The Kevin Sheehan Show - Reflection Day w/Tony & Andy

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

Much more on the sale of the Commanders with Kevin reflecting on the past few days and the Snyder era of destruction. He gets help from both Tony Kornheiser and Andy Pollin.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Our stadium, we've dramatically upgraded. We're encouraging everybody to come to see all the changes we've done to the stadium this year. I think it'll be quite impressive. We're going to have some big-time attendance shortly as our staff,

our leadership team, Jason Wright, and Trista and the team have done an amazing job. We're very, very optimistic also on the season. We finally have ourselves a quarterback. But I wanted to say thanks to everyone. I really truly appreciate that. I think that's the last time we heard Dan Snyder speak publicly. It came last August. It was in front of the Maryland Gaming Commission.

They were going for their license for the sports book at FedEx Field. I can't imagine that's doing very well. But Dan, you know, was talking about Carson Wentz. We finally got our quarterback. I wonder whether or not that's the last we will ever hear from Dan Snyder publicly. You know, there would be an audience for a tell-all book from his perspective. I mean, he doesn't need the money, but maybe he wants to tell his story. There's certainly a 30 for 30 out there at some point.

A sit-down long-form interview, I'll volunteer, would certainly be some. that people would be interested in. But for now, and today, I know that people are just glad that he is gone, or certainly on the verge of going. It's pretty much over, people. I mean, he's selling the team to Josh Harris. You know, if something in this non-exclusive agreement or negotiating period, as it's been described, leads to a different conclusion, it's not going to lead to Dan keeping the team. It might lead, I guess it could lead to a different buyer, but I don't think so. I think Josh Harris isn't going to leave this non-exclusive negotiating period or agreement open for very long. And as our guest yesterday at the end of the show, we had even Ivy Williams,

who broke the story for Sportico on. He expects this to be a binding agreement within days, and I would expect that as well. Yesterday was the day we've waited for. And, you know, I know that I've spoken in recent days about the day yesterday when it finally came sooner rather than later, as I described for three weeks. But I did say on Tuesday of this week, Monday of this week, I said I am sensing that it will be much sooner

that we will get the announcement of this. But anyway, it was a bit anticlimactic because I think we've all been worn down from the reporting on this. And the real shock, the real surprise came with the news back in November that Bank of America had been retained by the Snyders. But look, it is still a wow moment. You know, it's one of the significant days in the history of this city, sportswear, wise for sure. You know, local pop culture wise, it's one of the all-time big moments. And, you know, I mentioned this this morning on the radio show. It was not just a big deal here locally. This was a big deal nationally. You know, this was a big story in other NFL cities. This was a big story

on the news circuit. And it was a big, big deal, trust me, with the league. You know, we're popping champagne corks here. Roger Goodell and the other owners and people like Jeff Pash and people in the league office, they are super excited as well. They wanted this outcome, you know, for two primary reasons. Number one, you know, this has been a market that has been a massive underperformer for years now. And it's, and they realized, you know, they finally. realized and got around to realizing that it wasn't a viable market and it didn't have a chance

to succeed business-wise with Dan Snyder still here. Now it has a chance. Secondly, they don't have to go down the path of trying to vote him out. I don't personally think that they were going to ever vote him out. If that had been the only way to get Dan Snyder out, I don't know that it would have ever happened. I know Tommy disagrees with me, and I think many of you may disagree with me. But, you know, it's now not even, it's a moot point. You know, it's, I don't think they would have had the stomach to do it. But now it's a moot point.

Dan is, you know, voluntarily selling and is voluntarily sold. You know, not exactly voluntarily because it's not something that he wanted to do, but it ultimately was the smoothest conclusion for the league. And for everybody else, can you imagine if he didn't sell the team and there was this back and forth with trying to oust him with votes and then if they did the legal tangle that that may have created, that would have been a nightmare. And it would have lasted for a while, I'm sure. The details, as we talked about yesterday on the podcast, the details on things like price, which I believe is $5.85 billion. with some kind of earnout from Snyder to get to six or $6.05 billion, which has been reported. What does earn out mean?

You know, it may have something to do with the casino, the sportsbook at FedEx Field and the performance of that facility. It may have something to do with real estate and what the real estate that's owned that they may get rid of sells for. I don't know. But I've been told too many times by too many people in the know that the price, actually, the hard and fast price, is short of $6 billion, $5.8.5 billion. But with an earnout, maybe the price gets to $6 billion or a tick above $6 billion. But again, yesterday, today are not about, you know, getting bogged down in the minutia of $150 million one way or the other. Did I just say minutia and $150 million in the same sentence?

I think I did. That's idiotic. But my point being, yesterday and today are about we got our team back. We got our team back. You know, the price, the current state of the purchase agreement, the timetable on the closing, insignificant compared to we got our team back. amazingly we got our team back. I mean, if we had looked at each other a year ago and said,

in April of 2023, Dan Snyder is going to sell the team, we would have thought each other was nuts. I don't want to break my arm patting myself on the back. I have said in recent years over and over again, how much fun could they have owning this team? It's got to be miserable. To feel so despised to have a city chanting. You know, sell the team.

I mean, I did contemplate on this podcast. Maybe one day the family will just say, enough is enough, and they'll sell. And then with Howard Gutman and with Neil and Rockville, you know, in recent months in really over the last year and a half, when we talked about, you know, whether or not it was feasible for him to be voted out. We suggested at times maybe he'll sell voluntarily like Jerry Richardson did. But no, I didn't really think it would ever. happened. Not until six months ago anyway. But we're here. We are here. Two guests on the show today. Tony will be on the show with me. That's Tony Kornheiser. I talked him into coming on with me. I mean,

Tony has lived this for the last 24 years. He knew Dan early on. So Tony will jump on with me in the next segment. And then Andy Poland will come on with me. Andy could not do his show today on one of the most significant days in the history of what we do, he had a trip planned. So he is going to call us from either an airport or a rental car agency, I believe, and we'll get Andy to weigh in. Nobody chronicled the day-to-day of the Dan Snyder, reign of terror, more than Andy did. So Tony first, Andy second. Those are the two guests on the show today. Let me. Let me. me remind you if you have time to rate us and review us on Apple or Spotify, we would appreciate that. Also, follow us. That's really important, too. There's a follow button in the upper right

hand corner on Apple. There's a follow button midway down the left hand side on Spotify. If you click that and you follow us, that's very helpful as well. From Dr. 212 via Apple Podcasts, fantastically entertaining the best witty banter coverage of the train wreck that's Washington, D.C. football. Well, maybe it won't be a train wreck anymore. But thank you, Dr. 212 for that nice review. And by the way, our podcast right back in the top 10 on Apple's charts. And clearly, and I've said this before, you guys make that happen.

But big news days are helpful for us as well as yesterday. was and as today is. The show today, presented by MyBooky, go to mybooky.com or mybooky.orgy.orgie. Use my promo code. Kevin D.C. and MyBooky will allow you to cash out after you've wagered your initial deposit amount one time. Most books don't let you do that. MyBooky will. They've got everything you need on the NBA playoffs.

Two more play-in tournament games. I'm 3-0, by the way, on my picks so far in the play-ins. tournament. I gave out underdogs, Minnesota. And on the first night, I gave out Minnesota and Atlanta, and on the second night, I gave out Chicago,

three underdog winners. Two of them outright winners of the game. By the way, four underdogs have covered in the NBA playing tournament so far, because Oklahoma City covered as well against New Orleans. Tonight, we have Miami is a five-point favorite over Chicago and Minnesota as a five-point favorite, excuse me, over Oklahoma City. I don't like either

game. The public's actually more on the underdogs, so I'm going to pass on both of these games. I will be watching a lot of NBA playoff basketball this weekend. MyBooky.ag, mybooky.com. Kevin, D.C. is the promo code. So last night, I was at the D.C. Touchdown Club Awards dinner in Bethesda. And man, the excitement over the news, you could feel it. I was talking to so many people that listened to all of the programming yesterday. The radio shows, the podcast. There were so many people there last night, too. Dexter was there. Dexter got an award. I love Dexter. Doc MC'd the event. He was phenomenal, per usual. Terry McClorn was there. Total Class Act, Terry McClorn. Steve Spurrier, who was on the podcast on Wednesday.

You can go back and listen to that. He was honored last night, the old ball coach, super entertaining. Look, he understood the significance of yesterday. He knew that people were buzzing about the news, and he knows how much people don't blame any of the coaches that came through here, that this has been the reverse car wash, as it's been dubbed, Washington as a football franchise. You come in dirty, you come in clean, you leave dirty. Although Spurrier bounced back pretty quickly at South Carolina. Scott was honored last night

with a career achievement award. He was honored and he did a great job. But really an incredible night. Steve Beck has done such a great job resurrecting the D.C. Touchdown Club and the tradition of it. And he's created a newer and better one, really. So kudos to all of them. It was a terrific night and I talked to so many people last night, many of whom I had not met, many of you, I know, who were there and excited like we all are, that we appear to be here and it appears to be the beginning of a new era. We will wait for the official Josh Harris announcement and the takeover of the team. But yeah, I think we're all looking forward to that. By the way, on the radio show today, I had

John Johnson. He hosts a show on WIP Radio in Philadelphia, and he had a lot to say about Josh Harris, owning the Philadelphia 76ers. Overall, he thinks Josh Harris will be a good owner for the team. One thing about Josh Harris, for sure, is he is analytics data-driven. Darrell Morey, you know, Sam Hinky and, in

Philadelphia. I mean, Daryl Morey, in many ways, the godfather of NBA analytics. So look for that kind of an owner. You know, Dan probably couldn't tell you the difference between any of these, you know, advanced statistical numbers. But I think Josh Harris is a guy that will be very much into that. Now, hopefully he will be the kind of owner that hires a really good football person and gets the hell out of the way. But I think he's going to look for, you know, football people that are heavy on data, heavy on advanced numbers and analytics. And, you know, how that works in football is, you know, a conversation we've had in the past. But, you know, the group in Washington now, they're more advanced than they used to be,

but still they are considered to be sort of the bottom of, you know, progressive football operations. I want to read this email that I got. And I read it on radio this morning, and it really, it touched me. It was from someone who actually wanted to be personal and not be read, but I'm going to read it. I just won't mention her name. Kevin, I've listened to you for years. You and I are so different, but also very similar. I'm a 54-year-old mother of four living in the heart of the city, and as you sometimes say,

I'm a born and raised Washingtonian. My father like yours took me to the home games at RFK on Sundays, which was probably a shorter trip for me than it was for you, and we watched them together in our den on our 19-inch RCA color TV when they played away games. It was our time together. My father raised me. He worked long hours and could be grumpy at times.

But our time together on Sundays with the Redskins was his happy place. He passed away three years ago, so he missed out on today, a day that he hoped he would see. Daddy always said about Snyder, people like him eventually get theirs. He finally got his. The money Snyder made is ridiculous, but he lost. He lost the team. He didn't want to sell. Tommy said this yesterday. He didn't want to sell. He had to sell. He had to sell because, as you've been saying for years, his arrogance saw no end. Like you, the passion we had for the team changed, from making sure that nothing got in the way of game days to finding other things to spend our time doing. In my father's remaining months, we missed parts of games for long walks. We missed games for good movies.

We missed games for good talks. Although more times than not, we got to the TV in time for the fourth quarter, and she had a laughing emoji next to that. Today is a day to celebrate. I wish my father were here with me to toast glasses and give me a hug. Thank you so much for that. because I think a lot of people who spent time, invested time in this team, did so with somebody significant in their lives who aren't here now. My father is still alive, and I'm so happy about that.

And my father was the one that took me to games. The first game I ever went to, I was five years old. And my father spent a lot of time with me, and I was lucky to have a father. that spent so much time with me. So Sundays at games wasn't the only time, but they were special times for sure, and they are incredibly special memories, but I do appreciate that email very much.

Anyway, so finally, you know, it's over. It's not official as of yet, but we are in the verge of reclaiming our team, getting our team back, as I said. 24 years. This city has had someone who has taken away the biggest unifier,

the biggest unifying force that this city's had, more than anything else. The biggest unifier in this city has been the football team, was the football team. You know, I talked about sports teams are owned by individuals

in terms of, you know, the equity, but they are emotionally owned by the people in the cities in which they play, in the communities in which they play. You know, this team for years was the city's biggest unifier, and it came from all corners of this city, you know, the four quadrants of the city to the suburbs that surrounded them. The Redskins brought everybody together for at least three hours a week, and it didn't matter what color you were, it didn't matter what religion you were, it didn't matter

how you were affiliated politically, it didn't matter about how much money you made, what tax bracket you were in, none of that mattered. If you were there and you lived it at RFK and yes, to a certain degree at FedEx Field, construction workers, doctors, mailmen, lawyers, teetotolers, boozers, it didn't matter. You know, it all came together and everybody was there for the same reason. And you slapped five and you hugged each other

after big wins or after big scores and you looked at each other with sad faces after bad losses. You know, it sounds corny, you know, to a certain degree, but that's what it was like. It sounds very parochial, but that's what it was like.

And this isn't that kind of, of a city, but that's what it was like. It became, you know, this smaller, closer knit community. Even those who were, you know, up to no good, crime became much less of an issue during Sundays from one to four, if that's what time the team played. I don't think every city has had something like what this city, you know, had. The skins were special. There were no teams in town that even approached what they were. It was an emotional attachment.

You know, it was, as the email stated, it was a happy place. It was the best of diversions. You know, even when they lost, because you felt it, you know, they made you feel you were upset. on Mondays after a loss. It was awful, but it was awful because we cared. And that's what the Snyder era destroyed. He destroyed, he sucked the caring out of it. You know, it's really the worst of his offenses. I'm not, you know, I'm taking the sexual harassment stuff out of it. Obviously, the treatment of people was the worst of his offenses. But the big people, but the big

picture football part. The worst of it is we went from love to anger to eventually many of us apathy. And not caring is the death knell for, you know, an entertainment franchise, a sports franchise. It's a killer for businesses like, you know, pro sports teams. Anger is at least an emotion. You know, when you're angry, you're emotional. And anger's not that far away actually from being able to love again. But being apathetic, not caring, businesses die. And he pulled that off. I've said this before, but it may be his greatest accomplishment,

the accomplishment of destroying this incredible, passionate fan base, as passionate as any in sports. And he literally sucked the life out of it to the point where, the majority barely cared anymore. You know, it was impossible to pull that off. I've said it many times what he accomplished was impossible, you know, to take a 90,000 seat stadium that was sold out with a waiting list, yeah, with a real waiting list, tops in the NFL,

one out of every three televisions tuned in on Sundays, one of the best local TV markets in the country. he cut it in half. That's impossible to think of 25 years ago, which is why I've said many times in recent years, it should be a case study at Wharton. You know, how not to own a professional franchise, what not to do.

You know, you'd learn a lot if the case study were done correctly. You would learn that to build a successful sports franchise, you have to treat people well. You know, learning from this franchise what not to do. The right thing to do is treat people well. Treat your customers like their customers, not financial targets. Treat people who work for you well. Know that the people who work for you are there to work.

They're not there to be harassed. Know your limitations as an owner. You know, football decisions should be made by football experts. If you didn't play coach or participate in any meaningful way in that sport or in any sport, for that matter, as far as he's concerned, you're not an expert. If you think you are, you're not going to win. And by the way, winning is important. You know, as part of the business school class case study at Wharton, you would probably at some point cover, hey, don't. Don't sue season ticket holders, especially if they are grandmothers.

You'd learn that pettiness is poison. You know, spilling milk in a suite and allowing it to sour for three days before a fellow owner in town arrives to watch your pathetic team play, that'll eventually get out and make you look even smaller than your 5 foot 7 inches. Here's something you would learn. Don't gouge your customers. They're already paying a fortune just to be there. It's one thing to raise prices on tickets.

People have an expectation of that because costs go up. But when you're charging for training camp, that's a different story. When you're selling old peanuts, yeah, this happened. At a stadium that were meant to be distributed to passengers on independent Air, which was an airline that had been out of business for months, that's not a good idea. That happened. They bought all the excess peanuts from the out of business airlines and waited a few months so they didn't taste as good and then sold them to people at the stadium. Don't leave the impression that you're making money off 9-11 commemorative caps. Bad idea.

Here's something you learn. You learn on what not to do. You can be friends with players, but don't empower those players. That's for the coach to decide. By the way, leaving a gallon of vanilla ice cream on the desk of your team's defensive coordinator because you think the defense is too bland and too soft is bad on two fronts. Number one, it's messy. Number two, it's not.

very effective as a form of motivation. Especially when you are a dump and runner, you know, dump the ice cream there and then get the hell out of Dodge rather than facing the person that you're trying to emasculate. Don't split legal hairs and penny pinch on players' contracts, especially when a player is a really good player see LeVar Arrington. Press releases shouldn't need second press releases to explain the first one. Get it together on that front. How many times did we see? Oh yeah, that first press release, here's the one that corrects the first press release. Don't publicly emasculate your head coach, no matter how inept he is.

Jim Zorn had to, as he said, comply with the decision to bring in old Shirm, the bingo caller, to call plays. He went into the locker room of Norv Turner in his first season. Norve lost a game at Dallas and dressed him down in front of the rest of the team, including media members who were there. Here's one that you'd learn from the case study. If anybody wants to talk to you directly about a trade, don't listen. Especially, by the way, if that guy is Andy Reed.

Your two-time Super Bowl winning coach wasn't here for more than two months when you gave him Donovan McNabb. You know, if you're looking for a sucker at the table and you can't find him, the old saying is, you're the sucker. How many times do you think Dan was the sucker? How many times did other teams say, whoa, if we're going to trade them, don't call anybody until you've called Washington? Every team looked to dump. every aging used to be star player on Washington because they knew who the sucker was when they sat down at the table.

Here's one. I wrote a bunch of these down, and I went through a lot of these on the radio show. You may have heard them, but I'm going to go through them again here. If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. Scott McLuhan, and this to me was one of the most despicable moments

of the Dan Snyder. Scott McLuhan wasn't the right hire for this team, not this organization. He needed an organization that was supportive, that was empathetic. And this organization actually was unsupportive in cruel most of the time. The right thing to do, even if you had reason to fire him with cause, and they did, you should have helped him. And instead, you leaked information to the Washington Post that embarrassed him. that summed up the Dan Snyder era as much as anything else.

Instead of saying, you know what, we made a mistake hiring him and bringing him into this dysfunctional environment. Instead of saying that and helping him, you threw him under the bus, you backed it up and you smushed him over and over again. Truly one of the most despicable moments of the Snyder era. and for those that will say, well, you know, that went to, you know, lawyers and eventually the team was backed up by their decision to fire him with cause. I understand that. I do. I know that he was very likely deserving of being fired with cause. But that does not, that does not forgive what they did.

They went public and smeared him with leaks to the. The Washington Post about how he was drunk on the sidelines during games and in and around the facility in Ashburn. The man needed help. Here's one. If you think it's somebody's fault and not yours, consider that it might be. It's not always someone else's fault. And even if it is, you'll look bigger if you take the blame yourself. Nobody can fire you. You. You're You are the owner. Couple more. Drafting a player in part because a player grew up here and played high school football here

is a real dumb drafting strategy. Nobody gives two craps about where the player's from. Nobody on those championship teams for Joe Gibbs was from here. And if they were, they were not a significant contributor. Do you think anybody cares that Rigo was from Kansas or Joe Thaisman was from New Jersey or Art Monk was from New York or Daryl Green was from Texas? My God.

Simpleton City, this place was. Anyway, you know, a couple of quick things before we get to Tony. I know that we've talked in recent days about the possibility of Josh Harris being an owner that was stretched to the limits just to buy the team. Remember, in owning the Philadelphia 76ers, in New Jersey Devils. He could sell stakes in those two franchises,

so he's got a lot of dry powder to build a stadium. You know, the Phoenix Suns were just purchased for $4 billion. He bought the Sixers for $280 million. And by the way, the Sixers have been pretty successful here in recent years. All right. Up next, Tony Cornheiser, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, jumping on. with us now is Tony. Tony's made time for me today. I much appreciate it because you're very busy.

I understand that. I'm not that busy. I just hate talking. I know. I know you hate doing this, but I'm really glad you're just like Scott. He's like, do I have to? And I'm like, just today. And you said you would do this. So I'll just start with this. What's your reaction to the team being sold by Snyder to Josh Harris. Very surprised. I mean, I guess I'm the last holdout. I didn't think it would happen. I really didn't.

I think that Stan Snyder's entire identity is wrapped up and owning the Washington football team that he watched as a kid. I think you sell it. You're just another rich guy. I don't know that that was appealing to him. I did not think this would happen. And beyond that, I didn't think. I didn't think the league would ever vote to get rid of them, ever, because it opens up too many

skeletons for too many owners. So I just thought it would go on this way for a while. I'm sure everybody else said they could see this coming. Wilbon is always saying, I thought I thought, Kevin, I did not. I did not. Even in recent days and weeks, you really thought he was still going to eventually hang on to it? Because I agree with you. I don't think he would have been voted out.

Right. Yeah, no, I thought he would. I thought he would try to attract minority ownership in some way so that he could still run the team and he would get enough money to pay off the debt that they had enlarged for him. That was how they were going to squeeze him. But no, I did not think he would do this even in recent weeks. I did not. So I was wrong.

I know that you weren't, you know, friends with him, but I do know that you knew him and know him. So I would ask you, describe why he failed. so miserably as an owner? See, this is the part that it's hard for me to get to because I knew him when the Milsteins were barred from

buying the team from, I guess, the Cook Estate at that point, and they turned to Snyder, and I knew him then, and I was writing at the post then, and I referred to him as the Danny, you know, in a sort of a mock-up thing of the Donald at that time,

and we quite a great deal, and I certainly thought that his love of the team would translate into being a better owner. I know that he made mistakes in terms of personnel and people that he hired, but they were the mistakes that fans make. Then the mistakes started changing in different ways, and he surrounded himself, I think, with people on an executive level that were not very good, and he became, I guess, sort of tyrannical. But I didn't see that at the beginning. I saw, from my perspective, I saw a kid whose dreams had come true, and I thought he was going to be a good owner. I did.

I know, but he wasn't. So your feeling was that then? What is it today in being there and being one of the people that sort of documented his ownership over the years? Why did he fail? Well, I would say that if I had to pick a turning point, if I had to pick one thing, that I believe changed the course of the team. It was the night he fired Norv Turner, with, I believe, a winning record.

Yeah, 7 and 6. And it was cruelly done. It was cruelly done. I mean, it wasn't even face-to-face. It was, you know, stay in this garage and wait for me. And it was done very, very poorly. And from that point on, you know, I thought, God, this is not going to work out at all.

He began to hire. Some of the coaches he hired were moves that made sense, and somewhere didn't make any sense at all. And, you know, I can't speak to all of those issues of a personal nature, you know, what it was like to work there because I wasn't there. I have no idea what it was like to work there. But I think these are pretty well documented over a long period of time that it was not pleasant, certainly not pleasant for women,

and that it became, you know, sort of like a boys' club. And I hadn't seen that at the beginning at all. And it devolved and it got worse. Look, you grew up here, so your position is different than mine. I came here. I was working. I had worked at Newsday in the New York Times, and I took a job at the Washington Post in 1979. And I come from New York where there are all these teams.

But there's no team in New York that ever approached the importance, the hold on the city on an area that the football team had here. And to see that dissipate in the way that it has in a short amount of time, to read a story in the Washington Post a couple of weeks ago that only 23% of people who identified themselves as sports fans cared most about the football team. That was 98% when I got here. 98%. And now, you know, it's ruined. There's an entire generation my son's age and your son's ages that have nothing with this team. They don't have any relationship with it,

and that is laid at the feet of Dan Snyder. I can't describe how it happened, but I see what happened. I mean, I've described it over the years as almost his greatest accomplishment because it was impossible. You know, 30 years ago, literally, it was 25 years ago,

if I had suggested to you that 25 years from now, literally a third of the people that are passionate about the football team will care anymore. They'll have the lowest attendance in the league. They'll have some of the lowest local television ratings in the league. And that every Sunday the stadium will be filled with basically the opponent's fans. I mean, you would have had me drug checked. Yeah, that's 100%. And everybody has the exact same feeling.

Everybody who has seen this goes, wow, how did he do this? how did it happen? Yeah? Sure. So. You know, he gets the blame. I mean, I'm not trying to soften this in any way. He gets the blame.

I'm just saying I chart it from the night that he fired North Turner. Something happened that he became sort of an owner monster. You know, it just, it happened. Yeah, it's interesting because that's much earlier. Like I've said several times that I think, I think it's a revisionist history for the people who said that when they went out on that free agent spending free in 2000 and signed Dion Sanders and Bruce Smith and Jeff George and Mark Carrier that everybody knew then. I didn't know then. I was excited about it. I didn't know. I didn't know then. Yeah, me too. I'm going back to that date because I think it's, I think that's the date that you mark when something changed and something changed drastically. It didn't, that didn't mean that it would be 100% bad in two hours. No, not at all. But it changed from that point on, and there was a steady progression downhill.

And that's what we have now. So that's why I think people are so optimistic now that, you know, the thing I wonder about, I wonder if there's anybody in the league office that says, do we really want another local guy to own this team after we just had a disaster from a local guy? Well, I was going to ask you what your thoughts on Josh Harris are. I mean, there's a big difference, right? Dan Snyder never owned a sports team, and this guy's owned multiple sports teams. Yeah.

Yeah. No, no. I mean, everything points to the fact that he knows what he's doing. I'm just saying, is there anybody in league office that said, are we rushing into this? Are we sure about this? But you could vet him. You could see the things that he's already done.

Plus, I read today that he went to Penn where my kid went and he wrestled. That was tough. He also went to Harvard Business School. He went to Wharton undergrad and went to H. Harvard Business School. So, you know, you've been here most of your life, really, most of your life professionally. And I think what's really interesting moving forward

is this notion that, you know, I mean, I do feel like, and I felt for a while, you know, once Dan leaves, everything is back in play. We can, you know, like Tommy and I always talk about you have to suspend reality to talk about the football team because the reality is they're never going to win as long as Dan owns a team, but we're going to have these conversations about games and drafts and free agency anyway. So it's kind of been a suspension of reality, you know, disclaimer. But what do you think in terms of is everybody coming back now that Dan's gone?

Or will it be more of a challenge? No, no, I'm telling you, an entire time. generation of people who are now approaching 40 years old. They're done. They don't have any of that feeling anymore. I want to see, I'm curious to see what happens on the field and off the field with the team. Will the new ownership group, and I assume that Mitch Rale's is going to be a major part

of this, will the new ownership group look around and say, we've got to get rid of everybody, everybody that was there with Dan Snyder, everybody, not to, just on the field, off the field, in the booth, in the box, we got to get rid of everybody so we can say to the general public at large, new broom sweeps clean, we're going to build this team back to where it was when you remembered it fondly. I think that the 40 and younger, because two of my three boys couldn't give a shit about the team, and never really have. And I think a lot of young people have felt the way. I mean, They lost a generation or a generation and a half, however a generation is described.

I think what's more interesting, actually, is those like me who have lost a lot of the passion for the team. And in some cases, people have completely checked out. Five years ago, if Josh Harris had acquired the Redskins, I think it would be different. But I think the loss of the name and just the constant beatdown of the last couple of years with all of the investigations, et cetera, I think some people are never coming back, and those people would have come back with Dan being gone five years ago. What do you think about that group and how the loss of the name affects that? The name is a very big deal. The name is indefensible.

That doesn't mean that those of us who became used to the name had any malice towards anybody by using the name. The name is indefensible. Commandments is a terrible name. It should be the Washington football team. The name change could have been affected so much more easily, if he hadn't said you can write it in capital letters. I'll never change the team. But what he was plugging into was what he thought was a great and loyal fan base that he didn't realize by that time had eroded substantially. I think there'll be a general euphoria for a while, and then I think they'll see that the team is going to lose,

and it's going to be a losing team for a while, and it's going to be a gradual, bill. The most important thing that can happen is a new stadium on the RFK site. That's the most important thing. That allows you to be nostalgic in a way that nothing else does. I know you got to go because you have a heart out, as we say in the biz. Hard out of two, baby. All right. Well, then we got three more minutes. I'm just going to, you know, on the name thing, it's, I think one of the things he did over and over again is he just constantly hit himself in the face. He just boomeranged himself over and over again.

And one of the big things was not paying Fred Smith led to Fred Smith in the wake of George Floyd coming out and saying, get rid of the name or Federal Express is out. I wonder whether or not you think if Dan hadn't stopped paying his minority shareholders, which he stopped paying them their dividends. And the relationship was just was less confrontational in the moment. moment, if they'd still have the name, or if the environment was ripe for it to eventually go the way a lot of other things went after the summer of 2020. Yeah, I think the latter. I think the latter. I think the name became something that people just could not justify

anymore, even if in their heart of hearts, they said, this does not indicate that I have any prejudice whatsoever. It's just a name that means something to me. I don't think anybody could stand up and say that. I know I mean, years ago I wrote put a potato on the side of the helmet if you want to keep this so badly. I think the name I really do think it had to go. Probably should have gone before.

Yeah, I do. I mean, you know I feel a little bit differently for a lot of reasons, but we won't get into it now because you do have to go and just take care of that back. I tell you, the command is a terrible name. Yeah, it's awful. It's stink. It's awful. I think they should look into pulling that and going back to Washington FC.

or FC Washington and leaving it at that. Yeah, or Washington football team. I mean, Washington football team was a nice name. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Thank you. Be good. All right, jumping on with me right now is my good friend, Andy Poland.

Andy has been documenting day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, the reign of Dan Snyder's terror over this town and over this organization in so many different ways. And sure enough, Andy Poland, on maybe the most significant sports talk day of our lifetime, certainly your lifetime, isn't on his show on ESPN 630 because you have a long-planned weekend getaway. You better be going somewhere a long way away, and it better be for a significant, significant sort of, event in your life, like some sort of celebration or anniversary or wedding or something? It's kind of like that.

You know, we've all lost people in our lives in recent years, and I got to thinking, if you're not going to do it now, when? So I organized a 45th reunion of my first radio station in Port Arthur, Texas. And I may get there maybe by Sunday if I can get out of this rental car line, but that's that's, it had been planned for months, and I didn't think that, you know, some newsletters would break, but it is what it is. Wait, what are you doing again? You're having some sort of, what is it?

Reunion. It's a reunion. Your first radio station in Port Arthur, Texas? Exactly. How many of those people are alive? Not enough, so we hope to have about seven, but, you know. Couldn't you have told them they would have been the ones that would have understood? I organized it. I can't cancel it.

All right. All right. Well, then I'm the beneficiary. This podcast and the audience of this podcast, many of whom are fans and listeners of yours, are the beneficiary here. So give me your thoughts on what we learned yesterday. Dan Snyder is selling the team. Yeah. I didn't believe it for a long time. As events unfolded, it became more and more clear that it was going to happen. I think more for financial reasons than anything else from everything I've read, your take may be a little bit different. But I think the financial walls were closing in on them. And, you know, now was the time to get out.

But, you know, I was thinking about this, too, about the whole run of this. And it's something that you said to me and others in the station some years ago, that you had run a business and you had interfaced with, like, Harvard MBAs and you said, you know, the people that I work with in the programming side of the radio station are smarter than some of the people I worked with there. And I think there was an assumption when 34-year-old Dan Snyder bought the team that he was smart. And what we saw over the last 24 years is he wasn't smart. He wasn't smart at all. And we were sold this bill of goods that he was this big fan, that he had been a lifetime fan of the team and had always wanted to own the team.

Well, if he had been a lifetime fan, he would have understood how this team built its Super Bowl teams. They built it with a very smart general manager who's in the Hall of Fame and a very smart coach who's in the Hall of Fame. And the owner stayed hands off. And he didn't do any of that. So now that it's over, we can look at him as not smart and too meddling and created, other than financially, a disaster for himself. By the way, I just want to correct you slightly. what I remember saying to you and others, and I always felt that this was a compliment

to the people that I worked with closely on the air. I always said that the smartest people in the building of a radio station are on the air, everybody else, they're pretty much D plus C-minus students. It wasn't necessarily in comparison to the people that I had worked with in another industry, but I've always felt that way. You know I've always felt that way,

with you and Zabe and Gary and Scott and Scott and Doc and Brian and everybody and coach. Yeah, it was always a thoughtful group to have conversations with. So one of the things you tweeted out in that you weren't going to be able to be on the air today, you said, I can probably recite from memory most of the brazen stupidity of the last 24 years. So I've done that already in the first. open to the show, and I probably only hit on a fraction of it, but what are the standouts for you? Well, I mean, right from the jump, he decided that he wanted Vinny Serrato to run his team rather than Charlie Casserly, who, by the way, had built a Super Bowl champion team and had

learned at the feet of Bobby Bether, who built two of them. And that was mistake number one. And then things began to unfold in a way that, you know, one. one thing after another, that even if you didn't have much knowledge of professional sports, you would say, boy, that's really dumb. Like firing Norv Turner at 7 and 6 with a chance to make the playoffs. Like firing Marty Schottenheimer after he totally turned around the team, like waiting around until the Super Bowl was over to see if he could hire Steve Spagnola and then thinking Jim Zorn, who had been told by Seattle, yeah, we're not even going to keep you as a quarterback's coach, you better find another job.

And somehow he lands as an offensive coordinator first and become head coach. One thing Barry's Reluga pointed out that I even forgot about, while Zorn was the coach, Dan Snyder demanded to have Friday lunches with him. So you'd go over the game plan. Most coaches who had any kind of, you know, ability would say, no, I'm not doing that. You can fire me, but I'm not doing that. Things like that. I mean, you know, I mean, we could, I don't know how much time you got,

but the most detailed timeline on. seen recently, the one that was put out by John Kime on ESPN. Did you see that? It's very, very late. I didn't. I didn't. I think I saw it and I did, but it wasn't, was it today? No, no, it's in the last couple of weeks. And I actually, I talked to John and I asked him about, he said it took months because, you know, it's not like me putting something out online. He works for, oh, I got it. Yeah, I just pulled it up. I do remember this from a few weeks ago. Yes. Yeah. Right, right. And so you had to do a lot of facts. checking and everything and, you know, they had to do some editing.

But, but, yeah, I mean, it reads, and someday, you know, I hope to show my granddaughter, yeah, once upon a time, this team was run by a fool. And it's just, you know, remarkable just how many different things. Look, even his best move hiring Joe Gibbs. Yeah, that's number one. Number one. Number one. That's number one.

Okay. But that's tinged with the Snyder smudge of, Gibbs comes in and goes, yeah, I can work with Vinny Serrano. Right. Okay. So, you know, or there's a salary cap now, Joe, that's okay. We'll load up on free agents rather than work through the draft. You know, things like that.

So even the saint that Joe Gibbs, he dumped bird poop over that statue. So I think, you know, if you look at the totality of it, it's just remarkable that over 24 years, he never learned. He came in. he didn't know what he didn't know, and he never learned. In fact, your good friend Scott Abraham put up an interview that Rennie Knot had done with him right after he was named owner. And he's wearing a, you know, a designer suit.

And, you know, in those days, he never was seen out of a suit, even at the 100 degrees of training camp he was wearing a designer suit. And he's standing next to Fred Drasner. And if you watch it through the prism of what's happened over the last 24 years, he comes off as like Dresner's kid and Rennie says to him at one point well what's going to change

and Snyder says oh we're going to win we're going to win and I thought to myself boy 1999 Dan Snyder doesn't even understand that to win you got so much to learn you got so many people to talk to

just because you've got enough money at 34 to buy a professional football team doesn't mean you know squat and so I think if you look the whole picture, you'd say, wow, 34, just a kid coming in. He learned as he went along. No, he didn't. He leaves as a middle-aged man having learned nothing, don't you think?

Yeah, I think that, you know, over the years, and I think you've said it, and I've said it, at nauseam, I think that his hubris, his narcissism, his arrogance, the lack of any ability to read the room or be self-aware, you know, I've always said it this way. And I remember somebody saying this to me many, many years ago that the worst combination in a person or a business is arrogance combined with somebody who's not overly brilliant. And that was Dan. I'm not saying, and I've always made the, you know, I've always emphasized the fact that I'm not suggesting that innately he's not intelligent. But he wasn't smart. He did a lot of dumb things.

Those, you know, being smart and being innately intelligent are two different things. And the combination of being, you know, limited from a, you know, good sense standpoint and being arrogant, well, he never was able to admit that the mistakes may have been caused by him. And it was always somebody else's fault. And that never changed up until recently. I mean, it was only a year ago that Tanya was doing the interview with Adam Schaefter in which she painted Dan and herself as the victims of all. of this. So, you know, it was a, it was just a character flaw that, you know, was never, ever realized, therefore never changed. And that's why, you know, Tommy and I have always said that to have these conversations about the football team like we do about football and games and trades

and draft, you have to suspend the reality that they're never, ever, ever going to win as long as he owns the team, and that was proven to be true. Did you ever think about this, too, if you or I did sports talk in another town, how much differently our daily narratives would be, you know, if we're working in Pittsburgh or, you know, Philadelphia even, or, you know, so even Dallas with Jerry, it still wouldn't be the daily, oh, my God, did you hear what they did? Did you see what happened there?

Did you see what Dan Snyder did? And I think I can't emphasize enough this false narrative about him being a diehard fan because I was told by Charlie Cassidy about 20 years ago. He said, look, I have no doubt that his father was a fan. He said, but think about this. FedExfield was open for two years before he bought the team. He never even bought a pair of club seats. And I was also told this by a gym buddy.

I used to see him every morning. and he at one time had dated Dan Snyder's sister and he had season tickets to RFK Stadium when those were tough tickets to get and he said he would invite Dan to go to games many times and Dan would refuse didn't want to go. What does that tell you about this great fandom?

We've always had this conversation. He wasn't a diehard fan in the way all of us were. He wouldn't, there's no chance he'd be able to, you know, to be able to say that, you know, the last MVP, offensive MVP before Joe Thaisman was, he would not have any clue that it was Larry Brown. But more importantly, Kevin, you and I as fans, 34-year-old Kevin, 34-year-old Andy,

would understand we don't know what we don't know. So I would say, I've never played pro football, I never worked in pro football. I'm going to need to talk to some really smart people who know about pro football so I can learn and help to make decisions that are smart. No, he was just impetuous. He got his boy, Vinny, and he and Vinny went off and signed a bunch of free agents as soon as they were able to do it. How'd that work out? Eight and eight. Not too good.

I think, actually, I may have been a little bit insufferable if it came to clock management and calling timeouts at the right time. I may have inserted myself. So I think, and I've said this a couple of times in recent days, I think that I think that, there's a little bit of revisionist history on when we all became aware that uh-oh, this guy ain't Jack Kent Cook. And personally, I don't think it's the offseason of 2000. My recollection is that Dion Sanders and Bruce Smith and Mark Carrier and Jeff George that I was excited about it. when do you think you knew for the first time that we may be in trouble with Dan as the owner Zorn and it took that long

It did take that long Yes because I was I was not as I've learned that I was foolish But I was not as sold on Marty turning things around as you were You and Zabe during those years You couldn't stand Marty's arrogance Right, right. Well, that's right. And I thought, I thought, okay, Steve Spurrier, maybe it's new and different, and maybe he's going to bring something fresh to the NFL. And I soon realized that was a mistake, but he quickly got back on course with Joe Gibbs. And when Gibbs retired, oh, boy, you know, once, I think one of the first interviews, and you did the second year of Thorne, he refused to do it after year one with being saved. But I think we realized pretty early on. This guy doesn't really understand about being an NFL head coach.

I don't think he had a clue. And the fact that they looked at him and said, yeah, we think he's head coach material. When his previous employer, the Seattle Seahawks said, we're not even going to keep you around as a quarterback's coach. You better go find yourself another job. I just remember when he told Tommy and me on the show, when he used the description of what he has. had to do when he said, I have to comply. It was straight from the legal counsel.

That was smart. Yeah, because he wanted his money. He wanted his money. Yeah, they wanted him, they wanted to embarrass him with the bingo caller with Sherm Lewis, and they were hoping he would quit, and that was it. So, yeah, so I wanted to ask you, because, Because I played on the radio show this morning, an interview or part of an interview that Cooley did with Dan back in 2013. I also played the sound, you know, from the Maryland Gaming Association, which when he talked about the quarterback, and we're going to have a filled stadium, and we finally got the quarterback.

And I think that may have been the last time we heard from him. But in those early days, did you get to know him at all? I know Bram did to a certain degree. What about you? in how many? Yeah, I mean, I, I, we actually did a couple of interviews with him, arranged by Benad Zier, who became, you know, enamored with him and became one of his guys. So, you know, they were arranged and, and it was okay, but I don't think he told us the truth because, and he said during a commercial break that these are hard questions, Andy, I don't think he told

the truth on any of them, including the fact that, uh, he was going to hire pepper Rogers when he fired north. He denied that. But yeah, over the years and then there were actually a couple of Super Bowl parties that he had. And I saw this is really, this is really when I said, this doesn't seem like a guy who's a, you know, an owner of an NFL team. He's standing by himself. Nobody's talking to him. And I walked over to him and just, you know, said hi to him. And I asked him to come on the radio. And of course, he said no. But I mean, it was odd. He was socially awkward, which, you know, a person who's throwing a, of a part, party that cost 50 or $60,000.

You know, you own the room, don't you? I think. But he didn't. Yeah, you know, so many times over the years, like you have been asked, I've been asked, well, what does he like? Do you know him? And no, I don't know him. The only time I ever had any conversation with him and they were super brief were at Super Bowls on Radio Row. Because remember he came by Radio Row a few years in a row.

and I remember having a brief like literally two-minute conversation, and he said, you know, occasionally listened and, you know, but that was it because, you know, we both know having been in that radio station, and I know it even more because I was with Red Zebra, I was the first hire with Rigo and Bram when they launched the station as Red Zebra with Bennett Zier running it with Dan Snyder's investment. never once did he set foot into the station. I mean, he certainly wasn't involved in the radio station like he was his football team, ever.

Right. Well, he was talked into what turned out to be a bad idea, and then he doubled down by buying more stations and lost a bundle on it. He was never really interested in being in the radio business, and, well, it's a long story, but it basically is this. He needed a quart of milk, and instead of going to go, going to the 7-Eleven. He bought a farm with cows.

Yeah. No, that's it. I mean, he thought there was that brief moment. Remember when he bought the internet blog site that covered the team and was critical of the team, he bought that, and then he bought, you know, he started the Red Zebra stations and then, you know, bought back

980 and, you know, there was this idea and we were the flagship station that he could kind of control the media. I'm sure there was a brief fleeting moment. They clearly way over paid for the stations. He lost a bundle on that. And by the way, sabotaged the effort, the station over and over again. I mean, he didn't do it personally, but his people did. So I asked this question on radio today at the very end of the show. Give me the worst football

move that, you know, he ever made that, you know, you can't forgive. Oh, I think it's got to be, and I would first say Zorn, but on second thought, I would say allowing Robert Griffin the third to undermine what could have been a Hall of Fame coach in Mike Shanahan. No doubt. That's what my, I had two of them. Marty, for me, the first red flag was earlier than yours. It was Marty Schottonheimer because I loved that season. I really felt and I saw. still feel and nobody will ever be able to talk, no one will ever be able to talk them, talk me out of it. And that is that Marty had it going in the right direction. They would have won

for several years, divisions, it would have gone to the playoffs, et cetera. And then 2013. I mean, he let go of Mike Shanahan, Kyle Shanahan, Matt LaFleur, Mike McDaniel, Sean McVeigh, I mean, all future head coaches

because he was a star blanker. and wanted to, you know, be best friends with RG3, and he empowered him and it sabotaged the whole thing. I mean, the whole thing. And we both agree that he did have one moment of a stroke of brilliance, and that was being able to talk Joe Gibbs into coming back. But not the same Joe Gibbs that they had the first time around.

And I think that's an important distinction. That had he been able to be the Joe Gibbs of the 80s with a more up-to-date offense, I think they would have had a lot more success. Right. What is your situation? It sounds like you're getting busier as you're getting ready to get onto a plane. Oh, I need my driver's line. I'm actually at the rental car window.

I've been here for almost two hours waiting for a car. You rented a car at the airport recently, or you're a regular driver. I have, but I go right to the, you know, like if it's national, I go right to the Emerald Isle. I don't wait in line for it. Yeah, well, yeah. I rarely travel, so I was in the thrifty car line for an hour, almost two hours. All right, we'll just sit here and I'll keep it recording because we want to hear how Andy handles the rental car counter right now.

No, everything's going fine now that I'm at the window. Okay. What are you renting? What kind of vehicle are you going to rent? I'm renting. You know me for many years. What kind of car do you think I'm renting? Whatever the least expensive vehicle they have is.

Well, I went economy, I think. It's economy, yeah. I think compact is one below, so I didn't go. So you want one above compact. That's good. Well, you know, what do we think of Josh Harris other than the easy default answer, which is it's not Dan, which makes this day glorious. But did you have a preference, Harris or Bezos?

No, I actually like this a lot. and partially because I don't want to say we're friends and racquetball partners, but I do know Mitch Rails a little bit and did work for his company and am impressed. So, you know, I mean, although he's not going to be the majority owner, he obviously is very careful as to who he does business with. And the fact that, you know, he is going to be partners with Josh Harris is very encouraging to me. So I like all that. And then everything else I've heard is that he's pretty much hands off. He lets his people do business. And I think that's the best thing you could be as an owner, find good people and be supportive of them.

Anything else? Because I know you're busy and you've got to run and you're about to have a reunion with your Port Arthur radio crew from 1977. 78. Yeah. 78. Okay, I wasn't that far off. And I probably told you this. I mean, I lived Friday Night Lights for a year.

I did the British City High School football games, you know, all that stuff. I know about your career. Yeah, but here's the thing about our group. We did very well. John McConnell was there. He became president of ABC Radio. Right. Ken Herrera became a very prominent newscaster in Chicago and Los Angeles over the years.

He's now retired. And several other people did very, very, very. well. So I'm very proud to have been part of that group as a young kid. What about the guy that was Joe Fowler's producer that I knew when I was an intern at Channel 5? What was his name again? Oh, Paul Berry. Paul Barry. Not the Paul Barry, but another Paul Barry. Yeah, another Paul Barry. And actually, he was from San Antonio. I hooked up with him in my second job, which was in San Antonio. See, I was actually, I was hired in the early stages

of clear channel communication, believe it or not. I was like one of the first. of their, you know, they had a station in San Antonio and they were starting to branch out and they bought the station in Port Arthur, Texas, and I got a job there when I was 19 years old. So here I am 45 years later coming back to have a little reunion. Well, enjoy your, you know, Nissan Centra or whatever it is that you rented, your VW Jetta. No, I think it's a Chevy. Okay, whatever.

It's a Chevy. Enjoy that and enjoy Port Arthur. Texas, and thanks for doing this. I'll talk to you soon. Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me on and thanks for allowing me to talk about. But, you know, I've been pretty good about getting the big stories over the years. I haven't missed Benny. No, I know. No, you.

This is a bonanza. This is, and I also, you know, also realize this, this is almost exactly 30 years from Joe Gibbs' retirement to this. And if you look at what happened. Right. Yep. If you look at what happened in between, and as I put out in a tweet, it was melancholy when it happened in 1993. You know, hey, it gives, it gave us three Super Bowls, great, you know, happy retirement. And this is, you know, absolute euphoria.

Oh, thank God he's gone. And if Steve, and if Steve Buckhance hadn't been at the sign of the whale at like 3 a.m., he would have never gotten this story. All right. I don't know if it was sign of the whale. I'm forgetting where it was. It might have been the palm. All right. Be good.

Thanks. Have a good trip. All right. Thanks, Kevin. Talk you. See you. All right. That's it for the day.

Thanks to Andy. Thanks to Tony. What a week back on Monday.