The Kevin Sheehan Show - Reducing Antonio Gibson's Role?

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

Kevin with a ton more on the draft with help from Ben Standig/The Athletic. They discussed the picks in more detail, why Sam Howell isn't your typical 5th round QB pick, and where Washington ranks in the NFC East after the bulk of the offseason is now completed. Kevin thinks the drafting of Brian Robinson Jr. could mean the team is down on Antonio Gibson. He discussed this in the open of the show and then with Ben as well.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. Lots of draft talk on the show today. Ben Standing will join us here shortly. If you missed the show yesterday, I went through in detail what I think of the draft. And then we had on the show Nick Ackridge, who is a DC sports fan, a Washington football fan,

and a senior data analyst for Pro Football Focus. He was great. On radio this morning had Mike Loxley talking about the two Alabama players, which he was a part of when he was at Bama as Sabin's offensive coordinator, the Brian Robinson Jr. and the Phil Mathis picks. We had on the show this morning, Sean King. Sean hosts the radio show with Tim Murray out in Vegas on the VISA network. I think Sean King is the biggest Sam.

Hal fan in America. So for those two interviews alone, along with Joe Thysman, I would urge you to listen to this morning's radio show as well. Lots of really good ratings and reviews from you guys. I much appreciate it. This from Iron Brank, what do we have to do to get Kurt Cousins to present Kevin with the DC Sports Podcast Association Award? I'll ask him. I talk to Kirk every once in a while via text. I'll ask him if he'll do that.

This from Matt Avis, 50-50. Kevin and Tom are a dynamic duo. You gave us five stars. Appreciate that. This from Richard in Maryland, five stars. In spite of the fact, I'm now a Ravens fan. I listen to the podcast every day. I completely agree with your opinion that Snyder is destroyed a once proud franchise. Great sports talk with good humor. I thoroughly enjoy. enjoy the show, Richard. Thank you for that, Richard. And then from Mr. Positive, two stars. That might be the lowest rating we have gotten in a while. And he titles his review, Mr. Negative and his sidekick.

I don't think they ever say anything positive. Used to listen all the time, but I just can't anymore. Well, you've listened enough recently to have me ask. for your rating and review. I would ask if you're going to give us a bad rating and review, don't do it. Because really these are so important to our ability to create a business, a viable business around this podcast. But of course, I want you to be honest.

It's funny because I put out, and I'll talk to Ben about this as well, I did record Ben a little bit earlier, and so you'll hear that in a moment. but I put out a Twitter poll yesterday asking the following question, and that is, who thinks Sam Howell will eventually be the starting quarterback here? 4,120 votes, 61.2% said yes he will. 38.8% said, no, he won't. And prior to that poll, I tweeted out, I'm entertained by those with a definitive opinion about a team's NFL draft,

the day after it ends, that's balzy. The grades are the best, exclamation point. On another note, Sam Hal starts games, plural. Games plural this year. Developmental third string and then two laughing emojis. You guys are easy, and I love the people that responded, an overwhelming number of people that responded with, you're trying to start a quarterback controversy.

as if somehow we have the ability to avoid a quarterback conversation in this town after they drafted Sam freaking Howl. I know he was at the top of the fifth round, okay? But there's no chance that they drafted Sam Howell thinking that everybody would just understand. Yeah, this is a fifth round throwaway developmental, might make the team, might not, guy to have in training camp, third string default. No, it's Sam Howl. I pointed that out on yesterday's podcast. And Ben and I are going to have a conversation which you will hear in which Ben kind of agrees with that, that this is a guy that's been in the conversation now for two years, you know, and Ben made

the comment, he said, I bet you in the last two weeks, we could find somebody who tweeted out at some point that Sam Howe was going to sneak into the first round of the draft. And I said, yeah, I agree. And right after I finished interviewing Ben for this podcast, he sent me John Kime, who tweeted out on April 15th, so two weeks ago, roughly, would not be surprised by this. And he retweeted a tweet from Jim Nagy, who is the executive director of the Senior Bowl, and he tweeted out, based on conversations with NFL scouts during pro-day season, Sam Howell sneaking into the first round is one of the likely surprises of day one.

Dan Orlovsky on April 15th said, Best Deep Ball in the draft, Sam Howell, teams that should draft them in rounds two, three or four, so you didn't say first round, Tennessee, Atlanta, Seattle, or Minnesota. I bet if we looked long and hard, we could find others that in the weeks leading up to the draft still thought Sam Hal might be that third quarterback. There was always this thought it was going to go picket Willis or Willis Pickett, but there would be a third quarterback taken in the first round. Well, there wasn't. There was only one quarterback, as we know, taken in the first round, Kenny Pickett.

And then the next quarterback was Desmond Ritter at 74 overall 10th pick of the third round. and then Willis came. But, yeah, drafting Sam Howell at any point in this draft was going to raise eyebrows. And if you think that the media will start some sort of quarterback controversy, it won't be necessary if Washington doesn't get a really good performance from its starting quarterback and win games early in the year. That's always been this town. It's always any town.

Let me repeat what I mentioned on the podcast yesterday. I am thrilled that they drafted a quarterback in this draft that they liked. And I do believe that there were at least a few people in that organization that really liked Sam Howe and have liked Sam Howe. I really believe that to be true. And I'm glad they did it. I'm glad that, you know, the name Sam Howell, they weren't afraid to draft him, even if it was at the beginning of the fifth round. They weren't afraid to, you know, put a guy like Sam Hal with a big time reputation into the quarterback room with Carson Wentz. And you can say, you know, Jalen Hurts second round and, you know, really triggered an overly sensitive Wentz in Philadelphia.

but Hal's a fifth rounder. But really, Hal and Jalen Hertz, in terms of, you know, their prospect, you know, a couple of weeks or a couple of months before the draft, kind of the same kind of guy. Just Hertz was taken, you know, after, you know, a boatload of quarterbacks, you know, Burrow and Tua and Herbert and then Jordan Love surprisingly. And then Hertz came off the board before other guys like Jake Fromm and Jake Easton, Jacob Easton in that draft. we're potentially going to come off. But anyway, I'm happy they took them. Quarterback controversy, you know, the media doesn't start. The fan, you know, slash media community, which all of us have been a part of for so long. Some, you know, as passionate as you used to be and some others not nearly as passionate as we used to be, have been in this community of asking each other and, and,

discussing these things for years. The backup quarterback in every town is an important part of the conversation when you don't have a clear-cut, a clear-cut elite franchise quarterback, and this organization does not. With that said, I had Sabah, our friend from North Carolina, calling this morning and say that it was going to be an open competition going into camp. No, it is not. Okay? I don't think any of you agree with that. But I'm bringing it up for those that might think, oh, well, they should compete for this job, and Taylor Heineke should be part of it. No, there are 28.3 million reasons why Carson Wentz is going to be the quarterback to start the 2022 season and for the duration, you know, until they are out of it. You know, at the end of the year, if they're, you know,

sitting there at 5 and 9, you know, for the last three games, is it possible? Then you'll see Sam Howell? Yes. And I think Sam Hal will get an opportunity to start games, but it's not because I'm totally convinced Carson Wentz is going to fail. That's not the reason. The reason is twofold. One, Carson Wentz has been injury prone during the course of his career and he's missed games. He didn't last year, but he has in previous years. And number two, the scenario that I just laid out, five and nine at the end of the year with three games to go with no playoff hopes, would certainly, you know, prompt the Sam Howell. Let's give him a shot and see what he's got, conversation. So that's, I'm not convinced that Carson Wentz is going to have a bad year. I didn't

like to trade. It's not being Mr. Negative. I didn't like to trade. It's not being Mr. Negative. I didn't like the value that they gave up for the trade. And I just personally thought that there were, and reasonably so, red flags all over Carson Wentz. Two teams had said, please get him the F out of the building. We don't want to see him here anymore. And so hopefully he can resurrect his career here. Not many have done that in the past. He is talented.

He is an upgrade over what they have. and they are surrounding him. They made good on their promise to surround him with, you know, more weapons, hence the selection of Jahan Dotson. And that leads me to this. I kind of had this epiphany about the selection of Brian Robinson, Jr., the running back from Alabama in the third round, as I was on the air this morning.

And somebody called in and said, I just don't see the running back in the third round. And I mentioned yesterday, you don't draft Peyton Barber in the third round. And I even mentioned on the podcast, I think he's going to play some. But I think really what the epiphany was more so this morning is on Antonio Gibson. And you'll hear me talk about this with Ben coming up in the next segment, or maybe it's the third segment of the show. but they must not be convinced on Antonio Gibson.

You don't draft a running back in the first three rounds unless that running back has a chance to become your primary back. And they think that Robinson Jr. is going to be a big-time contributor. I mean, Ron Rivera said about their first four picks, and again, the theme of this draft is contributors right away. Why? Because they think they're close. they forewent the bigger upsides, the younger players, for seasoned, experienced, older players that can contribute right away, no matter how they can contribute. Whether it's as a rotational defensive tackle in the case of Phil Mathis, whether it's as a special teamer and maybe, you know, a free safety slash nickel corner, maybe the Buffalo Nickel Landing Collins spot with Percy Butler.

hearing more that that's what they think he can be. And they didn't spend their third round pick on Brian Robinson, Jr., thinking that, you know, oh, well, maybe he'll get some third and one or fourth and one carries. No. They must not be convinced on Antonio Gibson. I like Antonio Gibson. I think Antonio Gibson, when they played well last year, Antonio Gibson was a big part of it.

Go back and look at that four-game win streak and the load that Gibbs. I thought Gibson got better with his vision. It was one of those things early on in his first year that I thought he had a problem with. I didn't think he had good vision. You know, back when Kooley was still doing game recaps, he said that, you know, he doesn't have a really good feel for especially the zone runs. But what I did love is I thought he improved on that. And, and I thought he was incredibly powerful. at the point of contact, move the pile. I mean, that was no gain, and he was getting you two to three. You know, minus two, he was getting you back to the line of scrimmage,

and he had the big game-breaking ability. By the way, this review, five stars of the podcast, but the review was titled Cooley, and it came from T-H-T-R. I need Cooley full breakdown on Sam Howe. I am working on that. I'm working on Cooley on the podcast this week evaluating film breakdown style players from the draft. I don't know if he's going to do it or not.

He was away for a while on some wild rafting slash fishing trip during draft week. I have not talked to him since he's gotten back. I think he's back. But it is on the top of my list to get him to watch at least a few of the players, right? Watson Howell for sure, you know, and Phil Mathis, since he was a second rounder, Cole Turner, the tight end. Yeah, I want him to watch those players and evaluate those players. But back to the Gibson thing, I think that's a real, real interesting thing to watch between now in training camp and then when training camp starts. And again, I think there were better backs

personally. I mentioned, you know, I think I would have preferred myself in terms of running backs. The guy from BYU, Tyler Algier, I loved him. I think Zemir White would have been a better selection. I like Robinson Jr. I do. I like him. I mean, he seemed like he was at Bama forever. And, you know, in talking with Mike Loxley for the radio show, he was down there coached Brian Robinson for three of his five years, I guess, or certainly two of his five years down there. He said, you know, B-Rob, as they call him, is a load and a great, you know, teammate and contributor, and he thinks that, you know, he's got a chance to be a really good NFL back. I think they would have taken Davis Price from LSU.

You know, Ben was the first to kind of talk about Davis Price being among the first backs that came in for visits. But, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to try to get Cooley to do some. film breakdown. I wanted to mention one last thing before we get to Ben. It's sort of a big picture thing. This draft is phenomenal. It takes on a life of its own. It has become one of the biggest things in the sport and one of the biggest, well, the biggest non-game sporting event that we have in all of the four major professional sports is the NFL draft. You know, more people watch this non-game than

anything else that gets watched in sports during the calendar. And you come away after this weekend with grades and optimism or pessimism, depending on how your team did. And I just want to give a little big picture perspective here. The draft is very important. Obviously, it's one of the ways teams build their roster. And ultimately, the way you build the roster, coach the roster, and then retain the roster is part and parcel to whether or not you have success as a franchise.

This draft is a big part of it, and I understand why it gets a lot of attention. But in terms of the upcoming season, the truth of the matter is, very few of these players drafted are going to have significant influences on next season, very few. And then, you know, there's a category of players that will be contributors, but most of the players drafted will not be impactful at all next year. And so when you take a step back and you say, okay, Washington had a draft graded anywhere from, you know, I saw an A minus, I saw a D plus, you know, football outsiders didn't like it, but, you know, others did. I gave it yesterday because everybody wants a grade, C plus, B minus kind of. territory only because I think, you know, they have that they had this mindset of building,

of drafting for the present, you know, the immediate versus having a longer term view to it. And I know that football teams can turn around, you know, from one year to the next very quickly, but they usually do that with free agency and trades or, you know, teams that were unhealthy becoming much healthier the following year. but big picture is that Washington is still on paper the third best team in the division. Dallas is better. And Philadelphia, because they traded for A.J. Brown, not because they drafted Jordan Davis and Nukobi Dean and signed Carson Strong to an undrafted free agent contract, but because of the

Draft, because of the A.J. Brown trade, Philadelphia is the clear-cut number two team. if not, if not a co-favorit. Now, a bunch of odd sites have Philly as a closer second place pick to Dallas, but they still have Dallas as a favorite. And then you go through the rest of the NFC. There are a couple of teams that I think have a chance to be really, you know, good this year. I think the NFC North, Green Bay losing Devante Adams, big, big loss. I know they drafted Christian Watson, and I kind of like Watson,

but I think Minnesota has a chance to really close the gap in the NFC North with Green Bay. I think Detroit has played much better football towards the end of last season anyway. And then I think New Orleans has gotten better here in the offseason. And a lot of what goes on in New Orleans is going to have to do with the new coaching staff and with James Winston. But their roster defensively, and it looks like they're going to add, Tiran Matthew, the Honey Badger. I think it's a pretty good front line roster, maybe not depth-wise. So if you go through the NFC, like the big picture still is Dallas, Philly, or Philly

Dallas, if you want to go in that direction. And then I think Washington's third in front of the Giants. NFC North, Green Bay, Minnesota. NFC South is Tampa with probably New Orleans. NFC West, you know, Rams, and then perhaps the 49ers and Cardinals. But big picture is still Washington's the 9th, 11th, 11th best team in the NFC. They're getting Chase Young back. Hopefully he'll be a lot better.

I think he will be. That's going to be one of my, I can just, I have this feeling right now preseason when we get there that the defense is going to be improved and Chase Young is going to be improved. They need the defense to be improved. Like Washington believes they're a playoff team. Two things are crucial to that. Number one, Carson Wentz plays well. That's the most important thing. And then number two, the defense goes from 31st on third down

to something in the, you know, mid to low teens or higher. And as a defense overall, they get back to being what we thought they were going to be before last year. And I think they have a chance to make a big jump because Chase Young, injured, but he wasn't playing well before that. Montez Sweat was injured, wasn't playing well before that. They lost some depth along their defensive front. They drafted Mathis, who was going to be a rotational guy. But that's really the other part here. Okay, they've got enough weapons offensively. It's Wentz and the defense. If the defense takes a big step back to what we thought they could be before last year from being bad and they were bad,

in 2022, and Wentz plays at a higher level than the quarterbacking they've had and maybe a much higher level, then yeah, you know, and we'll know, we're going to have a sense of that after five, six games. They could be a team that threatens eight, nine, ten wins and a wild card spot, or maybe division contention. They certainly feel that way. But big picture after the draft is there are going to be some players like Michael Parsons last year and others that have a significant impact on teams, but the large majority of players selected over the weekend won't have any influence over the upcoming season. And a large group of them won't have much of an influence ever. And then a small percentage are going to have a big influence right away.

And then a larger group will have a big influence. and, you know, a contributing influence in, you know, years beyond next year. So, yeah, you're going to get, you know, you're going to get a hefty list of four or five guys that are obvious rookie of the year candidates and are making significant, significant impacts on their teams and their teams overall records. But the large, large majority won't next year. Again, don't get me wrong. I'm not minimizing the importance of it.

the draft. I'm just saying, I think we get so wrapped up into these three days, and then the follow-up conversation. And it's fun conversation. You know, who won the draft? Who got better? You know, and then all of a sudden, you know, people start to reshape the way they think about teams for next year. I don't think you should do that unless they had a great off-season and free agency or via trades. All right, let's get to Ben Standing next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. It doesn't cost you a thing. Rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify.

That's much appreciated. With us is my good friend Ben Standing, the senior writer and the writer that covers your Washington commanders for the athletic. I would urge you to subscribe to the athletic. It's totally worth it. Follow Ben on Twitter at Ben Standig. Listen to his podcast, Standing Room Only. All right, if somebody hadn't paid attention to anything from this past weekend, and they just came out of a cave and said, how did Washington do in the draft?

How would you describe it? I would describe it as they did okay. I think they were, you know what I would say? You know that story you had? the story you talked about a couple weeks ago written by my colleague Mike Sandell with the Athletic where he talked to executives about free agency and how teams did and he said it was an anonymous quote

that said that these guys led by Rivera-Herney and Mayke you are conservative by nature the team plays that way and they build the roster that way 17-14 they try to win game 17-14 yes right and this draft marries that quote say whatever else you want, but this draft was that quote. They chose competence seemingly over upside.

They chose experience college players over projects. They chose filling in the gaps over possibly having anybody become like an obvious day one starter. And it's not to say that the choices were bad. It's just they didn't lack. They just sort of lacked pizzazz and upside. and that was clearly a choice based on just over and over again the players that they picked, but they did also get two extra picks by the tray down in the first round, and that was something that they wanted to do.

And, you know, you can say it was a necessary thing. Yes, I agree with the way you would describe it. I talked this morning on the radio show and yesterday on the podcast about a team that, you know, definitely feels like they can make some hay. in the division in the NFC this coming year. They had some needs and they went with guys who were seasoned with lots of snaps with lots of experience that are ready to contribute sooner rather than later

than going for a home run pick. And I'm curious as to how you would describe it manifesting itself. Like which players were the most obvious in terms of maybe they could have gone with a higher-rated player that may have at some point down the road ended up, you know, becoming a great player in a boom scenario, to go with someone who maybe, you know, is a little bit safer, has a higher floor, if you want to describe it that way, but was probably overdrafted based on where they were expected to be picked. Yeah, I mean, I think the first round pick is sort of the obvious one in that.

So, you know, we've talked about my mock draft and stuff. When I was doing the mock draft at the end, trying to, you know, finalize the 32. Like I wasn't writing them down picks 1 to 32 in order. I was sort of bouncing around depending on where I thought I had the best read and then filling in the gaps. And I'm not kidding when I tell you that the top of spot for me was the 16 to 20 range, or really 16 to 19 because I kind of thought of the Steelers would take a quarterback, in part because it felt like this was like a 12-player draft in terms of which guys were going to go first and which guys seem to be viewed as the most in a not-inspiring draft overall at the top,

the players that seemed to be the most interesting. So there were like 12 players, and then you had Chris Olavé, Jordan Davis, the defensive tackle from Georgia, and Jermaine Johnson, the past rush from Florida, to me were sort of right there. And then after that, it just felt like from the 16 to, I don't know, pixel number down the line, it was kind of eye of the beholder stuff. You know, and that's where they landed into. So instead of taking Kyle Hamilton the safety from Notre Dame,

instead of taking Olive, who the Saints took at 11, who I'm okay that they didn't do that, but whatever, instead of taking James and William, the receiver from Alabama, who everybody viewed as the number one guy, except he's dealing with an ACL, and, you know, Rivera talked about them making a jump this year, so that doesn't really work. So they traded out of that into, to me, a more murkier setup. And the reason why people are probably not going to give high marks to the Jahan Dotson pick is, for that reason,

that you could have said, sure, I guess you could say he's 16, and other people will say he's a second-round pick, because that's the range of the trade doesn't sell into. And I do think that's important context. they did get the extra picks. And those extra picks are really what this draft is going to be about and sort of have to have a grade this eventually. But that's why right now it's hard to be like overly over the moon over this because it feels like they did maybe trade out of potential upside for depth,

which clearly is what they were focused on. But Johan Dotson was a player mocked more often in the first round than the second round. You know, I don't think he was mocked much at six. But there were some mocks where he was in the high teens, low 20s. They could have gotten him if they had traded back. And Martin Mayhew spoke to the fact that they were offered opportunities to trade back again for a second time in the first round. But don't you feel the way I do, which is, yes, they could have, but there's no guarantee Dotson would have been there. And what is clear is that of the remaining receivers,

Dotson was the guy they wanted, more so than Barks. Sure, but that's sort of my point. They're so set on this one guy who, no, I mean, I understand, I mean, look, I do pay attention to the mock draft, but they don't mean anything. They're just guesses based on what people, how people either bake their own evaluations or read the room or talk to some teams here and there.

I didn't see anywhere consistently Dotson inside the top 22. Maybe at 22 to Green Bay, if you thought the other guys were all gone. I didn't see that. To me, he was constantly in the 28 to early second range, which again, doesn't mean that I'm right, but in talking to other teams, I definitely don't get, I haven't talked to anybody who had him in the range of 16 yet. So, again, I haven't talked to everybody, but that's just where I'm coming from. So my point is, like, so the Ravens are going to get.

high marks, not just because they took Kyle Hamilton, who people like, or Tyro Lyndonbaum, who was viewed as the number one center. It's because they didn't seem to be focused on, we have to get this player or that position. They took their value and moved on. Washington didn't do that. We're saying they stayed at 16 because they were afraid they wouldn't get the hot dots. Well, then you have to ask the question, is that worth it? They obviously think the answer is yes.

Sure, but like, if you could have traded down to get more stuff and the general range of players, that you still could choose from is still in the same range as Dodson, that seems like something you should be considering. But again, they clearly like this guy, and that's fine. But from like a process perspective, you know, it feels like they may have been better off trading back down. Again, I don't know what the offers were

because it's conceivable he could have been there or if nothing else, a player comparable at another position would have been there and you would have gotten, you know, extra stuff. Yeah, I think that's really, it's well described, that, you know, they were so fixated at that point after trading back because Alave and Williams were gone. If that's, you know, who were, I'm not sure who was next on the list after London. I know they liked Dotson. But to your point, you know, if you draft best player on the board, rather than being fixated on one player, there may have been another opportunity to pick up more of those middle round picks, which they had proficient. prior to the draft, how valuable they were in this draft.

You said you're not sure what the offers were for a second tradeback. Do you have any guesses? Not really. I mean, obviously, they're, yeah, not really. I mean, so like, and by the way, to that point, we talk about the extra picks. You know, one reason you needed extra picks this year was because you traded one for Carson Went. They traded one next year as well.

So the extra picks don't have to automatically just be this year. you could have traded back for a 20-23 second or third or whatever. So that would be good, too, because we'll be talking about that next year, right? So, no, so I don't know. We presume we would have been something to trade back into the, you know, 25 to 32 range, right, pick up an extra, you know, whatever, you know, an extra pick or two, depending on how high it was, would be my assumption. And like I said, when you look at what their general needs were,

defensive line, offensive line, linebacker, secondary, receiver. You know, all those things are in relative abundance later on. It's just obviously a matter of how high the ranked dots and versus other players and things like that. Let's stick with the first round, because even though you came on with me on Friday on radio and we talked about some of this,

those that listen to the podcast haven't heard this conversation yet. By the way, let me just let everybody know that, for those of you, that don't know, Ben won the mock draft championship again. He was in a three-way tie with his mock first round. This is the third time he's either won it or shared in it. This is the national mock draft championship with all of the big name mock drafters involved, and Ben Standig has now won it three times. So congratulations on that. Ben had a combination of the most players in the first round and the most players match to the right teams. It's a point system, and Ben ended up with the most points tied with two others. Real quickly, because those that

just listened to the podcast haven't heard your answer on this. But if they had stayed at 11, let's say the New Orleans opportunity wasn't there, and there wasn't another opportunity. Who do you think they would have selected at 11? Well, I mean, based on how they seem to be fixated at receiver, I'm going to guess Chris Olave. I mean, there was some talk about that. I mean, it's showing interest in him previously. And I wasn't necessarily hearing that, but not saying that was wrong, but that was kind of out there to some degree.

And, you know, we know that Ron Rivera went to the Ohio State Pro Day, that there seems to be some merit when he goes to these things that he's interested in players. And not that Olave is the only guy at Ohio State, but that's something. So that, to me, would probably have been the pick. I mean, I told you that leading into the draft, I was kind of sowering on the idea of Kyle Hamilton. Now, I did put Kyle Hamilton as my first-round pick in my final mock, but I specified that the reason I did it was, because with Drake London off the board in my mock draft, I just didn't see another receiver. And that sort of played out.

Like, to me, there was no other receiver that made sense at 11. So I went with my own thought versus what I thought their thought was, but trading down to me was, like choice one, then Hamilton, then if you're desperate to take receiver, then pick whoever you want. So, yeah, so that was, so I would guess OLAV, and that's what made it so interesting. I would love to know. When they made the trade, presumably they didn't know what the Saints were going to do. Did they think they still had a chance to get Olave or James and Williams at 16? you know, that would be really fascinating to know.

Yeah, and you're saying trading back was their first option in the event that London wasn't there. Correct. I mean, Drake London was the player that to me it seemed like it was pretty evident that they were going to go to. And obviously you heard the same and sounds like some others did as well or at least had that sense. So yeah, Drake London, but like before the draft to me and I've mocked at him to Atlanta that it felt like was just too much smoke about him not being on the board by that point. So that's why I was, if you could have seen these smoke coming out of my ears when I was trying to do that, my final Washington mock draft, knowing I wasn't going to have London,

I just kept staring at the board going, I have no idea what to do here. And clearly, I think it's on some level, they didn't either because that's why they traded out. I mean, they knew what they were doing, but they didn't love anybody there enough to say we have to stay. Yeah. sticking with what started this segment of the conversation was my comment that they overdrafted at some spots, at least according to some experts. This is such a subjective thing,

and we can't really know for sure until years down the road. And we don't even know that Dotson wasn't going to be taken before their next pick had they traded, let's just say, to 22 with Green Bay. But Phil Mathis in round two at number two, at number 47 overall, became the second straight player to say, wow, I didn't even think that I was going to be taken in that round. I mean, this was a theme, you know, through the first three or four rounds for them, is drafting guys that weren't expecting to get picked where they got

picked. So do you think they overdrafted Phil Mathis? Yeah, so interesting thought here. So first off, you know, put over-draft you, you know, overdraft let's put some context into this. We obviously talked the other day about the Duran Payne situation. And one of the reasons I wrote the Duran Payne situation when I did, I mean, I'd heard about that for some time, was because if we're coming into the draft and defensive tackle is not being discussed a ton, I think it's important to recognize they might do that.

And here's why they might do that, either because, one, at a basic level, they lost all their depth. And two, Duran Payne might be done after this year, and it's not an actual trade of the draft, obviously that didn't happen. So to me, it was kind of pointing out, hey, don't be shocked if they take defensive tackle in the second round or somewhere higher up if they'd make a trade, which obviously they did. So again, from the sort of a tunnel visiony perspective, you could say that they had that same idea and made the call accordingly.

Now, in terms of being overdrafted, a little mixed bag here. If you look at it sort of anecdotally, like I use my guy, Dane Bruegler, our draft analyst, his board as an example, but others were comparable. That Mathis typically was ranking below guys like Travis Jones from Connecticut, Perry on Winfrey, and maybe one or two others who fell outside the first round. And, you know, whatever. We could debate whether he should be in that range or hire them or not. But all those guys didn't get picked until the third. third round or later. So you could make the case that just didn't sort of have the league views the position.

They didn't view that position as having to take in the second round, other than the Washington pick of Mathis for the most part. But, you know, Dane had him 66 on his board. I talked to a scout for another team today who said this was not a draft. The warranted on a lot of interior defensive linemen that people liked in this draft outside of the first round. therefore, you know, if you felt you needed to jump ahead a little bit early, he understood that. So I think it's a reasonable pick.

You know, the fact that he's an older player, right, he and Ron Payne or roughly the same age, and Durant Payne is entering his fifth year, that's a little odd. And he looks maybe more of a two-down player right now than not, which, okay, I mean, we'll see what that means long-term. So we can debate some of these things, but I think it's okay. it is probably my least favorite of the picks from a value perspective, but I understand why they did it, especially, like I said, if they also agree that there's weren't a lot of defensive tackle prospects on day two,

as anybody like. Yeah, this was another example, and all of their picks, really, with the exception of how. I mean, you know, veteran players, five years, 23, 24 years old, lots of games, lots of snaps, so that they can, you know, get them onto the field early in their career. I think this, you know, goes hand in hand with what 2022 is really about, which is they need to field a competitive team next year, and they need guys that can contribute right away.

You know, the Mathis thing in terms of timing, it was 38 picks later that the next defensive tackle was taken. So now, who knows, maybe a team in the next 38 picks or in the next 10 picks really had their, you know, had their eyes on Mathis. And we're going to take Mathis. But the fact that a defensive tackle wasn't taken for 38 picks later tells you that, you know, he's probably overdrafted in that spot. But Washington didn't have another pick until the end of the third round. And by the way, on the Mathis thing, how do you? respond to people who say the need to reach for Mathis to, you know, have a rotational

defensive tackle next year was their own doing, you know, Matt Ionitis released Tim Settle signing with Buffalo. How do you respond to that? I think it's a reasonable point. Like, I get the Ionitis thing and the more time we go by. Right. You know, look, he's obviously a good player. But I get it from a cap perspective, you know, they did have to reshape some things with after the Carson Went's trade. But Tim Settle, he didn't sign for very much. He obviously was pretty productive on a per snap basis when he was here. He didn't play much last year because the guys in front of him just didn't get hurt.

But like if you had Tim Settle, I wouldn't have been writing stories about, hey, they got a defensive tackle. Right. Potentially high in the draft. So, yeah, I do think that one to me had some sense. And I did I get a little bit of sense that there was, you know, similar to what happened with McKittick, where they went back at, as we know, after the fact that there was like a little offensive of like checking back with Settle like hey, hey, hey, where they're, but you know,

that one they didn't recover. I don't know if they felt that the same way about Settle that they did with Kiss it. I don't think they did. Not to the same degree, but I don't think it was just sort of like, okay, we're good. You see it. I think it was like, well, hold on it, should we reconsider something here?

But then, yeah, it's not as a big of a deal. I'm just saying, yeah, I, you know, when we talk When we talk about, did they panic with the Carson-Wenz trade or things like that? Yeah. You know, panic's a tough word. But it is a question of, well, how did you evaluate the situation? And I do wonder on some level, did they, you know, the agent, as we know, for Ionitis came out aggressively thinking,

hey, I had no idea this was happening, which seems pretty rare. So if they really did sort of make a last second decision on ionitis, did that, would they have changed their mind on settle? But either way, to the point of they had an opening, that the opening, the opening, was because they let two guys go. If they had even one of them, you wouldn't feel that, at least for 20-22 purposes, you needed to drive the guy in the second round, I wouldn't think. So you were the first one to start talking about all these running backs that they were bringing in. And, you know, you made sort of the, you said, look, they're looking for a playmaker, whether that's a wide receiver or it's a running back, they're looking for a playmaker.

And that's what I think you thought. And by extension, I think it's what I thought. as it related to running back. Now, Brian Robinson, Jr. is more of a thumper, you know, rather than a playmaker, and they got their playmaker at 16 with Jahan Dotson. Why do you think they drafted Brian Robinson, Jr.? I think this is a very interesting conversation right now, and I've come around to it, really over like the last 12 hours, almost doing the radio show this morning. I kind of talked myself into believing that Robinson Jr. could end up being a lead back,

What do you think? Why do you think they drafted him there? Yeah, so the running back conversation, I appreciate the nod for that, because, yeah, I started writing about this right around the senior ball, and it was a combination of things. The playmaker aspect, right, like you said, they got one in the first round with Dyson. But the other component to this was the success they had last year during that four-game winning streak was led by their ball-control attack on offense. that with Gibson at his best of the year, spry, effective, it helped keep the defense fresh,

took pressure off Taylor Heineke, and they won. And Rivera kind of referenced this pre-draft as well as to how do they, you know, put themselves in that position again. And part of the issue was that when Gibson would either miss time with injury, which unfortunately you'd have a lot of them in his first two years, or the fumbles became problematic. He led running backs and fumbles, got benched in multiple games, at least for a little bit because of it.

They didn't have anybody else to go to to then do this thing, right? And he's also, I always thought in the moment he was being miscast between the tackle, Bell Cow, running back. He's a guy that he should put the ball in space as much as possible rather than saying, you know, go chain yourself

up the middle. And he also, if you look at some of the analytics, like he leaves his guards on the field. He's still struggling in that regard. Again, he's very productive. He's one of, you know, other than Terry McCorn, he's their most explosive, offensive player, but I think they recognized that they needed something more stable, both in terms of not fumbling.

Brian Robbins, I believe, never fumbled during his five years of Alabama. That's right. He's a between the tackle guy. And like this gives them now both a hedge if something goes with Gibson, but also somebody more suited for that role. It's perhaps a little car before the horse to be focused on what you're doing with the fourth quarter lead to run out the clock kind of when you need to get the lead first. But that aside, I think those are the reasons that they did it in conjunction with the notion

of Playmaker, which we already said they already kind of got one. Yeah, so a couple of thoughts on this. Number one, you know, they did, you know, they valued Peyton Barber, you know, and they didn't want to lose him. But you don't draft Peyton Barber in the third round, people. You don't do that. When you draft a running back, you know, in the first thing. three rounds. That running back, you should believe that that running back is going to be a significant

part of your offensive game plan week in and week out. And as young players, almost all the young players contribute immediately, it's a position where you don't need, you know, developmental time. I'm surprised by this because, first of all, I wonder whether or not they really believe in Antonio Gibson. I do. I thought he got better with his vision. It was one of the early complaints I had. I thought he was leaving a lot of yards out on the field in year one and even early in the season last year. I thought he got better with that.

I think he is a downhill, powerful yards after contact runner. It's the biggest surprise about him when he came out for me anyway. I think he's got tremendous balance. I think he's also versatile in the ability to catch the balls out of the backfield. I mean, you mentioned it during that four-game winning streak. I mean, my God, the number of touches that he had in the games. I forget what his overall, the Seattle game was probably the highest volume game for him, but he was really, really solid.

I mean, even that Tampa Bay game, I remember the final numbers were not significant in terms of like average yards per carry, but I felt like he had really played well and gotten a lot out of a little in that game. And I think that drafting Brian Robinson, Jr. in the third round, the more and more I think about it, Ben, it must mean that they think they, I mean, I understand 17 game season, Gibson injury, fumbles. They pulled him from the Carolina game, you know, and then put him back in the second half and he, you know, exploded. And you need, you know, a third down thumper, although I think he's good enough to do that. You know, the draft, they had Jared Patterson on the roster as well, not that he's, you know, a comp for Gibson. But I think it must mean that they aren't sure about Gibson as the primary first and second down back. Do you agree or disagree? I think they don't, if I had a guess, I would say I don't think they see him as the guy as a traditional running back when they need in the spots where they want one of those. and yeah, I mean, I'm with you.

Like, I don't necessarily know that you needed to draft that guy in the third round, at least with the trade down that gave me the extra picks, and sort of same thing with taking Sam, how, like, okay, it's a little bit easier to sort of justify that when you have those extra picks. But, yeah, I think that's, I think that is a way to look at it. But here's where I'm sort of confused, I guess. Everybody gets caught up in, like, you know, you'll see this all the time on Twitter or else where people will show a team and they'll say,

boy, look at all these skilled players they have. And this is an amazing assortment. And wow, this coach will have a fun time of this. Okay, that's all great. And obviously, injuries happen. But in a realistic sense, you can't give the ball to everybody, right? At some point, you have to give the ball to your best players and the idea of having, you know, all these depth guys. That's great.

But, like, the asset you're being spent for a guy who's only going to touch the ball a handful of times in the game seems to be overstated. and Washington now, let's look at what they have. They've got three running backs. I mean, they kept McKissick. When it looked like McKissick was leaving, by that point I was already into the mindset of that they wanted another running back. I'm like, oh, okay, they're going to move Gibson now more into a pass catcher role, which makes sense, and then get another running back, thus that's the tandem.

Okay, they have three running backs now. And a receiver, you've got Terry McCorn, you've got Curtis Samuel. They just drafted Dodson under first. I'm not going to ignore Diomby Brown. He was a third round pick. That guy needs to play, and Camson still exists for Red Zone South. Plus, Logan Thomas, and, you know, they have some other tight end. So that's a lot of people, which is a good thing.

But from an investment standpoint, they've now put a lot into that, and not all these guys in any given game we're going to get the ball that much. So that, to me, is like almost as what is interesting as, like, how they view Gibson, who I still assume is going to get, you know, 15 or plus touches every week. maybe it will come in a little different variety now, but every week. But how do you get everybody else with enough touches to justify keeping everybody? That, to me, is going to be interesting. Can Percy Butler, their fourth round pick, be the, you know,

landing Collins replacement, or is he a true free safety and maybe a nickel corner at times? Yeah, I definitely need to, you know, do more homework on him, but I thought, I'm probably sure you saw Chris Sims said that he thought he was the best free safety prospect in the draft, which is, you know, well, pure free safety prospect. That's a pretty bold statement for a guy who was,

you know, I think Dave Bluer had him in the fifth, and I did, I had Brendan, your producer on my podcast yesterday, and I think Brandon said he looked around the league and saw, or looked at,

not the league, looked around the mocked here, the big board world, and then Dane might have been, like, on the higher end of Butler's ranking. So, I don't know he's the best free safety, but they could,

clearly like him. I've heard people rave about his special teams, probably his speed and his plays fast kind of kind of vibe. So I think he's really interesting. I mean, he may be the most interesting prospect that they have because of the, you know, potential options.

But that said, well, I mean, it would seem to me you still don't have your starting Buffalo and Nickel on the roster, I would think, you know. You know, so that to me would be be curious what they do here. in part two a free agency.

But yeah, I'm intrigued to see what Ballard can do at there. All right. Ben's going to stick around. When we come back, we'll talk about the drafting of Sam Howell in the fifth round. And Cole Turner, also in the fifth round, some of the undrafted free agents they signed and what they didn't get so far in this offseason.

We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you want to bet on the NBA playoffs and now the NHL playoffs, which start tonight. Go to MyBooky.com or MyBooky.orgie.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. They'll match your first deposit, dollar for dollar, all the way up to $1,000. Ben Standing sticking around with us. All right, let's talk about Sam Howell.

What was your reaction? What is your reaction to the drafting of Sam Hal? Well, it was the one pick that got, I think, those were in the immediate room, excited and I would imagine the same with the fan base because it's you know there's a lot that comes with opposite drafting a quarterback anytime no matter where it is but this one's interesting because on the one hand you can never say oh fifth round pick you know fine just a depth guy whatever we'll see people can get excited if they want you know that people get worked up

over practice squad quarterback so why not a fifth on the other hand this is a guy who was part of the top group discussed this whole all season that you know, at a minimum thought was going to go in the second round. There was talked earlier times in the process. He could go in the first round. I'm guarantee if you go back to look at Twitter within the last two weeks, notable newsbreakers said, don't be surprised if Sam Howe goes in the first round. No doubt. No doubt. That's true.

Yes. Yeah. So, and go back to the start of the college season, you know, he was one of the top two or three guys considered to be the, you know, with a chance to be QB1 in this draft. Okay, so we can get into why that's flip. But the fact that you're getting that guy in the fifth round makes it exciting, I think, that maybe there is a little bit more here. And two, yes, I'm not going to fall into the trap of saying Carson Wentz is looking over his shoulder,

but at the same time, this is going to be a topic. Obviously, it's going to come up fair or not over the course of the year. Every time Carson Wentz throws a ball into dirt, he's people going to be like, get rid of that guy. He stinks. Go bring in this kid who people have heard about. So I think it's a really interesting pick. I believe you should draft a quarterback almost every year purely for depth at the most important position and of the lottery ticket. And I think from a lottery ticket perspective, you can't do much better than getting a guy who, clearly NFL teams didn't view him the same way, but there was at least some talk that he could be picked a lot higher.

And they got him in the fifth round. That's a pretty good deal there in terms of hope. who knows what it'll be, but from a hope perspective, it's pretty good. Yeah, I talked about this yesterday. You can try to push it as, oh, we just took a quarterback on a flyer at the end of the draft, a developmental guy, you know, third string guy, whatever. It's like when, you know, Matt Hooper had to explain to Chief Brody, this was no boating accident, all right? This was a shark.

I mean, this was Sam Howell. Okay, Sam Hal. All the reference. Nice. for two years as one of the upper echelon quarterbacks and is a top five, top three pick at one point. And you're 100% right. I guarantee you if we looked hard and long enough, we could find draft people that said, don't be surprised if Sam Hal sneaks in as QB3 at the end of the first round after Pickett and Willis.

You know, when it was assumed that it would be Pickett and Willis. And so, look, Ron had to call Carson Wentz, and we know that he was sensitive to the Jalen Hertz thing in Philadelphia. But I doubt he was called about Sam Ealinger last year in the sixth round by, you know, by Chris Ballard or by Frank Reich. And so this is, you know, this changes the reaction. And I think justifiably so because I think, well, I know there were people in this organization that not only like, liked him, but have liked him for some time. So, you know, here he is. He's a fifth rounder. Let me just give you some of the data on fifth rounders, because I did this very early this morning. Over the last 11 years, going into 2019, but you could throw in 2020 as well, because in 2020 and 2021, there were very few quarterbacks taken after, actually,

2020, there were several. My fault. But anyway, I did it from 2009 to 2019 because it's hard to really understand what 2020 and 2021 are about at this point. You've got to give it more time. 55 quarterbacks taken, fifth round and later, 55 of them. Here are the two best, and no one else is even close to these two. Tyrod Taylor and Gardner Minshu. Two out of 55 have kind of had a place in the league. I guess you could look at Trevor Simeon. He's been in the league for a while, but Tyrod Taylor and Gardner Minchew. Taylor was taken in the sixth, Minchu in the sixth as well. The odds are stacked heavily against Sam Howell.

However, he's in an organization where quarterbacks, three or four of them, have been played almost every year for the last several years. So, Ben, I'm not talking about end-of-year snaps or injury-related snaps. Do you think Sam Hal has a chance to be the starting quarterback of this franchise going into a season in the next three seasons? Yeah, I think he has a chance. I always like, in general, this is broadly, I always like the player who was talked about highly. There was a reason why a player was talked about highly. And then you get him at a much lower rate because people sour on him for whatever they're.

reason. And I think this is one of those examples. I, you know, again, collectively nobody liked this quarterback class, right? Even Kenny Pickett of going 20 is a true repudiation of this group because the first quarterback off the board is 20. That's an anomaly in it of itself. They didn't like these guys, fine. But there's a reason why Sam Hal was being discussed a lot.

There's a reason why people all went to Carolina's Pro Day. I mean, there's a reason why Sam Hal was a guy to pay attention to at the very very various pre-draft, senior bowls and things like that. He wasn't interesting enough for people to at least look at to then determine what they thought of him, right? So I think there's something here. He's not the biggest guy. That's one of the just basic knocks, but people admire his toughness.

He's got a good arm. He ran for a lot of yards at Carolina. And the reason why people were attributing his decline this last year was he didn't lose just like one or two playmakers. He lost his top four playmakers from the previous year, including Diommy Brown. And, you know, they, Carolina's offensive didn't seem to have enough weapons. I'm sure you watched more of their games than I did, but they just seemed like they didn't have enough to work with. And I was told early on in the pre-draft process that his decision-making, how decision-making went down, you know, went down the drain this year. And maybe

that was a reaction to not having experienced players around him and so much. on. So I think there's something there. That's why I'm saying I think it's a really interesting pick, which is, again, I don't know, nobody, nobody's aggregate, nobody say, I'm not claiming he's going to be the starter, like Kevin just, just that the odds, they're heavily stacked against him. But if we're going to play the game of take a quarterback in day three and hope, like this is the kind of guy I would like to do that with. Yes. That's interesting that, you know, just the thought of a guy that's been talked about in much loftier ways than his draft a result is more interesting.

Well, it should be interesting because of what you said. At some point, people were really enamored. People really thought this guy had a big-time chance. Sean King, the former Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback, who co-hosts a show with Tim Murray out in Vegas, was on with me on radio this morning. I would urge you to go listen to that. Sean might be the biggest Sam Hal fan in America. I mean, he thought he was the best quarterback on the draft board.

And there were others that were really high on him as well. I wanted to ask you really quickly about the moment, and I don't know who asked this question, it may have been you. I don't know. I read the transcript, and then Brendan, my read. radio producer mentioned to me that Ron winked when he gave the answer. But he was asked about if Howl was the player they referenced, or he referenced on Monday, as the quarterback that he really liked. He had mentioned that he really liked a quarterback and that if not for the

situation with Carson Wentz, he could have seen taking this quarterback very high in the draft. And, you know, we speculated as to who that was. I guessed Malik Willis. And then after the Matt Corral stuff from Jeremy Fowler, I said, well, maybe we, was Corral. He didn't really answer the question, but Brendan told me that he winked when he answered the question. So what do you think? Do you think Hal was the guy or not the guy that he was referencing? I don't know. I guess why I would say this, that, okay, so one, I never heard one second of Matt Corral talk in three months, which isn't to say it's not inconceivable. It's just to say his name never came up to me once, so I don't

buy that one. Pickett, I didn't buy because you figured he was gone already. Malik Willow's I just didn't buy because if you're talking about a team that's looking to try to, like, I didn't buy them taking a developmental project and everything you heard about Malik Willis was that. So to me, it was Desmond Ritter

who my sense was at the Senior Boulder that they had some interest in, and Sam How because I just maybe it's slightly personal bias. He was the one for me. I kind of like the most too in terms of a value perspective, not in order, but where he was going to go. And if you go back and look at the various mock draft and things I've written,

when I did mock draft three ways, Sam Howe was the one I kept giving them. So I guess I don't know for sure. I didn't see the link, but I know that it was said that he did that. I would turn my head, I guess, probably tweeting, who knows? So maybe, but here's my thing, right? They took him in the fifth round. Now, he was asked. Yeah.

Our friend Chris Russell asked him, well, did you think of what grade? Did you give him a second round grade? And Rivera basically was like, eh, no, we'll give him a high round grade. Okay, well, then Michael Phillips said, well, did you consider taking him in the fourth round? And he said, no.

Okay, here's to me what this means. You didn't like him that much. It's a quarterback. If the one thing to say a defensive alignment or a linebacker, you have as a higher round grade and took him in the fifth, that's fine. if you like a quarterback, you're taking the freaking quarterback, because this is how this works, right?

So it's the most important position. So that's why I'm not positive that, like, he was like some guy that they were really going to consider earlier. Then why didn't you take him? It's a quarterback. We want to go all this talk, and you're not taking a quarterback you like earlier on. I don't buy that.

So anyway, I clearly, they like them, clearly he was a good value based on pre-draft discussion and all that. But, and there was only so many guys up there, right? There's basically five guys. I'm not counting Bailey Zappy who went ahead of him. So maybe, but I don't take it like they liked him so much that they were debating him in the second around. He basically said they wouldn't have, and they clearly, you know, look at their actions. They didn't take them.

So they like them, sure, but I don't know if I'm buying it. Like, they liked him so much that they were, you know, had such a good grade on the hook that they would have taken them because that obviously didn't. Yeah, let me, let me be clear. I do believe that there are people in the organization that liked Sam Hal. and I think they've liked him for a while. That's number one. Number two, I don't believe Ron Rivera, if the wink was intended to mean,

yeah, he was the guy I was talking about. I don't believe that. For exactly the reasons that Ben just gave you. It's a quarterback. If that was the guy, really, that you thought you could take, you know, or might take in the first round or super early if, you know, you didn't do the Carson Wentz deal,

then you would have taken him in the fourth round instead of Percy Butler or earlier. I do really like, though. I have to say I'm pleased that they took a quarterback that they liked. This is something that we talked about and you know, and you and I debated at 11 and second round, whatever, you know, because I think, you know, the first two rounds are the quarterback when you take a quarterback in the first two rounds. You're taking him because you think he's a future starter. Now, Sam Howe's taken in a fifth round, but again, it's Sam Howell.

It's a little bit different. It's a lot different than most quarterbacks that have been taken in the fifth round or later over the years in terms of where he was at some point. But I love that they drafted a quarterback that they like because there are 28.3 million reasons why Carson Strong is going to start this year and he's going to start a lot of games until, you know, they're at. What did I say? Carson Strong. Carson Strong. I meant Carson Wentz. Yes. They're 28.3. million reasons why Carson Wentz is going to be the starter.

There's no competition going into training camp with Heineke or Hal at all. And remember, Hal really did come out of a pure college system. And I know there's a lot of RPO and a lot of zone read in the NFL understood. But, you know, he perhaps needs some time. But if this season goes or, you know, goes sideways, and you're in the same situation you've been in in a lot of years in this town when you get to December, it wouldn't surprise me if Sam Howell then gets an opportunity. Let me ask you this question before we just quickly touch on the rest of their draft,

and that is if they hadn't taken Howe in the fifth round, did they like strong enough to draft him or not? I don't know, but I mean, he went on drafted, so I mean, the Eagles did give him a pretty huge signing, signing bonus to go to them. So there is at least like tangible interest from another team. So I mean, I'm not, we've talked before.

You know, Rivera told me before the combine, they plan to have three quarterbacks in the roster, including one rookie. That he mentioned something pre-draft about that as well. So all that makes sense. I guess therefore they would have taken a quarterback, but, you know, the issue with Carson Strong is,

he's got major knee problems. And, you know, they did, so interesting, of course, I reported a couple weeks ago that they held a private workout for him in Nevada, and that seemed to be, you know, when I heard that, that was my primary focus, except that the guy he did the workout with is the guy that actually drafted in Cole Turner. And Rivera, that Cole Turner is the one that Rivera raved about, probably the most, really, you know, of all these picks. So, basically, ultimately that was about meeting a quarterback to throw.

to a guy they wanted to look at more than the player. I want to get to him. But let me just mention that my Twitter poll, which is sponsored by my good friends at Window Nation, who have a great deal going right now, buy two, get two free, no down payment, no payments, and no interest for two full years. So if you want Windows, call them at 86690 Nation

or go to WindowNation.com. Mention my name, you'll get a free estimate, and you won't have to pay for these windows for two years, and you'll get the energy safe. over the next two years. But I just wanted to really see the reaction to Sam Howl. And so I put a Twitter poll out yesterday. Who thinks Sam Howell will eventually be the starting quarterback here? 4,100 votes later. 61.2% said yes, he will be. 38.8% said no. but some of the responses are my favorite among them.

Dennis just absolutely eviscerated me for being, you know, typical DC media in starting a quarterback controversy. And that was echoed several times. Oh my God, Dennis, you guys are just too easy. You're just too easy. But with that said, try going one in five, Carson Wentz, with the same number of touchdowns as interceptions and see if people aren't screaming for Sam Howell in this town.

All right, let's talk about the rest of the draft. I watched, when you put that report out that they privately worked out Carson Strong and Turner, I went and watched Carson Strong and Turner more. And I liked Turner a lot. I had no idea that they were going to take Turner. But when they selected him, I ended up watching a lot more.

And he is, along with Dotson, because I really like the player in Jahan Dotson. I really do. I think I would have taken Kyle Hamilton at 11, but that's just me. But I like Dotson, the player a lot. But, man, Turner is another one, Ben, that looks ready to play. 111 catches, 19 touchdowns over the last two years. And with Logan Thomas's injury being, you know, a late. season injury. I think Ron

believes that he's going to make this team in play too, don't you? Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not, Cole Turner is on my 53. We can just pen that in right now. That's a lock. The only question is, you know, where does he

fit versus like John Bates, that type of thing. But yeah, with Logan Thomas' situation, we don't know for sure when is he going to be ready for the start training camp for week one, then what else do you have? I, you know, kind of wondered what they go out and get your, you know, the new Ricky Field Jones. But at a minimum right now, they have a well-rounded tight end in John Bates, who I think showed some good things last year as a blocker and a pass catcher.

And now you have a guy in Turner who, we have a running list, by the way, of all the Ronisms, you know, the interesting and important and all that stuff, because we have a new one to add catch radius. Yeah. That came up multiple times with Dodson as well as Turner. And, yeah, I mean, he was. looks like a guy that should be able to come in and contribute right away. You know, again, I'm not saying he's the next Chris Cooley,

but a guy that should be able to come in and help them. And, you know, again, they clearly went for experienced players. So, yeah, I think he's a really interesting player. And for the athletic, I had to do right after the draft, had to do a thing where I had to answer certain questions. And one of them was basically, like, what was the best value pick? And I said, well, Sam, how is the easy answer. But in terms of the players who will actually play this year,

that Cole Turner seemed like the call, partly because of Rivera is gushing and partly because you see the role and you see the player, and he could easily come in and be a factor, especially Logan Thomas, isn't ready to go. All right. Wrap it up before I ask you one last question about sort of where they stack up in the division. Chris Paul, Christian Holmes, and the undrafted free agents. Yeah, I'm so mad at myself. I had in the final Washington-only mock draft, I originally had Chris Paul in there in like the six or seventh round. I know they went to Tulsa's Pro Day, and he's got the position flexibility. He's played all over the line.

Another guy who's experienced, I switched it because I went with his teammate in the earlier round. Yeah, you did. But, but, yeah, he looks like a good. Tyrus, yeah, yeah, but Chris Paul looks like a guy pretty interesting. It looks like a pretty interesting young man, a lot of a Renaissance man kind of vibe. but it looks to me like a guy that makes a ton of sense. I thought that may have been also like a really good value play

when you look at sort of the other boards out there and his versatility. I like that. Christian Holmes, I mean, I don't know too much other than you look at their cornerback depth right now. You know, it's kind of limited. Like we could almost pencil him in right now into the 53. They probably will sign a vet, I would guess.

But, you know, right now, beyond the top two guys, You've got St. Juice. You got Danny Johnson, and, you know, we don't really count for Acki. That's kind of it. So they needed another guy at that spot, and they drafted one. And, you know, I think that makes sense. The undrafted for agents, you know, I think my only real takeaway is there's, like, three of we don't have a full list, but just based on what I've been told, what I've reported on,

and not what others have. There's, like, three linebackers there, which I think was the most of any one position. And that's important. They didn't draft any linebackers, which is maybe the most odd. aspect from like a need perspective. And, you know, right now, they have basically that to my eyes, one and a half starters,

and other than David Mayo, I don't even know what I think about any of their depth. And it's not like David Mayo's all that. I just mean, at least he looked decent when he played. I think they need more linebackers, but that position is where I think they go in free agency again here, because there are a lot of guys who are still available.

You're Alexander Johnson, Joe Schobert, AK Klein. So I think that's where they get that help and maybe why they decided to skip. in the draft, but they are bringing in some guys from the UDFA pool. All right, so that's what you think is next, that they dip into kind of the later free agent market with veteran players, you know, as we approach training camp. What about, let's just assume for a moment that Percy Butler is not the Landon Collins

replacement, do you think there's any chance that Landing Collins comes back? I'll just, I don't know this, I'm just going to say no chance. I just can't comprehend how a guy who refused to allow anybody to call me a linebacker is going to be able to put his pride in check so much to take a massive pay cut to play for the same team. I just, that just seems like a huge stretch. Now, granted, he's got to have some interest elsewhere, but like, I don't, I imagine some team is going to, I mean, if we all think he played well last year, why wouldn't some other teams? So I can't comprehend that another team won't say to Landon and Collins,

hey, here's the role we have. Are you interested? And he says, yes, versus taking a, you know, 80% pay cut to come back here. I would find that hard to believe. But, you know, it wouldn't stun me if they would like him back. I just can't believe he would be willing to come back. But I don't know that for fact. All right.

Last one, and I appreciate the time as always. Let's just talk about the division. Philadelphia got better over the last few days, not just because of who they drafted, but who they traded for in A.J. Brown. And they have, you know, I like their skill position players. And I've liked the quarterback, I think, more than most people. Dallas lost skill position players in this offseason. Dallas is still the favorite in the division post-draft.

I'm looking at updated odds in several different spots. But the Eagles have clearly moved into, they were already the second pick, but now a much closer pick to win the division. And then you've got Washington and the Giants, you know, with sizable margins between the top two and the bottom two in the division. How do you size up the division right now? We're not completely done with the offseason. There are more moves.

Washington could add, as you said, a veteran linebacker before training camp. But how do you see the NFC East right now? Rank them one to four. Yeah, I mean, if you're right on the jail and a hurt thing, and I'm not the biggest J.L. Hurt's guy, but if you're right on that, I think the Eagles are the team to beat. I think they made big moves.

You know, getting Jordan Davis in the first round, you know, he is one of them, you know, one of the different makery type guys at the top of this draft, a massive human being to put in the middle of their line. They make the trade for A.J. Brown. You know, they've been trying to solve their receiver problem, keep struggling, and it would have been the third year in the row. They spent a first round pick on one.

instead they trade for a guy who is obviously, you know, one of the more talented receivers in the league, his issue has been health. So we'll see how that goes. But you have him with Devante Smith. You know, the Eagles last year were very similar to Washington the year before, benefited from a much easier schedule, and that took them up. They made the playoffs of the wild card. Washington won a bad division. But I was expecting a little bit of a pullback on the Eagles because, again, the record, the schedule would be harder. but they were aggressive and made moves.

So I think the Eagles, to me, would be the team to beat, assuming Jaylon Hertz does show some progress. Dallas did lose some pieces, but they probably had, you know, they were the first place team. They probably had the most upside talents on anybody's roster. They have the best quarterback in the division. So I wouldn't, you know, I might put them like sort of co-first with Philly still. The Giants obviously were at the bottom,

but people really like what they did in the first round, getting a pass rusher and an offensive lineman. And I know Daniel Jones, a lot of people can't stand the guy. Maybe it's because he always plays well against Washington. I've always still kind of believed there's something there, and now he's with an offensive coordinator, well, his new head coach was the offensive coordinator for Josh Allen, who helps that situation.

I'm going to be really curious to see what Brian Daibald can get at a Daniel Jones, because I'm not ready to write him off, even though a lot of people are. so I don't, you know, I think the fact that Washington's draft, as I said at the top, felt conservative doesn't excite me a ton of relative to what happened elsewhere in the division. But I guess my one last broad thing is I asked Ron Rivera at the end of the press, at the end of the day three, did you basically go conservative with your draft in part because you think you already have the pieces to go up? I mean, again, we all know this, but Chase Young missed half the year with an injury and wasn't really great

before. Montes-Wed kind of the same deal. Curtis Samuel was MIA, more or less. They just upgraded at quarterback. They had two of their starting off into Lyman and missed half the year. I know every team has a story like this to a degree, but this is their story, and everybody I just named was more or less like the sort of their better players. And if Chase and Montez and Curtis come in and impact the team positively and went, I get why you would think you can get a 10-win team at least, right? So I understand why they went for filling in the gaps, but now they're relying on those main players, this is on them now. They have to be the ones who have to lead the way, which is what it should be.

But that's why I think it's important to look at Washington in that regard. They already had things that maybe the Eagles to a degree and maybe the Giants didn't. So it feels a little less unsexy compared to them right now. Three-time mock draft champion, Ben Standig. Subscribe to the Athletic. Follow him on Twitter at Ben Standig. Listen to his podcast, Standing Room Only. Thanks for doing this, as always.

Always thank you for your audience, by the way. Your audience is always very considerate, very nice to me in various forums. I definitely appreciate it. So thanks for the time. Well, that's nice of you to say, but you've earned that. But I do appreciate you saying that. I mean, they're almost always positive. But they shouldn't always be positive, where we're not making them think enough.

Thank you, Ben Standing. Thanks to all of you back tomorrow with Tommy.