The Kevin Sheehan Show - Payne Excitement + SVP

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Kevin opened with a crazy NFL scoring scenario. He recapped some of what Dan Quinn and Joe Whitt Jr. said today at OTAs including the excitement and optimism from both on Daron Payne. One ESPN analyst likes Bengals' pass rusher Trey Hendrickson to Washington and proposes a package that Kevin likes a lot. ESPN's Scott Van Pelt joined Kevin to talk NFL, NBA Finals, NHL Stanley Cup Finals, Terps' Basketball, and more.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. This from Pete in Potomac to start the show. Kevin, did you know that an NFL team can end up with just one point in a game? It's never happened, but here's how it could.

And then Pete attached the explanation from the NFL rulebook along with a video of somebody. explaining how it could happen. I will get to this very shortly. The show's presenting sponsor is Window Nation. 86690 Nation or WindowNation.com if you need new windows. They'll take good care of you when you mention my name. It starts with a free in-home estimate, no risk at all. They won't obligate you to anything and they certainly won't pressure you after they leave you with the quote.

86690 Nation or Window Nation.com. if you need new windows. Scott's going to be on the show. Scott Van Pelt starting in the next segment or maybe the segment after that. We'll see how this opening segment goes. We'll talk NBA playoffs. We'll talk NFL. We'll talk Terps hoops and probably a lot more than that. Van Pelt on the show today. So Pete, this was amazing to read. I am pretty sure I had no idea that this possibility existed. We're all getting older and maybe somebody's going to point out, yeah, Sheehan, you brought this up some caller or some email or brought this up years ago and you talked about it. I don't remember this. This was a fascinating read. Geeky, I get it,

but really interesting. Let me just make sure that before I get into the rulebook, that everybody's clear on what Pete sent me. Okay. Pete's talking about. about the possibility that an NFL game could end with a final score of 17 to 1 or 24 to 1 or 35 to 1. I bet most of you did not know that was possible. Well, guess what? It is per the NFL rule book. The NFL rule book states in Rule 11, which is the scoring section, of the playbook, section three, which is the section that deals with what they call tries, extra points, two point conversions. Article 2C, so it's 11, Rule 11, Section 3, Article 2C,

Article 2C talks about how a safety on an extra point or a two point conversion, a try would be scored. It reads as follows, If the try results in what would ordinarily be a safety against either team, one point is awarded to the opponent. So let me give you the translation of this rule. If a team lines up for, say, a two-point conversion and the throws intercepted by the defense and the guy intercepts it in the end zone comes out of the end zone or maybe he intercepts it in the field of play, but he ends up in the field of play, but then goes backwards into the end zone and is tackled. Typically, that would be a safety, two points,

on a try that would be one point awarded to the team that was attempting the conversion. Now, that would not create a situation where the team that got awarded a point could finish with one point in the game because, of course, they were trying the extra point or the two point conversion, because they had just scored a touchdown worth six points. Here is the very unlikely scenario never happened before in the NFL that could result in a team ending a game with just one point. Same setup.

It is a conversion. It's a try. It's either two-point conversion attempt or it's a kick. let's just say the kick gets blocked and the holder picks it up or maybe the quarterback kicker picks it up and instead of trying to make a play going forward for some reason they end up going backwards trying to avoid getting tackled and they go all the way back to their own end zone and get tackled in the end zone. that would be a safety on a try that would be awarded as one point to the opponent,

the team that was trying to stop the conversion. And if they don't score any other points during the game, that would be their sole point in the game. Very unlikely, you know, consider a two-point conversion. You know, it gets intercepted and on the return, the balls fumbled, picked up by the offense, and they start running around and they go backwards. They end up in their own end zone all the way down on the other side of the field. I understand. But I didn't know that this was a possibility.

It's remote. It seems really difficult for it to happen. In fact, in this video that was attached, apparently only 13 times in football history, College and the NFL has one point been awarded for a safety on a conversion attempt. But none of those were the defensive team getting awarded the point because the converting team ended up going backwards into their own end zone. Look, it's more possible since they kicked extra, since they moved the extra point back to a 37-yard kick. But, you know, you'd really have to see something like on a two-point conversion,

quarterback gets hit blindside, ball squirts out going backwards with great velocity. And here comes, you know, a wide receiver out of nowhere who picks it up, you know, at the 40-yard line, you know, the other 40-yard line, and starts trying to avoid getting tackled, and then ends up somehow getting tackled all the way back in their own end zone. I guess the block kick with, you know, the holder picking it up and running around and latering it, you know, those are all possibilities. But it's never happened. But it was a fascinating read, Pete and Potomac. Thank you for letting us know, letting me know, I would guess most of you didn't know, that it's possible for a team to end up on the wrong side of a,

a 24 to 1 final score, a 38 to 1 final score. How about this? How about a 3 to 1 final score? Can you imagine? Had no idea, man. No idea. All right. Today was OTA day number four for our football team.

And it produced the same absentee list as they had last week. no Terry, no Tunsel, and no Marshawn Latimore. I'll say what I said yesterday with Tommy, but maybe with a little bit more, you know, irritation specific to Marshawn Latimore. I don't really care that much about this, even though we have over the years certainly spent a lot of time in May and June talking about who's there and who isn't. I don't think it means that, you know, if you've got bad attendance, that the players that didn't show are going to play poorly or you're going to end up losing more games. There's no evidence at all that would indicate OTA attendance is linked with wins and losses.

But, man, you know, for Latimore, come on, man. I mean, look, if there's a personal issue and there doesn't appear to be, all right, but this is a bit annoying. It's a bit irritating. You know, this is a peak inside, you know, this guy's self-awareness level, his decision-making, you know, ability. You know, he was not healthy last year. And when he was after the trade, he wasn't very good. I don't know. If I'm him, if you're him, I think, even if OTAs aren't your thing in the past, you know, in the past, you're coming off

Pro Bowl seasons. You're established. You played really great. So a little bit more leeway, nothing has been established for this player here, except for availability issues and productivity issues. He missed time, and when he didn't miss time and he was on the field, he didn't produce. He didn't play very well. It's a new team. It's an all-in, all-hands-on-deck vibe and culture. show up and at least give the appearance that this team, your new team, and your place on it, is important to you. I'm not saying that it isn't, but, you know, Doc used to say, Doc Walker, you know, during the Chase Young missing all nine OTA days back in 2021, he said, look, not showing up for things like OTAs means you are just giving everybody.

more ammo if you don't play well. You're giving everybody a lot of reasons if you don't play well. And it just puts more pressure on you to play well. Like, you better, if you're going to not be a part of something that 87 out of 90 players are a part of, you better produce. It's just not that hard to show up for at least a few of these. Joe Witt, Jr. did have a quote today. He spoke today, so did, so did Dan Quinn. On Marshawn Latimore, he said the following. Marciaun hasn't been here. We've been in communication with him,

so when he gets here, we'll see exactly where he is from a conditioning standpoint. From a mental standpoint, the coaches that have been meeting with him, talking with him, and so he's a smart young man, but we'll see exactly where he is when he gets here. I don't know what I knew back in 2021 about the Chase Young situation, which I made very clear to all of you that missing all nine OTA days, even though they are voluntary, not mandatory, did not sit well with that coaching staff on offense or defense, the head coach or the defensive coordinator, nobody was very happy.

89 of 90, that particular summer, spring summer, showed up for all of them, and he didn't show up for one. I don't know how they feel about Latimore. I don't know that that quote from Joe Witt, Jr. is, you know, very telling as it relates to how they feel. But I would bet you they're not thrilled. Like, we traded a lot to get you here,

and it's a much better situation for you than the one you were in. And you didn't do much for us last year. You know, it wasn't your fault because of injuries. But when you were on the field, it just didn't work out. But we chalked it up to, you know, not having a lot of time to acclimate, not being super healthy. But we got a vibe and we got a culture here that we'd like you to be a part of.

And, you know, you have not established yourself yet here. there you go. The OTA dance continues. There was some other really good Joe Witt Jr. today. He can talk, man. There is no doubt about that. Here's something that he talked about that I thought was interesting. And that is the pass rush.

He expects the pass rush to improve. Here's the question and the quote. question was, how does he plan to replace the sack production from last year? Remember, Dante Fowler Jr. had 10 and a half sacks. He said, quote, I don't think going into the year anybody thought Dante was going to have 10 and a half sacks. I don't think anybody in here would have said that. And so we'll have somebody produce a higher sack total than what's thought to be. And so who that person is, I don't know. Will it be a collective of guys? I don't know, but I do feel that our pass rush will be better.

I do feel definitely that our run defense will be better too. Where will it come from? Which individual? It's too early to say, but it will come. That was from Joe Witt Jr. today. Look, just starting with that last part, where he just voluntarily, because the question was not about run defense, said our run defense will be better. You know, they got bigger.

We know that. bigger up front with Kinlau, Goldman, et cetera. I'm going to tell you what he said about Duran Payne here in a moment. But, you know, is that going to be the answer? Is it going to be year two in the system? That, you know, essentially produces the answer, that everybody's more comfortable, that they've got a better feel for their personnel. That defense is incredibly variable year to year.

There just sometimes is no, you know, actual rhyme or reason. why a defense is terrible one year and that ends up being much different the next year. We see that every year in football. But he sounds confident. And as far as sack production goes, I think, look, we're going to get to Trey Hendrickson here in a moment. I thought Dorrance Armstrong played well last year at the end of last year. I think he's a good run-stopper, pass-rusher combo. Is he lethal?

Is he a game-changer? No, but he forced a couple of fumbles. He had some sacks. He came up big, especially in those postseason games. I actually feel good about Dorrance Armstrong. I feel good in year two about Frankie Louvre and what they can do with him. But interesting quote, right, from Joe Witt Jr. The confidence, not lacking in terms of what they will be, but not a lot of specifics as to who will produce those better results? So the headline that maybe some of you saw from today was, you know, Duran Payne oriented because Joe Witt Jr. talked about Duran Payne,

and so did Dan Quinn. So he was asked about the players who look different coming back after this off season. And he said, quote, this is Joe Witt Jr. Pretty much they all want to come back in shape. It's just because of who we are and what we do. The guy that to me just looks really good, he looks intentful. Duran Payne. Man, like every day, this dude is, I'm having to tell him, hey man, let's calm down. Like I got in trouble, Joe Witt Jr. said with head coach yesterday with Dan Quinn, because I challenged the D-line and he went after it. And I said, you know, hey, Q, as in Dan Quinn,

that was my fault. I told him to do it. He did exactly what I told him to do. And so I've been really pleased with the walkthroughs, everything that we've asked him to do. And he's a leader. He doesn't talk much at all, but he is leading by example. And this year, you can really see him taking that leadership role and taking it to the next step. So I would say, say he's been the guy that's just really stood out to me for the most part. I love to hear that most of you know that I'm a Duran Payne fan. I just think him at his best, and unfortunately, we don't see his best every week. We have seen him enough now. You know, we know enough about Duran Payne to know that consistency has been the issue more than anything

else. But understand this. This dude is 28 years old. He is in the early portion, maybe the mid portion of his prime years in the NFL. He also just witnessed what happened to John Allen. He played his best during a contract year. We know that. 10 and a half sacks, 11 and a half sacks, excuse me. 11 and a half sacks during that contract year in 2022. And since that season, he's produced eight total sacks in two years.

So he has not been anywhere near what he was in 2022, but he is a physical freak. He is an athletic freak for his size and his position. Let's not forget that in 2022, and I know when the 2025 season starts, we'll be talking about three seasons ago, but he came back into that 2023 season rated as a consistent top five to top 10 defensive tackle in the league. because people around the league know what his talent level is. And this, although it's not technically a contract year, he could easily get moved on, and he could be in that no guaranteed money left situation

and looking for a place to hang his hat next year. And there are no guarantees if he doesn't have a big year that he'll find that place. So maybe this is a motivated Duran Payne. They need him to be good. They need $95. for to be a really good player. He's capable of it. I think it was interesting that Joe Witt Jr. went right to Duran Payne.

Dan Quinn was also asked about Duran Payne. He was asked actually, first of all, he said, he was asked if he values interior pressure on the defensive line more than exterior pressure. Nikki Javala from the post asked him the question. And he said, no, I would say some of it, Nikki. on defense specifically is that we'll find some roles as it goes to early down run player to, you know, more of a pass rusher who would do all the downs like somebody like Duran Payne, you know, who will be in on first down, second down, third down, all of them. So that was the first time Duran Payne's name was mentioned by Dan Quinn.

But then he was asked specifically about pain on how important he thinks this season is for Duran. and he said, quote, like you said, they're all big. I just sense there's like a space when you can feel it. It's not something that we spoke about to go. Sometimes you just, a marker happens and there's an urgent space, and you want to jump into that space. This is real Dan Quinn talk. Maybe it was where we think we can get to.

You don't know what's different for him. It might be different from, you know, he says Sam 40A's to Nicky's. he's pointing to Sam and Nikki in the, you know, over the podium. He says, but once that fires lit man, you want to. You want to hit it. I've really sensed that from him. The questions, the understanding of the defense, how good a shape he's in, he's off to an excellent start.

Dan Quinn, Joe Witt Jr. I know it's only June 4th, and I don't even have pads on. and they're not tackling people. And the other team isn't trying with game plan to fool them. But that's a good sign. These are some of the things other than the biggies, like injuries or, you know, a big trade that happens, you know, after the draft. But, you know, like I've said this before in years past,

I'm more interested in hearing the coaches talk after these OTA sessions because every once in a while, you'll learn something. You're not going to learn anything by watching a video from, you know, what happened during OTA drills. But I think we got an early takeaway that Duran Payne looks really good so far. So I'm excited about that. They need him. They absolutely need him.

And he is, you know, I think Johnny Newton's got a lot of talent. but Duran Payne is still among their interior defensive lineman. He's their most talented, and he's only 28. He still has really good football in him and ahead of him. Let's hope it starts this year. You know, one of the things that got finalized while I was out last week was Washington's pre-season schedule. And today, the team announced joint practices with two. of those preseason opponents. First of all, the preseason schedule. New England on Friday, August 8th, on the road, 7.30 p.m. Monday night,

national television, ESPN. They're even getting, you know, preseason national TV, primetime love, versus Cincinnati at home, 8 o'clock kick. And then they close like they typically do with the Ravens at home on Saturday, August 23rd at noon. That should be lovely weather. But the team announced today joint practices with both the Patriots and the Ravens. So they'll have joint practices leading into the Ravens game at the end, which is a home game, and with the Patriots up in Foxborough heading into the first preseason game. So remember the days where they could.

find anybody that wanted to join practice with them. Before we get to Scott, I'm going to come back and in the next segment talk about what ESPN's Seth Walder suggested today in terms of a big trade for Washington. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, a gift idea for dad, and it is a unique one. It's really cool, actually. The name of the product is Storyworth Memoirs. It's a way to capture dad's favorite memories for your family to keep forever. Here's how it works. Each week, StoryWorth will email your father or a loved one close to your father, a memory-provoking question that you get to help pick. Questions like, did you ever get in trouble in school? Or, you know, tell us about that senior year showdown against the arch rival.

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having a rookie at that position, but he has been really good. And they're trying to slide protection to Trey Hendrickson, but he splits the double team. Sound familiar? It should have. That was, of course, Joe Buck and Troy Aitman on Monday night football. That was week three in Cincinnati, the night that Jaden Daniels announced to the world, hey, I'm going to be pretty damn good. But that play was Trey Hendrickson, the man who would go on to lead the league in sacks with 17 and a half, getting

home against a double team to sack Jaden Daniels in the fourth quarter in a game that was still super tight at 31 to 26. We all know how that game ended up. Washington winning at 38 to 33 to get to 2 and 1 on the season. Hey, if you get a chance to rate and review this show, especially on Apple and Spotify, that is huge for us. It takes less than 60 seconds to give us up to five stars, which if you think we deserve it, that's preferred. and write a quick one to two sentence review on Apple. It's just really big for us and our advertising opportunities. If you haven't done it and you have a chance to do it, I would appreciate it. Also, follow us, especially on Apple and Spotify.

Hit the plus button or hit the follow button. That's big for us as well. So why did I come into this segment playing a Trey Hendrickson highlight? By the way, I found that on a list of Trey Hendrickson highlights from last year. He is so good. Seriously, if you're just looking at numbers and, you know, thinking, eh, he played for the Bengal or whatever you're thinking, just go watch how good he is as a pass rusher.

He is truly elite as a pass rusher. And the numbers have borne out. This is a guy that not only led the league last year in 17 with 17 and a half sacks, year two in a row with 17 and a half. So he's got 35 sacks in two years. He was second in the league in pressure rate behind Miles Garrett. But he's just a sensational pass rusher. He is impossible to keep from disrupting, you know, a play that is a drop-back passing play.

So today on ESPN.com, they had a story about three guys and trade possibilities. The three players were Kirk Cousins, Jalen Ramsey, and Trey Hendrickson. Of course, we've talked about Hendrickson a lot during this offseason, especially after Miles Garrett signed his big deal to stay in Cleveland. But you know this story. He doesn't want to be in Cincinnati because Cincinnati doesn't want to pay him. him what he believes he's worth. And right now, he's scheduled to earn $21 million next year. He wants it to be closer to $40 million. He won't get that at his age, but he's certainly going to get

eventually from somebody, whether it's Cincinnati or a team that trades for him. He's going to get top three, top four, edge rusher money. So one of these suggestions when it came to Tray Hendrickson came from Seth Walder, who has been writing for ESPN for a while. And he thought that the best deal for Trey Hendrickson would be for Washington to trade Johnny Newton, last year's second round pick, a player that's got tons of potential, but unrealized at this point. A third round pick next year, which is pretty much, you know, all they have on night two, and a 2027 seventh round pick. So Newton, a third, and a seventh for Trey Hendrickson.

So I was shocked. I put this out on Twitter. I did it on the radio show and took calls today. Overwhelmingly, people are against this. There's just no way I wouldn't do this deal. No way. And I get it. You got to pay him.

I get it. Johnny Newton might end up being a really good player for the long term. Key is elite as a pass rusher and after quarterback. You know what Super Bowl winning teams do? They get after the quarterback. And Washington at this point doesn't have one player that we know of. I mean, I love Frankie Louvo. I think Marshawn Lattimore's got a lot of talent.

I really do. But right now there's not one player defensively that keeps offensively. offensive coordinators awake all night long in planning for Washington's defense. A hundred percent, Trey Hendrickson would be a guy that you'd have to game plan for week in and week out. Here's what Seth Walter writes. He writes, Washington's in win now mode, but Dorrance Armstrong is the team's best edge rusher. Adding Hendrickson, who recorded the second best pass rush win rate last year at 24%. Again, I think that was behind Miles Garrett, would be a huge boost.

Losing Newton would make an old defense older, but the commanders have strong veteran options on the interior defensive line in Duran Payne, Javon Kinlaw, and Dietrich Wise, who can be moved inside if needed. By including Newton in the deal, the commanders can put together a feasible package without a second round pick. They lost that in their trade for Laramie Tunsell. Newton would be appealing to the Bengals as immediate help.

This to me is an absolute you do this deal. But my mindset, and maybe yours is different, is I'm trying to win the Super Bowl now. I'm trying to win the Super Bowl in 2025 or 26 when Jaden Daniels is still on his rookie contract. And I can afford to bring in a superstar pass rusher like Trey Hendrickson. even though he is 30 years old. Keep in mind, past rushers, they age well typically. You know, look at a guy right now, like Khalil Mack, as an example. Washington, somebody pointed out to me on radio.

Actually, they got it a little bit wrong, but they wrote in and said, and I'm paraphrasing at this point because I don't have it in front of me, Washington hasn't had an all-pro defensive player in 36 years. What he meant to say was they haven't had a first-team all-pro defensive player in 33 seasons. That's amazing. Brandon Sheriff in 2020 was the first first team all pro

since Matt Turk, the punter, made it in 1996. I mean, that's how bad this franchise was for a long period of time. But the last first team Associated Press, all pro defensive player for this franchise, 1992 Wilbur Marshall. Daryl Green did not make first-team all-pro after 1992. He made it in 91, not in 92 or afterwards.

Champ Bailey made his first team all-pro as a Denver Bronco. You've got to go back to Wilbur Marshall in 1992 to find Washington's last defensive first-team all-pro. Look, none of that really relates to this conversation. But the point is, if you believe what I believe, which is it's win now, it's let's go win the effing Super Bowl with this guy on a rookie contract or quarterback, and then we'll figure out down the road with the next window when he's on his first big deal, how to fix the roster so that we can continue to contend. they don't have somebody defensively that we know of right now, and maybe Joe Witt Jr's right.

Maybe it'll be somebody that we're not counting on right now. And I love Frankie Louvo. Like, I think he is a talent. And I think Louvue could end up being a star player. I do. But how about adding another star player, a guy that you know will be a star? If you don't like Hendrickson because he's not very good against the run

and stopping the run is the most important thing, Look, I'm with you. I've talked about stopping the run going back to early in the season last year, and they still ended up winning 14 games despite no ability to stop the run consistently. But we understand football, quarterback, and then getting to the quarterback. You know, I wouldn't equate this to adding Von Miller, you know, like the Rams did after, you know, a year after adding Jalen Ramsey. Trey Hendrickson is going to get a massive, massive deal, and he's going to be asked to play every down. He's not Miles Garrett. He's not T.J. Watt.

But as a pass rusher, he is, I would do that deal. This would have been, we've talked about the expense as we've gone along. Cincinnati pre-draft won at a first and, you know, a third, you know, somewhere in that general area. Washington wasn't willing to give it. other teams weren't either post-draft. You know, the confrontation between Hendrickson and the Bengals has gotten even more severe, more distance. I still personally think he'll end up a Cincinnati Bengal, but it's still in play.

And if you're telling me that it's essentially an unrealized second round pick from last year, and I love Johnny Newton. I think Johnny Newton can play. Always loved Newton in college at Illinois. a third round pick and a seventh round pick. Basically three unrealized, you know, properties for a given as an elite pass rusher for your team. I wouldn't be suggesting that the team do this if they had gone nine and eight or eight and nine last year. And Jaden was just good.

But what we got out of last year was they're recalibrating the recalibration. They traded eight draft choices for three players. Latimore Tunsell and Debo Samuel. They are much more in win now mode than in long-term thinking mode. Now, they're accomplishing both in the process. Latimore's under contract. You know, you've got Debo Samuel on a very easy, you know, low-cost deal. And Tunsel, you know, you're going to have to pay again, but elite for the position,

which is also very important. I would do this deal. I understand what Johnny Newton could be and what he might mean to the team's future. I'm trying to win the Super Bowl now. Scott Van Pelt, after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, who's hungry? I've got an idea for you. How about a pizza from one of the most iconic pizza places in the village or a cheese steak from one of Philadelphia's best?

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Windonation.com. All right. Joining me right now, Scott Van Pelt from ESPN, of course, the Scott Van Pelt show. He's going to be at every NBA finals game starting tomorrow night in Oklahoma City. We know we'll have four of them. How many more than four do you think we'll have? I think maybe I'm optimistic. I think Indiana can win games, plural. I don't know, six, let's say. Six games, but do you feel the same way I do? I think we've talked about this, but really beginning in the early portion of the second round, I just threw up my hands on you've got to be experienced to win the NBA title and just said that is clearly the best team. and I wouldn't have given the Knicks any chance to even win a game. I feel like Indiana can win a couple, like you said,

but are you with me that Oklahoma City is going to win the NBA finals? Well, yeah, I mean, we're hardly out on a limb here. Hardly. Yeah. $700. My God. Like, it's just, it's wild to see that. But then I think what you have to do is divorce yourself from all that you know

and held dear in the past, right? there's a process, and maybe the process for Oklahoma City was losing last year. Maybe that was their process. Maybe they, you know, surviving Denver and seven was their real championship. But the 68 wins in the regular season, followed by a dozen in the playoffs, a third of which have been by 30 or more. They're beating that breaks off of teams. And this is, like, you don't get to play the Wizards, all due respect.

I mean, you're not playing, you're not playing the bad teams in the NBA here. They're playing the very best that there are, and they're obliterating people. So I think Vegas, you know, 80 wins and all these margin of victories as significant as they are, the ferocity with which they play defense. I mean, clearly, Vegas season has a massive favorite. The one caveat, yes, I think Oklahoma City wins, but the one thing I do know about Indiana because they've shown it is they can make shots. They play fast, and they make shots.

So the question will be, you know, how much can Oklahoma City do to disrupt the way? Halliburton's going to try to dictate things on that end. I think if I'm Rick Carlisaw, I'm going as fast as I can all the time. Like, you and me are big college groups guys. Think Roy Williams, at Carolina back in the day, think Tom is there with Michigan State runoff made baskets. I don't care. Let's just go. Because once you're set and they start grinding you and half-court and switching off from one guy to the other,

You just don't get good looks against him. Yeah. Yeah, I had John Wall on the show about a week and a half ago, and he said, he's like, and he's, he is a hoops head, man. I mean, he is a gym rat. He loves talking basketball. And I think I mentioned this to you, but he's really gotten to be good media-wise, just mentioning it.

But he said he can't remember a team that's been that good, one through five being able to switch with so many different lineups on the floor. I mean, they got eight or nine guys where you're switching one through five. They're really good. Everyone. I'm sorry? You had Legleron to talk about it? Yeah.

I said everyone. Every guy, like everyone can switch. And I'm, legs that describe it to me like, say you're on the floor and you're trying to get a switch. And you're like, okay, well, I get, I get away from Lou Dort for a minute, you know. the Dortcher Chamber, as they call it. Okay, but then Jaylon Williams, who's got me. And then Jaylen Williams passes me off to Alex Caruso,

who's relentless. And then if you get past them, then here's Chad Holmgren with like an 11-foot wingspan behind to erase any mistakes. It's just, as a reason, you know, there's a reason why they're as dominant as they've been and why there is as big a number as they are at the window. Have you talked at all about this thing that I read about the other day that this is the first matchup in, I don't know,

25 plus years of two teams that didn't go above the luxury tax and what it means? No, I haven't really because, I mean, you've known me a long time. Kevin, I'm not that bright, okay? Stop it. I don't understand. Well, no, I mean, I'm being silly, but no, I haven't talked about it. There is something to be said for, you know, what the NBA kind of has created an ability for an OKC in Indiana to exist in this ecosystem where they're not just going to get, you know, rated at every turn.

And it is, it's new, it's different. But no, I haven't talked about it at all. I mean, I've talked about this a lot over the years that you have to literally go back to the 2004 Pistons to find an NBA champion. that didn't have debatably a top five superstar on their team. And there's been a lot of conversation about, you know, Oklahoma City in Indiana and Oklahoma City especially, you know, basically tanking. The Wizards ended up getting part of that group and Will Dawkins, etc. As their GM, they're trying to do something similar.

I mean, they ended up trading for SGA, but, you know, they accumulated all these picks. But they still ultimately, as good as they are in defense, everything you just described. I think SGA, he was the MVP, so by definition he's a top five player, but I think he is one. Do you put him into that category? Yeah, absolutely. It's semantics, I suppose. I mean, I've seen the conversation of his, is Ty Halliburton, the superstar. It's like, okay, if he's not, what's the thing that's going to get him in? What's required of him to be regarded as such? Sheaild is Alexander's ability to impact the game at his tempo, at his pace, never hurried,

always seems to be in control and dictating to his team and the opponent sort of how it's going to go. He's a superstar. He's absolutely that. He's the MVP for a reason. Now, we could, again, is it semantics or is it just what your sort of favorite flavor is, so to speak, as it relates to, is it, do you prefer Yokic? Like, do you see his impact on the game? We go, there's no one else like that guy.

Because if you do, I'd say, I agree. I agree that there's no one else like Yokic. But looking at the impact that Che has on the best team, there's zero argument from my side that you could say that the MVP and go, yeah, clearly, clearly that there's a case to be made for that. Again, I just think it's a matter of, like, anything in life, you know, which do you prefer? Yeah, the Halliburton thing, I haven't really heard the conversation, but I, I, you've got to be an MVP candidate to be considered a superstar, to be, you know, at that level. And I don't think, and I'm just going through it right now.

I mean, Shea Gillis, Gilgis Alexander finished runner up last year to Yokitian was in the top five the year before that. So what you're, yeah, what you're saying is if you're an all star, you're an all star, and that's a big group. but then like there's a VIP within the VIP that's reserved for the rarest of air, which is entirely reasonable. If that's the way you want to say it, that's fine. I certainly wouldn't tie it to titles. Well, then what is it? You're saying it's MVP?

Well, I think the reason I don't think I'd tie it to titles is that there have been players that I've thought were, you know, amongst the true superstars in the game that didn't win titles. You know, Barclay, Ewing, you know, we have a list of those players. But I guess in a sport that is so, you know, controlled more than other sports because of the number of players on the floor at any given time. Titles is a part of the conversation. So I amend what I said, but I think it's more about, you know,

are you a legitimate year-in-year-in-year-out MVP candidate? You know, are you in that conversation? And Halliburton's not been in that conversation. SGA hats. Yeah. Yes, entirely reasonable. But I, again, but we're not going to grade with such a sharp pencil to not acknowledge that Halliburton is an all-star.

It was on the Olympic team. I pointed out on the show the other night. I appreciate just the high-level self-awareness. You know, he tweeted out a picture of, like, I believe, I'm paraphrasing, it's like when you get an A on the class project, but you didn't do anything to get it. Like, he got a gold medal, but he didn't play, but here's my gold medal. You know, I thought that was funny just to sort of show his acknowledging that his role in that

was inconsequential, but he was still on the Olympic team. So I think, I think Halliburton superstar Jason, I mean, this is a chance, certainly to become that. You carry a plus 500 underdog to the title, and people are going to certainly put that name next to you. But I mean, that's a pretty heavy lift for asking, given what we all just said about, you know, The Thunder. So what do you think about this matchup in terms of how it's received, you know, television, viewers, et cetera? I've made it really clear, and I'll say it to you, what I've said on my show. I couldn't possibly care less. I really don't understand

why ratings matter to anyone other than, in this particular, particular case, our executives. Who gives the shit? Like, if you don't want to watch it, don't. And if people don't watch it, and it's great, all that means is like some, you know, Art House movie that's brilliant that just didn't have a massive audience. Doesn't mean it wasn't great, just means it didn't play to the biggest audience. I don't care at all. I expect it not to do bang up numbers, and then all the, you know, all the people that tend to make a point of the NBA ratings can do that. I made the point with Steve on our pod, Kevin, that like the World Series in the late 70s and early 80s got 40 million people. In 2003, 9 million people watched the World Series.

They had four consecutive years where the World Series had the lowest ratings it had ever had in the history of the event. 20, 21, 22, 23, 4 lowest rated World Series ever. I didn't see anybody doing any hand-wringing about the race. ratings. I didn't see any comparison to, you know. Forty-four million watched it in 78. Only nine now. Well, that's what happened. No one discussed it. And so if this doesn't rate well, then I don't know. People will say, they can say whatever they want. And I'll just say, and the NBA just got billions of dollars from all his TV partners in the last deal. So what difference does it make? I just, I don't get why people care. It has no impact on them whatsoever. People who are listening are like, oh my God, how does he not know how much you, as in me, care? I love talking about this stuff and have over the years. And I know, have you talked about the World Series?

Has it ever been a topic of conversation? Well, yeah, but I mean, obviously nothing compares to that era when you had four networks and no other options. I mean, you can't compare, you know, the 21st century of sports TV ratings to the 20th century. It's just it's apples and oranges. What people do all the time. I don't bring up the NBA rating. Yeah, I don't do that. I look at it. I think for me the, by the way, I'm completely with you. I don't give a shit if somebody, look, talking about the NBA playoffs, I joke

about it all the time with Tommy on the podcast. It's like, I can hear people fast forwarding through this part of the conversation because I know how many people. don't care about the NBA, but I do. I love it. You know I love it. I love this time of year. I think it is the biggest disparity between a regular season and postseason product and sports. Hockey's a close second. And you know, you and I both love basketball. I love it. And I don't care if anybody else watches it. And I am going to watch it. I think it's interesting always this conversation because you kind of see the landscape of what sports fans care about. And in recent years, what it's really been about more than anything else is just the locomotive

that is the NFL just completely leaving everything in the dust and just how far the separation has gotten between the NFL and every other product. But like, I think the conversation about the WNBA with Caitlin Clark the last year and a half in the number of people watching compared to men's, you know, NCAA tournament games when she was at Iowa. I find those conversations interesting, but I am with you that I don't personally care what the numbers are. It's not going to influence me and the way I view the game. I love it. I know I can't talk a lot about the NBA or you get in a little bit of trouble, but it is the NBA finals, so we should trot it out right now.

understood. What you're saying makes sense. And listen, I'm in the business, as are you. So it's interesting to me, but I would just add that equally interesting is how you have a, you could go apples to apples and say, you want to look at the graph as it relates to other sports, and the NFL is the most dominant product on television. And that includes every single show of every kind of variety that there is. It's the most dominant television programming that exists.

So it's a standalone. I'm just saying that you could make the comparison to other sports championships, and largely people don't. So that's the part that I find really kind of curious when one is a big deal made out one, and it's not out of the other. Look, you can figure it out, man. If you had New York, you'd rate higher than if you're going to have O.K.C. in Indiana. It's really not that complicated.

So the same thing happened in hockey this year. You have a couple of Canadian teams that are still in it. You have a Florida team that doesn't have a massive national following in Edmonton. So the ratings have not been massive for either us or TNT as a relate to the Stanley Cup playoffs. No hand-wringing there because it isn't. It's just the NBA that becomes this topic of conversation. Scott, for those of you who don't know, really enjoys the NHL playoffs. I do too.

But I'll concede. I mean, since the caps got eliminated, I really haven't watched much of it. But you do because the show, many nights, follows an NHL playoff game. I'm curious, are you more interested in watching the NBA finals or the Stanley Cup finals? That's a great question. I mean, it's the NBA. All right. I mean, it's the NBA for me, just because it's a sport that I can at least relate to because I've never, I can't skate.

in my life I've never stated. So I have no ability to relate to that sport. I love watching it. I admire. It's not even I'm my. I'm astounded at what these men are willing to endure to try to win the cup. Every year it blows my mind.

You know, like the end of a series will come and they're like, oh, yeah, he had to have surgery. His leg was broken. He played the playoffs of a broken leg. Like, what are you talking about? But, I mean, it's the NBA finals. So I'm more interested in that, but I would just, I would say that Connor McDavid, you don't have to be a big fan of that sport to just, it's obvious when you see him that among the world's best, he just, he looks like the kid playing, you know, when your kids are younger and there's always that one kid, you're like, oh, this guy's really, he's the different than the rest of him. Well, that's what McDavid looks like among the best in the world.

and this Florida team has been great. They've made it to the final three years in a row. Their coach is just an incredibly entertaining and interesting soundbite. So I'm really into it. But it's second to the NBA finals just because, I think in part because I'm going to be there, which I'm excited about. I've never done that.

So I'm really looking forward to being able to be a part of the environment to consume it from a front-ro seat, so to speak. But I'm definitely going to be watching. the Stanley Cup final. I mean, you and I are talking on a Wednesday afternoon. It starts tonight, and I'm excited to watch it. I think I've told you this before, and I'm pretty sure I've said it to the audience before, but I remember going to one of Alex Ovechkin's first games. It was a work-related thing, and the next day, I was doing the show, I think, with Rigo at the time. And he said, so how was the hockey game last night, and how was that young guy? And I said, I'm pretty sure the

guy's number eight because he's much bigger and skates much faster than everybody else. And that was my big takeaway from the game. And when I watched Connor McDavid, there was that game winning goal that he had in overtime. I don't actually, I don't know if it was a goal or an assist where he basically crossed somebody over Iverson style at mid-ice. It's like that guy is clearly great. You know, you can, all you got to do is be a sports fan to recognize that skill. Yeah, McDavid, clearly that guy, Kevin, that you don't need to be someone that watches every night and knows who the third line of the National Predators are to see 97 in either blue or white. He's just different. And I think that's, I think that's great for the sport to have someone that's just so obviously brilliant that you just watch them and, you know, your eyes.

drawn to them. So, I don't know, he's kind of, he's a little like of Etchkin in the sense that to truly be a great, like, everyone knows he's the best in the world, but at some point, like, do you quote-unquote have to win a title? You know, kind of, right? You made the point earlier about, like, Barclay and Ewing, I agree, but when you're, when you're this singularly talented, like, David's in that sort of Jordan-Lebron kind of thing, where, like, it's that kind of talent, you've got to get one. So, we'll see if it's now. All right. We're at that time of the year where, you know, when you do what you've done before and what you do and what I do, you're kind of making it up NFL-wise, but, you know, there's OTAs in minicamp. There is a hardcore group that gets, you know, worked up about some of the videos that come out of OTA days.

But what's interesting right now? I mean, Aaron Rogers would top my list. What is it for you? that, I mean, because Pittsburgh, they're interesting as a organization, the idea that they would sort of just be hanging out and waiting for a pretty eccentric dude to decide which way the wind's blowing, you know, like for them to be in a holding pattern. I've said all along, I presume that they're working off the idea that he'll be the guy, right? I mean, you're really going to go to a season with Mason Rudolph as your quarterback? You're going to let Wilson and Fields go? I just don't buy that. I mean, Tomlin's shown that he can win games and maintain that remarkable streak of never been under 500 with guys that aren't stars.

But, I mean, you need something more than that. So, yeah, I think Rogers, that story is interesting. I don't know if this is real in the world. weeds, but the Detroit Lions were awesome last year. And they replaced not one, but two coordinators. And they had a couple of guys in their interior line, one of whom I actually know, kind of an interesting story. It's Frank Ragnow, who's his mentor. He just retired. He just retired. And I was connected to him when he was in college at Arkansas as his father passed away, and I know Brett Bealamo well. And he knew that I lost my dad in college. And so he

just connected Frank and I, and we really kind of bonded over that. And we've been in touch his entire career. And Frank's a tremendous player. And so you think about all that eye candy and all the things that made Detroit cook, well, now you've got two coordinators that are gone. You've got two chunks of the inside of that offensive line that helped keep golf upright and help them run the ball. And their schedule is absolutely brutal, at least right now in June, when everybody's

healthy. So I'm interested to see what is Detroit? Because they were the most entertaining team, I think, in the regular season to watch play last year. I don't know that they don't take some version of a step back. I don't see how they don't, just given how much change there is within that organization. That's interesting. You've never told me that before about Frank Ragnall. When I saw that the other day, I thought to myself, man, that is, that's something that feels like it was,

was not something the Lions were prepared for. I don't know what the fallouts have been from that, but he's been a very good player. I know he's had a lot of injuries. Well, yes, and that's why I would think they probably kind of had to know because Frank played through things that, I mean, I talked earlier, Kevin, about what guys are willing to go through in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

I mean, what Frank played through. Same kind of thing. I mean, he could have gotten surgery multiple times and just kind of kept trying to be available. So I think, I mean, I don't pretend to know what he told the organization, but I can't think that a guy that's been banged up saying I'm going to step out to try to be more available for my family. And Steve pointed it out to me.

Like, I don't think Franks even 30 is like, damn, he's 29, and he's got a young family, and he's just saying, I want to be the best version of me for them, so I'm done. I mean, it seems like that's arriving earlier and earlier for a lot of people that are prioritizing their own health above, you know, being available for the team, which I don't know how anybody could knock. When you think about it, given that a lot of these guys will come into the NFL already generationally wealthy, it may happen much more, especially in a sport like football, because their lifetime earnings will be much greater than they used to be. I mean, they were going to be that way anyway, but now with getting paid in college. Yeah, the NFC is interesting to me because it is loaded. Beyond just Philadelphia, I mean, you could, there's a good debate to be had as to

whose Philadelphia's biggest threat in the NFC if you think there is a legitimate one, which I think there always is in football. What's your answer to that? I think it's deep. I mean, I don't assume San Francisco is going to just go away. they were awfully banged up. And again, you and I laugh at the idea of how your schedule is easier hard because you never know. But on paper again, in the summer, their schedule seems pretty getable.

The Rams are a team that always seem like they overperform, you know, Stafford McVeigh, and then they got a ton of young talent on defense last year. They add Adams to that offense. The entire NFC North ending, Minnesota is a question mark with McCarthy. What's he going to be? They clearly think he's ready. they let Donald walk. Chicago getting the guy that was the architect of all that fun,

eye candy in Detroit going to Chicago, within the division, that makes it an added level of intrigue, and that whole division seems like it could be decent, Green Bay is real good. So, I mean, I feel like it's a long list. I think Philadelphia is a clear, a clear favorite.

They've earned that right to say that they are, the way that they were, you know, they survived the Rams in the snow, but then, you know, they'd be washing them solidly, and then they obliterated Kansas City. So, like, I don't think it's them and everybody else. I just think it's them that's a notch beyond a bunch of a pack of crowded contenders that some of that, and no one had Washington on that list this time last year either, you know what I mean? So somebody will likely step forward that we don't know right now. So where are you on this question?

Are you all in, like I think Adam Peters and, Dan Quinn and ownership have been in this offseason. I mean, they traded for Marshawn Latimore, the trade deadline, Tunsell, Debo Samuel. They are trying to take advantage, I believe, of the Jaden Daniels rookie contract and win a Super Bowl here in the next two years. Where are you on that mode of operation, which would include the conversation that I opened with, which is, should they trade for Trey Hendrickson? Seth Walder, ESPN, had a proposed trade that was Johnny Newton, their second round pick from last year, a third rounder, and a seventh rounder for Trey Hendrickson.

Most of my callers said absolutely not. I said, yes. I said, you're in it to win it now. You can worry about somebody's future, like Johnny Newton's. You worry about that if you're nine and eight. But are you in that category of no, you don't want to keep investing in a place? players say like Drey Hendrickson, or are you, no, you've got to try to win it in 25 or 26? I'm more with you, and I like Newton a lot. I don't know if you know this, but he was actually

committed to Maryland until the time of day. And then flip the last date to, interestingly, I mentioned Brett Bealama at Illinois. Now, I think he's certainly promising, but I think Hendrickson's a guy that you're talking about who's at the top of it. He's up there with Garrett and Watt every year. If you can get that and add that to this, I think you do it. It's a dice roll. Maybe it shortens your window and ups the urgency to get it done now, but so be it. I mean, it's really hard to get into that deep end of the pool.

I mean, Washington spent 30 years trying to get back there. So I'd make it a second. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll talk some Maryland basketball and more with Scott after these words. from a few of our sponsors. It can be hard for men to deal with hair loss, even though it's common. Luckily, I'm here to provide you with a solution so you don't even have to talk about it.

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who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for details and important safety information. This segment of the shows brought to you by are good friends at My Bookie If you want to bet on sports, my recommendation is go to mybooky.com or my bookie.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. And MyBooky will give you a cash bonus on your initial deposit. They've got everything you need for the NHL Stanley Cup finals, which start tonight, the NBA finals, which start tomorrow night.

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My bookie's got it all. If you want to bet on sports, go to my bookie.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. We continue with Scott. Let's get some Maryland basketball into this conversation. It was basically two months ago that they hired Buzz Williams to be the new coach. And he had to completely remake an entire college basketball roster. and he's pretty much done it in two months.

How's he done? I'm impressed. It feels a lot like what they... I mean, I think there's an identity, clearly that his teams have, and at A&M they didn't shoot well, but they're, they'll guard you for, you know, 40 minutes, and they're going to attack the offensive class. They're going to rebound really well.

So this group, it's a ton of folks from A&M. He has a rare loyalty in an age where there isn't much that their retention rate I know is awfully high. And so a bunch of his players came with him. I think you, when you went through the year that Maryland fans went through two years ago, where Maryland just couldn't make a shot, and then you have a year like last year, were between Jacoby and Rice and Selton Miguel, mostly that trio. You saw it going a lot.

The idea of winning games 61-58 is less appealing, but I think they'll win games. I love that Buzz basically said to the fan base, look, I'm not the guy to go to happy hour with you. I'm not going to play golf

with you. I'm not going to be your buddy at at the country club. I'm paraphrasing, but I'm going to be your basketball coach. And it's like, you know, after the last guy that I think we all thought, one of us, one of us, I don't care if Buzz is one of us and does that and wants to hang out,

I want him to want to be Maryland's basketball coach and knuckle down and do the work, and he clearly has. Like, he's been grinding hard, living at the hotel away from his family, assembling a staff and a roster. And I'm up to, mystic. I mean, you know me. I tend to try to be that way when it comes to Maryland

basketball, but I think he's done an excellent job, and it'll be wild and un-n-bizard. You know, whenever they tried it out, I guess they open in Baltimore with Coppon. I mean, it'll be a coach and staff and players that are entirely new, you know? Who are you excited about? Of the additions, because you, you know, you follow this so much more closely than I do. And you know how much I love Maryland basketball, but when it comes to recruiting and portal,

like who should we at this point feel like, yeah, this dude could be a legit, you know. Well, Perel Payne is the guy. And he's the guy that folks in the league would remember because he played at Minnesota. Then he went to A&M. And then I actually saw him, I was, I have sitting with a friend of mine, got me the seat.

I was in the front row in Chicago for the Big Ten tournament, and Maryland played Indiana early, like a Wednesday, maybe it was. Right. And pain was just, like, Juja couldn't keep him under control, and he's a really good defender. And I thought, man, that guy, he's a load. And then he went to Ann Am and he got better. And if you just look at his box score in the last couple of games, he had 20-some-odd against Michigan and a big, and that's against two huge bigs, right, for them, that ate Maryland's

lunch in the Big Ten tournament. He's the guy. Now, who's the guard going to be? I don't know. Apparently, Buzz was asked who he thought could be a surprise, and they got a guy from Kansas who was a big-time score when he was in Northern Illinois, then he went to Kansas for a year. and his nickname is Diggy, D-G-G-G-Y, Diggy-Coyt, and apparently Buzz that he thinks he's going to surprise people

because he can be a bulk score. So, I mean, if they're excited enough to mention it, then sure, I'm all ears. Let me see what old Diggy can do out there. But I think Payne is a true old-school big-body presence on the block. He's going to dunk. He's going to rebound. He's going to block shots.

And it's always nice to have that. I know the modern game's different, but I think pain is a clear guy that they got, and then there's a bunch of options that could become, you know, guys as well. I don't think we knew this time last year. Rice was a total wild card. He hadn't played because he'd been injured, and we didn't know if Miguel would transfer.

He had been at, a translate, I should say, he had been at Kansas State and UCF. Yeah. I'm screwing up. Kansas State in South Florida. So we didn't know if he was going to be that kind of guy, but he was. So I imagine that, you know, Rice from,

Indiana or Watts from Washington State. I mean, I think somebody's going to be able to score it. I just, I don't know. That remains a giant question mark. I think pain is the least question mark of the group. Have you been to Oklahoma City before? Yes. My grandma was from Oklahoma.

Oh, really? When I was a young kid, I, yep, she was from Miami. Oklahoma. It's spelled like Miami, but they call up, they say Miami and Oklahoma. And so I spent some time there when I was really little. But as I said at some point when we were talking earlier, I'm going to be in the building. They say that's the best, most collegiate environment in the NBA. And so being in there to do the post game with legs and whoever comes over to the desk is going to be a lot of fun.

You know, it's kind of interesting. And my boys and I have talked about this is, you know, when you watch games in Oklahoma City or in recent years in places like Utah or Milwaukee or even Indiana, everybody complies with the dress code. You know, white out, blue out, green out, whatever it is. You would never be able to get that in the garden. When Washington was in playoff games, they tried to hand out a bunch of red t-shirts for a game,

and it was just, you know, barely scattered in spots. It is the difference between the East Coast and the Midwest, isn't it? Yeah, that's an interesting point. Like, I'd never thought about it until you said it, but the guard, trying to, like, do stripes in the gardens. Imagine, you know, like Freddie Fadnos from Brooklyn's like, Hey, I got a shirt for you right here, buddy, I'm right? It's like, I don't, I don't think you're going to get,

I don't think you're going to get a lot of folks that are going to be along for that ride in bigger East Coast cities now. And again, it's supposed to be, everyone's, said, oh, man, cannot wait for you to see you're going to love it, because they all know how I feel about, you know, like the Fogg Allen's and the cameras and, you know, our place, a few nights a year when it's as good as it gets, Breslin, you know, I could keep going, but it's apparently it's like that. So, and this is, you know, an NBA finals for a team that it's supposed to win it. So, I mean, I'm imagining that there's going to be a high level of

both energy and then I think probably angst, you know, like you want to win this one. You lose game one, and you feel like you're behind the eight ball in a big way. So I feel like Thursday is going to have a lot of, as Mad Doggwick says, got the juice. I think there's going to be some juice in the building. You know, I love them. Thanks. I'll talk to you later.

I know. I know I did it. All right, man. Great to have you back. I'm glad you're doing well. Scott Van Pelt, everybody. All right, that is it for the day back tomorrow with Tommy.