The Kevin Sheehan Show - Pats-Commanders + Terry Exhaustion?

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

Kevin opened with whether or not fans are getting exhausted with the Terry-Commanders contract negotiation and who that favors. Mitch Tischler/Beltway Pod jumped on from Foxboro with his observations of the Skins-Pats joint practice. John Ourand/Puck News was a guest to describe the ESPN-NFL Network deal and whether or not it might revive Washington's old name (Redskins).  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today. Mitch Tishler, who was on with us a few weeks ago, was up in Foxborough for the joint practice between Washington and New England this morning.

He'll join us with his observations in the next segment. And then John Orand, our good friend, who covers sports business and sports media for puck news. he'll jump on and we'll talk about this NFL network ESPN deal. Also, because I've already recorded the interview with John, for those of you who care, which is many of you, the conversation did get into the name. Why? Because there's probably some Trump regulatory approval necessary for this NFL network ESPN

deal to go through. John Orand in the final segment today. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation, windonation.com if you're looking for new windows. This from Remy via email. Remy writes, Kevin, on Terry, go ahead and F around and find out.

Tell me all you want about his age, his place on the top 10 wide receiver list. But if the team Fs around any longer, they'll find out the truth. The truth being, he was a valuable piece of their 2024 puzzle and is poised to be even more valuable in 2025. He's the, in capital letters, he writes the T-H-E-Caps. He's the deep threat that allowed the offense to be explosive last year. Without it, the offense may have been efficient, but it wouldn't have been explosive.

He led the league in contested catches, and he was clutch. I'm not arguing that he's Justin Jefferson, but he's the best we have, and it's too late to replace him for a season that you've called the first Super Bowl window season in forever. This is getting ridiculous. Sometimes you have to overpay talent, especially when you have a chance, to land a big fish. The big fish is waiting in Santa Clara waters. Santa Clara, the home of the 49ers,

is where the Super Bowl will be played in February of 2026. A good email. Remy, I appreciate that, the email. You know, we've got to keep this conversation in the territory of reality, in the realm of reality. Go ahead and F around and find out. Find out what?

He's not going anywhere. He's going to play this year. He has to play this year. That's part of the reason the team doesn't have to worry about finding out. Not this year. He's under contract. He's all of the things, Remy, you described him to be, and the team needs him because of those things.

I agree. but they have him. He signed a three-year extension back in the summer of 2022, and it extends through the upcoming season. He's under contract. It is not wrong that he wants a new contract, and it's certainly not wrong that the team is willing to discuss and has been willing to discuss a new contract with Terry.

It benefits them to sign him to an extension right now. I say it benefits them. I think they're in a win-win situation in that if they don't get him signed, they're in that pay-as-you-go situation that I described yesterday in the day before where they don't have to come out of pocket 50 to 60 million. They'll end up paying less an average annual for the next two years, assuming they'd use the franchise tag next year. And then they'd have to worry about 2027.

You know what? Maybe they're not that worried about 2027, his age 30, 32 season. But the bottom line here is they don't have to find out about anything. They're not effing around. He's under contract. This from P. Parker, P. Parker writes, Sheen, I'm exhausted. Enough about Terry. We have Jaden. That's all we need. This from Woody. Woody writes, Kevin, I'm tired of Terry talk. By the way, that's a bit of a theme. team starter there. Pete Parker saying I'm exhausted. Woody's saying I'm tired of Terry talk. But I do have Woody writes, I do have one question for you. How many games would the team have

won if Terry wasn't around last year? I've got nine and no playoffs. Yeah, I have 11 and playoffs. They would have been right where they were. Now, maybe they wouldn't have won two road playoff games because he played very well in the postseason, and they needed him in the postseason. I'm really, I think this is an area in which I may be out on a limb with just a few of you. I think he matters, and I think he matters a lot, but I don't think he's the difference between playoff contention and playoffs versus no playoffs.

I've heard people even in the national media saying Washington wouldn't have been a playoff team last year without Terry McClearn. Yes, they would have been. They absolutely would have been. He was big time for them. He was. He had 82 catches for the season, just over a thousand yards. He had 13 touchdowns, second in the league, and he is what, you know, the first emailer, Remy wrote. He is the difference between their deep explosive opportunities. I do agree with that to a certain degree, that he is a big part of why they were explosive, especially on the deep ball. Jaden was explosive as a playmaker, you know, as a runner, as a creator, et cetera. But Terry was their best deep ball catcher and deep ball route runner, understood.

And he's a terrific contested catch guy, and he was clutch. There's no doubt about it. Look at the end of that second Dallas game. That catch on the sidelines than making a couple of moves and taking it 86 yards for a touchdown. But I cannot get to, you know, three less wins in no playoffs, not with the way the quarterback played. With that said, look, they were bad defensively. They had to stay on the field, and it was Cliff, it was Jaden. It was Jaden one, it was probably Cliff 2 in his scheme and his scheme and his field.

play calling, and it was probably Terry three. You know, in terms of why they had such great drive success and why they were able to keep the football and score with the football. But I can't get to three games less, man. I can get to a game less. I really can. Last year, because of all the close games, maybe two. But as I look at, you know, it going forward,

I mean, I don't need to look at it going forward as if Terry's not going to be here. He's going to be here. I thought it was interesting that both P. Parker and Woody said that they are tired. They're exhausted. Because Polly, at the end of the radio show today, today was one of those days. Actually, this Terry discussion, it is a bit tiring, but it's also very provocative. and it's very, there's strong opinions both ways on this. Although it's tilting in the direction of the team, and I'll get to that in a moment.

But Pauley, one of my favorite callers from down in the Tidewater area, and he calls the show all the time. And this is Hale to the W, Polly. Polly said that people are getting tired of it, which is why the results of my Twitter poll today are a bit, you know, lopsided. The Twitter poll that I did today at Kevin She and D.C., you can still vote, is we did this two weeks ago, but now after a holdout, a hold in, and a trade request, you know, where are you now? Whose side are you on? Team Terry or team front office? Two weeks ago when I did it, it was 50-50. That was surprising to me. Apparently not to but it was surprising to me, I thought it would be more tilted in Terry's favor.

But as I am recording this podcast right now, roughly 1,500 votes in, and it's 70.5% team front office, 29.5% team Terry. This speaks to the email that we got yesterday from that guy Tommy, who said that people are starting to, you know, criticize, Terry, it's tilted in the teams, you know, in terms of the way the fans are viewing this situation. Yeah, you know, when players, when you get to a holdout, a hold in, and a trade request, it's going to tilt back in the favor of the team a little bit. But, man, basically 70-30?

Wow. You know, that's 71-29. I'm just looking at it. It's changing, as I am mentioning it. It's basically 71-29 right now, you know, in favor of front office. That's where I am. But I want both to be successful in this. I want Terry to get a deal that he feels good about.

And I want the team to give him a deal that they feel good about. And I want it to happen sooner rather than later because I don't want, you know, three days before the giant game, you know, five days or whatever, the Wednesday, insolns. stall, the first real practice, Terry's out there and he's going to play Sunday against the Giants, and that's the first time that he's out there practicing as a no longer hold in, but now he's getting ready for the opener. Look, I guess there is a small chance he holds out games, and I've discussed the last two days that, you know, there's only one way Terry can gain any leverage in this negotiation, and that is for the team to realize that they have nothing at wide receiver.

And I just don't see them learning that or really feeling strongly about that until a real game is played. Now, injuries could certainly change that conversation. If they were decimated at wide receiver and they got really desperate, it would certainly help Terry's cause. But I don't think you'll see Terry gain any leverage unless he holds out a regular season game, and I don't think he's going to do that. I just don't think he's going to

throw away money and throw away what needs to be a big year for him, especially if he's playing on the final year of his deal. Because if he wants more, you know, FU money, another FU contract, you know, down the road

a year later, he's got to perform in a major way. If he wants the franchise tag, look, the franchise tag's no guarantee if he plays on this final year of his deal. What if he does show signs for the first time in his career of, you know, a little bit of age. Is the team going to pay him $28.6 million in 2026? But anyway, Pauley basically suggested that the results 7129. And I took calls for a lot of the show today, and they definitely weren't, you know,

the same as the Twitter results. It was probably more 50-50 or maybe slightly. higher Terry, but that is such a small sampling compared to 1,500 votes and counting on, you know, on a Twitter poll, ex-pull. But Pauley basically said, this is something that is a result of fan fatigue over the Terry situation. And they just want it to end. And for it to end, Terry's probably going to have to give a little bit, or at least that's the perception. I think there's some truth in that. And so P. Parker and Woody, you know, exhausted, tired of Terry talk, look, it's still a very hot topic, and it's a hot topic around the league. We're not going to stop talking about this, but I do get the exhaustion of let's get it over with, let's end it,

let's get him in. I don't, I want to see him participate in a significant part of camp. I think that that's important. We've seen a lot of these long, long holdouts or hold-ins, by the time something gets done or by the time the resolution is nothing's going to get done, so you've got to put your big boy pants on and get ready to play a regular season game, that the lack of work can cost a player both in physical health and in cohesion with his quarterback. And in this case, there's another, you know, weapon that he hasn't played with in Debo Samuel. By the way, I went back and looked at something that I just thought was interesting from this perspective. It's an Adam Peters perspective,

but if you go back to that first season in which the 49ers, you know, were unbelievable and went to the Super Bowl, 2019, that was the Super Bowl, they lost to Kansas City, 31 to 20 when they had the lead, but they lost the lead. Do you know that team who, the receivers on that team were for the 49ers. Debo Samuel and Kendrick Bourne. And then they had a Manuel Sanders. You know, could this be a case of, look, we want you, but we know where your value is.

We know how old you are. But we also, or in Adam Peters case, I also, you know, was part of a team that went to a Super Bowl with just Debo. Now, that was a much younger Debo. it was, but Kendrick Bourne and Emmanuel Sanders were our other two backs. Now, like the conversation about how Pat Mahomes had no receivers, got to the Super Bowl last year, Josh Allen didn't have great receivers last year, got to the AFC title game, and in this San Francisco example of them not having, you know, any true stretch-the-field kind of guys.

They are big-time guys at wide receiver. You know, the Chiefs, the Bills, and the 49ers of 2019, really good defense. teams. So, and then in the case of the 2019 49ers, as has been the case with all of their really good teams, they ran the crap out of the football. You know, that postseason, it was Rahim Mostard. Remember, he had 220 yards in the NFC championship win over Green Bay at home. 220 he had that year in the NFC championship game. When I went back and looked at that postseason for them, I did not remember Rahim Moster having that kind of a postseason. But he was outstanding throughout the regular season, not dominant, but he really came on in the

postseason. But could some of that, look, there's a lot working behind the scenes in terms of the experiences in which Adam Peters has come from, Lance Newmark, Brandon Sophe. the three people most involved in this contract negotiation. The Detroit guys, I've given you the Amman Rae St. Brown perspective, you know, 16 months ago, 24 years old. Amon Ra, who most of the league believes is a better receiver than Terry McCorn. He's ranked a little bit higher.

He got basically 30 a year, 77 guaranteed, but 30 a year on average. But he was 24. And then you've got the Adam Peters, you know, background of, you know, getting to a Super Bowl without a truly great receiver. Debo was good that year. He was a young player. He was good. He was not, you know, he was a weapon. He's different than a wide receiver number one, as we know with the description of Debo. But, and then also just the style in which, you know, Adam Peters has come from in terms of negotiating contracts. So a lot of that is in play as well, I guess. Yeah, look, sometimes the exhaustion isn't just with fans.

Sometimes it ends up being a part of the player and the team. And in the case of the player, being a hold in and watching what's going on and seeing what he's missing out, and, you know, being with the guys, you know, at some point he's going to have the itch to get back in there. and maybe that's part of waiting it out on him. There was no new news on this necessarily, but yeah, that's kind of where we are. The preseason game, Friday night against the Patriots, it looks like it will be Josh Johnson and Sam Hartman at quarterback.

Jaden's not going to play in the game. Quinn said today that basically guys that take a lot of the work today will not play in the game. So that means the starters. And then Marcus Mariotta did not make the trip. He's actually hurting a little bit with a leg strain. So what we'll get is, you know, Josh Johnson at 39 years old Sam Hartman and a lot of backups on Friday night against the Patriots. By the way, the best tweet from the workout today, the joint practice, came from longtime NFL writer for the Boston Globe, Ben Volan. We've had Ben on the show before.

And he tweeted out, Jaden Daniels is absolutely surgical in 11 on 11. Never misses a read. All right. Mitch Tishler was there and witnessed the joint practice. He'll join us next after these words from a few of our sponsors. So guys, if you're starting to notice your hair thinning when you look in the join the club. You're not alone. Life gets busier and busier and you don't have much time to think about it or do something about it. That's why I'm going to help. I'm going to suggest Hymns.

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All right, joining me from Foxborough, where the team practiced with the Patriots earlier today. is Mitch Tishler. We had Mitch on a few weeks ago. Mitch, of course, with the Beltway football podcast with J.P. Finley, and he works for Monumental Sportsnet as well. You can follow Mitch on Twitter on X at Mitch underscore Tishler. So what happened today? What did you observe in this joint practice, which I've made the argument in past years, is probably the biggest reveal on-field we get more so than practices or preseason games. So tell us what you learned, if anything. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.

I think almost always these joint practices, you learn a lot more about things than you do in the preseason games, particularly because most of the starters aren't going to be playing in those games. So today, I think both offenses on both sides of the field, the Patriots offense and Washington's offense, probably won the day. For me, what I looked at was offensive line. I think that to me that's the most question marks on offense, you know, along with kind of that second receiver. And I thought Josh Connerley had a very good day today. The Patriots D-Line isn't the,

you know, the best D-Line in football. In fact, I think they were the worst D-Line of getting after the quarterback last year. But what I liked out of Connerley was you saw the speed and the quickness, but you also saw him thinking and being able to work through scenarios. So there are a couple, you know, tackle end twist that they were working on. Connerley passed them off beautifully and was able to get back to the outside and get to his guys over there.

You know, Harold Landry is one of the Patriots C-Ns. He's known for his speed at his quickness. And in both the one-on-one drills and the 11-on-11, Connerley held his own, which was great. And then on the other side of tackle, Larry Tunsel had one play in the one-on-one drills

where Bill Williams was coming. It was Russian kind of from the inside of Brown on the outside. And Larry Thompson just got one hand on him and nailed him to the ground. It was just a beautiful play for Malarmy. But him over on the left side is just such a difference maker for this offensive line, and quite frankly, from his offense as a whole, because he's able to just hold that down on his own. You don't have to worry about sending chips and doubles and all that out there. So today was a really good day

for the O line, and Jane and Daniels look crisp. Real quickly on the offensive line, do you think Connerley ends up being ready to go week one, or will it be Wiley or will it be sort of a platoon situation early in the season? Well, I don't know that I think the Brandon Coleman situation is something that we need to worry about for week one yet. However, because we are now in the second practice that Brandon Coleman didn't participate, you had Andrew Wiley working at left guard and Connerley started on the right side of tackle. I think if BC is ready to go, you're going to see a lot what we saw last year with kind of the rotation at tackle, probably starting with Wiley and then working Connerley in. But if they're in a situation where Wiley has to start at left guard, then Connerley will be your guy at right tackle.

So you mentioned Jaden Daniels. He looked sharp. Give us more on that. Elaborate. Why did he look sharp? Yeah, his first three 11-on-11 passes were just on the money. Decker's is becoming strong. such a security blanket for him. Ertz does such a good job of winning off the line of scrimmage, his quickness and the way he's able to use his big body to shield DBs and linebackers. He's impressive to watch, and Jaden isn't scared to throw him the ball,

even when guys are kind of hanging all over his back because he has that trust. He has that trust in him. And then when you kind of start looking down the field, there's a play where Devo Samuel was kind of getting doubled. He started on the right side, he was running a deep cross all the way across. And Jaden, you know, threw a ball to a point where, where basically it was DBO was going to catch it or not.

Ultimately, it was, you know, two yards overthrown. But what really stands out about Jaden is he very rarely puts the ball in peril. Even when he throws into a, quote, unquote, tight window, you see the ball put in a place where either his guy's going to get it or no one's going to get it. And it was evident today. He was using his eyes to manipulate safety pretty well. He was able to hit guys, you know, in the intermediate and the deep ball. he looked every bit ready to go, you know, week one. And I had no expectation that he was going to play on Friday night here in New England,

but I certainly after watching this practice, don't expect to see anything from him. Did you learn anything staying with the offense here in a moment? For a moment, did you learn anything about kind of the depth chart? I mean, we saw what they put out the other day, but anything stand out like, oh, he was in sooner. Maybe he's going to be more prominent when they're. get to the regular season or be given an opportunity to do that? You know, they were working guys in and out of the first team,

kind of how they normally do. Bill Merritt got a couple of first team reps in the second run of 11 on 11. But he didn't particularly stand out today. There wasn't, you know, much that I looked at him like, okay, he's, you know, really making a push there. I really think the big question for this offense is, in a non-Terry McLauran world, who steps up is that, you know, kind of second receiver on the outside. So let's talk about that. Go ahead. Who do you think it is?

To me, I think it's a lot of pressure on a kid, but I think Jalen Lane is the second best receiver probably on this roster. And I don't mean that to necessarily take a shot at a guy like Luke McAfrey, per se. Second best after Debo, you're counting. I mean, Terry's going to play. You agree with that. right? But you're just like for the rest of the camp and if he were to hold out in the opener, who would the number two be, you know, after Debo? That's

what you're describing, right? Yes, yes. You're going to say, Melterra McCorn in a tier of the row in Washington. And then below that, it's really, I think Jalen Lane and Luke McCaffrey are the two that are really, you know, kind of battling for that next set of reps.

And I think Jeline Lane just looks better than if he looks quicker in the quick game in terms of catching the ball, kind of in the in the flats and quick little pop passes and getting outfield. And then even in the intermediate route, you see Lane getting some separation. And that's something that Luke McCaffrey is struggling with a little here is that he's having a tough time when he lines up on the outside, kind of getting that separation.

Now, I think ultimately they look at him probably more as a slot type guy. And when Terry comes back and he moves in. I think, you know, he'll be able to juke some of the linebackers slash safetys that are going to be covering him there a little bit more than the ds that he's having to deal with now. But all we can talk about is what we're seeing. And Luke, I think, you know, I think Luke looks better as a slot guy. He's struggling a little on the outside right now. I mean, you didn't mention Noah Brown because he wasn't there today and he's been banged up. But he really was, you know, first half of the season, a bit of a go-to guy.

for Jaden. He was on track to have the best year of his career before the injury, and it was a serious one, very acute in that moment. What do you make of his role, assuming health, by the time we get to the opener against the Giants? Well, I think that's my thing with Noah Brown right now is you want to assume health, and they are playing it, you know, cautiously with him kind of one day off, practice one day on, but we haven't seen even on the days that he is practicing, do a lot in the 11-on-11 stuff. And then he didn't travel up here to New England,

along with, you know, some other folks who were dealing with other, you know, injuries. Noah Brown can be a nice weapon for this offense, but health has always been a question mark with him. And last year, he was great as an opposite, you know, Terry-type guy. But I think when you look at kind of where this offense is going to play out,

on the downs that you have, you know, two outside receivers and they're playing true receiver sets, I think you're looking at Debo and Terry, and then when they start getting gadgety with Debo, maybe that's where Noah Brown kind of slides in. But, you know, we're two weeks into camp. We're basically a month away from, you know, the first regular season game and the fact that we haven't seen Noah Brown practice in back-to-back practices or really get a ton of work in 11-on-11. I think you have to at least allow you. yourself to start questioning kind of where he is in his health, where he is, and his rehab. And, you know, we're trying to evaluate the guys that we're watching, you know, run these routes

on the field and the guys that we're going to see, you know, between the joint practices and Friday night. And it's tough when, when Noah is, you know, kind of in and out of practice the way that he is to really be overly confident that he's going to be ready week one necessarily. All right. You talked about the two offenses, you know, being the best unit. minutes out there. So what was wrong with Washington's defense against Drake May and company? Yeah. Mario Douglas, who I almost brought up earlier, but that's the guy that I wanted to bring up, was very, very shifty in the slot. And he did a really good job of getting open. Mikey Singer still had a pick in the two minutes at the two-minute drill at the end of practice.

But early on in 11-on-11, Douglas was making some catches left and right and was able to get a little bit of room on him. It was great watching Stefan Diggs work with Trey Amos out on the edge, because that's a guy who can really give Trey some good work out there. I thought there was, you know, there were some reps

that Trey looked at some that Stepan beat him on, but for the most part, I would say, you know, kind of 50-50. And Marshall and Lattimore, you know, had some ups and downs, I would say. For the most part, it was a solid practice for him. He was beat on one kind of deep ball over the top. But ultimately, I think, you know, when they were working those 11-on-11, Hunter Henry, their tight end in the middle of the field, is a problem.

I look at him a lot. If you look at Decker, just a great security blanket for Drake May out there. And I think he was, you know, drawing some extra attention in the middle of the field, kind of from the safety season. When you looked on the outside, you know, there were some opportunities out there. So I don't know. I think Washington's offense beat the Patriots defense by most. than the Patriots defense beat Washington's offense by the Patriots offense beat Washington's defense.

But overall, it was a pretty good day for both offenses. Do they look more stout up front? I know they're bigger up front. I think I talked to you about this a few weeks ago. Kinlau's size, Goldman's size, I mean, Duran's obviously a big dude. But, you know, it's early. This is, you know, all just observational. but you had a front row seat for the thing that matters, a joint practice.

What do they look like up front compared to last year? They look more disciplined up front, is what I would say. They seem to be rushing, you know, for years with Ron Rivera there, we heard about, you know, you have to rush in concert, you have to rush together, all these different things. That didn't always happen. Here, you're seeing the guys play the run to the past. So you see on the snap of the ball, they're, you know, setting an edge, reading what's happening,

and then going after the quarterback. Now, they didn't do situational football here where they're looking at third and long and whatnot. So there wasn't a lot of opportunity for the guys to pin their ear back, pin their ears back, and get after the quarterback. But they looked much more discipline up front. There weren't, you know, these big gaps, or either Ramandre Stevenson or Trayvon Henderson to run through.

And they looked, they looked, the linebackers did a really good job of filling gaps. I thought they look good against the run today. I thought they looked disciplined, which I think is an important piece of how they're going to be successful on this defense. I've heard that there is some excitement about what Johnny Newton might be this year. What have you seen and what did you see today? So I've seen and I've heard the excitement about Johnny Newton and I'm not excited about him per se. But I think you look at this defense as it currently stands,

and those guys, those defensive tackles, the guys in the middle of the defense, are certainly being asked more to play a, to hold up O linemen and allow linebackers to flow to the football. And so it's not going to be, it shouldn't be, I don't expect it to be as explosive of a defensive tackle tandem, you know, as maybe in the good years of John Allen and Durant Payne, that we saw. But he's been very quick. And one-on-one today, he had a great rip move right up

the middle and got a clean shot right through to what would have been the quarterback. Ultimately, he was a coach standing back there throwing the ball. But he looked strong and stout in the middle. And when he's had an opportunity to show off that quickness, we've seen it. All right. Special teams, Matt Gay apparently has been impressive in practices. How did he do today? He's looked, he's been, I would say, up and down in practices. He's looked good at times that it was disappointing the last practice we had in Washington. He had two situational game-winning field goal attempts.

He ended up missing both of them. Today he was, today he was solid. I think it's, you know, I think he looks like if he starts falling into a flow of missing some of these situational type kicks. It's going to be hard for me to imagine and not try to bring somebody into some competition. But, you know, you talk about the preseason games and how, you know, for a lot of the starters, they're not going to see time. It's one kind of small specific side of it.

But I think the kicking opportunities are going to be important. And one thing that he does do well is those little pooch kicks on the kickoff, which is something that we know Washington's special team where he has a love to do, particularly with the new rules with the ball out of those 35. Yeah, and more teams are going to do what we did last year, definitely. Exactly. So I think that's somewhere that he can separate himself. I'd like to see more consistency from him, but by no means I think we're in the same kind of dire kicking situation we were last year.

What did he get? Did he get $5 million for one year? I don't know off the top of my head, but that sounds about right. Yeah, because they didn't bring in anybody else, right? There's no other kicker in camp, correct? Correct. I mean, he's their guy. Yeah. Unless things go remarkably south, he's going to be their guy. And he's looked good enough to, you know, give himself the opportunity to, you know, to open the season. But I do think that these couple games, when they get in situational game, situational spot in the preseason, and he's stepping up to kick.

I think those are going to be important for him because that's a tough, that's a real tough thing to simulate when you're in practice the rush of a defense and guys get nasty that way. 4.3 million for one year. Basically all of it guaranteed, like 3.985 of it guaranteed. So anyway, all right, thanks for doing this. Really appreciate it, as always. Have a safe trip back. We'll talk soon. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. Mitch Tishler, everybody. John Oran will join me next. We'll talk about this ESPN NFL Network deal. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you get a chance to rate and review the show, especially on Apple and Spotify, it's a huge help for us. Rate us up to five stars if you think we deserve it. That really helps us out. Also, following this show on Apple and Spotify, just hit the plus button or the follow button. That is a tremendous help for us. And this time of years, we approach football season. It's big for us to get those ratings, reviews, and follows. So if you haven't done it yet and you can spare up to, you know, about 60 seconds to do it. It would be much appreciated.

Joining me right now is my friend John Orand from Puck News. John, for my money, is the best sports media and best sports business reporter and columnist and podcaster out there. His podcast is called The Varsity with John Orand. You can follow John on X on Twitter at Orand underscore puck. So I had to reach out to you this huge NFL network ESPN deal. It seems like there's a lot to it, so I'll just let you, you know, start with describing it because I think a lot of us don't really know why this happened and what the details are. Well, this is going to be the strangest conversation that we've had, Kevin, because there's so

many tentacles to this. I don't even know where to start. Tell me about the deal. It's kind of a crazy deal. A league is taking an equity interest. It's owning 10% of one of a network that carries its games. It's a fascinating deal. I don't have in front of me exactly what that 10% stake is worth. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask that, of course, yeah.

But in the billion, dollars, of course. I mean, it's way up there. And so let me just go through, actually, the motivations for doing this. And the NFL for four years, I think, has had its media networks up on the block, trying to sell them. And the main reason for the NFL doing this is because every time I come on, we talk. about the cable business, and it's imploding, and it's continuing to implode. And you've seen NFL network go from, you know, 70 million homes to, I think it's probably closer to 40 million

homes right now. And the NFL, the shield, it never wants to be associated with a declining property. And cable network, especially an independent cable network that's league-owned, is a declining property. And so they've been looking to unload that. I think it's a good deal for ESPN, but let's be perfectly honest about this. It's been on the block for four years. Every other media company has kicked the tires on it and sort of passed on it, even though the NFL is popular. It's the most popular genre, entertainment genre on television, by far, and on street. for that matter, and everybody still ended up passing on it.

What happened now is that ESPN in like two weeks or three weeks, they're going to launch a direct-to-consumer app, and so they need content for that. So now, like, if you buy that app for $30 a month, you're going to be able to have access to an NFL network program, and you're going to have access to other NFL content. You're going to have access to NFL plus. And through that, people are going to be able to subscribe to the NFL Red Zone channel on Sundays, all through the app. So the timing worked for ESPN because it's launching an app.

The timing worked for the NFL because it just wanted to get out of the declining business. And so that's sort of how we got to where we are. That's really interesting. I understand the cable part of it. I still think that the NFL network and the Red Zone in particular, at least intuitively, would have great value. And you're saying that multiple media groups kicked the tires and passed. ESPN's got plenty of content. Why did they decide to do this?

They decided to do this. I mean, the direct-to-consumer thing, I understand, but they have plenty of content. They have plenty of content, but you're going to be able to get that content anyway. They need more content in order to bring people over to that app. What Jimmy Patero, who is the head of ESPN, of course, what he has said is he wants the app to be the sports hub, so that if you want to watch a World Series, you should be able to come within the ESPN app

and, you know, pay $10 to unlock like the Fox-like widget And within that app to watch the World Series. That's the dream of this app, you know, five, ten years down the line. It's a Fox certainly right now where there's no way that would allow ESPN to, you know, to do that. And so this just gets a lot more content into the app. And it also puts ESPN arm in arm with the NFL, which is, you know, their business partners. They've always kind of been business partners, but now the NFL owns 10%.

And let me also just kind of say, because when I said it, I meant one thing, when you said it, it sounded much more stringent than I meant. All the other networks passed, they just weren't willing to pay what the NFL wanted. for this. I mean, I think everybody at the right price would have wanted to get it. But, you know, it's the basic fact is that they've been trying to sell this for the past four years. I mean, this was a straight 10% equity stake for the NFL network and the associated media assets, which includes Red Zone. And by the way, with the NFL network, that means more live NFL games for ESPN during the course of the season, correct?

Exactly, yeah. So ESPN got a couple of added games. NFL Network is going to, I think, keep it. It's a lot of games as well. I mean, ESPN got a lot of content out of this deal, and they already do have a lot of content, but they got even more out of this deal that will really, really, and more than content just the right to do a lot more NFL programming through the app as well. So I just think it's a pretty good deal for ESPN right now, despite what I think is a pretty steep price tag in terms of like 10% of their own company. Do you think that there is some sort of regulatory approval necessary for this deal to happen or not? I've heard that there is, and I don't want to pretend that I understand the D.C. regulatory process at all.

but if there is there's you know there's a reason why you've seen Roger Goodell in the Oval Office at photo ops

and there's a reason why you've seen the NFL sort of partner with the White House on the you know the 250th

anniversary celebration and so you know for your local listeners the idea of a name change

for for for for the commanders you know it's something that people have to take seriously i don't want to suggest that it's that that it's certainly going to happen but you know uh trump said it in the truth uh post uh and it's something that you that people have to take seriously i mean if they have to get approvals that who knows who knows what the you know what sort of pound of flesh the the white house is going to be trying to demand out of this well you jumped ahead because I was going to ask about that, you know, between, you know, they have that lease for the RFK land, and that was the threat the first time. I'm wondering if this, you know, it's not a merger,

necessarily, but it's an acquisition. And I'm wondering if he could hold that up. And I'm sure there are a lot of people listening that would say, go hold up the stadium and hold up this ESPN NFL network for the name back. I don't see that happening. I really don't as much as I would love it to happen. You're from here. You're a fan of the team. You know, Kevin, I got asked this the other day, and I'm curious because you host the

local show and you talk to more people than I do. Among my, I grew up in D.C., in the, like, 70s and 80s, among my friends, they, They have a nostalgia for the old name, of course. But they're not, like, manic about it. The idea of, like, sort of changing it back. Like, I think they wouldn't mind it, but they, they, in terms of things they care about with the team, it's not even the top 20. For most hardcore fans that you talk to, where does it, where does the team name fall in the things that, like, they just really.

Top three. Easily. Top three, really. Wow. That stuns me that you say that because you and I essentially grew up at the same time. And in some cases, as we both know in the same circles. And I, I, yeah, now, there's, there is the part of the fan base that left and hasn't come back and probably won't come back. And they are our age or older.

and it was getting run down by Snyder and the embarrassment of so many bad teams and then the loss of the name was the death knell and the introduction of the new name really felt very much like an expansion team had landed in town so for those people I think there's just apathy at this point

I don't know that anything I think they found other things to do and look you and I've talked about this the TV ratings during the most successful year in 33 years didn't jump. Attendance didn't jump, or it did a little bit, but they were still in the bottom third, bottom quarter of the league in attendance. And so far, we have yet to, you know,

find out that the season tickets are sold out for the upcoming season. So I think it's still a major issue with the majority of fans, both past and present. I just don't think it'll happen. I think that ship sailed. I think it's that the top 10 sponsors in this, League, you know, the FedExes and the Amazons and the Anheuser bushes of the world, that they were the issue all along, you know, shareholders, customers having an issue with this,

even though most of us understand this has not been an issue with the Native Americans themselves. So, yeah, I think we're in different spots on that. But I don't think that Trump's going to hold up the stadium or hold up this deal for, you know, until Josh Harris brings Redskins back. Although I do think it would be a financial boon if he did it. I just don't think the league will go for it. I could see, though, like, you know, maybe uniforms, or what's an olive branch that the NFL...

Well, the uniforms are coming back. We're going to see those be the full-time uniform, I think, starting in 26. What about the helmet, even? Look, the logo should come back. The logo should come back that was never even, you know, nothing controversial ever existed about that logo. The issue is whether or not it would match up with what the team name is. Would it be, you know, a branding match for it? But I don't know that it will.

I'm just saying I don't think that anybody should prevent it, including the top sponsors in the league. The name is different than the logo. I am of the belief that a run through the playoffs, a multi-year just winning run will get people excited about this team. And what's so funny is, like I still pine for the bullets as most people. and they never actually had that run to where the name from. When was that name changed?

It was changed in the early 90s and they never had the run to where it's like, you know, okay, yeah, now I'm a wizard's guy. Look, I think you're right and I think, well, I don't know if you're right or wrong, but I'm open to the possibility that consistent winning, which, by the way, it looks like they may be on the verge of doing, which is why I think they were able to keep the name after this year. I do think that this was a major in-house point of contention, but 12 and 5 and 2 road playoff games made the path easy to just stick with commanders.

Because look, there is a whole new generation that just doesn't care as much as people like me and people older than me and some people younger than me. And we have less lifetime value than somebody who's 22 and hasn't. been a big fan of the team, but now is, you know, adopting the team because they live in the market. So there's so much involved in this. This is not where I thought the conversation would go today, by the way. And I want to bring it back to the primary reason I called you. But I think there's so much that we don't know. I've always held out for the possibility that they understand how big it would be to bring the old name back. I don't think it'll ever fly. I think that ship sailed. I do

think Washington football team, old uniforms would have been the way to go. But there's a whole new universe of potential fans that are a lot younger, that have a lot more lifetime, you know, value to the team and to the ownership group than, you know, guys 45 and older. Yeah, and I don't undercount, and I know you don't, just the idea of moving on from Snyder. I mean, Snyder. Sure, huge. the name change was a couple of decades of Snyder in the making. And we're like, okay, now we're out.

I can't do it anymore. And you can squander goodwill. We're seeing that with the Baltimore Orioles right now. You can squander that pretty quickly. But it does seemly Josh Harris sort of. They're just professionally run now. So it's a lot more fun to watch. Look, I'll ask you, and we'll move on after this,

but you are a sports media person. You know how much I love that stuff, and it's why I've had these conversations with you so many times over the years. But one of the things, and I know it's not the all-end, you know, it's not the be-all end-all anymore because of so many ways to sort of consume the content. But aren't you surprised that the TV ratings didn't go up,

that they were essentially the same, as you told us, you know, towards the end of the year, that they were in, 23 with a 4 and 13 team. Aren't you surprised that they didn't sell out every game once it became apparent? Jaden was a star and the team was 6 and 2 or 7 and 2. Yeah. What's your response?

I actually was very surprised, and I reached out to Mike Moldo, who was a great research executive for Fox, who just dives into these numbers and knows so much about these numbers. And he wasn't surprised, which also surprised me. And he said that generally the year, the breakout year, it's just people don't come through. It's not reflected in television ratings. It's sometimes not even reflected in terms of attendance.

And attendance with this team, you also have to just throw FedEx Field in with that as well. it's a tough place to go. The thing to look at is this year, and if people are coming back, you're going to see it this year, because people are getting excited over the team.

They're going to be more inclined to watch a team. It's not going to be like a, it's not going to have a feel of a fluke, perhaps. And he said he sees it in market after market, after market, like the first year, people are already surprised, when these ratings go up and then it's a year following that you see. Interesting.

There are probably a million reasons why that happens. I don't really understand that that well. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't just a change in fortune. It was a leap into something that, you know, when you have an eight-game turnaround, and by the way, it's led by a young superstar rookie of the year quarterback, I would think that it would translate much sooner, but that's interesting. You know, here's a question that is not necessarily associated with this. But, you know, you were talking about the – by the way, I'll be calling you every week

to find out what the local TV numbers are for every game next year, starting in one-a-half weeks. So I'm still on AM radio for three hundred, hours every day. But it's not, you know, AM radio anymore, right? People stream, people podcast, the show, and then I've got this podcast as well. I'm wondering if you have looked into what's the future of radio play-by-play of sports when everybody right now can pretty much watch a game on their phone. And now you're talking about the, you know, being able to red zone on your phone through an app. I think you can do that anyway.

What is the future of radio play-by-play? I think there's still a future in it. I mean, like AM radio, it's not going to be as big a business as it once was, but you still have plenty of places like, you know, like Series XM, you know, that would be, we'll invest in, in audio. And you have,

Actually, you're the home of the Redskins. We're not anymore. We're not anymore. We used to be. We were for many years. Not anymore. I heart is. Wait, who's it?

Oh, okay. I heart is. And if there's money there, then the team is going to have radio. And I would expect that, you know, I don't expect that you'll see a Frank Sonny and Sam situation. come out of this where, you know, people, like, you and I just remember those guys. Touchdown, watching the Redskins.

That'll be hard. That's not coming back. But I still see that as being something that brings in millions of dollars to the team. So it's something in terms of rights. Interesting. I don't see that going really anywhere. Yeah, I think from a broadcaster standpoint, especially as some of these older guys, retire or even, you know,

unfortunately die off. I think the next wave are the 25-year-olds that'll do it for next to nothing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you recall, when we were kids, people would turn down the sound on TV and they would turn up the radio.

And you can't, I mean, I've been able to do that for decades because it didn't match. You know, the radio call would be a second or two earlier, late from the, from TV. But back in the 70s, 80s, before that, like I said in the beginning about the cable industry, I mean, it's been the whole radio industry, but it's still out there, and it's still making money, and people still value those rights. Red zone, how will that work?

Do you have any idea? Will Scott Hansen still be the guy doing Red Zone? Will we watch it on the Red Zone channel, or will we watch it on an ESPN property? it's still going to be on the Red Zone channel. It's still going to be Scott Hanson. There is almost zero percent chance that you're going to see, you know, Stephen A. Smith or Pat Max see making like an appearance to talk about like a touchdown or something like that.

I've seen, especially on social media over the past couple of days, people are sort of freaking out over that idea. And all I can tell you is that the people that run ESPN programming, you have, you know, Jimmy Pitouro and Burke Magnus, and they're smart executives, and they have a history that you can actually point back on with the Pat McAfee show. Like, Pat McAfee has gone toe-to-to-toe with ESPN executives.

Like, he's called out ESPN executives on air, and ESPN just sort of like, let them do a thing. You know, you didn't get suspended. He didn't happen to him. And so the idea that they're going to take something that it's undoubtedly popular. People love NFL Red Zone and then try to put their mark on it. There's zero chance that we're going to see that happen. None.

And I know everybody's taking a look at the inside the NBA that's coming over to ESPN next basketball season. And same thing. I mean, I can't see ESPN deciding, like, oh, well, we want to make sure that, you know, Stephen A. Smith is on that table. Like, they're not going to do that. It's a popular show, and they want to bring on popular shows and bringing the audience associated with it. I expect that the NFL Red Zone will look and feel exactly like the NFL Red Zone of today with or without Scott Hanson. I had no knowledge that Scott Hansen's going to go or not, but if he does go somewhere,

they'll just replace him with another Scott Hanson. I did see somebody tweet out that as part of this deal, the future of Monday night football will be stand-alone games only, no more double-headers like we've seen for the last several years, and we've got plenty of them this year. Why is that? I think that they just realize that that doesn't work. They like the idea of doubleheaders because in case one game was a dog or, you know,

then people would go to the other game or, but, you know, the staggered start time, they never quite, it's, the first game started too early, the second game started too late, and they weren't able to get a good NFL-sized audience for that. And the NFL has figured out, too, you know, with these games, with their games that they sold to streaming services, they figured out that, like, if they can, and I totally apologize for giving you a corporate speaker, if they can eventize these games. They, what, what they, I'm sorry, I interrupted.

If they can eventize these games. They can turn them into events. So, like, Netflix pays, like, a ton of money. I think it's $150 million for Christmas Day games, like games on Christmas. Like, that they're able to do that. I know Amazon,

they have Thursday night football, but they have made sure that they're going to have that Black Friday game, like Amazon and Black Friday. And so if they can take these games, like the game in Brazil, like that's a Friday night game, like that's sort of new and unique and different, and that attracts people because they have their own window for it.

And so that's part of the NFL's reasoning here, that they just want to take games and create their own windows to make it more sellable, so to speak. How about that Hall of Fame game, a true nearly 7 million viewers? That's insane. Yeah, I mean, these numbers, and I think you know I'm a big baseball fan.

Yeah. There was a great Sunday night baseball game, down to the wire, third of the audience. An NFL preseason game that had any starters he can play? No.

No. It's just incredible. Right. People are so excited just seeing the helmets go out of the laundry like Jerry Times outside. Thanks for doing this, as always, much appreciated. We'll do it again when the regular season

gets underway. Thanks, John. Always enjoy coming on, man. Thank you. All right, that's it for the show today. Love having John on the show. and thanks to Mitch Tishler as well, who joined us from the joint practice in Foxborough between the Patriots and the Skins.

Back tomorrow with Tommy.