The Kevin Sheehan Show - Rise Of The Black QB

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

Kevin loved his conversation with ESPN Senior NFL writer Jason Reid about his recently-released book "Rise of the Black Quarterback; What It Means For America". Jason covered the Redskins as a reporter/columnist for several years and had some great Joe Gibbs/Doug Williams stories including one that most of you haven't heard. From Marlon Briscoe to Lamar Jackson, Jason's book covers the history of black quarterbacks in pro football. He also weighed in with thoughts on Carson Wentz and had a prediction for the Commanders' upcoming season.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. All right, I am technically off for the next few days, but I have recorded some interviews in preparation for being off that I'm going to play for you over the next few days,

including today where Jason Reed, who covered the skins for the Washington Post as a reporter and as a columnist for several years. He's been a senior writer for ESPN over the last few years, and he's written a book titled The Rise of the Black Quarterback, what it means for America. And Jason and I caught up yesterday, in fact, and I think you're really going to enjoy this. There are so many good stories in here, including from the very beginning, Marlon Briscoe, and James Harris, in Jefferson Street, Joe Gillis. And then the first team in the NFL South, Tampa Bay, drafting Doug Williams in the first round. And the guy that made that happen, a story that I had never heard before that you'll hear coming up,

Joe Gibbs was responsible for Tampa Bay drafting Doug Williams. And then so many good Jason reads stories about various quarterbacks, including several more from Joe Gibbs and from Doug Williams. But I really enjoyed this interview. It really hits home for me because the 70s were, you know, I was a child of the 70s and I was an NFL fan in the 70s. And the NFL was coming into its own. It was replacing baseball and boxing and horse racing as the most popular sport in America. It was becoming the television sport.

And I remember names like Joe Gillum and James Harris. and Marlon Briscoe, who I talked about on this podcast when he died a few months ago, either on the podcast or on the radio show, I can't remember specifically. But I remember what a big deal it was when black quarterbacks were getting opportunities in the 70s. And so this is an interesting subject. Jason was really good. So I think you'll enjoy this. So we will get to this discussion with Jason about his new book.

By the way, at the very end, he will have a Washington Commander's 2022 prediction as well. So we will get to it right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's welcome on to the show. Jason Reed, most of you who are listening will remember when Jason covered the Washington Redskins for the Washington Post for several years. Jason's been a senior NFL writer for ESPN now for a while. follow him on Twitter at J. Reed ESPN. And we haven't talked in a long time. I mean, we briefly worked together at the radio station and even had some fun shows together as well.

But I haven't talked to you in a while. And the reason I reached out to you is Jason's got a book out. It's called The Rise of the Black Quarterback and what it means for America. And it's out there anywhere you can get a book, you can buy it. the rise of the black quarterback, what it means for America, written by Jason Reed. And when I saw that you had written this book, I had recently, I forget whether or not it was on the podcast or radio show, I had mentioned the passing of Marlon Briscoe. Marlon Briscoe, and you'll talk about Marlon Briscoe as well, was a quarterback when he first came out in Denver and then got moved to wide receiver.

in my very first early days of remembering football, Jason, was Redskins Dolphins in Super Bowl 7 in 1972. And Marlon Briscoe was a wide receiver for that undefeated Dolphins team and was one of their best receivers along with Paul Warfield for a couple of years there in the mid-70s. And so I'd spent a little bit of time talking about his passing and his significance on the NFL and, you know, on the AFL, which is where he started in 68.

And I'm glad to catch up with you anyway, and we can talk some football. But tell me why you wrote the book. And then I do want you to kind of tell everybody the story of Marlon Briscoe, but first give everybody a quick overview of the book. Well, you know, the book, as you say to Kevin, is about the rise of the black quarterback in the NFL. And, you know, Kev, the reason I wrote the book, I was having dinner with Doug Williams and a,

another friend. This is three years ago now. And it was before the 2019 season. And Doug had said to me that, you know, we were having dinner and we were talking. And I don't, I don't think I have to explain who Doug Williams is, right? I don't think everybody knows. No, no, you don't. Okay. Okay. So we were having dinner. And, you know, Doug had made an observation about where we were in the NFL at that point with young superstar black quarterbacks. And I hadn't thought about it too much, or hadn't thought about it at all, really, before that point. But this is going into the 2019 season, and Patrick Mahomes the previous year had won the League MVP Award. Lamar Jackson was going into his second season.

Dak Prescott was in Dallas. You know, Russell Wilson, obviously up in Seattle at the time. And Kyler Murray had been drafted, number one overall. And Deshawn Watson was also in Houston at that point. And Doug had said to me that, you know, these guys are going to have incredible years, and I hadn't really thought too much about the fact that, well, yeah, you know, this is kind of a unique thing, because in the history of the NFL, black quarterbacks were not even commonplace in the league until the early 1990s, mid-1990s.

And when he said it to me, I started thinking about it. And so that year, I pitched to my bosses at ESPN. I'd like to do a season-long series saying that this is actually the year of the black quarterback, unlike any year in NFL history. It also coincided with the fact that the NFL was celebrating its 100th season that season. So I just thought the juxtaposition of those things, you know, this historically marginalized group in the NFL, black men was fired to play quarterback in the league,

and they could be having their greatest year ever in the 100th season of the NFL, As it worked out, Mahomes won the Super Bowl MVP in the Super Bowl. Lamar Jackson joined Tom Brady as the only quarterbacks in AP NFL MVP history to be unanimous winners of the award. If, if, if Lamar Jackson had not been a unanimous winner, Russell Wilson was going to finish second. Then you had a situation where Dak Prescott had a great year in Dallas. DeShon Watson had a great year in Houston. and Kyle Murray was the AP offensive rookie of the year. So back to that dinner that I was having with Doug, he was right.

And I was glad that I pitched this to my bosses, and they were very happy about that, obviously. After the season, I was coming back from the Super Bowl, and a couple of literary agents reached out to me saying, hey, we've been reading this thing, and we think there's a book here. And as it turned out, there was a book there. Yeah, you know, it's funny as you were talking, and I'm thinking about it.

I mean, I, you know, I'm a massive football fan and have been, you know, born and raised Washingtonian growing up in this town. And Doug Williams in 1987 was the preferred quarterback over Jay Schrader by Miles, by fans, by media members, by everybody. And that was in 1987, 1988. And I think, you know, I would ask you, do you think we've gotten to a point where we don't as football fans even think about it anymore because I just did a quick back of the envelope. I think 12 to 13 of the starting quarterbacks in the NFL are black and five of the top 10

contracts, highest paid quarterbacks are black and that'll change. It'll be six out of 10 when Lamar Jackson eventually gets paid when and if that happens. Do you think we, you know, it's changed to the point where it's not even thought of anymore by football fans? I think very much so that football fans don't think about it anymore, at least most football fans. But, you know, the people who do still think about it, the quarterbacks, because Patrick Mahomes just addressed this the other day. you know, the athletic does their annual, yeah, the athletics does their annual rankings of quarterbacks,

and Patrick Holmes for the second to Aaron Rogers, but he would have been tied with Aaron Rogers if an anonymous defensive coordinator poll for the, for the survey, had not listed Patrick Mahomes as a tier two quarterback. Right. And in the anonymous quote that the defense coordinator gave, he said that, you know,

the guy, if you take away his first read, he plays streetball, when they lose. Now, the quote really blew up on the internet because people like, wait a minute, I mean, he has Patrick Mahomes is not a tier one quarterback. And Mahomes was last week. And what he said is, is that, you know, historically clearly black quarterbacks, I'm paraphrases, and verbatim, but that black quarterbacks have had to, you know, really fight to prove that they belong to play and that sometimes the way they're evaluated, you know, you hear things that you don't hear about other quarterbacks. And you know, you talk about Patrick Mahomes. It's like

the guy at 24 years old was the youngest quarter, became the youngest quarterback in NFL history to have a league MVP award, a Super Bowl MVP award, and a Super Bowl trophy. In the history of the Super Bowl era, Ken Stabler, the Hall of Fame quarterback from the Oakland Raiders, has the best record in 50 starts at 49 and 1. You know, second Patrick Mahomes at 40 and 10. and the guy has played in two Super Bowls and four AFC title games in four full seasons as a starter, or in four seasons as a starter, I should say. So when Mahomes was addressing the media and talking about this, he clearly had an issue because his feeling was, and I'm putting some words in his mouth,

but I think I can say this, his feeling was, wait a minute, how am I getting evaluated like this? And a guy like Brett Farve, who Patrick Mahomes most plays like, If you had to pick out one guy, you'd say this guy plays like Farrb. Like, Farrv wouldn't get that type of criticism. He'd be called a gunslinger. He'd be called a guy who's, you know, who improvises really well. So I do think most fans don't think about it anymore,

but having researched and reported this book and spent time with talking to Patrick and spent time talking with Kyler and Doug Williams and Warren Moon and these people, they definitely do still think about it. Do you have any idea who that anonymous defensive coordinator who voted him as a tier two quarterback and made that comment is? No, Kev, I don't. I mean, I think it, for me, if you're going to list Patrick Mahomes as a tier two quarterback, then there's no reason to have that story even written, or at least there's no reason to ever talk to this guy again. Because by any metric, okay, I mean, I just rattle off and stuff off the top of my head.

But by any metric, Patrick Mahomes is either the first or second or third best quarterback in the NFL. And for two years there, his first season to the starter and then the next year when they won the Super Bowl, he was unquestionably the number one player in the NFL. I mean, you could talk, I talked to many defensive quarter of players, many player personnel people, and not just me, any reporter. He was the consensus number one player in NFL, and now maybe he's one or two. So, like, to say he's a tier two quarterback, and that he plays a, streetball, which, you know, a lot of, you know, I talked to several coaches after that thing ran,

and several of them, several of them, both black and white, said, yeah, I mean, you're saying Mahomes play streetball, well, would you say that about Fav? And because Favre again, that's the best comp for Mahomes in terms of a guy who's so, you know, improvises so well and does the off-schedule stuff. And real quick, and I don't want to, you know, just drag this whole thing here, but I remember Mike Shanahan and Joe Gibbs, two guys who have been great to me, and I learned a ton from, and I still talk to. I talked to both of them for the book. One of the things they both told me is that quarterbacks get paid on two things in this league.

What you do on third down and what you do off schedule. The reality of it is every defense tries to take away every first read of every quarterback. But what do you do in that play when that first, second, and third read is covered, what do you do off schedule? So the whole thing didn't make sense. But back to the original question, yeah, black men who play that position, even superstars, still definitely think about it. You've said so much there.

So for everybody that is wondering about this tier one thing, that was the thing I talked about last week on the podcast. Mike Sando from the Athletic does this thing every year where he ranks quarterbacks in tiers, Tier 1 through Tier 5, and then ranks the quarterbacks in order. And he uses 50 executives, coaches, scouts, you know, coordinators, et cetera, as the polling audience for that.

And the reason that Mahomes finished second instead of tied for first was because one person said that he was a tier two quarterback, which of course is absurd. It's not absurd, in my opinion, that he finished second to Aaron Rogers, but he's definitely one of the top three quarterback. in the game and the fact that somebody would say that about him and put him in tier two. I think the other quote that got a lot of play from that, and I want to get to the book in the history of the black quarterback because that's interesting to me as well.

But the quote from an anonymous, I think, coach that said, you know, Lamar Jackson could win 12 MVP's and he wouldn't be Tier 1 for me. Well, that's the dumbest thing I think I've ever read. If he won 12 MVP's by definition, he's a tier one. So that was kind of interesting from that as well. I would say one thing, just a bit of pushback on the Brett Favv. I think Brett Favreve was described as a street ball player during his time. I bet you, I mean, I can remember feeling that way and even talking that way about

Brett Fav. I'm not saying that I could pull up right now articles that described him that way. But I think fans did feel that Brett Fav was a bit of a. of a streetballish kind of player. Now, Gunslinger is another description. Yes. And maybe that's a better description than streetball player. But, you know, the comp is right, except Mahomes is a lot better than Fav, in my opinion.

Just as an aside. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. I always remember, you know, I wasn't covering the NFL when, well, I might have been at the end. I can't remember. But I always remember the thing you'd hear about Favre is, and the thing I would always read about it is Gunslinger, that he's a guy who, when everything is going wrong, you know, he's going to take a chance,

and he's going to do this and do that. I never remember anyone saying he played streetball. Now, maybe that quote exists, but I think it's a, if there's a different connotation attached to it, if you're talking about Fav and that quote is, and Mahom. Now, here's the thing. Fav was one of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history.

And, you know, you talk about, like, what guys accomplished. Farr've accomplished a ton. And, you know, Mahomes is not, I mean, actually, Mahomes and Farr both have one Super Bowl. But I get what you're saying. But I think the connotation is different, and I think it was always gunsling. And the guy said, gunslinger, that's fine.

And also, real quick, you know, none of these guys are, above criticism. There are no sacred cows. Nobody's red shirting. The scoreboard dictates what we think about these guys. And fair criticism is fair. But the thing about Lamar, winning 12 MVPs, well, if you win 12 MVPs, then what are you saying if you're saying the guy is not going to be a tier one quarterback? I mean, it just, the whole thing was just nonsensical to me. Yeah, that was ridiculous. And I look, there are varying opinions on Lamar Jackson, and there have been since he's come out. And I think it's one of the more, you know, we're getting sidetracked here because I really do want to get to the book in the history of the black quarterback.

But this is all sort of part and parcel to this. And I think it's one of the more interesting contract negotiations for a star player that we've ever watched from afar what's going on in Baltimore now. Not just because he's not represented, but because of the challenge of the way they play football, the way he's successful. and the risk associated with that. And so, I mean, he's going to get paid, I think. For his sake, I hope it's before this season or sometime early in this season, rather than getting into a position where potentially there are more injuries in his fifth year and his fifth year option year.

And then, you know, now he's facing franchise tags, you know, for the next couple of years. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on him specifically? Yeah, how much time do we have? Yeah, go ahead. It's a podcast. Okay, so, yeah, everything you just said there, you know, people forget the Ravens in his, before his second season, his first full season of the starter, completely scrapped their offense, all the stuff that they used to wrong with Joe Flackle, they completely scrapped it, and rebuilt the thing around his skills. So you have a situation now where, okay, clearly he has been successful by any metric.

I mean, you can't argue that he's a super pocket passer, although I could put up metrics that say he's improved, but I would never argue that he's an accomplished pocket passer yet. That's an area of continued growth for him clearly. But the success that he's had with the way they play football, it is a difficult thing if you're the Ravens, I do believe this, okay, what we do here is very successful with him, and he has to be paid more than the people who haven't accomplished what he's done, but what do we do because of the way

we play has allowed him to do this? Like, I don't think he would be as successful in running what the Chiefs run. Like, I don't. I mean, I think that what Baltimore did, what John Harbar did, was very bright, and it has worked. And you have to look at the comps. The guy has a league MVP award, a unanimous one. He's been to the Pro Bowl. So I do think it's a difficult situation for Baltimore, which is in part why this thing hasn't gotten done yet. And what you said about, you know, getting it done before the season and then, hey, look, I don't think this thing is a guarantee that it's going to work out. Now, maybe it will. But, But because of those factors that you just cited and the things that I definitely agree with,

I think this is a harder thing to do than people even now think with the way it has dragged on to this point. Yeah, here's the thing. And by the way, let's make clear that this part of the conversation, even though Lamar Jackson is a black quarterback and you've written this book, this isn't about him being a black quarterback. This is him about him being a totally unique quarterback. the way he plays and the risk associated with it and the fact that they have not gotten

anything done in the postseason. He's one and three as a postseason quarterback, but they are 37 and 12 playing football this way with him as a starter. And the only reason they weren't in the postseason last year is because he got hurt and he missed a bunch of games. I've said this before. I don't think that you have to throw and complete from the pocket on third nine enough times to go to a Super Bowl and win it because I think he could be the ultimate front running quarterback. They're 37 and 12. They've blown people out. There is the scenario in which they keep getting to the playoffs in one of these years, they don't trail in a game. You know, they can't be stopped with him in their running game. Look at all the running

backs they lost last year and then they lost him, you know, and they've always been a solid organization with solid players and a solid defense. There is the scenario in which, you know, they win, they have two home games. They win the first one 27 to 10, never trail. When the, when the AFC title game 31 to 7 never trail, because the other team can't stop them and they win the Super Bowl that way. We've seen teams go through the postseason without being tested and without the quarterback needing to go seven of 10 on third and seven or longer. So I wouldn't discount the whole postseason, lack of postseason success and say it can't happen with him. I think the bigger issue with him with Baltimore personally is if you invest all the money that you would invest in a tier one quarterback, a former MVP,

what are the chances that he plays at this level versus declines because of the physical beating that he takes over the next four to five years? I think that's really part of the calculation. for them. Yeah, I mean, clearly, you know, if you're a quarterback who has to use your athleticism more in your game than just staying in the pocket and playing that way, that's a fact. And one thing about him is there are some quarterbacks in the past who have run who take a massive beating. He's very good at avoiding big hits.

Now, I'm not saying it's a hit, obviously does, but he's very good at avoiding those hits where you say, my God, why doesn't this guy get down? What does he get out of bounds? So he's good at that. And I get your scenario that you're talking about about how they could get to the Super Bowl. The thing is, I'm reminded about something Doug Williams once told me about the playoffs.

He said, in this league, no matter what you can do during the regular season, no matter what you run, come December and January, you're going to have to drop back in that pocket, read it, and complete it, because that's the way you get to the Super Bowl. So, you know, we'll see. Yeah. Yes, you know, by the way, the thing that you said, it's true. He has the athletic vision that Russell Wilson has that RG3 didn't have.

You know, RG3 was more of a straight line track guy and didn't see it, and that's why he took so many of those awkward hits. And Russell Wilson and Lamar Jackson have kind of the baseball, the basketball vision to go with that. So I want to get to the book here. I was going to talk about Kyler Murray and what happened with him last week, and maybe we can circle back to it since we were in the present. But so can we start with like, I haven't read the book.

I'm going to get the book and I'm going to read it because I know this is something that would interest me. And I remember, you know, I'm a child of the 70s. So I remember, you know, Jefferson Street, Joe Gillum. I remember James Harris with the Rams and, you know, being in NFC championship games. I remember these guys, and what a big deal it was, you know, that they were playing quarterback. So tell me about those early days and the challenges that these guys had. Well, you know, for me, researching the book and, you know, reporting, and I took two years to do this. I thought I had a pretty good understanding of it.

I've been a huge NFL fan, you know, as far back as I can remember, and I'm a huge fan of history. I like reading history biographies. I like reading about history. So I thought I had a pretty good understanding of it, and I really did. didn't. Once I sat down with Marlon Briscoe and Doug and Warren Moon and James Shack Harris, the depth of the racism that they encountered in the league, I just did not, I wasn't prepared for that. I knew they faced racism, obviously, but the specific anecdotes about, you know, the things that Doug faced in Tampa, the hate mail, coaches who clearly did not want him

there. Marlon Briscoe, he sets a Broncos rookie record for touchdown passes, and they just take the job away from because they didn't want a black guy playing quarterback. Those things, the way that player personnel executives would talk to them and just out in the open, like, hey, you know, we don't think you can do this. You know, you're just not very bright, you know, generally speaking, black people just aren't very bright. I wasn't prepared for the specific anecdotes. And you know, you open talking about Marlon Brisco, who recently passed. And I went out to L.A. where Marlon was living, retired. And we talked over lunch one day for hours. And, you know, I had read about his story before I went to speak with him for the book, because, you know,

that's what you do when you're reporting a story. You know, you read up on individuals as much as you can to see what's already out there. And, you know, Marlon Briscoe was a, you know, a a star quarterback at the University of Nebraska, Omaha Small School. If he's playing today, you think he's a smaller Kyler Murray. He was like 5-9, 5-10, about 175 pounds soaking wet. But he was a great quarterback at that school, and he had been a quarterback in high school. And, you know, his nickname was the magician,

moral and magician because he played like guys now play like Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray. Well, back in 1968 when he was a senior, black guys, black men weren't being drafted to play quarterback in the NFL or the NFL. And if you were playing that position and you're black, you got moved if you were good enough to play in NFL. You got moved to cornerback. You got moved to wide receivers sometimes running back. And the Broncos draft Marlon Briscoe in the 14th round of the old AFL draft, and they told him moving him to cornerback. But he says, no, I'm not. going to sign unless you give me a tryout a quarterback.

Well, you know, they thought he could be a decent quarterback and they wanted him, so they give him his tryout. But the thing was rigged. There was no way he was going to get the job. But, you know, by all accounts from people I spoke with, he actually did perform well. Anyway, you get to the season, the starter gets hurt. Backups are ineffective. The Broncos are having a horrible season.

So they throw him out there just because of that, whatever. Well, lo and behold, the guy actually plays really well. Like I said, he sets his record with touchdown passes. finishes high in the AFL working of the year voting. And he's moving forward thinks he's going to be the quarterback. Goes back to Omaha to work on completing his degree, gets a call. Hey, they're having quarterback meetings here.

He's like, well, no, they're not. I mean, I'm the quarterback. They can't be having quarterback meetings. And they're like, no, they're having quarterback meetings. Comes back, finds out that they just tell them, no reason is given, but no, we're not going to let you play quarterback. He winds up, you know, I'll condense the story, winds up going up to Canada for a minute, doesn't like that,

reinvent himself as a wide receiver, has a great year with the Buffalo Bills, you know, one of the top receivers in the league, gets traded to Miami. You mentioned the Super Bowl, he was on the undefeated team with the Dolphins on the Shula, wins a couple of rings, retires, makes a lot of money in the financial industry,

but then gets hooked on drugs. And, you know, he would never say to me that, hey, the drugs were because they took the quarterback position away from me. He said, you know, he can't blame it on that. But there was a hole in his life because he proved he could do it. And just because he was black, it was taken away from him. And I said, well, you know, how did you get over this? And I'll never forget what he said to me.

He said, you're assuming I have. So, you know, and this was how many decades later. So, you know, when you ask you about the things these guys face, briscoe is the first thing that jumps out in my mind. mind because the only reason, and I know people today listening to this might be, well, know it must have been something else, but it really wasn't. I mean, the only reason they took the job from is they did not want in 1968 to have this black guy moving forward playing quarterback. It was one thing having a horrible season. Nobody was any good. The starter was hurt.

But just the concept of in 1968 of actually beginning a season with a black guy at quarterback, Yeah, so that's one of the things that really sticks out to me. Yeah, I remember looking this up when he passed and I talked about him on the show. When they took the job away from him, it's not like John Elway was waiting in the wings. They didn't have any really good quarterbacks, you know, that followed. So, you know, that was the NFL, Jason. The NFL had not yet had a black quarterback. The AFL was a much more progressive thinking league.

But yet, you know, in Denver, tell me, like, what was Denver like? What was the reaction from fans? You know, clearly he faced a lot of racism. Are there any stories about other than just having the job taken away from him? What did he face as he was quarterbacking as the first black quarterback in professional football during 1968? Well, you know, surprisingly, Kevin, he said that the reaction, at least the reaction to his face in public, what he heard in the crowd, he told me that the fans were really, you know, to the best of his recollection, and this was, you know, many, many years before, but to the best of his recollection, everybody was really good with him.

You know, the feeling on the coaching staff was that, well, okay, it's a desperation situation, but like white players aren't going to want to follow him. And in the first drive that he gets put in there, like he leaves him down the field, and in that game, like they are following him. So the stuff he told me was that the coaching staff, it was like he never felt that they wanted him, that he could feel hostility from them.

But the fans, he said, you know, when he was out in public, like just, you know, shopping or, around town going to dinner or something. Like, people were very kind to him, and he didn't get the feeling. Now, he doesn't know what people were saying behind his back, obviously, potentially. But at least to his face, he felt embrace would be too strong of a word, but he felt like, okay, they're giving me a shot, that they're going to judge me on how I play. So that was also surprising me.

I would think that, you know, I told him this, I said, well, I'm surprised with that because I would think that the racism took the job from you because he told me that one of the things he found out later was that people in the front office were concerned about ticket sales if they had left him in there. So, okay, well, if that's the thought process in the front office, you would think that he would have, like, you know, been slurred if he was walking around town. But he told me that wasn't the experience. Tell me about some of the other guys that you've written about. and, you know, James Shaq Harris and Joe Gillum in Pittsburgh, you know, who were really the first NFL guys as the NFL was becoming this country's most popular sport. And it was a massive deal. I remember as a kid, I remember my father, you know, kind of sitting down with me and talking about what a big deal this was.

What did they face in those early days? Even before Doug, you know, got drafted by Tampa Bay. Yeah, you know, Jefferson Street, Joe, Kevin, and this was something I didn't remember because, you know, I was around, but I was like, you know, just like a toddler. But Jefferson Street, Joe, it's so important what you just mentioned about the NFL at this time was making this move to eclipse Major League Baseball as the national sport, as the national pastime. And this Pittsburgh Steelers team that had been horrible, you know, throughout its history, well, they start making. all these great draft picks. And the roster is being built in a way where, you know, and talking to old-time player personnel people,

the roster, what they told me for the book was, the roster was being built in a way where you could envision if they had a quarterback, this thing was going to be a beast. Well, Terry Bradshaw, the Hall of Famer, drafted number one overall. He's supposed to be the guy. But Chuck Knoll, the legendary Hall of Fame coach of the Steelers, he and Bradshaw clashed a lot early on, and it was a situation where Jefferson Street, Joe,

this star quarterback at historically Black College University of Tennessee State, the Steelers take him late in the draft. He's not a big guy, so he doesn't have all the measurables, but on the film, it jumps out of you the arm strength, the arm talent. So the Steelers take him, and they had other quarterbacks on the roster as well. And going into the Steelers' first Super Bowl season, Jefferson Street Joe actually beats out Terry Bradshaw and becomes a quarterback. Now, this is where you talk about how different NFL history could have been. Jefferson Street Joe gets the job, and he starts out well.

And he's actually on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And, you know, this black quarterback is on the cover of Sport Illustrated. This was monumental. I mean, I did a lot of interviews around this for the book, and this was just monumental. at this time. But what happened was, Jefferson Street Joe did not handle the racism he faced very well.

His dad, who was a defensive coordinator in college, his dad came to the house once and he showed him all this hate mail, like this massive box of hate mail. And he wasn't doing well with that. I've never faced anything like that, so I can't pass judgment on, you know,

how well the guy handled that or not, but it was very hard on him. And then he started clashing with Chuck Knoll because back in those days, quarterbacks called their own play. And Chuck Knoll believed in the running game, Franco Harris, Rocky Blyer, and that's what he wanted to do. And Jefferson Street, Joe was calling too many passes. Anyway, after a strong start, you know, there was some issues, and there was also the issue of drug use.

Jefferson Street Joe he had a drug problem and I don't know I can't say it was the pressure of the hate mail and you know the overt racism

but the reality is he had a drug problem and he winds up getting replaced by Bradshaw and you know Bradshaw doesn't get into this you know he doesn't talk about this a lot but I remember reading one thing

where Bradshaw said it wasn't it that I beat him out like he just gave me back the job because between Jefferson Street Joe's clashes with Chuck Noel his performance being shaking Noel not being happy

about the play calling Noel puts Bradshaw back in there well the rest is history the Steelers go on to win four Super Bowls with Bradshaw and Jefferson Street Joe he gets released the next season never

never plays NFL again the drug use was a big thing but had Jefferson Street Joe been able to hold on that job and the Steelers had gone on to dominate and become the team of the 1970s as they were. Who knows how that would have changed the perception of Black men at that position moving forward, but that didn't occur. I'm just curious, and I don't even know if I'm right about this, but my memory, I remember a game.

It was 1973. It was Monday night football at Three Rivers. It was the skins and the Steelers. The skins were the defending NFC champions. They had lost the previous year to the Dolphins and the Super Bowl. had lost to Miami and the AFC championship the year before during the Dolphins' perfect season after they won the Immaculate Reception game. And I think this is just a memory I could be wrong. And I was just trying to look it up and I can't find it anywhere. I think that was his first start and it was the first time a black quarterback started on Monday night football. I believe that is correct.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that that is correct. It was a Monday night game, right? Yeah, it was a Monday night game, and I remember CoSell being, you know, amped up over the fact that Jefferson Street, Joe Gillum, was going to be the starting quarterback and the first black quarterback to ever start on Monday night football. I think that's what it was. I could be wrong. No, I think, off the top of head, I think that's correct.

Because that whole, that whole, when it was even thought of that, okay, he may beat out Bradshaw and get this job, eventually. I can't put it in the best words that I need to explain what this was in the NFL. I mean, the shockwaves going through the league at that point, like, well, this could really happen. And, you know, this just was not something that took place in the NFL. So just even to the, even the run-up to it was just like, okay, is this really happening? Right. So more coming up with Jason Reed on his book, and we'll get into some really good stories that he told in the book about Joe Gibbs and Doug Williams.

We'll get to all of that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So James Harris was the quarterback that started for the Rams and started in playoff games, including, you know, being within a whisker of going to the Super Bowl. You know, he had Harold Jackson and he had, you know, Lawrence McCutcheon. They were good teams that just couldn't get by Minnesota or the Cowboys, you know, during that era and get to a Super Bowl. You know, playing in L.A., such a high-profile market at the time. What kind of stories about James Harris can you share with us? Well, let me take it back about James Shack Harris even a little further

to when he's a rookie with the Buffalo Bills. You know, he gets drafted by the bills, and he actually winds up being in 1969, the first black quarterback to start a game in the modern era, excuse me, to start in week one, in the modern era of professional football. Because Briscoe would come in the year before after the season it started, got it. Exactly, exactly. And who was he throwing to Marlon Briscoe, who at that point was a receiver? on the Buffalo Bills.

But I take it back, you talk about these stories that these guys went through. You know, in interviewing James for the book, like he told me that, like, when he would go

that when they were at the dorms during training camp, you know, that you had to, it's not like now, you know, you have to go pick up your mail from,

you know, the team, you know, got assembled all your mail and you'd go pick it up, you know, down at the, you practice with you bring it back

to your room at the dorms. And he told me, like, they couldn't even, they couldn't even let him just take the mail because there was so much hate mail that he would need help to bring it all back to the room. And he just couldn't believe, you know, he played at gambling. Historically Black College University, he was adored at gambling, okay? So when he gets to the bills, he just wasn't used to this type of hate.

He grew up in the South. You know, he understood that this is the Jim Crow South. He grew up and he understood like, you know, people kept separate. You knew where you had to be to not have issues. So he had not interacted with people who would, the people came to the games at gambling, they loved them. Well, these people did not love them. And it was a big thing when he was,

when the feeling was that he would be the first black quarterback to start in a week one in the modern era. I mean, he told me the run up to that. Like it was a very big thing and he felt it. And, you know, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, the Bill's thing didn't work out. And, you know, after week one, you know, and he told me like he didn't, it didn't work out, the team wasn't very good, it was an aging team, you know, those old Bill's teams in the

NFL had a lot of success, but the roster was aging by that point. So it doesn't work out. He's, you know, he's going to be out of football. The Rams call him, you know, he gets on the roster, and then he winds up playing, and he winds up playing, and he winds up being the first black quarterback to play, to, to, you know, to, starting a playoff game, to start in a Pro Bowl. And these are, you know, people maybe can't understand it now, but back then, these things had never occurred.

So it was a really big deal. And, you know, he's playing in Los Angeles. And unfortunately for the Rams, you know, these are the Tom Landry, Cowboys. Yeah. You know, the Bud Grand Vikings, yeah. The Bud Grand Vikings. You know, you're talking about in the history of this game, you know, organizations, led by men who, you know, were really great at what they did.

And don't get wrong, Chuck Knox, who was the coach of the Rams. Great coach, obviously, but the Rams just weren't good enough. But you see, what James told me you always remember was in the newspaper, in the newspapers, because back in those days had many newspapers covered you. But in the newspapers, it would always be, well, you know, it was James Harris's fault, not that it was the defense let down. And we know that quarterbacks get too much of the credit and too much of the blame. So you can imagine how a black quarterback in that situation in the mid-70s was feeling about it.

And, you know, the one thing that it was very sad that he told me is that he never felt that he played the way he could play because he was always worried about being taken out for mistakes. And, you know, you can't play like that as a quarterback. You have to be able to be – you've got to be able to be – you've got to be able to be – you've got to be – able to read it. You've got to know the playbook and all that, but you have to be able to be instinctive. You have to be able to be allowed to fail at times to succeed in the most, in the biggest moments. And he never felt that he could do that because he always felt that like, okay, I'll never be allowed to stay in the game. And he also didn't feel like he had, he felt

that Knox was committed to him, but he always felt like the front office and ownership, they were always looking for someone better, or someone else rather. Well, they had, they had, I mean, John Heddle was there. Ron Jaworski was there. Pat Hayden, you know, was a young player there when he was there. You know, the other thing as you're talking, it's like I'm realizing the quarterbacks that we've mentioned so far, none of them played for a Southern NFL team. Doug was the first to do that, right?

Yeah, yeah. And the thing about Doug is, you know, this is my favorite chapter in the book because I thought I knew everything about Doug Williams. I didn't know anything, okay? This is my favorite chapter in the book. And, you know, my favorite thing in the book is that when John McKay, the legendary former USC coach who left to go take over the expansion Buccaneers, when he dispatches this young coach on his staff, because John McKay was looking at the film on Doug Williams, was playing a grambling, who's having this massive season.

He sees this, you know, statues, strong-armed, you know, quarterback who he's envisioning being the quarterback for the Tampa of a Buccaneers. for 10 years. Only problem is he's black. So John McKay had black quarterbacks at USC, but this was a different, this was a different animal doing in the NFL. So John McKay dispatches this young running backs coach and his staff, this guy named Joe Gibbs. And he says, Joe, go to gambling, and you spend a week with this Doug Williams. And I want you to file a report at the end of the week and let me know what you think we should do here. Because in 1978, a black quarterback had never been taken in the first round of the NFL draft.

McKay was thinking of making history, but he knew this was going to take shockwave, would make shockwaves. So he didn't want to take a chance on being wrong about Doug Williams that he wasn't as good of a talent or he was a bad guy or, you know, he wasn't smart enough. Like, McKay needed to be sure about this because he was going to go to ownership and say, we got to do something that, like, people are going to be very angry about. So young Joe Gibbs, this young running backs coach, goes to the, grambling and he spends a week with Doug and Doug's then wife who passed who passed, then passed away later on.

And, you know, he talks to legendary, legendary, Glennman coach Eddie Robinson about Doug. I mean, Joe Gibbs does his due diligence. He puts in the work. And he follows this report. And at the end of the report, he says, look, outstanding football player, outstanding quarterback, really bright, personable, commands the huddle. this is the guy we should draft. And on Joe Gibbs' recommendation, John McKay drafted Doug Williams. See, here's the thing. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers at the time had the number of an overall pick.

Taking a black quarterback in the first round, that would have been one thing. That was going to cause enough problems. But taking one at the top of the draft, that was a bridge too far. So they trade out of the Buccaneers trade out of the top spot, and they wind up drafting Doug. And, you know,

Doug gets to Tampa. fans are furious, a ton of hate mail. You know, it's really bad for Doug. So, again, the young Joe Gibbs decides to basically watch over Doug. He's not Doug's physician coach, but he has Doug come to his house and he'd dinner with him and his wife every night. You know, if Doug needs help with anything, Joe Gibbs is there. And there's this one time in practice, and I know I'm getting long-winded, but let me get this. No, this is great stuff because I don't think, I can tell you this,

I don't think I remember ever hearing that Joe Gibbs went down to Grambling for John McKay and was the guy responsible for, you know, Tampa, you know, drafting Doug Williams. I mean, we've heard so many Gibbs, Doug Williams stories, but I don't think I've ever heard that one, so keep going. Yeah, so, you know, and let me be clear about this, you know, in case I wasn't. Doug Williams does not get drafted if Joe Gibbs says he's not the guy

he doesn't get drafted by Tampa Buccaneers does he get drafted later on in the draft I mean I can't speak to that but a black quarterback would not have been drafted in 1978 the first year one was if Joe Gibbs has any reservations about Doug Williams at all so you know move fast forwarding here

and now we're in the season or actually before the season and, you know, Doug Williams has eaten dinner with Joe Gibbs and his family every night. Joe Gibbs is a Doug Douglas, do you always call him Douglas. He's the only person ever called Doug Williams, Douglas. And there's this one day in training camp. And Doug's position coach is just berating him. I mean, Kevin, berating him in a way where he's not coaching him up.

Like Joe Gibbs is on the other end of the field, and he hears it. And, you know, I talked to Joe for, I talked to Coach Gibbs for this. and he didn't go, you know, he didn't tell me what was in his mind. But Doug said to me, he said, I think coach knew, coach being coach Gibbs. I think coach knew that I wasn't just being coached hard. There was something else going on. Joe Gibbs sprints from the other end of the field and gets in his coach's face and says, don't you ever talk to him like that again.

Now, you've got to understand. John McKay is the head coach. Joe Gibbs is not the Joe Gibbs you and I came to know. At this point, he's young offensive assistant. John McKay knew he was very bright, which is why he sent him to grambling to scout, this player who's going to shake up the world. But he's not some senior member on this staff. He's a kid, okay?

I mean, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but he's not a guy who has great stature in the staff. everything stopped during practice when this happened. And the way Doug explained the story to me, it was so shocking. Like there were guys throwing balls, like they just stopped. They didn't even catch them. Balls are dropping to the ground. Everybody's turning around.

And like it was practice just stopped. Well, Doug told me that this coach never berated him like that again. And, you know, you talk about like relationships forming in like these kind of key seminal moments where you say to yourself, that led to something much later on. You know, and the Buccaneers had success with Doug. I mean, he can have the greatest stats, okay? We can debate reasons why.

I mean, John McKay's offense was run first down, run, second down. You know, he could do that stuff at USC with, you know, OJ Simpson and, you know, Mike Garrett are running back. But, like, it didn't work out very well with those Buccaneers teams, you know, with Ricky Bell. But they had success in 77 with you know, excuse me, they had success in 79 with Doug. I mean, they had a good team. Long story short, Tampa Bay ownership, Doug was the lowest paid quarterback in the league. I mean, I think even 12 backups were making less than Doug at the time.

He wanted a new contract ownership said no. And he winds up sitting out and then go into the USFL. And if I could just stay with this story for one more. Please. Okay, so Doug is, you know, looking for a job. after the USFL foals. Coach Gibbs calls him, he says, you know, Douglas, how'd you like to come to Washington? So he's like, well, hey, coach, yeah, you know, I don't have a job.

Now, at the time, Jay Schrader's the quarterback, and of the Washington Redskins, and I say Washington Redskins, because that's what they were. Yeah, they were. Okay, so Jay Schrader's the quarterback, you know, he had a big year, and it was clear Doug was not coming here to compete for the job, and Doug knew that, and he accepted that, but, you know, after sitting, he was like, all right, you know, I want to, I want to start. Well, there's the coach gets more to want to accommodate him.

So he talks to the Oakland Raiders. Excuse me, they were in Los Angeles, Los Angeles at the time of me. So he talked to the Los Angeles Raiders, and he's going to send Doug to the Raiders, okay? And Doug is like, just on Cloud 9, because, you know, he keeps thinking himself, like, I can go start there. Doug literally Kevin has his bags packed. He is leaving. and Gibbs has second thoughts.

You know, I talked to coach about it, and I said, you know, well, why did you change your mind? He said, I'll be honest with you. I just had a feeling. It wasn't like there was something that, you know, made me, you know, upset me about the deal. I just had a feeling like I didn't want to do this. So he calls Doug and he says, Douglas, I've changed my mind. You're not going to the Raiders. Well, I mean, Doug is furious.

Furious. And he told me it was the worst conversation. he ever had with Joe Gibbs because he made it clear to Joe Boy, he said, you can't do this. You know, you told me, I lived. And coach got really angry. He said, Douglas, I am the head coach of the Washington Redskins. I don't work for the Raiders.

You're not going there. I've changed my mind. Toward the end of the conversation, he says to him, but here's the thing, Douglas. I think we're going to do something really big this year, and I think you're going to be a part of it. Doug is even listening at this point, okay? He's just like, whatever, hangs up the phone. Now, Jay Schrader had had, you know, a really great run. He had a big year.

But what happened was after that year, he became from, I talked to a bunch of players, you know, Bostic, a lot of guys who played with him. And what they told me was despise. Yeah. Like, like, I mean, they, because they felt like it was like, you know, him and everybody else. Right. That he, you know, he wasn't, he just wasn't like. And Gibbs sensed this.

I mean, he saw that the locker room was just fractured. And they had this really good team. So Gibbs, shockingly, puts Doug in there. It's late in the season. Minnesota, final week of the season. Exactly. Now, nowadays, if the head coach had done that, you'd be like, this guy's out of his mind.

You can't make a quarterback change going into the playoffs like this. But the team, Schrader had lost the team, just completely lost the team. And coach told me, it's like, yeah, you know, I had to do it. I just had no choice. Put the Doug in there. they wind up getting to the Super Bowl. And, you know, both of these guys told me that, like, Doug was like, I never, you know, I never thought that coach would actually do this.

And Gibbs' thing was that when we got to the Super Bowl, I never looked at him of the historical significance. He told me he never really even thought about it. It's like, okay, he's our quarterback, but then everybody that week in the media kept asking Gibbs about this, and he was like, oh, okay, well, this is, you know, obviously a big deal, but the relationship he had with Doug, he did not process it that way. Now, Doug obviously did.

Doug knew how big this was because a black man had never started in the Super Bowl. Well, we all know what happened. You know, the Redskins go on to blow out the Broncos. Doug Williams becomes first black quarterback to start in the Super Bowl and win the MVP and win the game. and that moment was, I mean, in black America, it was almost like a religious experience because you remember now the NFL is what we know the NFL as. Okay, it wasn't like the NFL before in the 60s and the 50s.

Now the NFL is the 800-pound gorilla, and it's only getting bigger. And now black quarterbacks who, you know, historically in league had never been permitted to play because they weren't considered to be smart enough. now this guy has this performance where it plants a seed that moving forward, well, okay, owners and team executives may have to think about this. But I so love the chapter on Doug Williams because the relationship between Doug and Gibbs, it does so much for African-American quarterbacks moving forward. Because, you know, all the way back to the Tampa Bay thing, that coach berating Doug, he never did it again.

But, you know, what happens if he, what happens if Joe Gibbs doesn't sprint the length of the field and get in this guy. Maybe Doug Williams crumbles under the pressure eventually. So, you know, within the book, there are a lot of stories like that. But to me, the Gibbs-Doug thing is so important because if that doesn't happen, if Doug, if Joe Gibbs does not essentially watch over Doug Williams, you know, history could be very different. Yeah, I don't know if this was the guy, but I looked it up from that staff. Bill Nelson was the quarterbacks coach who had played for McKay, I think it's Southern Cal, and it played in the NFL for several years. But that is such a great story.

You know, the story about, you know, the trade to the Raiders. I mean, Joe and Doug have told that story so many times. I've had them both. And Joe always, you know, when he tells that story, like you said, you know, he talks about just how absolutely incensed Doug was because Doug went home thinking he was going to be traded. And Joe said, yeah, we'll get it done in the morning. But what he was really doing is he was.

He said, I just needed a night to sleep on it and think about it a little bit more. And, you know, the other stuff about Williams here is, you know, it's a different time. It's 1987. It's not 2017. You know, it's not 2007. And this city and the love it had for its football season, and I've talked about this a lot. And a lot of this came up, you know, during the RG3 Kirk Cousins, you know, stuff. when a lot of people from the outside would talk about, you know, inject race into the conversation. And I'd say, you know, in 1987, every single player, coach, reporter, and fan desperately want to Doug Williams over Jay Schrader. And then couldn't wait for Jay Schrader to go. And Doug Williams was so beloved.

But, and that was in a less evolved time, you know, using air quotes there. I think the other thing that you said that's really interesting. about Gibbs, you know, not even recognizing it. You know, there's some truth to that. Gibbs was one of those examples, Jason, of like a competitor and a winner that is also incredibly narrow in many ways. Like, he didn't know during the 80s who Oliver North was. Like, he was asked about Oliver North during, you know, the Oliver North hearings during Iran-Contra, had no idea who he was. Somebody once asked him about Madonna during the heyday of Madonna and Prince and Michael Jackson had no idea who those people were. So it's not surprising to me that they get to the

Super Bowl and there's this big, you know, hullabaloo around Doug being the first starting black quarterback in a Super Bowl and Gibbs is oblivious to it, you know? Like that? Totally. Yeah. So anyway, I mean, I could do this forever. I guess I guess let's just wrap it up this way. when did it change when did it truly change where it wasn't a big deal anymore i mean we're really talking about the by the mid 1990s it was more commonplace but it really wasn't i think until the 1990 NFL draft when donald McNabb Dante Culpepper and achilles smith all went in the first round three black quarterbacks that was an acknowledgement by the league that okay these guys now,

the money's so big and you have to win. You can't afford to overlook anybody or to cast anybody aside for reasons that, you know, quite frankly, are pretty bad. So by 1999, going to the 2000 season of Michael Vic is drafted number one overall in 2001.

And nowadays, look, in draft rooms, no one says we're not going to take somebody because they're black. Now that may have happened, you know, that did it. happened in decades past. But the money got to be so big that by 1999, after what Warren Moon had done with Houston, Randall Cunningham in Philadelphia, Doug sewing that first seat in that Super Bowl, by the mid to late 1990s, now you saw a situation, okay, moving forward, yeah, this isn't going to be some oddity. It's not going to be something where you say, oh, wow, that guy's black.

So, you know, and then going into the 2000s, yeah, by that point it was like, okay, these guys are here to stay at these positions. But the money and then the performance of Moon and Randall Cunningham in the 1990s, that really changed it. Actually, one last question. And I don't know if you even have like a short list, but are there names of, you know, could have beens? Like are there black quarterbacks that never got the opportunity or got very limited opportunities that people that you talked to or convinced that if they had gotten the opportunities in, you know, 1971 or 1974, that they would have been great quarterbacks? You know, the problem with this, Kevin, is that, yes, I did talk to many player personnel

people retired who, you know, scouts, guys who looked at players, but the problem with me saying this definitively is that all those guys made the NFL, but they've changed positions. Right. And what we don't know is, like, okay, let me. Let me relate to something you and I both used to talk a lot about. Robert Griffin, the third, is drafted in D.C., and he has this great year. Okay, everything was built for him to succeed that year. But then after that year, things fell apart for many reasons,

which we don't need to get into right here. But for a quarterback to succeed, and I'm not telling you anything you don't know, it's so much about what the infrastructure is around him. How's the coaching staff? What's ownership like? Is there stability here? So, like, I talked to Scouts who had told me, yeah, you know, there were so many guys who in college, you said, wow, these guys really good, and maybe they project to be successfully. But would they have been successful?

We don't know what type of situations they would have been drafted into. So I could say, oh, yeah, you know, well, this guy played really well in college, and maybe he would have. But I can't say it definitively because I don't know what the situations they went into would have been like. And again, you go into a bad situation. it doesn't matter how talented you are. It may just not work. Thank you for doing this. Best of luck with the book.

Again, the book is called Rise of the Black Quarterback, what it means for America. You can get it anywhere you get a book. It's written by Jason Reed. Jason's been a senior NFL writer for ESPN for several years after leaving the post where he covered our team here for many years. I wish you the best with it. This was enjoyable. Thanks.

No, it was great. Kevin, I can't believe you'd ask you for my commander's pick, man. Go ahead. Give me what you think they're going to be this year. I got them with six to seven victories. Okay. So you're not a believer in Wentz? I mean, I said this other day on another show.

The guy's been run out of his last two teams in consecutive off seasons. Does he experience a career renaissance here? I guess anything is possible. But when you tell me your quarterback, literally was run out of his last team in consecutive off seasons. I don't think that's a great starting point. I mean, I've been through this so many times, but I agree with you. And I think people who are trying to say, oh, it was Ursay.

Well, no, it was Ballard. And if they really thought he was great, you don't think Frank Reich would have gone to the mat for him. And in Philadelphia, they took the largest salary cap penalty in the history of salary cap, dead cap hit in the history of the league. So, you know, we do have people in the fan base that, you know, only want to see, you know, the resurrection of a career as a possibility. But clearly Indianapolis and Philadelphia believed that the resurrection of a career wasn't

necessarily that likely. So we'll see. I mean, we'll see. They've got good weapons around them. They do. And McLaur is a great receiver. and they got them signed, but let me just say this last thing

because I know we got to go. The point you made about the cap hit, and this is something that I'm surprised that people don't seem to understand. The quarterback is every, and let's forget about black quarterbacks now. We're just talking about quarterbacks. Quarterback is everything.

Every team aspires to get a franchise quarterback they can build around for a decade to 15 years. The fact that Philadelphia took that hit, what people don't understand is that was a complete repudiation, because you're not going to take that cap hit on the most important position unless what you're saying is we have to get this guy out of here at all cost. So that's why I have six to seven victory.

Well, not to mention what they had to trade to get up into the draft to take them and all of the investment that was put in to this player, regardless of whether or not the organization was changing. This is the most important position in sports. And if you think you have one of those guys, you know, top half of the league, let's just say starter that you can win with, you don't take the biggest dead cap hit in the history of the league and you don't run them a year after you gave up a first round pick for them.

This is something that a lot of people who are listening, I'm telling you, struggle with because they think it's, you know, tilting negatively about it. No, it's just realistic. I mean, the chances I don't think are better than 50-50 that he works out as the long-term answer here. And the reason for that is because of what we're, we've just been discussing because those are two good organizations, Philadelphia and

Indianapolis, compared to Washington for sure. Anyway, by the way, it's not much better here than when you were covering the team. It's actually worse, but there is some optimism that they could, you know, be competitive this year. We'll see. Put it this way, by the way, Jason, Wence is better than what they've had here recently. So that's, I think you can say that. Frank Wright was his guy. I know. This was his guy. I mean, and he cuts bait a year after getting him.

Yeah, he did. I mean... Okay, anyway, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. Best of luck with the book. Thanks. Thanks, Kevin. Bye-bye.

I enjoyed that with Jason a lot. Great subject and great stories, including stories that really hit home with Joe Gibbs and Doug Williams. That was fun. All right, tomorrow I will have something else for you, I promise. So tune in then. Thanks.