The Kevin Sheehan Show - "Proud" of the Redskins

Episode Date: August 12, 2019

Kevin opened the show with another Washington Post poll on the Redskins name. He talked Su'a Cravens tweets and a theory on the Trent Williams hold out. He was then joined by Ben Standig/The Athletic to talk about the Skins who wrapped up camp in Richmond yesterday. He finished up with the Nats-Mets weekend madness. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right. I'm here. Aaron's here. This show this morning is brought to you by stamps.com. You know, one of the things I figured out about this podcast versus the radio show, Aaron, is that things happen between the time the radio show ends and the time we begin to record the podcast. Like this morning, Sue Kravins went Twitter crazy. And it must have happened late in the radio show and I just didn't pick up on it maybe or it was right after. But one of the reasons this podcast will become, you know, different in content is we'll be able to react to the things that happen after the radio show. Remember, between 7 and 10 a.m. in the morning, not much is going on in the media. Not much is getting reported.

But right around, you know, 9 a.m., 9.30, 10, that's when stuff starts to come out. So that'll be one of the things we'll be able to do on the podcast. And I'm going to go through all of Sue Craven's tweets this morning about the Redskins because he's not happy with him. Nobody seems to be that happy with the Redskins. But their former second round pick from Southern Cal really not happy with the Redskins. We'll get to that in a little bit. Albert Breer also tweeted out some information about a conversation that he had with Jay Gruden. So we'll talk about that as well a little bit.

I wanted to start with something that I started the radio show with. So for those that missed it on the radio show, you'll catch it here. Because it was interesting. I had multiple people over the weekend tweet me the link to this Washington Post story about the Redskins name. Aaron, did you see it? I'm not sure if I saw this specific one. I saw a few things.

Well, if you recall, back in 2016, the Post conducted a poll of 500 or so Native Americans, which produced, I'm sure, surprising results for the Washington Post. The results being that 9 out of 10 Native Americans polled were not offended by the team's name. That was the first poll that had been done in like 12 years with actual Native Americans. There was polling of NFL fans and non-Native Americans, but that was the first poll that really was conducted in part to prove that the Annenberg study or poll that was done, in 2004, which had produced similar results, was outdated. I think the Post had these feelings

that that poll was in 2004. The feeling of Native Americans over the last 12 years has changed, and they conducted a poll, I think, expecting that the results would be much different, but they weren't. The results hadn't changed at all. And the conversation about the team name, it didn't die necessarily with the 2016 post poll, although I think a lot of people on the side of this name is offensive, they need to change the name, did realize that, you know, this poll wasn't conducted in 2016 by Fox News. It was conducted by, you know, a very liberal-leaning newspaper that was probably predisposed to hoping, you know, throughout the paper as a majority, that the results were significantly different than the results that had been produced by the Annenberg Study 12th.

years earlier. But it didn't, and the conversation quieted, at least publicly, from a lot of the media people that had really been, you know, had made it sort of a mission to get the team's name changed. In fact, Robert McCartney, who was a columnist for the post, and had been urging for years the team to change its name. After that 2016 poll came out, he declared in an op-ed, I guess, that he was dropping his protest of the Washington football team name based on the results of that poll. So anyway, that was the background for another poll that was just conducted recently. And the results, or at least the headline of the results, came out the other day. And a lot of you tweeted me the link to it and said, what do you make of this?

And this one, this particular poll also conducted by the Washington Post, attempted to get more specific about how Native Americans felt when they heard the name Redskins. It wasn't just a question to say, are you offended by the team name? Yes or no. It was how do you feel about the team's name? And the poll asked, I guess, 500 people who identified themselves as Native Americans,

and they gave them a list of words to choose to describe how they felt about the team's name. About 40 words, you know, 40, emotions, you know, words to describe the team's name. And the word picked more than any other word of the options was proud. Proud. I mean, when I read that this week and I just thought, oh my God, these people who have made this, their mission to, you know, make people feel so guilty about using the name and constantly talking about it being a definition. a dictionary defined racial slur.

And my God, you all are bigots and you're racist and you're hateful for continuing to promote the usage of this name or use it yourself. And this team is a terrible racist organization using this name. And the word that Native Americans who were polled said they thought of most when they heard the word Redskins was proud.

Now, I haven't seen the actual percentage breakdown of how many of the respondents to the poll picked Proud versus the other choices. I'd love to see the numbers. There were 40 words given as options. I'd be interested in knowing, like, you know, what the numbers were. Now, in a column following up on the poll, it was indicated that number two after Proud was indifferent, number three was annoyed, and then came content, satisfied, and disappointed. So that was the order of it.

And by the way, that is also a reflection of something that I've always acknowledged, and that is that some Native Americans find it offensive, or some Native Americans find it to be a pejorative term. All right? I just know that I have been for many, many years, on the radio, on this podcast, wherever. I have always said, look, this is a very great, gray situation. It's not black, it's not white, it's not red. You know, this is really a very

gray discussion. It's a debatable discussion at the very least. And I was always off put by those that said, no, no, no, no, this isn't debatable, this isn't gray. It's not something you should ever doubt. And they wanted you, whether it was Bob Costas or Peter King or my friend Mike Wise, who certainly has been, you know, written, you know, many times about this, they really wanted you, or some of them wanted you, to trust them that the R word was the N word and just move on. Accept it, trust them that this is what it was. This was the analogy. It's just as bad as the N word. We need it changed. And all I said all along, as a, yes, I am pro name, but I was pro name with an open mind. All I wanted was more than just Bob Costas's word, that it was offensive

to Native Americans, that it was this terribly hurtful word towards an entire race and culture. And trust me, if Costas and Peter King and the others that were very public in their position about the name needing to be changed, if they had provided me with more proof, I was always open to supporting their side. I would never want to know that, you know, using the word redskins, singing hail to the redskins, cheering for the redskins at home or in a stadium or with a group of people, I would never want to know that it was hurtful to an entire group or an entire culture. This was the dilemma, by the way, for many of us who would never use the word redskins in any way other than to describe the football team that played in Washington. And yet,

many of us were put in a position to feel guilty about using the word by a lot of people in the media who really pushed it that, you know, when you use the name, they said you were a borderline racist and you were a terrible person for using this name. It was incredibly hurtful to a large group of Native Americans. And by the way, I acknowledge that in many dictionaries, it has been indeed defined as a racially offensive term. But the data available never supported the dictionary definition. You know, there was the Annenberg study that showed nine out of ten Native Americans weren't offended by the name. And then the post study. And for me, the biggest disconnect for so long was that there were high schools, many of them in the country, that were majority Native American

that used Redskins as their school nickname for their sports teams. That was a huge disconnect for me. That always made me think, wait a minute, how can the other side be so adamant about this? And yet Native Americans themselves are using this name and they're proud of it. Like how could it be so, how could it be the N-word if actual majority Native American high schools are using the name? Like, can you think of one high school majority African American that uses the N-word as their team's nickname? Come on. They're not analogous. There's nothing even close to analogous about those two words.

The high school in Oklahoma that I was pointed to, Kingston High School, the school in Arizona, whose name escapes me, the one that I remember more than any other, and it's still, they still have Redskins as their school nickname, is a school in the state of Washington, well-pin it, high school, 91.2% Native American. And the superintendent of well-pinnett schools was quoted in a piece on this at one point. And he said, look, I've heard all of the non-Native Americans tell us that we should be offended by this. I've heard all of the non-Native Americans make their case and tell us essentially how stupid we are that we don't know what we should be offended by. But I've talked to our students and our parents and our community about this and nobody finds any offense at it at all. It's not an insult to use that name with our kids. And he actually pointed out the true insults, wagon burners, prairie ends. Those are really insulting. Those upset our kids, but Redskins

is an honorable name we wear with pride. In fact, and this is what he said, and I'll never forget it. I'd like to see somebody come up here and try to change it. Closed quote. The guy from Oklahoma essentially just said, it's prideful for them. there's nothing offensive in the name to them. That was always my, for me, and many of you felt the same way. I always felt like if it's so obviously offensive and if the dictionary so right, how is this possible? How is it possible that these people who others speak for

and have claimed offense in their name? how is it that they're using this word and they're so proud of it? Well, the truth of the matter is that there are people in this country that make it their business to be offended. And I'm not accusing anybody specifically of profiting off being offended. But we all know that that does exist in this country. There are a lot of people that are into causes and they profit from really advocating for said cause. And then once they benefit from it, they move on to the next one. and that's what they do.

I'm not saying specifically any of these people have made a career out of it, because that's not true with any of the names I've mentioned. I just knew that this issue was very gray, that it wasn't black and white, and all I wanted was to say, show me the proof. I've pointed to the Annenberg study, now I am able to point to the Washington,

and post 2016 story. Now I'm able to point to the 2019 post survey. And all I'm asking is for you to provide some data. Like, don't tell me what I should think. Show me why I should think that way. And it's never happened. That's been the issue all along. It's just never happened.

You know, that answer to that question about whether or not it was defensive always needed to be earned with me. It was, you know, when it really got to the height of of, of, of people, you know, Bob Costas, especially, I'll never forget that. Never forget when he went on the air at halftime of that Redskins Cowboys Sunday night game and made it his, you know, a halftime piece to, you know, call for the end to this Redskins racial slur. And I was like, look, dude, earn it. It's brass tax time. No more implausible comparisons to the N-word. No more fast-talking about, you know, outdated polls without the new ones to replace them. No more condescending down talk to those Native American high schools that adamantly support the name. No more dismissing the other side as right-wing nut jobs. That had to end with this, in, in, in, in until they provided the data to support their position and to refute the actual data that was out there, that actually opposed their position, the data that was available made their position look as if it was opposite of what was real.

It was never a black and white issue. It was never. There were several shades of gray. And if they were right, they needed to prove it. And so far, they haven't been able to prove it. Not once. and the post, I guarantee you when they set out in 2016, they were hoping to prove it with an updated poll,

but they couldn't prove it with the updated poll. And they, good for them, they put the poll results out there, 9 out of 10, said not offensive. And I'm sure with this most recent poll, they tried to get clarity to what the 9 out of 10 meant with a word that would describe how they meant, what they felt. and the word was proud, proud. This conversation is over.

Now, I'm not saying it's over for some, but it should be over, and it should end with the following to make everybody happy, because I've suggested this for four or five years running, and to me it's the most practical solution to this, and that is the one thing that the other side has always hung their argument on is that this is a dictionary defined slur. And yet there's no other data to support that this is true. In fact, all of the other data that's available proves that it's not true.

But to make everybody happy, the dictionary should put a second non-pejorative definition. There should be a second non-pejorative definition. If you want to leave the defined as a racial sluror towards Native Americans in there, fine, but then have a second one that says non-pejorative, noun, the professional football team that plays in Washington, noun, the players who play for the professional football team that plays in Washington. That's all. That satisfies everybody because that actually is a practical definition based on what the word has meant. Language evolves in this country, both for positive, and negative, but language evolves. And that word for 50 to 75 years has meant the professional

football team that plays in Washington. We all know that. We all know that common sense from a common sense standpoint. We all know that if Aaron and I were sitting down at a bar and somebody came in and said, hey, two Redskins are over on the other side of the bar, we'd both say, is Haskins here? Is Ryan Carrigan here? Neither one of us would think, oh, they're two Native Americans at the bar. It's not what the word has meant for 50 to 75 years. Now, I can't, I can only say that from my perspective, all right, from a white male's perspective, I can say that, that that's common sense to me. And I've always been open to the possibility that maybe Native Americans don't feel that way. Maybe they feel that it's that first definition only. But the problem with that is, is that

the polling that's been done reflects that they don't find it to be insensitive. In fact, they're proud of it. They're proud of the name. Now, you'll hear all these arguments about how this polling's flawed, about how you're talking about 500 Native Americans who said they identified as Native Americans, and maybe they were lying. Again, I would point to the source of the poll and say, do you think the Washington Post is messing around with Native Americans that really aren't Native American. I think most of us that follow media know what they wanted the results to be, what they were hoping the results would be, and they weren't. Anyway, I hope, I think the conversation has kind of ended anyway in recent years. I think that 2016 poll put a lot of

it to bed. You know, from an important standpoint moving forward, well, for Redskins fans, it is important because if you won a stadium in Washington, D.C., the holdup for a while was going to be the name. Yeah, we'll accept you back if the name changes. I don't think Muriel Bowser feels that way. I think she's been more open-minded to this and more accepting potentially of the Redskins moving to D.C. with the team name as it exists. Dan Snyder is never going to change this name. I think he's been too, I think he's taken too many victory laps in one.

of the things that I would urge them to do, and so far they've done it, is to not take a victory lap with this latest poll. Act like you've been there. Don't make more out of it than it is. You know, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office decisions in the last couple of years, they've, you know, they've put out press releases and press statements, acknowledging the results of some of that stuff that was clearly favorable for the Redskins team name. You know, the 2016 poll, there was a whole lot of victory, you know, arms raised in a V, stuff. stuff going on there. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. This issues died off a little bit. I don't think the league is as intent and listening to the other side anymore. I don't know that they

ever were to begin with. I think they knew what the results were. And by the way, again, back to the results, I know it's complex. I know that there are 500 to 750 tribes in this country and they're all different and they all have different views. Again, though, show me the poll. Show me the poll that says something different than what we've seen in polling. The only way to know is to ask them, and the only people who have done it recently have been the post, and those results have been put out there. If there were a poll from the other side

that suggested that 9 out of 10 Native Americans were deeply, deeply offended by the name, don't you think we would have seen that poll by now? I think we would have. But the Redskins should keep their mouths shut, move forward, and not address this. All of the results have gone their way in recent years, all of them, and just act like this is an issue that is complex and sensitive,

and people are emotional about it, and don't fuel the other side. Act like you've been there for once. Anyway, I thought that was interesting from the weekend. I still would like to see the numbers. and see how far ahead proud, you know, out of the 500 people, how many of them said proudly, what percentage? And that information, interestingly, was not provided. Sticking with the Redskins here for a moment.

I'm going to get to Trent Williams just for a moment. No new news on Trent Williams from over the weekend, none. But my good friend, Neal & Rockville, who is a lawyer and has always been sort of the legal influencer, the legal voice on this show, on this podcast, on past radio shows and the new radio show. He sent me this text over the weekend, and he said, quote, hey, it just came to me that one of the reasons Trent Williams and his agent aren't speaking and answering questions about the medical issues on the record is that they are not true. Trent could be susceptible to a slander suit by doctors and others. He writes, Trent can be legally liable for what his agent says in his name. but can't be held liable for what others claim to say in his name or second party hearsay,

even if proven untrue. This may be why there's still silence from official Team Trent. The team's adamant that this is about money. I don't know that we would have heard from Trent directly or Trent's agent on the medical thing. At this point, I like the way that they sort of have handled it, you know, amongst themselves and with the team potentially and not gone public. know, it's a refreshing change from what usually happens. But that is an interesting take, because if it is more about money and he's using the

medical thing with the growth on his head to sort of use that as leverage to get a new deal, he's got to be careful with something like that. You can't say that publicly. You can't smear, you know, a training staff and doctors if it ain't true. And trust me, one of the things about, Bruce Allen and company, we know that this organization can be litigious. So if they really feel like they're being harmed by accusations, direct accusations by Trent Williams, they may go down that path. Something to consider. All right,

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Just go to Stamps.com. on the microphone at the top of the home page and type in Kevin, DC. That's stamps.com. Enter Kevin, D.C. All right, Ben Standing from the athletic coming up here in a minute. I did want to read a couple of tweets that I read since the show, the radio show, ended this morning. So Sue Kravins, the Redskins' second round pick from 2016. Boy, what a draft that was.

Doxon won Cravens 2. What was the rest of that draft? Why am I forgetting the rest of that draft? The rest of that draft was... Here it is. Kendall Fuller traded. Matt Ionitis, winner, Nate Sudfeld, got hurt in Philadelphia, but was the backup for once.

Stephen Daniels and Keith Marshall, who was never healthy. But Sue Cravens, for some reason, decided to just go off on the Redskins this morning. There are multiple tweets here to read. It started about an hour ago. He writes, over the course of five or six tweets, two years later and I'm still fighting the skins on something they've continued to do countless times times I think would be the correct way to describe it and write it which is why the

best left tackle in the game refuses to play for them now same reason I left mishandled injuries and withheld information all evidence points to them being guilty what's the evidence where is the evidence well I'm sure he's going to provide it here I will continue to fight this case and as the skins continue to call countless irrelevant witnesses to buy time and hopefully wait me out from their due fate. I will not settle no matter how much the skins dragged their feet on this. They know they're guilty. The team, I guess, did not pay Sue Craven's when he left, essentially went AWOL, which

by the way he did at USC. I think the Redskins stopped paying him. He writes, during the time I was put on the exempt list, the skins went out of their way to cut my insurance off, froze my payments, refused to pay me, and even recoup pay. all for a very real injury that they decided was made up, which is why people fear being hurt in the league. I will remember he did have concussions that year, right, Aaron? Yes.

I will not be intimidated. Intimated is what he wrote, but he means intimidated. I will not be intimidated, nor will this go away anytime soon, skins. The evidence in court shows your guilty actions. The lies and mixed stories your witness provided have all been proven false. use the CBA rules to your advantage all you want. I will still win. You will not 100, as in 100%.

Two years and no interest added to what I'm rightfully do and no timetable as to when the skins will be forced to pay me what they owe. And no timetable. I thought he just said that the court just proved them guilty. Aren't they going to have to pay? Back to this tweet. Two years and no interest added to what I'm rightfully do and no timetables to when the skins will be forced to pay me and what they owe.

I'm willing to fight until the end. I thank the players who have experienced this with this team firsthand that have called them out on it. So it says that the evidence in court showed that they were guilty. The lies and mixed stories your witnesses provided have been proven false. Use the CBA rules to your advantage all you want. I will still win. You will not 100%. And then he says he still wants to get paid.

Okay. Look, I don't know all that was involved. He did have a concussion. I know that it was reported at the time. There were some family issues, personal family issues that were difficult for him. I do know this, that the Redskins team president is not going to give away a nickel if he doesn't contractually have to. This is his position pretty much always. This is one of the reasons players who aren't playing well

and being rewarded for playing well over and over again have gotten frustrated with the team in the past. I don't know what he knows about the Trent Williams situation. He alludes to it in the very first tweet, saying two years later, I'm still fighting the skins on something they've continued to do countless times, which is why the best tackle in the game refuses to play for them now. Same reason I left,

mishandled injuries and withheld information. All evidence points to them being guilty. You know, the mishandled injuries withheld information, you know, speaks to some of the stuff that I learned a few weeks ago with Trent, that it wasn't communicated to him about the growth on his head as something truly urgent, which frustrated him. But I don't even know what to believe as it relates to the Trump Williams situation anymore. Really don't. But Sue Kravins going off on Twitter about the Redskins. Is he still on the Denver Broncos roster?

I'm just curious. Yeah, he was, he played in the preseason game last week. I'm pretty sure. Okay, well, good for him. I hope he ends up, you know, being healthy and having a good career and making lots of money there. You know, he was a playmaker. I mean, he had that huge play in the giant game in his rookie season when they won that game on the road in the Meadowlands. You know, he was talented, but clearly it didn't work out here for whatever the reasons were. Some other tweets real quickly from Albert Breer after a conversation with Jay Grude. He said, coaches love third round wide receiver, Terry McLaren's speed, toughness, and versatility. He's already playing multiple spots in Jay Gruden's office, offense, and I'd say is a lock for a role in offense this fall. Albert Breer, NFL Network, right still? Yes. Yeah.

I mean, I always ask that because these guys swap and change so quickly. Actually, he might be with MMQB now. Okay. So that would be SI. Yes. He says fifth round pick Cole Holcomb, flashed at linebacker could be a surprise contributor in defense. I think we all have this sense that Cole Holcomb's going to make the roster and be a contributor, especially given their need at that position.

Breer writes, left side of the line obviously remains a question mark. Right now, Geron Christian and Donald Penn are slugging it out at left tackle. The staff also likes Rookie West Martin, where Eric Flowers is in the mix. I don't think they want flowers to tackle for obvious reasons. I think we know most of that. Landon Collins might have been overpriced, but he's really impressed as coaches. I've heard that as well a lot here over the last 24 to 48 hours, by the way,

and I'm going to bring that up with Ben when he joins me. A few weeks out from the season, Skins feel like they can play him at every level of the defense, so he should be a pretty interesting chess piece. And then the last tweet from Albert Breer, Jay Gruden told me he wants to make a quarterback decision after the third preseason game, at the latest to give the starter time to prep for Philly. Gruden said Dwayne Haskins is still chasing Colt McCoy in Case Keenham, but he has time to catch them.

More on that in tomorrow's MMQB. So I'll read Albert Brewer's MMQB tomorrow. Unless that meant today. I don't know. Bottom line is, Dwayne Haskins does have time. I would love it if he had legitimate. a legitimate chance to compete for it.

But my sense of it is that this is still a two-horse race at quarterback. All right. Let's bring in Ben Standig, who, of course, now writes for the athletic and covers the Redskins for the Athletic, but we'll be doing a lot more for them as well. So camp is over. By the way, it flies by, right? I mean, it starts, and it seems like it's over, and it is in about two weeks, and they're back in Ashburn. and I guess a big macro question to start. What did we learn, if anything, about this team that we didn't know going into the first two weeks of camp? Is there anything that you think we've learned so far?

And to your point about it flying by, I think for those of us in the media, it did more than most years because there was no more than like four days in a row of practice, but it would have been a fall by day off, where sometimes it's been like six days, and that can get tedious and tires him in the top. all that. So I think the fact that there were some breaks in between helps us all feel like, you know, feel good about the situation. What did we learn about them?

I don't know. I mean, I think one of the sort of, probably under discussed topics early on in camp was that it felt that this was more one of the better run or maybe the best run camp under Gruden. How so? And a lot of it. You know,

I defer to somebody like Doc Walker, who I was talking to one day. And he just said, like, you watch just the way there. get from station to station, there's less time wasting around, you know, the, I don't want to sort of cite one player of particular, but like with DJ Sweringer, like you had a lot of sort of this sort of extracurricular activity, not, not in terms of like fighting, but just in terms of like,

you know, waste of energy perhaps, a little showy, but that wasn't the case. It felt very businesslike throughout. And, you know, I think part of that is we have so many, it was a combination of you have so many young guys on the team now who don't know any better that they could sort of tell them what needed to be done and also the addition of guys like ray horton and rob brian you know they've got a lot of veterans on the staff not not young coach not as many even maybe they lost some young coaches who you know haven't been there done that done out like you guys now everything i just said is the type of thing that we will really i think maybe get a chance to see may not be until week one but maybe later in the preseason when it comes to things like you know

false starts how to do things look crisp. We couldn't really get a sense of that the other day with so many starters out. But that might just be at least one thing to note. Beyond that, you know, I think the receivers made an impression. I still don't know what the top of the rotation is, but I think there is definitely more intrigued by what's with this group than I would have thought, at least say back at mini-camp, because we saw so many of these young guys really step up.

The, you know, the Cam Sims, Terry McLaurin, the groom praise him up and down, Robert Davis. We saw what he did in the preseason game, but he's been doing that all camp. And even guys beyond that, Stephen Sims, et cetera. And, you know, I think that makes for an intriguing scenario. That's one reason why I think Josh Dodson's seat is potentially hot going forward here. You know, I think Landon Collins gave them a,

a veteran presence. I don't think Landon Collins was going full board at every practice by any stretch. But his presence there, I think, added to that sort of professionalism. He brings a different element. He doesn't seem to be as focused on, like, look at me, look at me, and more about how do we get this done?

And I think that was a key. You know, the Trent Williams thing impacted both sides of the ball so much that in some ways it is a little tricky, I think, to figure out what's going on. The offensive line was kind of a mess. That made it seem more complicated for the quarterback, which makes things more complicated even for the defense, because you're not really hitting him.

We can't really tell how ferocious the defense is. They look good, but, you know, the quarterbacks have all this extra time to throw the ball that they wouldn't have otherwise, yada, yada, yada. So, you know, I think you could feel, based on just watching training camp, I don't think there's any reason to feel worse about the Redskins than you did beyond the Trent Williams aspect. But, you know, I think you could feel pretty decent about some things.

Health is obviously going to be huge. no matter what happened. You know, I was thinking about this after the show this morning at 980 and riding over here because I talked a little bit about the quarterback thing with Mike Jones and then a little bit with callers. And, you know, I asked the question, do you think Jay knows right now who is starting quarterback is? And I'll let you answer that in a moment. But I think one of the things that we learned during the first two weeks of training camp is that Colt McCoy has a much better chance of starting the opener than most thought. And I'm not going to say that you didn't say it or others have. Cooley told me from day one, Colt McCoy's the number one quarterback

in camp. This was after the Keenham trade. He'll be the number one quarterback in camp and barring, you know, a trade for Ryan Fitzpatrick or a Josh Rosen who really shows well, more likely than not a rookie quarterback isn't going to start. He thought Colt McCoy would be the starter when the season opened. But I don't think most people felt that way. You know, the depth chart thing, which, you know, Jay called silly and most of us understand is not very important that it's something they're forced to do, still sort of opened up the conversation again. I don't think most people, correct me if I'm wrong, really gave two weeks ago Colt McCoy a legit chance to start, if not, you know, they certainly didn't favor him to be the starter

on opening day. I mean, that's definitely true, but like here's my take on this. Like the other day I wrote a, I think it was my depth chart post for the athletic. And, you know, I did it because Gruden said that the depth chart they put out was garbage. So I decided to make my own. And I was also based on having just talked to Gruden one-on-one that day. But when it came to the quarterback, I said in what I wrote that this is somewhat biased. I don't believe that Cole McCoy can be their starting quarterback.

And I don't think they think it. I think what they think is that they need case. him to prove that he can earn the trust of Jake Gruden enough to go away, for Gruden to go away from the comfort that is Colt McCoy, the guy that's been there with this team. We've heard for years, Colt McCoy could be the guy. I mean, then what happened? First, we have Kirk Cousins. He never even comes close to competing with him.

Then they make a huge splashy trade to get Alex Smith. Why? You could have just let Colt McCoy have the job or, you know, bring in some sort of nominal competition and give him the job if you believed it. They didn't do that. Now they go, and I know this off season, he's coming off an injury, but they go out and trade for Case Keenham end draft, end draft Dwayne Haskins.

I don't believe that they actually think he's an answer. I just think they think that it's such a pivotal year for Gruden, that he may be the safety net that the coach relies on if he doesn't believe Keenham can get it done. Now, obviously, Case Keenham is not Tom Brady. Maybe he isn't even Kirk Cousins. I don't know. But he's obviously at least done.

he had, he's had success before as a starter in a legitimate way. Something Cole McCoy has not been able to do, whether because of injuries or decision-making, things don't work for McCoy. So I just don't, I've never believed for a minute, no matter what I see on the field, no matter what anybody tells me that that Col McCoy really has a chance, in a true sense, it's just he has a chance in the sense of they just decide that they don't believe in anybody else, and they like, screw it, we're going to go with what we know. I could see that, though. I mean, I've never discounted that as a possibility that, you know, they get through this and either just Colts still so far ahead and they're just, if they want to be competitive early in the season, they've got to have somebody that can run Jay's offense.

I never discounted that as a possibility. I just didn't think it was a likelihood by the time we got to the opener. But beyond that, let's be honest about this. Jay would love to prove that he can win with Colt McCorm. He's always felt like he could win with Colt McCoy. If he had been asked last year more clearly, more specifically, hey, Alex Smith or Colt McCoy, what if you're, you know, where do you want to go with this? He would have said, I can win with Colt McCoy.

We don't need to trade Kendall Fuller in a pick, you know, for another quarterback. But as we know, that that was sort of a unilateral trade. but Bruce was directed that and really felt, you know, like it was important to get a true veteran starter in. And by the way, probably was right about it. I just think that on some level when Alex got hurt last year, Jay thought he was on the verge of proving it with Colt the rest of the way. Colt got hurt and that he'd love to prove it again. But to your point, everybody around him knows it's a dead end. He won't hold up.

He can't last. Right, right. And, yeah, you know, I mean, there's a reason why coaches shouldn't be the general manager and probably vice versa for any given team because their visions are different. You know, he's viewing in this given game, can I win with Colt McCoy? And that's what makes Colt McCoy such a good backup that you can bring him in in a pinch and he can give you offense. You can start him for a week or two. It would be like, okay, we still have a chance to get this done. This isn't some, like, massive decline.

but over time, this is not going to work. One theory I came up with the other day, I should write this and stop talking about this on the radio, but what the hell, or on the podcast. But is that, like, you know how baseball this year has come up with this, they have a new type of pitcher, not a starter, not a reliever, but an opener.

Yeah. Somebody, a guy who comes in to pitches a couple of innings. Maybe that's a way to sort of hedge this thing. They would never come out and say this, of course, but if they just view it as, look, we're not, we think Keenham is fine, but maybe he needs a tick more work, especially since, you know, potentially no Trent Williams, the receivers are young and unprolant. What if we go with Colt McCoy, the one guy who knows Gordon's system, you know, in and out, we go with him to start the season, knowing at some point he's probably going to play anyway just because of injuries or whatever.

We just go with him up front for the first game or two and see what we have. then make another decision at that point. I presumably would be Keenan, but maybe it's even Haskins, depending on what they think. I mean, I just can't believe, because I think the thing is when we talk about who's the starter, the perception is we're saying who's the starting quarterback for the season. I can't believe for one second that anybody thinks Cole McCoy is the starter for the season. But if you see the starter for week one, maybe. Maybe that's maybe.

So back to the question that I actually asked callers this morning. Do you think right now, as we sit here on Monday morning the 12th, Jay knows who's going to start against Philadelphia? I don't. I think, like I said, I think he would probably like it to be Colt, but ultimately he probably knows it needs to be Keenham, but Keenham probably hasn't won him over completely yet, which, you know, based on last scene in training camp, is fair.

I don't think Keenham has been great, but I think he has been better than Cole particularly the last few days. So I suspect to your point, no, because he's not 100% all in on Keenham executing the system the way that he knows Colt can, regardless of whatever Colts shortcomings are. I agree with that. That's exactly what I think right now. I think that he doesn't really know for sure that case may be behind Colt. And I think he is in terms of really understanding the system and making Jay comfortable, but there's still time for him to close that gap enough. I would also just suggest, and, you know, everybody has a different belief as to the impact this is going to have on the decision, that it doesn't make sense organizationally if you're interested in selling tickets to announce sooner rather than later that Colt McCoy as your starting quarterback. You know, if that's the way it plays out, they should hold off on that announcement for as long as they can because that's not going to help them.

And, you know, Tommy pointed this out the other day, and it's interesting because, you know, he's always been. a Colt fan, and we're all Colt fans as a person and as a backup. But there's no bigger thud for, or dud for the fan base than to hear that Colt McCoy is going to be the starting quarterback out of the three. The other two are obviously not just intriguing, but exciting in the case of Haskins. There's nothing exciting nor intriguing about Colt McCoy as a starter. Yeah, 100%. I mean, that would even be almost like, not, not. just like a step back, but like many steps back because he does, yeah, I mean, at least with Case Keenum, you can sell, hey, this guy took the Vikings to the NFC championship game

two years ago. Colt McCoy, uh, yeah, no. So, uh, Colt McCoy took Texas to the, to a big bowl game. Um, that, you know, that's about all he can say. And I don't, like I said, I don't really want to, I don't want to like dump on Colt. I think he's totally good for what they need. You need 53 players to win the NFL. You need a competent backup.

quarterback, the Redskins can sleep well at night, knowing that guy exists if something goes wrong. But yeah, I just, again, from a ticket standpoint, from a football standpoint, it just doesn't make sense to go that route. And yes, if you really do want to go down that route, I would keep that, I would keep that to myself for as long as possible. Last question on the quarterbacks. Do you think there's any chance at all that Dwayne Haskins could close the gap so significantly over the next two weeks that Jay would consider starting him in the opener? Based on just football alone, no. And that's not a knock on Dwayne Haskins.

It's not saying that which is a bad pick or anything like that. It's just to say he looks like a guy who's only had one-year college starting experience who's a rookie in the NFL and all that. Plus, you know, look, I'm convinced that the reason Donald Penn and West Martin didn't start the other day was because they wanted them. the game when Hasmans came in so the kid wouldn't get pummeled. And, you know, the offensive line is still problematic, assuming Trent Williams is out for the foreseeable future.

So, you know, putting him behind that line, I don't think is going to help the cause. Maybe I still have too many David Carr memories in my head. But, like, you don't want him running for his life, especially when he's not a running quarterback. So let him get acclimated to the league. Let the Redskins figure out what they have on the line, what they have a receiver. You know, we have still have seen there. Gice go full blast. because he hasn't been in the game yet.

Let's see all those things coming to play, then go to Haskin. So I don't see how he could by week one, like I said, unless outside football factors get in the way. All right. A couple things on the roster on camps so far. We're talking to Ben Standing of the athletic. We know what they think of Jimmy Morland,

and we don't need to spend a lot of time on him because apparently the nickname, the People's Corner, is starting to stick. Jimmy Morland's going to be on this roster. and he's going to play. I've heard in the last day that they are really, really impressed with Landon Collins. We haven't heard a lot about Collins through camp. I mean, obviously the biggest free agent signing, off-season signing in a long time for this organization, but I've heard that not only is he impressing on the field, but that they really love his overall attitude, demeanor,

leadership capability. You know, apparently already they're projecting he'll be a team captain, which isn't unusual for this franchise for the new guys to be team captains. But what are you hearing about landing Collins? Yeah, so the other day I had a one-on-one with Jay Gruden that I wrote about up on the athletic and sort of combined it with the depth chart review with Jay sort of weighing in, whether he realized it or not. And at the very end of my interview with Jay, I just said,

look, I know you love all these players like they're kids and blah, blah, blah, blah, give me a couple of guys that have stood out. Those guys you were just been really impressed with in camp. And the two guys he came up with, one on offense was Terry McLaurin, and the one on defense was Landon Collins. And he cited Landon Collins. He's like, look, obviously he's a really good player, but you never know what you're going to get sometimes

when you bring in these high-profile free agents. Is he going to come in and be a diva? Is he going to sit-out practices? Is he going to demand certain things? Is he going to not listen to instruction? And he's like Landon Collins has been none of those things, that he's come in and provided everything. you would have wanted to, you know, look, he's not going out there, like, crushing people

in training camp. He's probably, you know, biting his time a little bit with his energy usage, but he's providing that leadership. And I actually think even in a unique way with regards to Josh Norman, I know some people have asked the question of can Landon Collins and Josh Norman co-exist? I actually wonder if Landon Collins is going to be a really good influence on Josh Norman, because I think Josh Norman is somebody, despite his, his, his, uh, his, uh, you know, his willingness to talk and be exuberant and things like that.

He burns to win. And I think he got lumped in last year with a lot of the DJ Slaranger stuff or Swayranger would sort of mouth off about his thoughts. And Norman, he's honest and he's expressive, but that's not really what he wants to be about. He wants to be about how do I get this thing done. And that's where Landon Collins is. Landon Collins, yeah, he spoke up about the Giants when he felt he was wronged,

but that was sort of at the end of things. I think he, I think, we'll see, he's in this to figure out what do we have to do to make this defense work, this secondary work, you know, put our heads together and not be about me, but be about us. I think that's the vibe I'm getting. That's what Gruden effectively said. And so I think he'll be a good influence to some degree on Norman in some way. And so I'm insanely the younger players in that defense. And, you know, even the fact that Monta Nicholson, I feel like it's had a, you know, pretty decent camp, or at least we haven't been worrying about that spot. and I suspect on some level that comes in to Lane and Collins being a steady influence.

Yeah, you know, the Redskins weren't among the lowest teams that got after the quarterback last year, but they weren't anywhere near, you know, the top half of the teams that got after the quarterback with Blitz. And I'm thinking, you know, with Rob Ryan and Ray Horton and the new coaches defensively, some with, you know, more experience in some cases, you know, than the coaches they had last year, even though they were out of work. I wonder if maybe there, hopefully there's some recognition this year that, you know, Josh is a better zone corner than he is a man corner, and they need extra pressure.

It would be great if Montez-Swatt turns out to be what I hope he is, and that is a true edge dominant speed rusher, and then you got Carrigan on the other side, and you got their interior guys, and you don't need to send extras. But I would love to see a much more aggressive pass rush with zone, behind it this year than they've played in the past. Well, in talking to Norman back after minicamp, he, you know, when talking about his play, but then combined with the defense overall, I asked him if it could be the best

defense since he's been here. And, you know, he just got really excited largely because, or at least, I didn't say largely, in part because what I think he thinks it can do for him, that, like, you know, he did make a fair amount of, create a fair amount of turnovers last year, but they're still lacking those interceptions, and that, you know, with a new defensive backs, with a new secondary coach and Ray Horton, I think somebody he really likes, with those guys up front getting older,

becoming even more productive, I think he sees what this may be able to do for him to put him back in those playmaking ways that we saw with Carolina and, you know, in talking to him several times in training camp, you know, he seems to still have this extra spring and this step that goes beyond jumping over the bull. he told me that he jumped over that bull, but he really jumped into like a new dimension.

Beyond the sort of the whatever's going on to his head, I think from a football perspective, I think that's partly because he sees the chance that this could be more akin to what he was used to with Carolina from a scheme standpoint, from a usage standpoint, and, you know, from that pass-rarch standpoint, giving him and the other defensive backs more opportunities. All right. offensively. Give me the six, five, six or seven receivers

that end up being on the roster when the final cuts are made. So I got Paul Richardson, Trey Quinn, Terry McLaren, Cam Sims. I don't have it in front of me, so if I'm blanking on somebody, you always tell me.

Cam Sims, I've got Robert Davis making it. I'm forgetting somebody. I don't mean. Kelvin Harmon? Kelvin Harmon. That's six. Those are my six.

So is Josh Doxon gone? That's, I'm, I put enough chips on that to say he is that I'm going to continue that way. Now, his money is guaranteed for the year. It doesn't make sense to just cut him. But I could see a trade scenario. I just think that the younger guys have been impressive. And I can see a seventh. I think if there is a seventh, look, I don't want necessarily go to Darbin Kinsey,

even though he had a nice, he had been good in camp and had a good preseason opener. But I could imagine. and perhaps Jehu Chesson because I think they were counting on McLaurin to be part of their special teams, but I think he's too good. I think they're not going to be able to use him the way they wanted to, and therefore they're going to just have to find an extra piece somewhere to be special teams, and I think just, you know, it happens to be that Chesson plays a receiver, but I could see him possibly being the guy who gets, who they keep for that role. You know, again, I don't think they're going to waive Dotson, but I could see them looking to trade

him. He's been okay at best, I guess. I just haven't seen that extra spark the way you would maybe hope that them not picking up that option would provide, but we haven't seen that from him throughout his time. And these young guys have just continued to do good work. I will admit that it's easy to get excited about receivers in particular at training camp because they have the advantages and we see them making the obvious plays. They're often going up against some second and third string guys. Nonetheless, I think this group has looked pretty good. And I can see them go. The fact that Gruden loves McLaurin as much as he does, based on what he's told me and others,

I can see him starting. And once you decide to put Dotson on the bench, I just think at that point it's easy to say, let's move on and figure out who those young guys would want to keep. Boy, it's really amazing that, you know, McLaurin is thought of in the way he's thought of, and yet he was on the field for one snap on Thursday night against the Browns as a rookie in his first preseason game. And I get the whole special teams thing. You don't want a starting wide receiver being on special teams.

But when they picked him, what did we hear more than anything else? This guy is going to be a phenomenal special teams player. And it would be just ironic if he ends up being a phenomenal receiver. You can't put them on teams. And you're right. Like Chesson last year played everything. Plus, he returned some kicks in either that Tennessee or Jacksonville game, right? I think so.

Yeah, he's a guy that's a versatile option. He's got some good size, you know, at receiver. Yeah, again, he's not going to be a, he would be deep on the depth chart. But, yeah, he can do a few different things for them. And look, it doesn't necessarily have to be him. I just would think that that's a possibility, and it just happens that he plays receiver. But, yeah, McLaurin, I mean, they're still using him on special teams during training camp.

But, you know, even Jay's admitted, you know, there becomes a point where, you know, How do you put him out there? I'm saying the same thing with Trey Quinn with the return game. I think in the return game, they're willing just for Trey Quinn to just fair catch the ball and not drop it. It's amazing they still don't have confidence too much with any punt returner to actually do the thing you want to do. Like go up the field. But at least Trey Quinn seems to have sure hands and catches it, so it seems to give him the lead. But, yeah, that would be exposing him as well.

And so at some point you can't, you know, I think because. it's too much to put your top receivers out there in that way. All right. Last question. Who are we going to see Thursday night? Are we going to see starters play? And then give me the guess in terms of how the quarterbacks get rolled out Thursday night against the Bengals.

I would suspect we'll see the starters at least for a series, you know, at a minimum. You know, I can imagine a spot guy or two, maybe not playing if there's something that popped up from an injury standpoint. And that's the thing. So it's quarterback, you know, yesterday morning, Dave Byrd and said, yeah, he called McCoy's good, he expects he'll play Thursday. And then late in yesterday's practice, he got rolled into one of the offensive of linemen, got pushed back into him, and he was definitely limping a little bit off

the field. I asked him what happened. He said he wasn't even sure, but, you know, there was definitely a little bit of a hitch in his stride. So, you know, we'll see where he's at by Thursday. And, you know, that is something to keep an eye on for sure. but, yeah, I mean, look, I think at some point you have to get out there. I think the one interesting thing for me in terms of the starters is

if you play Sheriff and Ruey and Morgan Moses, which, you know, probably will, I would think at least for a series, who's on the left side? My take was they let Penn and West Martin, they kept them out of the starting line up because they wanted them in the game whenever Haskins showed up to give him some more protection. Do they do that again, or do they actually start to say, hey, we need to get whatever offensive line we're going going together, because we always hear about it is how important that cohesion is of that group. And, you know, I think you have to at some point get that going.

I asked Chase Wray about this yesterday. He said, you don't really need, like, weeks and weeks to do that. They're practicing with each other. It makes you imagine. But, yeah, at some point, you're going to have to get that five going. Maybe it's not this week, but it's going to have to happen. Obviously, the next preseason game is typically the only other one the starters would play in. So, you know, if you're going to have a five-man offensive line and you have to figure out what that is,

you only have basically two opportunities left to get them on the field together. I think they like Martin a lot. I mean, I heard Jay refer to the possibility or refer to, you know, Flowers is still working in both places. Nobody believes he's going to be there starting left tackle when this season starts. He shouldn't even be it in a preseason game. I mean, if he's going to make this team and play for him, it's going to be a guard. and hopefully Donald Penn can get into shape and prove some of the things that made him a pro bowler

for back-to-back years just two years ago. I do think every time you hear Jay talk about West Martin, it just sort of indicates it's like Holcomb and Martin, for whatever reason, are the two guys that every time he speaks, it's like these guys are on the team and they're going to have a chance to play a lot. Oh, 100%. I mean, you know, West Martin, without context,

you would almost think he's talking about like Russ Graham. Exactly. But that's still sort of the low bar element of the situation. I mean, I mean, West Martin is doing some good things. People who know the offensive line play better than I do have been impressed. But, yes, he probably shouldn't be starting if you had a viable option. They don't. So I think that, so I think he's going to have to, you know, probably be thrust in there week one.

And that's all I'm just saying at some point, especially for a guy like that, don't you want him in there with the other starters to get a sense of their movements, their actions, and so on. So, you know, we'll see if that happened this week. But, yeah, West Martin of Darden, I would imagine Donald Penn with Christian, you know, punchers' chance would probably not just base on experience. I don't know if Flowers make the team. That's something I need to figure out. I think he's, yeah, he's sort of the ninth guy.

Do they want to go with him or do they want to go somewhere else? I don't know what we'll see about that one. Here's what I heard apparently Jay said the other day that he was talking to Sean LaValle and he said to Sean, you're no West Martin. That's for sure. That's it. That's all I got for you for today. I will talk to you soon. Follow Ben on Twitter like I do at Ben Standig. Read him in the athletic. He does 58 different podcasts on all sorts of things. And he really knows the team and all of the teams in town, especially the two that I care about the most. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks.

Appreciate it, man. All right, great job by Ben. Love having him on. And like having him on the Redskins Beat, by the way. I should have told him that when I had him on. I've told him that in person. But I think Ben does a real thorough job when he's covering a team. I mean, he probably was more thorough and had more information on the Wizards as he covered them over the last few years. So I'm glad he's on the Redskins beat.

He's doing a great job with the athletic. If you listen to this show on iTunes, don't forget to race. us and review us. That helps. Subscribe as well. Doesn't cost you anything. And don't forget to tell people that we're also available at the Kevin Sheehan Show.com. Last thing before we run is the Nats weekend. Friday night's game and giving up that three-run Homer or Frazier and then eventually losing in the bottom of the ninth when they went into the bottom of the ninth with a six-three lead was a true playoff atmosphere, playoff intense baseball game in August. That crowd in Queens, and I had Bob Carpenter on the radio show earlier, it's, I mean, they were, he said that place was juiced all weekend long.

You could hear it through the TV set on Friday night and Saturday night. It was unbelievable when Frazier hit that three run, tying home run in the bottom of the ninth on Friday night. That is a playoff response, and they were two devastating losses. Nat's taking, you know, late inning leads in the first two. games and blowing them both. Doolittle on Friday night, giving up all those runs in the bottom of the night. Six hits, four earned runs in that inning.

It was painful. And you have those nights. I mean, Doolittle is pretty good, but he had a night like that earlier in the season at San Diego. Not the same crowd, though, by the way, when he did it in San Diego, when he blew a big lead in San Diego. But an incredible series over the weekend that thankfully the Nats were able to salvage to a certain degree by winning yesterday. Victor Robles, what a home run. Two-run shot in the top of the night that really put the game away, although I didn't think it was put away even with a three-run lead. I was

expecting, you know, another potential meltdown in the night, but fortunately that didn't happen. You know, guys like Strickland and Hudson have pitched well, you know, you can have Rodney at this point. He's killing them. Swero pitched great yesterday. But God, did they need that win? Because if they had been swept by the Mets. But one quick takeaway on the Mets, Aaron, after watching most of all three of these games over the weekend, I think that team's for real. Like, they have the starting pitching. They've got some hot guys offensively, clearly, you know, guys like Alonzo and Conforto and Frazier, you know, Wilson Ramos had a couple of big games against the Nats over the weekend as former team. I think they look like a team that's for real. I know everybody

talks about their schedule getting much harder, and that's going to be a problem for them. They play three with the Braves starting Tuesday night. They got a lot of tough teams on the schedule, but they took two or three from the Nats and potentially, you know, could have been worse. It also, I mean, it could have been better, but it also could have been worse because the Nats had a chance in the first two. I don't know. I sort of felt like after the weekend, the Mets are a for real team. Like they've got a shot to be in this wild card race till the end. But the Nats needed yesterday. Yesterday, they remain a half game in front of St. Louis for the first wild card. And a game and a half in front of the Mets, had they lost yesterday, they would have been behind both of them, the Mets and the Cardinals.

Still six and a half out in the division behind Atlanta. But overall, you're talking about a road trip of nine games, right? They went five and four when all was said and done because of that three-game sweep of San Francisco. And thank God for Fetty and Ross. Like Fetty and Ross and San Francisco essentially saved this road trip. because Strasbourg lost twice and Corbyn lost twice, and Fetty and Ross both won. And you get Fetty tonight and Ross tomorrow night

against the Reds who have won five of seven before they turned back to Strasbourg. Now Soto got hurt. Apparently all is okay. He wanted to come back into the game yesterday. That would obviously be devastating. Can you imagine if Scher and Soto weren't playing for him? Scher apparently looked good in his throw session on Saturday.

be nice to get him back, certainly for, you know, that stretch where they get the Mets and the Braves a bunch of times. They get the Mets three days in early September, and then they get the Braves for seven out of ten games in early to mid-September. So those will be, you know, crucial games there. Their schedule's not easy. Like the Reds have been playing well, then they get the Brewers who are playing well. At Pittsburgh's never easy for them. At Riggily will be huge. They do get a stretch where they've got the Orioles twice and the Marlins three times. That's a five-game stretch end of the month, first part of September, that they've got to make hay on. That's like a four-in-one.

They've got to go four-and-one during that stretch. Anyway, incredible. Playoff-feel baseball in Queens over the weekend in that series between the Nats and the Mets. All right, we're done for the day. Tommy will be with me tomorrow. Take care.