getting to $6 billion. $6 billion or $7 billion? Sorry to interrupt. So six.

So some of the reports... Six is a real number. Okay. All right. So the reports about the bidders coming in in the first round at 6.3. the highest bidder, that's inaccurate? It's not that it's completely inaccurate. Those were indications of interest

just to get you across the threshold, to do due diligence and raise your money. So there was an indication of interest. Actually, there were two at around $6 billion, but that didn't mean they had the money. So Josh Harris does not have the money to buy the team itself, by himself. So he's scrambling for,

co-investors. So is the mystery bidder, from what I understand. And this is well-sourced, and I think both parties are scrambling for co-investors, and they both might not believe, from what I understand, that the team is worth $6 billion. If you think about it, the Broncos were sold last year for $4.65 billion. Why should Washington be worth $6 when you probably also need to build a new stadium, which will include some private financing. So I think they're both hesitant about it even being worth six, and they both are scrambling for co-investors. So it seems as though, although it's fluid,

it seems as though neither party is going to get to six. And then we'll see. Then then a lot can happen. Okay. So a lot to take in here. So we've been thinking all along that the $6.3 billion and that the reporting that Snyder wants $7 billion and that somebody would eventually get close enough

and potentially he'll sell the team. So now we're at $6 billion. What do you think his appetite is to sell the team for $6 billion when maybe a lot of the hype, Josh, you know, when he first announced that he's going to explore the possibility of selling the team was not only $7 billion, but was north of $7 billion. dollars. It's, well, it's hard to get into Dan Snyder's mind, and maybe that's a place we don't want to go anyway.

So I'm not going to pretend to know what he's thinking. I think a lot of people are trying to figure that out. So there is a possibility. He set this up for failure. He never wanted to sell anyway. This gave him cover from the congressional hearings. So he said a number that he didn't think anyone would reach. if they did fine, but if they didn't, okay.

And then he says two months from now, I couldn't find an adequate buyer. I'm keeping the team. And by that time, perhaps if there's not a lot in the Mary Joe White investigation that forces the NFL to force him to sell, he gets to keep the team. So there is that thought. There is also a thought that he only bought the team for $600 some odd million. if the best he can get his $5 billion, that is still a huge amount of money. He walks away and at the end of the day he takes it. Of course, the wild card in all this is Jeff Bezos,

who's long wanted to buy the Washington football team, who is not in the process right now, but sources think is buzzing around and may certainly be asked when this process sort of fails, hey, would you like to buy the team for $6 billion? So that's the very interesting wild card. And Kevin, just a note, which is all body language, but it's interesting. Source is very close to the situation.

Tell me Bezos is not going to the Super Bowl on Sunday. Bezos goes every year. He's always in the owner's box. Makes a bit of a spectacle of it. And, of course, Amazon broadcast Thursday night football. So it's a little odd he's not going. There could be an innocent reason that has nothing to do with a commander's sale. Then again, if he's trying to be stealth and will.

ultimately by the team, you wouldn't want to show up. And the speculation is that may be what's going on. All right. Before we get to Bezos, which you've already covered some of it that I was going to ask you about, I want to go back to Josh Harris and the mystery bidder. So essentially what you're saying is that the price tag of $6 billion isn't doable for either one of those two parties without, you know, without co-investors. Because if I have this right, basically 30%, so at $6 billion, $1.8 billion, has to be put down basically up front in cash, right? It's got to be liquid cash up front of $1.8 billion. So, first of all, is that true?

That's what I've heard, that 30%. Well, that's pretty good. So the 30%'s right. Okay. The only thing that you've got wrong, which is only slightly wrong, I mean, I would say you're right, is that you can borrow a billion dollars against the team. So at six, that means really you need to come up with $1. five, because the NFL will let you borrow a billion dollars against an NFL team.

Okay, so the 11th. 30% of five, which is 1.5 billion of equity, which is a lot of money for either, I have a sense who the mystery buyer is, and we know Josh Harris. For both of them, they can come up with 1.5, but they will have a hard time coming up with all the equity that's needed, which is an additional 3.5. So they need co-investors who are willing to be minority partners and take significant interest. Because $3.5 billion is a lot of money. Yes, it is.

So with respect to those, first of all, the mystery bidder, do you know who it is? I know who I think it is. I haven't reported it because I'm not come. I don't feel comfortable enough to report it, but I'm 80% sure who it is. So what happened to the other four bidders? because there was a report that the initial bids that came in on December 23rd, that there were up to a half dozen bidders. What happened to the rest of them?

Was it just too expensive for them? I think basically, yes. So the commanders generate, once one saw the sales books, they generate about $150 million in profit. I mean, there's no shame in that, but put the multiple on $6 billion, and that's a huge number. and the realization that you're probably going to need to build a new stadium with at least some private money, maybe all private money. We don't know yet. So that's a lot of money. So I think that, and that's a big price. So I think that as suitors dug in, they got less excited. So one is John Henry, I believe, who owns the Boston Red Sox, as well as the Liverpool soccer team. And I think once he dug into the numbers, he backed out. So my intelligence, they on multiple sources, there's two suitors left.

But remember, then doesn't include Bezos, who is never in, who is hovering around this process. By the way, just curious, what's the $150 million in profit off of what revenue number? I don't know the revenue number. Okay. $150 million, by the way, is a little, it's a kind of average-ish for an NFL team. There are definitely teams with less because of revenue sharing a national TV. contracts. Every NFL team basically makes money. 150 is kind of par for the course. Yeah, I was told that with respect to sort of their, you know, gross revenue or the ancillary revenue after the media

revenues. So everything else that really the team is responsible for, that they were kind of in the bottom third of the league, you know, and had, you know, at one point, they were top two along with the Cowboys in overall revenue, but that they had dropped. So I didn't, I was trying to figure out what that hundred so you think the 150 million in profit is just average yeah it's roughly average i mean what are the cowboys do one of i don't a lot more yeah but i don't know how much more um i think that uh one of the for suitors and the the sell side i think what they are saying is hey you can boost revenue and profit because of exactly, Kevin, what you just said. This used to be a top five revenue grossing team. You know, you can get it back to there by putting a good team on the field

and I guess getting a lot of the staying out of the commanders. But that is one of the selling points. But right now, you know, you're basing it on what's what is right now and based on what it is, this is an average NFL team as far as profit. Not bad. You're not going to have. You're not going have to fund the team. The time thing generates enough money. Yeah, right. But, but, but it's, but, but to get to a six billion valuation, you know, this is not the Cowboys. No, no NFL owners writing checks out of his own account to meet, to make payroll. That's for sure. We're talking to Josh, although in other leagues remember, that happened to a lot. Of course. But on the NFL, that's why every, every, every, everybody wants to own a sports team. I don't own a football.

You know, the conversation about valuation, you know, I'm surprised that even, you know, someone would even mention multiples. There's no industry multiple for the sale of an NFL team. Is there? It's about supply demand. There's very little supply. And typically there's overwhelming demand, right or wrong? No, that is right. I think that is right.

And it's a good point. You know, at some point, does the carousel stop when the Carolina Panthers sold? they sold for less than they wanted, and it seemed like maybe we had at the peak. But then here came the Broncos in $4.65 billion. So we don't know. But yeah, ultimately, like housing prices, they seem to always go higher. All right. You mentioned before we get to the likelihood or not of Bezos coming in and paying the number,

you said that Bezos has long wanted to buy Washington. I don't know that I knew that. I knew that Bezos wanted to become an NFL owner. But has Washington always been the apple of his eye? It's Washington or Seattle. So for a long, when I say a long time, let's say the last five years, he has let it be known to NFL insiders. I'd like to buy an NFL team.

And of course, the NFL would love Bezos. He's worth $100 billion plus. Loves football. You know, they want Bezos. and he has made it clear he wanted one of two teams, either Washington or Seattle. Now, interestingly, Washington on the market, while Seattle might very well be going on the market in the next year or two. So this is his window. Yeah, I mean, I think we all believe that Seattle might be the next one.

I mean, look, at $6 billion or $6 billion plus, it wouldn't surprise me, would it you if other NFL owners, maybe even TEPPER, who's never been in it for the football necessarily, look to go ahead and flip the Panthers and maybe another team or two took advantage of the marketplace and tried to sell at these high numbers? Well, we'll see. I mean, that's what's going on now. I mean, there's a few questions here.

I mean, one, and we're not at the end of the sale, you know, what does the best bid Snyder gets? It might end up being around $5 billion, not $6. That's what I think. 4.65 was the record. It still would be a record. but it wouldn't be what Snyder's been talking about. Right.

But then the question is what is Bezos? For the first question, before you get to Bezos, the first question is then what does Snyder do? And I don't know, I don't have an answer to that. There's speculation both ways. But if he says no, and again, that's if, if he says no, and this was always set up to be a busted auction, then the big question is what does Goodell do?

Are there 24 owners to force him to sell? to they would need a vote of 24 of the 32 owners. Does Goodell force it? It's never happened before. If he does, are there 24 votes? That's also, I've talked to an NFL owner. That is an open question. That's not a guarantee.

If that all happened, then I think there's a pretty good chance. Bezos buys the team. The NFL's been courting Bezos. If Bezos could buy it without Snyder's interference, since they don't get along, I would think Bezos wins, and Bezos probably pays, you know, a pretty good price. You said the NFL owners would love to have Jeff Bezos. You know, I've contemplated that in the past, and I didn't know the answer to it. You know, he would be a lot wealthier than any of them.

There's no salary cap on anything other than your players and your roster. He could outspend everybody on coaches and front offices, et cetera. He also is a partner of the league. I don't know if there's any sort of conflict of interest there, but it sounds to me like you think that they would love to have Bezos as an NFL owner. Why? Lifts everybody's value. He'd probably be a very active owner in a good way.

I don't know what his plan to be. I'm just making a guess, but could he bring the commanders back into D.C. proper and build a brand new sparkling stadium. I think the chances are not so small that would happen. Right. So he would be somebody who would be seen as friendly to Goodell and would be someone with a lot of money

who raises everybody's value. And, of course, he is very dedicated to football. The NFL loves what Amazon is doing. Amazon's paying a billion dollars a year for Thursday night football, and they'll probably get more games. And he would probably be a very active owner who could help, and they've already done a good job to give them credit, but he would probably help the NFL move more to streaming broadcast

into this new generation. Again, the NFL has done better than other leagues in this area already. But I think they, in fact, I more than think, they like Bezos a lot. The more involved Bezos gets, the better they believe it is for everybody. And of course, you being in D.C., you would know, I'm sure you would feel the same way to bring the D.C. football team back to its, you know, prominence of the 80s would be great for the league. Yeah, no, I think that, you know, I've talked about it a lot.

Regardless of all of these investigations and lawsuits and everything else, to me that misses the big picture point, which is this market's not viable. to the level in which the NFL wants it with Snyder here. You know, he's essentially chased away two-thirds of the fan base from what was one of the great fan bases and one of the great revenue generators for the league is now, you know, not a top earner, far from it, and it's been an embarrassment of a market for them.

So, yes, of course. I mean, I think at this point we would take anybody and the idea of Bezos in understanding what he'd be able to do where he wouldn't need necessarily private financing. You know, he wouldn't need the D.C. jurisdiction to get behind it. He could write the check himself, buy the land himself, and build the stadium downtown. That would be awesome. There are a couple of things that you've mentioned I want to get to.

On Bezos, you know, there's been this belief that, you know, the Snyders who blame everybody else for their predicament other than themselves probably, you know, hold the post somewhat responsible for their current situation. Do you think he would sell the team to Bezos? I don't know. I should step back. I don't know. Everything you said is right, as far as I understand.

He certainly is going to make it hard for Jeff, but, you know, there's a couple things there. I mean, one, if Bezos is clearly the lead bidder, if he comes in at the end, he has not bid yet. But if he comes in at the end and says, you know, your best bid is 5.2. Here's six. You want it? well, you know, I don't know, Dan. I can't get inside Snyder's head. Maybe at the end of the day, that's a lot of money.

Maybe he holds his nose and takes it. I don't know, but that will be an interesting question. Certainly if Bezos, as we reported earlier, we've heard he's exploring, you know, in a very loose way, selling the Washington Post is a sign of goodwill. If he does that, then I think Snyder probably is happy to take it. him in. And then there's the third scenario, of course, which is the NFL forces the issue. And I think the NFL would be happy to have Bezos and then Snyder won't have a choice. Yeah, the issue is whether, you know, the, if they force Bezos as an owner and he says, no, will they vote him out? You know, do they have 24 votes to vote him out? I mean, that seems,

unless there's a lot looming with the Mary Joe White investigation and other things, I don't know, what do you think? Do you think that really there are 24 owners that if he said, I didn't get my number, I'm not selling to Bezos, I'm keeping the team, I did my best to try to sell it on my own, do you think they'd vote him out?

I think it all matters what's in that Mary Jo White report, which I have no idea what's in there. But if it's a he said, she said, as bad as it looks for Snyder, there's a Republican House, the congressional investigation seemed to be taken, able, my guess is he survives. Goodell, my guess is Goodell doesn't force the issue.

However, if in the investigation, if it confirms a lot of what the Washington Post is reported and there's been real sexual harassment, possibly assault, tax evasion, if it's as bad as the Washington Post is reported and marriage or white serious, so if it's in there, then I think Goodell's left with no choice. I think he shows it to the other owners and maybe they'd be. do force them out. I agree with you, but I just have a hard time believing the Tiffany Johnston allegations that they could ever be proved and that it's that it rises to anything other than he said. She said and by the way, it may you suggested he may look bad. I think he'd feel

exonerated in many ways. I think he believes the House Oversight and Reform Committee ultimate conclusions left him feeling like it was a win to a certain degree. You know, you um, one of the things I haven't addressed, you know, especially given that the price is a little bit more suppressed than we thought, do you think there's any chance he would sell a non-controlling stake or that anybody would be interested in a minority share? I don't think so. Right.

You know, of course you said anybody. So anybody maybe, but generally I don't think so. What about selling, you know, 70% of the team and keeping 30% of the team, and keeping 30% of it in some sort of trust for his kids and knowing that the evaluation of these teams don't go down, they keep going up. Do you think that's in play? And then, by the way, the new owner doesn't have to come up with, you know, $6 billion. He's got to come up with, you know, $4.2 billion. Well, that's an interesting, well, I think that's an interesting potential compromise.

At that point, though, a buyer's got to be comfortable that's not, you know, there isn't going to be a Mary Joe White. report, you know, we're appearing in the Washington Post, you know, that says Snyder has done some of the alleged stuff that he's done, or may have done. I don't know that he's done it, may have done. Then you certainly don't want him as a minority owner and you're back in the soup again. So again, I think it all comes back to, and I like your take. I think from what I know of Snyder, I also agree. He may feel exonerated if, you know, if it goes in a certain direction. I'm back and I'm running the team and let's have another eight and eight season. Yeah. Well, and again, it's missing the forest for the trees, Josh, because it really, for the

fan base, and by the way, I'm not suggesting that it's not important to those alleged victims and actual victims of their toxic workplace. I know it's important to them, but the only thing that's important to people here in D.C. for the most part is that he's gone. And the more Markets just not viable as a top-tier NFL market with him owning it, whether he feels good about the results of the Mary Joe White investigation or not. To me, it's irrelevant with the Mary Joe White investigation produces. He's got to go. Like, it's the only way that.

And I think the NFL owners understand that. Like, I have heard Goodell suggest we've got to wait for the results of the Mary Joe White investigation to come out. And I would hate to see Goodell ultimately say, you know what? we did this investigation, and it was a lot of he said, she said, and we can't vote him out. He's going to keep the team. Really, the goal here is to improve the market, and that happens with him gone. And that depends on, you know, in the NBA, they just forced the Phoenix Suns owner out.

Sarver, yeah. Yeah, Sarver. I mean, based on, yes, he ended a great job with their investigation and reporting. That wasn't me. but based on what they reported, the stuff against Snyder is three times worse. But, you know, the NBA has shown in the Clipper situation, in the Sun situation, that they are willing to force a troubled owner out because they want a certain level of professionalism with their owners. You know, with the NFL, you know, I don't want to, I should, I should be careful to express what I think I know as a reporter and opinion.

But, you know, they do lots of things where you're a little bit scratched in your head and saying, you know, why is this guy on TV, you know, the NFL's clearly supporting who's been accused of murder? You know, why aren't they doing more about concussions? Why are they treating players who reach settlements in the concussion case? Why are they dragging their feet and fighting for every last dollar with these people whose families have really suffered? So I think that you can certainly give credit to Goodell for the earnings that the league has and each team has. It's very enviable. He's done an amazing job and the NFL is still popular. At the same time, you know, the morals of the league, you know, there's questions.

and I think that I agree with you and maybe in another league, whether it be baseball or basketball or hockey, they force someone like Snyder out. Whether that happens here, we're not at that point yet, but we'll see. Cadell's not been quite in this spot yet, and here's an owner which I think based on most people's opinions should be forced out. Yeah, I think the only difference, the significant difference actually between, say, a Sarver or a Sterling and Snyder, is that there was a racial aspect to it with Sterling and with Sarver. And even with Jerry Richardson, you know, the Panthers owner who eventually sold voluntarily. There's never been any of that remotely with Snyder.

All right. So a couple more. And I appreciate the time so much. You know, if the sale price really in a bidder's mind is $5 billion, then Denver sold for too much. because Washington and Denver are not comparable as markets and market opportunities, right? Shouldn't Washington sell for a lot more than Denver? I don't know about that. I mean, certainly for Denver, they did get a bazillionaire to bid in Rob Walton,

who very much wanted the team. So, you know, just as if Bezos bids for the commanders, you will have that here too. So there's just that, you know, what is the market? But as far as the value of the teams, Washington needs a new stadium, likely in this political environment, and I mean nationally, not just locally in D.C. and Maryland and Virginia, that's going to take some private funding. That's some money. This isn't such an easy team to revitalize, and you could certainly argue that, well, I don't know. I guess you wouldn't argue Denver's a better market than D.C. because certainly you've got a lot of Virginia, Maryland. I mean, you have a lot of

but I know what you're saying, you're, you know, because Denver didn't lose two-thirds of its fan base. This is good. Now, some could argue once Snyder goes, a lot of that's going to come back, that he's been the biggest impediment, which he has been. But, no, I understand where you're going with it. I think actually there's a really good argument if I were bidding on the team. I can't. But I would say, look, you know, we have to spend money on a new stadium, you know, which is a huge. huge number, and then the cost of customer acquisition is going to be much higher than it was

in Denver because you lost all these people. We got to go get them back. Yeah. I think there's something to that. And good point with Jerry Richardson, by the way. You're right. The NFL did force them out without a vote, but they pressured him to go. So that is true. That is a time that they did it. I guess I wonder, you know, is the, again, I don't know what's the truth and what's not, but Or at least the allegations of what they did to their cheerleaders and women in the workplace. Why is that? And I know you're not asking.

You're not suggesting otherwise. But to the NFL, why is that any less than calling someone the N-word? Like it's a woman. So that's okay. But if you're doing it, if it's racial, it's not okay. No, no. I understand. I'm just pointing out that Sterling and Sarver, because it was racially tinged,

in the case of Sterling's much more than that. That's just an absolute you-gots-to-go situation. In sports, I think, you know, in the NBA, I think it would be in the NFL too. There's just never been with Snyder any, you know, even hint of racism anywhere with him during his ownership. Look, many people have made the case to me over the years, Josh, that, you know, he's not a racist, he's not a homophobic, he's not a trans,

obies. Not any of the things that cost you teams. He's just a terrible, terrible owner, you know? And can the other, can you find 24 guys that own teams to vote him out because he's a terrible owner? But there's more than that. We understand that there was a very toxic workplace that he was, you know, the chairman of the board and oversaw. So I'll finish with this. What do you think happens and what do you think the timeline is? You're best. guess? I guess by, well, the owner's meeting is on March 26th, so they'll want a resolution by them, meaning the NFL will want a resolution.

That's not that far away. So I guess the only thing I'd predict is I don't know this. So again, I want to be careful with what I do believe I know based on multiple very good sources who are inside this and based on opinion. I know, I believe I know. I'm not in the room. I believe I'm very confident the process is not going as well as at least Bank of America, Snyder's Bank wants. Now, again, who knows what Snyder's ultimate goal is? Maybe he has set this up to fail, but it's not going according to plan. That I'm confident of.

My gut, it's not knowledge. My gut would be that when we get to late March, he will try to hold on. He'll try to hold on to team and then we'll see where this goes. That's my gut of what happened. Oh, God. I mean, you know, I have to tell you that, first of all, this has been fascinating because there's just been so much reporting and who knows really at this point what's true. But the thing that's alarming to me from this conversation is what you said very early on, is that it's not going well because bidders, potential buyers can't wrap their arms around a number that maybe he wants. They think it's, and why that bothers me is this is a guy that, you know, perhaps would

choose not to sell for, say, five and a half to six billion because he might look like he lost in the sale process, you know, versus it'll still be the largest sale in the history of North American sports. But if it isn't what people, and maybe he thought it should be, you know, he does. doesn't want to look like he lost his team and then he also lost in the process of selling the team. Like he didn't get a good deal because this is a guy in football, Josh, whose teams over the years have been fleeced at every turn. You know, every single trade, every single free agent situation. I mean, this guy offered 30% above market value, you know, for 10 to 12 years on every free agent.

And so, I don't know, maybe that's the part that worries me, you know, impulsive, wanting to look good and wanting to win big in the sale. And if it ends up being $5.5 billion, he may view that as not a big win, perception-wise. I think that all makes sense to me. And it's a pretty fascinating situation. You know, here in New York, different set of circumstances, but people hate Jimmy Dolan, the owner of the Knicks and Rangers, they want him out. There's some of the same, I mean, there's no sexual harassment allegations against Jimmy Dolan, but some of the same stuff is playing out. And so I guess, I guess of what the fans probably are feeling. I understand that.

And at the same time, yeah, it's a fascinating process. It's not clear how it's going to end up. But the bad news, I suppose, if you're a commander's fan or you want to see a sale, is the press. process right now is not going according to plan. It doesn't mean it will end up as a failure, but right now it's not going well. Boy, the Dolan analogy is the one I've used so many times. To me, like the Knicks with their passionate fan base and horrible ownership in Washington with their once passionate fan base and just horrible ownership, there's a lot of similarities. Josh, thank you so much for doing this on such short notice as well. Josh Cosman writes for

The New York Post, you can follow him on Twitter at Josh Cosman, K-O-S-M-A-N. And as I mentioned, the reason I reached out to Josh is he tweeted out this morning what he told us was going to be in their newsletter called On the Money. Just follow him at Josh Cosman, and you can find a free subscription to On the Money. Best of luck with that, Josh. Thanks so much. Maybe we'll be talking down the road. I appreciate it.

Good, thanks. Happy to come on. So that was kind of interesting, wasn't it? At least from my perspective, it was. You know, when we get to the end of this, whatever the end of this looks like, I guess we'll look back and we'll, you know, be able to judge who had the best sources, who had the best information. Even that may be unfair because whatever, you know, Josh is reporting now or front office sports reported yesterday or the day before or some other, you know, entity reported, they may have been right at the time. but I know it's kind of hard to know what's true and what isn't. I mean, the only thing we've gotten from the team is the announcement in November about Bank of America being retained.

We get nothing from the league. But I think what was interesting about this is that there was some new introduced into the conversation about the sale of the team. New being the price tag, much lower than anybody. but he's really talking about. Number two is just the number of bidders dwindling. You know, essentially Josh Harris and a mystery bidder, it's as if they got to look at the prospectus and they said, nah, you're not worth that. And then three, and I didn't know this, maybe many of you did, or some of you did. I didn't know that Jeff Bezos had made it clear

that Seattle and Washington were the two franchises that he'd want to purchase if they ever became available. Seattle makes sense. I mean, that's where Amazon was founded. He lived there for, you know, multiple decades. Washington makes sense. I mean, I understand. He owns the post. He has a beautiful mansion in Calorama. But I thought he was just looking to get into the NFL. Anyway, take all of, you know, what Josh said any way you want. I found it to be very interesting and actually in some ways a little bit disconcerting because of what I talked to him there about at the end. And that is Snyder's going to want to look really good with this sale. It's hard not to look good if you sell this thing for $5 billion after you acquired it for $800 million, you know, 24 years earlier.

But, yeah, he's going to want to win. He's going to want to look good winning. I personally still think he's going to sell the team. That's still my position, even after my conversation with Josh, where he leans kind of against that. All right. Up next, my smell test picks for Super Bowl 57, my final score prediction, and a couple of things that came from Ron Rivera and Taylor Heineke yesterday. We'll get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. I mean, don't you think there could be a lot of improvement on that side of the ball next year?

Oh, I think there can be most certainly. And again, you know, the thing that you look for is consistent play from the quarterback position. You know, I got trapped into a question during the season. You were to ask me, what's the difference between you and the other three teams of the individual? I said, quarterback play. I mean, that's the biggest thing. Quarterback, if you look at the consistency in which they have had that guy. I mean, each quarterback that those three guys have had, those three teams have been with their team at least three years.

All right, Jalen was there at least three years. Dennis was there for four years, okay? And then you look at Dak Prescott, who's been there a while too. It's not like all of a sudden they went and found a guy who plugged him in and let's go. No, they've had a guy that's been there, has been developing, has developed a rapport amongst his teammates. We've been trying to find that consistency and get ourselves into that position and find it so that we have consistent play.

Ron Rivera yesterday, making the rounds out in Arizona on Radio Row with the Maggie and Perloff show on CBS Sports Radio. He got trapped into that answer earlier this show. year, you know, damn you beat reporters, Ben Standing, Nicky Javala, John Kime, Michael Phillips, damn you guys. I mean, don't do that to poor Ron. You trapped him into quarterback, which was, you know, the answer to the question, why are you not thriving and the other three teams in the division are thriving? And he said, quarterback. What's funny about that is I just think, you know, Ron just kind of pitches to whomever is in front of him at the time and he's trying to

persuade them on some, you know, grandiose philosophy or vision or whatever. At the time, Cooper Rush was the starting quarterback of the Cowboys. I know he was referring to Dak Prescott. Daniel Jones and Jalen Hertz were the other two quarterbacks, you know? I mean, Daniel Jones at that point wasn't even, you know, certainly wasn't a lock. I mean, most people thought before the season started, it was going to be Daniel Jones's final year in New York. Most people thought that Jalen Hertz was the mystery man in Philadelphia. They've got a great roster, but what's Jalen Hertz like? I like Jalen Hertz.

He's played well. Daniel Jones obviously has played well. And it turns out that the three or four years that they spent, you know, being groomed for the ability to lead a playoff team in the division that those teams knew all along that it was going to be those guys. They didn't, though. That's the irony of the season. statement is that they weren't, you know, grooming these guys. I mean, Daniel Jones got picked in the

first round, understood, had all these different, you know, offensive coordinators, et cetera. But whatever. I mean, Ron got trapped. There was more Ron, more specific to Sam Hal. Here's what he said. You know, we had a young man that we drafted last year in the fifth round, Sam Hal, a guy that, you know, he had a good junior year, very good junior. And if he'd come out, may have been a higher pick than that. Didn't, but came out his senior year and fell to us in the fifth round. We took Sam. We've always liked Sam. We've thought of a lot about his abilities, his arm strength, his decision making, and got an opportunity to watch him grow over the year. Played him in the last game the year against Dallas. Played very well. We won the football game.

He did a lot of good things, made some good decisions, stuff like that. We want to go into this offseason as him being QB1 to begin with. And we'll see how these unfold as we go through OTA. mini camp and then into training camp. This is an opportunity for him to establish who we can be for us, and we'll see what happens. Now, we still got to go through free agency in the draft and see if we can find a veteran quarterback. You know, we like who we have.

We like Taylor in the room as well. So we'll see what happens. Ron Rivera, again publicly stating that Sam Howell entering this offseason is QB1. You know, he talked about, you know, a veteran quarterback and him having to earn it, understood. but as we discussed yesterday, it's his job to lose. That's essentially what Ron Rivera is saying, that they enter this offseason. They like Sam.

They've liked Sam all along. Junior year. Actually, it was, whatever, it was redshirt junior year. Great year. And then the final year at Carolina didn't have all the pieces. They've got their talking points on that. By the way, it's accurate. The team that he had around him in the final year at North Carolina was not as good

as the team he had around him the year before. The two great running backs weren't there. Diami Brown wasn't there for that final year. It's just interesting to hear him talk about how high they've been on him, and yet they weren't going to play him if Taylor Hineke hadn't convinced them to play him in the final game against the Cowboys, which was, for all intents and purposes, a preseason game to Washington. Now, speaking of Taylor Hineke,

Taylor Hineke went on the Pat McAfee show yesterday, And he had, first of all, you'll hear him confirm that he was the one that basically, you know, told the powers that be that Sam Howell should start the game against the Cowboys. And then you'll hear him talk about Sam Howl. It's encouraging from Taylor Heinekeyeke yesterday on the Pat McAfee show. So, what was that, the last game of the year, it was earlier in the week you were supposed to start, you're going to go a half or whatever. And you said, listen, I've got the last game of the year. You said, listen, I've got the most boxing in the NFL. I'm a guy you could have a beer with.

Let Sam go and see what he can do. Is that what happened pretty much? Yeah, I won't get in specifics, but they initially made me started that week. I kind of sitting back and look at it and how everything kind of unfolded the last previous two weeks. The game really didn't mean anything for us. You know, we've seen Sam do what he can do during practice and through training. He's a dog in there, huh? The dude's a dog.

The duke and ball. So I was like, he's got a chance to see what he's got. You know, obviously, I'll draft him for a reason. So he went out there and bawled out. So, you know, I'm very excited for him. He's got a bright future ahead of him. He keeps working hard. So, you know, hopefully you can keep doing it.

He's a player, huh? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the guys in the locker room, believe in him, too. So this is what was said, like, obviously the locker room, you won over quickly. And you saying the locker room likes them, too, is a big deal because, obviously, you recognize that, too. you're a human that when you speak about football we should take you seriously but they're talking about Patrick Mahomes whenever they decided to name him the starter he had played against the Denver Broncos

I think in a game that didn't matter in his rookie years like the last year Alex Smith was having an MVP like season and they move on to Patrick Mahomes and then all word out of the locker room was like no we got a guy because of practice reps and because of that you're saying similar type feel with Sam Hal all right I don't want to put that no no but like that type of conversation like hey we think we got a guy because what we see in practice and what we've seen behind the scenes. Yeah, that and, you know, you go back to his junior year of college. He was projected to be a first or second rounder and decided to come back his senior year. And obviously he lost a lot of weapons his senior year and didn't have that great of a year.

And, you know, they thought that was, for whatever reason, he fell to the fifth round after that. So everyone knew he could play. I just don't understand how he felt to the fifth round. A ringing endorsement from Taylor Heineke on Sam Howell. Not just that, actually. him representing that the locker room would also give a ringing endorsement of Sam Howe. You could make the case that none of those people would know a good quarterback if it slapped him in the face because there hasn't been one in the building for a long time.

But look, if Taylor Heinecke didn't believe what he was saying, he would have said something like Sam's a really good young kid. He's got a big arm. He is really mobile. He's been working hard. He'll get his chance somewhere down the road. he's, you know, still got to learn. You know, he could have said something like that.

That's not what he said, you know. And so there's a belief in Sam Howell in that locker room. It's interesting, at least according to Taylor Heineke, it's interesting that, you know, that opinion seems to be in conflict with what the opinion of the head coach or maybe more than just the head coach was before the season finale. And I know you could say, you know, really what they wanted was they just wanted to win the game. You know, Ron knew that, you know, Sam would be pretty good.

good or Sam was developing and so did Scott and so did some of the others. But they wanted to give Taylor the game after they yank the Cleveland start away from him. No, no. This was an opportunity if they really, the coaching staff really, really believed in Sam Hal and was super excited to see what he could do. If they felt the same way Taylor Heineke felt about Sam Hal, then they would have been pumped to finally get him in a game.

They would have been itching for the chance to get him in a game. And that's not what the early portion of that final week was about. All right, let's get to the smell test and a prediction on the Super Bowl. Kevin looks where the John Q public is putting their cash and does the opposite. It's time for the smell test. Final smell test of 2022. It flew by this year. Good year for the smell test, 99, 83, and 3, 5 and 3 in the smell test.

post-season. 17 smell test seasons in the books. I've been doing it for 17 years on radio and radio podcasts combined. 12 winning seasons, five losing seasons, but we still have two selections left. You have two picks for Super Bowl Sunday. The first is Kansas City plus the one and a half. If you can find some plus twos out there, that's great, there aren't that many out there. So I'm going to give it out as KC plus one and a half. I've loved that. the Chiefs since Championship Sunday ended. All the talk has been about the Eagles. All of the public action is on Philadelphia.

The sharp action, kind of split, actually. But I just like the Chiefs. There's too much public action. There's too much expert, so-called expert discussion about how, you know, the Eagles are the much better team. With the exception of Patrick Mahomes, I'll take that exception. The Chiefs plus one and a half. I also like the Chiefs on the first half line plus a half point.

And the reason I do is I actually think the Chiefs are going to win this game big. And I will get into the analysis part of the conversation here in a moment. But I just think that the Chiefs are going to win this game by double digits because I think there are a lot of guys that will have the Eagles tied in to every kind of teaser imaginable. You know, they'll tease it with the total, they'll tease it with college basketball games on Sunday, tease it with the NBA games on Sunday. And I think the final score is going to blow the Philadelphia teaser bets out of the water. So from a betting perspective, I like the Chiefs plus one and a half.

I like the Chiefs plus a half on the first half line. Because again, I think the Chiefs are going to win by double digits, which means, more likely than not, they'll have the lead at halftime. If you don't know what a first half bet is or what plus a half point means, it means whatever the score is at halftime, me take. the Chiefs plus a half point. If the score is tied or the Chiefs have the lead, I win. If Philadelphia has the lead, I lose. They're laying a half point. The Eagles are. So I'm getting a half point with the Chiefs on the first half line. Chiefs plus one and a half for the game.

Chiefs first half line plus a half point. Those are the final two smell test picks of the year. Final score prediction, Chiefs 34, the Eagles 23. Now, in terms of like the analysis of the game, I think these teams are really close. Like I think the conversation about Philadelphia being dominant in the trenches is a little bit overblown. Don't get me wrong. I think Philadelphia's offensive line is great. They've got two future Hall of Famers there and Jason Kelsey and Lane Johnson. You know, when all is said and done, Philadelphia's offensive.

offensive line of these last few years is going to be looked at as one of the best offensive lines of all time. You know, top 10, territory. But I think, you know, Kansas City has shown pretty good offensive line play as well. And I think that their coaching staff with Andy Reed and Steve Spagnulu are going to, with two weeks, scheme it up pretty well. Like, they schemed it up pretty well for the AFC title game defensively. They had Cincinnati off balance early. Cincinnati, though, was capable of coming back with Burrow and with their receivers. I do think one of the keys to the game early on will be Philadelphia. Can they run the football against Kansas City? But even if they do, I don't think Kansas City's out of it because I think

the Chiefs can match Philadelphia. I think the Chiefs can score. Mahomes is going to be healthier, probably not 100%. But I don't think Hertz looked like he was 100%. And I don't, I don't think Hertz looked like he was 100% in either one of those two playoff games. I do think Kansas City will have it schemed up offensively in terms of protecting Mahomes. He'll be hopefully a little bit more mobile than he was. They'll be a little bit healthier at wide receiver than they were. I also think Kansas City can run the football against Philadelphia with Pacheco, with McKinnon.

Yeah, I just think these teams are really close. I don't see the overwhelming advantage for Philadelphia minus the quarterback situation. I think the coaching situation and the quarterback situation favors the chiefs. I love Philadelphia's defense. I love Philadelphia's offensive line. I love Jalen Hertz.

I like their running back situation. But I think even if Philadelphia moves the ball again, I think the chiefs will match them. It should be a great game. Again, my best. The betting part of my mind says Kansas City is going to win this game by double digits. My more put on my hat of not being a better and understanding it from a betting perspective and just analyzing this game as if I didn't like a side one way or the other from a betting perspective,

I would say we've got a hell of a game in store for us on Sunday. All right. Up next, Tim Legler will jump on with us. right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So I had a conversation with Tim Legler earlier today. It was long. It always is when the two of us get together and talk about the NBA and the Washington football team, the Washington commanders. He's a massive fan of the commanders.

He has a super sharp opinion of the commanders. And we spent, I don't know, 45 minutes on the commanders. I'm going to put that out tomorrow as its own podcast. So you will hear Tim tomorrow with me talking about the Washington commanders. But for today, you're going to hear us talk about the NBA, because Tim is great, obviously, on the NBA, working for ESPN. I think he is the sharpest voice at ESPN on the NBA. I'm also going to get his Super Bowl prediction coming up in this segment as well.

But I would urge you that even if you aren't a big NBA fan, a lot of the conversation is just about what the NBA has become as well. There's a lot of basketball talk. There's a lot of big picture NBA talk. But anyway, the football portion of our conversation tomorrow, the NBA and the Super Bowl pick part of our conversation right now. So, Tim, I was reading Kevin Pelton from ESPN.com last night. recapping all of the madness associated with the trade deadline. And he wrote the following. The final 24 hours before the deadline saw an incredible 16 trades completed involving 49 players,

nearly 10% of the league's total, and 25 teams. And I just was, I mean, by the way, one of those teams not making any moves at the trade deadline were the wizards. They did trade Rui Hachamura a few weeks ago. I just, I'm going to tell you how I feel and then I want to hear how you feel. I don't like it. You know me. I'm an NBA fan. I love the NBA playoffs.

And I've gotten to the point where it's too much. It's like the team you started to root for at the beginning of the year. Does it look anything like that team after the trade deadline? Everybody's changed significantly. It's like, what was the point of investing in the first? you know, part of this season pre-trade deadline. I don't like it. I don't personally think it's good for the league.

But then again, I don't know, you know, with respect to younger fans and whether or not they like it or not. But how do you feel? I'm not a person that's going to, you know, be a proponent of what the league looks like now with all of this movement. So I understand it's great for the players if that's what you want to do. And, you know, you earn the right to, you know, to be a free agent, assignment. teams in the off season. You know, this is different. A lot of what goes on now is triggered by players' dissatisfaction and restlessness.

And what they do to organizations because they're not bought in. They're not foxhole guys. They're not guys that you can count on. And the first sign of something they don't like, they want out. And these are the biggest names in the game. And they force their way to other situations. And then there's an enormous domino effect after that. because there are teams.

There are moves made at the deadline by teams that felt like they were in pretty good shape and in the mix, and then you wake up when the smoke clears from a couple of these trades and you're going, holy hell, I don't know if we have enough. Now we've got to get something. We've got to add something. And so there's this domino effect when these star players do it. And I don't think it's great for the league. I think there's a, I think it's got to be, and again, I'm not like super powerful.

passionate about any one team. I don't lose sleep over teams that win or lose. I just don't. I like teams that play a certain style, and that's about as far as I take it. I give my honest takes on these teams of these games, but I don't have skin in the game with these teams. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a fan of these teams. That's, you know, when what you just said, you get behind players, teams. You think you have this particular group of guys that you can now get behind, and NBA season is so long. You know, you can't wait to get to, like, the second half of the year, and then make your playoff push, and you're going to be amped for the playoffs.

And then you wake up in the middle of February after all this, and your team's completely different. Or, you know, in case of the Brooklyn Nets, if you're a fan of the Brooklyn Nets, you had three guys that represented, I think, the greatest collection of offensive talent at the top of any roster ever with Durant. Hardin and Kyrie Irving. There's just nobody's ever had three guys on their team at the same time that had that much firepower offensively.

Okay? And you wake up now after three and a half years of it. You won one playoff series and now you've got a bunch of role players and a ton of picks. And that's what you're going to root for the second half of the year. So I don't think it's great. It's terrible for the fans, I think for the most part, because you can't lock into who your team's going to be. I think these are incredibly tight.

windows to win and they're shrinking all the time. Now look, there are still some anomalies out there. I mean, guys that are staying put for now. Denver. Don't have re-signed in Milwaukee before the championship and stayed there because he felt obligated to get them one and he did. You know, Steph Curry's been in Golden State his his entire career. I get it hard to envision him not finishing there as a warrior. But when you start looking at beyond those couple of guys, like, I I don't know if Jason Tatum's going to be in Boston forever. I don't know if Luca's going to be in Dallas forever.

I don't know if John Moran's going to stay in Memphis. You know, maybe Yokic is one of those guys. You know, stays in Denver's whole career. That wouldn't shock me just because of his personality type. He seems very content with where he's at. But I don't know. And you never felt that way before about the league. You kind of thought if you had a guy, especially if you drafted him, like, okay, this is our guy.

And if you have success early, then you're really like, okay, He's going to be a long time. And it's just, the mindset's changed. Disatisfaction comes in very quickly. Restlessness steps in with these guys so fast that now you've got to try to keep up with what you're going to do. And as a result, it changes the way these front officers work and what they're trying to do, which is capture it now, win now. And I think that was part of the reason that Dallas got Kyrie Irving, Kevin,

because they're looking at Luca and they're like, oh, God, we've got to win now. like we're 500 teams. We went to the conference finals last year, and we lost Jalen Brunson, and now we're like a 500 team. We've got to do something, and it's more to play Kate Luca. Today, look, see, we're doing what we need to do

because I can't imagine that Kyrie Irving is the kind of guy that you would normally, like, want to invest that much in to get because of all of the stuff that comes with Kyrie Irving. And in fact, that he walked away from LeBron James, he walked away from Jason Tatum, and he walked away from Kevin Durant.

I mean, what does that say about a player? But they had to in their mind. We've got to go after them. The talent ultimately clouds their thinking about everything else, and Luca needs another guy because then maybe he starts to get dissatisfied and he's going to want to go somewhere else. And that's the way the league operates now. All right.

You hit on the next question, but I want you to elaborate a little bit more. So, you know, I don't know if all of this would have happened had Kyrie. not been traded, demanded the trade and been traded to Dallas, but it seems like it's been heading in this direction for a while anyway. But that aside, I personally think what happened in Brooklyn is disgusting. And I'm disappointed that Sye and Marks actually ended up dealing both players. I think they cave. They didn't cave to Kevin Durant last year. And Durant's a completely different person and different player. I love Kevin Durant. He would die. to play in games. He's had injuries, real injuries. The other guy not a huge fan of. I'm just so disappointed

that they caved to the players in this situation when they didn't get anything resembling either one of them back. I mean, they basically had, look, I think Kevin Durant with this, with this, you know, Cam Thomas blowing up in Dinwiddie back and some of the other players, I still think they could have finished in the top four in the East this year. So I think what happened in Brooklyn just is disgusting on so many levels your reaction to what happened in Brooklyn. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I kind of agree with pretty much everything you're saying. And here's what's crazy. I also felt that way. And this is where Kyrie, man, he's a master like at doping you because I watched him play in January and it was the best stretch as a net.

That he had. Durant was out for a lot of it, and at one point when they were playing together, and then shortly after Durant went out, they were 18 and 2 in a 20-game stretch, and I was the one that went on Van Pelt and said, this is a team now with Kyrie engaged and looks like he's content and happy, and all the trauma is put to the side for once with him. He's just playing basketball and reminding us how great he is, and they're going to get Durant back, and this is before Camp Thomas even went off,

because that's a whole other topic. To me, that has to be a dereliction of duty if you've got a guy or that's that good offensively. I looked it up. The guy scored 135 points in 150 minutes. Let me just tell everybody what we're talking about because most of my audience has no idea what we're talking about. Cam Thomas was a first round pick by Brooklyn out of LSU in 2021. He was averaging a week and a half ago like seven points a game. and then in three consecutive games after Kyrie demanded the trade and then was traded,

he went for 44 against Washington. I watched that game, 47 against the Clippers and 43 against Phoenix. Those were his first three start. Actually, the Wizards game, he came in off the bench. I mean, only played 29 minutes and got 44 points. So go ahead. A dereliction of duty from the coaching staff, clearly. Yeah, 100%.

and I looked it up. So I was like, okay, I obviously had seen flashes of this last year. He got a little bit of run throughout the season. And when he did, I was super impressed. I didn't see him a lot in college. And I was like, this guy's got a lot of junk in his game. Like he's got a shifty handle. He's got deep range.

He's got a mid-range. He's lightning quick. I'm like, okay. But then he would go have a few good games and he'd be back on the bench again. And I thought, okay, rookie, you know, whatever. They're not, they're not bought in. And this is a team that, you know, they will give. dealing with a lot of stuff, and they got these guys on top of the roster to start with a championship.

All right, whatever. And this year, it kind of forgot about Cam Thomas because he wasn't playing. And in fact, I looked it up, so I was curious. In like the 20 games prior to the offensive explosion, you just described, he played like 200 minutes total in 20 games. Yeah, 10 minutes a game. And average five or six points a game. Then he scores 135 points in 115 minutes when he gets a chance for.

play. Okay? So I'm going, there's no way you don't see this every day when this guy's working out in camp, in preseason, the flashes he's giving you the regular season. And I understand you have these other guys, right? But the fact that this guy wasn't playing, so do your point, I, this is before Camp Thomas went off, I was already thinking, I like their team. Claxton has turned into a perfect pick and dive center.

then all he does is shoot 70% from the field. They got Seth Curry. They got Joe Harris. They've got shooters. Watanabi. They got three spot-up shooters around these guys. I'm like, this team definitely top four. And would you be shocked if a team with Kevin or in and Kyrie Irving got to the final?

No, and that's what I was at. And then all of this happened. So now I'm thinking, okay, Kyrie's gone. Katie, you still have two key guys coming back. Then what he's going to give you 15 a night. And Dore and Phine Smith is one of the, best two-way role players in the league, and he's a very good corner free point shooter. So you got that.

You also have now Cam Thomas. You have another guy that can do the best replication of Kyrie Irving that you're going to get right now. Because that guy plays 28 to 30 minutes tonight. He's going to get 20. In fact, last night, he had a terrible shooting night. And somebody texted me that was trying to be right about this. Oh, see, oh, where's the Cam Thomas highlight? I said he had 20 on a bad night.

And guess what? That's what raw scores get. Yeah, he was three for 16. You know what? He had 20. He got to his number because he got to the line a bunch and he still got 20. On a bad shooting night. I'm like, KD, you still got that.

This team could still go forward. And then KD comes over this. And here's what's fascinating. Brian Windhorst made this point. I didn't even think about this. This is where they really, really screwed over the next organization. If Kevin Durant had let them know, he wanted to move, they would not have made the deal for Kyrie Irving to Dallas

because if that was the case, they would have gotten the two picks from the Lakers that they were dangling from them because then it would have been all about rebuild. And that is basically 100% accurate. So what that means is Kyrie Irving would be playing with LeBron James right now if Kevin Durant had let them know he wanted to go.

Instead, they made this deal to get back the best pieces they could to fit around Kevin Durant to still give them a chance going forward because he's got three more years on his contract. So they had no reason to cave to him. None. And in fact, if anything, you go to him and say, listen, you know, we didn't know this, Kevin, two days ago.

We got you pieces back. We would have made a different deal. You're obligated to at least finish out this season. We can revisit this in the summer, but we have a team that can contend in the Eastern Conference around you, and that's why we made this deal. the fact that he goes to them and says, not only do I want to be traded, I want to go to Phoenix. Well, then we're going to do everything we can, Kevin, to get you to Phoenix.

I know. I don't get that. It's the fear. Basically with what they had been through with Hardin First and Karee and in Katie, the last summer demanding a trade. I think it just finally wore them down, and they just were like, we have to move on from all of this. And, you know, I guess they liked what they were getting back, a lot of people really covered McHale Bridges, and I really like it, too, McCall Bridge's feeling as an offensive player in this league is probably going to be about 16 points a game. He's never going to have the handle to be a 20-plus point guy. He's not a guy that you're going to build a team around. He's a great defender, and he's a, he's turned into a very

good role player, offensive player, supplemental player, around a star or two. He's trying there, and he could definitely guard any perimeter player to leave. But he's not a guy you're building around going forward, or is Cam Johnson, and a lot of other stuff was picks. So now this is a team that who knows what they're going to be ultimately. They've got a ton of picks. They're probably going to package some of those and start this rebuild process. But you're a fan of the Nets.

With the day they signed them, you should have been guaranteed probably. I said this is a day. the most guaranteed return on any investment in the history of this lead, more so even than LeBron James and Dwayne Wade paring up and going to Miami. In terms of winning a championship, the most guaranteed thing that ever happened in this league was Kevin Durant going to Golden State. Yes, yes, definitely. In terms of guaranteed title, prohibitive favorite to win it, yes.

But the other three of them to get Durant, Kai Rhee, and Hardin, Brooklyn, they were a prohibitive favorite to win the whole thing their first year. That's my point. That's my point. That was the second greatest return on your investment guarantee the day that they brought that together. So as a fan of the organization and a staff and a front office and Sean Mark, you're expecting at least one, but probably multiple championships the day you got those guys together and you have one playoff series win to show for it. And after the smoke clears, you do not have an identifiable

star player to build around. So calling it the second most, you know, second biggest opportunity or lock to be an NBA champion with those three together, probably the three greatest offensive talents to play on one team at one time, which I think you could make the case for. You tell me what the root cause was of it not happening. Well, I think if I had, if I had, you know, we do this thing sometimes on the NBA today. I'm on a show we, and we split up called the pie blame game. So you give percentages like a pie chart, right? So if I were to do that, most of it would be split up between Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant.

And of that split, 70% of that would go to Kyrie Irman. And for a number of reasons, man. You know, and, you know, this could get off the track and the different conversations about some of the stuff that he believes in or some of the stuff that were important to him as to why he made the decisions he made not to play. For instance, you know, not get vaccinated so he could not play. some of the decisions he made around, you know, for him, he labeled his social justice causes that took him away from the team at times. Injuries played a part.

So the lack of availability and the lack of a true, bought-in, killer mindset to get it done at all costs was not there for him. And that, to me, was the single biggest factor in it, coming on Hinge. And you know who the first person to identify that was? James Hardin. And look, I'm not a Hardin, I'm not going to sit here in the spouse love for James Hardin, and his style of play and whatnot, and he's had many moments that he has not delivered under pressure in the postseason. It's the biggest reason I can't consider Philly a legit title contender because I don't buy that he's going to have one of those special nights when it's 2-2 and a best seven, and it's game five at home, and you've got to get this game. And I don't have faith. I'm not laying

money on his performance in that situation because I've seen it too many times. So that's kind of how I feel about Hardin. But the one thing about James Harden, he did show up every day to work. Yeah. And he was looking at some of the stuff around Kyrie and realized, like, this is not going to happen here because of the way that he is. So he forced his way out. So right off the bat, that was the first indicator. I'm going to be the first to go because this is not going to work here.

I can see it right now. And that was mainly built around that, what he was observing out of the Kyrie Ernie situation. And he felt like there was no accountability on the part of Nash to, like, tighten this up. And Nash was trying to get his feet wet. I think he was overwhelmed. He probably shouldn't have had that job from a personality standpoint. It was probably too big for him.

As smart as he is, and maybe he could be a great coach with a different type of group, that was a little bit too much for a guy with no coaching experience, so I do not think ultimately those three guys respected a number. enough. Like, Kyrie always looking at Steve Nash and going up at your time MVP, man, I will take you out here right now and break your ankles. Like, that's kind of way that Kyrie would look at a guy with Steve Nash. Well, it started with him, it started with him basically saying, well, it's not really a head coach. This is kind of a consensus building thing. We don't need a head coach. He said, he actually said on any given day, any one of us could be the head coach. And by the way,

also mentioned, also mentioned in that same sentence, Jacques Vaughn could be the head coach one day, and he was the assistant at the time. Right. And this is before he had coached. So, boom, you want to talk about laying some landmines for your head coach. But, again, I think his personality type wasn't suited for what you were going to need to do with these guys. And the lack of success as a coach, because that's the one thing, when LeBron went down to Miami to join up with Wade, I don't think LeBron James.

They start off 8 and 9, and I don't think LeBron really knew much about Spolster or was buying in. But you know what he had? Spulster? He had Dwayne Wade telling LeBron flat out, this is the guy. And Pat Riley was there telling him, this is the guy.

And you know what it turned out to be? He is the guy because he was the sharpest minds in the game. But LeBron had skepticism early. But they had that stability in-house to make him understand who this guy is. Nash had none of that. None of it. He didn't have anybody there to say, man, trust me, this dude can coach because he hadn't done it. And that's what they needed. So it wasn't the right bit. But I think that's still. So it started with what Hardin saw day to day, man, this is too loose. And this guy is unpredictable, Kyrie. And I want out because this is not going to end well. And I got an opportunity to get out of here. I'm going to do it. So he did it. And that started it. And then ever since then Kevin and Kyrie. very difficult, limited time together. When they did, it could be pretty special,

but too often they weren't out there together. And Kyrie, as he's prone to do, it starts to settle inside of him that he is just dissatisfied. And there's no bigger death knell in sports than a star NBA player becoming dissatisfied. You cannot win if that's the case. You can't do it.

You know, even Shaq and Kobe, and when that ended, and they couldn't stand each other by the end of that run. You know what, though? They played through that to get three titles. Now, they could have probably had six if they got along, but whatever. They still played through it and put all that stuff to the side on the court.

And then at the end, after the third one, and then they lost, it was like, blow this thing up. I can't stand in the room with this guy anymore, and they ended it. But these guys never even got close to that point. And it wasn't because Kevin and Carrey don't like him. each other. They're friends. They're very close friends by all accounts. It was the lack of accountability and reliability.

And you start, it just erodes the team, it erodes the locker room, and that's where you ended up. And then, you know, after they didn't get traded last summer, the two of them, and they try to force them to play, you got to that point. Everybody thought it was behind us by mid-January, and they were going to go and make a run this postseason. And then it sunk you with Kyrie. I just thought the funniest thing I heard this entire week was Kyrie Irving's press conference in Dallas when he said he felt incredibly disrespected by the next organization, and I just fell out of my chair.

Right. He also said he left him in a good spot in fourth place. But it was a greedy. One last thing was kind of funny. Greenie had a great line. I was on the air with Greedy. He would get up. And he said, Kyrie also said, well, they asked him about Kevin Durant going to Phoenix, because at that point it had been done.

He said, hey, I'm happy for him. just want to be happy. Blessings for his family. And, you know, he's coming out west. That's good. I'll get to see him more. And Greenie goes, see him more. You were teammates four days ago.

Yeah. What are we talking about? If you wanted to see him more, just stay teammates. Actually, funny, but it goes to show you, man. You can't. No one knows what's between Kyrie Irving Zippers at any given time. So let's see how long he's happy in Dallas. We'll see.

Well, look, I mean, he's got a track record. See, here's the thing. I mean, Kevin Durant and the adults in the situation, you know, have, I think bear a lot of responsibility. I'm with you. I mean, I'd put Kyrie Irving's impact on all of this at, you know, the highest percentage possible. But understanding that there were adults that kind of enabled him, you know, that allowed the environment to be loose. And Kevin Durant, you know, knew that he sabotaged the situation in Boston. knew that it didn't work out for him in Cleveland,

and yet picked him over Steph Curry anyway. I mean, and like you said, look, all of the others, the vaccination, the social justice, all that stuff, look, he doesn't sign the checks, he cashes them, and at the very least, you have a responsibility to show up for work. Like, it's too much to ask him to show up and give it his best, but to show up and he played and was available for 143 at a 318 games in Brooklyn. And they should have known this from what had happened in his previous two stints.

Although I've always said about Kyrie Irving, I think for my basketball life watching, Steph Curry's the greatest ball handler shooter in one body I've ever seen, and Kyrie's easily one of the top two to three ball handlers and scorers in one. body that I've ever seen. And because of that, people like Dallas and Mark Cuban, they're going to say, well, you know what, we're going to do it differently here and we're going to make it work here. Or maybe what you said, I thought it was an interesting point, is that Cuban said,

I got to try things to keep Luca happy. And even though I don't think this will work out because this guy is crazy, I've got to try things so at least I can say, I got you, Kyrie Irving. Yeah, and I do think that played into it. And it remains to be seen what that ultimately means for them this year because, you know, it's crazy, Kevin. And I don't think this is an exaggeration. I started going down the list and I wrote names on paper in the Western Conference. And I don't think at any point in the NBA.

How many? In its history, has there been a conference at a conference at a. any given time with more top-tier star talent than the Western Conference right now. I mean, just go down each team because some of these guys have a chance to be potentially all-time great players, and some already are on those lists. Some are climbing there quickly. Yokic, John Morant, Luca, Kyrie, Kauai Leonard, Paul George, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, Zion Williamson, Steph Curry,

Clay Thompson, Damian Lillard, LeBron James, Anthony Davis. There's never been a conference that had that kind of star power at one time. So ultimately, what is this going to mean for Dallas? I don't know because we haven't seen him play together yet, and I want to say, just one thing I'll say about Kai Rhee, people out there need to understand how difficult it is what he did the other night. With all the negative attention swirling around him for four days,

then he gets traded, he flies out. He doesn't even practice with the team. There's a lot of guys in a team he's never met before, and he walked out on the court and I've 24 efficiently. Like, this is how special. Against a good team on the road. Right, and a team that's been playing well, and got elite-level perimeter defenders,

and he kind of did what he wanted to do, and they win the game. So I haven't seen him with Luca yet, and I think ultimately the adjustment falls on Luca's shoulders, because they brought Kyrie Irving into B-Ky-U, and which is what you saw in that game and what you see a lot of night. So the adjustment has to come from the guy

whose team it is, whose franchise it is, and who has the ball all the damn time when he played. So that's going to be the adjustment. Luca dribbles the ball more than any player in the league. It takes longer to get into stuff than any player in the league. He's never in a hurry to get up the floor.

The one thing they definitely answered, and the numbers were dramatic. Luca on-court, off-court for that team this year when he was resting or not playing in their offensive efficiency. It's a 16-point drop-off per 100 possession. It's the biggest in the league by far for any star player. So this answers that if Luca can take 12 minutes to get some water without an eight-point lead turning into a six-point deficit,

that's going to be a nice thing for him. And so Kyrie answers that. But what about when they play together? Luca has to make adjustments in giving the ball up earlier and figure out a way to empower Kyrie without getting away from the style of play that he obviously loves, which is it's not just my show most of the time. It's all the time. If I pass the ball, I'm expecting you to shoot it because I've already done everything to explore stuff for myself,

and I've drawn three guys to me. So if I throw it to you, shoot the ball. Like, that's kind of the way they play. Either take a three or it's a lob or a pocket pass for a dunk. if nothing else, he doesn't just move it to get the ball hopping. And now you have Kyrie. That means give it up earlier, the possessions where you don't even touch it. And let's see if that's something that if they win more, maybe he is a guy that I'm all about it, man.

I'll buy into it. Because I know at the end of the game is still going to be me anyway. But at least now I've got a guy that can share the burden, and I don't have to beat teams practically by myself in a seven-game series. And maybe that's where Lucas mind is. but none of those questions are remotely answerable yet. We have to see a body of work, 10, 12, 15 games together, and I'll have a much better idea of what their playoff prospects are going to be, because this is going to be murderers' row to come out of the West

with what you're going to have to be. Yeah, so that's where I want to go with next. So my interest lies out west with my favorite player, maybe in all of sports, Kauai Leonard. and people wonder why I love Kauai Leonard when he's Mr. Load Management. Well, he is coming off, you know, an ACL. But I just, I think he's the best two-way player in the sport. And they made all of these trades as well.

They were a big part of the trade deadline stuff. They, they, I think they were starting to play their best basketball. I'm curious as to how you would handicap the West right now. And I know that you don't know what Dallas is going to look like with Kyrie and Luca yet. You don't know what Durant and Booker. You got a better idea of what that could look like, for sure, with Aiton. But how do you handicap the West right now? If I had to list them in order, I would put Phoenix 1, Denver 2, Clippers 3,

probably Dallas, Golden State. One of those two would be four. They would be my top four, I think, in the Western Conference. right now. Denver, I'm not going to discount. Like, that's a team. That's a basketball team. They've got the smartest guy in the league as the focal point in their offense.

And they got Murray, who's pretty much for the most part back. We're never going to see Bubbles, Jamal Murray again. People talk about all the time. We're also never going to see Bubbles PJ Warren again, okay? There's a lot of guys that went off in the bubble for a variety of reasons that they can't replicate that. But he's an all-in-all-star, Calais. of regard. And then Michael Porter Jr. is always the X-factor. He does get, he misses time. He gets

hurt, but you can't, you can't discount the fact that the guy is a special talent. And then Aaron Gordon's been the glue. Last year he came in, and I felt he was very deferential to everybody. He showed nothing offensively. And I was kind of surprised with him. He was putting up like 20 in Orlando. How is he now just his screen setter and defender? Like, I don't get it. I don't think it was just because he was trying to find his way. He's found his wet. And he's at, he's honestly a borderline all-star Western Conference player. So they got a great top forwarder, well-coach, and the way that they play with the cohesiveness

and being together a while, I'm going to give them to nod at two. Phoenix, I got to go with one because it wouldn't be if they started the playoffs today, because when they're one of the ones hurt too day. Right. It's a projection of what they would look like. There's a projection two months from now.

That's what I have to project. How is it going to look on April 15th? That's what I'm trying to say. And if I project out, they've got three of the best mid-range players the league has ever had in Booker, Chris Paul, and Kevin Rand. The reason that's so important, Kevin, the three-point shot is basically predicated the league now, and that's everybody plays, and I think it's the main reason Boston beats people the way they do. But you know what, that leaves you some nights.

Some nights that's not there, and it's also hard to get to the line or get points in the paint when you have to have it in the playoffs. You know what's always available? The mid-range area of the floor for great players. Chris Paul can come off that ball screen and weave and do that little spade back at 50 feet anytime he wants. Devin Booker gets stop all to dime going either direction and bang an 18-footer in one-on-one coverage in a big moment. And obviously Kevin Durant, who is the – we talk about great combinations in one player. He's the greatest combination the league's ever seen with length handle and shooting.

There's never been a guy like it, and so he can shoot over any defender at any time in those situations. on top of it, they're all good passers, and there's just no way you're going to have enough defensive personnel to deal with them once they start firing on all cylinders. And the last component for them, this is the greatest thing ever happened to Chris Paul

for the standpoint. You think of the teams he's been on, and he's broken down in the playoffs. A lot of it's because there are nights he's playing on these teams in Houston with the Clippers, and now he needs 30, like in a night, in a playoff game at the end of the season

at 36 years old, whoever he is, and that's just not, that's not, you know, that's not, like, likely to happen for a guy this age that's had this many injuries at the end of the season. He doesn't have to do that now. He can pick his spots. He can pick his spots, and there might be nice, hey, I'll go get you eight straight in the fourth quarter because I'm a clutch player and I can do that. But I don't have to get 2530 in this important game because I got 70 covered with these two guys. And I can pick my spots and as a result, he will be preserved at a much greater rate that we will never. not be talking about his failures at the end of the season because I think he's going to be a lot

He's run out of gas before for sure. Oh, yeah, definitely. And he's dragging one leg around half the time by the time they're eliminated. And I think this is going to, they're going to probably be smart how to use them in the regular season now. And then there's certainly in the playoffs. He can pick his spots and preserve himself. And I got two other guys to carry the load and I can step the table and make sure everybody

gets fed and be the real floor leader that I am. true point guard that can also take over a game. If I need to get a few pick and roll buckets, I can do that, but I don't have to do that. And that, that I think is a key, key component for why I think the sons are going to win the West. It's going to be interesting to see seeding and, you know, who you end up getting matched up with because right now, you know, Phoenix is the six seed. They're eight and a half games back behind Denver. You know, if they end up in a series with Denver out west, they'll probably be on the road for a, seventh game if it were to go that distance. Denver would have home court. The matchups are

going to be interesting. Honestly, you know I love the NBA playoffs. The Western Conference playoffs when we get to May are going to be unbelievable. Real quickly, out of the east, Boston or Milwaukee? Boston's been the best team all year, but I've been pretty resolute in saying if Milwaukee at any point gets a healthy Chris Middleton, I pick them to get to the finals. And I'm going to stick with that. I think that ultimately their interior defense with Janice and Lopez is the difference maker against Boston. But you can't deny. Boston's been the best team in the league this year.

I just think Milwaukee hasn't been whole. They just added Jay Crowder. That's a very interesting acquisition. There's a reason Jay Crowder's, for the most part, always been on good teams. He plays both under the floor, and he makes big shots. And so, you know, who knows? He's rusty. I mean, when he got that phone call, he stood up off the soap,

it dust probably flew off of him, but because he hasn't been playing all year. So let's see how that works out. There's one last point I want to make about the West, to your point, how fascinating it is. Because first of all, he said about Phoenix. Look, Katie's out for a while, and then it takes them a little time to ramp up

and kind of find their rhythm. Look, they've got the same number of losses right now as nine-seated Golden State. Only one. Yeah, right. They've only got one less loss than the 10. NC Portland. They've got to make the playoffs, is what you're saying.

They still have to qualify, or at least not be in the play-in round. Even more than that. Okay, let's say, let's say they're a play in. Let's just say, that's possible. And they get out of the play-in. Yeah. Well, look what the Western Conference first round to look like. Denver, Phoenix.

Denver, Memphis, Sacramento has the one, two, three sheet in the West, all underdogs. Right. Yeah. Because Denver could get Phoenix, Memphis could get the clippers, and Sacramento could get Dallas or something. Yeah, it's true. And that's, by the way, not even mentioning the fact the Lakers got better yesterday. The Lakers also made key acquisitions to their team.

Russell and Beasley are kind of exactly what they needed. So let's also see that. And Westbrook's gone, and that apparently got extremely toxic. So let's see. I mean, the Lakers look up right now. They've got 31 losses, right? They're four and a half games out of the 60s, but they're, what, three games or two and a half or something out of the 10. So, you know, and that's Portland in that spot.

You know, Minnesota, Portland, New Orleans is going to get Zion back with their free fall. I mean, the Lakers conceivably can get into the play. That might be another team that's involved in this round-robin tournament. What have you got Phoenix, Golden State, and the Lakers? I mean, I haven't even mentioned, yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean, let's not forget that the defending champs, if they're in the tournament, are going to be a tough out in the tournament. Of course.

No doubt. You know, because you know what? You said about Denver, you said about Denver, they're a team. Golden State, they're a team. Right. Exactly. And then Memphis, but Memphis is also, but I don't think when we start talking about these teams now that they're going to have to beat, I just don't think they have

enough. I don't think John Moran style of play and the way this is relentless of play. attacking style where, you know, it's a small guard to do that night in, night out, you know, for, you know, four rounds or three to get out of the West. I just don't think they have enough, but they're also a team. It's ironic because Milwaukee and Boston are also like teams. Right. And they didn't do a whole lot at the deadline.

Crowd was a nice addition to Boston had it, like Muscala. So a couple of additions, nothing earth-shattering. And the reason is because they feel like, hey, man, we're a team and we've had pretty good years and we're not going to overreact to all of this. If these other teams trying to catch up to where they have been all year, to why you saw Phoenix do it, Dallas do what they did, the Lakers, like these teams are, but it's just, there's never been a more fascinating conclusion to a season in any conference or any league, or the NBA in general as a league,

then we're going to have this year. Yeah. And watching how this all plays out. Yes. So what a tease for those of us, for the two people that just said, how many minutes ago, we hate the way the trade deadline works, but it created maybe the most incredible end to end to a season out west that we've seen. By the way, what? I got to tease you. I got to tease you real quick before we get off. We started this whole thing

talking about the Washington football team, the Washington commanders. I don't even say commanders. Washington commanders. And how you said you just can't, you just not, you're not emotionally invested anymore, you just can't stick with them. And then later in this conversation, you tell me you're still that in love with Kauai Leonard after everything he's played. I know. So, come on, man. Well, let me just tell you, I also love, I still love Russell Westbrook, even though I realize that he'll never win anything. But I love, oh, you still love, yeah, that's right, you loved Westbrook, too.

He was my favorite player in the league. Oh, my God. For a few years, he was my favorite player to watch. Nobody ever in the history of team sports has ever tried harder than Russell Westbrook. I'm convinced of it. Yeah, it was the best return of my investment of two and a half hours I could make because I knew exactly what that was about to look like. I haven't asked you about the Wizards, which I'm not going to do,

and I haven't asked you about LeBron. We'll do that next time. Just give me your Super Bowl pick before we go. Oh, my God, you know, since I'm such a diehard Washington fan, I can't possibly root for a pillow. And so in this case, I don't have a dog in this fight. I got to go with who my heart. is pulling for, and that would be Kansas City.

So I truly believe the Eagles are the best team in the NFL, and I've thought that in probably about week four. That's the most complete team in the NFL, so it's going to take some, I think, some magic and some spectacular quarterbacking out of Patrick Mahomes to do this. I think you'll know early. I really do, Kevin. I think if the Eagles are running the ball effectively at the first half,

they're going to win the game. And if Kansas City can control their running game, the Chiefs win the game. Yeah, I think that's a really, good point. I think sometimes I emphasize this too much about I'm going to know after watching two or three series. And sometimes that's really not true. But I've emphasized all week long that Kansas City took three scoring opportunities away from the Bengals in the first half. Spags dialed up a lot of pressure. They forced two, three and outs. They had an interception on their first four

drive. They held Cincinnati to six points. And ultimately, those drives were super important at the end of the game because Cincinnati got, you know, got it going offensively. I think if Philadelphia, even more so than Cincinnati, Tim, if Philadelphia gets behind because Spagnullo's, you know, dialed up a couple of really good defensive possessions to start the game, stopping the run, and Kansas City's got the lead, I don't think Philadelphia comes back in the same way that Cincinnati does. I think they've got to stay in kind of front-runner mode. And I know that they came back against Jacksonville. I know they came back against Indy, but this is Patrick Mahomes. So yeah, on some level, it's like Kansas City, if you see

chunk yards for, you know, Gainwell and Saunders and Hertz on read option keepers and it's, you know, six yards here, eight yards here early in the game, it's probably a bad sign if you bet on Kansas City like I have. 100%. I think you've got to make Philadelphia's offense. You have to at least get to the point where you feel you can make them fairly predictable in how they have to play to come back. I think it's very important Kansas City gets a lead in this game. And now some of that running packages that the Eagles have that just gut you

because of her's ability to tuck it and run himself. And that line is so dominant, if Kansas City can score in a couple possessions early in the game and play from the front, I think you make hurts a little bit more predictable in what he has to do, and I think that's where Kansas City gets them. But I really believe this, and I feel it's a lot of people that turn out their way. I think it's going to be an absolutely great football game. That's one thing I think we are going to get. These two teams are going to be entertaining.

I think it's going to be close, and if it is close, I'm going to have to bet on my homes. Thanks for doing this, as always. I appreciate it. Yeah, no problem, Kevin. Tim Legler, everybody. One of my favorite people to interview, to have conversations with. And again, tomorrow, you'll hear Tim on his favorite football team, the Washington commanders. Everything he thought when the season was over, everything he's thinking right now about the off season. And next year, I'll put that out tomorrow. All right, that's it for the day.