The Kevin Sheehan Show - New Ownership, Old Name?

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

Kevin opened with thoughts on whether or not new ownership should consider bringing the Redskins name back. Kevin also got to the latest Commanders' sale news, Hendon Hooker's visit to Ashburn, Chase Young, and the NBA Playoffs. Best-selling author and CEO Coach Caroline Miller was Kevin's guest discussing the psychological reasons Dan Snyder failed as an owner and what the new owner must do to bring the fan base back. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. One guest on the show today. Caroline Miller is going to be on the show with us today. Who's Caroline Miller, you ask?

Caroline Miller is a best-selling author. She is a CEO coach. She works with companies all across the world at the highest levels of these companies to create positive environments so that these companies can succeed. And why is Caroline on? Well, Caroline's a native Washingtonian, and she is a lifelong, diehard fan of the football team. And with Caroline today, we're going to learn what went wrong with Dan Snyder from an organizational standpoint, a leadership standpoint, and is the damage that he did over a near quarter century, is it fixable? That's coming up in the last two segments of the show.

This review from Jerome in Southeast, Hello, Jerome in Southeast. Mouth of the South. Loved hearing Fred Smoot on the pod. I can listen to that guy talk about anything. Also, Kevin, I appreciate all the heavy lifting you had to do with Steve Spurrier. It was interesting to hear some of his insight on his time in Washington, like when he said, quote,

when I couldn't pick the QB, I knew I was in trouble, closed quote. I think all of us would have loved to have heard him answer some of your saucier questions. But hey, Kev, the man's undefeated against Belichick. You got to give him that closed quote. Thank you, Jerome in Southeast. You can rate us and review us wherever you can rate us and review us. Do it. But especially on Apple and Spotify, Apple allows you to give us up to five stars and write a short review.

That is very helpful. It's also helpful if you follow us on Apple and Spotify. The follow button on Apples in the upper right-hand corner of their home Apple podcast page. Spotify, it's down the left-hand side. Following us is really important as well. By the way, I really enjoyed having Spurrier on the show. We had them on last Thursday, so if you haven't listened to it, it's 17 or 18 minutes. it's totally worth it just to hear the old ball coach's voice,

hear him tell stories about Osaka and other things. I did kick myself a little bit over the weekend because I thought of ways that I could have gotten to some of the questions that I really didn't have a chance to get to. I mentioned after the interview, it was obvious, very obvious, that the two worst years of his professional life were spent here and he didn't have much use for going down the path of discussing them. This is not a good memory for him.

And we know why it's not a good memory for him. Dan Snyder is the reason. It wasn't a good memory for him. And he didn't put it all on Snyder. He took, you know, a lot of the blame himself. Or, you know, he certainly wanted to mention that. But I think, you know, from telling me that, you know, he couldn't pick his quarterback the second year

to, that was Patrick Ramsey and the decision that Snyder made in that draft. The promise that he had been made that Snyder had made to bring in Bobby Bethard, he never got Bobby Bethard. Many of you thought that was news. I did not think that was news. Bobby Bethard had told me that years ago. I thought it was on the air. But he was great. It's worth the listen. We got enough out of him. But yeah, I wish that he had been more open to talking about his time here because that's of interest to our audience. You know, his coaching of the Tampa Bay Bandits or South Carolina isn't as interesting. But again, I think it was worth it. But yeah, I regretted some of the swings that I didn't take, I guess is the best way to put it.

I think I feel that way a lot after interviews. Even interviews that I think go really well, I always feel afterwards it's like, damn, I wish I had just followed up with this on that rather than moving on to my next question. I think anybody feels that way that does this a lot. But yeah, that one, I don't know, my expectations were for something even being. better, but I think what we got was great. Anyway, enough about that. This morning on the show, radio show,

which is now 10 to 1 on the Team 980, I asked the following question, does it make sense for new ownership to look into bringing Redskins back? Opened up the phones, and we could have taken calls for seven hours on this topic. Why did I do that? Well, I've been thinking a lot about, you know,

the priorities for new ownership for Josh Harris, presumably, as the new owner. And I do believe that the name and the associated branding is in the top three. You know, I think they have to look at that. You know, a few of you don't think that the new name is much of an issue or that going down the path of rebranding would be a waste of time and it's nowhere near as important as some of the other things. and many of you think it's number one. I'm probably somewhere in between. I think that, you know, winning and winning and winning is number one. But I'd actually put kind of the crossing the T's, dotting the eyes on the name thing,

right there at number two, maybe even before stadium. Because I think this is a big obstacle that new ownership is going to have to clear. And I don't know what the right answer is. I really don't. Maybe leaving it what it is, the commanders, with the new uniforms and all of the new branding, maybe that's the right way because their customer acquisition strategy is going to focus on people that weren't tied to the past. You know, reacquiring customers like me or people that are much more out versus, you know,

kind of more apathetic or more apathetic than I've ever been. maybe it's, you know, they don't feel like it's worth spending the money that people will eventually, if they build a good product, the commanders will become something that people will be okay with. And that the people that they're targeting mostly don't have a strong feeling about the name right now. That may be the answer. Or reacquiring two-thirds of the fan base that left them, that might be super important. And to that group, let's just say, you know, 70% plus of those people, that would be my guess, want commanders gone and want a rebrand, another rebrand. So I was thinking about all of that, and there's a lot around that alone.

And then I thought, I wonder if they'll even consider looking into the possibility of what it would take to bring the Redskins back. I doubt they will. I actually think it makes sense for them. in this process, if they end up going down this road of looking at a rebrand, I think they should explore it, of course. But if they decide that they are going to do that, I actually think it would be a pretty good PR move for them to say, you know, as far as the name and the branding goes, we looked into, we researched everything, including bringing the team's original name back, the Redskins, which was here for 83 years. And I think,

they could get some cred with a certain portion of the fan base if they say, look, we took seriously the task of looking into whether or not that was feasible. And they could potentially say something like the league said that the league told us they would never approve it. So we had to kind of ditch that effort. I'm not suggesting that they do it just for PR purposes. I think they actually should take a quick glance at it. I know what the result will be. I shouldn't say I know what the result will be.

I can guess what the result will be. The result will be emphatically no, that that is gone, and there's no reason with this new kind of a feel of a business that they should bring controversy into the new launch with the new ownership group. I think that horse has left the barn. I don't even know as much of a pro name guy as I am for a lot of reasons. I'm not even sure that I would recommend that they go back to Redskins

or that they spend a lot of time looking at Redskins. As much as I would love for that to be the result, I don't think it would be good business for them. I really don't. I think it would be unnecessary. That name's been away for a while. Somebody else had to do it. they're not going to get blamed for it.

They've got a new business, one that feels more like expansion market. Don't introduce it or reintroduce it with controversy associated with it. That would be my position on that. Look, most of you know my position for years and years before they lost the team name. My position has been, I'm open-minded and open-hearted to changing the name. if it really is proven beyond just some of the activists that weren't Native American, that felt very strongly about telling Native Americans how they should feel. If Native Americans in mass said it was hurtful and they wanted it changed,

I would have been the first in line to say, let's change it. This is not right. No matter what it means to us, it's hurtful to a large, large group of people. and that just was never proven. In fact, the data suggested the opposite was true, you know, that more Native Americans, many more, significantly more, didn't want the name changed and weren't offended by the name. And I, you know, I said that the mic drop for the name changers

was always its dictionary-defined pejorative, insensitive, racist. And one way to get around that, it would be to petition dictionaries for a second definition. And I mentioned this many times. I mean, the word language evolves. And when language evolves, you know, dictionaries get petitioned for new definitions of words or additional definitions of words. And the word Redskins hasn't meant anything having to do with Native Americans for 50 to 75 years. I mean, common sense I always felt like should apply here.

Language evolves. We don't use Redskins as a way to describe anything having to do with Native Americans. We use the word Redskins in this country for 50 to 75 years to describe the pro football team that plays in Washington. You know, and I always use the example. You know, somebody says to you, I ran into two Redskins last night at the bar. Really? Who were they? Was Sam Howell there? Was Terry McClure there? John Allen, Duran Payne? No one would say, so you ran into two Native Americans at the bar last night? No one would say that.

That's just common sense being applied to this. So a second non-derogatory, non-pejorative dictionary definition, Redskins noun, the team that plays pro football in Washington, D.C., redskin noun, a player that plays for the professional football team in Washington, D.C. would be something that, you know, new ownership could look at petitioning if they actually thought there was a chance to bring the name back, which I don't. And I don't even think I would advise it. But my position over the years was pretty consistent. Somebody linked me to a story during the conversation this morning on radio. It's a story written three weeks ago, March 27, 2023, and it comes from a Spokane, Washington newspaper, the Spokesman Review. The headline to the story is students at well-pinned high overwhelmingly vote to keep Redskins as mascot. Now, what you should know about well-pinned high in Spokane or near-Spokane, Washington, is that 87% of the students are Native American.

They've had, as their school mascot and as their sports teams name Redskins forever for as long as anybody's been in that town. And they've been pressured over the years, pressured a lot, primarily by non-Native Americans to change the name, you know, by surrounding districts in Spokane that aren't totally non, totally Native American. This school, well-pinned high school, like many others, not as many as there used to be, because the pressure's gotten to a lot of these places, but there are still majority Native American high schools that have Redskins as their school mascot. and as the name of their sports teams.

And well-pinned high school, once again pressured by a lot of people, most of whom are non-Native Americans, said, no, don't tell us what we should do. We know what we should be offended by and what we shouldn't be offended by. We're proud of the name Redskins. And they chanted during a basketball championship parade celebrating the school's basketball championship. they chanted Redskins power, Redskins power proudly. I think this is what has always been for me the most frustrating part of this conversation, which it isn't a conversation anymore.

But when it was a conversation, when the team still was called the Redskins here, is that those that wanted the name changed didn't really feel like it was a debatable topic. They felt like the conversation, was open shut. Just point to the dictionary. There it is. It's dictionary defined. It's insensitive. It's racist. It's, you know, what are we talking about here? And I think that for me, you know, whether it was the post poll in 2016 that was the last major poll of Native Americans that reflected nine out of 10 Native Americans didn't have any issue with the name. I just always felt, and still it's still do to this day that it's an argument, that it's a debatable topic, that it's more complicated

than the dictionary definition. And there's proof of that, you know, everywhere, whether it's the post-poll or whether it's well-pinned high school, you know, that's 87% Native American. It's, you know, personally, I've always felt like, you know, I don't know what the number is, but I know it's not one. You know, when people have said, well, isn't one person being offended enough for you, Sheehan? No, it's not. You can find a lot of people that will be offended by almost anything.

And you'll find people in topics and in conversations like this one that will be offended and will be offended because it's profitable to be offended. So to me, it was not one, and it wasn't 10%. It was where it was obvious that this is really the way a culture truly felt. And I never was convinced of that. I don't know that I ever will be, although things have changed. And maybe today, if that post-pull were done, it would be six out of ten Native Americans feel like it's not a problem. And maybe three years after that, it would be down to three.

Who knows? There's certainly been a lot of pressure put on the Native American community over the years to try to convince them that this is a terrible thing, and they should be against it. But not the people in Well-Pennett High School in Spokane, Washington. A couple of other things to get to before we get to the guest that I have scheduled for the show to there was sale news after the show yesterday. Daniel Kaplan, who came on the radio show with me, writes for the athletic, wrote that the Harris group essentially sent their agreement, which is not exclusive at this point for a period of time, to the NFL, to which he said that's unusual. Now, the reason for that may be because Snyder isn't communicating with the NFL, but they sent it to the NFL for the purpose of,

of having them look over the agreement, the parameters of the agreement, the language of the agreement, to give them a quick approval, and what the athletic reported is that the Harris group offered Snyder partial indemnification. So they wanted the league to look at that as well. Daniel Kaplan came on with me this morning and suggested that there's a lot that's been unusual about this deal. From the non-exclusive negotiating piece to them sending this to the league on their own, not Dan and the Snyder's sending it to the league. He also suggested to me that the process to come includes a significant vetting

process of not just Josh Harris, who's been vetted as a minority stakeholder in the Steelers, but that there's more to the vetting process when you're the lead owner that Mitchell Rails needs to be vetted, Magic Johnson needs to be vetted, all of the limited partners need to be vetted. This thing has to go through the NFL's finance committee. Only then will it actually be sent to the owners for a vote.

And he suggested to me this morning that we're talking about months before it's finalized. He said he thinks it won't be finalized until the beginning of training camp. So that would be August. three other things before we get to our guest.

One is Washington entertained, according to reports, three players today as part of their 30 pre-draft visits. And one of those players, Tennessee quarterback Hendon Hooker. I don't know what their interest in Hendon Hooker is. I can't imagine they're going to take Hendon Hooker at 16. If they fall in love with Hendon Hooker, I have no problem. with them taking Hendenhooker at 16. I think one of the issues here is if you like Hendenhooker and you thought because he's coming off the ACL,

that you might be able to get him on night two, well, there's too much buzz around him right now, as there always is around quarterbacks that multiple teams think can be a starter in the NFL. And the issue is if you don't take him in the first round, you probably won't get him if you really want him, because teams are going to say, I want to take them in the first round, so I get the five years, not the four.

You know, you get the fifth year option with a first round pick. So Hooker was in today. So was Anton Harrison, a tackle out of Oklahoma. And so was Miles Murphy, a defensive end out of Clemson, who's a projected, you know, back half of the first round player. I think it would be interesting to see if Washington got to 16 and the highest rated player on their board was, a pass rusher, a defensive end, a four-three defensive end, like a Lucas Van Ness from Iowa,

or if they traded back and it was Miles Murphy, who was the top player on their board, would they take them? I think they should. I think they should consider it. But with that said, I wanted to mention a thought that I had had. And I was thinking about this last night, and I went and watched highlights of Chase Young from 2020. If you want to just remind yourself how good Chase Young can be. Just Google Chase Young 2020 highlights and just watch it. It's two minutes worth of highlights. He was a game wrecker at times, especially in that San Francisco game. My God. I understand who was playing quarterback, you know, and who they were facing at quarterback and the offenses they were facing down the stretch in 2020. But man, Chase Young was a monster in that

49er game. He was really good in some of the other games as well. And what made me think about Chase Young is just all of the conversation about the fifth year option. What I wanted to say about Chase Young is this. I want Ron Rivera and Jack Del Rio and this organization to exhaust all ways of getting Chase Young to be Chase Young again before they decide to bail on him. This has nothing to do with the fifth year option. Okay, if they decide that the fifth year option not exercising it is the right business move for them. That's fine. But what I want is I want this year,

2023, I want them to figure it out. I know they have concerns on that coaching staff, and it's beyond the injury concerns. I think there are players out there that may have concerns about the commitment level of Chase Young. Whatever he needs to be, though, to become the best version of himself,

his talent is so tantalizing. and you're reminded of it when you watch that 2020 highlight reel. And I would just like to see and know. I'm not suggesting that they won't because I think, you know, in Ron Rivera and Jack Del Rio, you have veteran coaches who know what a really good player looks like. I made the case with Duran Payne that you just don't, you don't bail on one of your best three players.

He's one of your best three players. You get him signed long term. You don't play with fire on a, you know, in, free agency. You get it done. You don't let him get to free agency. Next year, you know, if he had played on the tag. You don't bail on a player that could be one of your best players either. And Chase Young, who just turned 24 years old, it's too early to say that he can't become one of their best players. So figure it out. And if you work hard enough and you get to the point where it's just not going to work because he's not giving it back to you and the way

that you know it needs to be given back to you. Okay. And that's why the option, the fifth year option, isn't part of this conversation. If they are really in the mode of we're going to support him, we are going to coach him, we are going to do our best to make sure that this guy doesn't fall through the cracks. But we're not going to commit to the fifth year right now. We're going to commit to this year doing what's, you know, whatever it needs to be done to get him back to where Chase Young was in 2020. And then if it doesn't happen, then you can bail. And if it does happen, then you can use the franchise tag or try to sign him to a long-term deal then. I just was thinking after watching that highlight reel, my God, can you imagine it would be so this organization

that he goes out this year and he's so-so or he's just okay. And then you're contemplating the franchise tag, but you don't slip it on him. And he goes to another team. And at 27 years old, he's the best pass rusher in the league. I also want to make sure that you understand what I'm saying here. And that is I'm not against cutting bait, you know, when you got to cut bait because you know for sure it's not going to work. I just want them to know for sure before they decide that. that this year is just going to be Chase Young's final year unless some miracle happens.

They got a whole year with him. You know, make sure you try to figure this thing out. He's too talented to just let him fall through the cracks. And maybe he won't allow you to get the most out of him. And if that's true, well, that's what Doc always says. He hates more than anything else. It's talent being held hostage. But, man, he's got talent.

He really does. the NBA playoffs last night after Tommy and I got into it on the podcast yesterday about the game today versus the game in 1957 and I mentioned that Draymond Green is a high IQ player which he is and you basketball people understand that

I know you do. He gets thrown out of the game last night for by the way a good reason. You can't stop on Sabonis. I don't care what Sabonis did. What he did. He got teed up for what he did. And he could have wiggled his way out of there or thrown his arms up in the air and just gotten him to get teed up in that particular moment. But once he stomped his foot down and subonious his chest, that was flagrant too. See ya. He's done a lot of that. He's a brilliant player. He's a super high IQ player. Nobody that knows basketball would argue that. But he also has let many times his emotions, you know, ruin things for him, including going back to 2016

when he probably cost Golden State the title by getting suspended for that one game. That's why LeBron has the title in Cleveland with Kyrie, because Draymond got suspended for a game. That was a big reason. You don't think they needed Draymond Green? They've always needed Draymond Green. Looking forward to the games tonight. All right. Up next, my guest who will talk about Dan Snyder and the kind of owner he was and why it led to what it led to. And how damaged is this fan base and is it fixable? We'll get to all of that with my next guest right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. Jumping on with us right now is Caroline Miller.

Caroline is a best-selling author, especially in the area of things like goal setting. Most of you who are listening don't set goals. I'm not great at setting goals either. We could do probably a whole show on goal setting and the importance of reaching your goals by probably writing them down and doing many other things. But Caroline's also a CEO coach, but she's also from the area. And she grew up in the area and has been a lifelong Redskins slash football team slash commanders fan. And Caroline and I know each other a little bit. And Caroline has a lot of, you know, real expert reasons and even suggestions moving forward

on how the organization got to where it is and what needs to happen for it to get better. And I guess I would start with because I know that a lot of this, the root of all of the last quarter century with the demise of this football franchise and its associated fan base is the owner. Dan Snyder. And I'll just start with a general question, which is why was Dan Snyder from someone like your perspective so unsuccessful as a sports owner? Yeah, Kevin, it's great to talk to you because you and I grew up with the exact same passion for the team. So I went into it with high hopes, 20, almost 25 years ago thinking, I'm my great, wonderful team that I drove to RFK to watch as many Sundays as I could,

because we had season tickets. I was hopeful. that it would continue, the excellence would continue, but the signs were there so early when he started firing people, he said he wouldn't fire. That was just one of the first signs, is that he began to treat employees like chattel. And so I think it just continued from there. So the signs were he was paying for people who weren't A players. That's one thing. He overpaid. He didn't tell the truth. He took customers for fools. I mean, just think of the most recent ones where they were selling these overpriced mugs, the state of Washington on them with the W or these ridiculous t-shirts. Like, we are the team in overcharging or, you know, selling the peanuts from the expired airline

independent air. I mean, there were so many signs that he was disrespectful to the customers. He had these acts of cruelty that kept leaking out into the post and elsewhere. And I know that when you witness acts of cruelty, because there's great research on this in positive psychology, witnessing acts of kindness. cause an organization to have more acts of kindness. And then you enter that upward spiral of well-being, where the more positive you are, the more positive people are,

they're more engaged, they do better work, they're more productive, they're happier, on and on and on. There were witnessing acts of cruelty. And, you know, we could just talk about the cheerleaders in the ways in which they were treated and maligned and kind of made to dress topless. But as these leaked out, you began to see the disrespect, the disengagement, the cruelty, the turning over of coaches,

firing them when they're on a golf course, not giving anybody the benefit of the time to even be successful and then, you know, interfering in the locker room. I could go on and on and on, but none of these are signs of elite CEOs and only 20% of CEOs are elite. He had every sign of disastrous CEOs. And as a result, you and I in the entire fan base, not just in Washington, they're all over the country. We all just had our hearts broken repeatedly. And so, I was excited not only that he's selling and getting the heck out of town, I hope, but that this is an opportunity for a fresh start. Turnaround CEOs come into these situations and they know what to do

if they've studied the science of engagement and positivity. All right. Well, before we get to the turnaround CEO or the turnaround owner, which we're all hoping for, you talked about a lot of the signs early on. Where does that come from with somebody who is a CEO? and maybe the question even before that is, was he actually, had he actually ever been a CEO or a manager of large groups of people? I know that he was an entrepreneur and a successful entrepreneur, and he could clearly sell as a salesman. But where did all of this come from, do you think, like, kind of personally for him?

I have to wonder, based on the little. I mean, I think he's kind of, you know, shamed and sued so many people that the truth about his behavior is back on the rest of it. A lot of it has not hit the light of day, and it's going to now. But as I understand it, he got money from his father. I think that's correct. Is that right? To actually start maybe one of those first businesses, but he hustled through, you know, some businesses as a young person. Yeah.

Well, he did, but I don't think he ever had the magnitude of success of somebody who has a humility to learn. and a growth mindset to learn from their mistakes and actually become better, kinder, you know, at what you do. I think there is this distinct level of arrogance from some of it. It could because he's so short. Some of it could because he probably just look at the redskins or the commanders, whatever we're calling them these days. The ways in which he cut corners and cheated and, you know, the season ticket holders that he charged

and wouldn't let him out of their contracts, I mean, I think if we go back and his business is unpacked. What we're going to find is a certain amount of arrogance covering up for malfeasance. So he probably hustled, cheated, cut corners, just like he did with us and got to the top. And at a certain point, you're running from the light. You're running from, and he's been hiding for a couple of years now, you're running from being discovered. And I think all of that hides a certain amount of lack of confidence. But it's the cruelty edge that really stands out to me, the absolute cruelty. So who knows how complicated and weird his childhood of not having money was, because I understand

he grew up in an apartment. But whatever it was, it just blossomed in a way that hurts so many people, not just locally and in the organization, but nationally and internationally. The CEOs who come work with me, a lot of them have heard of Dan Snyder. A lot of them are doing whatever they can to never be tagged. Talk about being tagged as an owner. tagged as a franchise. He's just a complete loser, an exemplar of, you know, just no excellent. But I've been talking to my son Haywood all morning about this, who listens to you every day,

by the way. And he's been, he worked with Mike Richmond, for example, on one of his books. And we've been talking about example after example of what Snyder did that indicated this team was going to go down the tubes one way or another. But there are ways to fix it. We can talk about that. Yeah, I want to get to that. but I am interested because like over the years, and it's not been because I'm studied in this area at all. It's been basically, you know, based on sort of personal observation through many years of living and being, by the way, in sort of corporate environments before I got into broadcasting. And I've said many times on this show that the worst combination in a person or in a business is arrogance and not being super bright.

because you'll never, ever understand what you've done wrong, and even if you do, it's somebody else's fault. And I think over the 24 years, I don't think that he was ever able to identify what was wrong, and if he did, it certainly couldn't have been his fault. It always had to be somebody else's and somebody else paid for it. Is that part of kind of the personality profile that led to all of these years of misery? Yeah, I mean, think about rulers in history who were seen as exemplars of cruelty or, you know, poor leaders.

But I think that's exactly what it was. He didn't have this humility. When you look at great leaders, what you see is a curiosity about wanting to do better and to be better. That great book about Lincoln's Cabinet, I'm blanking on door to and Google a book. But, you know, I mean, someone who was unafraid of not only not being the smartest man in the room, but being willing to learn from other people. He always seemed to have something on other people, wouldn't listen, would cut you, you know, fire you.

The number of people he fired, I've got a list here. It's just so unbelievable. But, yeah, he never took responsibility, never changed, only doubled down. I call it stupid grit. Got worse. It was someone who didn't take responsibility or any accountability for what was happening. He just kept moving the deck chairs on the Titanic thinking, you know, don't look here, look there. And then another kiss of death that you always see with bad leaders is the proliferation of NDAs and secrecy.

You know, what are they hiding? So whenever you see a lot of that and you see people being sued to stay quiet, it's never a situation where there's something good going on. So when that started to come out, I think we all knew it was worse than expected. So there's secrecy, there's arrogance, there's cruelty, there's moving around. But yeah, the blaming. and then think of all the quarterbacks whose lives and bodies he ruined simply out of, you know, I think just being a star effort. You know what I'm talking about.

Yeah. I mean, the other thing that I think, and I want you to weigh in on, is I do think that he is naturally an introvert, and I don't think he's been a very good communicator at any point in his life, although I guess his sales ability would belie that to a certain degree. because he clearly in some of those businesses had to be a good salesman, you know, raising capital and then, you know, actually gaining customers. But how many great kind of CEOs of organizations are extroverted? Is it a high percentage?

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think you have to be an extrovert to be a great leader because what you need to have is the confidence of the people coming behind you, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. From what I know, that's not necessarily one of the deciding factors. What matters is that in the relationships in which you are working, so board members, I mean, it's a big deal to be able to deal with your board, your employees, they have to feel like you care about them,

and you don't have to be an extrovert to ask questions, to be curious, to want to know who they are as people. And when you have that, study after study finds that if you have real genuine interest in curiosity, in the people around you, the people who work for you, will they stay late, will they come in during the pandemic if they're not getting paid their whole salary? It's only if you have a really positive relationship with them,

and that's what causes people to take the hill before they're being told to take the hill. I never have seen examples of people who are willing to do that for Snyder that seem to be just nothing but fear. So introvert, extrovert, that doesn't really matter. I think what matters is does the people make the men and women around him better. And there's some research out of the University of Michigan.

A guy named Kim Cameron wrote a great book on positive leadership. He found that in great organizations, what you can do is map out what's called positive energy hubs. And these hubs are what are the indicators of whether or not that organization is going to be successful. And what is it? These hubs are where people feel so motivated and energized, and they feel like they can do anything. They can tackle big, big challenges, and they're going to survive and make it one way or

another. They'll take the hill, essentially. What they found is your proximity to a positive energizer is your indicator. It's the predictor of whether or not you'll succeed. By all accounts, Stan Snyder was not a positive energizer, and he didn't breed them or reward them or incentivize them. You never hear stories about people able to do that. And so I think, as a result, it entered into what we call that downward spiral of well-being because when you're below three-to-one, and by the way, Kevin, it's not just comments, that Losada line is called the three-to-one is actually not just comments, but it's a look. It's rolling your eyes. It's signs of contempt. It's patting someone on the back as a positive. A smile is a positive. It's not always verbal.

I know and you know, because we and I've talked about it, and I've heard you talk about this. We all know people who've worked in and around Dan Snyder. He told them to avert their eyes. I know someone who's hanging wallpaper in his house, and they were told they could only use a certain bathroom and a certain place. It was really unpleasant. I mean, he treated everybody like they were out to get him. So as a result, I think there was no culture of positive energizers

that actually caused the players or the employees to think that they would be rewarded for good behavior. And look at the price we paid. Yeah, it's like the old John McKay way of presenting things. It's like he treated his customers poorly but made up for it by treating his employees even worse. Which is the way like John McKay would say when he was the coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, when they started off their organization's existence with like 21 straight losses, he said, look, we had 17 penalties and five fumbles, but we made up for. by dropping six passes.

It was always using humor to kind of diffuse how bad things were. And Snyder, you know, what about, and I've made fun of him over the years, and some people have really pushed back on me and said that it's been too much. But to me, somebody who forces people who are older than him or his age to refer to him as Mr. Snyder. What is the, is that a red flag? Oh, God, yes. I mean, it's just a sign of the inability to be a regular person that you always think you're one cut above. Again, I'm just going to go back to what we talk about with humility and arrogance.

Signs of humility are you're trying to fit in. You're like a preschooler trying to read the rules on the playground before you join in. Instead, he'd come in and start dictating things quickly, and he always needs to be seen as the king, you know, the cock of the walk, which is why I like that Captain Dan stuff that, You know, you hear about on your show all the time. He can't take a joke. And so the need to always be seen as serious, above people, richer than, better than, my boat is bigger than yours, are just all signs of incredible insecurity and a need to be fulfilled by external signs of success. And this is why the Harvard Men's Study of 1930, which I think a lot of people have learned

about through TED talks and books and all really predict what's going to happen to this man. His finale, the way his life is going to end is going to be how all these people who put money over and power over relationships is going to end. It's going to be lonely. He's not going to be happy. He's going to be surrounded by all his toys and no people who give a damn about him. And that's what he's done is he's put way above the things that matter in light, love, friendship, reciprocal kind of giving, kindness.

And he's put all of those things beneath the toys. And this is where you see people making the biggest mistakes of their lives thinking it's going to bring them happiness. And at the end of people's lives, we know from the Cornell longevity study, we know from studies of people in hospice care, that the number one regret when people are dying is that they didn't value the relationships that mattered, and they lived someone else's life, trying to be something that what didn't bring them satisfaction. And he's made all of those mistakes in spades. And if he was, as

smart as he thinks he is, he would have heard any of the reports on this and tried to do better. But I'll tell you what, the minute you lose the moms of players, the minute you lose women over this topless video, et cetera, the minute you discussed all of your, all of your followers, or listeners or supporters of the fan base, you have nothing left. I mean, I think we all hold him with more contempt than he holds any of us with. When you're in that position, you're on the losing end of life, and he's going to die alone and lonely with a lot of toys. Oh, boy.

And you've got to at this point feel sorry for him. Yeah. All right. So let's get to the damage that's been done and really talking about us. And that's what we'll talk about next, and we'll do that right after these words. from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by MyBooky. Go to mybooky.ag or MyBooky.com.

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done to the fan base. My question to you is, is it fixable after all of these years being worn down by the performance of the franchise, by the embarrassment caused by this franchise? Is it fixable? It's fixable as long as the new ownership, the new structure that comes in and does what Hubert Jolie did at Best Buy when he came in. I mean, Best Buy was on the brink of going bankrupt. He came in and did a listening tour. He talked to the employees. He looked at data. Data is king in some organizations. They have to look at the right data.

But try to figure out what is it that the fans want and need. And what we want is a team that doesn't treat us as fools. And in order to do that, they're going to have to restore confidence that whatever values they put on the wall are the values that they walk and talk by at the very top, starting, and we can't have people doing one thing saying they're going to do. I mean, look, I've got a long list of things that my son Haywood sent me of what he said he was going to do. doing what he actually did. There needs to be some consistency in stated values and behavior. They have to have a listening tour.

They have to figure out what the fans want. They have to be consistent in terms of how they show up and what they say. They're going to have to be earnest in their appeal for our support. They can't sell us 9-11 caps to make money on the fifth anniversary of 9-11 and make money off it. There has to be a complete reorientation of what they stand for. I can't even find online what a mission statement or a set of values are for the this organization, which tells me they don't have any, but they're going to have to start at the top with the right hiring. They're going to have to have a locker room that has A players

and A roles. I mean, that's what you see in great organizations. At the very top, they hire A players, not over-the-hill people that you overpay for. A-players and A-plowers. You're going to have to have an enormous amount of people who are working very hard to regain our trust by saying the right things, doing the right things, hiring the right people, rewarding the right behavior. You know, that's just a start. But we have to erase, and I'm with you on this, I've heard enough of your podcast, we have to erase the names that's associated with Snyder. We've got to get ourselves out of FedEx field. People are willing to negotiate with the team now as long as he's gone. So I think we need what's called the fresh start effect, and there's a lot of research that

When you have these pivotal moments that separate the past from the future, you have about 18 months to do bold moves, to change things, to have a new way of approaching the fans, a new way of advertising. But you've got to move fast and decisively with the right cast of characters, and it has to be cascading from the top to the bottom of the organization with consistency and care. You know, a lot of teams are bringing in people like me to coach them on positive psychology because happiness precedes success and they're going to have to have an environment of kindness, not cruelty, positivity, positivity, no more Albert Haynesworth who are toxic and divisive in a locker room.

It has to be put together piece by piece in a transparent way. And that's what I think is going to start to make the difference because we're willing to forgive. I'm willing to forgive, aren't you? I'm willing for a new fresh start. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how I feel on that. I am, I think there's a, like I think a Best Buy might be a little bit different than a professional sports team. Not in that you don't build in the ways that you talked about building and not that the first 18 months aren't significant. I guess the apples to apples would be the products got to be good.

at Best Buy, you know, ultimately, or it doesn't matter how great your people and how happy they are. The product has to be really good. And in football, you've got to win. The product's got to be a winner eventually. And because, you know, you can be a lovable loser like the Chicago Cubs were forever, you know, and you don't lose fans and you have a really good business. But ultimately, you know, the real rubber meets the road with winning or losing. In Washington, was not a lovable loser, but I was going to ask you about just about the name. You know, there's some complicating factors. Snyder was a big, was the root cause of everything. And for years, you know, I think all that had to happen was Dan had to leave and people that were

apathetic would become, you know, passionate again. But we saw the loss of an 83-year-old brand that people held very near and dear to their hearts. And I know people who swear, they're never coming back where it used to be just about Snyder. Now it's the fact that the team doesn't even feel like their team anymore. And I can identify with that to a certain degree. I think the commanders and the new uniforms, it feels more like an expansion team than it does the team that I rooted for. How does new ownership deal with that? Well, I think, you know, it's such a good question. I've thought about this for years because like so many other people, maybe you too,

I tried to like the Ravens, you know, they're close. I really tried to become a fan of the Ravens. And I couldn't do it because every Sunday I'd see the Burgundy and Gold uniform. So I think the colors have an enormous amount to do with the emotional stir that many people feel. I do think that we have to have a different name. If I read correctly, we have five years. we're stuck with the name of the commander. I don't know if that's true necessarily.

I think the league will be... I think the league's open to new ownership in the shit show of the last few years, you know, putting, perhaps, you know, loosening up the restrictions on some of that stuff. Right? In part because, Caroline, there's no true brand equity in commanders. It's a year old. They're not acquiring the name. None.

Yeah. None. Well, I mean, but NASA. I mean, all kinds of organizations that have had disasters have rebuilt them. themselves by bringing in new paper, announcing a new way of going about putting a man on the moon. And I think we have to start by acknowledging mistakes, talking about the future, how we're going to get there. I think the colors matter. I think we have to have a new stadium. A lot of companies move when they're in the process of a fresh start effect. But I don't think we can expect it to be

easy or miraculous. I think there has to be some real transparency and acknowledgement that the damage is so significant, that there's going to have to be a significant shift that's going to be different and new. It's going to feel awkward. But you know what? Change is the only constant. The head of NASA, Ellen Ochoa said, if we're not changing, we're standing still. So we've got to assume that as difficult as change is, as hard as it is for us to ever

recapture how we felt as children, every time you talk about how you felt as a kid, feeling like you're with an elite organization, how great it felt. we have to acknowledge that a different kind of elite team can be built. I think we can, and there's great research showing what happens when people feel connected to an organization that is excellent. It makes people want to be part of it. I think we have to define what that excellence looks like, assume it's going to be bumpy for us to reconnect, but I think we can all learn to love a different team. It's just going to have to recapture some of the energy. We can't have, you know, the chief and, you know, the Hail to the Redskins song, but maybe we can have the tune coming back.

I would love to just hear that song with different words. I mean, that could get me. They actually have that. They did that this year. They essentially have the Hail to the Redskins melody with Hail to the Commanders in different words, but it didn't sound like it to me. But, yeah. What about contest, Kevin?

I think we need real contests where youth get involved in coming. up with slogans. I mean, we have to feel like we are part owners of the team again, just like they do in Green Bay, where they actually do own a piece of the team. But I think there are clever, creative marketing ways to bring us back in. And it's a new generation of marketers in the ways we get to people. We can use artificial intelligence to do it. But trust me, companies face these disasters all the time, and they come up with creative ways to get us back. It's just never going to be same and as long as we are open to that we can grow right along with them thanks for doing this i really appreciate it caroline's website is caroline miller dot com uh if you want an excellent

speaker an excellent author um go to her website and you can find out everything you need to know about caroline uh great job appreciate it thanks kevin all right that is it for the show today back tomorrow