The Kevin Sheehan Show - Pitino and Pickett

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

Kevin opened the show with the report from The Fan 106.7 that Maryland's top choice to be its new basketball coach next year is Rick Pitino. Kevin talked NFL Indy Combine news and discussed some of what Martin Mayhew said today and Ron Rivera said yesterday. Kevin had former Pitt OC/QB Coach Mark Whipple on the show to talk about his time as Kenny Pickett's coach the last few years. Also, John Dahl/Exec Producer of "The Tournament" joined the show to talk about Kevin's latest favorite documentary about the history of the ACC Basketball Tournament.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Mark Whipple was the offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach at Pitt. He coached Kenny Pickett.

Mel Kuiper mocked yesterday in his latest mock draft, Kenny Pickett, to Washington at number 11. Mark Whipple, you will hear in the next segment talk about Kenny Pickett, the college player, and Kenny Pickett the projected professional player. Mark coached a lot in the NFL with the Steelers, the Browns, and has coached a lot in college over the years as well. That's in the next segment. The final segment of the show today is an interview that I recorded earlier today with John Dahl. John's one of the two executive producers of the documentary that I have recommended here recently, the tournament, the history of the

ACC men's basketball tournament, which has been airing on the ACC network. John's one of the two executive producers. John will be my guest. John was a big part of, if you recall, the Sports Century documentaries on ESPN, all the 30 for 30s, or many of the 30 for 30s. If you've watched any of the college football 150 documentary episodes, John was a significant part of that. I've just so enjoyed the first five episodes. I've actually watched six total, but I can't wait to watch the rest of it. It's been great. If you're a college basketball fan, you'll like it. If you're an ACC basketball fan, you will love it. And if you're not any one of the aforementioned, I still think you'll like it. And if not, you'll just enjoy two-thirds of the show maybe today. A quick apology yesterday for getting the show out so late. That was 100% on me. We had a technical problem that wasn't much of a technical problem. In fact, it was a very minor technical problem. I don't even think you could call it a problem.

It was a minor issue that I thought was a major issue that I could not fix. And I did not figure out how to fix until I got some help fixing it. And it was very minor. That's all I'm going to say. I was an idiot yesterday. Today, the show getting out at a more normal time, although I did wait for this first segment, which is my final segment in recording the show today

for Martin Mayhew to speak out in Indianapolis. I just wanted to make sure that nothing major came from Martin Mayhew, although I will share with you a couple of the things that he said, including his free agent priorities in terms of his own players. But I'm going to start with a report this morning on 1067 The Fans Sports Junkies show. Now 1067 The Fan is actually the Team 980s sister station now. We are both owned by the same owner. We are both managed

by the same program director. And they've obviously had a legendary quarter of a century show on 1067, The Fan. And they had news this morning that has made a lot of waves. They reported, or two of the Ford sports junkies, Jason Bishop, I know Jason well, Eric Bickle, both reported that Rick is Maryland's top choice, Maryland's number one choice to be its next men's head basketball coach. Quote, they're going hard after him right now, and there are a couple of donors that are leading the charge. He's their number one choice, closed quote. So let me respond to that. Number one, this is a credible report because it's coming from them. So I know. that they wouldn't have just thrown it out there for the sake of throwing it out there.

How do I know that? Well, basically all of us that do this sports talk radio thing, we're not in the business of being reporters and breaking news, but as I've mentioned in the past, sometimes I've had some of this stuff, we get a hold of information and we do break some news. But because it's really not our core thing, when we have it, it's almost always right or pretty close to right. If you were to keep track of any of the stuff that I've had over the years, I think probably 98% of it has been 100% accurate. And the other 2% was probably accurate in the moment.

It just didn't turn out to be exactly what I said. These are the guys, by the way, Jason in particular, who had this story of the Beth Wilkinson report recommendation that Snyder sell the team. Well, at the time, people sort of poo-pooed it, but a year later, it looks like that actually may have been her recommendation. Anyway, when I heard this this morning at the end of my radio show, I was like, hmm, because I've, you know, been talking to a lot of people, a lot of Maryland people. As many of you might imagine, this is important to me. This is something I'm really passionate about, Maryland basketball, and who the next coach is going to be. And my number one choice would be Rick Petino. Absolutely my number one choice.

I would not care about his past at all. There's so much worse in college sports these days. And with NIL and the transfer portal, it is kind of the Wild Wild West out there right now. In fact, you'll hear me mention that to Mark Whipple as part of our interview because he had to deal with that this year as a college football coach with a lot of players, a player like Kenny Pickett. But Rick Petino, you know, paid the price. He's the coach at Iona.

He's a great basketball coach. And if Maryland hired him, their season tickets would be sold out within a week. Every single game, including the games that usually have a lot of empty seats like the November and December games against terrible opponents. The building would be near packed next year. He would use the transfer portal and probably create a team next year. that would be a top 25-ish kind of tournament team. And then in years two and three,

they'd be contending for final fours. I really believe that. I think he's one of the greatest coaches of all time. I also think as a very charismatic figure, he would be just the life that this program needs to be injected with. It's not just a splash hire. I don't want that. I want a great coach, because in the Big Ten,

if you can't coach, it doesn't matter how much charisma you have. You'll get run out of this league. I mean, it is, I think, the best coached league Maryland's ever been a part of. That includes a lot of the great ACC years. It is a grind of a league with great coaches and you don't win in this league if you aren't a good coach yourself. By the way, their last coach, Mark Turgeon, was a good basketball coach. That's why he's the third winningest coached, coach over the last seven years in the Big Ten behind his own painter.

You've got to be a good coach in this league. There are too many good ones. Patino's great. And he'll also serve the purpose of injecting incredible juice into a program that right now is stale, for sure, stale. I now, on the report itself. So I hope they're right. And I hope Patino wants it, by the way. Now, I've been asking about Petino.

I've been asking about everybody. I've heard several names. Nobody, though, that I've heard that has become a frontrunner at this point. There are a lot of people that I know very well that are very well connected that really have no idea what Damon Evans is planning on doing. Damon Evans is the athletic director. Now, part of their report was they're going hard after him right now, and there are a couple of donors that are leading the charge. Well, Rick Petino is a New York guy. He's coaching in New York. He is living back in his home area, and there are a lot of big-time Maryland boosters in New York. I've mentioned this many times in the past. Maryland, even when I went to Maryland, was a huge draw.

for people from New York, New Jersey, Philly. I would say it seemed like when I was at Maryland, 50% of the student population was from Long Island, New Jersey, Northern New Jersey, Bergen County, and, you know, Southern Jersey and Philly. It just seemed like that was a big part of the student population. I don't know if it still is or not, but there are a lot of big-time boosters in New York

and big time heavy hitting boosters in New York that may have a relationship with Rick Petino. They may play golf with Rick Petino at Wingfoot, where I think he's a member. And so it wouldn't surprise me if a big time donor of the program said Patino is my number one, and I've been talking a lot to Petino about the job.

You know, something like that. I'm not saying that the report is wrong, and again, they are credible when they break news. So I'm kind of excited about it, but I will also say I'm a little bit skeptical about whether or not it leads to anything. I believe that there are people in the Maryland program that probably have Rick Petino as their number one, and perhaps even some influential people in the Maryland program. But we'll see. We'll see. Now, as far as I'm concerned, whatever negative PR would come with the hiring of Rick Petino would go away in minutes, if not seconds. He would be, to me, the home run higher right now. He's 69 years old. Now, he has said in the past that he loves coaching Iona. He was asked about, I think, Maryland.

And look, he's not going back to Louisville. There's one, Maryland and Louisville are the top two available coaching jobs so far. He can't go back to Louisville. We know that. But, you know, the other names we've talked about in the past, Andy Enfield, Ed Cooley, Kevin Willard. These are the names that are getting thrown about. And I would bet you that there are some guys in non-power five conferences that have been discussed within those that are, that are involved in the decision-making process as well.

Anyway, I would love it to be true. I hope it's true. I would bet against Rick Petino being the next head coach at Maryland. But I wouldn't bet a lot because I do think that there are some significant people in the program that probably not only want this, but they're trying to make it happen. Whether or not it would happen with the Board of Regents and anybody else that would have to sign off on it, I don't have any idea. Okay, let's get to some football.

Lots of news coming out of Indianapolis today, site of the Indy combine, which is underway. And I'm just going to rip through some of these items. First of all, Russell Wilson, according to Pete Carroll, is not available. John Schneider's gotten calls, the general manager, and he tells teams that have called Russell Wilson's not available, we're not trading him. So that from Seattle today. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but if you don't have Russell, Wilson in the building to replace Russell Wilson, and you're not intending on rebuilding starting

in 2022, then why would you trade him? That would be, you know, kind of an obvious for any football fan. It's really hard to find a Russell Wilson. And unless Russell Wilson's coming back in the form of Aaron Rogers or Deshawn Watson in a trade, or, you know, you decide we're rebuilding, which they're not because they brought Pete Carroll and his whole staff back, I don't think you're getting Russell Wilson away from Seattle. And again, as it relates to Washington, even though I don't think, well, I know that he wouldn't be opposed to playing in Washington, there are other teams that would be able to offer more.

So that's number one. Seattle essentially saying, no, he's not available. Number two, 49ers general manager John Lynch spoke today. I said yesterday, and I've said before, I said it to Jay Gruden in my interview with him last week or whenever it was, that, I don't know, part of me just thinks that Jimmy Garapolo is not going to get traded. Now, this was before the shoulder surgery report yesterday and that he's not going to be able to, you know, work out or throw until the summer. But, you know, Jay said, well, of course they're going to trade him because they're going to get a lot back for him. Well, if they were going to get a lot back for him, you know, they should trade him.

But what if the compensation they've been hearing for Jimmy Garapolo is like a second and a third, or like a third and a fourth, and it's not a first rounder? I just know Kyle loves Jimmy Garapolo, and who knows if they're sold on Trey Lance? He's under contract. They don't have to trade him. I just have this gut feel that Jimmy Garoppolo is going to be back in San Francisco. So 49ers GM John Lynch said that, you know, that there's a challenge with the Jimmy Garoppolo plan with the shoulder surgery.

He said there's concern for Jimmy's shoulder, but the 49ers have and will continue to have discussions with teams about a potential trade. But then he acknowledged the following. He said, teams need QBs and are interested in Jimmy G, but for now, Jimmy G is part of us. Closed quote. All right. Next item on the list of items. Nikki Javala from the Washington Post reported that Washington plans on picking up the fifth-year option for Montez-Swet.

When you're a first-round pick, the team, you know, signed you to a four-year deal with a fifth-year option. You get that on all first-rounders. You get the option of signing them or exercising an option to have them under contract for a lot more money than they made in their rookie deal, but for a fifth year. So you basically have control over a first-round pick for five seasons. But you've got to pick up that option before the player's fourth season. So according to Nikki Javala, Washington is going to pick up that fifth-year option on Montez Sweat. Next, almost every quarterback at the Combine, it's been reported, has met with Washington. So Malik Willis, Kenny Pickett, Matt Corral, Sam Howell, Desmond,

Ritter. Washington's going to meet with all of these people. That's not a surprise. They're meeting with every single quarterback, and those meetings are crucial. You know, what they learn with these guys is really important. I think these meetings are more important than anything else other than the tape, but the meetings are super important. So it'll be interesting to see if anybody blows them away, because maybe they haven't been blown away with the tape. Maybe they haven't been blown away with their scout reports from seeing these guys and talking to coaches, et cetera. But maybe in a one-on-one meeting, they're blown away with a guy's intelligence, football love, commitment, leadership ability, communication ability, et cetera.

Who knows? Okay. Martin Mayhew spoke today. Let me just mention a couple of the things that Ben Standing tweeted out that he said. And if there's sound on this, we'll probably play it on tomorrow's show. show. Martin Mayhew said the team would love to have free agent running back J.D. McKissick back. That's not a surprise. I think he's a priority for them. And I really think they missed him a lot down the stretch of this season. Mayhew also said that he plans to meet this week with the agents

for McKissick, Bobby McCain, and the extension eligible Terry McLaren. Remember, Terry McLaren just finished his third season in Washington, was a rookie in 19, 20 was his second year, 21 was his third year, he's entering his last year of his rookie deal because he was selected in the third round, there's no fifth year option on Terry McLorn. They got to get him signed to a long-term deal now. You don't want to see him be a free agent this time next year. Mayhew also said that Washington, planning on meeting with the agent for Landon Collins, who was a potential cap casualty. That to me is obvious that they love him.

They loved what he did when they moved him to a position that suited him, which was more of kind of an in-the-box safety, a downhill safety, aka inside linebacker. Not really, but they loved him in that role, and he played well in that role. You know, I like Landon Collins as a player. I don't love him as a true safety or a free safety, certainly, but I love how aggressive he is. I think he's a playmaker, but they can't bring him back at his current number. They've got to restructure with him, and we'll see whether or not he wants to restructure.

But I'm sure that's what the discussions with Landon Collins will be about. The other thing that Martin Mayhew said today, he unprompted praised Taylor Heineke's work last season, but then said Washington's looking to upgrade at the position. Yeah, no kidding. That's what pretty much Ron Rivera said in this first soundbite that I want to play from Ron Rivera from yesterday. So there are two cuts from Ron Rivera's presser yesterday. This first one is about the challenges that he faces in the pursuit of a quarterback, trying to find a franchise quarterback. Here's what he said.

It's very challenging. I was very fortunate in Carolina. We found a franchise quarterback right away. We drafted him. He was a big part of what we did, got us to his Super Bowl. you know, had a terrific career and unfortunately got a little derailed with the injuries in his last two years with us. But, you know, when you get that guy, it's, it makes things a lot easier. Not having that guy has really put the onus on us. You know, last year some things happened.

You know, we were trying to get into that and we lost out to the Rams. Now this year, you know, being very proactive, looking, searching, doing things we are, you know, trying to truly cover every base, you know, and I've said this, you know, there's really three. avenues to finding that guy or actually there's four. You know whether you got it on your roster, whether you can make a trade for it, whether you're out there in free agency or now the draft. I mean we're looking at all four of those things and we really are and trying to decipher and figure out it's a long process. It really is and then you're still not guaranteed anything. You know that's the truth of that I mean

for everything that's going on right now with all the you know quarterbacks potentially be traded and listening and following what's going on I mean every you hear something, you're checking into it. And so we've got to do our work. We're going to do our due diligence. It's very challenging, he said. We were very fortunate in Carolina. We found our franchise quarterback right away. We drafted him. Yeah, Cam Newton. That's why I don't know why he is put pressure on himself for this third season and even analogized this third season here in Washington to the one he had in Carolina. They're not similar in really any way. You know, there's no franchise quarterback here.

And by the way, Carolina's roster going into his third year, it was a better roster. It was a better team. It had the quarterback of the offense in Cam Newton, and it had going into his second year, Luke Keeckley on defense. So, you know, this is more of, I think, a realistic admission that, you know, we don't have that guy. You know, we, He said we got a little derailed with the injuries the last two years, but you know, when you get that guy, it makes things a lot easier. Last year, some of the things happened. You know, we were trying to get into that, but we lost out to the Rams,

you know, referring to the Matt Stafford thing. Now this year we're being very proactive, looking, searching, doing things. We're trying to truly cover every base. And this is where he said something. And then he recovered a little bit, but I thought it was interesting. Because every single time I've asked him or anybody else, asked him. On the radio show, I asked him, you know, multiple times down the stretch of the season about quarterbacks. And he said, well, you know, we've got four paths. We've got four avenues we can

travel. You know, we certainly have some guys here that are a possibility. We've got the draft. We've got free agency. We've got trades. Well, he answered this question yesterday saying, you know, I've said this, you know, there are really three avenues to finding that guy. And then he goes, actually, there's four. Whether you got it on your roster, trade for it, free agency, or draft. No, there are only three avenues to finding that guy right now. Free agency, draft, trade, period. The answer is not on the team.

You know, in John Kimes column from yesterday, he said that Washington has inquired with every NFL team about available quarterbacks and cost and that they started with a list of 42 quarterbacks, that they're going to narrow down from. 42 quarterbacks. First of all, why are you calling every team? Who would you ask about in Pittsburgh?

Is Dwayne Haskins or Mason Rudolph available? There's a little bit of a PR ploy there to kind of say, hey, we're trying really hard. We got 42 quarterbacks that are on our board. We've called all the other NFL teams to inquire about any availability and the cost of acquiring any quarterback? Well, most of the other 31 teams don't have quarterbacks that you'd truly be interested in.

Anyway, I think there's just a little bit of selling going on right now. You know, Albert Breer had that story where he pitched Washington is such a great place for a big-time quarterback. And look, I don't mind it. I'm glad that they're trying hard. I think that's the most important thing, that they are, this is clearly the priority. And that leads me to this soundbite from Ron Rivera yesterday.

He was asked about how much is too much when you trade for a quarterback. Here's what he said. Well, there's an old saying, what are you willing to pay for that major league baseball card? Whatever you pay, that's what you think the value is. So when you get into these negotiations, with another team, it's whatever they're asking for, is what you're willing to pay for, then that's what it is. I mean, to sit there and say what is or isn't, who knows? You know, does anybody really care what was traded for Matthew Stafford last year?

No. Does anybody really care what was traded for Matt Stafford last year? No, said Ron Rivera. Two things. One, a lot of people cared, actually. A lot of my callers cared. I think a lot of you cared. I remember people saying, I don't want Matt Stafford. And, you know, even if it's a third, I'm not willing to give up a third rounder for Matt Stafford. Some were like, yeah, I'll take Matt Stafford, but certainly not a first rounder. And I'm not about to do the I told you so thing, because you could do that back to me 50 times over. But I remember saying specifically, the market's going to tell you what it thinks about Matt Stafford. And it's going to be a lot more than most of you

think. And obviously it was two firsts, a third, and Jared Gough. Washington offered a first and a third. The other part of this answer is that they cared a little bit last year what the cost for Matt Stafford was because they offered a first and third, which was great, but it wasn't anywhere near enough to get them. You know, and we also heard them talk about, you know, they wanted a player or they wanted a little bit more and, you know, all the talk about mortgaging the future and then all of a sudden it became, we're going to build it from the inside out, you know, offensive line, defense line, then we'll go get the quarterback. Well, you know, I'm glad he's thinking that way now

because that's the kind of mindset that it's going to take. They have to think that way. It's their only way out of this thing. Now, they may not have a chance to acquire a quarterback like Matt Stafford this year. Probably won't. But last year, I wish the mentality had been, I don't really care what we trade for them. Let's just get them.

Because they did care. to a certain degree last year. All right, up next, Mark Whipple, he coached Kenny Pickett at the University of Pittsburgh this year, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the podcast, sponsored by My Bookie,

this Saturday night bad blood comes to a boil as Jorge Mazvedal takes on Colby Covington in the main event at UFC 272, and My Bookie is upping the stakes. Double your money on your initial deposit and back Masvedol or Covington to win via COO to take advantage of a MyBookie boosted odds payout. It's easy. It only takes a moment to sign up at MyBooky. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and you'll instantly double your first deposit.

With that extra scratch in your account, place a bet on any fight on the card, including what will absolutely be an action-packed main event. Don't miss out. Secure your MyBooky double deposit bonus today by using a little. my promo code Kevin D.C. and gear up for UFC 272. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere with my bookie. All right. I want you to listen to an interview that I did on radio about a month ago. I took this interview, which I recorded with Mark Whipple. I'll tell you who Mark is here in a moment. And I ran part of it on radio. And I never ran the entirety of the interview on the podcast, which I want to do right now. Mark coached Kenny Pickett as his offensive coordinator and quarterback's coach over the last three seasons. He's actually now at Nebraska where he left Pitt after Kenny graduated this past year,

and now he's coaching at Nebraska with Scott Frost, where he's becoming the offensive coordinator and quarterback's coach there. But Mark is a long time football coach, coaching at UMass as the head coach, two different stints coaching in the NFL in Pittsburgh with Ben Rothelberger early in his career, with the Eagles, several different jobs in college. But Mark had a chance over the last several seasons to coach Kenny Pickett, who is a possibility. And in Mel Kuyper's latest mock draft, he is Washington selection at number 11 overall. So here's my conversation from about a month ago with Mark Whipple, where I started off by asking him, you've had all this time with Kenny Pickett.

You know the pro game. You know the college game. What kind of college quarterback was he? And what kind of pro quarterback do you think he will be? Well, first and foremost, he's an awesome kid. You know, I love him dearly. Like a third son. You know, he works his tail off and carries himself with a lot of confidence

and a tremendous worker. You know, he was the captain of the team. And, you know, he was a three-time captain at Pitt. and, you know, he just a really good family, and obviously had a great career, and, you know, I finished third in the Heisman and won the ACC player of the year. So all the things that we thought he could do with another year,

you know, kind of, and he stayed healthy. He was a big key the year before he played with a, he had surgery in the middle of the season on his ankle and came back faster than anybody thought and finished the last four games, but didn't really, couldn't run around. So he just great. You know, I just, he's had a great college career,

and I think he'll carry that on to the NFL. But a lot of times the NFL, it's not, it is the quarterback without question, but it's the surrounding pieces around you. And, you know, and that will be key to any of the quarterbacks that come in, and I just kind of go back from when I had been. Robbinsburg is a rookie, and, you know, he won't rookie to the year, but we had a really good football team around him. But he made all the plays when he needed to and just grew into.

his role at Pittsburgh. I'm not saying that Kenny's at that level physically, but I think Kenny has the same makeup and the drive and the determination and leadership ability that you need. It's a quarterback position in the NFL. So let's talk about the physical attributes of Pickett, because you've touched on the leadership and the captainship, et cetera, which is I know, I'm sure something you get asked by pro coaches

and GMs all the time when it comes to those kinds of players. but physically what does he do really well and what does he need to work on for the next level? Well, you know, physically I think he compares very well to Joe Burrow. The numbers wise, height, speed, weight, all those things. And that was one thing, Kenny was a late bloomer in high school. I didn't recruit him. I was coach at UMass, but he grew a lot between his junior, year and senior year. He really was committed to Temple and then opened back his recruiting when he got

a little bit bigger. That's what I told. He's six three and a half. You know, he's 225 pounds. He's going to run like four six. So he has those things. I said that in measures with Joe. If people have called me about his hand size, I mean, they're going to nitpick in the NFL. He's got the same hand size as Joe, I believe. And, you know, and he's played in cold weather, I always thought that that was a big determination to have a coach. Oh, gosh, six years. in the AFC North was, you know, the outdoor, the climate, obviously there in Washington, you're outdoors, the weather's maybe not as severe in Pittsburgh or certainly Cleveland, but that has some stay in it.

But he can make all the throws. He's really worked diligently about deep throws, which I've always tended to like to throw it down the field, and I think he's really come through there. But I think he's got all the physical attributes. You know, he's got to stay healthy, and that obviously has to have to. to do with the kind of line and the receivers you have, but you know, I think he's going to make a great pro.

I think he'll do the right thing. I think he's really, really grown with the media when I first got there, talked to him, you know, he'd be, and I said, hey, I asked him when he was a sophomore, I said, you want to be a NFL quarterback goes, yes, absolutely. I said, and you've got to learn how to deal with the media,

and you've got to take the highs with the highs and the lows with the lows because they're going to come, and I think he's done a fabulous job with that, especially this past year where, you know, he was submerged in every single day and never complained and got there early to handle a lot of the things that were happening around him and didn't let it affect his play. And I thought he did a tremendous job

and showing his character in this NIL deal. We had never talked to him about what he was going to do, but he included his teammates and everything that he had to do with making money on the side. And I thought that was really. had a lot to do with our success of the football team at Pittsburgh last year. So in the first year of NIL, opportunities are coming his way. You know, he's being mentioned, you know, in the Heisman conversation.

I'm just curious because it's kind of the Wild Wild West out there as it relates to NIL. How does that work for somebody like him? Are people coming for him? Do you have a company that managed it? And then you said that he... Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, not really. And it was all foreign area, Lewis and Clark on an expedition.

It's what it kind of was. But all of a sudden, I just saw the article, somebody sent me, and then I talked to him. I did not talk to him about, hey, every Monday night he had a deal with a local restaurant, and he took the players of the game and the offensive line and defensive line. He had things at golf, the off week. Golf tournament asked him to come and sign autographs. He said he'd only do it.

He could bring some of his teammates or they could make money on the side, spending money and shared it with a Boys and Girls Club of Pittsburgh with taking some of those things and helping fun, you know, with toys and I think artwork and things like that. But those are all things he did on his own.

You know, he didn't come to us and all that, but, you know, he shared with those things with a teammate. And as I said, I thought that brought both sides of the football together. The defensive side, which he took some of those kids and the offensive side. And didn't make any big deal. He didn't want

any kind of publicity that was not the reason. He was just being sincere that, hey, it's always been about the team with him. And I think that's what he'll, you know, he'll continue to do. That's in his DNA all the way through. We're talking to Mark Whipple. Mark was Kenny Pickett's offensive coordinator quarterback's coach at Pitt for the last three seasons. Long time offensive coach, you know, stints with the Eagles and the Steelers and the Browns among many teams over the years. So back just quickly to some of the physical characteristics. You mentioned hand size, and it's the same size as Burrow, and Burrow got some, you know, like we see every year at the combine, right? You know, his hand size is nine or nine in a quarter. That's like the smallest

and whatever. And his hand size, you know, projected to come in smaller than Burroughs and one of the smallest of all time. How big of a deal do you think that really is to NFL guys? I always looked at it in where you played in what division. And, you know, obviously the NFC, you're going to play the Cowboys twice. That's not a problem with handsize because you're indoors. You know, obviously Washington and Philly. You know, but if you're playing in Arizona, the Cardinals, you're indoors, okay? Or you're playing in Indianapolis.

I don't think the hand size matters as much because of the weather. But I don't see it. I mean, it's he's played in Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh. He's thrown the ball, as I told the scouts, go look at the sophomore year against North Carolina on Thursday night. It was like 19 degrees. The wind was blowing. You know, the wind does blow a lot at Heinz Field. Look at the windy games.

You know, Virginia Tech was blowing 20 to 25 mile an hour went down there. They made some really good deep throws. It's kind of the same thing when I was scouting Ben Routensberger and he played bowling green at senior year. And it was in the rain and it was coming down side. and I knew the coach is on the other side, and they said, this guy's throwing ropes all over the place. And that's what Kenny's done in those situations.

I've said, you know, scouts have seen in practice in climate conditions. And, you know, Coach Narduzzi always like to go outside. So I think that was a plus, and people saw him that way. So I don't see that. But it's always a concern because, as I said to people for kids nowadays, if you want to play in the NFL, you're going to learn to play in the cold if you want to win a Super Bowl. you know, and, you know, Kansas City is not going to be warm in Buffalo and D.C.

And January is cold, so there's some things come into factor, I think. But he's a northeast kid. He's from New Jersey, and he's played at Pittsburgh. So he's been in spring practice where the wind's been blowing, and there hasn't been an issue at all. He throws a tight spiral, confident in his abilities, and, you know, I think he's going to have a really good career. So you didn't mention, you answered the things that he does well. he can make every throw. You know, I think one of the things in watching him a lot this year, correct me if I'm wrong,

but I think he has a really good sense of pressure and then the ability to extend plays and is very mobile, like athletic vision to evade pass rush, turn it into a play, whether it's a pass after extending it or a run. Do you agree with that or not? Yeah, I think early on in his career when I got to, a Piff. It was like he used his athletic ability, which is take off running.

And then we talked about it, and we worked it as the scramble drills and things there. We have some rules that in seven-on-seven or something break down, don't just take off and run. You've got a chance to make plays. And as I said the year before, he couldn't do that because he, and I think his injury helped him

that he got the ball out a little bit quicker when we had those last four games. And then this year he's really extended plays. It kept his eyes downfield, bunch of really good throws, especially down on the red zone. And I think those things, obviously, and I told me, those guys that are rushing in the NFL at the same speed as you. So you're not going to have those kind of opportunities.

But I think any quarterback, and you're seeing what Josh Allen has done, and obviously Mahomes and when Ben was young and those guys that can move a little bit, certainly is more a part of the game now than I think it used to me. You didn't mention the things that you think he's got to work on for the next level. What would those be? Well, I think that those, there are systems that are different. You know, if he gets to a team that, you know, the terminology that we used was really what I learned from Mandy Reed and Mike Holmgren and those guys in the West Coast offense. I think if he gets to a team that uses that terminology in the protection schemes, I think it will help him.

He'll study and learn. He'll do what he needs to do when I got there. I changed everything into that terminology, and he handled it without any problems and really taught those other guys, especially some of the young guys we had in the summer. Because in college, you're not allowed to be around those guys. But I just think it's just he'll handle everything well.

He's a mature kid. He's seen a lot, and he's handled the lows really well, and I think he's handled the highs very very well. And I think he's excited. I talked to him yesterday. And he's got a real excitement in his voice for the next, you know, the next path and the next chapter of his life. And I think he'll do people proud. Over the years in talking to guys like you about this particular position, people will say things like, you know, you've got to at the pro level be able to throw with anticipation.

You can't wait for a guy to get open. You've got to throw the guy open. How is Pickett on that front? No, he's great. No, he's gotten better. You know, as I said, you know, it's, I think coaching has a lot to do with it also. You know, who's he going to get? And he'll handle that well.

But, no, I mean, Dan Marino's had a pretty good career, and he broke everyone at Danny's records. So, you know, that's going in the right direction. You know, and the speed of the game always is a little bit, it don't matter who it is right away. and, you know, from speed for the preseason is a lot different than the regular season and a lot different than the playoffs.

And I think that's as, as you see, the maturation of Josh Allen. And I'm not, but I watched Josh Allen when he was a junior at Wyoming when they played BYU and kind of followed that kid just from afar. We played when I was at UMass. We played Zach Wilson twice when he was young.

I mean, Kenny's got those kind of attributes and traits, not as big as Josh, but can run around. And I think he throws the ball as well, Zach Wilson, it was the second pitch. So, you know, you kind of compare to those things. But, you know, as I said, he's done everything that you need to do. And, you know, anticipation is one thing. He'll get on the same page with the receivers.

He has a way that, you know, let's say you've got to run it this way or do it this way, which will come out. And that's really what he did with a lot of our young guys in the offseason this past year. We're talking to Mark Whipple. you've been so generous with your time. A couple more, and I'll let you run. Number one, you mentioned Joe Burrow, you just mentioned Zach Wilson,

you mentioned Josh Allen. I'm sure you get asked this a lot, and you will over the next couple of months. Who specifically will you mention as his pro-comp? You know, I don't know if that's the way

people do it. Because what I've told people, there's nobody that throws the ball the exact same way. you know, Brett Farr was a lot different than Aaron Rogers. It's a lot different than Patrick Mahomes, a lot different than Josh Allen. And there's no cookie cutter way, even though all these quarterback coaches, you know, are saying that. You have to learn to throw with different arm angles without question. And certainly that comes with adaptive to the size.

You know, it's a bit of science. If you don't, then you're going to be gone. Same with any kind of animal. So I don't, as I said, I've stood on the other sideline and seen these guys. And as I said, he's in that same category. Athletic ability, arm strength, leadership, determination, you know, tremendous background as a person, you know, and a leader of a franchise.

And so, you know, he's done all those things in a town that, you know, Pittsburgh knows it's football. And I think he was beloved and the things that he did. And the way he handled it, I think the media, and was able to, you know, as I always said, go watch the press conferences, which he did. You know, watch what happens with the Pittsburgh field.

And, you know, was able to see that firsthand since we shared a facility. So early in his career, you know, he was able to do that. I think he's taken that into his game and off field. So, you know, the guys I mentioned that have been first rounders, I think he's in that category with all the guys beforehand.

And, you know, he's not as big as Herbert. but as I said it's just the numbers two years ago we watched every one of Joe Burroughs throws from his senior year in the offseason and this guy's a lot like you and size and height and weight and all those things that way

and you know and so that's kind of probably the one guy that I say I've not seen Joe throw live but you know I just think of leadership in the league and I work with Mickey Joseph who was the receiver coach

at LSU Joe was there, we talked about it. We watched the last few weeks and kind of guys that got the things that we're doing. So, you know, it's why Joe obviously, you know, going to have a big game this weekend. What's it like for you this time of year and leading up

to the draft when you've coached and been as close as you've been to Kenny Pickett? How many conversations will you have with NFL general managers, NFL people? I don't know how many I'll have now, I mean, they've all been in. Everybody's been through.

And that was another reason I told Kenny to that I thought it would really help if he came back because during COVID time, no scouts were able to visit practice. In this past year, they were all there. Every team was there. And every team saw him, and everybody half of them said, are you kidding me?

I said, well, they see how he works, and he goes about his business, a business-like attitude. And, you know, every GM was there on that Thursday night and we play North Carolina. Right. Because of Kenny, Sam Howell.

And, you know, there was pouring rain at the end. He makes the throw to win the game on the slant. So I don't know how many of contact me. Most of them have in the off season and during the season. So I'm sure as it gets closer to the draft, everybody, there'll be some calls.

But I think they've gathered their information. And he's got a lot of, he's put a lot of work into it. And he's got a lot of faith that people can, probably the more case you have the more you can kind of be negative about it but as I said he's done all things you need to do to get to the next level all right last one um because we care about here and they've got the 11th pick in the first round how much conversation have you had with Washington and if so with whom they've been through I don't know uh I can't remember the

scout they've been through earlier in a year um at Pitt and beforehand. I said every team's been through. So, you know, whether they send the top scout or the first scout or, you know, a lot of days, there was 20 people there. So, you know, I'd have them in my room and talk to them. And so, and we're during, you know,

I spent that time for Kenny, but more of the times I was more worried about the game plan being put in play in that way. So they've been there. And, you know, I think it would be a great place for him. I think any place will be great. I know it would be nice for his family who are very supportive and close enough. So, you know, and you're in a division that's a little topsy tourby now,

up and down, but, you know, he'd do well there. I lied. One more question. Do you know much about the Washington situation? Do you know Ron Rivera? Do you know Scott Turner, the offensive coordinator, Ken Zampezee, the quarterback's coach. Do you have any familiarity with the Washington coaching staff? Yeah, Kenny, Kenny was at, you know, Kenny was at Cincinnati when I was at Steelers.

And then, you know, Ron was at, you know, before I got to the Eagles, and I'd known Ron from some of the times there. I went to, well, before the, you know, I spent a day down in Washington one day when Matt Kavanaugh was there. It was a good friend from Pitt. And, you know, Scott Turner, I believe, was a GA here. It was a GA at Pitt with my son. my sons were the Arizona Cardinals. So, you know, I've had some familiarity, but I really have not watched Washington. I know Heineke's there.

I watch He was when he was playing in college, but I haven't watched as much NFL stuff. I've just started a little bit where in recruiting now is I'll watch mostly NFL tape. I really appreciate the time. You're at Nebraska. You had that fun few years with Kenny Pickett and some really good teams and some exciting games. and some exciting games this last year. Now you're with Scott Frost. I'll tell you what, I mean, I watch a lot of college football,

and that was a heartbreak team this year. They had so many chances, you know, against good teams, Ohio State, Michigan State, and Oklahoma, and just kept coming up short. I wish you the best of luck out in Lincoln, and we'll certainly be following them next year. Thanks, Mark. I really appreciate it.

I appreciate it, Kevin. Okay, those skins. Good information from California. Kenny Pickett's offensive coordinator and quarterback's coach Mark Whipple at Pitt the last few years. They're going to be talking about Kenny Pickett's hand size from now until the draft and probably afterwards. You heard Mark Whipple's answer to that as part of the interview. Okay.

Up next, something I'm actually very much looking forward to. I've got one of the two executive producers of a documentary that I have recommended on the podcast previously, a documentary about ACC basketball, but really specifically the ACC tournament. I have watched five episodes of it so far. It's a 10-episode documentary. It has been incredible. I've really enjoyed it. And John Dahl is one of the two executive producers of the show.

And he's a local. He grew up in Rockville, Maryland, and was pretty much born into the ACC. He will be my guest right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, rate us and review us on Apple and Spotify in particular. It's very helpful. I've been telling all of you about something that I've been watching that I highly recommend, especially for you Maryland and ACC people that listen to the show. This, you know, ACC network show that.

tournament, a history of ACC men's basketball, has been phenomenal. And joining me here on the podcast to talk about it is one of the executive producers of the show, John Dahl. John has been a part of ESPN forever, the sports century stuff, all of the 30 for 30s. If you've gotten into the college 150 stuff, I've loved those documentaries. God, they've been so good, John. John was a big part of this, and he joins us right now. And I reached out to you guys because I just, I love it so much, John, as a long time.

You know, I don't know if you just have to be a college basketball fan or a sports fan to really love it. Part of me thinks that you have to kind of be a part of this ACC family to really get all the references. But it's so well done that I think anybody will enjoy it. There are several questions I have for you, but I'll start out with this. Why did you guys decide to do something on the ACC and then pick sort of the tournament to center it all around rather than just the basketball league? Well, thank you, first of all, for the high praise for the series. This is really, for me, a fulfillment of a lifelong dream because I have followed the ACC my whole life since growing up in Rockville, Maryland, until I was nine years old and later going to the University of North Carolina.

And I have just always loved ACC basketball. And so what happened was we announced that we were going to be starting the ACC Network at ESPN in 2018. And I have been working on a project at that time called College Football 150. It was about the 150 years of college football for the anniversary season in 2019. That's great. And one of the things we did during that initiative is nearly 40 hours of content was an eight-part, 12-hour history of SEC football. It's called Saturdays in the South, the history of SEC football. And I was thinking, you know, we should do something big like that for the ACC.

And I started spending more time with Aaron Cohen, a good friend of mine, very good friend of mine and colleague, a brilliant right. and producer. We would meet in Manhattan in the summer of 18 and start talking about this. And, you know, as I wanted to shape it, I was thinking, what makes the ACC unlike any other conference? And for me, it's the tournament. That's what sets the ACC apart. So I was talking Aaron about that, and we started putting together a treatment and worked on that for the rest of 18 and then pitched it internally in early 19 at the end of January. And Rosalind Durant, who ran our college networks and Stacey McCollum, who was going to lead our ACC network effort.

They loved it and just said, yes, we're going to do this, and we're going to find the money. And so that's how it was born. That's so interesting because I, so many times on my various shows that I've done over the years, I've always said that there are three kind of leagues slash divisions that are iconic and marquee and very, you know, just history driven and sort of have this sense of family about it. And it is SEC football, ACC basketball. And then this is a little bit, you know, close to home. But I think the NFC East in the NFL, even though it hasn't been, you know,

in recent years, you know, those, the four teams that have lasted, you know, the Cowboys, giant, Skins, and Eagles, there is a sense among those four fan bases and a history and a sharing and a connection that I think is unmistakable. And so I loved the Saturdays in the South thing. I love the whole college football 150 thing, all of them. The Notre Dame episode was so good. On the episode about college football on television was so great. That was my favorite. Yeah, it was so well done. And they air it often, and I find myself and my wife will walk in and say, why are you

watching this again? And I'll say, well, it's just really good. And now she's watching me watch episodes four and five in particular over and over again because those are really what I would call the Maryland episodes. And that's where I am, by the way, on the series. far. I'm through episode five, and it's so good. Okay. Thank you. So let's start with a couple of things. Who, like, there's so many cool interviewees here. You know, for me, like, just seeing

Lefty at his age, I think he's 90 years old, and he's so with it, and he's such a great storyteller still, but still a lot of the people that you've had on the show from all of the other schools. Who were your favorite interviews? Well, that's a great question. Well, starting with the Maryland guys, I got to go with Mo Howard without a doubt. He was unbelievable. Just the emotion that he showed in every respect. I always remember from the first rough cut, just seeing, you know, Mo get emotional,

talking about his father consoling him after that heartbreaking loss, NC State in the 1974 final, you know, arguably the greatest game ever played. played in Kyle's basketball history. And he was great, but so was John Lucas and so is Len Elmore. They were all great. For NC State, you know, Tom Burleson, I thought was terrific. So was Phil Spent. I thought Phil Spence was awesome.

Really good. You haven't gotten to it yet, but with North Carolina, Shaman Williams, so good in episode 8. And Charlie Scott, I think the most important interview of the entire story. series. We had to have Charlie Scott. And the way he opened up about his experiences as the ACC was integrated, starting in the mid to late 60s, to hear him and Billy Jones and Out Hartley and Charlie Davis talk about what they went through was so powerful and inspiring the way they overcame, what they overcame in terms of the racial prejudice and bigotry

that existed. And so Duke, I thought Gene Banks was fabulous, quite honestly. I really loved him. So, yeah, you know, Wally Walker was wonderful. Wally Wonderful. He was really good talking about his Virginia 76 title. So I got to tell you, you know, the John Hock, Hot Films and their team, did a fabulous job with the interviews.

They really did. And that's what helps make a series. like this. It's the interviews, people being willing to open up about their experiences, and then combining it with the wonderful footage that you unearth. It makes for a great story. Who didn't you get that you wished and tried to get? Well, there's always going to be a few. I mean, we got over 160 interviews, and most of this production was during the pandemic. So the challenges were unprecedented. And, And, you know, no matter how many people you get, there's always going to be a couple that, for whatever reason, they either just decline or just doesn't work out in the schedule.

Certainly David Thompson would have loved to have had him. Derek Wittenberg, who was helping set up a lot of our interviews. He's cousin of David, and he certainly tried, but David just wasn't interested in participating, unfortunately. John Roach, we really wanted him for the South Carolina story, which I always wanted to tell that South Carolina story. but Bobby Kremens was just so good that, you know, it made up for it, but would have loved to have had John Roach. And I would say Kenny DeNard. I think more with Kenny DeNard, it maybe was more of a scheduling issue,

just didn't end up working out in terms of the shoots that were being done, but I'm sure he would have been terrific as well. So there's always going to be a handful that it just doesn't work out. But the people who did participate, I thought, were just great. I think one of the things about being a lifelong ACC basketball fan and having it sort of in my sports rooting DNA. And I told you before we started to record this, I'm still not over Maryland not being in the ACC anymore. I mean, there have been some really cool, you know, games in the Big Ten, but it's just not the same. You know, obviously the history, the tradition.

And, you know, I get very nostalgic in, in. in thinking about it, and that's why this documentary has been so great. But I was surprised not to see or haven't seen, and it sounds like I won't see David Thompson in this. Do you feel, and I wonder how many people sort of talked about this? Obviously, you got a lot of it from Mo Howard and from Elmore, you know, et cetera, in these, you know, in episode four, where a lot, by the way, guys, the episode is really focused on, I think the unforgotten rivalry in the ACC, which was Maryland and NC State in the 70s. I mean, they played on Super Bowl Sunday for several years in a row.

It was a massive Titanic national matchup. But David Thompson, do you agree? And did you get a lot of this from other players that people feel he is the greatest player in the history of the league and that it's really not that debatable? Well, yeah, to the largely agree, I would say that there is. is a feeling of that. No doubt about it. David Thompson was a game changer for the conference. As great as Charlie Scott was, and he was phenomenal. The conference hadn't quite seen a player like David Thompson. The way he could elevate was incredible.

The story, of course, Phil Smith talks about making change at the top of the backboard, jumping up there and putting down four quarters for a dollar. That's a legendary story. Yeah. It is. It is. And he was. somebody that Michael Jordan looked up to and wanted to be like when I think Michael was growing up. So, you know, I think there was a list done around the 50th anniversary, and Michael was rated ahead of David. They're both great players. There's been so many wonderful players in ACC history.

Of course, Len bias. I mean, we can't forget about Len bias. What he did, leading Maryland and lefty finally to a title in 84. That was just Len's sophomore year. And then he played two more years. My senior year at Carolina, he had an incredible game in Chapel Hill in the Dean Smith Center to leave Maryland to an upset over Carolina. And I was right there to witness it firsthand. And it's just so tragic what happened just a few months later with his death.

And, you know, there's been a lot of terrific players, but certainly those are three that immediately come to mind for me. But there's so many others, you know, from the. different decades that really had such an influence on the ACC's growth. So I, I, too, like the first two episodes are great. They're so well done. Don't get me wrong with what I'm about to say, but it's so well before my time, and it's really about the formation of the league and the significance of people like Everett Case and Frank McGuire, et cetera.

You know, for me, that episode that you talked about, which was episode three with Charlie Scott, you know, is really, It's incredible in how significant Charlie Scott was to the league, even though he was not the first black player to play in the ACC. That player was played at the northernmost school. But episode four where you've got a lot on the Maryland NC State and the 74 ACC tournament final, there was so much in there that I thought was new to me. And I consider myself to be like somebody who really remembers a lot about that

The rivalry between Elmore and Burleson, and the quote from Elmore after a regular season game that he had dominated Burleson, even though they had lost the game, I thought was great. But how much of that game did you guys spend time on? It was obviously a big part of that episode, and how significant do you think that game was to the league's growth and popularity? I think it was enormously significant. Now, during that time, I had left America. My family had moved to South Florida. My dad was transferred. He worked for Gold Bond building products, and we were transferred to South Florida.

So it was out of the ACC footprint for the 74, 75, and 76 finals. And that was tough. I just had to learn the score like through local news. And I was just, I was crushed. Marilyn lost that game. But that game was incredibly influential because, you know, the next year, the NCAA tournament decided, you know, we just can't have only one team from a conference. in our tournament. We've got to expand a little bit here.

So I think Maryland, who arguably could have won the national championship in 1974 easily, but didn't even go to the NCAA tournament. For 21 years, the ACC only had one birth in the NCAA tournament, and that was determined in the ACC tournament. And that made it such a pressure cooker, enormous pressure that I think you felt as a fan watching, and certainly players and coaches felt it. So you look at that game, no shock clock, no three-point line,

Final score 103 100 in overtime. I mean, my gosh, what a game. Both teams were at their best. And we, you know, as we laid out the 10 episodes, this is originally going to be six parts, nine hours. And then after I saw a first rough cut of the first episode, I was like, there's going to be too much left on the cutting room floor. We got to do more with this. And I was just coming off the last dance and we had 10 parts, 10 hours. I'm like, we should do that here.

I talked to John Hock and I'm like, John, let's expand this. to 10 parts, 10 hours. And to his credit, he was like, yeah, let's do it. And he wasn't worried about money or anything. It was about let's just tell the best story. And we agreed on that. And, you know, so as we laid out the episode, it wasn't like, okay, we'll just go an even number of years in each episode.

We would pick ends and outs of periods where we thought that was what a certain story, a certain narrative kind of held together. And we devoted, you know, an entire episode. one hour to just two years, 73, 74, because that's how important NC State and Maryland were and that rivalry to the future of the conference, the Super Bowl Sunday game. I remember that as a little kid vividly. That was the day that Miami ended up finishing their undefeating the Redskins to the Super Bowl. It was huge.

And just those battles were epic. And it had such an influence we talked about in the episode. Maryland helped invent midnight madness. Mo Howard and Lefney-Jurzel basically came up with Midnight Madness. That he came with Staples College basketball. There's so much that that game had in terms of the future of the sport that we felt we just needed to devote entire episode to the drama.

You mentioned the Mo Howard where he breaks down in tears and talking about the game. I also thought, and for me, like as a kid, John Lucas was just my favorite player. I mean, these are the first years, I remember. You know, something that you didn't include in that episode, not that I'm suggesting that you should have, but what was really interesting about the 73-74 season is that Maryland opened up that season at UCLA. On, you know, like a Friday night in December. And, you know, after a lefty had claimed that he was going to build the UCLA of the East,

they scheduled that game. I think Maryland was number three in the country. UCLA was one. and Maryland lost that game by a point. UCLA would then that year lose to Notre Dame for that long winning streak to end, but they also ultimately lost in the national semifinals to NC State when NC State won the tournament. But that regular season, I think, really was significant for college basketball altogether because it became the first year of not UCLA.

because the sport was basically UCLA and everybody else. And I'm wondering if you think that that was really the beginning, that season specifically, of college basketball starting to become like this meteoric rise to incredible popularity. Yeah, I think that's probably right. Because UCLA had won seven titles in a row, and then 74, they're stopped. And, you know, I do remember that Maryland UCLA game only because I remember, like, wanting to get the score of it. Again, this is way before cable really even got started, let alone streaming and all that. And you just, you know, a late game on the West Coast, I had to, you know, get the score, you know, sometime the next day or two.

I was living in Florida by that point by the start of the 73, 74 season. So, yeah, I think when you look at it, even though UCLA won the title in 75 and wouldn't last. game, John Wooden's last game. I do think there's a great case to be made that it started the next era of college basketball in 74 with NC State breaking through and beating UCLA after Notre Dame had stopped that 88 game when you streak during the regular season. And, you know, I think that's just, you know, what we saw in the ACC help fuel the future of the sport that really exploded, I would say, in the 80s.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the popularity of the ACC, all of a sudden you had the formation of the Big East and then everything was off and running. That's so funny. You know, you grow up here and then you leave before it really takes off. You know, Maryland opened up that season, losing the UCLA by a point. A week later, or two weeks later, NC State played UCLA in St. Louis, Missouri in a made-for-TV game and blew out NC State. but then NC State eventually got revenge. As you mentioned, and I think a long-time ACC basketball fans know,

the 74 ACC final created the Maryland rule, which was the expansion of the NCAA tournament allowing more than one team from each league. Because Maryland would have more likely than not given Lefty a final for that particular year had it happened. But I started and I got sidetracked there. But one of my favorite interviews was just John Lucas. You know, Lucas was my favorite player, and Lucas saying that he's never watched that game. And think about Lucas's life, you know, NBA player, drug problems, drug rehab center that he's built. He's helped so many people.

And that game still, you could tell, really stings, right? No doubt about it. What was striking to me, right from the first rough cut that episode, was like, it felt like this game just happened about a week ago. I mean, the emotions are still so raw, you know, with Elmore and with Mo Howard and with John Lucas. Lucas is still mad at Mo Howard for not taking the shot at the end of regulation. He just still can't believe it. And talking about the pain of not being able to watch that game since.

And, yeah, I thought John Lucas was terrific in his interview and an even better player. I mean, what a fun player to watch a brilliant player he was. and back in the day when guys stayed four years. So you got four years at John Lucas at Maryland. He was just outstanding. I'm curious. I mean, obviously Dean Smith

passed many, many years ago. And I never considered Dean to be the best of interviews or the most charismatic figure, even though as a longtime ACC fan, I think he's the greatest coach in the history of the league. What do you, I mean, you know, enough about the league and you were affiliated with it in Maryland until you were nine and then going

to Carolina and Chapel Hill and witnessing, by the way, the bias game in 86 at the Dean Dome. But what kind of guest for this do you think Dean Smith would have been? I'm just curious if you have a thought on that. I think he would have been good with more time and distance from being in the middle of coaching. You know, when he's coaching, he's going to, you know, choose his words carefully. and D. He was so unselfish. It was about the players, you know, and he didn't want credit. He didn't want attention.

I was around Dean Smith for my four years at North Carolina, and he always deflected to those that he wanted to give credit to. He was always ready to step up and take the blame for a loss, but he wanted the players to have the credit for all the good things. And it just speaks to the man. He was such an incredible man. Now, I think it was important to us, you know, in this series it's very important to me, to make sure we humanize Dean Smith.

You know, he's a human being, just like everybody. And so I wanted to make sure through it all that the players, you know, who wanted to prove something to Dean, who felt like he slighted them in some way, got their chance to, you know, voice that, you know, from Jack Marin expressing his disgust over Dean's four corners in the 66 ACC tournament. He says, that was Dean. John Sally coming up in episode seven talking about how he wanted to play at Carolina, wanted to be in the baby blues, but Dean Smith didn't recruit him, but John Roach,

I guess, feel a little trash talking to Dean Smith. Lee Deadman seems still mad about that. I wanted to make sure that Dean Smith was presented as a human being, because I think that is what makes it so powerful when Shaman Williams in episode 8 talks about the personal relationship with Dean and how Dean believed in him when nobody else did. And, you know, Dean was an innovator, the Four Corners. I personally did not like the Four Corners. I didn't like stalling.

I wanted a shock, because I was a little kid, I'll never forget my seventh birthday, being allowed to stay up late and watch Maryland, South Carolina. At that time, South Carolina is like number two in the country. And Maryland left, he decided to hold the ball. And I was so upset. I didn't even stay up to watch the rest of the game because I was like, mad, Maryland was holding it, which was to their advantage, by the way. And it worked because Maryland won the game like 31-30 or whatever.

Jim O'Brien. Yeah, Jim O'Brien. And I got the score the next day. My dad wrote it on his old bomb building product, notepaper next to my bed. I'd wake up and see the final score. So I'd never been a fan of holding the ball. I think that Virginia Carolina game in 82 was kind of the last straw for that.

And we saw a shot clock come in in the ACC. right after that in the 82-83 season. But, you know, it also could be an offensive attack with Phil Ford. I mean, Phil Ford was the maestro of the four corners, and he made it an very aggressive type of approach. But, you know, in the end, D. Smith wasn't fighting the rule changes, by the way. You know, when the shot clock came along and at a three-point line, he was ready to adjust.

I mean, he was just a brilliant coach. And, you know, and he led us to Roy Williams, and Roy Williams, a brilliant coach in his own right. So the influence Dean Smith had over the entire conference, you can see in our 10-part, 10-hour series here, that Dean Smith is there, is present throughout, you know, almost right from beginning to end. Just, it's so funny because as a Maryland guy and as, you know,

and I think this gets pointed out a couple of times in the episodes that I've watched, actually I'm realizing, I skipped ahead. because I did watch episode seven because I wanted to see how much you had on lefty winning the 84 tournament. And that was awesome. But it's like I have, and I remember, my father was a basketball coach. And so Dean Smith, even though I hated Carolina with a passion, and we were kind of the northern redheaded stepchild of the league. You know, and they point that out about coming to Greensboro and how it was a road game.

I mean, it's funny, I had Gary Williams on my podcast last week, and they were celebrating last weekend the 20-year anniversary of the 2002 National Championship game, and Gary made this admission, and he's never told me this before, but he said, you know, I never treated the ACC tournament with the way I should have. I always felt like we were the outsider, that these were road games, and until we won it in 2004, I don't think I ever realized. how important it really was. And I'll tell you, as a Maryland fan,

after the national championship game, the ACC title in 2004, beating Duke, and I don't know how much you have on that in future episodes, is probably the second greatest thrill along with going to the first final four, winning the Elite 8 over Stanford in 2000,

that a Maryland basketball fans probably ever had. I don't know where I was going with this, but I guess I wanted to get to this point. I read this quote from your executive producer on this show, Larry Weitzman. He wrote, quote. Yeah, he's a director on it. Yeah. The director.

Yeah. John Hock and I are executive producer, Larry, the director on it and done a terrific job. Yeah, director is what I meant to say. I read this quote. He said, while diving into ACC history, one of the things that was so fascinating was how much of a family story it is. the players and coaches all know each other intimately. The intensity of the competition feels like sibling rivalry. All we had to do was sit down with the wonderful characters who have created ACC lore,

and the stories and the passion just poured out. The challenge wasn't finding enough fascinating material. The struggle was which amazing stories we would have to leave out, closed quote. You've already referenced kind of what was left on the cutting floor. So which were the amazing stories that got left on the cutting floor that you didn't get to tell? Well, with a project like this, even it sounds crazy, doesn't it? You've got, you know, 500 minutes, over 500 minutes to tell the story because it's about 51, 52 minutes per episode of content, not counting the commercial. So it's over 500 minutes.

And yet you still have to leave things out, you know? And we said it from the beginning. We wouldn't cover every single ACC tournament because in the end it's about a narrative. We're telling stories. It's larger themes that we're exploring. So sometimes a tournament just doesn't really kind of fit into where we're going with the larger story. And so, you know, 58, Maryland's first title in the ACC, and we didn't cover it with Bob Milliken, NC State in 59, Carolina, Virginia in 77. You know, Carolina and Virginia had just met in 76.

and we had other stories that we needed to prioritize in that episode of five. You know, we had to certainly cover Phil Ford, Carolina in 75, Virginia, and Wally Walker in 76, Duke with Gene Banks, Bernarcklen, Jiminsky, and 78. The most controversial finish arguably in ACC tournament history, the 1980 final between Duke and Maryland when Kenny DeNardt, Hunter Cutt's Buck Williams, going for the tip-in. So there's going to be things you have to leave out from time to time. We didn't do the 87 final, for example. You know, I would say maybe the toughest cut for us was the story of the passing during season of Tony Rutland's mother at Wake Forest. When Wake Forest was going for the first two titles in the mid-90s, that was in Rough Cut. But ultimately, just for timing issues, it ended up falling out.

And that was a tough one to let go of. And that's going to happen. or what it's, you know, ultimately, you know, when you're gathering all this wonderful material, and Larry's so right about turning on the cameras and just kidding this fascinating stories, that you're just going to get, you know, an embarrassment of riches and not everything's going to make it. By the way, when you mentioned Phil Ford's Four Corners, you know, the 83, you know, NC State run through the ACC tournament, which led to their NCAA tournament run, you know, with a, you know, by the way, beat Virginia again in the Elite 8.

If you ever watch those games, and I'm assuming that they're, you know, this is the next episode that I've got to watch, which is, I think, you know, you'll get into the 80, you know, the early 80s before 84, because that was the one I skipped ahead and watched. But the three point line was just a joke, you know, in 83 when they were experimenting the ACC was with three-point line. I mean, the actual line cuts through the top of the key. And it's really incredible to think that they played with a three-point line for that one

season, I think it was just one season, that was so ridiculously short. And it took so long to stop Carolina from, you know, to get a shot clock in there. And you're right, that 82 final was the, that was the one because they held the ball with James Worthy and Michael Jordan. and it was UVA and Samson against Carolina, and we watched Carolina basically burn six minutes o'clock in the second half, I think, something like that. But did you notice just how ridiculously short that three-point line was

when they tried it in 83? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I wish that line was in existence when I was playing. And if I'm coming in, maybe I could have a career as a basketball player because I did have a good outside shot growing up, but we didn't have a three-pointer quite. Yeah, and that was my freshman year at Carolina. And, yeah, it was very short.

I mean, I feel like Derek Wittenberg about Derek and I've become good friends. I covered that state team as a freshman at the Chapel Hill newspaper in 83. You know, he wasn't shooting from that far out. I mean, come on. Those three pointers were pretty darn close. But it was, you know, it was a radical shift that was happening. And sometimes, you know, you go through different iterations. of rule changes until you settle on something that feels right.

And so, yeah, the three-point line was a little too close at the beginning in the ACC, but eventually figured it out. All right. Tell me, just give me a preview of what I've got upcoming. I'm assuming it's a lot about Kay and the Duke teams and the Duke Carolina rivalry maybe even gets built up a little bit more. Tell me what's coming up in these last few episodes. Well, you know, you've got the story, of course, of Jim Valvano and AC State 83.

Episode 7 really focuses on the redemption stories of Lefty-Jurzell and Bobby Cremens, each finally winning that long coveted title. I was actually at the 84 ACC Term as my first ever ACC tournament to attend in person. I was a production assistant for the Tar Heel Sports Network. also happened to be Michael Jordan last year playing at Carolina. What a year to see almost every game. And it just felt apropos somehow that I would be there to witness lefty finally winning the ACC championship because Carolina got upset in the semifinals I do.

So that one stands out for me. Certainly Bobby Cremont's story after 1970, the heartbreak at South Carolina when the ball was stolen away by Ed Lefich, and they was lost to an NC State team that was really inferior to South Carolina that year. South Carolina had gone undefeated in the conference and could have been a threat to upend UCLA's streak of national championships in 1970. Duke Carolina rivalry really heats up in that episode.

Episode 8, you know, the early 90s, it's Tech, it's Duke, it's Carolina, and then the Wake Forest story. Such a good story with Randolph Childress and Duncan, Dave Odom. You know, Dave Odom, we established certain characters throughout the narrative, Dave Odom's one of them. You know, he went as a kid,

tells you exactly where he was sitting, listens to the games on the radio, eventually becomes an assistant coach, and now the big payoff, as a head coach at Wake Forest, finally wins Wake Forest to title for the first time in 33 years in 1995, and then they repeat in 96. So Dave Odom, great story there,

and Shaman William and Dean Smith's final ACC tournament title in 97. Just so powerful. Episode 9, we really get more into, Duke just dominates. I mean, you know, they won five in a row, then they lost one, and they won a couple more, seven and eight years. So the JJ Reddick story,

the all-time leading scorer in ACC tournament history, we tell the story, Tyler Hansborough, and Roy Williams. We do focus a little bit on Maryland in 2004, interrupting Duke's run with John Gilchrist and Gary Williams. So that is covered, and what that 2004 title meant to Gary Williams, John Finstein, captures that really well. And then the final episode, of course, so many changes the ACC talked about Maryland leaving the conference.

Tom McMillan talks about voting to try to keep Maryland in. He was on the reason. He voted to want Maryland to stay, but Maryland left for the Big Ten. But new schools come in. Mike Gray's story is really good. Family connections, going back to his uncle, Jackie was on the 1960 Duke team. Mike Bray got to know lefty real well. He grew up in Rockville, Maryland, just like I did.

So it meant so much to Mike Bray. You think, oh, Notre Dame, you know, not a traditional ACC school, but Mike Bray's story makes it so personal to the history of the ACC. Leonard Hamilton, the first African-American head coach to win an ACC championship at Florida State. We hit on that, Jim Larenaga, who was an assistant for Terry Holland at Virginia, like in 83 when Virginia got beat by NC State. Lerenega now at Miami wins a title. And, of course, Tony Bennett at Virginia.

And we really end the narrative with 2020. The ACC tournament couldn't be finished because of the coronavirus because of COVID-19 emerging at that exact time. And they start the ACC tournament and it's stopped right before the quarterfinal. It's just shocking, just like the whole experience of what COVID meant to the world. Everybody was just trying to understand what was going on. And that really is our stopping point in the narrative to bring it to a finish of more. than ever we realized through it all what the ACC tournament has meant to our lives for decades. You've done so many iconic documentaries in your career. What's the reaction been to this one?

It's been terrific. It has been just not only praising the quality, which means a lot to all of us working at the John Hock and the Hock film teams to myself, because it's what the ACC has meant to me personally throughout my life, but also just the appreciation that we did this. I mean, nobody ever has done anything like this, not even close. And, you know, at ESPN, I'm always trying to find projects to do that nobody's ever done. You know, try to do something different. Try to cut through. And I just spent an appreciation that we made this happen and told it this way. And for us, for me personally, it has meant a lot. I mean, the people who have covered the ACC, see all the great writers and broadcasters that I've been around early in my career and the fans,

the players, the coaches, the administrators. You want to feel like you do it justice. You want to get this right. And it's such a privilege. It feels like such an honor to have the opportunity to tell this story. And the hot film team, they've been so great to work with. And it's really been incredibly rewarding to see how people have responded already. Well, it's so well done. I really am enjoying it. It makes me so nostalgic for, you know, to have the ACC the way it used to be, because obviously these leagues are nothing, you know, the ACC is nothing like, you know, the stories that you've told of the ACC, the way we consider the ACC, the founding schools. Like to me, once it started with B.C. in Miami, it's ceased to be the real ACC.

anymore and now it's ridiculous with Siri. I mean, when Maryland left, they had given Pitt as Maryland's crossover rival. I mean, that was a major slap in the face. But, man, it's so well done, John. It's so good. And as I've said, I've mentioned it a couple of times already on the podcast and on the radio show. For anybody that's an ACC, long-time ACC basketball fan, this is absolute must watch. best of luck with it. I really appreciate it.

And we'll talk soon maybe at some point down the road when this thing is over. I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions when I finish it. Okay. Bring them on. And thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And it's nice to hear how much you've enjoyed it. My pleasure. All right. That's it for the day. Back tomorrow.