The Kevin Sheehan Show - Pats Offered First For Trent

Episode Date: August 22, 2019

Kevin opened with news on New England's interest level in Trent Williams. Kevin and Thom talked Skins-Falcons, Scherzer's return, Hard Knocks and more. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yeah, Tommy's here. Aaron's here. Tommy feeling a little bit better still on the phone with us today. We've got some things to get to with the Redskins playing a preseason game tonight, the third preseason game, which typically has been the more important of the preseason games, but not everybody's taking it that way anymore. And tonight, Max Scherzer. return. So we'll get to all of that, but Tommy, I actually, this morning opened up the radio show with some news, and so I will give it to our podcast listeners as well and to you simultaneously. It's this. I learned late last night that the Patriots were willing to offer their 20-20 first round pick for Trent Williams, but we're told by the Redskins that it was not enough. So that's it. You know, there's no much, there's nothing more to it. I don't know if anybody else has offered anything. We can discuss this for a little bit because I think it tells us a few things maybe,

but not definitively. But the Patriots, according to my sources, were willing to offer their 20-20-first round pick for Trump Williams. The skins told them it wasn't enough. They didn't say, no, we're not trading them. They told them it wasn't enough. They wanted more. So with that, the first thing that it suggests, right,

is that the Redskins actually are. are interested in moving him, or there is a price the skins will take for Trent Williams. Now, a first rounder late in the first round, which is what New England's would be, it may be as close to a second round pick as it would be a first round pick, usually in the 30 to 32 range. You know, maybe they wanted more because it was the Patriots, you know, projected first rounder, which would be, you know, projected to be late first. Maybe they would take just a first from Houston, who, by the way, had another injury to an offensive lineman recently. But it does suggest that the Redskins are at least listening.

So what do you think the Redskins are thinking? Try to get in the mind of Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder. And that should be easy because there's probably lots of room in there. Try to get in there and think, what are we thinking when we trade him? What are we saying about ourselves when we trade him? Or do we care about that? In other words, if we trade Trent Williams, do we care that we're given the player who basically destroyed our medical staff?

You know, we're giving him a chance to get exactly what he wants without any of the questions answered that was supposedly raised in this whole thing that allegedly went, that allegedly went beyond. money or do they just not care about that? Oh, I think one of the reasons they've been so hell-bent in standing firm on this in not trading him or not giving him a new contract or a contract extension is because they're not happy with the way it's been portrayed by those close to him, not by Trump Williams or his agent, but by those close to him. I don't think they're happy with that at all, but I think there's also a realization now that he ain't coming back and he didn't want to

come back and whatever the reasons are, and at some point, it's time to cut bait. Now, Tommy, a couple of things here. First of all, we do know, based on earlier reporting, J.P. Finley was one who reported that the Patriots and two other AFC teams had inquired about Trent Williams. So I think the news here, and maybe somebody else has had this, but I think the news is that they were willing to give up the first, and it wasn't enough for the Redskins. But I want the Redskins to trade Trent Williams, but I also want them to be patient enough to wait for something more than New England's first. And I know I've been in the minority on this, and Joe Thaisman made fun of me for this, said I was delusional with respect to

getting maybe a first plus. But this is the weekend in particular, where the starters play, they play more time, increasing the risk of more, you know, frontline starters going down. And I think if they're patient, somebody's going to come up with more than that, I'm just glad to know that there is a price that they will accept to move on from that firm position, that stubborn position, which is we hate the way he's portrayed this. But at some point, it is sort of, let's move on and try to get as much as we can get for a player who, by the way, has more value on the trade market than any other player we probably have.

Yeah. So you acknowledge there's got to be some deep resentment inside the building. I think so. for the way this has unfolded, whether Trent Williams is telling the truth or not. But that shouldn't stop them from eventually making the best move for the organization, and that's the trade them. Now, I agree with you. I think they can get more, but I don't profess to know anything about how the Patriots operate than anyone else does who's listening. I just don't see the Patriots as the team to say, okay, we'll give you this and this. I see the Patriots as a team that makes their offer and then moves on.

Great point. In fact, the reports that the Patriots were interested, I believed, JP had one of them, and then the reports that followed that suggested they weren't interested. All of that makes sense with them willing to offer the first and the Redskins saying, no, it's going to take more. So they were interested at a first, but they're not interested anymore if they've got to pay more is essentially the way I would extrapolate what I learned last night in terms of the reporting about the Patriots.

But anyway, you know, he's not coming back. He's not coming back. I'm with you 100% on this. I think the longer they wait, the more desperate things get, I think they can get a better deal from somebody. I think you have to, you can't jump. And like you said, that's almost a second round pick. from the Patriots, and I think they can do better than that.

I think they can do a team that has a lower first round pick, plus maybe get a fourth out of it too. Two draft picks out of it. I think that's possible as well. All right. Yeah, so I think they should wait. All right, let's move on to the game tonight, because Kime was on with me on the radio show this morning,

and he essentially basically, you know, discounted any conversation that includes Dwayne Haskins starting on opening day against the Eagles. He said right now, it's Case Keenham's job, and that the only alternative to Case Keenum for the opener against Philadelphia would be a healthy Colt McCoy. In fact, I said, so your odds would be Keenum is the favorite, McCoy is the second favorite, and then Haskins is a long shot, he said exactly. He essentially said they just don't believe in the organization as an organization, which would include Snyder, Bruce, Doug, and the football people, that they just don't believe he's ready to play Philadelphia

and ready for really the earlier portion of the schedule. If that's true, tonight, Keenham should start. Keenham should play most of the way with the starters against the starters, and he better look competent tonight. You know, you're right. You're right about all that. And I think Keenom's a good quarterback. I mean, I like Case Keenham.

I think he's got dealt a bad hand throughout his career, and I thought it was a great deal when they got him for basically nothing. Now, all that said, let's go back to Colt McCoy for a second. Let's operate under the assumption that every day Colt McCoy spends at Redskins Park is another day closer to the end of his career. So I'm not sure we can count on Colt McCoy any time in the near future. So that means do you want to go into week one against Philadelphia with basically your quarterback situation being Dwayne Haskins one injury away from being forced to be the starting quarterback for this team moving forward? Or do they need another quarterback to replace Colt McCoy?

Seriously. I mean, the way this team is set up right now, I mean, I think you could get pretty good odds. that Keith Keenham is knocked out of the first game against Philadelphia, and you've got Dwayne Haskins playing quarterback before the end of the game. Let me just as an aside tell you that, and I'll tell Aaron this too, because I haven't mentioned this to Aaron, I'm starting to think that one of my big plays in week one is going to be the Redskins plus nine against the Eagles,

because Wence isn't going to play in this preseason. defense travels, defense it can be ahead of an offense that hasn't gotten a lot of work in the opener, and I'm starting to like the Redskins plus nine, but let me tell you why I wouldn't like them. If Colt McCoy plays,

they have to take this temptation away from Jay Gruden, Tommy. It's a dead end. And when John Kimes said that this morning, the phone lines lit with people saying, enough of Colt McCoy. This is, and you've said it too, about from a business perspective, this is the worst path they could go on from a ticket selling

standpoint. Jay Gruden really does believe in Colt McCoy running his system and that the two of them could be really successful together. But he totally has a blind spot to Colt's injury history and the fact that it'll never play 16 games. And for my money, I think he's also missing something in terms of Colt McCoy's ability to be a winning quarterback. It's time to take that temptation and put it aside, and I wouldn't care if Haskins was the backup. You know, Keenham hasn't gotten hurt. He started 30 games in two years.

I know that, but you just said defense carries early in the season. Not always. Fred Smoot said that to me. I don't know if I totally agree with that, but go ahead. Well, while the Redskins may have probably a good defense, least a good defensive front, the Eagles do have a good defense. Oh, very good. And they're going to tee off on this Redskins offensive line. I mean, they're going to make life miserable for whoever that quarterback is.

My point is not Colt McCoy. My point is, are you willing to have Dwayne Haskins, he's on such a paper-thin edge to being the starting quarterback? Yes. You want him to start right now. Well, I think that's a bad idea. Well, it is a bad idea if he's nowhere near ready. I concede that point. If he's not anywhere near ready and they're worried that he can't protect himself or they can't

function at all as an offense in the same way they can with Case and Colt, then don't play them. I'm all for that if that's the situation. But if it's close between he and Case Keenham and Colt McCoy's injured, then I'm playing him sooner rather than later. I'm not worrying about the schedule. I'm not worried about my left tackle. I'm not worried about my receivers.

Most young quarterbacks get drafted by teams that aren't very good, and they play. And so I know this feeling that, well, Dwayne can't, you know, he's not a mobile guy, he can't create. I think we've seen in two preseason games, that's the biggest surprise for me, is that he's more mobile than he looked at Ohio State, and he seems to be able to protect himself a little bit more by extending and creating and getting outside the pocket. more than I thought. So if it's close, I am playing Keenham sooner rather than later. Yeah, that's my position. If it's not close and he's not ready, I'm all for being patient. Okay. If it's not close and he's not ready and Colt McCoy is nowhere near able to even

be the backup, do they need another quarterback? No. You can still put him in as a backup. If Keenham gets hurt and you've got to put him out of. out there with a truly protective, simplified game plan, you can do that. Come on. I don't see, by the way, him being so far removed from playing in an NFL game. I believe Kime, you know, in his thoughts, talking to Gruden and everybody that they don't think he's anywhere near ready, and that's fine. But we haven't seen a guy that's scared, that's skittish, that looks like he can't do it, like he can't go in there and hand off or throw a quick bubble screen, he could do that, you know, 10 times a game if required to do so.

So you don't think he's got a little John Beck in him, huh? No, I don't think he's got any John Beck in him. John Beck needed five pairs underwear before he went out in a regular season game. He was so frightened and terrified. No, that does not appear to be Haskins. I think, look, I'm doing a worst-case scenario situation. But I think it's a worst-case scenario that could easily happen. And I just don't think you want to be forced to play this kid at quarterback

before you think he's ready. In other words, he needs to be the third quarterback, the third quarterback going into the season. And if Colt McCoy is not your second, you need another quarterback. Okay. Well, that would really – think about this, okay? I know. Think about in the next few days, Colt McCoy – is just unhealthy. They throw them on, you know, IR or Pup or whatever, or they release them,

or they, whatever. And now they go out and sign who, who are the veteran quarterbacks that are available? Like right now, are there any veteran quarterbacks that haven't signed? You know, like, where's Jake Locker these days? Like, who's out there right now? You know, where's Tyrod Taylor? Is he on a roster? I don't think he is. Josh McCown, I don't think he is. Josh McCown, I think Aaron just got picked up by somebody who lost a quarterback, didn't he? Yes, he did. Yes, he did. The Jets, I want to say?

No, the Eagles. The Eagles. And by the way, Tommy, imagine this. Imagine they sign Trevor Simeon if he hasn't signed with anybody. Brock Osweiler, if he hasn't signed with anybody, imagine the Colin Kaepernick discussion. Why didn't you sign Kaepernick? They don't need any of that. If Colt can't go, Dwayne Haskins is the backup, and they're going with two quarterbacks.

Okay. I think. That would be crazy the reaction to that, to them signing. Well, they do actually have a fourth quarterback on the roster right now. Yes, they do. The guy on McClendon or whatever his name is. Yeah. Yeah.

And look, there's always Mark Sanchez. Well, they can put a jersey on Alex Smith and have him ready to go as the emergency quarterback. Did you see what... Speaking of Alex Smith, how long before Colt McCoy is walking around with one of those medieval-type things on his legs. We don't want that. We love Colt. No, we don't.

And we like Alex, too. I mean, I want them both to be healthy. But look, to me, I'm not a huge Keenham fan. I'm a bigger Keenham fan than I am a McCoy fan. They're just both dead ends. The sooner you can get this guy ready to go in and be as, you know, as competent as either one of them, the better for this franchise moving forward. I did want to mention.

You know, the fun. Yeah, go ahead. The funny part, though, is the sooner you can. you do that. And I think this is the way you're thinking. The sooner you know whether he can play quarterback or not, the sooner you can move on from him and draft another quarterback next year, right? That's a part of it. That is a part of it. Now, I don't know how much, look, it would have to be really disastrous, right? You know, he'd have to start 10 plus games and appear to not have any chance of developing into a guy.

And I doubt we're going to get that with him. First of all, everything we're hearing, and I know we heard this about RG3, so there's that sort of caveat. But everything we're hearing is that he's coachable, he's smart, the talent. Vernon Davis said this about him a couple of days ago. He's got the potential to be an all-time great because of his arm strength and what he brings to the team. And then he did say that there's a learning curve.

He's young and there's a big learning curve for him. But the one thing we're hearing is that he's got, you know, some self-awareness and a good head on his shoulder. And we've seen the talent. Now, we saw the talent with RG3, too, and we heard a lot of the same things, especially from people like you who were so blown away with his savvy. But we also know that the owner, you know, completely fucked that one up. And hopefully that won't happen with Haskins and the owner. I guess you can't discount that as a possibility. but some of that will be on the kid too.

Like RG3 was welcoming of the status and the stature and the org chart position he had by being the owner's best friend and being, you know, totally empowered by the owner. He was essentially for all intents and purposes, the second most powerful person in the organization. He had to welcome that and be completely oblivious to the downside of that. Maybe Haskins will understand that, hey, the owner can try to do this, but the coach is who I'm reporting to. I'm going to be coaching. Well, maybe that'll happen. But then maybe Haskins and Haskins would love to have Dan Snyder as a business partner.

You can have that and still be super coachable and not report to the owner when it comes to football things and not go to the owner. every time you've got an issue with the coach. I mean, remember, that's a big part of it, is the empowering allowed Griffin to go into Snyder's office with an open door anytime he wanted or call him whenever he want to say, listen to what Mike's making me do now. Listen to what Kyle wants me to do. I'm not a running quarterback.

I want these plays out of the playbook. And the owner says, you're right, Robert. This is bullshit. We're going to tell him. And so, But maybe, you know, that's lack of self-awareness, that's entitlement from the time he was a child, never being told no, never facing adversity. All those things come into play. And, you know, Haskins has barely started a quarterback in his football career one year at Ohio State. Maybe he's got a little bit more humility. What number is he wearing this year on the team? I forget. What number is Haskins wearing? I'm not sure.

I forget what number is wearing. It's number seven. It's kind of slipped my mind. Yeah. And listen, listen, if I'm part of Dwayne, if I'm part of Haskins and Haskins and things aren't going well, I'm whispering in that kid's ear say, hey, this coach, he's gone. He's not going to be here next year. You're going to be here. You don't have to worry about him.

You don't have to listen to him. He's gone. You know, it's one of the things I've heard recently, and I don't know this for a fact, but there is, you know, this thing going around some of the media people that because Jay Gruden, for all intents and purposes, is a lame duck and on his last year, you know, as the Redskins coach, that the owner may not want him to play and have to learn two offenses in basically 12 months. Now, Kevin O'Connell is a big part of this. conversation. You know, they elevated him to offensive coordinator because they didn't want him to

leave the building like Sean McVeigh was allowed to leave the building. They view him as a potential future head coach and maybe there, maybe the replacement for Jay Gruden here. I did this, I thought you and I had this conversation, but if we didn't, I'll just net it out. To me, it's in Jay's best interest if he is interested in remaining employed here, rather than just taking the money in 2020 and taking a year off. Because I'm not convinced that Jake Rudin is desperate to remain the Redskins head coach. But let's assume for a moment that he is, it's in his best interest to develop Dwayne Haskins and become Dwayne's guy more than it is to go nine and seven and make the playoffs.

Yeah, I grant you that, but that has nothing to do with what Haskins would want. Again, if you're giving the young quarterback, you know, if you're working, if you're whispering in his ear and things aren't going well, you just say to the kid, hey, you know, you don't have to listen to this guy. He's gone. You know, just wait him out. How completely asked. It's asked backwards. Like, they should have fired Jay. If that's their position, and I don't know that it is. But it's just another, you know, example of their, their dysfunction. Yes. And these examples are not just made up of loincloth. These examples are based on a track record that constantly brings these kind of things up.

So, I mean, it's not like these scenarios are far-fetched. What would be far-fetched? Would be a functional relationship. Yes, that's true. Anyway, as it relates to tonight, you know, if Kimes right, then more likely than not, Keenham's going to get all of the work with the starters and then we'll exit with the starters. My preference is that Haskins gets some of that work with the starters.

He is the future. If you're not going to have a chance to see him with the starters for the first half of the regular season, then this is the last chance for that. I'd love to see him, you know, with starters, against starters, to get a better sense. I need that better sense. Maybe the coaches don't, but from a fan's perspective,

I'd like to see something that is more, you know, comparative to, you know, Keenham and to, you know, what the, you know, it's not the regular season, no game planning the whole thing, but we've only seen him with backups against backups. I'd love to see him take that next step and see what he's got. It's really hard to make judgments about him so far. The only judgment I'm willing to make is we haven't seen anything that makes you think he can't play quarterback in the NFL. That's probably the safest way to put it. I would add to that. He is more mobile to me than he was at Ohio State, maybe a reflection of some lost weight or, you know, lost body fat,

or, by the way, more necessity in these two preseason games to make a play where at Ohio State they had all the talent in the world and he probably wasn't under duress a whole lot. He wasn't a few games because I watched him. But I also just think that, you know, the arm strength is so obvious in the confidence that he seems to have, and I'm projecting there, but we're sporting. fans. We know a guy that doesn't belong versus a guy that feels like he does. He looks like the guy that's got that level of confidence.

Like, yeah, I can do this. Like, this is not overwhelming to me. And that's encouraging. No, you're right. You're right. Absolutely. That's what I would take out of it so far. He doesn't seem overwhelmed by the moment. So, you know, I mean, like I said,

same thing I said with RT3, right before the opening game, before the shock and all, I said that the only thing that could screw this up are the Redskins. And I maintained this even more so this time because I don't think Haskins

necessarily has the same baggage as RG3 did, but that would stop the Redskins from screwing it up. On your all-time rankings of I was right, is shock and all the shock-in-all prediction number one? You know, I'd have to think about that. It's a long list, Kevin. No, it's not that long. It's a long lesson that would require a team of researchers in order to figure out exactly what I was most right about.

You know, that one, that was an all-timer. That was an all-timer. Tommy, before the New Orleans opener in 2012, said, Ladies and gentlemen, expect shock and awe. Number 10, Robert Griffin III is going to be lights out great in this opener. end in this season, and we had no idea going into that opener what it would be. What you didn't know is how he was going to play, but you did predict shock and awe. I'm talking about the style of play, the, you know, the pistol and the zone read and all of this.

I didn't know any of that. But I knew that veterans on that team were more excited about him than any rookie I ever saw in training camp. And that was my signal that they were. seeing something that that was different. They were seeing the creation of Mike and Kyle for the most part. With an incredible talent running that style of offense. But God, that was crazy in that opener. 40 to 32 in New Orleans against the Saints who were, I think, nine-point favorites.

Go back and look that up, Aaron. See if I'm right about that. They were more than touchdown underdogs in that opener against the Saints. find that on covers.com if you go back. All right. Tonight, there are a couple of just a couple of quick thoughts on what you want to see. I'll go first. I want to see the first team defense against Atlanta's first team offense.

I think what we're seeing defensively is potentially more athleticism, more team speed, more experience, combined with what Fred Smoot and even Sean Springs told me over the last week, and that is less disruption and distraction? Eight-point favorites. Eight-point favorites? Pretty good memory on that. The Saints were eight-point favorites. The Redskins won out right by eight. They've all indicated, and Cooley's told me this, too, that, you know, the Sweringer stuff and some of the coaches, there was some real dysfunction on the defense, even though the defense made improvement last year. And with that gone, there's even more

optimism. I want to see a sense of that, the energy. I do want to see the left tackle thing. Kime told me he expects Donald Penn to start tonight and to take all of the work with the starters and that that's the plan for opening day, which was a bit of a revelation given how much work Geron Christians gotten recently. And I'd like to see this guy, Terry McCorn, who everybody's raved about, and we've seen play one play in the preseason. And that's it. What do you want to see? Well, I do want to see the wide receiving corps. The number one wide receiving corps.

I do want to see these guys. You're not going to see Trey Quinn, right? He's not playing. And Quinn's not playing Richardson apparently isn't playing either. Oh, okay. Well, that's kind of a disappointment because I'd really like to see the receiving court because that's I mean, that's a big question. There's a whole

lot of faith going on right now that the Redskins will be able to put out a receiving corps that has no track record in the NFL. Zero, basically. Paul Richardson, you know, basically, you know, glimpses of good. But other than that, you know, we're banking on guys like Cam Sims and Robert Davis and McCorrin. McCoror, look, for what it's worth, the couple of times I went to minicamp and the catches I saw him make, I mean, he was stunning.

I mean, he really was. But then so was Terrell Pryor. You know? Remember all of the buzz about Terrell Pryor and training camp? Yeah. So, I mean, you really have to stop yourself from believing what you see until there's something to see. And that's what I'm hoping for from the receiving course, something to see. I'd really like to see the defensive line at its full strength tonight. You know, I think it's going to be even stronger with a better Tim Settle to basically rotate in and out for them this year.

I'm constantly amazed that this happens. John Bostic is now one of the leaders of the team, right? Yeah, I know. And Landon Collins, too. And Landon Collins also. They got here yesterday. And all of a sudden, John Bostic, who was out there, ready to be picked up, is this genius linebacker who, who, who, is that what they're saying, genius linebacker?

I really haven't heard that. I've heard that he's got great leadership. Yes, I'm excited. And that he's very smart. and all that may be true, you know, and it's possible. Look, they picked up Mason Foster off the scrap heap a couple years ago after he got cut by Tampa and got a lot out of him. So I'm real, look, I don't see how you can still even make judgments about the offense

because you don't have your number one wide receiving core out there. I'm more interested in seeing the defense, which is going to be the way they're going to have to win games this year. and obviously Darius Geist. Yeah, I'd like to see Geis tonight, and Kime indicated that we may see some of him tonight. I don't need to see Jordan Reed or Chris Thompson. Jordan Reed, Vernon Davis, and Chris Thompson,

if this offense ends up being better than we think it is, it's going to be because of them, and the quarterback, obviously, whomever the quarterback is and the performance of the quarterback. But I don't have any reason to be optimistic about anything else offensively. You know, we know, we know. what a healthy Jordan Reed and Chris Thompson, we know what they can do. We know what Vernon Davis has looked like at times as a pass-catching tight end. And by the way, I thought he looked pretty good last week and looks in shape and all of that.

So we'll see on all of that. You had said something. Oh, your Bostic comment, there's no doubt that if you want to make the list of things that are indicators of just how, you know, dysfunctional, to use your word. This organization's been every new player that comes in here ends up being a team captain, it seems like. And Landon Collins and John Bostic may be two new ones on defense. DJ Swaranger came in, became a team captain, how'd that work out.

Now, I do have a lot of optimism and respect for John Allen, and I think that locker room does too. he is a first-rate high-quality guy and a really good player. And by the way, the strategy of going Alabama and Bud Foster Virginia Tech in the draft a lot, when in doubt, if you're not confident in the job you've been doing, you might as well go Bud Foster and Nick Saban. I agree. You're going to end up with some decent players who have been well-coached

and probably understand what it takes to have a winning culture. No, I agree. Yeah. Absolutely. And like I said, the defensive core with Ionitis and Duran Payne and Allen and then settle, you know, coming in and out, obviously that that's going to be their strength. And you dismissed this the last time. And I want to hang on to that dismissal because I know it's going to come back to bite you in the ass. Which one?

is when I talk about my concern about the special teams, and you said you can't make any judgments about special teams in preseason. Their special teams, except for last year early in the season, have generally been a disaster. And part of the formula last year for success in a conservative offense was special teams helping to get good field position for them. And if they don't have good special teams, it really doesn't matter how good their defense is. It'll get swallowed up.

First of all, you're never going to be able to prove that it was the preseason with players that didn't play in the regular season, that was the reason and the indication that they were going to be bad on special teams. All I'm saying is I have no idea what they're going to be on special teams, and I would never base it on what I saw in the second preseason game with a bunch of players who either won't be on the roster or certainly won't be a part of their special teams unit in Philadelphia in the opener. That's my only point. So that's why I was dismissive of it. Will Dustin Hopkins be on the roster?

He will. If you want to talk about punters and kickers, that's different. Obviously, they're going to be there. But coverage, they gave up a second punt return for a touchdown last week, which was the big concern. And I'm like, well, whoever's running down on puns in the Philadelphia game wasn't running down on that punt or the one in the Cleveland game in the second half of a preseason game. But the new same coach is coaching him. Yeah, Nate Kayser. Yes.

Okay. So maybe, okay, so say that you're concerned about the coach, not the players who are on the field during those punt returns. And then I won't dismiss it. No, I like it when you dismiss it, because I like you being wrong. I don't know if the special teams are going to be good or bad. I'll tell you what's interesting, and I mentioned this on the radio show this morning. You know, they never bring in competition for Dustin Hopkins. No competition for him.

You know, a lot of teams bring in competition for the kickers. Now, Hopkins has been more good than bad since he's been the kicker, but he was as responsible for them not making the playoffs in 2016 as the defense was. I mean, the defense was god awful, one of the worst in NFL history. But the kick he missed in London against Cincinnati, the two field goals he missed on Thanksgiving Day against the Cowboys. My boy, oh, who has just a delusional memory of some of this shit, texted me the other days.

One of those kicksers from 45 yards out. A 45-yard field goal indoors, Aaron right now is, what, a 90% probability in the NFL indoors? Close to that. Pretty much. You know who can make that field call? You know who can make that? Carly Lloyd can make that field call. She can kick a 55-yarder.

Yes, she can. But, you know, they've had one of the better punters in the league here in Tressaway. I mean, every time he kicks it, there's a chance it's going 65 yards in the air. Yeah. But I don't know. He's been one of the most valuable players. You know, they drafted Terry McCloren in part because they thought he was going to be, you know, a great special teamer. If he ends up being a starting wide receiver, he's probably going to play a lot less on special teams.

But anyway, let me do a quick read for Stamps.com, and then we'll get to some Nats conversation, because Scherer Max Scherzor makes his return tonight. If you are a small business like the Kevin Sheehan Show podcast is, please consider stamps.com. It is totally worthwhile. It's the most popular time-saving tool for small businesses out there right now. Stamps.com eliminates trips to the post office and saves you money with discounts you can't even get at the post office. It brings all of the amazing services of the post office right to your computer. Here's how you use it.

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long-term commitment. Just go to stamps.com, click on the microphone at the top of the home page, and type in my code, which is Kevin D.E.com. That's K-E-V-I-N-D-C. Stamps.com, enter Kevin D-C. How about Cabrera for the Nats, who they picked up essentially off the scrap heap two and a half weeks ago, Tommy? Do you know that as Drubel Cabrera right now

in 11 games with the Nats is hitting 324, has a 422 on-base percentage, has a 622 slugging percentage, and has 13 RBIs in 11 games. I know. They were not expecting that from him. He was hitting 2.30 when he got here. I know.

I mean, they're scrappy pickups this year. Geraldo Parra, who has given them much more than, you know, than statistics on the field. And Cabrera, you know, I mean, Ritz was just right. Yeah, Rizzo guessed right on these guys. It's a guessing game. You know, I mean, it's an educated guessing game. He knew the player.

Yeah, but no one could have predicted that, you know, he put up these kind of numbers. You're just hoping, you know, you'll have a player who will contribute in a moment from time to time. I mean, again, like I said on Tuesday, what the nationals have been able to do this year, their resiliency has been something we haven't seen from them. I don't think like this strong. And when Scherzer went down, I had the feeling that they were going to collapse. And they did just the opposite. And they've managed to maintain their margin of success without Scherzer.

And that's a testament to the organization, from the general manager to the manager to the players that they've been able to do that. Now, with Scherzer taking the mound tonight, everybody, all the dinosaurs like you who want to see Scherzer out there when he's got 80 pitches in the eighth inning and is striking everybody out like mad, you need to back off the idea of keeping them in the game.

You need to treat Max Scher for the rest of the season with Kit Gluck. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem. Now, I would like before we get into Scherzer a little bit more to take this opportunity to go back to Tuesday night, because I know you, as much as you love baseball, you hate the second guessing of managerial decisions for whatever reason. I don't know why you get so bent out of shape about it. They do it in every baseball city from sun up to sundown on the game that was played the night before. and the other night to me was not debatable. And I know you're going to mock me for this,

but Strasbourg is coasting, having a stress-free performance in a 1-0 game, and a 94 pitch count. And he gets pulled in the 8th for Wander Swero. When, by the way, the reason for it that Martinez gives is that Wander Swero a righty is their best guy against lefties, and the first guy up in that eighth inning is a writing. That one, and I was watching that game, and I'm like, what is he? I was so shocked because of the pitch count primarily.

And by the way, they didn't have to pinch it for them in their top half of the eighth inning. I was shocked when Strasbourg didn't come out for the eighth inning. Tell me that you thought it was okay for Dave Martinez to pull him at that point. Okay, this is why I get worked up about these things. and you know this to some extent in your time in the business. But I know it a lot more because I've been around it in the clubhouses. There are conversations that take place between a pitcher and a manager before a game, during a game, when they're sitting in the dugout

that we're never privy to, never at all. I have seen pitchers get pulled from games early, okay, and then the team would go on to lose the game, and the pitcher stand in front of his locker and say, I don't know why I had to come out early. I was still fresh and ready to go, which all that was a lie. Basically, they had begged out of the game through the manager, and the manager will stick up for them and protect them.

This happens more often than you would think. Do you know that it happened the other night? No, I don't. No, I don't. What I'm saying is. Do you think it happened the other night? I can see that that happens a lot, and I understand that. Do you think it happened the other night?

I think that Dave Martinez knows what's inside Steven Strasbourg's head. And again, even Dave Johnson, Dave Johnson would say this. You want to put the player in a position for success to succeed. And I think that, you know, I think he has basically realized that with Strasbourg, who, let's face it, it's to be kind and introspective guy that you don't want to, you don't want to, when he's had success, you don't want to damage that.

You don't want the risk to go up. Now, this may be a hell of a way to treat a major league baseball player, but that's the way maybe you've got to treat Stephen Strasbourg. I'm not saying he shouldn't be, I'm not saying the criticism is wrong. I'm just saying you've only got half the information. I really do. Well, we always do. We never have all the information.

So for someone who knows, someone who has the knowledge of what's happened before in this game in different situations, it's tough for me to come to conclusions based on what we've seen because I know what we don't hear. It's just that's, I understand that. And I understand that there's a lot of information we don't know. I'm just saying that the probability for this one is that he messed it up, that Martinez messed it up. There may be, we may find out somewhere down the road that Strasbourg because he had pitched poorly in his previous two outings that because he's sort of delicate, you know, as a delicate psyche, that Davey was thinking, you know what, he's pitched so well. I'm going to take him out while the confidence is high.

He's going to take that confidence into the next start. and I feel good about Swero right now. I don't know how he could feel good about Swero in that moment. And I feel even better about Hudson closing us out in a 1-0 game. But there's something we may find that out. I just think in this particular one, the probability is, because there's no obvious reason for having, there's not even a reason that's not obvious why he would have done it.

I just think he messed up. I think this is one of those where. You just argued against yourself. I know that there wasn't an obvious reason. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. So, I mean, there's no obvious.

I bet you he messed up and he knows he messed up the other night. Well, he messed up because it didn't work. No, he messed up before it didn't work. He messed up because he had a pitcher at 94 pitches who he's pitched an average of 102 a game. And in four of the previous eight starts, he's pitched 110. or more, who is having a truly stress-free outing and an outing where the team is in a one-nothing game with a bad bullpen, and he looked totally fresh and ready to go at least one more. If he'd come in with Hudson in the ninth, I get that.

I don't know how he pulled Strasbourg at a 94 pitch count in the eighth. Okay. Okay, that's your position, and you may be right. I'm just saying that, you know, I mean, he's dealing with a player who, like he said, I mean, I don't like to use the word delicate, because he's pitching pretty some pretty tough to sleep. The Cubs game ended that thing. Game four at Wrigley ended that.

Yeah. Although it almost made it more apparent. He had to suck it up to get out there. Here's what we don't know. We don't know if at any point in the conversation that he came back. to Davy at the dugout and they discussed how much more he would go. He's not going to tell you. Martinez certainly isn't going to tell you.

We don't know that. If we sat here day after day doing radio podcasts and said before any opinion, look, let me concede this point. I don't have all of the information. And I'm even hesitant to say what I'm going to say because I don't have all the information. It's about your gut feel about whether or not he messed up or didn't. It's a black and white topic there. I understand there's a lot of gray if you really want to make it gray, and that there's always the possibility you're wrong.

But in this particular one, there wasn't one reasonable answer that was apparent to anybody as to why he got pulled. And I, it concerned... I wrecked my case. I know you do. I know, because there was nothing obvious. It was the not obvious. that makes me wrong and makes me probably...

No, you're not wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong or right. You're just saying, I might be wrong. So let me ask it another way. What do you think the chances are that I'm wrong about this? I'd say at least 40%. Really? Yeah.

So 40% there was some sort of conversation, and Davy and Strassberger were on the same page that they knew he wasn't going to pitch beyond seven innings and 94 pitches tonight. Well, I don't know about that exact number. Whatever it was. There's something there that they're all on the same page on, and it was the right thing to do.

40% chance. All right. And what did the pitching coach say? I forget what the pitching coach said. I don't know that I read a comment from him. Strasbourg totally took the high road on it. Right, right. He didn't say anything.

We don't know if Davey turned to the pitching coach and said, you know, what do you think? Does he have another inning in? You think Dave is a good manager? I think he's, look, again, I think 75% of the job is managing the clubhouse. So I think, yeah, I think he's a good manager. I think his bullpen management has been up for question. But again, I always tell people, name me the great bullpen manager in baseball right now.

Just tell me who he is. And then go hire him. I don't know who that is. And then go hire him. Joe Madden. Joe Madden. It's a disaster when it comes to managing a bullpen. And everyone treats him like a god.

So, no, I think he's a good manager. Do the Nats need Max Scherzer to win in the postseason? Have you seen enough without him that would lead you to believe that the Nats could make a run without him in the postseason? No. No. No. The level of competition is too high in postseason baseball. Starting pitching is too important in postseason baseball,

especially a five-game series. I mean, you could make the case that Dusty Baker lost 2016 and 2017 because he didn't have Steven Strathberg in the 2016 series, and he only had Scherzer for one start in the 2017 series. No, they need Max Scherzer in post-season. in baseball. A healthy Max Scherzer. Now, if they have him and he's bright and he's healthy again,

he would more likely than not pitch the wild card game, you would think. I don't know. I mean, it'll depend on how it gets set up and then it wouldn't be available early in a series against the Dodgers if that's a way it plays out. By the way, you know, the National League East is right now

the best division in baseball in terms of, it's the only division with four out of the five teams with winning records. I mean, The Mets and the Phillies have, first of all, all four teams are playing very well right now. The Mets have been on a tear, obviously. The Phillies have taken two in Cleveland, and I think they've won four out of their last six. Harper hit another home run last night, by the way.

And the Braves have just quietly continued to chug along. I almost think like they're under the radar good. Like, they're really good, but everybody's talking about the Dodgers in the National League, they're talking about the Astros and the Yankees. But the division, which was at one point one of the worst in all of sports, is now one of the best top to bottom in baseball. Well, look, I thought the Mets were about to fade, and they haven't. So, I mean, they've made this a four-team race.

The Phillies are going to collapse. That's a team that at some point soon is ready to fold. I mean, bring in Charlie Manuel in as the hitting coach, Seems to have done wonders for Harper. Yes, it has, but it's caused a big dissension up there. Oh, it has? As to old school versus new school, analytics versus, you know, the old school gut of a hitting coach. And that's going to create a conflict moving forward.

The more success that Shaw Emanuel has, the hotter to see for Gabe Kapler. You know, they have, they took the two games at Fenway. the Phillies just did on back-to-back nights, Tuesday night and Wednesday night. And they have an opportunity here to do what the Nats are doing right now, which is take advantage of this sort of a weak stretch of the schedule. They've got the Cubs, but then they get the Orioles and Marlins next week after these four games. It be nice for them to win in Pittsburgh tonight against a terrible team. Pittsburgh's been the worst team since the All-Star break,

and to split that series would be a shame. But the Phillies get the Marlins and the Pirates over the next six, plus they play like the Reds coming up. So maybe you're right, maybe they're the ones that are going to fold, but right now in the short term, they may have the best opportunity to really, you know, gain some ground with their schedule. The Met story is incredible because at the trade deadline,

when they traded for Stroman, nobody thought it was for this year or that he was even going to be kept. And what turned out is a team that's as hot as any team in baseball over the last, you know, going back to a really, I think it was in mid-July they started this run. They were 11 or 12 games below 500, and they're something like 25 and 9 cents. So they, it might even be better than that.

But they've got great starting pitching, the Mets do. Yeah, but you see the Phillies don't. Yeah, right. The Phillies don't. They've lost Jake Arelletta. They just don't have the horses. for August and September. Some cool games coming up, though, in the National League East.

I mean, the division hasn't been this in a long time. You've got four teams chasing, you know, postseason, whether it's the division or the wild card. And really, for Philly, New York being nine back, it's more about the wild card spot and with the Nats. Nats are still in that division race with seven games against the Braves and six games back at this point. Absolutely.

You don't want to concede that. I mean, look, a one game wild card playoff would be, exciting, but who needs the extra attention? No, you don't want that. You don't want that. You'd much rather win the division. And by the way, win the division and potentially end up with home field advantage in that first round hasn't helped them in their other four playoff appearances.

No, it had. But they could still end up finishing with the second best record in the National League behind the Dodgers, who are a lock to end up with the best record and, you know, home field advantage throughout, whatever that's worth. have you watched any of Hard Knocks? A little bit. I'm not a big Hard Knocks fan. You see, again, it's reality TV, which means it's not reality TV.

It's just the opposite of reality TV. It's scripted reality TV. It's edited reality TV. You're seeing what they want you to see. And again, I don't buy any of that in television. So I'm not a big Hard Knocks guy. Aaron, have you watched it? I have been watching it, yes.

Did you watch the episode from this week? Yes. The one that included the Mayak comments about All In or All Out? Yep. All right. So, first of all, you get a lot of A.B. In this recent episode, I watched it yesterday. Let me just make one comment.

He ain't bright. I mean, it is not that it's pretty damn obvious that he's not the most brilliant guy in the room. But beyond that, they really, I mean, to your point, it's not reality TV, because you get the discussion about the helmet issue, but you don't get any detail and what you really missed out, which would have been phenomenal to see, Aaron, I don't know if you feel the same way, would have been to hear the conversation before Mayok made the statement he made, between he and Gruden and other key people, Mark Davis, in the organization, because that was a team statement, an organizational statement of frustration over the Antonio Brown situation,

and you got none of the buildup. All you got was what you got on TV earlier in the week, which is the statement and very little conversation about it. What would have been incredibly good reality TV, compelling TV, would have been the frustration of the organization over A.B. walking out that day from practice because of this helmet situation, and the reaction from Gruden and the reaction from Mayak, and then the decision and the plan to go out and make the statement they made.

You didn't get any of that. That was disappointing. And I guess, you know, to your point, they're going to protect these organizations in this show. Which, by the way, if the Reds... This is the NFL. I mean, they're going to protect the shield. That's their number one thing. This is to sell.

Okay, there's an old saying about newspapers. What people want to get into? a paper is advertising. What they want to keep out is news. Well, the same thing here. What they want to get out there is to sell their product. The last thing they want is newsbreaking on their own product that they can't control. Yeah, it's, that is a messed up situation. You can't bet on this thing crashing and burning. The only way you can do that is just to bet the over on, under on wins this year? What's their number seven? Something like that? Six and a half, I think six and a half, seven. Under. Under. That thing's going to blow up in their face. And

nobody deserves it more than that group out there. It's so funny because Antonio Brown's so good. He's such an impact player. But you were right. This is the other thing you were right about. And this might be in your top five of all time you were right statements. And that is these diva wide receivers, don't lead to anything positive, ultimately. They just really don't. More times than not, they're not worth the trouble. The juices, you like to say, ain't worth the squeeze. And Antonio Brown is proving that right now.

And what was really disgusting, I thought, in that whole situation was Drew Rosenhouse, totally taking him off the hook and trying to tell people that him walking out on his team wasn't a big deal. Really? I'll tell you what, if I've got a kid that's in college and he's got to pick an agent because he's a tremendous athlete going to get picked by an NFL team. There's no way I would ever select Drew Rosenhouse after that statement.

You don't walk out on your team, which he did at the end of last year against the Browns on the Steelers. But if you're an agent, you're there to certainly get great deals for him, but to also make sure you don't make a stupid statement that walking out on your team isn't a big deal. You know, I wonder what the relationship is these days with Dan Snyder. and Drew Rosenhouse. Because I'm thinking initially when Snyder first owned the team in the early days, I mean, Drew Rosenhouse would be Dan Snyder's kind of agent, right? Well, yeah, I mean, they did a lot of deals together.

He had a lot of the Miami guys that the Redskins had. So, I mean, he was the kind of agent that Dan Snyder loved, big mouth, my profile, you know, star player. Yeah. I wonder what it would be these days. I have one. Well, Dan doesn't deal with the agents. It's Bruce that deals with the agents, and the agents hate Bruce.

Yes, they hate him. Yes, they do. You know, if the Redskins had gotten hard knocks, and I remember when they were in the conversation, and I said, you're not going to get any of the dysfunction. HBO is not going to be allowed to show it, and the Redskins have final say on the content, and you would have gotten a whole lot of up,

beat conversations with Doug Williams and Kyle Smith and Jay Gruden and maybe one show with a little Bruce Allen, you know, delegating some of the authority to Doug. You would have gotten that because, of course, that's not true, but that makes him look better and makes the organization look better. You would have had one of those episodes where it's a Doug Bruce conversation, and Bruce is saying, Doug, what do you want to do here? What do you want to do? You know what? That's a great idea. go do it, get it done. We all know that that's really not how business gets done out there. Yeah.

Here's what else you would have gotten. You would have gotten a lot of Rob Ryan and Jim Tom Sula. Yes. A lot of that. Would have definitely gotten a lot of Jake Rudin, Rob Ryan, and Jim Tom Sulla. That would have been the show right there. Yep. All right.

What else did I have? Oh, did you have any thoughts on this whole XFL thing? I'm sure Aaron's got some thoughts on this. I mean, I'm sure it's exciting for people looking for something in the spring for new, you know, new and it's football. I couldn't care less about this thing. But D.C.'s got a team. Were they playing, by the way? Outty field.

So that's a 20,000 seat stadium, something like that? Yeah. Yeah. So what do you make of it? Well, I love upstart leagues. I know you do. I'm a big fan of people who take those kind of chances. That said, I think starting a football league in 2019 is like looking at the 100 acres of land

you've got in Virginia and saying, I'm going to be a tobacco farmer tomorrow. I just think it's, look, as popular as football is, it's a diminishing product. And to invest in more football, I think it's insane. I think Vince McMahon is a genius. He is. I mean, I think he's a brilliant guy, but this is his white whale. I mean, he's doing it again, and I think it's going to fail. And I hope it doesn't, and I think it's kind of cool that the first professional football team

to play in the district since the Redskins left is not the Redskins. I think that's kind of funny. But I think it's going to fail. But I'll watch it. But I'll watch it. I'll pay attention to it. Yeah. to go to games.

You know, Vince McMahon is a genius, and there is this opportunity right now with the NFL, some of the frustration that NFL fans are feeling, you know, like just normal stuff, like these games getting, you know, delayed by reviews, and now the pass interference review opportunity is going to drive us nuts. The flags, you know, flags on hits that aren't even, you know, violent and, you know, the legislation of physical football almost, you know, out of the game. There is like, there's a bit of an opportunity. But of course, you know, didn't we see the AAF take a shot at this with, you know,

some players that were NFL caliber players and it flopped quickly and badly? There's going to be one way this works to a significant degree in one way only. And it's something that Oliver Luck has said before. And that's, they're not going to abide by any age restriction. If they can go out and offer, let's say, a Trevor Lawrence, $2 million to not play as Junior Year instead play for the XFL, that's the way it'll work. You know what? I agree with that. Because the only reason the USFL worked to whatever level you want to say it worked to is because of Herschel Walker and Doug Flutie. That's what launched the whole thing. They got two huge college stars to commit. You know, Kelvin Bryant was another one, you know, early on. And that made that league, along with the TV deal that they got with ESPN, that made that league watchable.

You know, I did watch the USFL. I bet on the USFL, too. But I watched that league because of the stars. So, you know, you just mentioned the name that just got my attention. Like if somehow Trevor Lawrence took a big contract to play in the XFL this coming spring, I think people would pay attention to it. But I don't know that Trevor Lawrence would take the money to play in the XFL. I don't see that. I don't see it either.

But I think Aaron is right. Look, I go back to the old AFL, and the old AFL, American Football League, got its start because it engaged in a war with the NFL over these players coming out of college and paying them. And I think as much as they like to acknowledge that they're not completely. competing with the NFL, at some point they're going to have to if they want to succeed. And that includes players. Well, the opportunity for Trevor Lawrence is that he's not eligible for the NFL draft next spring. So that would be, you know, you're talking about, you know, potentially the star in college football this year with, by the way, a ton, a shitload of charisma.

And the whole thing of, you know, the aura around Trevor Lawrence right now in Clemson, but him in particular would be a, huge boon to that league, as was Namath to the AFL, right, Tommy? Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, if they don't get Namath, does the AFL ever survive? No, no, no, they don't. Without the Jets and Sonny Werblen, who took over the Jets to become owner and then going out to sign Namath, the first $400,000 quarterback, I'm not sure they do. Yeah, I agree with that. All right, you got anything else? That's it, boss.

All right. Looking forward to watching the action tonight. There's a lot of action. I will have multiple screens going with Scher and with the NFL game. At least we get to see the first few innings before the Redskins game kicks off. But God, do I hate preseason football? My only hope tonight is that we see Dwayne Haskins in meaningful portions of the game, which, you know, after talking to Kime this morning, it sounds like there's more of a chance that we won't than we will.

All right, feel better. You're back on radio with Nick Ashue this weekend on JFK. So tune in for that, Tommy back on radio. I will be in tomorrow morning, obviously, on 980, 7 to 10 a.m. with post-game stuff. And then back here, we'll do a podcast afterwards. Aaron and I will without Tommy to recap the game from last night or from tonight. I'm sorry, as well. Have a great day.