The Kevin Sheehan Show - OTA Plutonium + Thom's Twitter Fight

Episode Date: June 2, 2026

Kevin and Thom back together again with a menu of excellence and variety. The boys discussed the phenomenon known as "under center" quarterbacking. Plenty on other OTA topics including Jayden Daniels' media maturity. More on the two big NFL trades from yesterday. Kevin with more detail on his Italy trip. Thom was fired up about his X/Twitter battle with ESPN's Fran Fraschilla. Kevin on the Francis Tiafoe loss at the French Open, Thom's Knicks-Spurs pick, the Nats, and more.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match   Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to www.Quince.com/SHEEHAN for free shipping and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too.   Chime is not just smarter banking, it is the most rewarding way to bank. Head to www.Chime.com/SHEEHAN. It only takes a few minutes to sign up. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. He is Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. The show's presenting sponsor is always,

Window Nation, 86690 Nation. Window Nation.com if you need new windows. I did put out a show last night after I got back from Italy. I know it got out pretty late, But I kind of went through a lot of the things that I had missed while I was away, including the NBA playoffs. Tommy's here. I do want to get his thoughts on that. But I wanted to start the show, Tommy, with this from Stephen, who wrote, Terrence, pot roast, Knighton, Capital Punishment, not Capital Defense.

Tommy doesn't know what I'm talking about, but Stephen, thank you so much. for that. I could not figure out back in the day when a player on Washington's defense during OTAs decided that the defense looked so great that he needed a name for it. And I said it was capital defense. And Stephen gave me capital punishment. And the guy that came up with it was Terence Knighton, aka Potros Knighton. I do remember Terrence Potros Knighton. I thought it may have been before the 2016 season, but it was before the 2015 season

in which the defense promptly finished ranked 28th in the NFL. Is this in response to Javon Kinlaw's declaration? Yes. We've got a lot of mofos in camp here. I thought, first thing I did when I got back and I came into studio yesterday is I did not follow anything. OTA related, you know what I think of this time of the year and the play-by-playing of OTAs and training camp. And it's already at a fever. Oh, my God.

Yeah, because I read some of the emails and tweets that I had gotten, which I actually should read you one of them because it's, I don't think the guy was being honest. I think he was trying to elicit a reaction. But I said after listening to all of the press conferences or the major ones, I went back yesterday and listened to Jadens, which actually I really thought he came off as different, like grown up, mature, not just trying to get through it as quickly as he could. But whatever. I said, by far in a way, the most entertaining thing that I missed related to O.D., TAs was Javan Kinlaw's MFer and then S word as a comma in between, you know, naming every defensive

player that can really go. And I said, it sounds like he's on the verge of coming up with a nickname like they had a few years back when they called their defense capital defense. And I couldn't remember if it was Chris Baker or Ricky John Francois. But Stephen sent me a link to actually a story. It was Terrence Potros Knighton that was so impressed during OTAs, he said, we need a nickname for this defense. And it was capital punishment.

I know. Yeah. Listen, in my column in today's Washington Times, let me read your first couple paragraphs. Yeah. The first Washington commanders' OTAs are in the books, and there were two things that defined them. one was the declaration of returning defensive tackle Javon Kinlaw to all the new faces on defense. Quote, we got some mofos motherfuckers here now.

Okay? I said this was on May 27th. The commander's season begins September 13th. This reminded me of the declaration by Washington Safety Ryan Clark in the summer of 2014. When he told the NFL network before training, training camp started, quote, as far as all the pieces we have in the secondary, it's the most talented secondary I've been around. It's the most talented group of corners I've ever played with.

And then I followed up with that past defense, wound up 24th in the league that season, allowing 4,231 passing yards. You can find more of Ryan Clark's opinions on ESPN. Yeah, and they are, he's insufferable on social media. But that's what it reminds me of, you know. Oh, yeah. And the other one I came up with was, and I think it was Trent Williams, who basically dubbed the O-line Hogs 2.0. I forget what season that was.

I think it may have been 2017 or 2016. I don't know, but listen to this email. I read it on yesterday's show. Terry D. wrote it to me. Kevin, I know you don't think much of OTAs, but all the talk last week was really positive. Chig looked sharp, as in Chigakanquo. Diami picked up the chemistry with Jaden

from where he left it off in the playoff game in Detroit. Terry, as in McLaurin, is in early, and it's already paying off, And the best news yet, Stiles and Williams, that's Antonio Williams, the third round pick, are ready to play at a high level right now. I don't think you'll need time to grade this last draft. I hope you've been following along and will weigh in. This has got to be a phony. Yeah, that's what I thought.

After reading it for the second time, I'm like, now there are people that absolutely lose. live for the play-by-playing of this time of year and actually read into it and think that there's something to this. And as I said yesterday and as I've said every year for the last 10 years, when I mock those that take training camp and OTAs seriously, like, it's possible that Terry D is going to be right about everything. But it's not because of what's happening right now at OTAs. Yeah Whatever I mean

Look There have been no injuries That's the best news so far in OTAs Because the giants have had three or four injuries Like big injuries And that's all you want You just want them to get to the regular season healthy By the way real quickly on Jaden Daniels

Did you watch his presser last week? Yes What I said about a certain level of maybe maturity. Did you observe that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Absolutely, and it's something I would expect at this point.

Sure. Of him. Yeah. This is his third season. Yes. So I certainly would expect that. Yeah, I definitely know that's that. I really, I know that I am in the tank for Jaden Daniels.

Well, so am I, buddy. I know. But it goes. back to, I just fell in love with him as a player at LSU. I'm like, I mean, there were just performances that were just absolutely jaw-dropping. But there's something about him that's really likable to. Like, there's just not any, and I'm knocking on wood as I say this, because I don't want it to reveal itself later on.

There is just no self-promotional part of his whole personality. none. And look, there are other players that don't go around and self-promote that I like a lot, but I'm so glad that that's part of his personality. He's not an excuse-maker. He's not a throw anybody under the bus guy. He's a total team guy. And he just seems incapable of self-promotion.

You know, I wonder if he's, and this may be given him too much credit, if he's disaware. But he may be. I wonder if it's an awareness that if the team does well, his star will shine. It could be. It could be. I think, you know,

I think guys that are just, I mean, this is going to sound critical and it's not. I think he's just one of those narrowly focused, absolutely in love with playing football, dedicated gym rat. There's a gym rat nature to him. There's a grinder nature to him. I just think people like that in almost any field, not just sports. I just, I think I respect and appreciate that in a personality makeup of somebody as much as anything else.

I want the person that's looking to exceed the expectations that those that have put him in this spot have of him. Like some people feel like they've arrived when they get drafted. I mean, we have high school kids who feel like they have arrived when they get a college scholarship and they make a big deal about the announcement of it, et cetera. And I just always feel like, you know, God, I want the person that realizes. is this isn't the culmination of something. This is the introduction in the beginning of something. And I feel like somebody like him feels like every year he has something, he's got a lot to prove.

Every year, no matter what happened the year before, he's got to exceed expectations. He's got to prove to people that he belongs. I get that sense with him. I could be wrong. This is entering his third season. but I did notice more of he was more comfortable.

You know, I always felt like every press conference, none of them are scintillating with him, but I always felt like most of them were, okay, Sean told me there are going to be eight or nine questions, let me get through him as quickly as possible. And he was looking for that. And I didn't feel that way in watching the press conference the other day. You know, since we're on OTAs,

let me continue reading my, column. Please. A little bit, if I could. The other defining theme of the first OTAs of 2026 was that the commanders discovered plutonium. They put quarterback Jaden Daniels under center. That's good. That's a good one.

I mean, this was treated like some sort of revolutionary football development. Like the first time someone took the quarterback out from under center and put them five steps back in the shotgun position. Right. You know? And so I basically wrote about, it seemed as if they were asking Daniels to learn how to speak Mandarin.

Which is, I believe, I believe Mandarin is the most difficult language to learn. I could be wrong. It's funny, we had a conversation about languages and which are the hardest to learn, and which are the more similar. and I said, I think Mandarin Chinese is the toughest, and that Spanish is, you know, the easiest.

And I think Mandarin Chinese was the toughest, but Spanish wasn't necessarily the easiest. I forget. We had an AI-generated answer in the moment. But, yes. But, I mean, my point is there was way too much focus and way too much attention paid. like this was, this was going to be a dramatic change that he was going to have to deal with.

I understand there are plate-calling components that come with that. You know, that he, that will be different than what he did with Cliff Kingsbury. But when they keep talking about, you know,

how do you think he looked under center? You know, Jaydon, what did you think about playing under center? I know. I know. I, you know, the, and I mentioned this on radio today, and I forget how I got into it. But it was something David Blow spoke today. You know, there are like 17 cuts that my producer Max put together during the show. We played five or six of them, all on Jaden. But, but anyway, nothing earth shattering.

not plutonium exploration by far. But for those that think that when people say, well, they're going under center in 2026, just so you know, even the teams that were leading the league in under center snaps last year, the year before that, I went through this after Kingsbury and the promotion of Blau, and I don't have the numbers in front of me right now. But even like other than maybe one or two teams,

everybody else in the top 10 in terms of the teams that led the league, you know, top 10 leaders in under center snaps, basically eight or nine of those teams and the rest of the league still had more snaps that weren't under center than were. The game is still played much more in terms of formationally with the quarterbacks, not under center than under center. It's just that the Rams and the Seahawks

and a lot of the Shannahan style in particular and even the Ben Johnson style, they're under center more than the rest of the league. But they still take more snaps from shotgun and from pistol than they do under center. Yes. So it's not like, you know, we're not going to see 1960s,

1970s football where, you know, there's a round huddle and they break from the round huddle and the quarterback gets under center and starts breaking out signals on every single play. They're still going to be in shotgun or pistol more than they'll be under center. And I concluded with the real important theme of the first OTAs was simply seeing Jane Daniels healthy on the football field. that's the only thing that really matter or the one that matters the most it's the thing that matters the most about next season is number five playing 17 games or is he playing in seven games i mean that's you know obviously 20 games in the first year because they had three playoff games seven

games last year and only four complete games start to finish yeah that that's the most important thing. And, you know, in answering some of the, you know, the discussion about OTAs and this time of year and, you know, the trades that happen, that's real substance this time of year. Okay. Miles Garrett getting traded is a real thing that we can talk about with, you know, an understanding of what it might mean to the teams involved, et cetera. As I say, yesterday talking about Jaden Daniels throwing a hitch pattern to Luke McCaffrey on time in seven on seven in shorts is not substance. It means nothing, literally nothing to us. It may mean something to David Blow, but he's not going to tell you what it means specifically. But I went back before the

radio show this morning and just, you know, I feel like I do this every year again and it gets repetitive. but I just went back and I looked at, number one, the odds to win the Super Bowl this time last year for 2025. And then I found a story from September 4th, a few days before the NFL season opened up last year in Philadelphia with the defending champion Eagles and the Cowboys playing at the link. a story that had 68 ESPN NFL or football commentators, analysts, and their predictions for the upcoming season. First of all, your five favorites to win the Super Bowl last year. Buffalo, Baltimore, Kansas City, Philadelphia, and Detroit. Those were the five favorites to win the Super Bowl last year.

Three of those teams, Baltimore, Kansas City, and Detroit didn't even make the playoffs. Philadelphia didn't get out of the first round, and only one of those five Buffalo made it to the second round, and then they got eliminated. This time of year, yes, I'm a believer in the odds makers and them understanding what's going on, but there's too much about an NFL season that's completely unpredictable at this point, but will be majorly impactful. But how about this, Tommy, from the 68 ESPN commentators, reporters, writers that made their picks before last season. So in terms of, and here were the picks, they picked AFC champion, NFC champion, Super Bowl winner, and league MVP.

The Super Bowl winners, 30 of the 68 picked the Ravens. The Ravens didn't make the playoffs. 19 of the 68 picked the bills. They didn't get to the Super Bowl and win it. They did make the playoffs. Eight picked the chiefs didn't make the playoffs. Five picked the Eagles lost in the first round. Three picked the Lions didn't make the playoffs.

One picked the Packers, one picked the Buccaneers. One picked the Broncos. So of those 68, eight teams got at least one vote. And of those eight teams, none of them made the Super Bowl, let alone won the Super Bowl. And only one of those teams made the final four, and that was the Broncos, and they got one vote. the AFC champion selection, Ravens 33 votes, Bills 25 votes, Chiefs, nine votes, the Broncos one vote. So one person got one of the two teams in the AFC championship game, but not the winner. So nobody got the winner right.

And then nobody got the NFC champion right either because the Eagles, Packers, Lions got the majority of the votes. By the way, Washington got two votes. Seattle got no votes, and they were the NFC champion. The Rams got one vote. They were in the NFC championship game. And then the league MVP voting, Jackson, Burrow, Allen Mahomes, and Jaden, Daniels were the top five. Matt Stafford didn't get one vote. Drake May, who finished second, didn't get a vote.

Nobody knows anything on May, on June 2nd, September 2nd. and sometimes even on November 2nd as you approach the halfway mark of the season, but at least you know more then. Actually, the Rams think they know something. I'll tell you what, man. They're fun to watch. They think they know something. They think they know what's going to happen in January.

You know what? They don't care. I talked about this yesterday. One of the things I love about the way the Rams approach every year, Now, they have a reason to do it, and the reason is Matt Stafford. They have the most important position on the field and in the sport figured out, which allows them to be more aggressive and think one year at a time, not two, three, four, five years at a time.

I mean, even when they had Jared Goff, they felt like they had a guy good enough to go out and be aggressive, which they were. But this is a franchise that just, understands that every NFL season is like this entity that it's its own entity. It just isn't related to the year that preceded it or the year that will follow it. It is the most dynamic of all of the sports leagues in terms of how things change. And the minimal things that can happen that can totally, and unpredictable things that can happen,

that can totally throw off, you know, a season and make something either much better than you thought or much worse than you thought. And they just look at it and they say, we're going for it because the only season we care about is the upcoming season, because this league is essentially designed if you've got the quarterback for you to contend immediately. I agree. And, you know, there must be so much self-confidence in that organization. between less need and Sean McVeigh. You know what they are? In a way, and I know circumstances come into play here,

but they are who a lot of people thought the 49ers would be. How so? A marriage of a dynamic general manager and a tremendously talented coach. Coach. Yeah. I think the difference is that, first of all, I do think there's a bit of a difference in the ability to create a roster between Sneed and Lynch. And so I would put the Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan might be sort of a draw. I'd give the nod to L.A.

But beyond that, L.A.'s had a much better quarterback situation during the... last, you know, eight, nine years. Yes. You know, even Jared Gough was better than Jimmy Garapolo. And Matt Stafford is a Hall of Fame quarterback. And he may be older, but he was awesome last year as a 39-year-old, 38-year-old. What was he last year? Stafford.

Yeah. And that's, I think that's been the big difference. I mean, Brock Purdy's fine and great. Garopolo actually played pretty well in some big games that they had, but nobody compares to Stafford. Look, the Rams, I've said this so many times since the end of last season, and it might bore some of you because whatever, the results are the results. But literally, we saw a team not win the Super Bowl because of special teams. That's pretty rare. they had a punt return by Shaheed in that Thursday night game that essentially cost them home field advantage

and then they fumbled a punt in the championship game at Seattle that cost them the game. I mean, they fired their special teams coach late in the season. They were the, I think they were the best offense defense in the league. I mean, Seattle's defense was better. And the Rams went after trying to improve the defense, obviously, this year, with the trade yesterday with Trump McDuffie. But yeah, I like the Rams a lot on paper, but who knows? All it's going to take is one Matt Stafford, you know,

wrong way turn of a knee or an Achilles, and they're doomed. It'll be all over. They got Ty Simpson waiting in the wings. That's the only thing that's weird about their off-season is that they didn't use that pick on something they could use right away. that bucked their normal personality. Yeah, that is weird. But it is that position.

I know, but I just have that much faith in Sean McVeigh that they knew what they were doing, if this was his idea. The A.J. Brown trade, of course, not a surprise. I did read something early this morning that said the Rams were actually interested in A.J. Brown at some point since the end of the season. And they decided not to pursue him. And I do think that as talented as A.J. Brown is, I think I said this on the show yesterday. If I didn't, then I'm glad I'm saying it now. I would have said it in repeat with Tommy here anyway.

But I've been a big fan of A.J. Brown until last year. I thought his performance at the end of last season, in particular in the playoff game against the 49ers was truly gutless. And I thought red flaggish. He short-armed and half-assed through that game in that loss to the 49ers. And I thought it was just a BS performance. And it was one of those where it was like, okay, you really don't want to be here. But my God, this is a playoff game. you guys are the defending champs go out swinging and he was in that game three catches for 25 yards on seven targets

and of those four targets that he didn't have catches on two or three of them were drops or short arms and i i just i remember coming in the day after saying you know he's great and he is gifted and somebody said he'll go down as the greatest Eagles receiver of all time. There haven't been a lot of them, but Carmichael, quick, Deshawn? Carol Owens? Who? Owens, T.O. Oh, T.O.

I thought you said Carol Owens. I'm like, who? Yeah, T.O. obviously would be a part of that conversation. But I wonder if the Rams kind of looked at it and said, what are we getting here? with this guy? What if, you know, one year with Stafford's great, Stafford gives it up and then he's a nightmare for our young quarterback in year two or year three? I don't know. I mean, the Patriots have a really interesting team, no doubt about it. And they've got other players, too, on offense. Miles Garrett, though, Tommy. I think I said this after the trade broke yesterday before I did the show

last night. I'm like, there's no way Cleveland does this trade if it's two first rounders versus Jared Verse and a first rounder. And Andrew Barry today in talking about the trade said, no chance they would have done the trade unless the Rams included Jared Verse in the deal. And that's where you look at it and you're like, Jared Verse is already really good two years into his career, and he's 24 or 25 years old. And I think the Browns, Miles Garrett, this is going to go down as one of the biggest trades in NFL history, certainly the biggest for a defensive player. I saw Fox Sports rank it number two behind the Herschel Walker trade in terms of the biggest

trades in NFL history. I don't know if I'd go that far. Certainly, you know, in contention, I would submit to you that it's the biggest trade for defensive player in NFL history. And I think the Rams, certainly in the short term, have a player on their team that can literally dominate like no one can defensively. Change the outcome of the game.

But Verse is going to be really good, and he was really good with the Rams too. So I think Cleveland did very well with the deal, too. I think they did very well. What did you think of that trip? I know it's Cleveland. They'll fuck it up. You know?

They may have done well, but they'll screw it up. Yeah. What do you think, Miles Garrett is thinking? Yesterday I was in Cleveland. Today I'm in LA. Yeah, he wrote a really nice note to the Cleveland fan base. Players do that all the time now, and they're usually... Well, I know that, but I would fall in love with Cleveland Brown fans, too.

Yes. I played for the brain. You know what? great fan base. Yes. But Cleveland to L.A., man. Yeah. You don't, there's not that's much.

I can't think of a further distance in the NFL. Yeah. Cleveland, maybe the Jets to L.A. That probably would be the... But you're still in New York at least. Yeah, that's true. Right. If you're talking about location, I'm talking about franchises and teams.

I'm talking about the whole Encelon. The whole entic... Yeah, that's... That may be the one. Cleveland to L.A. I mean, what else would be comparable?

Charlotte to L.A. Is L.A.? The premium destination? Whether it's the Chargers or the Rams? I think it's because of their team. Yeah. as much as anything.

Like, you know, it's like Miami, South Beach would be normally except a dolphin or a mess. You're not going to win there. I also read something about the Miles Garrett trade that Les Need and Sean McVeigh and everybody in L.A., they were so persistent with this that the Browns did not want to trade Miles Garrett. And as Andrew Barry said today, would not have traded him if verse weren't included. in the deal. But they apparently just started watching Miles Garrett from his record setting

23 sacks season from last year. And they said, no matter what you think of it, it was basically 10 times better than anything that a stat line showed. I think it was 90% of his snacks. Sacks came on a four-man rush, where he was double-teamed on more than 50% of his sacks with four-man rush. It's not like they had to generate any sort of. Look, if you've watched Cleveland the last few years, that's been a great defensive team. And people say, well, what's he going to provide in wins? He didn't elevate Cleveland.

You know, whatever Cleveland's been, they would have been much worse without him. It's just the bottom line is quarterback's the position that really impacts winning and losing. And when you have a bad quarterback, it doesn't matter that you've had the best defensive player of his generation on your team. It's not going to amount too much.

Although they did go 11 and 5 in 2023 with Joe Flacco at quarterback, 11 and 6, and make the playoffs. But apparently, I think Schefter reported this. It may have been somebody else that they turned on the tape and they knew how great he was, but they essentially said that may have been the greatest season by a defensive player ever considering the circumstances. like they didn't have an offense, they couldn't score, they, you know, they did, he was double-teamed over and over again, sometimes double-teamed with a third chip, and he ended up setting the record for sacks. He's a special player, man. He really is. I've been in love with him for a few years now, and when you watch him, he just really impacts the game. Look, the

Rams went from plus 850 to plus 600 to win the Super Bowl. You never see odds change like that for a defensive player, ever. But we're going to get a chance to see the Rams because they are on national television in prime time seven times, including four times in the first five weeks. All right. You want to talk about my trip? Because you haven't asked me about it yet. but you said you wanted to ask me about it.

You apparently attended a wedding, and I want to get your thoughts on the Nats continuing to. They lost last night, but what an impressive 61 game start. We got a lot to get to. We will start to do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, it's great to have Quince back as a sponsor of the podcast this week. I'm a big fan of Quince. You guys know that I just got back from Europe, took a vacation,

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86690 Nation, windownation.com. All right, we are going to get to whatever Tommy wants to know about my Italy trip. Tommy got into some Twitter battle with Fran Frasilla, college basketball analyst. I want to hear about that. But I was recording the podcast, Tommy, yesterday here in studio, with the Francis Tiafo Matteo Arnauldi match going on from the French Open. And I think the thing that I said about it was that Tiafo had blown a big lead in the fourth set and they were late in the fourth set.

And I finished recording the podcast and I sat here for the next, nearly it seemed like, hour and a half, hour and 45 minutes and watched the rest of the match. The match ended up being won by this Italian Mateo Arnaldi in five sets, 766673-6-76-6-4 in a match that ended at 1 a.m. Paris time Tuesday morning. And it lasted five hours and 26 minutes. The second longest match in the history of the French Open. And Tiafo lost, and I'm a big Francis Tiafo. fan. He came, his story is a phenomenal story. I'll tell you who's written a lot about Francis

Tiafo over the years, although she's not doing it anymore. But Liz Clark was like the first one to start writing about this 13, 14, 15 year old phenom out of the college park tennis facility that they built now, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago. His father, you know, emigrated to the United States was a custodian at this facility in Francis Tiafo, and they were living at times in the facility, and Tiafo picks up a racket. He's got tremendous talent, and he turns into a top 20 player in the world. The best he's ever done, I think was the semifinals at the U.S. Open a few years back. But the fields opened up so much that anybody could win this thing, and I was really rooting for Tiafo to make it to the quarterfinals.

He ended up blowing a two-service break lead in the fourth set and losing in the fifth set. What I wanted to say about it, though, is like I used to be a big tennis fan and I'm not so much anymore. But I'll tell you this, Tommy, there is something about this sport when you are watching a match like the one I was watching in here last night. It happens every year at the Open or at Wimbledon or in Paris. usually Paris because the surface is slower and so the points are longer. Five hours and 26 minutes is a true test of physical and mental will. Like you'd rarely see in sports. Maybe you're going to laugh at this because it's tennis.

But over the years, you've seen some of these matches at the U.S. Open in Flushing Meadows or at Roland Garros in Paris or even at Wimbledon, you know, these epic men's five-set matches. It can't happen in the women's, you know, matches because they're best of three. So the best you can do is maybe a two and a half, you know, three hour match maybe. And we've seen these over the years. And last night was another one of them where it's like both players look like they're about to keel over. I mean, you know, Arnaldi at one point was just barely able to get back to the service line. And then all of a sudden he's down and out.

and then he takes over the momentum. Then Tiafo fights back. It was great sports theater, no matter if you're a tennis fan or not. It's one of the things I loved about that sport. You'd get into one of those late-night U.S. Open matches with Agassie or Sampras and it's lasting four plus hours. McEnroe, I think, has a win over Matt's Volander in the Davis Cup, which was the longest match I think ever played time-wise.

It was six hours, over six hours. But I don't know. I found it incredibly entertaining, disappointing because Tiafo lost. But man, that sport really produces some of these moments where, you know, there's no sub that you can go to the bench to put in. You know, you've got to do it on your own. And a lot of times guys don't make it. You know, they've got a default because they call.

cramp up. They can't stop the body cramps or whatever it is. It was pretty entertaining, though. One-on-one confrontations have a great potential to be traumatic, where it's one guy versus one guy. Boxing has produced so many of those. Yes. Where you're just like, yeah, I mean, the thrill in Manila, I mean, last night looked like tennis's version of the thrill in Manila, because the points were sensational, and both players really did not look well physically, you know, at the end. Yeah. All right. So, what do you want to know about my trip?

Where'd you go? We went to Milan for three days and Lake Como for five days, I guess, six days, whatever it was. I had never been to Lake Como before and it was one of the best trips we've ever taken. Where in Italy have you been? I forget. We went in 2019 for two weeks. We went to Rome. We went to Bari on the Adriatic Sea.

Then we went to the small win town called Tote in Umbria country. Okay. And then we went to Florence. Oh, that's right. We had a great trip. Yeah. I think this was my fourth trip to Italy. I think it was my fourth time and had never been to Lake Como.

I'm telling you, I couldn't recommend a place more than Lake Como. Everybody, and by the way, so many of the listeners of this podcast, you know, tweeted me, you know, here's what you want to do. Lake Como is the best trip. My wife and I have ever done. taken or the best trip we've ever taken. It really is spectacularly beautiful. I think I said yesterday, it almost looks like it's AI generated, but it's not. And everything about it was, I mean, from the food, a lot of wine, the, you know, the beauty on the water, the boating, all of that was spectacular. I don't do. I don't do.

vacations very well, long vacations very well. I just, we've talked about this over the years. I'm usually really happy to get back and get back into a routine. But at the end of this one, I could have done another three or four days very easily, very easily. And Milan is awesome too. I mean, Milan is obviously one of the fashion capitals of the world. My wife loved that aspect. We did go to the Duomo.

I had never been to the Duomo before. That was incredible. Did you see any celebrities in Lake Como? Like George Clooney? No. Yeah. Oh, we did see a celebrity. Hold on.

I'm going to give you his name. The hangout for celebrities. Oh, it is, no doubt. Yeah. Did not. So our last night there, eating dinner at a spot that was just unbelievable with the views, the food was great. and we're sitting, you know, there are eight of us on this trip, eight of us. My wife, me, my three sons, and their three girlfriends.

And it went well. I mean, no fighting, no punches thrown. Great. It was, yeah. And it, I mentioned this yesterday. It certainly had the potential to be combustible or explosive. But it wasn't. It was great.

So the last night, we're sitting at dinner. And I spot this guy. I'm like, God, who is that? And I said to my son, Ryan, I'm like, who is that guy? Like, he coaches in the NBA, and I can't pick him out. Like, I'm forgetting who he is. He either played in the NBA or he coached in the NBA. That's what I thought.

And then I see on the other side of the table, one of my other sons and his girlfriend talking about, you know, in point, like looking at, over in his direction. I'm like, do you guys know who he is? How would you know who he is? He's an NBA coach. No, he's not. He's not an NBA coach. He's the guy that was in that movie, The Holiday.

Have you ever seen the movie The Holiday? With Kate Winslet. I have not. It's definitely a little bit of a chick flick. Cameron Diaz, Kate Winslet, Jack Blacks in it, Jude Laws in it.

and this guy named Rufus Sewell is in it. He plays Kate Winslet's boyfriend that she's trying to get away from and she eventually leaves England to go to L.A. They switch houses. It's a great kind of holiday movie. I actually like the movie a lot, even though it is more of a chick flick for sure. I think it's a really well-done movie.

But this guy, Rufus Sewell, was in that movie. And then I'm like, oh, yeah. And he's been in a lot of movies. He's been in some television shows over the years. I can't sit here and give you his rundown of movies and or television shows. Because it's not like he's a big star. But I recognized him and everybody else did. And then on his way out of the restaurant with the woman

he was with, people were taking pictures with her. And the owner was, the owner of the restaurant was taking pictures with her. And their backs were to us at that point, so we did not identify who she was. But I think that's the only famous person we saw on the trip. Yeah. Did you look up Rufus Sewell when I was talking about him? No. Oh.

Okay. usually you why would I do that well usually if I mention a name and I you know say you'll look it up and say oh he was in or she was in but you didn't do that this time why would you do that I don't know why you would do that but you've done that many times uh oh it says here that in the television series John Adams which I loved Laura Linney was phenomenal Paul Giamatti phenomenal that he played Alexander Hamilton okay Did you ever watch John Adams, the HBO thing? No.

Should I? Oh, I thought it was phenomenal. This is 15 years ago, right? Every bit of it? That's okay. I'll bet you it's still available. Oh, yeah. It was so, so well done.

Giamati's great and everything. I like Laura Linney, too. I like her and everything. Me too. 100%. Yeah. So that's the famous person I saw. The trip was great.

Anything else? You haven't asked me anything other than did you see anybody famous? Well, it was pretty uneventful. You had a great time. There were no disasters. I got nothing left, buddy. You said before the show, I want to talk, and I want to hear a lot about the Italy trip. Well, you just heard about it.

Well, you only went to two places. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's not like you went all over the country. No, we did not. Yeah, like two places in eight days is plenty. I will say this, man. Italy would be one of those places that if you told me you have to move somewhere in the world and live there for, you know, two years. What would your answer me?

Mine would be Italy, but the Italian government no longer wants me. They don't? Because of why? Because before, and I've invested money in this, up until very recently, I had the heritage that qualified me for Italian citizenship. And then within the last six months, you know, they passed this law locking down the citizenship requirement. Okay. You just can't, your grandfather just can't, you know, be from Italy. Okay, so they made it much stricter.

I could still qualify, but as I understand it, I would have to take a language test. You're not about to do that at this point in your life. No, I can barely speak English, let alone Italian. Yeah. So, I mean, they pulled the rug out from on the ring. All right, but that aside, Italy would be your choice. Yes. Yeah, I think it would be mine, too.

In a close second. You know what? I think you just hit on my top, too. We're in agreement on this. Like, I would definitely, if I had to live abroad, I would definitely be totally fine living in Italy. Now, where in Italy? A lot of choices.

Rome, I mean, you're living in New York, and I love New York, but I like New York more than Rome. I like Rome. Been a few times now, and it's crazy, and it's fun, and I think if I were younger, I'd want to live in Rome. Florence is great. I've not been to the Amalfi Coast. I've heard that that is spectacular, and certainly, Very luxurious. I'll tell you, Milan's awesome and Lake Como's beautiful.

And Lake Como sits there with, you know, like you're literally looking at the Alps. You know, you're looking at the Italian and the Swiss Alps because you're right there at the Swiss border. And I would live there. And if I lived in Spain, I think I'd live in Madrid more than Barcelona. What about you? Well, Madrid more than Barcelona. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, haven't spent a month in a small mountain village outside of Madrid.

I think that's what I would prefer. Right. But you know what? At deep down in our soul, we're just DMVers. Yes, you are. I guess I've been here for, I have been here for 43 years. Yeah. So I guess I am.

Yeah, you are. And let me just say this. My wife would do it in a heartbeat. She would be gone tomorrow to live abroad for a few years. Me, not so much. I mean, again, the question was if you were forced to do it. And I would do it. And I think I would really enjoy it.

But at the same time, I much prefer living in the great old USA and in the Washington, DC area. So there you go. It's home. And it was nice to get home. Although for the first time and a long time on a vacation, I could have done another three or four days easily.

Okay. Tommy got into it on Twitter with somebody. Shocker. I want to hear about it. We'll do that next. All right, Tommy. Tell us about Shelley's. Shelly's backroom at 1331 F Street, Northwest.

It's a sophisticated place. Okay? with a sophisticated product of cigars, top-of-shelf drinks, and a great menu available, and you can find out all that stuff. You go to shelley's backroom.com. But on these commercials,

these reads that we do for shellies, we try to be sophisticated as well. And that includes giving you sometimes a history lesson of the great cigar products that Shelly's, It is known for. I mean, Shelley carries the cigar official in ato's top 25 cigars

that are available for purchase. Okay. And this weekend, I was in Binghamton, New York, for a wedding. Binghamton? Yeah. Okay.

Yes. Let me tell you something. Binghamton has seen its better days. Well, did they have better days? Yes, they did. And I'm going to tell you what some of them were. In the late 19th and the early 20th century, this was something I didn't know. Binghamton was the second largest cigar producer in the country.

Wow. Didn't know that. Trailing only New York. The city's industry used to generate up to 150 million cigars annually at its peak. How about that? By 1900, there were 70 cigar factories operating in Binghamton. One of them was called the whole Grumman Company. It employed about 300 people, and it was built in 1886. I was in that factory this weekend several times because now it's the Lost Dog Cafe,

which is a great bar in Binghamton. Okay. There was a pre-wedding party the night before, and then there was a post-wedding party after the wedding at the Lost Dog Cafe. And what made it my favorite cafe, besides the history of its cigar manufacturer, it was right across the street from the hotel. What I had to do was walk out the door and stumble across the street. So that's your history lesson about cigars.

Binghamton, New York, they could use 70 cigars factories these days in Binghamton. You know, Binghamton was one of those places that I had to go to pretty often. I figured. Figured as much. There was a supermarket chain called Giant Foods. It was not related to the giant here. It wasn't related to the Aholed group of giants, included Giant and Carlisle.

And, God, I'm trying to think, I remember the CEO, I want to say his name was Ackle or something like that, Akel or something like that. I'm looking it up now to see what happened to them. But I went to Binghamton a lot. Let me just say, you can have Binghamton. And I'm sure there's somebody, at least one person listening to this, that probably has some tie to Binghamton.

You know, I never liked sort of that approaching upstate New York, like the, you know, Syracuse, Rochester, you know, Utica, Binghamton, Ithaca, all those places. I just never, I just always found them depressing, especially if you were there during the wintertime, man. It was, it was bleak. But yeah, a giant foods, Binghamton, New York went there a ton. I'm looking right now just to see if they're still around. They're not still around. They were sold to Weiss Markets. Weiss markets you're familiar with because they're in Frederick, right?

Yes. Yes, very familiar with Weiss Market. Yeah. All right. Enough about that. Anyway, you can find out more about Shelley's at Shelley's back. com. AJ Brown, by the way,

has landed in Foxborough, is participating in an OTA day, and he said about being in New England, quote, I know this ain't heaven, but it's close to it. Closed quote. He must have hated Philadelphia

there at the end. Hated it. Man, this is a big year for Jalen Hertz. Big year for Jalen Hertz. Yeah, this is it. Absolutely. All right. Tell me about your Twitter battle.

I should probably look it up here because sometimes you don't give me the true story here. With Fran Frasilla, I'm a big fan of Fran Frasilla. I think he does a great job as a college basketball analyst on ESPN. He has been, by the way, correct me if I'm wrong, the international draft guy for years, the guy that's really had a real understanding of the. foreign players that are entering the NBA. But tell me what happened with you and Fran Fershilla on Twitter. Well, at one point, you know, after the Knicks disposed of the Cavaliers so easily in four

games, he went online and posted, and I don't follow him, but I just happened to run into it online and he posted his Knicks Mount Rushmore. Okay. Okay. And he said, quote, hate to take Willis off the Knicks Mount Rushmore, but it's Clyde, Patrick, Bernard, and Jalen. As in Brunson.

Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Fraser. Yes. Okay. Yes. So, I mean, let me just, I know where this is going. You don't take Willis Reed off the Knicks Mount Rushmore at all as long as Tommy's alive and survive it. So your response was?

Well, my response was, you know, I forget what I respond. Here it is. I have it. This, you retweeted Fran Frasilla's take and wrote, this is insane. So where did it go from there? Well, then I posted. I didn't even. deal with Willis, okay, because that's ridiculous. Yeah. But the whole notion that Bernard King and Jalen Brunson should be on this, I pointed out, Dave to Busher, two NBA championships, eight-time NBA All-Star, six-time, first-team, all-NBA

defensive team, named to both the 50th and the 75th NBA-N-A. all-time anniversary team. And then I said, are you a child? Oh, Jesus. Why'd you? Okay. He responded,

don't be a schmuck, Tom. Like you, I watched that team through its graces. Greatness. No reason to be condescending. I thought there was a very good reason to be condescending. With that kind of idiocy,

which he rescinded later on. He backed off. and put Willis back on. He did? I'm not seeing that. So he put Willis back on, and who did he take off? Jalen, I'm sure. Okay.

Well, my point is... You accomplished something. I would have put Dave to Busher ahead of both Bernard King and Jalen Brunson on there. And the Busher never gets talked about... Look, right now, and I'm really going to enjoy these NBA finals, because you and I have talked about the Knicks

and how different they played this year compared to what they played in the past. Yeah, in the postseason. You know, in the postseason with their ISO ball, you know, that we're not seeing that, per se, and there's a lot of discussion about finding the open man. Right. And this was Dave to Busher's style.

This was his whole game. I mean, when Dave to Busher got traded from the Detroit Pistons to the Knicks in 68, that was the missing piece. That changed everything for the Knicks. And Red Holsman, who was the coach for the Knicks, he was in charge of the defense. Dave to Busher was the coach of the offense on the floor. Okay. He was the guy who ran the Knicks offense.

I didn't know that. Yes. And the whole Knicks offense was predicated on the open man. Dave DeBuscher's biography about that 70 championship season is called the Open Man. So I'm enjoying the Knicks in the finals because there's a lot of resurrection of how great those Knicks teams were. Yeah, definitely. And the Busher in particular, because he gets overlooked. Yeah, I just think that in your response to Fran for sure,

Chilla, you know, this is insane. It's fine. Insane, by the way, Tommy with emphasis, all capitalized with an exclamation point. That's Tommy's first salvo to Fran Frasilla's taking Willis Reed off of the Knicks, Mount Rushmore, and in favor of Jalen Brunson. And then your second retweet of the take, Dave DeBusher, two-time NBA champion. Eight-time All-Star, six-time all-NBA defensive team named to both the 50th and the seven. Are you a child?

I mean, it's just so unnecessary. I don't think so. No, it is. It is. When you make your living as a basketball analyst and you post something so stupid. Okay. So ridiculous. You are a child.

Well, actually, you're saying that he's stupid. So you should have said, are you stupid, question mark? I think I did. But I reduced him even further by saying he had the intelligence of a child. Okay. Well, I think you would have been better off rather than sort of lowering yourself to the medium, that being Twitter, that being X, to saying, not only are you insane to keep Willis Reed off the Knicks Mount Rushmore, DeBusher should be there too, and then list DeBusher's accomplishments.

But who am I to advise you in the middle of a back and forth with Fran Frasilla on Twitter? Did you feel better when he took Willis off? Did you feel like you accomplished something? Well, let me ask you. Well, okay. Who is your first? favorite bullet? I think my favorite

bullet of all time was Elvin Hayes. I liked, I was a big E guy. A big E guy. Yes. He's one of the top four wizard bullets of all time, right? I think he's number one. You know, it's Wes Elvin. It's Wes Elvin. Whatever order you want to put him in, I'm fine. For me,

it would be Elvin 1, West 2. Right. Yeah. Okay. What if, somebody who made a living analyzing basketball, you know, said, I'm sorry, but Elvin Hayes is no longer on the list. We're putting, you know, the latest new flavor on there. What would your response see? Well, look, with my franchise, there are very few choices,

so it just wouldn't happen. It would not happen. There's no Jalen Brunson to move on the list. You know, I did move John Wall under that list. I have John Wall, you know, after Elvin West, Bobby Dandrich, I have John Wall is number four on the all-time combined Bullet Wizard list. I agree with that list. Okay. And I'm glad that you, I mean.

Some people think that Gil should be on that list before Wall. I don't believe that. And I think the only other case you could make is for Phil. But we're not talking about Baltimore. I don't include Baltimore. I don't include the options there. But, look, I would have. I've done this before.

I don't really do it much anymore, but when I see something that's so absurd, and you clearly thought it was so absurd, and the fact that it came from somebody who should know better really fired you up, I definitely would have been like, you know, what have you been smoking? The are you a child is so condescending to someone like Fran Frischilla? It was meant to be. Yeah, I understand that. I understand that.

I wanted to reduce his position to that of a romper room position. Romp a room. That's a good reference. It's a great reference. I barely remember romper room. That's pretty good. Yeah. I mean, romper room was followed by probably some cartoons and then, you know, probably some dead air for a few hours before you got to the local news at night.

I don't know. No, soap operas probably followed that. Okay. So let me ask you this. Is Wembe on the Spurs list of Mount Rushmore yet? No, not yet, obviously. But he's a pretty good bet to be on it. Don't you think? He is.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, he's, you know, obviously this. By, by the way, let me just do this real quickly. Tim Duncan, George Gervyn, David Robinson, and Genobly? Yes. Over Tony Parker? It'd be hard to keep Genobley off.

George Gervin. Now, that's where I would say to somebody, you've got to be a child because you're just are leaving off the ice man. Like, come on. I mean, I think Gervyn would certainly. Gervyn and Duncan are Givens. Robinson's a given. And then I guess it's Genoblee.

It's got to be Genobley. Parker or Genoblee. Yeah. If you say Parker, I'm not going to argue with you, but I would put Genoblee. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, would you, I talked about the,

I haven't told you this. Kara was not thrilled with me, but I stayed up and watched through my Peacock, you know, subscription. I watched start to finish games 3, 5, and 7, which started at 2.30 a.m. and ended at, you know, close to 5 a.m. Local time. I know.

I am, I was so into this. series before I left. And I'm telling you, Tommy, I know you're going to laugh at this. I don't know how much of it you watched or didn't watch. These, the intensity of that series was as high. Some of the play was so high level. I enjoyed it. I thought Chey Gilgis Alexander was absolutely brilliant in game seven. Brilliant in game seven. I was really rooting for Oklahoma City. Wemby was great. The bottom line was they just had a supporting cast that was just much better

with Jalen Williams out. The Spurs were better. They earned it. They deserved it. Did you watch or not? I'm assuming you. You did? Did you enjoy it?

Yes, very much. Okay. Although Shea Alexander, I mean, you know, he's taken a real beating. I know. Because of the five. No, that's happened for the last couple years. I know, but now there's actually a game that's out now that people play based on his flopping. Yeah, look, nobody's bit, nobody was a bigger flopper than LeBron for all those years.

I mean, I, I, Shade Gilgis Alexander's style of play is, is inviting of contact and of, I mean, he's, he's crafty. Look, there's some flopping there. There's flopping in that sport just like there's always been flopping in that sport. His performance in Game 7, though, I hope for those that actually said things like he's actually not that good. I mean, you can't watch Game 7 and think he's anything than, you know, brilliant as a basketball player. He was literally targeted with double team after double team and had no support. I ripped Chad Holmgren on the show yesterday. I don't think I've ever seen a more feeble game seven performance by a supposed star player.

I mean, I don't know how he comes back from that. I don't know how you're going to be able to laundry his undergarments from that game. He really soiled himself beyond the pale. I've never seen a player look more frightened with the best. basketball game at that level than Holmgren was. I think they probably would have won the series with Jalen Williams healthy for this series, but I don't know that to be true because the spurs were great and just had more. I mean, when Binyama was really good in the series, but never approached his game one

the rest of the way. It was all of the others that really stepped up and played great. So who do you like? I mean, let me get your finals pick on today's show because the finals start tomorrow night. It's hard to pick against Wembe. I know the Knicks have a lot of momentum, but I just don't see them being able to stop them. I like San Antonio and six. I'll make my official pick tomorrow, but I don't feel as confident as I did a week and a half ago,

week ago when I said that, you know, the winner of the Oklahoma City San Antonio Series is obviously going to win the NBA championship. I mean, I was wrong about Oklahoma City. I mentioned, Tommy, do you know when they tip it up tomorrow night, it will have been 41 days since the Knicks' last loss. 41 days since they lost game three of the first round series. to the Hawks by one point. They've won 11 straight playoff games by an average of 23.8 points per game.

I mean, it's one of the great runs and one of the most dominant runs we've ever seen in the postseason, this 11 game stretch. They had the overtime win by 11 points against

Cleveland. But They had just every other game's been pure domination. I mean, they've been great. I don't know how you go into a final series and say the team that has had this kind of a run and hasn't lost in 41 days has no chance. I give them a chance. I feel differently.

I give them a chance to win the series. And I'd be surprised at this point if they don't win a couple of games minimum. My bookie right now, yesterday San Antonio was a minus 204 favorite. Now they're minus 197. You get plus 159 on the Knicks if you want to take the underdog. The spurs are five-point favorites tomorrow night in game one. And yeah, I mean, let me just say this. The best odds, or let me just say the shortest odds for,

the amount of games that will be played in this series is seven. So the favorite is a seven-game series at plus 3-10. Wow. The NBA could use the seven-game series in the final. This is going to be a very, very anticipated and I think highly watched NBA finals. Don't you think so? I agree with you. I agree.

You know, there were a couple of interactions. actions over in Italy with people, one guy in particular who just kept peppering me with questions about the NBA finals and the NBA. The NBA is truly a global sport. And Wembenyama, I mean, right now in this country, Wembenyama and Shohey Otani are probably the two best team sport players. And neither one of them is American. born. I don't, I don't care. I couldn't care less.

All right. I wanted to get your thoughts on the Nats. We'll do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show is brought to you by MyBooky. MyBooky will have everything you need for World Cup action. Betting soccer is actually pretty fun. You can go to MyBooky.com or MyBooky and if you do that for the World Cup or the NBA finals or for anything else, use my promo code,

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DC Reload is the promo code. All right, Tommy. the Nats did lose last night to the Marlins who had lost five in a row heading into that. But I talked briefly yesterday about them getting to 31 and 29 through 60 games. And really one of the more surprising seasons so far in the big leagues, I mean, is there a team that's been more surprising than the Nats in terms of what the expectations were before the season began? No, I don't think so. Yeah.

I mean, people thought this team was going to wind up losing 100 games. Yeah. So? No, I think they've been a big, you know what's interesting, though? What? And I know people are going to scoff at this. But this is the vision in a way that Mike Rizzo had for last year's team. When Mike Rizzo was going into last season, he thought that that group of young players were ready to take a lead.

and compete and maybe win 80 plus games in a year. This was why he, now, what he wanted to do, and what Paul Tavani have done are two different paths. Mike wanted to add a couple of big veteran, two veteran bats to that lineup, and at least one, you know, good veteran starting pitcher. In other words, to propel them,

he thought that they were ready to make, this move, but they required a free agent investment to do so. Well, the learners said no. You know, they wound up bargain basement shopping, and everything they decided they did last year turn the shit. Their big free agent acquisition, pitcher Michael Sorroko was a disaster, 3 and 8 with a 487 ERA. You know, they had injuries with Kuiper Ruiz.

They had injuries with Luis Garcia. This time, James Woods went into the second half slump. Their pitching was a disaster later. Trevor Williams, who had been their best pitcher the year before, was 3 and 10, and then missed most of the season because of injury. so a lot went wrong for them last year. Now, to Paul Tobani's credit, he didn't go into the free agent market.

Well, one thing, because the learners weren't going to let him, and he recognized that. But I don't think, based on what he's building here, I don't think he was interested in that. Look, I think Paul Tobani is probably a little surprised at how good they're playing. Yeah, they have to be a little bit surprised, right? Yeah. But he's.

building some, he's building a culture. And he's doing a great job of it. He's building a culture. He brought in all these young coaches with not much major league experience but with a lot of energy and speaking the new age language

of, you know, of statistics. And they've had a big impact on this group of young players. His pitching decisions, like Mike last year, his pitching decisions have worked out great. He brought in two pre-agent pitchers, Forrest Griffin and Zach Lattel, they brought in.

These were their two big pre-agent pitchers. And when I mean, they were like, like, you know, $5 million, I think $4,000, $6 million in that range, one-year deals. Well, Forrest Griffin is like six and two with an ERA of 376. and Zach Patel has been, you know, after a rough start, has turned things around, and it's now five and four. So they're getting great pitching

that has really propelled them from just being under 500 to over 500. Well, we're pitching. Okay. So is it pitching at a level? Because this was something, let's just say, a month ago that was still an issue. Obviously, the bullpen's still an issue.

do you think it's good enough, ascending enough for us to be having the conversation in another 61 games that they're in the hunt for a wild card spot entering September? Okay, well, those are two different conversations. Well, I don't think they'll be in that neighborhood come the trading deadline at the end of July. but if they are, they can't be sellers. You have to go for it. Can they be buyers? They have to be buyers.

Well, they're not going to be because the learners own the team, right? I know that. Well, you know, maybe the pressure, maybe the momentum of being three or four games out of the wild card at the end of July will be enough to force them to make a decision. Look, if they're not going to trade guys like Griffin and Lattel to, you know, guys who are on one-year deals to other teams to get prospects, if they're not going to be sellers, then they have to be buyers. You know, either one or the other, I think.

So I think if, look, you only have so many opportunities to get into the playoffs. If they have the opportunity, I think they have to take it. No doubt. I mean, we've had six years of irrelevant baseball by the time we've gotten to the middle of the summer. Yeah. And one of those years would be. But then the damage, you're seeing the damage. The Natch is playing great. I know. I know. And I think back to that stretch between 2012 and 2019, where they went to the postseason five times in eight years. And it's like, you know, we would sit here, even understanding. where the Nat sort of rank on the totem pole of importance in this town. And we were into it, you know, in August, September, and certainly when we got to October.

And those were exciting games and exciting series to be a part of. And if in 61 games, they're 62 and 60, and by the way, that would leave, what, 122, that would leave 40 games left. So we're talking about, you know, late August, early September at that point. I mean, that's all you can hope for now, because 61 games is not a tiny sample size anymore. No, no.

You know, again, it was what Mike wanted to do last year, but it wasn't able to. Paul Tobani, isn't relying on that, is taking a whole new path on counting on the development of these young players and bringing in coaches to help with their development. film and it's been immensely successful in that. And Blake Butera, with no Major League experience, has done a remarkable job as a manager.

Never seems overwhelmed. Another one with Miami tonight. And, you know, this is, I mean, they played three really good teams in a row and won all three of those series. They took two of three from Atlanta on the road with great pitching performance. They took two or three from Cleveland, and they took two of three from San Diego, and now they've got these three games at home with the Marlins. It would be nice if they could get two wins here entering a West Coast swing against Arizona and San Francisco.

I wanted to finish up the show with this. Russell Wilson isn't calling it a retirement where he is more likely than not to take this gig with CBS Sports's NFL Today show. but if it is it for Russell Wilson, you know, I've seen a lot of the, you know, back and forth as to whether or not Russell Wilson is a Hall of Fame quarterback. I don't think there's any question that he's a Hall of Fame quarterback. And I read a really good story by a guy. I actually

like Frank Schwab. He's a good radio guest, too. He writes for Yahoo Sports. By the way, I saw your, when I was just looking up your Fran for Shilla tweets. I saw that you tweeted about Charles Robinson. He got let go by, oh my God, he has been one of my favorites to read, too. One of my favorites. Absolutely. And I've had him on the show a few times.

He's kind of elusive sometimes in trying to get in touch with him to have on the show, but he's been on a few times, and he's excellent. Anyway, I digress. Schwab basically, I think, nailed it. And he said, Russell Wilson's had one of those strange. careers in that the first 10 years of his career in Seattle, if he retired after Seattle in 2021, and there was no reason for him to do that when he got traded to Denver, he was still considered to be a high-level quarterback, and he was 33 years old. But there's no discussion.

If he retires after those 10 seasons in Seattle, he's a first ballot hall of famer. He made the Pro Bowl in nine of his 10 seasons in Seattle, and as Schwab wrote, sometimes the Pro Bowl is totally misleading, but he deserved every single one of them. Like there was no debate that he was one of the best NFC quarterbacks. He wrote that in NFL history, there are 12 quarterbacks who made nine Pro Bowls.

Every one of the other 11 are either in the Hall of Fame or will be, when they're eligible, Brady Manning, Breeze, and Rogers are the four that are not eligible for the Hall of Fame yet, but will be, obviously, and they'll all be in the Hall of Fame. Russell Wilson is top 10 in both career fourth quarter comebacks and career game winning drives. His record... I think he's a Hall of Famer. I don't think there's any doubt. But Schwab's point is because after the trade in Denver, the two years in Denver, the year in Pittsburgh, and even last year with the Giants and the few games that he played in, were disastrous. Although I got to tell you, I actually thought there were a couple of games in Denver that he played pretty well in.

And he actually made the Pro Bowl technically the year he was in Pittsburgh. You only played 11 games. But I'm not a big Russell Wilson personality fan. You know, when he got traded, remember, to Denver, there was the big piece that ESPN.com wrote that really was a big reveal on what a diva he was in Seattle. It really was amazing to find that out about a guy. I mean, talk about sometimes you really don't know. And he brought that diva act to Denver briefly, and Sean Payton couldn't stand the dude.

I mean, could not stand Russell Wilson. And so there's a lot about him, and we'll find out what kind of analyst he becomes. But in terms of a player, remember, he got drafted in 2012 in the third round by Seattle. When Mike Shanahan told both of us, after they picked Robert, he was looking at Russell Wilson as their fourth round pick. And had he made it to the fourth round, he would have picked Russell Wilson, not Kirk Cousins. They loved cousins too, but he

loved Wilson more. And those were the two quarterbacks that basically that year, I mean, then Kaepernick came later, but it's like they went full dual threat quarterbacking in the NFL. It was crazy to watch that year. And

Wilson, you know, Cooley was never a big fan of Wilson as a passer. He said he's too short. You can see. He can't see. And it's true. Russell Wilson's best plays were never made in the pocket. They were always made outside of the pocket. But I don't know. To me, Russell Wilson had a Hall of Fame career just in Seattle. Can you go backwards and have the Hall of Fame taken away from you for the final four years of your career in different places? I guess you can. They count too. I think you can. Yeah. I don't know.

I see him as a Hall of Fame quarterback. He was a clutch quarterback in Seattle, and people can say those teams were great defensively. They ran the ball. All those things are true, but they were also contending for Super Bowls because of Russell Wilson's play. And Russell Wilson's clutch gene in a lot of those games.

Okay. You got anything else? I got nothing else for you, boss. Good to have you back. Well, it's good to be back with you. I'll be back tomorrow. without Tommy. Tommy will be back on Thursday.