The Kevin Sheehan Show - Reality Check For Cowboys

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

With the Commanders off on Sunday, Kevin opened talking NFL including the 49ers' beat-down of the Cowboys last night. Kevin talked a little about the Terps' loss at Ohio State and one of the worst coaching blunders in recent college football history.Jeff Ermann/InsideMDSports jumped on to talk more about Maryland's loss at Ohio State and give an early preview of the Terps' '23-'24 hoops team.Kevin then had longtime NFL writer and NFL Hall of Fame voter Gary Myers on to talk about his book about the 1986 New York Giants Super Bowl team. In addition to talking about the book, Gary talked about his recent presentation of Joe Jacoby for the Hall of Fame. He talked Gibbs vs Parcells, RFK memories, the three matchups between the Skins and Giants in '86, and a lot more.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon show. Here's Kevin. He's a lot of his past Russians as well. 30. And he got a blunt.

And Joe and Hattrick. Kittle's first three touchdown game of his NFL career. Oh, M.G. Has the kids say or is the kids right these days? Oh, my God. What a beating. What a wake-up call. What a reality check for those cowboy fans that thought this was the year.

We have cowboy fans that listen to this podcast, to all of you, my condolences. That was very sad last night and humiliating. The show presented as it always is by Windonation, call them at 86690 Nation or go towindonation.com for the deal of the year. Sorry about getting this podcast out late today. I will try to do better this week. If you missed Friday's shows, plural, there was the post-game show following our humiliating loss to the Bears. And then later on on Friday, October 6th, there was the show with Cooley and with Jay Gruden. You can go back and listen to those.

They were pretty good. Also, rate us and review us, if you haven't done that. A lot of you did it last week. For some reason, we got a lot of ratings and reviews in. Much appreciated. If you haven't done it and you don't mind doing it, it's helpful. It's also helpful if you subscribe to the podcast and follow us on Apple and Spotify as well. Two guests on the show today, Jeff Erman from Insidemdsports.com in the next segment.

We'll talk Terps Buckeyes and Gary Myers, long-time NFL writer, NFL Hall of Fame voter. I recorded this interview with Gary last week. He's written a book on the 86 Giants. the first giant Super Bowl team, the team that beat Washington three times, including in the NFC title game back in 86. Gary revealed to me that he presented Joe Jacoby to the Hall of Fame Committee this year. So we talked a lot about that as well. Let's start with the NFL yesterday. Got to sit back, watch a lot of NFL football like a lot of you probably did, without having to worry about our own team playing a game. Let's start the NFL conversation on this show today with

the end of the NFL day yesterday, and that is with the Cowboys losing to the 49ers, 42 to 10. Three takeaways from the game last night, which was billed as one of the games of the year, certainly one of the games of the year in the NFC. I would imagine the television ratings for the beginning of that game were through the roof. Three takeaways. Number one, Dallas really isn't good enough to be considered an NFC championship contender. I know it's only week five and things changed dramatically, but there was such a disparity last night between the top of the NFC, which is San Francisco, maybe Philly, who knows about Detroit, maybe, and then, you know, sort of a fraudulent, you know, a contender in Dallas.

That was a massive, one-sided, lopsided, blowout. And it was very revealing of takeaway number two. Dallas just isn't good enough offensively, and they're not good enough at quarterback. Dak Prescott is an average NFL quarterback. It is possible that he's average right now because he doesn't have Kellyn Moore, the imagination of the offense in previous years.

I will concede that point if cowboy fans want to make it, and you're the ones that should make it. You know, I know that there were complaints about Kellynne Moore's play calling. There shouldn't have been complaints about the creativity compared to what they have now. Dak just doesn't look confident either. I mean, how quickly does he get to his checkdown? It was painful to watch him last night, three interceptions, 14 completions, a team that generated eight first downs in total. less than 200 yards of total offense. It was really, really awful.

I've always been a fan of DAC, not in the conversation of him being a top 10 guy. I've never felt that way about him. I thought he was kind of just on the outside of that when he was playing at his best. He's an average quarterback right now, and Dallas's offense isn't good enough in today's NFL to compete with the likes

of San Francisco, Philadelphia, and Detroit in the NFC. not in post-season games. Takeaway number three. God, are the 49ers good. But really, Brock Purdy is growing on me. I don't have him at Joe Montana quite yet. I've heard a lot of that conversation last night. But he was so impressive.

Kyle's offense makes it so easy on the quarterback, but you still have to execute. You still have to make the throws. You still have to make the throws on time. You still have to make the throws with anticipation and with accuracy. And he does that. He's completed in his last two games, 37 of 45 passes for 535 yards without an interception. He's nine touchdowns, zero picks on the year.

He has not lost a game in which he started in the regular season for the 49ers, 10 and O. The only loss was in the postseason last year, but he barely played in that NFC championship game against Philadelphia. The 49ers are super, super impressive. Back to Dallas's and Purdy, very impressive. Back to Dallas's offense for a moment. I gave them out as a smell test pick. I was obviously wrong. The smell test rough weekend, four and seven this weekend.

I mean, what was I thinking, giving the Cowboys out? And I knew, I knew almost right away. I got no shot. First of all, the 49ers, my God, they are so nasty in every sense of the word. They're such a physical team both sides of the ball. They are so hard to tackle. I don't know if I've ever seen a team with more guys that are harder to bring to the ground on one team. Kittle, Debo, McCaffrey, Jordan Mason, the backup running back. They're just

hard to tackle. And then on defense, just, you know, just incredibly talented and productive. But I knew early on this was a loser. Here were the Cowboys' first four offensive drives. This is truly woeful. Three plays one-yard punt. Three plays, one yard, punt. One play lost fumble. Three plays, two yards, punt. I got this email last week that I saved. It was from Greg.

Greg's a big Cowboys fan. And he heard me talking on my radio show during NFL power rankings that we do. My producer, Denton and I do. Tommy hates to do it, so we don't do it here. And I had the Cowboys in my top five, but I said, or just outside it. I said, I'm very skeptical about them offensively. I'm just not sure yet. I think they're really talented defensively. They'll miss digs, but they can certainly hold their own defensively, but I'm just not sure about them offensively. And Greg wrote to me, and he wrote,

do you even watch the Cowboys? By the way, Clay kind of took me to task on this too, now that I'm thinking about it. Greg said, do you even watch the Cowboys? The Jets and the Patriots have excellent defenses. We average 34 points against them. They did. They scored 38 against New England in a 38 to 3 win, and they scored 30 against the Jets in a 30 to 10 wins, 68 points to games. That is an average of 34 points.

But those weren't all offensive points. I feel like we've got the same kind of theme going with, you know, the point totals here. Point totals or point totals doesn't mean that the offense got all those points. Special teams and defense are a part of these games. I wrote back to Greg, and I just simply replied, look, those two teams turn the ball over eight times, and Dallas's defense scored multiple times in those games.

But I did right. I said, look, the Niners are the real test because they're just as good as those teams defensively. They're just as good as the, they're better than the Patriots defensively, but just as good as the Jets defensively. and they're not inept on offense like those teams. So let's see what happens when Dallas's defense stops getting points and turnovers. And we saw it last night.

The first four drives of the game, 10 plays, 8 yards, three punts, and a lost fumble. They averaged in their first four drives of the game less than a yard per play. Eight first downs, under 200 yards, 10 points. It was bad. The rest of the NFL Sunday was fun. The Eagles beat the Rams 23 to 14, another smell test loser. The game turned at the end of the first half, when at 14 to 10 Rams with the lead, 30 seconds to go in the half,

the Eagles went for it, and they got a big 38-yard pass to A.J. Brown with 15 added to it via the horse collar rule. And then they got a PI in the end zone, which led to a, walk off first half, two seconds to go when they took this snap, brotherly shove into the end zone for a 17-14 lead. The Eagles have sort of grinded their way to a 5-0 record. They just kind of do everything well. Jalen Hertz, 303 passing yards, 72 rushing yards. I mean, the Eagles in the game against the Rams had 159 on the ground and 295 through the air net. you know, total yardage against the Rams, 454 yards.

They had 28 first downs. They were 13 of 18 on third down. 28 first downs for the Eagles, eight for the Cowboys. DeAndre Swift looked good again. I mean, I'll tell you this. Washington's defense against the Eagles did a pretty good job against the run.

But they just have a lot, man. They have a lot. and the Rams are better this year. They're improved. And they got Cooper Cupback yesterday. He and this guy, Puka, Nukuha combined 15 catches, 189 yards in a touchdown. The Rams actually were in this game, had a chance,

and then that drive at the end of the first half was hurtful. The Washington opponent this coming Sunday, Atlanta in Atlanta, those of you that thought maybe Taylor Heineke, Taylor Heineke, excuse me, would be the starter by then. No, that's not going to happen. Desmond Ritter had the game of his young career. 28 to 37, 329 yards in a touchdown, including a final drive where they were down by a point. He drove him 10 plays, 56 yards, and set up for the walk-off field goal to beat Houston 21 to 19. The Falcons are 3 and 2.

They're a two-point favorite Sunday in the game against Washington. other games the Lions look super impressive without a Monra St. Brown. They smothered the Panthers 42 to 24. The Steelers came from behind to beat the Ravens 17 to 10. What was Harbaugh doing going for the fourth and two at the end of the first half instead of kicking a field goal with 13 seconds to go? Even if he picked up the fourth and two, there wasn't enough time to complete the drive. Belichick's teams, or his team, have now been outscored 70,

two to three in back-to-back weeks. Biggest home loss ever, 34-0 nothing yesterday to the Saints. That followed the biggest loss ever for him in New England, 38 to 3 to the Cowboys last week. Joe Burrow looked healthy through for 317. Jamar Chase 15 catches 192 yards, three touchdowns. The Bengals look alive again. They really look alive again. The Jags early in the day, second straight week in London, beat the Bills,

25 to 20 a week after the bills put up 48 against the Dolphins. They had seven going into the fourth quarter against Jacksonville. Week to week league league. Bills looked like the best team in the league last week. And then they go and lose to Jacksonville. Who's good? Don't get me wrong. But they couldn't score until the fourth quarter.

The Colts lost Anthony Richardson again to injury. Gardner Minshew came in, played lights out. Zach Moss, by the way, 165 yards rushing on the return day. of Jonathan Taylor after he signed a contract extension. Chiefs Vikings, the Chiefs look like they're coasting to me. Travis Kelsey injured his ankle came back after X-rays. They won 27 to 20. You know who had six balls dropped,

including what would have been an easy crawl-in touchdown to tie the game, but Alexander Madison dropped the screen that was against zero coverage blitz. It was perfect play call, and he just dropped the ball. Hawkinson dropped three balls. Jefferson got hurt in the game. I don't think Kirk's getting traded just for those of you that think he is. I really don't. I think the Vikings still feel like they can make a run.

What else from yesterday? That's basically it. The Jets won. They're two and three. They beat the Broncos. I looked this up earlier today. DVOA, the DVOA metric defensive rankings. Denver's 32, Chicago's 31.

Arizona's 30. Washington's gotten the three worst defenses in the league in their first five games. Well, Buffalo's five and Philadelphia is 13, so they did have those two that they faced as well. Atlanta is seventh and third down defense. I'm sorry, fifth and third down defense, seventh in total yards allowed. They are 19th DVOA, I think, defense-wise. It'll be a decent defensive test. This is not going to be Chicago or Denver. Sunday in Atlanta. The baseball playoffs, they are continuing here tonight with Philly up 1-0. And by the way, the Dodgers down 1-0. So the Braves and Dodgers with the best record and the buys in the National League, both lost game one. The Orioles, and man, a lot of you, I know were Camden Yards. A couple of my friends went. They said it was an electric atmosphere.

They lose the first two to Texas at home. I think baseball has to make this round best of seven. A shorter series favors the lesser team, and the team coming in off the wild card wins, off their wild card win into this round, they have played more recently. The higher-seated teams, the two teams with a buy in each league, haven't played in a week.

I think it's a disadvantage. I think they should make it best as seven to give those top seeds, A, the benefit and the reward for being one of the best two record teams in their league, but then they don't hurt them by making them sit and playing a short series. Lastly, before we get to Jeff Irman, Maryland lost at Ohio State Saturday, 37 to 17. Jeff and I are going to talk more about that in a moment. The score was not indicative of the game. Maryland actually played well.

they actually were the better team for two and a half quarters. They led 10 to nothing in the first half. They led 17 to 10 in the third quarter. They were getting, by the way, 17 and a half, they lost by 20. Some of you may have gotten Maryland at plus 19. The line came down right before kickoff. Two big takeaways from that game. Number one, they're really making strides.

The Big 10 East has been a, you know what, of a division to play in with Michigan, Penn State, in Ohio State. They have been basically just beaten in the trenches year and year out in those kinds of games. They were not beaten in the trenches on Saturday. They've made strides on that front. Takeaway number two is they just missed opportunities to extend and build a bigger lead. They had a fourth and one in field goal range and put in the backup quarterback to run it and they didn't get it in the first half. At the end of the first half, they were in chip shot field goal range. all they had to do was not take a sack or throw it short of the sticks,

and their veteran quarterback threw it on a checkdown short of the sticks, and the clock ran out. There were just missed opportunities to have a bigger lead when they had the lead to have scored more points. Ohio State's not Ohio State, that's for sure. I think Penn State and Michigan are both better. But still, Maryland went to Columbus, and the final score was not indicative of how they were legitimately in the game.

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Second down at 10 at the 15-yard line. Tunga by lower. Looking goes through his progressions. And the end zone. Maryland. Sensational catch. Gus Johnson on the call for Fox Saturday in Columbus. Maryland took a 7-0 lead early. They actually led 10-0, and then again 17-10 into the second half. They lost the game 37-17. But as I mentioned in the open to the show, they hung in there with Ohio State, perhaps a lot longer than people thought. Jeff Irman, who covers the team for Inside MD Sports coming up in a moment.

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and publisher of the number one Terps website out there inside MDsports.com. You can follow Jeff on Twitter at Jeff underscore Erman, E-R-M-A-N-N. You were at the game on Saturday. Let me start there. I'm just curious. Was it a crowd at Ohio State that was pumped up for this game thinking, you know, it's 5 and O Maryland coming in? Or was this far from like, you know, a moment in which they actually sweated it? No, I think they were pretty pumped up. I think they respected Maryland. You know, Maryland generated some national hype during the 5 and 0 starts. So they weren't scared. You know, they always expect to win. They also expect every call. which is entertaining from the refs.

But, you know, I think they respected Maryland. You know, they came in. There are three touchdown underdogs, which many teams have done over the years. Few escape with a win. You know, it's so rare to win there. And for, you know, two and a half quarters, it looked like Maryland had a chance,

and then obviously the wheels fell off the bus. They expected to get every call. That's funny. I read this story on radio, I think, a few weeks ago. that the Ohio State fan base is the number one college football fan base in America. Notre Dame is second. But when you said that, it just kind of reminded me for us at basketball games. I mean, do we ever think we're going to get one call to go our way at Xfinity Center?

I think the Maryland fan base at basketball games just assumes, Jeff, will never get a whistle. No, that's true. And every fan base is, I mean, it's short for fanatics for a reason. Every fan, you're going to get to the game, and that Homer adrenaline rushes through you that you just can't see anything neutrally. But, you know, in terms of the size of the Ohio State fan base, that really doesn't surprise me. I mean, it is absolutely a religion, you know, 100,000 seats in the stadium. I think second only Michigan, maybe 10 state.

I don't know. They're all in that same mix. Tennessee, yeah. And they sell out every single week. So, you know, it doesn't get much more hardcore than Ohio State. But, you know, Maryland I don't think was intimidated by that. Obviously, they came out strong. I had the 10-0 lead, kind of quieted the crowd down.

And then I thought the turning point was the pick-6 that Talea threw. Because to that point, Maryland was in control. You know, they've blown some opportunities to build maybe at 17 or 21-0-0 lead, but they still had the crowd quieted and were in control. and the pick six, I think, turned everything around. Yeah, the pick six came in the first half. They still took the lead at 17.10. I talked about it earlier, but I thought that there were three key plays in the first half

that prevented Maryland from having, you know, a comfortable halftime lead. And I'll get to those in a second, but I wanted to just get your takeaway because you have, like I have and like all the Maryland people. We know what it's been like in recent years when they've gone head to head, especially on the road with Ohio State and some of the other big boy teams in the league. Saturday felt totally, forget the final score.

Saturday felt totally different to me. It felt like they were the physical equal of Ohio State. It's the first time I felt that way. What was your takeaway, big takeaway from the 20-point loss? A 20-point loss. Yes, it was a 20-point loss. I had the exact same observation, Kevin, like I was up close on the sideline, near the end zone, I should say. And, you know, you look at Maryland's players during pre-game drills, and they really passed the look test a lot more than they did a few years ago, which is the credit to Mike Lockhart.

He's recruiting, obviously. You've got much bigger, more athletic guys that don't look like a different species from the Ohio State guys on the other end of the field anymore. I think the difference there, though, is you have those guys, which you don't have as many of them. So depth is always going to come into play when you're going against a program like Ohio State that just stacks four-star recruits on top of each other every single year. Once you get to the third quarter, if you have an injury or you're starting to really need to be able to sub in some guys, then they're bringing in a lot more talented guys, generally speaking, than you are. And once the tide kind of turned in the third quarter after Maryland took the lead and Ohio State answered really quickly with the touchdown, I think depth was definitely a factor.

Yeah, so there were three plays in the first half, Jeff for me. Number one was, you know, they are dominating in the trenches. They did in the first half. I mean, Ohio State people had 16 yards rushing in the first half. Maryland scored on an opening drive after, you know, this punt debacle for Ohio State. Then they're on the move again, up 7-0. And they're moving the football. And it's like, wow.

I just, they've done this before with Billy Edwards, where short yardage, they bring him in on a fourth and one. And they didn't get it. I thought that was a big, big play because they were going to add at least three to their lead. What did you think of that play? I've mentioned this in the past. I can't, look, it's one thing if you've got Jalen Hertz and you're going to, you know, you're going to shove it a yard and a half.

But it's shotgun and you know it's going to be a run. I'd just rather have Talia where pass as an option. I think they'd be better off. What did you think? Yeah, absolutely. I think Josh Caddick has done a solid job and play calling. I think he's been an upgrade from Danny Knows last year. But that play caught and like that one at all for,

two reasons, first of which, obviously, when Billy Edwards comes in the game, everyone in the stadium knows it's a run. So you're telegraphing what you're going to do, and then starting it out of shotgun, so he has to run, you know, five yards or whatever it is just to get to the line of scrimmage. That I didn't understand at all. I'm sure that they probably would take that one back if they could. And then obviously, Tully's decision at the end of the half to not throw the ball away and, you know, run out of time to kick the field goal, I think was very deflating also.

Yeah, the three plays are the fourth and one, the pick six at 10-0. I mean, Ohio State had gone three-and-out punt, a few plays more than that punt, three-and-out punt, three-and-out punt. They're up 10-0. They've got the ball back and you get a pick-six. And that really did flip it for a moment. But Maryland was still, you know, at 10-10 driving, long-drive end of the half. They're guaranteed to get three unless they bungle it. And it's like, I don't know, like, I said this on the radio show this morning.

I love Leah. They wouldn't be where they are without him. But there are as many head scratching plays typically from him, not at the same rate at all. But we get, you know, two or three or four of these a game where you're like, what are you doing? And in this particular case, for those that didn't watch the game, Maryland's got no timeouts. They actually had to burn their final time out with the clock. stopped, which was painful. But they're in a situation at the Ohio State, you know, they're at the Ohio State

20-19-yard line, something like that, 10, 12 seconds to go in the half. You can't throw the ball short of the sticks and you can't take a sack. Either one of those two ends the half, no points. And he throws a checkdown to Littleton for four yards and the clock runs out. Yeah. I know Lox didn't tell him to do that. No, he still, that's the thing about. him like you said, he's still, it's tough because you know he's better than any quarterback Maryland

has a long time. You know he's the biggest reason that the program's been able to turn things around. So then you're like, you know, how much can I ding this guy for his fraud? But the reality is he does have those moments, especially in big games where he, you know, he is mistake prone. And when the mistakes happen, he seems to kind of slide downhill mentally, you know, toward the second half, once he threw the second interception,

you know, Maryland had taken the lead, Ohio State tied the game, so Maryland needed to get something going there near midfield, and he's cramling to his left and forces a bad pass that's intercepted, and from there, you know, that was a huge turning point also in the second half of Ohio State scores. Maryland's next few possessions are go nowhere,

and basically the game's over from that point. Yeah, the stretch where they went for deep in their own territory. I think it was 27-17 at the time, and they ran the ball on second down, third down, and fourth and four, and just got stopped. So let's talk about the team right now. The state of this program is that Loxley has a team that, you know, in the Big Ten, and this is the last year we're going to play these divisions. thankfully, but it's not like the schedule gets a lot easier with SC in Oregon and Washington and UCLA entering the league. But this is, to me, and going into this week, this is as strong as the program's been since

the early Ralph years. Do you agree or disagree? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's not as good, clearly. I mean, Ralph won 10 games three years in a row, which is thinking back and looking at how much, that how much coaches since then have struggled to get it going at Maryland becomes more impressive, you know, year by year. But that wasn't the ACC at the same time.

So, you know, he didn't have the same. The ACC was good, but it wasn't the same level of competition. So it is reminiscent a little bit of those years, whether he can get to that level like Ralph where he was won the ACC, things like that. We'll see. But at least, you know, for Maryland fans, they have a good product, a winning team. This will be, you know, the last two years. They've won 15 games, 15 out of 20, heading into the Ohio

before the Ohio State loss. And so, you know, the stadium's starting to get full a little more. You'd like to see more fans come out. Maryland football fans are a very hard sell. You know, I think they have a collective mindset of, you're not fooling me again, right? They see these hot starts against kind of lesser competition, and then you get into the heart of it and blow out losses against teams like Ohio State. But, you know, that they're competing more last year. I thought they had a good chance

against both Ohio State and Michigan. The big question this year is not even really the win-loss record. You know, obviously you want to win as many games you can, but I think a lot of it is just can you beat one of those teams, one of those big three. You have the loss to Ohio State now, so now you have Penn State and Michigan left. And, you know, that would be the way to really take a big step forward is to be one of those teams, but that won't be easy. No, in fact, I think this is one of those weird years where I think their best chance to beat one of those big three. Not that, I mean, they've beaten Penn State before. They've beaten Michigan before, as we both know. They have not beaten Ohio State since coming into the league.

But I actually think of those three teams, Ohio State may be the most getable, the team that they just played. This is not the Ohio State offense that we've seen from the last few years, clearly. No, they're not dominant. They don't have the star quarterback. that Dave, I mean, Kyle McCourt is good, and, you know, he didn't make any mistakes. You know, he played the game manager role really well against Maryland, and I was, you know, I felt like going into the game. That was a huge thing to watch with turnovers because that's how Maryland had feasted so far. You know, they were retired for first in the country in turnover margin.

You knew they weren't going to beat Ohio State unless they won that, and they didn't force any, and they threw two interceptions, but, you know, I was, I think it was also missing Trayvion Henderson, their star running back. they're still really good, but I agree with you. And Marvin Harrison, Jr., obviously, he was the best player on the field. And that hurt Maryland in several key spots where he just took over. That was huge also.

But I agree with you. They're not, they don't look like the vintage, you know, powerhouse Ohio State team. Yeah, that's second and 33. I'd like to see that reviewed. I don't know if they did or not. Yeah. But anyway, look, they've got Illinois and Northwestern.

They still have Nebraska and Rutgers. They've got a decent chance. They'll be favored in all four of those games, you know, assuming that, you know, relative health. And a nine-win season with a chance to win 10 in a bowl game. And, you know, Penn State and Michigan are both at home. I'll tell you what, Jeff, to me, Michigan looks like this is Harbaugh's best team, and they could be the best team in the country. I know it's only October, you know, ninth or whatever it is.

But, man, they don't have a weakness it doesn't look like, and their quarterback is outstanding. No, they're really good. I think you're right, this is definitely one of his best teams. But, you know, games at home, it should be a pretty electric atmosphere. And, you know, crazy things happen in league play in those kind of situations. So, and this is one Maryland's been looking forward to for a long time. So, you know, I wouldn't be shocked if they pull off an upset against one of those teams. They'll definitely, I would think, be, you know, 10 to 14-point underdogs, probably even at home.

Penn State is really good, too. I mean, he has, Franklin also has one of his best teams. So if you're Maryland, when this is kind of the season where everything could culminate into your best season in a while, you'd love it if one of those big three was really down this year. But that's not the case. It's going to be a tough couple games. But the rest of the games, like you said, they'll be favored. And, you know, I think they should win most of those games.

It's hard to picture, you know, at Nebraska might be tough, probably 50-50 kind of game. but like you said, nine or ten wins is still very much in play. All right. Let's switch subjects real quickly because, you know, the football crowds and part of the football crowds because we at Maryland are a basketball first school. There's no doubt about it. And basketball seasons right around the corner. I've actually been surprised that they haven't been in a lot of the preseason, you know, top 25s.

I mean, the official, you know, that doesn't come out for another month. But I think this looks like very much a tournament team for sure. And it looks to me like a top 20-ish kind of a team. What about you? No, I agree with you. I'm surprised they haven't landed in that 20 to 25 range in more of these preseason polls. The athletic just came out of their Big Ten rankings and had them third, which is pretty solid. Obviously, that would equate to being a top 25 team.

I think that they are. I mean, when you look at their one-two, you know, you wonder how many teams out there have a one-two punch as good as Jamir Young and Julian Reese. Both guys were among the 10 players chosen for the preseason all big 10 teams. So you got, you know, if that's accurate, you have two of the best 10 players in the league. And then Dante Scott, obviously, if he can be the best version of him itself, very experienced, productive guy. And, you know, you add the two star recruits, obviously, Jamie Kaiser and Deshawn Harris-Smith. I think it's a really talented team. The questions are going to be, to me, outside shooting.

Is it going to be good? You know, because you don't have a proven shooter. You have several guys who can potentially be accurate shooters. And then the bench, you know, I think they really like Jordan Geronimo, the Indiana transfer. They feel like he's a lot better than he showed there. Then you have some experienced guys, like Jihari Long. And so, you know, can Julian Reese stay out of foul trouble? Is another question, obviously.

but if he keeps progressing at the rate he did at the end of last year, you know, he could be an all-American kind of guy with how fast he was improving. So long story short, I agree with you. I think that they have a chance to have a really good season. So real quickly, the projected starting five, you know, you got Jemir, you've got Julian, you've got Dante, and then Harris Smith and Kaiser, are those the other two starters, do you think?

I'd be surprised if they weren't. Yeah, I think Harris Smith was a lock to be a starter right away. If you believe the buzz about him in College Park, he's maybe a 50-50, one-and-done kind of guy like that good. A lot of people are picking him for a big 10 freshman of the year. So he'll start obviously. And then I think Kaiser and Geronimo have been kind of competing during the offseason. But I feel like, you know, Kaiser's shooting will earn him that spot. at the three, and he's been super impressive.

He was their leading score on the Italy trip, I believe. So I think, yeah, you'll get those two freshmen starting with the three really experienced veterans. The kid that they transferred from, I think it was Loyola, Merrimount. I'm forgetting his name right now. He was supposedly a big-time shooter. Is he the one that got injured? Yeah, I think a Patela injury for him. He had surgery a couple of months.

months ago. He's back at it on the court posting videos. I think he posted one where he made like 46 out of 53s in the open gym. He can really, obviously, that's in an open gym with no defender, but that's impressive regardless. And he's really got a good stroke, but I don't know if he'll be back this year. He's rehabbing. And I would think if he is able to make it back, it'd be mid or late season, but that's still to be determined. Appreciate it. As always, I hope you're well. I mean, for that first two and a half quarters, I was like, oh, my God, they legitimately have a chance to win this game. I really can't believe that it ended up being a game that they didn't even cover in.

But, man, I thought for the first time watching them against, you know, Ohio State in particular, because we've seen them against some lesser Michigan teams, lesser Penn State teams, lesser Michigan state teams. You know, we've seen those wins, you know, here and there, although I think the last Michigan win came pretty much in the first year in the Big Ten, if my memory serves me correctly. But, man, I just thought physically they've been overmatched in recent years, and Saturday they weren't, and that that was a tremendous sign. Yeah, the final score is extremely misleading. You know, if you just looked at the score, you'd think that they got dominated in reality. It was a 50-50 game for about two and a half quarters. But, you know, quarterback play to Leah making some familiar mistakes.

And then, like I said, the depth, you know, especially in the defensive backfield for Maryland, Tar Heap still. And Dante Trader was injured during the game. And, you know, it's hard to keep up with the team that, like I said, that kind of talent, not only in starting lineup, but also the two deep. But I agree with you. as opposed to previous trips to Ohio State where they were just clearly inferior, you know, they didn't look like that different of a caliber team for a good chunk of the game.

Yeah. Great job. Really appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon. Jeff, thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me, Kevin. Jeff Erman, everybody. You know, usually this time of year as a Maryland fan, you're counting down the days until basketball season,

but not so much anymore. I mean, I still am counting down the days until basketball season. But this has been a fun football season for Maryland, and we're only halfway through it. All right. Up next, Gary Myers, longtime NFL writer, Hall of Fame NFL writer, will join me to talk about his book on the 86 Giants. There's a lot of Redskins in this story. That's next, after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, we are firmly entrenched in football season, five weeks into the NFL.

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Their barbecue is excellent. Jumping on with me right now is Gary Myers. Gary is a long time NFL writer, NFL historian. He's an NFL Hall of Fame voter. And he has a new book out. It is called Once a Giant. It's a story of victory, tragedy, and life after football. You can get it anywhere you get books, including at Amazon.com.

You can follow Gary on Twitter at Gary Myers-N-Y. Gary, thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Look, we know that 86 Giants team here in D.C. They beat Washington three times that year, including in the NFC championship game. Why don't you just start off by giving everybody kind of an overview? of what the book includes. Yeah, Kevin, and thanks to having me on.

The book is really about life after football. It's not a reminiscing 86 season or or recounting on a game-by-game basis the road to the championship. The context they put the 86 season in is how this team really became a brotherhood. by winning a title together and how 37 years later that bond has remained really strong as these players grow old together.

But the focus on the book is really what their lives are like now, that they're in their 50s and 60s and a couple of them in their 70s, and with the impact of playing football for a long period of time has had on them, you know, mentally and physically, and in some cases because of really mounting medical bills, the impact it's had on them financially. And, you know, Kevin, as far as I know, this is the first book that's really focused on this issue. And then specifically with one team,

I've made the point to others that, although I did write about the 86 Giants, it really could have been about any team because these problems that they're going through as a result of playing football are not unique to them. have been the 86 anybody. You know, it's just like I just happened to focus on this team because I know the players so well and I live in New York.

All right. That's interesting because I didn't necessarily expect it to be primarily about that. But let's start there. What are the problems? Obviously, we're all NFL fans and we understand life after this very violent sport. What are the problems? and give me some specifics of some of the players and what they're dealing with right now?

Yeah, I mean, we've all heard the last decade or so about CTE, and that's certainly a major concern for all players, not just from that generation, but the things and the challenges that these players have had goes way beyond just worrying about CTE or any memory loss. issues that they're having. There are some real mental health issues,

certainly a lot of physical issues. You know, for example, there are a few players that have had, you know, too many surgeries to count on two hands. And, you know, a play like Mark Bavarro recently went through a six or seven month ordeal of long COVID, that there's a belief that the virus attacked his brain rather than his lungs, and they feel that maybe that happened because his brain was weakened by all the concussions that he suffered during his NFL career. I don't know there's any strict medical proof of that, but it's certainly a theory that might

be valid. So that's just like a recent issue that he's gone through. But, you know, he had pretty serious knee problems towards the end of his career. And, you know, Lawrence Taylor, well documented with his drug problems. And although he swears and his friends have backed us up that he has not done drugs since he got out of rehab, which was not his first visit, by the way, in 1998, that. after he got out of rehab, then he stayed away from drugs, but he certainly had his share of problems in other areas.

Maurice Carthon, a fullback suffered a stroke. William Roberts, an offensive lineman, had a tumor removed from his brain. Fortunately, it was benign, but obviously that's a pretty scary situation. Brad Benson, offensive lineman, who had those great battles with Dexter Manifes, finally has had all kinds of physical problems. And this is a guy who did not have a surgery during his career, but has had too many to even for me to recount off the top of my head, and he's had financial problems as well.

You know, on the flip side of it, there's guys like Harry Carson, specifically who was a captain of that team and considering himself captain for life. you know, we always hear about the Parcells guys, but Harry says they're my guys too. And Phil Sims has been very helpful with a lot of his former teammates. So you have two really terrific guys in Carson and Sims. And there's others who have kind of taken on the role of if you have a problem, let me know. And we're going to round up the troops to get you whatever help that we can.

Bill Parcells has paid out about $4 million total to about 20 of his former players who have come to him in financial crisis, whether it's for medical bills or helping to make mortgage payments. Parcells has doled out $4 million to some of these players that played for him that are in need? Yeah, now, I want to be really clear here, not $4 million to any individual. individual player. Right. $4 million in total to 20 players. Now, some have gotten more than others because their needs have been greater.

But, you know, I thought that was such a great humanitarian story and showed parcels in a light that people never realized more aware of that I wanted to write about it really early in the book. And I was sitting with him in his living room and his winter home in Florida. and he brought that up just in the course of the conversation. I mean, I had no idea. And a lot of us players have no idea because it's not like he's going out and advertising it,

and he wasn't telling it to me in order for people to say, oh, you know, that's a really nice thing Bill was doing. He was more that he was sad about it, that the players had to come to him. But when I said to him, Bill, you know, why are you doing this? You don't have to do this. He just feels, you know, he's saved the money that he feels he needs to live the rest of his life.

We all hope it's another 40 years. He's just turned 82. He's put away money for his kids, put away money for his ex-wife, put away some money to, you know, he owns horses, and that's not a cheap proposition.

And then he said whatever's left, and I assume it's a sizable chunk, he says it's for friends of his who come to him and are in trouble. And he considers his former players, his friends now. And they, in his mind, they sacrifice so much for him. He was a tough coach. You know, physically, he was very demanding two days, just about every day in pads and training

camp. I mean, right now, by comparison, these players go to day camp when they go to training camp, which is probably good for them in terms of, you know, their long-term health. I don't think it really helped the quality of the game, but that's a completely different story. But, you know, Bill feels that these guys sacrificed to help him win two Super Bowls, which led to him being a hall of favor. And he's so thankful and appreciative for all the sacrifices they made for him that the way he can help them out now at this point in their lives is by writing them checks to relieve the concern and anxiety that come with financial problems, then he's more than willing to do it. I mean, incredible, by the way, about Parcells, who, you know, even as, you know,

a fan of Washington and of that era in particular, the Giants were such heated rivals. I've just always felt like Parcells is one of the greatest of all time. I actually want to ask you a little bit about him in a moment. But you mentioned Harry Carson and some of the guys that have kind of taken the leadership role on. What about Belichick? Well, Belichick has stayed in touch with a lot of these guys. he's had Harry Carson come to the team hotel

to speak to the Patriots before games I think that Barbaro makes it the Patriots training camp every now and then it's always great when someone asked them like last week the last couple weeks when the Patriots

are playing the Cowboys and everybody thinks that Michael Parsons is in Lawrence Taylor and we only had about 15 of those since Lawrence retired by the way everybody's always looking for the next, you know, Montana or Brady or whatever. So everybody's always looking for the next Lawrence Taylor. And just looking to talk to Belichick rather talk about Taylor,

you know in his mind there'll never be another one. And but just as far as his involvement with them, you know, again, remember he's still coaching. Right. Fair. I think the players are very respectful of that. But they do text with him all the time. congratulate him on big wins.

Yeah, Belichick, it took the players a little while to warm up to him when Parcells promoted him to be defensive coordinator. You know, you have a guy who never played in the NFL, been playing college. At the time, he looked like some players described him, as he looked like he just came off the beach. And now he's the defensive coordinator. I mean, Lawrence, for one, was going to Bill. What are you doing here? and it didn't take them very long to realize that he was really special and that he was going to put them into position to win, which as a result was going to put them into position to make a lot of money. And so they warmed up to Belichick pretty quickly, and a lot of them have stayed in contact with him.

And his relationship with Parcells now is a friendship. and I think that's been like the last five years before then. I don't think they've looked at each other as friends. I think they were business partners, but as they've gotten older, and they realize how much each one of them is meant to the other's career, and to their own careers, rather, I think there's been a real appreciation, you know, of the two bills that they have for each other.

Well, that 30 for 30 was so well done, and it really did look like kind of, you know, a reconciliation of sorts. So, Kevin, I'll tell you a story. Yeah, please. So when I was meeting with Parcells, I think it was like a Monday or a Tuesday or something. And he goes, yeah, it's too bad. You're not going to be down here the rest of the week. And I go, why? He goes, Belichuk called me yesterday.

He's coming. And this was like in March of 22. So it was the offseason. Belichick goes down to Florida during the offseason a bunch. And whenever he does, he always gets a whole barceles and they try to get together. So he said that he was meeting Belichick the upcoming Saturday morning, so like five days later, at a place called Bagel Bistro, which is around the corner from Parcells's house.

And just to try to get a little color from my book, I went to Bagel Bistro and it's just a nondescript place in a strip shopping center off of Route 1 in South Florida. And I was just thinking to myself, you know, anybody who, you know, is coming into that bagel place that Saturday morning and looks off to the side and is a football fan. Let me get a baker's dozen. I'll take four poppy, four, wait a minute. What are you guys doing here? Right. You know, the two of them having bagels and cream cheese and a cup of coffee, two of the greatest coaches in NFL history. I wish I was there, if nothing else,

and just to get a picture of. You know, when you mentioned, and I missed it last week, that Belichick was asked about Michael Parsons. I do remember a few years ago, and I've played this sound on the show before when they were asking them about Khalil Mack, they were playing the Raiders, I think it was. It was Belichick going,

you know, we're talking about Lawrence Taylor here. We're talking about L.T. Do you guys, for those of you that watched them, why are we having this conversation? And for those of you that didn't, you better go back and watch because for me, Gary, LT is the

greatest all-around football player of my era of watching football, which goes back to the 70s. I just think, I mean, there have been a lot of great ones, but Lawrence Taylor is clearly the greatest defensive player, and I think maybe the greatest all-around football player of my lifetime. You know, I think you can put Lawrence and Jim Brown. That's before my lifetime. Jerry Rice is. Yeah.

And then, yeah, I didn't get to, I don't remember much about Jim Brown either, but, and then you can literally flip a coin, in my opinion, between Montana and Brady. I pretty much think they're the same player. It's just that Tom didn't have the physical problems that Joe did and, you know, won a few more Super Bowls. But, you know, in Super Bowls, Joe had 13 touchdowns and no interest. you know, 11 or 13 touchdowns, and no interceptions. I mean, he was amazing in the Super Bowl. Brady just lasted longer and has more championships. But I think as players are very similar.

But just as far as, you know, who's the greatest individual player, I would say one of those four. You can put those four in any order, except I wouldn't put Lawrence any lower than two, probably. And depending on what you want to call, you know, Montana or Brady, pick one of the two, and if you want to put the quarterback first, I don't have a problem with it. But Lawrence just was just an incredible player. He really changed the game. You hear that about a lot of players.

He goes, yeah, really? How did he change the game? H-back. Yeah, I mean, the H-back and Bill Walsh in a playoff game in 1981, sliding a guard out to get the second shot of Taylor after he would blow pass. the offensive cackle. I mean, there's just so many things that changed. The edge rusher became a thing from the outside linebacker position.

There's just so many things that Lawrence did that nobody had ever done before. I mean, he was 6'3, 245 and just ran like hell and would chase down running backs from behind. I mean, he was just great. And, you know, one of the things that I asked him, Kevin, I had one of the great interviewing days of all time. When I had Parcells at his house in the morning, I drove about a half an hour to where Joe Namath was having his charity golf tournament the same day. And I met with Lawrence after he finished playing.

So I had a couple hours with Parcells, an hour with Lawrence. And I get back on the plane the next day, I go, well, it's just not going to get better than that. Because they were both just incredible in the interviews. You know, I have so many memories of that team and of that season, and not just the matchups against Washington. I mean, I remember how they completely destroyed San Francisco. I mean, they shut out Washington on that windy day at the Meadowlands, 17, nothing, but it was like 49 to 7 in the divisional round. Don't overestimate. It was 49 to 3.

49 to 3. Okay, there you go. But I remember the first meeting with Washington, and I'm sure you know this, was the same night that the Red Sox and Mets played Game 7 at Che. Because a game 7 had been rained out on Sunday night. They moved it to Monday night. So it was Redskins Giants in the Meadowlands on Monday night football. And it was Red Sox Mets game seven. But that was a competitive game. But the game that was for the division and basically, you know, the one seed in the NFC playoffs was at RFK late in the season.

And my God, LT just was awesome in that game. And then that was for us, that was a recognition that Giants are better. They're just better. But we got a shot. And Joe always seemed to come up big in the postseason. By the way, let me ask you, Joe Gibbs or Bill Parcells. I think you're partial here, but you're also a Hall of Fame voter. an NFL historian, Gibbs or Parcells?

I'm not really partial to Parcells or Gibbs. I mean, two of my favorite coaches of all time. I've always had a great relationship with Gibbs. And in 1986, people may not realize, in reading this book, that Dallas, 96, covering the Cowboys, I was there from late 81 to the spring of 89. But because I covered the Giants, and then I covered the Giants, and Jets as a columnist when I moved back in 89, I knew players on both ends of that run.

And there was a lot of players in 86 who were on the team in 81, and a lot of players in 89 when I came back that were on the team in 86. So in 1986, in 1986, at that point, I was actually the NFL columnist for the Dallas Morning News. And so I wound up covering a lot of the giant games, a lot of NFC East games that year that did not involve the Calais. So I felt like I was around the Giants, an awful lot around Washington. Right. An awful lot that year, because those were the two best teams, in my opinion, in the conference.

So I, to pick between those two, boy, boy, I thought that Gibbs was a master with the X's and O's on offense. and I think that Parcells, although he's a really good exes and O's guy, you know, Belichick ran the defense and Ron Earhart ran the offense, and Bill was the CEO. I didn't think it was a better game manager, maybe in the history. I didn't think. I didn't think. Let me change it to.

I don't think there's a better game manager in the history of the league than Parcells, both in managing. the clock, his timeouts, having a feel for his team, whether the go for it on fourth down or not, went to call a fake punt or a fake field goal. He just had this innate sense of what would work based on his feel for the game, and I don't think anybody was better than him at that. And you give me either one of those guys, and I'd be happy. But if I had to pick one, one, I've got to answer to that because they were both I probably picked Parcells

because I think he had an extraordinary ability to make sure he pushed all the right buttons before games and whether it was telling Taylor that Gibbs

had no respect for him, even though Parcells completely made that up and Joe to this day, in fact the last time I talked to Joe about two months ago, he still brings that up, how Parcells intentionally irritated Parcells by making up stuff that the Redskins was saying about him and had no basis in fact, but got Taylor all fired up. Well, just so you know, Parcells head-to-head with Gibbs. He was the only one that had an advantage against Gibbs head-to-head. He was 14 and 9 head-to-head against Gibbs.

And they had the one playoff game, the NFC championship game in 86, which the Giants were the superior team. You know this. I mean, I think the argument people would make about Joe is Joe did something that still has never been matched before. He won three different Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks.

You know, people still, people make a big thing out of the hogs being the constant, but the hogs changed, too, between the 82 team and the 91 team. Jake was still there. Jacoby was still there. Grimm was still there, but they had different roles. Bostick was there. But there were, you know, they had Jim Lachey, who was actually, I think, one of the more underrated tackles in the history of the franchise. But, you know, there's that. But then again, Parcells, I mean, you know,

he had Jeff Hostetler in that Super Bowl. Well, yeah, I could think so Parcells won two with two different quarterbacks. Yeah, right. I would say that of all the years I cover the league, the mid to late 90s and going through the early 90s, 80s into the 90s, yes. I'm sorry, 80s, right. Say like from 85 to maybe through the Jimmy Johnson years in Dallas would be 1993. That was the best football I've ever seen.

and Pardels and Buddy Ryan and Landry and Landry and Landry and the Cowboys was still good

in the mid-80s it just doesn't get any better than that no and all I really liked all four coaches you know but he was a blowhard but he was fun to be around

and you know Landry had the stone face image but you know I was around from every day for a lot of years and I had so much respect for him

and I think once you got to know them, you realized the image wasn't quite correct. And Joe, when I used to go to Redskins Park, and after Joe's press conference, he would just sit around and Kibbitts, you know, with the players, I'm sorry, with the media, and just chat with us, and that was so much fun. And Parcells always did that. And it was just so much different, the relationship between the media and the players and the media and the coaches was so much different then.

They didn't treat the media as the enemy, and it didn't really prevent any of those guys from winning championships now. You ask a coach, which ankle a guy twisted, and he'll say it was the left or the right. He won't even tell you which ankle it was. Yeah.

So somehow it became a transition there where secrecy became the way to win, which, you know, is obviously ludicrous. That was just a great era. That was a great era. Do you think in 86 playing Washington a rival? Because, look, in the 70s and really through much of the 80s, Redskins Cowboys was not just the rivalry in the division. It was the best rivalry in the league.

It was one of the best rivalries in sports. And when Dallas started to wane a little bit, you know, towards the, you know, when Jimmy came in with Jerry and, And even before that a little bit, Redskins Giants was white-hot as a rivalry there for, you know, during those Parcell's Gibbs years. I remember what I felt like and what this fan base felt like when they went to the Super Bowl beating the Cowboys in 82. They also beat the Cowboys in 72 to go to their first Super Bowl. But there's still never a stadium, Gary, that I've been in, an RFK Stadium on that day when they played the Cowboys in the NFC title game. following the 82 season. And it was very important, I think.

And the Super Bowl, in many ways, became anti-climactic, even to the players, like all the players that I know very well from that era, they'll all tell you, Joe will tell you, Jake will tell you, Doc will tell you, they'll all tell you the Super Bowl was nothing compared to beating the Cowboys in the NFC title game at home. I don't think that the Giants felt the same way about that game, but was it big to them to? to beat a rival to get to the Super Bowl? Well, sure, especially because everybody said you can't be the team three times in one season.

Right. And then they went out and dominated them. But I always felt that the Giants' biggest rival was the Cowboys. And the years I worked in Dallas, I didn't get the sense that it was that the Cowboys felt that way about the Giants. the Cowboys felt that way about the Redskins. Yeah. And to a lesser extent, the Eagles. And I kind of put the Giants third on that list because if you have to remember,

the Giants were bad for a lot of years. Yeah. And the Cowboys, when I got to Dallas in the early 80s, the Giants were just kind of an afterthought in the Cowboys' minds. It was a key. They had their focus on Washington all the time. and I remember being in RFK for a lot of those cowboy Redskins. I keep calling the Redskins.

I hope that's okay. It's totally fine on this show, yes. But I just remember sitting in the press box at RFK and the lower level of the stands just shaking. Yeah. And the press box shaking. And I'm going, oh, my God, we're going down on the ship here. This thing is going to fall apart because the fans were just intense, not intense,

but intense and I mean you can just feel it in that stadium it was just it was amazing and the giants the giants loved playing in there

there was a scene where Parcells and Sims were coming out of the dugout and they were getting booed as they got to the top step at the dugout and Parcells turned to Sims and said boy

they really hate us here you know and they embrace them that. Yeah, I've heard Parcells and Sims talk about that, you know, one of the biggest satisfactions was to come to D.C. to come to RFK and win and silence the crowd. It was that way for the Cowboys, too. I mean, look, the Meadowlands was an incredible environment. The vet was. I mean, Texas Stadium was a little bit different, but it was, like you said, that

era was just incredible with the, you know, all four teams being really, really good, and the Giants, Washington, and Dallas being Super Bowl good, you know, for so many of those years. I miss those days. You know, here, as you know, we went through a quarter century of essentially having a lot of that passion chased away by terrible ownership. And hopefully that'll turn back the other way because it was a great fan base and a very passionate one. I want to ask you one more thing before we go, because you're still a Hall of Fame voter, right? Right. Why isn't Joe Jacoby in the Hall of Fame?

You know, it's a really interesting that you would ask me in particular that question because I'm on the senior committee. And the way it works is, you know, there's 12 of us. And if there's a player from your area, like I'm always assigned to make the presentation on behalf of any of the judges. and then Bob Glauver, who used to work at Newsday, takes care of the Giants. Anyway, so if you don't have a player that you are automatically going to present, such as, like, a year ago, I did Joe Kleco because he was a former jet. This year, I didn't have anybody that was no automatic.

So they asked you to pick three guys that you would be comfortable presenting, thing, and then they try to match you up with one of those three. So I had Jacoby on my list this year, and they signed me to make the presentation on Joe, because, you know, I felt like I'd seen him play almost his entire career with all the Washington, New York, and Washington Dallas games that he played in. But I didn't really know Joe. So regardless of who I present, I put my heart into it. And I do a lot of research, and I talk to a lot of people, and, you know, I reconnected with Joe Gibbs,

and we talked a lot. And I was heartbroken for heartbroken for Joe Jacoby when he didn't make it this year. And I just don't feel there's been a true appreciation of him starting on all those Super Bowl teams and what a great

and dominant player he was. It's just very hard, Kevin. When you go through the 20 years as a modern year candidate, it and you don't make it. Now you get put in the senior pool with every player who's ever played in the NFL

who's not in the Hall of Fame. And trust me, we got a list this year to start with 190 players. And there was some really that Joe Jacoby's competing against and they're competing against him. So it was

really difficult when I had a call and tell him that he didn't get in this year. I mean, I talked to him a bunch on the phone in leading up to it, and I grew to really like him. I mean, I started with no relationship with him at all, and by the time we were done, I said, hey, if I don't have a giant or jet

to present next year, would you like me to do it for you again? Because, you know, I want to see if we can get so momentum going to get you in, and he goes, I don't want anybody to do it but you. And I said, you know, I take that as a real compliment, and I hope, you know, the other voters feel strongly about you as I do. So I can't, I can never answer these questions.

Why? I mean, how did the guy like that make it through 20 years? I think you can make a case that he was a better player than Russ Grimm. And Russ Grimm got in a long time ago. So may I ask you this? because this is an important, you know, topic for all of us around here. Give me a couple of highlights of your pitch this year on Joe. Well, I mentioned that he'd never given up a sack in one in any of the three Super Bowls.

And I think maybe one sack in all the playoff games, or if it wasn't one, it was a very low total, that he was the guy that you can connect the dots on the hogs from the 82 Super Bowl to the 91 Super Bowl. How many Hall of Famers he went against in his career and what his performance was against those. I mean, when you do offensive linemen, you know, you really have to dig a little bit because it's not like a wide receiver where you can talk. about yards and catches and touchdowns. You know, so you have to, you know, really do research to find meaningful stats for offensive linemen.

And then, you know, just talking to guys like Howie Long and Randy White, who endorsed Joe, you know, with all their heart and their Hall of Famers, John Riggins was so passionate about Jacoby. So I put together where I thought was a pretty strong presentation. The problem is that there were 12 really viable candidates, and Joe didn't make it as one of the three, but it doesn't mean it's not going to happen next year. And, you know, the hardest thing, Kevin, is when you have to call a player,

and it's not really our responsibility to do that. The Hall of Fame does it. But, you know, after talking to Jacoby for two months, I felt like he needed to hear it from me, not from somebody at the Hall of Fame that he didn't even know. Which happened a few years ago in San Francisco. Yeah, somebody knocked on his door. Yeah, he told me that story.

It's a really hard thing to say to a guy there's always next year. Or, you know, I'm going to do this a little differently next year and hopefully that'll put you over the top when I have no guarantee that it will, but I'm going to try hard for him. It's really hard. You know, I know, I told him the story for my own personal thing.

I've been a finalist for the Hall of Fame for the Writers' Wing for like eight years already. And it's just five of us who get nominated. I've been nominated almost every year since I left the Daily News in 2018, and I haven't gotten in yet. And the first couple of years it really got me bummed out. and my wife would go, ah, you know, you wait until next year. I said, I'm tired of waiting until next year. And I've completely divorced myself emotionally from it now to the point that I really don't care, but it's different for us.

I mean, they put a plaque up in some room that probably nobody goes into it the whole thing because it's not where the bus are. It's just different for the players. I mean, they're being validated. There's only like 360 people in it for the 10, and tens of thousands of players and coaches and management people, it's a validation that you would want the best ever. And so I understand.

With me, I understand how hard it is, them to find out you don't get in and, you know, better left next year. And these guys aren't 25 years old. Right. You know, hopefully they all live to 120, but. No, I know. I'm curious, though, because you mentioned Randy White. I know Lawrence Taylor has pushed for Joe to be in the Hall of Fame.

What about Parcells and Belichick? I mean, especially having somebody like Bill from today's game speak about Joe. Has he been approached or would he be willing? I mean, he coached against him. Yes. No, I contacted Parcells, Taylor, Howie Long, Riggins and Randy White. And I don't think I was able to get a hold of Belichick for this

because they were in the middle of training camp when we voted. But Parcell said, I came to respect the enemy. And Lawrence, who had some big games. He had three sacks against Jacoby in that 86 game. He did. At RFK, yep. That you mentioned.

But he had the, he said, and I've never heard him say this about any other offensive tackle. He said at the end of the day, when they finished playing each other against each other, you think there was a toss-up who had the edge. Because let's just call it 50-50. And for Lawrence, to admit that, takes a lot. So it shows you how much you... And, you know, Howie felt the same way,

and Riggins was so passionate about what Jacoby meant to his career. And, you know, Randy Way, who probably didn't go head-to-head with Jacoby a lot because Randy played in the middle of the Cowboys defense. Right. Certainly saw him. enough, he was also, again, very passionate about it. So it's hard for me to tell Jacobi all these things and then followed up with a phone call of, sorry, but, you know, I couldn't convince.

And I shouldn't have, you know, it's an uncomfortable position that they put us in, you know, to be campaigning for players that we're supposed to be objective, right? And, I mean, we're journalists. But the way this whole process works is when you're making a presentation for a player, you're trying to help them. And so by accentuating all the positive things and trying to deflect some in the negative things, and you almost sound like a PR person when you do it, I just try to take a really professional approach to it and just present the information, you know, matter-factly, and come to a conclusion basically of what else do you want a Hall of Fame tackle to have accomplished?

Right. What did Joe Jacoby not do that's keeping him out of the Hall of Fame? You know, ask yourself that question. Well, hopefully next year you pitch it, it works. And I can tell you, it's not just because everybody believes that they watched a Hall of Fame left tackle. it's because he's just one of the real genuine nice people that's ever been a part of this organization and I think everybody feels like he deserves it

and they're rooting so hard for him. And to be an undrafted free agent. Exactly. It's pretty amazing. This was great. I really appreciate it. I wish you the best of luck with the book. Again, the book is called Once a Giant,

a Story of Victory, Tragedy, and Life After, football. It's really a story about the 86 Giants and what happened after they won a Super Bowl together in their relationships today. I wish you the best of luck with the book, Gary. Thank you so much. And Kevin, if I can just mention to your listeners that it's available all over Amazon, all the bookstores, and there's plenty of interesting things from the 86 rivalry between the Giants and Washington that even if the fans down there hate the Giants. I certainly would understand that.

I think they'll enjoy reading some of the things about, you know, it's surrounded those three games that we've talked about. What's the best story? What's the best story from those three games? So the Friday before the game at RFK in the regular season, Lauren had a habit of starting his weekend Thursday night. He probably actually started his weekend on Monday. night.

But he comes in late to the Friday defensive meeting, and the lights were off in the room, and Lamar Leachman, the defensive line coach was addressing the players, and they're trying to come up with a scheme to come up with some sacks and how to beat Jacoby. And everything that they came up with for one reason or another, they rejected it. And so Lawrence walks in the room. He's got a baseball cap on or a hood of. sweatshirt and he and those rooms had the

if you remember the desk chairs that we used to have in grade school with the arms that you can lift up and down right so Lawrence just curls up in a ball under the chair and he had his sunglasses on and he goes to sleep and Lamar Leachman at one point

you know probably five minutes into he goes damn it Lawrence we're playing for the division title of the number one seed in the conference In two days, I would think you'd want to pay attention here. And Lawrence looks up, he goes, he just woke me up. What do you need? And he goes, they go, well, we're trying to figure out, you know, ways to beat Jacoby.

So Lawrence gets up on the chalkboard. It devises some scheme. They all look at each other and go, this is brilliant. Why didn't we think of it? Thanks, Lawrence. he goes, all right, you let me go back to sleep now? Oh, man.

That's... He throws up on his ball under his chair and goes back to sleep. And 48 hours later, he sacks Jay Schrader, I think it was. Yeah, with Schrader. Three times by going against Jacobi.

So that was the brilliance of Lawrence that basically just put him out on the field. It's like with Michael Jordan, you just roll the ball out there and say, you know, be Michael Jordan. With Lawrence, just make sure you get him to the game, and that was never a problem. And then, you know, once one o'clock or whatever rolled around,

Parcell has never had to worry about him because he was, he didn't take one play off his entire career. You know, on that game, and I just looked it up because I wanted to see, you know, when you said Schrader, I'm pretty, I was pretty sure Schrader threw like an ungodly number of picks in that game. he threw six interceptions in that game. Six. Did he really?

Yeah. Six interceptions. Washington had seven turnovers in that game and lost 24 to 14. My recollection and just looking through it, it really wasn't much of a game. The Giants were the better team. Yeah, I covered that game. I remember that game. I don't remember the six interceptions.

Six interceptions in a game. I'll give you one of a little nugget about Jacoby. and Taylor. On the play that Taylor broke Thaisman's leg, Jacobi was not in the game. Right. No, I know. I don't know if he was just sitting out of play or he missed the game, but he was not on the field when Thaisman broke his leg. No, he wasn't.

And Taylor came around. Yeah. All right, this was awesome. Thank you so much. Best of luck with the book, Gary. Thanks so much, Kevin. Gary Myers, everybody. I had no idea that he had been the presenter for Jacobi's last attempt at the Hall of Fame.

Hopefully it'll happen sometime soon. All right, that is it for the day back tomorrow with Tom.