The Kevin Sheehan Show - Norv Coming Back?

Episode Date: January 9, 2020

Kevin and Thom discuss the John Beilein controversy as well as what's going on with the hiring of minority coaches in the NFL. They also talk about the Redskins hiring Scott Turner and what that means about a possible return of Norv Turner. Plus some more around Ron Rivera, Jack Del Rio and more. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yep, I'm here. Aaron's here.

Tommy's calling in from Florida. I apologize for yesterday. I forgot that I had this commitment for to sit on a panel for a sales thing for the company. And it turned out to be a great day. We had a great time and accomplished a lot. But I really was sort of reminded of it. late on Tuesday night and didn't mention to you guys on Tuesday that we weren't going to do a podcast on Wednesday. My fault. But we're here today and ready to get after it. There's a lot

of Redskins news. They made it official that Scott Turner is the offensive coordinator. Scott Turner also said something, which we'll get to a little bit later on in the show about his dad, Norv, and potentially Norv's involvement in the organization, the Redskins organization. Real quickly, the Wizards, after beating all of these good teams, got absolutely routed by a not-so-good team in Orlando last night. And the caps lost to Philadelphia 3 to 2. And the caps, you know, Tommy, they're the best team in hockey. They've got 65 points on the season. They've been incredible all year long.

But I did point this out to Coke in the other day on radio that if they had lost that San Jose game, which they should have, where they were up two goals, down two goals with 47 seconds to go, they'd be in. in the midst of sort of a mini slide right now, because they had lost three of four or three of five going into that San Jose game. Then they crushed Ottawa the other night, and then they lost to the Flyers last night. They've lost some games here recently, but what does it matter, really? Because the postseason's a whole new world and a different season altogether. Do you have any thoughts on either the Wizards or the Caps from Florida? A mini slide in January. I can't even believe you mentioned it. Well, they had won three in a row coming in, so it's really not a

mini-slide. It could have been a mini-slide. Had they not won that game in incredible fashion against San Jose? Look, I have my issues with the Capitol, but they don't get tested or answered until the Stanley Cup playoffs come around. You know, I mean, anybody can coach the Capitol to regular season excellence. We've seen that before for many coaches. We haven't seen Todd Reardon's Stanley Cup proudness yet as a head coach. All right, enough on the Wizards and the Caps. I want to get to this John Beeline story,

and then we'll get to some Redskins stuff. John Beeline has been one of my favorite coaches for a long time in college basketball, Tommy. He was successful, and, I mean, he's been successful everywhere he's been. I mean, if you go back to the 90s, you know, when he coached Richmond, He got that team into the tournament and won a game. West Virginia, he got West Virginia to the elite eight and to a sweet 16. And then he's been coaching Michigan until he left Michigan last year for the NBA,

coached Michigan to really elite status. They were the runner-ups to Villanova two years ago in 2017, 2018, consistent elite eights, you know, runner-ups. Actually, they were the runner-up also to Louisville, right? they lost to Louisville in 2013. So he got to the national championship game twice with Michigan. And I just always thought he was an excellent basketball coach. And if you listen to anybody talk about B-Line's teams, wherever he was, excellent coach.

So he makes the move at 66 years old to go to the NBA and to take on the Cleveland Cavaliers position with no LeBron James, no superstars there. And it's been a tough road for him so far. He's not, according to reports, there was a story about a month ago that some of the younger players really not feeling it with B-line. And really, it's been a rough season. They're 10 and 27. But then came yesterday. And this report that a lot of people are talking about today, and I spent some time on the radio show this morning, remember 7 to 10 a.m., the team 980 is the radio show, and then we do the podcast afterwards. But this story where during a film session yesterday,

he said to his team, I'm so glad that we're not playing, quote, like a bunch of thugs, quote, close quote, anymore. Players, according to the report, Adrian Wojornowdhounsky has a really in-depth report, said that the players were shocked when they heard him use that term, that the players left the room stunned and were disturbed as they left the meeting. GM, Kobe Altman, was alerted to the issue after the meeting and reached out to Beeline for clarification on it. And Beeline said that, quote, I didn't realize that I had said the word thugs. My staff told me later that I did, so I must have said it. I meant to say slugs, as in

slow moving. We weren't playing hard before and now we're playing harder. I meant it as a compliment. That's what I was trying to say. I've already talked to eight of my players tonight, and they are all telling me that they understand, closed quote. The reason, and this is for some of you, not all of you, the reason that the players were disturbed and left the meeting room upset is that the term thug, especially for African American men, carries with it some racial connotations in 2020. I want to go through what our reaction to that last part is, the word thug and what it means and in context what it means. But first of all, do you believe him that he was, that he intended to say slugs instead of thugs?

So, in other words, this is like a Dan Snyder Thanksgiving situation. Well, is he stupid? Is he stupid because he misspoke? No, no, no, no. What I'm saying is, I mean, this just misspoke thing must be contagious. I mean, you know, peace. I mean, you know, it's funny because I don't remember miss speaking like this ever in any situation where I said something so drastically different than what I meant, you know. But apparently, it's never happened with you. It's become an epidemic.

Yeah, it's, you know. It is. All right. So, do you believe them? I'm sorry. Do you believe him? I don't believe him. I don't believe.

I don't either. I don't either. I don't either. So how should he have handled it? Well, I don't have an answer for that. Once that genie is out, it's hard to put it back in the bomb. Oh, is it a genie? I think it is.

Really? I think it is. So, I mean, I just think that that's always going to be, I mean, I think any parents of African-American kids are always going to remember that. Well, he's not recruiting anymore. What am I saying? He's in the NBA. I just think any age.

is going to remind a player of that. I think that that's not going away, Kevin. Is the word thug racially insensitive? I think it is. I believe it is. It's not a word I would use. It's a word that I've heard enough pushback on, you know, that I would certainly recognize that as being racially insensitive.

And not a word you need to use. I mean, there's lots of words out there, Kevin. There's a whole book of words. You don't have to use the ones that offend people. Is the word posse, is the word posse racially insensitive? I don't know. Okay. I don't know if it is.

So I would use the word entourage. It's friendlier. It is friendlier. Is Goon friendlier than Thug? I think Goon cuts across racial lines. Okay. You know, but Thug, I think. speak specifically to what's an African-American issue, and I certainly understand that.

You know, I mean, that goes back to the Trayvon Martin in Florida. I think that came up constantly in the defense of what that lunatic who shot him. George, whatever his name is. So yeah, I think that's a word that needs to be cut out of your vocabulary. Does it matter in a sports context that the number one thug of all time, according to most websites in the NBA, is Bill Lambere? I don't know. I mean, I just wouldn't use the word.

It's not a word that, I mean, again, it's not a word that I mean. In context, though, how many, if you were to, if you were to describe a player as, you know, God, I mean, he really play, he is a thug on the floor. He's intimidating. He's an enforcer. He's a physical player. He's cheap. He's dirty.

In a sports context, do you automatically think of that player is black? I can't answer that. I don't know. If I, okay. You just mentioned all the other words. You just mentioned all the other words that I would probably use to describe Bill the near. Have you ever used in the past the word thugged to describe a way a player plays?

You know, I don't think I have. Really? I don't think I ever have. I definitely have. There's no doubt I have. Let me just be really clear here. If somebody said to me, hey, number 23 for the pistons, this is hypothetical. Man, what a thug.

My first reaction, I'm being completely honest here. If somebody were to immediately say, are you thinking this player is a black or a white player? I think I would say probably black. What's funny is somebody as a caller brought up the word goon this morning, and they said, you know, goon, thug, you know, goon's a better way to put it. And I said, you know what, if somebody described number 23 on the Pistons as a goon, I'd automatically think white.

And I think goons used as a term to describe an enforcer in hockey, you know? And I just, you know, most players in hockey are white. Most players in the NBA are black. I totally understand, you know, language evolves, as we both know. It's a conversation we've had a lot about the Redskins team name. You know, it's in the early part of the 20th century, maybe the late 19th century, the word Redskin meant something. Today it means the professional football team that plays in Washington.

That's why I've always thought there should be to sort of eliminate the debate about this. Sometimes it's not much of a debate, but to eliminate the conversation, there should be a second non-pejorative definition in these dictionaries that says Redskins noun professional football team that plays in Washington. Because that's what the words come to mean. That's how that that's what that word means and has meant for 50 plus years in our society with with our language. Thug to me, I understand in 2020 and maybe you know over the last 10, 15, 20 years, especially in some of these very racially intense situations. And I did I did some, I did a little bit of research on this. Not a lot, but I did some reading as to what the word thug means to a lot of

different people and why. And a lot of this situations recently with, you know, violence against young African-American men that was not warranted. You know, you had, you had activity that followed, that was, you know, borderline, you know, riot-like and elected officials in Baltimore with the Freddie Gray situation. Black elected officials. referred to the rioting as the thugs are out on the street. There's thuggish behavior going on on the street. And so it's, you know, and I know, and it was reading about reactions from various people about how, you know, certain housing situations where, you know, that are dangerous and have been taken over and drug infested, the word thug is used there a lot to describe situations, and there are many more.

So I'm not being naive as to what thug means in a larger sense. I just, in a sports sense, you know, Bill Lambere is the number one thug of all time. Christian Leitner's there in the top five. When you look up dirtiest or the thug NBA players now, you get Zaza Petulia at the top of the list. It's not a black player, it's a white player or a foreign player in that particular situation, but not African American. And I just wonder if it's racially insensitive, I'm not going to use it if it is to a large group of people. Because you're right, there are other words you can use. But it's surprising to me that many people in a sports context think of it as racially insensitive.

It does. Kevin, I think it's changed. I really do think, I mean, I don't know how much you. I don't know if this came up in your research. But I really think it really changed in the George Zimmerman-Trey-Von-Martin situation. With the young black male in the hooded sweatshirt and what that represented and the word thug that was connected with that. I think that's really where things change for a lot of African-Americans in terms of terms of turrets. So I think it's changed a lot in the past 15 years, long after Bill Lambeer has ever lived.

left the basketball court. So I just think it's just changed dramatically over that time. It's just funny because I think about, you know, some of the conversations on our radio station over the years, whether it was Coach Thompson or Doc or whatever, when, you know, they would say every once in a while, we need more thugs on this team. I know.

We need more nastiness. You know, we need guys with records, you know, and yet it's, I... There's a difference there. There's a difference there. Dick Gregory once wrote a book that basically the title of it was the N-word. You know, I'm not going to use the word, but that was the title. And he was doing an interview once, and the interview asked him, so you wouldn't be offended if I use the N-word, you wouldn't be hurt if I use the N-word on you?

And Dick Gregory said, if you use the N-word on me, you'll be hurt. So, no words, there's certain, I mean. Well, you're not comparing the N-word to thug. No, but what I'm pointing out is, I mean, you know, if there's certain, if African-Americans use it, that's a different, I don't, I don't like to use the word ownership of a word, because nobody owns the word thug. And I don't like that whole argument for defending offensive language. I mean, it's offensive no matter who use it. But it's different if an African-American refers to a player as a thug as opposed to a 66-year-old white coach.

Yeah, I mean, I think personally, in B-Line's case, if he said the word and he knew he said the word, the wrong thing to do was lie about what he said, that he intended to say something else if that's not true. As a fan of sports and a big fan of college basketball, I don't, you know, John Beeline has never sort of come off as a slippery, dishonest person. That doesn't mean that he isn't. Right. And maybe the- We don't know what he's like.

Exactly. We have no idea. But maybe in this situation, he just felt the pressure. I think what would have been completely acceptable to almost everybody is if he said, I did say that. It never occurred to me that it was racially insensitive, and I apologize for it. Because I don't think the word thug. I think most people would say racially insensitive?

No. Would some people, like I just said earlier, recognize it as racial? Like, would my first reaction to the word thug be African American? Like, would the word goon be probably more white in the description? but you can be racially observant and not be racist. You know, you and I have had this conversation before many times. I can't stand people who say, I don't see color. I don't recognize the difference between black and white people.

There's a difference between racial identity and racism. Right. Exactly. I understand that. This is why I understand why African-American football fans would root for black quarterbacks. Right. I mean, because, you know, that that's racial identity. That's who they recognize.

I get that. That's a difference. But I think his audience, the only audience that matter to John B-line in this case were young basketball players. And I think among that group, this is going to be a racially sensitive word. Yeah, I would bet that there are plenty of NBA players and plenty of black people in general that would argue that Thug is not a racially-enstantive. sensitive word. This is not like something that isn't debatable, like the N word. The N word's not debatable. Okay, this would be more in people would have different perspectives. I would never think until yesterday, and I think there was another example of this. I think it was actually

posse was the word that people, and that's why I asked you about that word, because I think there was something with LeBron and his posse and people, somebody made the accusation or brought it to everybody's attention that that was a racially insensitive way to describe the people hanging around LeBron. And it would have never in that moment occurred to me. You know, I've used that word many times to describe me and my friends, our posse. I mean, it's not anymore, but in years past, I've grown beyond that term. But if I on the podcast yesterday had said, you know, we've gotten into conversations about

NBA players. And, you know, like you and I often do, going back and thinking about, you know, some of the days of old, if Lambere's name came up, I would immediately say that dude was such a thug. He was the all-time NBA thug, which he was. Rick Mahorn and Jeff Ruland, who were two of my favorite players for some of those bullet teams that weren't that great. They were decent. We're both two huge thugs in the way they played.

They were intimidating. they were enforcers, they were badass defensive guys, and they were rough and tumble. And that's how I would view it in a sports context anyway. Probably in any context. In fact, I mean, Italian hit men in the mafia were always referred to as thugs. Really? I think so, yeah. I don't recall that.

I don't recall anybody in the circles that I covered or ran with or wrote about in organizing. crime using thugs other than white Irish prosecutors. Okay. Then maybe I just had the culture wrong. But certainly, you know, the enforcer that came by to pick up the money after, you know, from the loan shark, that guy was considered whichever, whichever nationality or religion he was to be a thug, white or black or purple. It didn't matter.

Anyway, whatever. Actually, a bigger issue for, I think, in terms of a racial conversation is just the fact that all of these hires here are white hires now in the NFL. I mean, the Cleveland job has not been filled out. And, you know, there's an outcry about, you know, the Rooney Rule and the token interviews of various people and retreads, you know, as they get called, you know, get referred to as getting jobs. Now, Matt Rule's not a retread. You know, I don't consider Ron Rivera to be a retread. He had one job. You know, Mike McCarthy, I don't really consider him to be a retread. He had one job as a head coach, you know, with one team. I don't know what the answer to that is, Tommy,

other than continuing to give African Americans opportunities all the way up, you know, every assistant position, every, you know, I don't know what the answer to that is when you've got 32 owners who, are making decisions in which they think are best for their business. I don't know how you force them to hire someone of color. I don't know what the answer is either, but it's a problem. It's a big problem right now. And this is why I think you're going to see a lot of these African-American coaches

go to college and try to become college head. coach because there doesn't seem to be a path for them in the NFL. Look, I don't know if there's anything wrong with Jim Caldwell. I don't understand why he's not a head coach. He did a great job in Indianapolis. He did a much better job than anybody else in Detroit in the past 20 years. And I don't, I mean, unless there's something wrong with Jim Caldwell, maybe he's got a help issue, I don't get it.

I don't understand why he's not a head coach in the United States. the NFL. Marvin Lewis said yesterday on Golick and Wingo ESPN show about all of this. And he was, Marvin Lewis was interviewed one of the two candidates to interview for the Cowboys Head Coaching job. He was thought to be a candidate here in Washington. As it turns out, and I think he was, I think he was the number two choice to Ron Rivera. for Rivera had said no and gone elsewhere.

I mean, Ron Rivera actually satisfied the Rooney Rule because he's a minority. but Marvin Lewis said on Golick and Wingo yesterday, quote, you keep beating your head up against the wall, but I would say, and again, this is somebody's business, this is somebody's franchise, and nobody's going to tell them who to hire, close quote. And then he added a little bit later on in the interview, if we can just somehow open the process a bit more

and provide more opportunity. But yeah, you've got 32, you know, mostly, you know, or many billionaire owners or close to billionaire owners who are going to do what they do. I'm sure in some cases it is tinted the hire by race. I would guess in most cases it isn't. I would hope that in 2020, that the owners are hiring the person they believe

is most qualified for the job and best fits the job, and that Marvin Lewis and Eric Bienimi and others are legitimate candidates in this process. and that it's not a sham, but I bet in some cases it's a sham. Oh, yeah. And, you know, it seems like in some cases, hires are either decisions are made about hiring based on what the fan reaction is throughout the hiring process. I mean, I think any team that hired Marvin Lewis was going to get a pushback from fans

he's saying this guy was, you know, was a losing coach with the Bengals, which he wasn't. He wasn't a losing coach. Actually, he had a winning record with the Bengals, but there's a perception that Marvin Lewis, you know, is not a good coach because he coached for a bad organization and never got them past the first round of the playoffs. I think there's some pushback from owners, and we saw it here with Dan Snyder and Jim Fossil years ago. I mean, you know, in terms of, you know, testing the water, see what kind of reaction would be, and then moving on and hiring a guy like Jim Dorn instead of Jim Fossil. No one could tell me that Jim Dorn was going to be a better head coach in Jim Fossil under any conditions.

So I think there's a lot of it is, you know, what the fan reaction would be. Eric Bix, the enemy, he has no track record as a head coach, so I don't think you get that kind of pushback. I think people would be excited about a guy like Eric Bianami, particularly with Kansas City's offense. But I think for African-American coaches, once they fail once, they unfairly carry more of the burden than maybe a white head coach who failed once. That may be true.

Right now there are three African-American head coaches. Am I right about that? or four minority head coaches, including Ron Rivera, because you've got, we've got Tomlin in Pittsburgh. You have Floris in Miami. San Diego. Yeah, Anthony Lynn. Anthony Lynn in Los Angeles with the Chargers. In Los Angeles.

I'm sorry. San Diego. Oh, my God. What is the, I don't even know the answer to this question, but what is the most number of minority head coaches the NFL's ever had at one time? It's more than three. it's definitely more than three. I don't know what the answer is.

What I'd love to look at is sort of the post-Runy rule hires. Because I think there was some ground gained after the Rooney Rule began. And now it's almost like it's regressed a little bit. Do you have that information? According to this one, article, there were eight in 2011. Eight in 2011. Do you have the eight that were in 2011? I don't.

All right. Yeah, so if it's three now, eight in 2011. And the Rooney Rule, boy, we're 15 years into the Rooney Rule, aren't we? Yeah. I mean, I think we're at least 15 years. It's early 2000s that I think that that rule started. Anyway, yeah, I mean. And, you know, it's not just coaching.

I mean, the front office jobs aren't there either. That's right. But in 2011, a quarter of the jobs were minority hires and minority head coaches in the league. I'm just trying to think back to 2011. Was Todd Bulls a head coach then? I just found this. Apparently in 2017, there were eight as well. In 2017, well, Vance Joseph was a coach.

Steve Wilkes. Anthony Lynn, Marvin Lewis, Mike Tomlin, Jim Caldwell, Hugh Jackson, Ron Rivera, and Todd Bulls. And Todd Bulls, yeah. So there were eight just two years ago. So a third of the head coaches in the league. minority head coaches just two years ago. And now you're going to have three in 2020 unless Cleveland hires somebody. It's going to be interesting.

I don't know if you've been reading the rumors changing subjects to include also all coaching candidates. What if you end up with Josh McDaniels and Tom Brady in Cleveland? Have you guys been following any of that stuff that Tom Brady, if McDaniels gets the job in Cleveland could end up in Cleveland next year is the Browns' course? First of all, I would love to see Mayfield be put in his place. He stinks, and he just seems like a problem. Mayfield does. We didn't talk about Brady the other day. You don't think he's done, do you? No. Me neither. I don't think he's done, and I don't think he's done in New England either. I don't either. I think that's the bet. I mean, that he'll stay and remain in New England. Them losing last week to Tennessee was not his fault.

Not his fault at all. I mean, I thought there was shitty play calling at the end of the first half from McDaniels. They should have thrown the ball in there to get it into the end zone and get a touchdown. That may have been the moment of the game on Saturday night. Edelman had a huge drop when they were driving down 14 to 13, and the defense couldn't get off the field. Derek Henry was unstoppable in that game. Brady didn't look to me this year like he had taken a major step back.

He still looks to me to be at the very worst, like a top half, if not top 10 to 12 quarterback, which you can certainly win with. The step back he took was losing Grunc County. Yeah, they need to put more around them. That's the step back he took. Sure. All right. Quick word about my bookie.ag. Christmas has come and gone, but football's still being played.

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was totally convinced that he was the next Sean McVeyer, Kyle Shanahan. They liked him and they think he's talented, but the fear of him leaving the building for some wasn't nearly what it was, maybe with others. Obviously, Dan and Bruce never feared losing anybody because they had the whole thing figured out. But I think that Kevin O'Connell, that there's promise there, but it's not like bursting, you know, from the seams where it's so obvious to everybody,

what a great coordinator and what a great future head coach he's going to be. Ron Rivera, though, is, go ahead. Who would be? Who's in the building anymore to basically say, we need to keep that guy. Who would we be? Well, so you're leading into what I believe is going on right now, that Ron Rivera actually. actually is the one voice in the one decision maker right now. Are you buying that? Well, two weeks into his regime, he better be.

Yeah, but, you know, Jay Gruden wasn't. I know that, but Jay Gruden was never a head coach before. And there was Bruce. There was Bruce in the way before. Bruce was the buffer. Bruce was, no, if there were two guys, there was Dan and, Bruce. Now there's just Dan. And Dan's probably not going to stand on a table for Kevin O'Connell or act in fear that Kevin O'Connell is going to walk out to the building. Blaine Haskins might. But, you know, Dan, and no one, there's no one left in the building to basically say we can't lose this guy. I mean, it's not surprising that they're moving on.

Well, Dwayne Haskins could have said it. Yes, he could have. He could have talked to his friend Dan and then what's what Snyder going to do go to go to Rivera and say you know the quarterback really likes this guy imagine Tommy Tommy imagine this. Toskins you know calls up Dan hey Dan I really like Kevin O'Connell I think we should keep him can can you me and and Ron get together Ron he's already on a first name basis with the head coach Ron walks in and says Mr. Snyder what can I do for you and Dwayne takes over the meeting hey Dan let me handle this. I really think that we should keep Kevin O'Connell. He was really good for me. I'm comfortable with him. Mr. Snyder, what do you think? Says Ron. And Haskins says,

Dan, tell him what you think. Tell him what you and I talked about. I think that whatever Dwayne says we should do. All right, Mr. Snyder, very good. We'll keep Kevin O'Connell. I mean, the whole Mr. Snyder thing drives me nuts. Although Tommy, Matt Ruhle referred to David Tapper in his introductory news conference yesterday. Twice as David. but multiple times as Mr. and Mrs. Tepper. So there you go. But he did refer to him as David twice. I don't think we heard Dan once from...

No, we did. Oh, he did? Okay, whatever. We did hear Happy Thanksgiving, didn't we? Yes, we did. So I just don't think the fight is there to keep a Kevin O'Connell. So now we're going to enter to Scott Turner, Eric. I know.

What I was saying to you, though, is, I think even if everybody else were left in the building and there wasn't this big new change, that Kevin probably would have stayed, but I think there were varying opinions in the building about what Kevin O'Connell is potentially down the road. I think some people really like him and think that he's good, and others think that he is not, you know, Sean McVeigh. You know, remember, you have to put Kevin O'Connell into the conversation with Sean McVe because one of the conversations about him is you can't let the next Sean McVey leave the building.

I don't think that people out there, football people out there, viewed Kevin O'Connell in the same way they viewed Sean McVeigh. That's all I'm saying. So maybe Rivera didn't either. And so for all of those saying, well, it's just Rivera hiring somebody that's comfortable to him, somebody he knows. And there's some risk here. My sense of it is it's probably a combination of both. He likes Scott Turner, believes in Scott Turner, and also, wasn't necessarily really worried about the risk of letting Kevin O'Connell go.

We'll see how it plays out. It may ultimately be that Kevin O'Connell develops into something special, but he's not going to do it here. And the only job that's only – here will be a real interesting thing about Kevin O'Connell. If Kevin O'Connell doesn't get hired by Josh McDaniels, if McDaniels gets the Cleveland job, and he's hanging out there and he doesn't get an OC job, then we know. Then we'll know exactly why he's not in Washington anymore. A real football guy, Ron Rivera, recognized that Kevin O'Connell was an up-and-comer, but not a lock to be an offensive coordinator or a head coach.

Remember this. What if he gets hired in New England? No, what I'm saying, well, as what, the quarterback's coach? That's where he was before. I'm talking about it. If he doesn't get an oaths. Well, if McDaniels is there, he won't get that job. But if McDaniels late.

Well, then more likely than not, O'Connell's going to go with McDaniels. Why wouldn't he, why wouldn't Belichick hire? Maybe he does. That would be telling. Yeah. Yeah, it would be. And I don't know for a fact that Kevin O'Connell wanted to be here. You know, there's a lot of discussion that Kevin was ready to move on to

and take this next shot, wherever it is. but Ron Rivera is, for the moment, a week and a half in, and it hasn't been a long period of time yet, he is getting to call the shots. Yes. And people should not run to the bank with this as the new and change, Dan Snyder. Why not? Because it's two weeks, Kevin.

Come on, he would have to be a bigger idiot than happy Thanksgiving. giving to basically do this in the first two weeks. I wouldn't run to the bank. I wouldn't run to my bookie. What if I just run outside and say, yay! This is a good start. Is that okay? Go ahead.

Well, it's better than the alternative. I'm going to do that for the time. It's better than the opposite. Let's talk about Scott Turner for a minute. Yeah. Go ahead. You want to talk to it? This is an interesting gamble.

because if the Redskins have quick and immediate success, particularly offensively, Scott Turner is going to get the credit, and he could be a head coach somewhere within three years. Well, that would mean they performed really well. Right. Okay. The downside is, and you should be familiar with this,

is that if they don't do well, Scott Turner will be the whipping boy for Redskins fans. They will buy dolls and stick pins in it because he's Norv Turner. He will. You saw what's happened to Kyle Shanahan, who had no history with the, whose father had no history with the organization. But he was here. They will crucify Scott Turner if he is not successful. He will become the focal point for Redskins Brass if the offense struggles.

They will just murder him. I don't know about that. I do want to play for you, though. It dovetails perfectly into this opportunity to play for you what Scott Turner said about his dad yesterday on the Larry Michael Redskin Nation Show. He's really excited. You know, it's a great deal. He's going to be, you'll see him.

He'll be out here, I'm sure once we get OTAs going, you know, be around. and, you know, I'm going to lean on him, you know, like I have my whole career. But he's excited, and it honestly couldn't have been a better place for me. Tommy, he's going to be around at OTAs. Norv's going to be hanging around. We got Norv Turner back. He's not, as we, more likely than not, Matt Rule's not going to keep Norv Turner on his staff.

He's probably going to hire his new staff. Maybe Norv has gotten to the point where he's ready to just follow his son's career. His son's now an offensive coordinator. You know, he's one step away from being a head coach, as you said, potentially, if the offense does well within a couple of years. And we're going to get Norv back in Washington. God, those years with Norv, we're so great. This would really be, and I'm being serious here.

If Norv's hanging around the building, if he's out at OTAs and Ron's talking to him and he's on the field, you talk about a sign and a signal that it is a new. day. And that would be OTA, so we'd only be four or five months into the Rivera era at that point. So, again, I wouldn't run to the bank with it that things have changed for good. But Norv and Dan, I don't think there was any love loss there. No, there probably wasn't. But again, you know, Norv is watching out for his kid at this point. And he recognizes this is a head coaching path for his kid. And he's going to do everything he can. to help them do that.

And if that means being on the same field with Snyder and getting along with him, he'll do that. That's what you would do for your kid. It's what I would do for mine. Yeah, no doubt. I wonder how welcoming Dan will be to Norv being a part of the operation in the spring. Here's the other thing.

Here's the other thing. I think they believe, and they may have good reason to believe, that Ron Rivera will protect them. The turners. Ron's our guy. Dan's staying away. Norve calls up, Ron, says, Ron, I'm going to come out there.

I want to watch Scott and see how he's doing. I've got a couple ideas, too. I've been watching some tape on the team. But you've got to keep that guy away from me. You've got to keep the owner away. I don't want to see him. We got it, we got it, North. He's nowhere near.

We actually told him he had to move out of the building for a year. I think they believe. I think they believe that. I don't think Norve would let his son get into this situation if he didn't believe that Ron Rivera would protect his son from the Snyder virus. I know, Tom, but think about what you're saying. No one's been able to protect anybody from each other under this ownership. So just the notion that Norv would buy into, Ron's in charge. And it's okay for my son to go to this place, this place that I've known firsthand and, you know, from afar over the last 20 years as one of the true, you know, cesspools in the NFL says what, you know,

what Norv thinks. Now, maybe Norv thinks that Scott wouldn't have gotten an opportunity anywhere else. And hey, son, I don't know who else is going to hire you, but Ron likes just to just go to work for Ron. I want to play for you what Steve Smith, senior, said about Ron Rivera and Scott Turner because we talked last week about how all of his former players were so complimentary. I mean, and there wasn't one outlier. Nobody was not one discrunneled ex-player. Steve Smith, Sr., who played for him for three years in Carolina, 2011, 2012, and 2013, and was let go by Ron Rivera, called into a Charlotte radio show, the Kyle Bailey show, and said this about Ron Rivera and Scott Turner.

Coach Rivera goes up to Washington. What does he do? Take away the ping pong table. Come on now. Really? That's the biggest impact we're going to make. You're taking away the ping pong table on the shuffleboard, but you're going to hire the same weak-ass offense coordinator you have in Carolina, and now you got them in Washington.

Ooh. Ooh. Okay. That shots fired a little bit there. I mean, look. No, no. No, it's 20-20 player. What I tell you, 20-20.

That's true. You are a fire breather in 2020. You're right. You did just say it yesterday. That's my mistake. You did give me a fair warning on that. I'm just saying you get, you don't have a general manager, you are the new coach, and the biggest impact you make is the ping pong table?

Hopefully we're going to give them a little bit more time to make more of an impact and just pulling the ping pong table out. But that was a bit of a shot at Ron Rivera, who Rivera let Steve Smith, senior, go. And he called Scott Turner a weak-ass coordinator. Weak-ass offensive coordinator, and he was only the offensive. coordinator for like four or five games in Carolina. I know. Yeah. I think all of these things are TBD. Like we were talking about the other day with Eric Schaefer, I don't think anybody really knows. And you're either just going to trust Ron because the last group was clearly untrustworthy.

And it's a new day, and Ron's the new day. I'm going with it. Whoever he hires, I am fine with for the moment. I'll save my criticism for down the road unless he hires somebody that I know to be a jackass, and he hasn't done that yet. He needs to surround himself with as many friends of Ron as possible, and make sure there's very few, if any, friends of Dan left in the building. That's what he needs. You know, the one mistake Shannahan, Mike Shanahan did, was he thought by bringing in Bruce Allen that that would be a friend of Mike's,

but it turned out you know Bruce who who recognized who owns the team became a friend of Dan so it was always Bruce and Dan versus Mike Ron needs to make sure Dan is on an island

by himself with no other ally of note in that building yeah agreed two more things I want to get to that are Redskins related I'm going to play a Jack Del Rio Bight. He was on Ian Rappaport's podcast the other day.

Really? Yeah. Was he? Why, I missed that. I should listen to that. Well, I mean, he's not on, I don't know, he might be on local radio. It just seems hard for our station to get these people. But anyway, the Marty Herney situation, Marty Herney, do you remember Marty? You were covering the team when Marty was. No, I was.

Marty was gone by the time. Yeah, because he left when Bobby Betherd went to San Diego. Bethard liked him and took him with him to San Diego. But as we all know, he was a reporter covering the Redskins for the Washington Times. So I'm a big Marty Hurdy fan just based on that. But I didn't know Marty. So this is not, you know, a report. This is not something that I've gained information-wise from a source at all.

But I watched, per a friend's recommendation, the Matt Rule introductory news conference in Charlotte yesterday is the Panthers new head coach. And he's very impressive. The whole production of this introductory news conference, Tommy, was completely different than what we saw in Ashburn last week. David Tepper, the owner, first of all, Mick Mixon, who is their longtime play-by-play guy for the Panthers on radio. He was the emcee of the event. This was a big time event. This wasn't just, you know, Dan walking to the podium for the 90 seconds and then hearing from Ron Rivera. It was Mick Mixon.

It was a big video. Matt Ruhl at Temple, Matt Ruhl at Baylor, the big production. And then David Teper, the new owner of the Panthers, gets introduced by Mick Mixon, and he's got his own walk-up music. They're playing at walk-up music. And Mick Mixen tells you that it's an imagined dragon. song, the owner walking up to the podium with his own walk-up music. And then he had, you know, sort of a rambling, you know, there was no happy Thanksgiving wish, which was disappointing and

disrespectful as somebody tweeted out yesterday. I forget who. But it was not, you know, totally inspirational, but it was very complimentary of Matt Rule, obviously. And he told the story about how they went down to Waco, Texas, and they showed up to the Rule House. and Matt and his wife hadn't even gotten back from Mexico yet, so they were waiting on them. And then Matt and his wife showed up. They were coming back from a vacation. And it was David Tepper, the owner and Marty Herney. And they helped the rules take their luggage in and sat down and started to interview.

And then Tepper tells the story about how Marty Herney is like a really tough interviewer and he's really digging into different things. And five minutes into the interview, Marty Herney's already turned and now he's recruiting rule. Like he's so excited already by Matt Rule. He's already made his decision, and now they're all turning into like trying to convince Rule to take the job. So he had mentioned Herney and then multiple times when Matt Rule got up to speak. He's talking about the relationship with Marty Herney that he can't wait to work with Marty, can't wait to get after it with Marty. So if you listen to that press conference yesterday, the rumors about Marty Herney being the next Redskins general manager after the May draft. It didn't seem like that based on what you heard from Matt Rule's introductory news conference. So I wanted to mention that. Anybody can go listen to it and watch it. It's online.

And I think you'll come to the same conclusion I did, which is I'd be shocked based on the way, you know, they described the relationship and the hope that Marty and Matt Rule developed this long-time thing and bring the program back the whole thing that he's going to end up in Washington. And then there was this Jack Del Rio sound that I wanted to play from, Ian Rappaport's podcast from the other day, Tommy. Listen to what Del Rio said about the Redskins talent. What do you think of the talent? I mean, you studied all that film. I know you like this defense, otherwise you probably wouldn't be here.

So what do you like? Well, you know, I like the nucleus of players. You know, I've talked to a couple of the players. I think they're eager to be better. To me, I see a great opportunity to improve. I, you know, look, every team has talent, you know, to like to say, hey, we have some talent. Yeah, no kidding. Who doesn't?

It's, you know, in the NFL, it's college all-stars. So we all have talent. So, you know, it's not about standing up and saying we've got some talent because, like I said, everybody does. So we're not going to sit around and pat ourselves on the back because we've got a couple of guys that are pretty good players. We've got a lot of work to do. And so to me, it's about digging in. It's about working that process of getting better. It's about learning the fundamentals, about understanding where you belong in the defense

and what your responsibilities are and the developing a mentality of playing fast and those things. So we're going to focus more on that and not so much talking about how good we think we might be or have the potential to be. I think to me that's a waste of time. That's really – So no top five defense declarations? Nope. He's got a whole different program in mind.

I mean, they got a whole culture of over-promising and under-delivering to turn around. I mean, I love hearing that from that guy. You know, the worst, can you imagine if you had heard the following answer? Oh, my God, you know, I was watching these guys on tape. I mean, I think we've got top five defensive talent. Thank God. He didn't say that. You know, thank God we didn't get the Josh Norman and the wrong.

Rob Ryan and the Ryan Clark from years past proclamations about all-time great defenses and top five talent. Somebody, I hope, has mentioned to him, and you know it wasn't going to be anybody out there, that he's entering into a culture that A wasn't damn good, and B, has thrived on and been fed by this over-promise under-deliver mindset for years. That's not him, at least based on that answer. answer. No. No, you're right. That was a pretty smart, intelligent response to that. The only problem, he's a little bit naive when it comes to this notion of everybody's got talent. Listen,

talent is kind of a new thing for the Redskins. Okay? I mean, the talent is something that's a new, a new development for the Redskins because they haven't had talent. Okay? So, Not everybody has, maybe the rest of the NFL has talent, but the Redskins, they didn't have talent. Now they do have some talent. You know, they've had some talent. They just haven't realized that they've had some talent. Look at some of the players that have gone. Well, I mean, look at the players participating in the playoffs last weekend, all the ex-redskins, Lorenzo Alexander, Trent Murphy, Preston Smith, you know, this upcoming weekend.

But no, you're right. For the most part, they've drafted poorly, you know, until the recent years, they've never handled free agency well. You know, teams with, you know, Cullen Jenkins and Ricky Jean-Francois and Ziggy Hood and, you know, Anthony Lanier are a little bit different from, you know, we hope, we hope, Duran Payne, John Allen, and Matt Ionitis. Let's hope that he does think that he's got some talent but isn't going to boast about it, which would be, you know, would be nice in this organization for the first time. All right, before you run, since we're not going to talk tomorrow, we've got four divisional round playoff games coming up. The first one's Minnesota at San Francisco. There was some news yesterday. Adam Thielen heard his ankle in practice yesterday.

They think he's going to be ready. He cut it. He cut it somehow. He cut it? Yes, I think it's a cut. I didn't know that it was a cut. I didn't read that. Asker, Aaron, did you read anywhere it was a cut?

Oh, here it is. You're right. I didn't see this part of the story. You're 100% right. Thielen cut his ankle, which required stitches, according to the NFL network. Yeah, you're right. I did not see that in the story earlier. You know what? It actually was just updated, too. So maybe it wasn't in the story that I read earlier. They need Thielen. You know, they had some big games offensively this year without them. but they needed them, and Diggs was sick during practice yesterday, too. So the four playoff games, give me the game that you are most looking forward to watching, and then which of the road teams do you think has the best chance? Well, look, I mean, I'm interested in the 49ers against the Vikings because of the drama of Kyle Shanahan versus Kirk Cousins.

I mean, if you're a Redskins fan, there's a lot of best. baggage there to, you know, create your rooting interests one way or the other, or just discuss for everyone involved, which is probably the case for most Redskins fans. So the game I'm most interested in is to see if Minnesota, I mean, if the Vikings and Kirk Cudson can somehow go to San Francisco or wherever they are now, somewhere in California. And when a game like, win a game like that on the road? Then I think you should, I mean, I know we talked about this before, and it would have to be the Super Bowl,

but I think you could at least hold a parade down maybe 10th Street. No, we've got to get to the Super Bowl. Okay, okay, so that's the game I'm most interested in. Which is the team on the road? The Vikings, the Titans against Baltimore, the Texans against the Chiefs, or the Seahawks at Lambeau? Which are the road teams do you think has the best chance to win? Oh, I think it's a Seahawks. You think they will win?

at Lambo. Yeah, I do. I think they will win. You know, maybe I'll be proven wrong about this. And God knows, during a regular season, I've been proven wrong. You can't take anything away from Matt LaFourer's done, but I'm still not impressed with them, you know? And in a situation like this against Pete Carroll, I'm going to Pete Carroll. That number's up to five, Aaron. You see that? I just pulled that up. They opened four. It's up to five now. So there's some sharp money. on the Packers Sunday and the public's all over Seattle. It's a good combination for me. I don't know if it'll work out,

but maybe the Packers win that game. I want you, before you run, to listen to what Robert Salah, who's the defensive coordinator for San Francisco. He was asked yesterday during his press conference leading up to this playoff game, what makes Kirk Cousins so effective. This is what he said. He is very, very decisive with the football. He knows exactly where he needs to go.

The pre-snap movement of the defense doesn't, or the post-snap movement of the defense doesn't really fool him very often. He knows post-snap, by the time he hits his back foot where that ball needs to go, he knows where everyone is on the football field. And because of it, he can make a very smart decision. And so that's, to answer your question, it's his decision-making in his mind and how quick it works while he's in his drop and all that stuff.

So he's worth everything. So you missed the end of it. got sort of chopped up when it was edited. He said at the very end there, he's worth every penny he's getting paid. Really? Yeah, he did. I mean, it's the opponent's defensive coordinator. He's going to be complimentary.

But I played that for the following reason. A, I love Kirk Cousins and the Vikings have become my favorite team. No, that's not true. The first part is true. But this is why he's good. This is why football people, when he has said in the past, those who know, know, this is what they're talking about. And this is the part of the game that Dwayne Haskins has to become really effective at.

Now, one of the reasons Kirk absolutely has to be super sharp pre-snap, post-snap, and decisive is because he's not an extend-the-player creator. I think Dwayne Haskins is more of a creator and off-scheduled quarterback than Kirk Cousins is, which is why in many ways I think Haskins upside. is much higher. But these are the things in today's NFL that all of these guys notice and look for in quarterbacks. You know, can they walk up to the line of scrimmage, know what you're in, and then after the snap, determine what you're moving into if it wasn't what you thought it was pre-snap, and then make an action that, you know, go through a process quickly. And that's what he's done so well from day one.

That's what Mike Shanahan and Kyle Shanahan always said, is that he's really smart, and he knows everything. He knows where you are and where you're going to be and where the ball should go. Haskins has to get to that point. Jason Reed put out a tweet the other day. I don't know if you read it. I thought it was really interesting. And, you know, Jason, of course, covered the team for the post. I think he writes for the undefeated now.

Right. Was at the radio station, you know, a couple of years ago? So Jason Reed tweeted out the following. I thought it was interesting, and I did some discussion on it yesterday. For Haskins' sake, I really hope the young man is ready to live in the building. I hope he understands the task ahead. I'm not sure Washington's week one starter in 2020 is even on the roster. The first part of that, Jason's hearing a lot of what we've all heard,

which is he's got to learn how to, you know, to prepare. And according to the people I've talked to, he got much better at that during the course of the year. But what do you make of just the notion that the 2020 starter is not even on the roster? Well, does that raise speculation about Cam Newton wind up in Washington? Sure. Cam Newton? Yeah. Philip Rivers.

Resigning Case Keenham. Alex Smith. I don't think it's Alex Smith as an option. Who knows? Could mean anything. Could mean drafting Tua. Yeah, it could. It really could. I mean, but I think Cam Newton, until Cam Newton's future is resolved, I think that's the big Mata ball out there. You really do?

We don't know. Yeah, we don't know how much Long Revere really loved Cam Newton. We don't really know. Yeah, and same goes for Scott Turner, although he was complimentary yesterday about him. All right, anyway, I'm done with you. I've got to move on. I got things to do. You've got things to do. Get to the pool.

I'll talk to you Monday. We'll talk about these games and a lot of other stuff. All right, boss. I'll see you. Thanks. All right. Last thing, because we didn't get a chance to get to it yesterday, was just Maryland's win.

Aaron and I, you know, I was at the game. Aaron watched the game. I was really impressed with Maryland defensively. I've been impressed with them defensively all year long. Stick Smith, I thought, had the best. defensive game. I've seen him play. If they play defense like that and they've been a consistently good defensive team all year, if that continues through the rest of the year, some of the guys that haven't shot it well like Aaron Wiggins, I think eventually will. Iala didn't shoot it great the

other night. I think he is capable of being a much better shooter. Bottom line is if you defend like that, you're going to have a chance come March. They're a good team. I want to see them proceed through the rest of this, you know, Big Ten schedule. you know, thinking about winning a Big Ten title. You know, Maryland has not won the Big Ten regular season yet since they've been in the Big Ten. They've had several top three or top four finishes. I'd like to see him really legitimately contend if not win the Big Ten title, Aaron. But I think they're a good team.

And remember after the Seton Hall game, I said to you, there are going to be some nights where we're like, Maryland's not very good. And other nights were going to say, wow, they could be really good. And the other night against Ohio State was one of those games. Yeah, absolutely. If that defense is what we can expect, going forward and they get, you know, a little bit better of an offense, they're going to be a dangerous team that can go deep in March.

Indeed. They play Iowa tomorrow night. They've got four of their next five on the road, including Wisconsin on Tuesday night, and Wisconsin lost last night at home to Illinois. Illinois, you know, just pounded Purdue and just went on the road and beat Wisconsin. The Big Ten this year is by far and away the best league in college basketball. The ACC, the league we used to be a part of. that I still sometimes wish they were a part of?

Stinks this year. Carolina in particular, really stinks. All right, that's it for today. Back tomorrow, enjoy the day.