The Kevin Sheehan Show - Rivera Fined $100K

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

Kevin started with the breaking Commanders' news that Ron Rivera was fined $100K and the team docked two 2023 OTA practices for "excessive conduct" during this year's offseason practices. Kevin had plenty on the Warriors' winning the NBA title last night. Kevin was joined by Chris Miller/NBCSports-Washington on the show to talk Golden State-Boston, Steph Curry, and the Wizards who will pick 10th in next week's NBA Draft. Dave Ungrady & Don Markus jumped on the pod to talk about their podcast series "Len Bias, A Mixed Legacy".  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. And that'll do it. It's over. The Golden State Warriors returned to a familiar place.

They're on top of the NBA world. The fourth title in eight years. The Dubs Dynasty is still very much alive. Yeah, the NBA champions are the Golden State Warriors, 103 to 903 to 90s last night to finish off the Celtics and six games. That's four titles and eight years for the Warriors, six finals visits in the last eight years. Yeah, they're a dynasty. Where do they rank on the list of dynasties? Well, they're not at the top, but they are climbing, and they may have more climbing to do. 103 to 903 to 90s last night in

game six in a raucous Boston Garden, another memorable performance from Steph Curry. More on this coming up shortly. Also, Chris Miller will be on the podcast today. Chris, of course, now the new play-by-play voice of the Wizards on NBC Sports Washington. We'll talk NBA finals, Golden State, Boston with Chris and the Wizards right now on the board at number 10 overall in next Thursday night's draft. But will they have that 10th pick or will they trade it for a veteran point guard? We'll ask Chris about that as well. Also on the show today, Dave Ungrady and Don Marcus. They've been producing, co-producing a mixed legacy, the legacy of Len Bias. 36 years ago tonight, Len Bias was selected in the 1986 draft, number two overall by the defending champion Boston Celtics. And then two nights

later, Len Bias was dead. Those two gentlemen have joined me on the podcast. Previously, they will do so again, and we'll talk to them as they are wrapping up their podcast series on the legacy of Len Bias. The show today is brought to you by MyBooky. Go to mybooky.com or mybooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and they'll match your first deposit dollar for dollar all the way up to a thousand bucks. I was looking on my bookie as I occasionally do it, a lot of the NFL prop bets, and their offensive rookie of the year odds. I wanted to see where they had Jahan Dotson. Jehan Dotson was the 16th overall pick in the draft. He is the 13th pick in the odds for offensive rookie of the year at plus 3,200. So bet a hundred win 3,200. So bet a hundred when 3,200.

on Jahan Dodson. To be honest with you, I don't think that's that bad of a play. I think there's a chance he could have a really good year. The favorite for the offensive rookie of the year is Kenny Pickett, the quarterback that was picked in the first round by the Steelers. Drake London is the second pick for offensive rookie of the year. And I promise you, if Drake London, the receiver at a USC, had been on the board at number 11 overall, where Washington was scheduled to pick, He would have been a Washington wide receiver. Instead, they traded back, picked up some picks with the Saints, and took Jahan Dotson at number 16 overall.

Go to mybooky.ag, mybooky.com, use my promo code, Kevin, D.C., and they'll match your first deposit. They'll double it all the way up to $1,000. So as we are beginning the podcast today, there is breaking news on the commanders. The commander's head coach, Ron Rivera, has been fined $100,000 for that $100,000 fine sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? It was one week ago today that Ron Rivera levied a $100,000 fine against Jack Del Rio. Ron Rivera find $100,000, and the commanders as a team docked two OTA practices for next year for excessive contact in practice drills.

I think Ben's standing among the first to report that from the athletic. And the commanders, again, Rivera gets fined $100,000 personally. and the team gets docked two of their OTA practices in 2023. They'll have nine scheduled but now only seven scheduled. NFL teams get nine. They'll have seven for excessive contact in practice drills. This would kind of go under the category of there's always something, you know, just wait a day and something else will.

pop up, whether it's Del Rio or Congress or another investigation, they're not the only team that was penalized for this infraction. The Cowboys were similarly punished for a similar thing on Thursday. The Texans also got punished today, but neither organization was penalized as severely as Washington was. So Washington gets the top penalty for excessive contact. Remember last week during OTAs,

Ron Rivera apparently got as angry as he's gotten ever, according to the people that were there, for a hit that Jeremy Reeves put on Diami Brown, and Diami Brown got up and was a little bit sore. The team had no statement. They declined

comment on this particular penalty from the league. The NFL informed Martin Mayhew, the general manager, via letter about the penalties, and the letter stated, quote, there's no question, closed, quote, a team does this to gain a competitive advantage. The collective bargaining agreement prohibits live contact during these OTA sessions, and Washington had, excessive live contact. According to the letter, Washington's quote, intensity and tempo of the club's interior line play and pass coverage during 11-on-11 drills were at a level where players were

clearly engaged in physical contests closed, quote. In some cases, players were slow to recover after those collisions. The letter stated, Rivera needed. to intervene when practices became too physical and remind players of the rules and to maintain, quote, appropriate control, closed quote. So there was the Reeves and Diami Brown, but apparently there was more than just that incident, according to reports. Rivera at one point after that particular OTA session last week said, quote, I really

appreciate the way they practice, the way they practice hard. they get competitive every now and then, but we've got to have the discipline to understand, closed quote. And again, there are reports out there that there were collisions worse than that one, the Reeves-Di-Brown collision during some of the other OTA practices, which were closed to the media. The reason the Diombe Brown-Germi-Reeves collision and then subsequent berating from Rivera was reported on is because media was their live. So there you go.

I don't hate this at all. I know it could be, you know, thrown into the bucket of, my God, can this team ever do anything right? Or are they always going to get picked on? Or always going to do things that allow people to kind of pick on them? I don't think they've been picked on much. I think most of it has been earned and deserved. over the years. But this is

straight out of my good friend Doc Walker's playbook, which is, I guarantee you he loves it. I haven't heard his podcast today, and maybe he recorded a podcast this morning before this news broke. But this is something the Ravens have been fine for in previous years.

Two OTA practices next year, who cares? I love what it at least, you know, from outside looking in represents. And that is a team that's hungry, that is competitive, and that wants to get ready for the 2022 season. Who knows what it really represents? For all we know, the coaches let it get out of control,

and the players didn't like it very much. But I love what it represents in terms of competitive edginess. I don't hate this at all, based on this early report of this. I don't know, subject to change if we find out more. But giving up two OTA days because they were too aggressive and the hitting was too excessive in OTAs. I don't hate it. Maybe that's just me, but I don't hate it.

There was other news commanders related. They announced their training camp schedule, July 27th through August 18th, of it in Richmond, all of it in Ashburn with a practice scheduled for the public at FedEx Field as well. The Richmond thing never worked out for the city of Richmond. It really didn't work out from a football standpoint for the team. Financially, it worked out well for Dan Snyder and the business side, but there were plenty of days down there where the field was not in condition after flooding rains, afternoon thunderstorms to be practiced on.

and they would have to go inside of a hotel ballroom to get some of their work done. You know, a lot of coaches will tell you there's a benefit to being away for training camp, but not if it rains. You can't practice if there are flooding rains. I don't think this was ever beneficial to the football team, and it certainly wasn't beneficial to Richmond. But training camp begins July 27th. It'll be here before we know it.

And there is a free event at FedEx Field scheduled for Saturday, August 6th in the evening from 645 to 9 p.m. That's a free event open to the public, although you've got to claim tickets at Ticketmaster. So anyway, that's pretty much the commander's news of the day. I want to get to the NBA and last night's game, and then Chris Miller will jump on with me to continue the conversation. So first of all, as it relates to the game last night, I'll start with this. She can't turn the ball over 22 times, as Boston did, against a team like Golden State and expect to win. That was the biggest issue they had all series long. They could not protect the basketball, specifically their two best players, Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown,

both of whom last night were awful. Now, Jalen Brown had 34 points. it's hard to say that a guy was awful when he scores 34 points, but I did not think he was very good. He had five turnovers could have been more. Jason Tatum had five turnovers, 13 points on six of eight shooting. He was horrendous last night. He ended up this playoff season with 100 turnovers,

more than any player in the history of the league. he was not up to the occasion. He looked exhausted to me the other night. He looked it again last night after they jumped out 14 to 2 and then gave up at the end of the first quarter and into the second quarter a 21-0-0 Golden State run, the biggest run unanswered in 50 years in the NBA finals. Boston came out with high energy,

looking for the knockout punch. I thought they had delivered it when they were up 14. to two, but Golden State has too much championship pedigree and medal. Certainly, Clay and Dremond and Steph. They smelled blood in the water heading into this game last night. I thought there would be a game seven. I was wrong. Steph Curry with another memorable performance. A great performance. 34 points, seven assists, probably should have been more. Two steals, seven rebounds. As much as he was double-teamed, double-teamed the way that he is required to handle the ball, just two turnovers in 40 minutes.

12 of 21 from the floor, 6 of 11 from behind the arc, 4-4 from the free-throw line. He didn't shoot his free throws until late in the game. 34 to follow up the 43 and 10 rebounds that he had the last game in Boston Garden in game four. He is the runaway MVP, his first finals MVP. And really, I think it should have been his second. I think their first title that Igadala got it, but I thought Curry deserved it. But Steph Curry really last night with another incredible performance. I thought it was Draymond Green's best game.

I thought Clay Thompson was outstanding at times. I thought Jordan Poole was great. Otto Porter had two made three-pointers in just, 13 minutes. But Golden State wins. And another game, we did not have one great, dramatic game in the NBA finals. Not one of them. Every single game in this series was won by 10 or more points. The dramatic run by Golden State at the end of the first quarter and through the second quarter was exciting. They went from down 12 to up 21. There was a 33-point swing in about 10 minutes of real time, 10 minutes of basketball clock time.

It was really quite remarkable the run that Golden State went on. Not 10 minutes, really. It was more like 15 minutes of clock time. They were down 14 to 2, about 5 minutes into the game, and they went up 21 with, I don't know, about 4 minutes left in the second quarter. That's roughly what I'm thinking it was. So, yeah, something like 15 minutes of clock time. whatever. That game never really got competitive after that. Jason Tatum, I mean, just a terrible

performance. He had five turnovers. He was a mess with the basketball in his hand. He was a mess when he got run at defensively by a second defender. He couldn't pass the ball to save his life. He didn't shoot it well last night, made just one of four from behind the arc. And he looked exhausted to me. But bottom line is, Boston, in this postseason, when they weren't turning the ball over and the other team had to face them with a set defense, it was really difficult to score. When they turned it over and you had live ball turnovers turning into transition, they lost. And that's what happened in this series. Golden State turned all of those turnovers into much easier scoring opportunities, and they won last night to end it.

And we've got to talk about two other things as it relates to these NBA finals before we get to Chris Miller. One is this. Four titles in eight years, six finals appearances in eight years. The two finals they lost, 2016 to LeBron's Cavs, when Draymond Green got suspended with the Warriors up three games to one. That should have been five titles in six years. He should have never been suspended. And then to Kauai Leonard and the Toronto Raptors when Kevin Durant got hurt. The two years they didn't make the finals, one was a COVID bubble year, weird pandemic season. And the other was

they were devastated by injuries. So Golden States run here, which started, you know, in 20, you know, the 2014-2015 season is really now we're starting to talk about all time in terms of dynasties. You know, I don't put it ahead of obviously the Celtics dynastic, you know, run through the 60s. You know, I don't put it ahead of what the Bulls did in the 90s. They won six titles. I personally would not put it ahead of the Lakers and their run with Magic Kareem worthy, etc. in the 80s, when they won five titles from 1980 through 1988 and were in other finals appearances that they lost, losing to the Sixers, the Celtics,

and then finally to the Pistons as well. I mean, eight finals appearances for the Lakers over that stretch is amazing. And of course, the Celtics of the 60s, far different league back then, 12 finals appearances, 11 rings for Bill Russell and company from 1957 and 1969. Those are the three true all-time dynasties in the NBA. But you start to now look at Golden State with their fourth title from 2014 through last night. They're probably next in line.

I mean, you could go to the Celtics of the 80s who won three titles with Larry Bird and made five finals appearances. But the Warriors are four titles and six finals appearances. And again, I think they should have had a fifth title if Draymond Green doesn't get suspended, up three games to one. And it took everything Kauai Leonard and Toronto had and a major injury to Kevin Durant to lose the sixth time they were there. And who knows what would have come of the pandemic year had it been a normal

basketball year. But really that, and I would throw the spurs in there over though, even though it was over a much longer period of time. There are five NBA titles, six NBA finals appearances, but really over a 17 year period, you know, with Tim Duncan and all of the great players that surrounded him starting with David Robinson and going to Genoblee and Tony Parker, etc. But in order, it's for me, the Celtics of the 60s, even though I put that kind of in a category by itself, the league had fewer teams, and man, those Celtics were loaded with Hall of Famers. The Bulls of the 90s, the Lakers of the 80s, you know, those are the three that really stand out, but now Golden State's starting to approach that conversation.

The other part of the finals story is Steph Curry. and what he did last night to strengthen slash enhance his legacy. We've talked about this, Tommy and I have talked about it. Obviously, Tommy has very strong feelings about the way basketball is played. I don't think he truly understands what a great score Steph Curry is. And he likes to use the term decoy, but what it does in terms of making everybody else better when you're the kind of shooter and score that Steph Curry is. My God, they picked him up 75 feet from the basket in this series

and then doubled him consistently when he had the ball in the front court several times almost right when he crossed half court. You don't think playing four on three is easier than playing four on four the rest of the way? Yeah, Steph Curry's presence on a basketball floor has always given his team, a better chance. He's not the only player in the history of the game to do that, clearly, but very rarely in the history of the game, have you seen a player picked up and dragged from 75 feet from the basket all the way into the front court and then doubled? That's an incredible thing to even discuss when it comes to basketball.

No player is the answer to that question. No player has ever been guarded in that kind of a way. Look, I've said this before. He's the greatest shooter, in my opinion, in NBA history. He's the best combined ball handler and shooter in one body that I've ever watched in NBA history. He's got four titles. He's got two regular season MVP. He's got two scoring titles. He's got a finals MVP now.

Only Wilk Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Michael Jordan have what he has in those categories. or more. That's it. You know, people have nitpicked at his legacy, nitpicked at his placement among the greatest players of all time. There's been this comparison to Kevin Durant. You know, could he do it without Durant? Well, he already did it once without Durant. Should have done it twice without KD.

And he just did it in the most unlikely of ways. Steve Kerr called it the most unlikely of titles. Steph Curry carried a team, like other great. rates have done. He carried that team. Wiggins was outstanding. Green and Thompson, I was glad to see him get it going in this series as well in some key moments. But Steph Curry was the story of these NBA finals. And he's got more to go. You can't write the story and complete it now. He could win another title or two, but for me, Steph Curry is now a top 10 player all time. I talked about this with Tommy. My list is Michael,

Magic, Wilt, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Larry Kobe, Elijah one, and now I've got Steph at number 10. I move them ahead of Durant, Oscar, Duncan, and Shaq, and into the top 10.

So after Curry, you can start with Shaq and Duncan for your conversation at 11, Oscar and Durant for your conversation at 13 and 14. I am definitively putting Steph into my all-time top 10 with some room to climb. He's only 34 years old, although it would be hard for me to see him at the Michael Magic Larry LeBron category to see him up that high.

But who knows? There is more to come. They're going to be a threat next year. They are. I mean, they had some young players. I mean, Wiseman didn't play at all. Cominga didn't play that much. I think the West is loaded, and I think look out for the Clippers next year with Kauai Leonard and Paul George back healthy. But Golden State, you know, they're the favorites. Five to one, according to Cesar's, to win the NBA title next year. Brooklyn and Boston are next at six to one,

and then the Bucs, Sons, and Clippers are all at 8 to 1 to win the NBA titles. So there could be a lot more to come. The NBA finals didn't produce a great game. The NBA playoffs were really kind of boring in terms of dramatic games, but there were some incredible performances and certainly Steph's performance in these NBA finals. Spectacular. The Celtics did a lot of it to themselves, too. Can't turn the ball over the way they did and expect to beat a good team like Golden State.

All right. Up next, Chris Miller will join me. We'll continue our NBA conversation and turn it also to a conversation about what the Wizard will be doing this time next week or what they will have already done this time next week. That's next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. Joining us on the show now is Chris Miller. Chris is the Washington Wizards play-by-play voice moving forward, starting in the 2022-2020 season.

Of course, he's done a lot of games over the course of a long time. And I am thrilled. You and I have already talked before. I can't even remember if you've been on the radio show or the podcast since you were named the Wizards Play-by-Play Voice. But if you haven't been, congratulations on that. It's earned. It's well-deserved. And I think a lot of people that know you are very excited for you to get that gig.

And we'll talk some Wizards. But, you know, you watched last night. You've been watching. First of all, I'm just curious. Before last night, what did you think was going to happen? because I still gave Boston a chance. I said before the series started, Kevin, and thank you again. I said Warriors in six.

I thought the Warriors were going to win the title before the season started. They just looked to me like a team that was ready to run it back again with some really good young complimentary pieces, and I'll get to that in a second. But I think when it's all done, maybe today, maybe two weeks from now, maybe three weeks, maybe the start even of next season. The Boston Celtics are going to go back and look at game four and go, we just lost the series. When they lost the game four, I was like, oh, this is a rap.

Because I felt like that was their kill shot, and they didn't take it, and they allowed Golden State to get one in Boston. And then obviously we knew what happened after that. But I all along thought the Warriors were going to win in six. I thought it was going to be a very competitive series, which it ended up really being happened in game six, especially in that second quarter, that 21-to-nothing run, I thought the Warriors, Kevin, took the life out of Boston,

took their heart, ripped it out, the fans turned on them, and the one thing that, you know, being with this wizard's organization for 15 years, we've always had problems in Boston because we could never take the crowd out of it. I think the fuel that its team gets in Boston is predicated on their feelings, fans. And when you can get their fans to boo them, you got a chance. And I just thought they just ripped their heart out last night. Yeah, you were, by the way, really referring to game five, when Curry had a bad shooting night and they still lost. Game five, thank you very much. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, as the game that they'll look back and regret for a long period of time,

and that was the game that Wiggins had, you know, his career game. I mean, I want to get to the Curry conversation because you know you're the kind of person that I will enjoy having this conversation with. That's incredible that you picked the Warriors in Six. I didn't know that. I really wanted to pick the Warriors and I picked the Warriors all along before the postseason started and then before the series started I changed it to Boston and seven because Chris I do think and I think I even still feel that way right now that Boston has more pieces and I just thought they were so impressive defensively throughout, as they were in this series as well, that I just thought that that would ultimately win the day, even though Golden State had experience.

And I thought they had a chance going into last night. But one of the things that I think became very apparent in both games four and five is it looked to me like Tatum and Brown were running out of gas. I thought they looked defeated at the end of game five. And that worried me going into the game last night. and I thought Tatum was awful last night. And he's a great player, and he's going to get other swings at this thing. But he was completely befuddled. And I thought he looked totally spent physically.

What did you think? I'm going to disagree with you on just the notion of you thinking Boston had more than Golden State. I disagree. I think Golden State. Steve Kerr didn't do in this series that I thought he would have used like his Phil Jackson card. and used it. This young man, Jonathan Cominga, was my favorite player coming out of the draft last year, Kevin.

I mean, I'm on the record with that. He could have at least put Caminga in there in spot moments and just said, for five minutes, you're just going to guard either Brown or Tatum. And he never really pulled that card. So I think Golda said had more pieces. Only when Draymond looked the way he did in game six, when he's able to get the ball off the rim and push pace,

now the Celtics defense is scattering. Who the hell are we trying to find? Okay? Because now Draymond can push it up, and you get Curry coming in this secondary break, and he can just launch from 40 feet. You and I know that. I just think once the Warriors exposed Boston's defense for being listened,

they are an elite defensive team when they are allowed to do what, Kevin? Load up, set up their defense, and pick who they want to go at. But if you're able to run down their throat, they're just like anybody else's defense. They're scattering around, trying to figure out who are we trying to take out. And in that second quarter,

when Jordan Poole started getting activated and started hitting shot, that's when Golden State is really at their best because now you've got, I hate to call him Curry Light, but he does have this ability to hit some tough shots, some distant shot, and he can get his swag going a little bit.

bit, and now you're getting maybe take a break, maybe getting some rest, you know, he is 34, and that's why I think Golden State had more pieces. And again, Steve, I think they're going to win it again next year, Kevin, because we haven't seen

Wiseman yet. We saw pool. Comminga is in the building. Moses Moody is another young fellow that I think could shoot the basketball. They've got tons of talent in Bob Myers. Again, last night, I think, Steve mentioned it, doesn't get enough credit.

They have put together a dynasty because those two years, when they were hurt and COVID, and they were at rock bottom, they weren't really at rock bottom. They were reloading in real time and nobody noticed it.

Until you see them now go, oh, wow, they could do this thing again because now next season, Kevin, I think now Curry, Thompson, Green, don't have to play a bunch of minutes in the regular season. Steve Kerr can put these young kids out here in November and December and like,

hey, look, get your minutes now because when the playoffs start, now we can really toy with some lineups that can really be funky for teams to try to deal with. This Golden State team, not only is it a dynasty, but I have a question for you, Kevin, if, so they ask four. Curry wins five. Now the calculus really changes on where you're putting him, like in your top 10. And if he gets the six, then we're going to have a real conversation.

Yeah, it's not over yet. And, you know, I was taken to task by one of my callers on the radio show this morning to say he's only 34. We can't have that conversation yet. And I said, well, that's fine. But I do sports talk radio. And we're having that conversation about Brady and Rogers right now. And they're still not done.

But, you know, a couple of things. Number one, you're right. I mean, ultimately you were right. They had more pieces and they didn't use some of those pieces, and that's a good point. But for Boston, you know, you said it. Look, when they're able to set their defense, as they were in, you know, games one and games three in particular, it's been, then it's really, really tough and was tough for Golden State to generate offense.

What really killed Boston, and this is hardly a revelation, is the term. turnovers in the live ball turnovers that allowed Golden State to get out in transition and score and, you know, not have to face Boston set defense. I still can't believe, Chris, that one player, Jason Tatum, had 100 turnovers in a postseason. And I thought last night he had five, he could have had eight or nine. He got lucky on a couple of ball handling, you know, sloppy ball handling moments, a pass, or two that should have been picked or should have gone out of bounds. It was saved, you know, inbounds by one of his teammates. It was the turnovers that really devastated them and got Golden

State out in transition where, like you said, look, if any team, at any level, you know this, because you've coached and you said, when you can get out and you don't have to face a team that's set defensively, it makes it a lot easier, a lot easier. You know, I'm a huge fan. Obviously, you know, I'm a Carolina fan. I just love pace. I love secondary break. Anything that you can do to speed up the game and not allow a defense to pick at and go at maybe your best player. Or, you know what I mean?

Like throwing double teams and, you know, jump defense. If you're allowed to get it off the rim and go, that's the way the game was supposed to be played. You know, I always told us to kids. I said, you know, Dr. Nath Smith never invented the game for two hoops just for you to kind of slow walk the ball. all of. There are two hoops for a reason, right? And the turnovers to me, Kevin, I don't know this, maybe you can help me. I don't know if there's any league on planet Earth where you can have 22 turnovers in the game and survive it. I just, that is extremely difficult. I don't care if the game is in October or game six of the finals. You turn that ball over 22 times. I think

the percentages of you winning that game are very minimal. Hatham has got to learn, and he's young, again. He'll be here again. I have no doubt about that. He has to understand, and he got better. You know, game one, Golden State was like anybody but him. And I think he had double-digit assist, correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin. Yeah.

I think he had 13 assists. Well, not last night. He did a really good job, and that first game will be like, look, they're throwing everything at me. Let me get my teammates. going. I thought the way he was passing the ball in game. One was like efficient, not trying to globetrotter it.

Let me just get the guy, you know, let me get smarter shot in the pocket, right on time, all those things. But he's got to learn. He cannot turn that basketball all over. He is way too valuable to his team. I mean, that's just mind-numbing. A hundred turnovers and 60. That to me, if you had told me that before the series,

out of bets, you probably might more. You said that wouldn't happen. Yeah, it was incredible. 100 turnovers over 14, 18, 24 playoff games. That is, that's unbelievable. Ultimately, I just think, you know, the turnovers did them in. And obviously, Steph did them in as well. So let's move the conversation to him.

He was brilliant, you know, with the exception. And by the way, I don't even think he had that bad of a game when he went for 16 points. I thought he made a lot of the right decisions in passing the basketball. I thought he could have had more assists in that game if his team had shot the ball better. But the fact that, you know, as you said, game five, meant to say game five, Boston couldn't win with Curry going 0 for 9 from behind the ark and scoring just 16 points will be certainly a regret. But tell me what you think of Steph Curry.

And he's got a lot, he's got more to go. I understand that. But right now, you know, when. when you have this conversation with your friends about him and what his, you know, ranking is and where he is on the all-time greats list, where do you have them? You know, I have a really good friend that has been on the Curry bandwagon when he was, even at Davidson. I remember before they played Maryland, he was telling me about this kid Curry.

And I was like, who? And he's like, no, you're going to see this kid can shoot. and you've got a really good handle. He's a transcendent player, Kevin. Kevin, he's changed the game. And I'll put it in a way where Coach Shee, and you'll understand this. So my oldest son played basketball, D2 players. We would work out before the Curry era, and he would walk into the gym,

and the first thing we would do is he would get a shot under the basketball. My other son, I graduated from DeMath, and it's a D2 player right now, when we started working out because of Steph Curry, the very first thing he would do when to get in the gym, Kevin, was what? Launch one from deep. Launch a damn shot from three. And I jokingly with tongue-in-cheek to say,

I blame Steph Curry for that. Because, as you know, these kids today don't mind shooting from 30 feet. No. Even in game. I know. Now, you've got to get a coach that's going to be like, hey, go sit down next to me. fellow, you're not, you're not, Seth.

Okay, know your personnel, right, K-Y-P? But that's the kind of thing that I talk about with Seth Curry. I put it in a way where, like, you know, coaches of young kids, he changed the game. He changed the game in which kids actually walking to the gym. Like, what is the first thing that they do? Before it would be like, hey, let me get, like, five layups then, and then I'm going to extend out.

Now, these kids are getting the ball as soon as they don't even warm up. They just shoot them 30 feet. So that's the part of the game where he has really turned it around, where it is in vogue now to shoot as far as you can. I'll give you another example. I was on a wizard's workout a week ago, and this kid, Remy Martin, was in there working out, and they do a drill. It's one-on-one. You get it off the rim, and you run down the other end of the court, and you're playing one-on-one, 5, 4, 3, 2-1. Remney Martin hit four threes, Kevin, essentially back to back to back to back from 30 feet and beyond.

He literally came across half-horts of one dribble and launched. And I remember looking at one of the assistant coaches that I said that damn Steph Curry. So that kind of answers your question as to how he has actually changed the game of basketball. Right. But there have been people who have changed and been culturally. impactful and game impactful. But that doesn't answer the question about where, you know, he is on the list of all-time great players. You know, clearly, Wilt changed the game.

They changed rules around Wilt. And, you know, we've seen in different sports certain players have that kind of impact. But I think that Steph going into this series was thought by a lot of basketball people to be certainly a transcendent and transformational and impact. player in the way you just described, but not at the level of some of the all-time greats. Like, nobody was, not many people were going to put them in their top 10, you know, if you have a top 10. And I, I think that maybe these finals will change the minds of many of those people. So what do you think on that? Like, is Steph one of the greatest 10 players in the history of the game?

I think I'm more open-minded to it. today than I was yesterday. And what changed was a fourth title in eight years, and him being clearly the best player on those four championship teams. Now, you're going to go, wait a minute, Chris, he did have Kevin Durant, right? I think he, and this goes to his greatness, I think he understood just how good Kevin Durant was

and was able to welcome him, embrace him, allow him to beat Kevin Durant. And I think that also needs to go into the calculus of his greatness, Kevin. Kevin, how many times have we watched the game or we just see guys that just don't vibe together? I think that needs to also be in the narrative of Steph Curry is his ability to allow another great player, top 75 players, to come into the floor. to be the best version of himself, not allowing the egos and all of this other stuff nonsense to creep in anyone's titles together.

That should also be in the narrative. So today, I have more open-minded of saying, maybe you should be putting Curry into the top 10. I just don't know who that kid's player you're taking off. Well, that's what you have to do. But I do know this. Yeah. I do know this.

If he wins again next year, there's no doubt because he's in a five ring club. And that's, you know, we know who's on that list. I heard you on the radio talking about Duncan. And I think I love Duncan more than you do. But maybe you're taking him off the list and putting Curry in there, especially if he gets to number five. Yeah, look, I mean, it's such a hard thing. I mean, I already went through my list.

You know, Michael Magic, Wil, LeBron, Russell, Kreme, Larry, Koby, Hakeem, and now I've got Curry in my top 10. I took out Shaq, and I put him ahead of Duncan, Oscar, and Durant. I think he definitely is ahead of Durant now. Durant got swept by this team, okay? He got swept by this team with Kyrie Irving on his team in the first round. So I don't want to hear Durant right now. He's got a long ways to go, too. And Durant's, you know, an all-time great player.

Don't get me wrong. But Curry is ahead of him now. But like in all of these conversations, it's like, yeah, he's top 10. But then you start going through the list. You're like, no, he's not better than him. He's not better than him. Maybe he's not top top. But I love Duncan.

Don't get me wrong. You also played on some great teams, some incredibly well-coached teams, great players around them. I love Duncan, but I just think I would have Curry. ahead of them. But, you know, you said something just about, you know, what the impact on young kids. And I, God, it really is. It's a last decade thing, because if you go back 10 years ago, you know, you're still, you know, at the youth level, at the high school level, you're still trying to get the best possible shot you can closest to the basket. And now it's not unusual to be,

in a place and watch, you know, a high-level youth basketball game where a team attempts 25 to 33's with a running clock, you know, a 17-minute-half running clock. I mean, especially, you know, if you've got those kinds of teams where you've got shooters on it, it's been fun. Not everybody loves it. I like the evolution of basketball and how it changes, and there will be another change coming down the road that we can't anticipate. But a hell of a game by Curry last night, and obviously game four is up there all time. All right, let's talk about the team that you'll be calling. By the way, you mentioned Remy Martin, and you said he came in the gym and he started shooting threes.

Like, I like Remy Martin, but I think he's got an odd stroke, doesn't he? He does. And, you know, I'm still a little bit sensitive seeing him. I wanted to punch him in the face. walking to the arena because he hit all those corner shots in the second half of the national championship games. I'm bitter. Yeah, it's a little weird. And he's

small, Kevin. Yeah, he's like, right. I was like, oh, that's, G League, right? You take G League, right? Yeah, it's a little bit of an awkward shot, but man, it goes in. You know, it was going in, and he's a young player that obviously has been watching up the Curry tape, right? You think

of Trey Young. You think of all these young players now that are not afraid to just shoot from range. And again, it goes back to what Steph Curry did. You know, Kevin, we were talking about youth sports. And I think analytics is kind of crept in there also because what you're seeing is if we're able to face the floor out by having grand shooters, that also opens up attack lanes for, you know, really athletic wing guys to get to the cup or, you know, throw in a lob in the bunker spot to a big.

So I can see how this game has evolved. And I agree with you. There's probably going to be another evolution to the game. But us old heads, we've got to get more comfortable with watching these kids launch, especially if they're hitting them. You know, it's not a shooter. If you should shoot from 30 feet, you guys come sitting next to Coach. Well, Coach Sheehan occasionally has said,

there's a reason they're leaving you wide open. Let's recognize what that reason is. And let's make the next pass because the guy standing next to you, with the floor space was wide open, and he's a really good shooter. So, you know, yeah, no, I mean, I think one of the things in Tommy and I've talked to Tommy about this over the years, what Curry really did is he changed kind of the geometry of the floor. You have to guard out much further, and it's created so much more space to drive the basketball. Look at what you saw in the last couple of games.

They were picking this dude up 70 feet from the bucket in the back court. and then doubling him when he crossed half court. There were possessions where they literally doubled him after he crossed half court, which was nuts. All right, let's get to the team that we both care about the most and the team that you will be calling all of the games for next year, and that would be the Washington Wizards. The draft is on Thursday night. Right now, your guess as to whether or not they acquire the point guard that they need,

through the draft at number 10 through a trade-up and selection in the draft or through a trade for a veteran player. How do you think the Wizards acquire their point guard for next year because they don't have one right now? Great question. I'm going to say they're going to avoid through a trade or free agency. I think they either keep in or they're able to move up by using some of the young assets that they have currently on the rock. All right. So if you're talking about free agency or you're talking about a trade for a veteran point guard, why don't you at least give me one guess as to who the starting point guard for

the Wizards will be next year? Ooh, that's a good one. You know, I keep hearing Malcolm Brogden's name. I keep hearing it, and I would be very interested to be a Brogden deal back to. Right. Me too. Highly intelligent, highly intelligent backports with some size. Brogden can shoot it.

He can facilitate it. His IQ is off the chart. That would be an interesting backport for us to look at. What do you think? Let's just say, you know, this is obviously hypothetical. But let's say they acquired Malcolm Brogden. And you had next year on the roster, you had Brogden, because we both feel like Beale is going to sign. the long-term extension, the $246 million deal.

And you had Brogden and you had Beal and you had Porzingis and you had Kuzma and you had Hachamura and you had KCP and you had Avedia. Who am I forgetting? Kispert. What do you think? Everybody stays healthy. Nobody gets hurt. It comes together nicely.

What is their upside in the east? What's the best they could finish in the east? with that group healthy? I think that's at least a mid-made basketball team. So that's at least second round, Kevin. Okay. So you would have... Look what it does.

Look what it does. It fixes the defense is part of it, because we both agree Malcolm Brogman is a really good defensive point guard. He's also a facilitator. He can also shoot. So that checks off the boxes of that position. Bradley Beal,

who I know will be motivated coming off a career low playing just 40 games. Now he's got his full five-year max, right? There's no worrying about a contract. He's the guy. You look at a guy like Cal Cousal, who I thought was the MVP of the team last year. Now he's going into a contract year. He definitely wants to have a great season.

And these young kids have now developed. And we're talking about just being healthy. Well, Kevin, can you stay healthy? If you can get a group that can be together, 70-plus games, and they've got a lot of talent, they're going to win games. You've got to stay healthy. If they're able to stay healthy with that group, that's at least a mid-made group to me. At least. Okay.

I mean, second round means top four seed, which means approaching 50 wins. I mean, I just want to make sure we're clear on that, that if you think that they make it to the second round, you think that they are a 40-7. to 51 win team somewhere in that range. Of course, what we're hypothetically discussing is probably not going to happen because this group won't stay healthy. They've got too many players with injury history. I know you have to run. I've got one more for you. If they stay at 10 and they have the 10th pick in the draft, give me some players that you like at 10. Kevin, I absolutely love Benedict Matherin. I don't know if he's going to be there.

I don't think he's going to be there in 10. But for me, he's somebody that just he fits the NBA mold, size, athleticism, ability to shoot, get to the basket. Oce Abaji, the kid from Kansas, a big tour player in the year. It's 22 years old. And guess what, Kevin? It's okay to be an upperclassman in the NBA today, where that was like, well, God, we've got to get a kid at 19 and develop.

No, it's okay to get a 22-year-old. I'm glad you said that. I agree with that. I can't stand. I got so much pushback last year when I said, I loved Chris Duarte. And everybody said, well, he's 23 or going on 24. You can't draft a player like that, really? If he had stayed healthy, he would have been in the running for rookie of the year

if he had stayed healthy during the course of the year with the way he started it. But anyway, go ahead. So you like the kid from Arizona. You like the kid from Kansas. Who else? Love him. This Dyson Daniels kid, you know, the international kids, I don't take a look at them until they come over here. I don't have time to YouTube.

I got enough of going on. Yeah, this kid Dyson Daniels, extremely intriguing for his size as a point guard. And he's talking defense. I asked him last week, I'm like, what translates right away? He said, my defense, on ball defense, off ball defense, keep an eye on him. The last one, Kevin I'll leave you with is Johnny Davis. Johnny Davis from Wisconsin Again, good size for his position

at the two guards. If you go back and look at the Wisconsin game at Purdue, he absolutely crushed Jayden Ivy. Again, 34 points in West Lafayette destroyed him. And he took it for friends, and Jayneyev didn't talk to him before the game,

and he was like, oh, we're going to hoop like that. So I like kids like that that take the lowest thing to get them motivated. So those are the kind of kids at 10 that I'm interested in. Yeah, I don't think he's going to be there, but I think Keegan Murray, another Big Ten guy, has a chance to be a really good player. And he's, you know, a bit of, you know, I don't want to call him a late developer because he just finished his sophomore year in Iowa. But really was a big surprise last year in the Big Ten after just, you know, an okay freshman year.

I don't think people saw stardom coming. But he just keeps getting bigger, stronger. He's long. You can do everything. I don't think he'll be there, though, at 10. Anyway, he will. I know you're in the middle of some stuff, so go ahead. I appreciate you making time for me.

We'll talk soon. Always, Kevin. Thanks so much, man. Have a great weekend. You too. Chris Miller, everybody. Always good to catch up with one of the nicest people in sports media, in any media in our town. Up next, 36 years ago tonight,

Len Bias was selected by the Boston Celtics. More on that, right after these, words from a few of our sponsors. The Boston Celtics select Len Bias at the University of Maryland. There he is. Len was sitting by

she is here with him. Len Byndy people think he may be the best athlete in the draft. That was 36 years ago tonight. The 1986 NBA draft Commissioner David Stern announcing Len

Bias is the number two overall pick to the Boston Celtics. The Celtics were the defending champions. I'll tell you, the 86 Celtics are debatably one of the greatest teams or one of the greatest championship teams of all time. And bias was set to join Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Danny Aange, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parrish and company with the Boston Celtics. But we know what happened two nights later and joining me right now. We've had both of these gentlemen on the show previously. Their podcast, Len Byas, a mixed legacy. Dave and Grady and Don Marcus are joining me right now. A couple of episodes left. You can get it anywhere you get a podcast on Apple like many of you are listening. They've done a great job. I've narrated some of it along the way.

and both of these gentlemen are back. I mean, we'll get into some of the things that we haven't talked about in your previous appearances on the podcast. But I got into guys a deep dive this morning a little bit on the show, on the radio show this morning, just talking about that 86 draft and just how tragic. I mean, Washburn was picked number three. Roy Tarpley was number seven.

You know, I think Chuck Person right now, who was the number four pick, I think he might be in jail right now because he was a part of, you know, the NCAA corruption scandal, the federal grand jury, which, you know, came back with bribery and conspiracy charges. I mean, we were all so excited about bias going to Boston. I'll start with you, Dave. What do you remember about that night? I remember the euphoria, the excitement primarily in the DNA and V. And he was a local kid and there was excitement in the Prince George's County community. There was excitement in the University of Maryland campus.

There were high level, understandably, expectations in Boston. As you mentioned before, he was going to the title winning team. And Celtics were thinking they're set for years. So the expectation that people felt for what Lent could do for basketball and how we could make the DMV area primarily Prince George's County proud. And then all of a sudden, you know, two days later, things change. And there's a, it's nightmarish in various levels for different people for the next couple decades. John?

Yeah, you know, what I remember is the anticipation of him going to the Celtics, because there was, you know, talk about how Red wanted him. And sadly, I wrote sort of an appreciation after he died. It would have been the perfect landing spot, not just from a basketball standpoint. But the one thing that Lynn struggled with, at least the one year I was on the beat, because I came his senior year to the Baltimore Sun to cover him, was he wasn't really comfortable in the brightest of spotlights, you know, and I don't know if it was just him just being difficult or just not being, you know,

you know, really understanding what the job, his job was with the media. But I said it was been the perfect place for him to go just from that standpoint because you had all these big personalities. And all he, you know, with Larry Bird and McCale and Dennis Johnson, and Danny Aange, and all he had to do was play ball. And that would have been so easy for him. That role, you know, probably as a six-man starting out, you know, in the Celtic tradition of the great six-men, if he had been in that role.

It would have been the perfect landing spot, and it would have been the continuation of a dynasty that had been to the finals that had just come off a championship, had been to the finals three times. year and that decade and it would have been the perfect landing spot and it all went away very quickly. You know, in looking back at the 86 draft, the other thing that really stood out is just how many ACC players were taken in the first round. I mean, Doherty was the first pick overall. Bias was the number two pick. Chris Washburn was the third pick. You had Johnny Dawkins, John Sally. You had five ACC players in the top 11.

You had Mark Allery picked in the first round. You had Mark Price picked towards the end of the first round as well. And just remembering, and I talked about this briefly on the radio show, and you guys obviously lived through it the way I did, the ACC in those early to mid-80s, my God, was it loaded? I mean, the 86 Maryland team, and this was Len Bias' senior season, they finished sixth in the league. I mean, they started off 0 in 6 and finished 6 and 8 on that team, and they ended up going to the second round and losing the UNLV in the second round of the tournament and actually had an eight-point lead in the second half to get to the Sweet 16. and I think a lot of us thought they had a chance to make a final four run.

They were the sixth best team in the ACC that year. God, it was great back then. I hate being the guy that just continually goes to back in the day, but man, was ACC basketball in the 80s. And as you guys, well, I'm sure note, everybody stayed for the most part for all four years too. I mean, that was biases senior year. Jordan went a year early,

but a few years earlier, and then that Ralph had stayed for four years. You know, Johnny, John Sally, who was a, he was part of the podcast early on, and then he narrated one of the last episodes on culture. You know, he talked about the fact that he, he met Len at five-star camp, and they were there with Johnny Dawkins, and they talked about all going to Maryland at the same time. and the difference was that, you know, Len was set, but Lefty wanted to,

lefty told John Sally he'd have to sit behind Ben Coleman, and Johnny Dawkins had a starting role for him at Duke waiting for him, because they were sort of in the midst of this rebuild that led to their dynasty with Dawkins and Allery and Tommy Amhery, and those guys. So, you know, you talk, I had just come from covering the Big East, which was, you know, talking about 1985 when they played three games, you know, and then I, you know, I didn't know, I mean, I, I knew, I mean, I covered a little bit of the, you know, covered

Carolina's first Final Four, Final, and, TIA Championship, 82. That was my first Final Four. So I was certainly aware of the ACC, but when you got there and covered it, And it was, you know, and it wasn't just then. It went on for a good, you know, 10, 15 years more of that before the one and done started and things like that, where it was in the, you know, great basketball every night. Yeah, incredible those days. And I'm just looking, you know, at that 86 season, you know, it was biased his second straight

ACC player of the year season. He was the player of the year. Johnny Dawkins was the tournament MVP. Maryland, if you remember, went in on a roll into that ACC tournament. Beat North Carolina for a second time. I mean, everybody always focuses on the game in the Dean Dome when Bias stole the inbound's pass and dunked over his head and they came back and they beat Carolina in overtime for the Heels first, Dean's first loss in the Dean Dome. But they ran Carolina out of the the building in the ACC quarterfinals. And then Georgia Tech, you know, with Dwayne Farrell and Mark Price and Bruce Dahl Ripple, that team, Maryland had them on the ropes in the semis.

And I think Gatlin threw the inbound pass away, and Farrell had to dunk basically at the buzzer to win. But it was just every night back then, you know, every single night there was a war. in that league. It was incredible to think about that Maryland was 0 and 6 in that league and ended up, you know, potentially as a final four contender. So, all right, enough of that. Oh, by the way, you mentioned the Dawkins and the Sally stuff. Did you guys see recently Alan Iverson? He was on, I'm forgetting whose podcast it was on right now. And he said that where he He wanted really to go to school, was he wanted to follow Joe Smith to Maryland?

But remember, he was in trouble, and people were steering clear of him, and then it was Thompson, you know, who was convinced by Alan Iverson's mother to take him at Georgetown. But did you hear that Iverson said that really his first choice, basketball-wise, because he could have played football in a lot of places, too, was to follow Joe Smith and play at Maryland? I had not heard that. Yeah, but I know that they played on the same AAU team down in the Tidewater area. And that's sort of how Maryland found Joe Smith was they weren't scouting Iverson. They were scouting a guy named Ed Gett who went to North Carolina. It didn't have much, you know, didn't have great career there. But that didn't surprise me because Iverson, you know, played with Joe.

And, you know, it certainly would have been interesting. But, you know, given what had happened a few years before with bias, I'm not sure Maryland would have gone forward with that, with all the trouble that Alan was in at that point. Yeah, he said, and I'm looking it up right now, because it was the Dan Patrick show, which is where he was having the conversation. He said that he wanted to go to Notre Dame to play football. That was really where he wanted to go.

And then when Joe Smith went to Maryland, he wanted to go to Maryland to play basketball, but that his favorite player in college basketball at the time was Bobby Hurley. So Duke was a possibility for him too, which I thought was interesting. All right. The podcast has been phenomenal so far. So, you know, we've covered some things along the way about the podcast, but I wanted to sort of, you know, focus on the aftermath.

and what happened from a sociological standpoint, from a legal standpoint, in the wake of Len Bias's death, with a lot of the, you know, say no, you know, just say no, which was the Nancy Reagan's slogan during the time, which really came off of Len's death, and then a lot of very, very harsh laws that went into place following his, death that really impacted especially lower income, the lower income demographics. So Dave, why don't you get started and tell us about sort of the legacy of Len's death with respect to that part of the conversation? Well, Kevin, if we're going to focus on his legacy related to drugs and social justice, his death escalated the war on drugs in the 80s.

The Reagan administration, with the help of Nancy Reagan, promoted. the campaign. And even deeper than that, politically, one of my favorite documentaries, perhaps the favorite documentary, is one called The Two Escobars. It was a 30 for 30. I don't know if you've seen it. I have, yeah. And there is a reference to lend bias in that documentary by a gentleman named Tom Cash,

who we talked to in our podcast series. Tom was a federal agent whose main task was to. police drugs coming into this country. And his comment was, it related to Pablo Escobar, was that the death of bias not only changed, it not only changed the way cocaine was perceived in this country, socially, politically, but also how the government, in a sense, changed it, the way it was going to try to shut South Pablo Escobar and his cocaine operation in Colombia, which is really just fascinating. So, as we've said before on your show and in other places, Lend's legacy, the tentacles are just so widespread

to sort of update what's happening with the war on drugs legacy part and the anti-drug abuse act that was passed directly related to his death. Congress, within four months passed it after Lend died. And we go into the details in the podcast about this. But basically what it did was an established a 100 to one disparity between crack cocaine and powder cocaine. If you had 100 grams of powder cocaine and I'm sorry. Yeah, it was really 500 to 5. It was a 100 to 1 disparity. As an example, if you had 500 grams of powder cocaine and 5 grams of crack cocaine,

you received the same mandatory minimum sentence of five years. and not just using it, but you didn't have to touch it. If you were involved in a cocaine conspiracy, you would receive the same sentence. Let's move forward more than 30 years. Congress is very close to passing what's called the Equal Act. In 2010, Congress and Obama passed the Fair Sentencing Act, which reduced the disparity to 18 to 1. and it reduced a lot of sentence.

People who have been languishing in prison, mostly young black men and women from the 90s, 80s and 90s who have been in prison for 23rd years for these ridiculous crimes, the heavy sentences. That was reduced to 18 to 1 by the Fair Sentencing Act. Now, the Equal Act is very close. It's getting momentum to being passed. It would wipe out the disparity.

Within the last week or so, I've been reading about where 10 Republican senators, have come on board with it, including Rand Paul, who was very conservative, which would avoid the filibuster. But it hasn't come to the floor yet. I don't know why. I haven't been able to pinpoint why it hasn't come to a vote yet, but it's Chuck Schumerer has said he wanted to pass, and they seem to have the votes, but it just hasn't passed yet. So that's sort of a timely reference to all this, wrapping all that up on the legacy part related to drugs. And there's so much more that we can get into as well on the cultural aspect as well.

I want to ask you, though, in the moment, you know, following his death, you know, with this very anti-drug war on drugs, and even the things that went with it, like these five-year mandatory minimums that were obviously incredibly harsh, weren't they popular policies at the time among voters, or am I wrong about that? No, and Joe Biden played a pretty big role with the Senate Judiciary Committee on, he voted for it. He was a preparner of it then in the early 90s. He was part of the Judiciary Committee. He was the chairman, I think of the Judiciary Committee that helped pass more criminal laws

against minor drug crimes. So this went on for decades. it really wasn't until mid, mid, 2006, and 2007, soon after Obama came in, that it changed the momentum to let's pay more attention to this, and everything is changing the other way now, and we're close to wiping it out. Yeah, I just wanted to add, it was, you know, it was, they used biases death, the politicians, Democrats, even more than the Republicans at the time, used it as a political weapon. to try to get the house back in the, you know, and, you know, the black legislative caucus was behind it. You know, that was their way to try to get, you know, to beat Reagan. And, you know, the chief legal counsel. And Dave, give me the guy's name, Eric.

Oh, yeah. Eric, I'm cramping on this, too, but I'll remember as you start talking, I'll think of it. Yeah, he said it was the worst piece of like... Eric Sterling, I'm sorry, Eric Sterling. Eric Sterling, right. He was legal counsel to the Judiciary Committee. He said it was the worst piece of legislation he had ever written. That's what he called it, you know, for years later and for our podcast, we talked to him.

It was, it was, he was a political pawn. His death was used by politicians and continually, you know, really still to the day, you know, because of all these, all this debate about mandatory minimums and everything like that. It really, it's unbelievable how the death of a basketball player. And we talked to people who said if he had died, I don't know if we talked about it earlier with you, Kevin, but if he had been at the University of Missouri or the University of, you know, Texas or something, it might not have gotten the same attention, but because he was in the nation's capital, and Tip O'Neill was a season ticket holder for the Celtics, you know, had season tickets for the Celtics. He was a big Celtics fan.

They used Bias his death to, you know, they weaponized his death. Well, let's not forget, too, and I think we've mentioned this in previous conversations. A week or so later, Don Rogers, who was a safety for the Cleveland Browns, also dropped dead of a cocaine overdose. Now, his death did not get the same attention that Len Bias did. Bias was the first and Bias was a superstar. Don Rogers, by the way, was a good player and was a first round NFL pick a few years earlier. You know, I'm wondering the impact of biases cocaine-induced death on the actual number of people that age, older, younger, that decided that that was it for them as far as cocaine goes. Because I think, you know, being in school, being at the University of Maryland during those years, look, it was a crazy.

time being at a big state school in the mid-80s. You know, there was a lot of stuff going on. And I do remember very, it had a very profound effect on many people because you saw this super, you know, human-looking athlete that cocaine took down. What kind of impact did it have on the usage of cocaine after his death? We talk anecdotally quite a bit in the podcast series, and I address it in the book, people who never used it because of Lentzeth. I'll cite a couple, Keith Booth from the University of Maryland as a 14-year-old or so when Lendai. He said to convince him to never use drugs and he used that as motivation to work harder and be the great player that he was.

Shaquille O'Neal This is something that we didn't find out in suction And I found it online He was on a podcast recently where he talked about Len's death And when Len died His father told You got to hear the sound bite It's so funny

It's typical Shaquille You know dramatic But he said his father said If you ever touch cocaine I'll kill you So he said oh I guess I'm not going to use cocaine right So anecdotally, it's out there. There are statistics that cocaine use was reduced as a result of the lens next 10 years, especially among teenagers.

But the numbers weren't as dramatic as I thought they would. And I think a problem was that if you're addicted to cocaine, it doesn't really matter to a lot of people who are addicted to it. It was a very addictive drug. an example, Chris Washburn, who, when I asked him specifically, if Len's death impacted him at all, I said, no, I was addicted to cocaine. I still was going to, you know, for a day or so, I was like, oh, man, that's bad, but it didn't stop him from using it. So, but it did it, it did impact on a grander, on a larger scale, socially, the numbers went down among, among a lot of users.

And I don't know how that transferred past the 90s and the 2000s, but certainly to the mid-90s, numbers went down of cocaine. Yeah, I mean, anecdotally, from my standpoint, I mean, there were people that I knew that continued, but, you know, paused briefly and then continued, and then there were many people, and that would include me that never used it because of that. I, I drank a lot of beers at the Voo, a lot of $2 pitchers at the Vue back in the day, and certainly experimented with other things, but cocaine, I think a lot of people became terrified of it. The thought that you could use it once and be in superconditioned physically and drop dead

was terrifying to a lot of people, I think. Well, Kevin, I did try it as you. And if I quickly don't know if I made 80, I was, you know, it's almost similar in age to you. I'm in my early, early in the mid-20s. And you had a lot of parties. There's a lot of beer just cocaine. But I think I didn't like it. I tried it once.

And I didn't like it. It got me too hyper, and I was already hyper enough. But there was a, I'll use an anecdotal story. There was a very good friend of mine on the Maryland track team a year behind me and a very good runner. And I saw, he got addicted to the cocaine. And it really, it devastated. I mean, he lost his wife. He was lucky to be alive.

So I saw what it did to some people. and they did stop after Lenn died. They kept, if you're addicted, I think it was a different issue. I'm sorry, Don. Go ahead. No, it was a wake-up call for the NBA. You know, there were things in place. David Stern, who was legal counsel at that point in time, in like 1983 or 84,

had written some new, you know, anti-drug policy policy. into the collective bargaining agreement. But there was still a big issue. I mean, the year when died, John Lucas a few months before, passed out in a locker room. You know, they talk about the, they talk about the, they just finished a couple months ago. The, you know, the HBO winning time was about the 80s Lakers and Spencer Hayward, you know, and how this was prior to Lenz death,

but it really sort of, you know, after he died, they really, the NBA, and this is something we talked about in one of the later episodes, they had, they started their rookie orientation programs, and they actually brought in Lonez bias to talk to the, talk to the players about,

about her experience and what happened with her son. So there was a, there was a, off-Broadway, or the Today Show did it, a story that we mentioned in one of the episodes. And it was a play that was based loosely on bias's character. And the story wasn't exactly the same, but it was motivated by the death of one bias. So there were a lot of things that happened as a result of bias of death.

And, you know, to this day, there's a popular TV show that I've been watching for years called Snowfall. It's about the crack epidemic in South Central L.A. And the opening episode this past season was they had a reenactment of biases death in the suite in the in the dorm in Maryland and how it impacted the way police, you know, the policing of young black men out in L.A. So it really impacted a lot, you know, as Dave said, the tentacles. We're far-reaching and continued to, you know, 36 years later, continued to impact the world.

Yeah, next week. Kevin, if I can add to that, if I can answer that a little bit. Don mentioned this play. It's called Home Court. And not only was it featured on the Today Show, Brian Cumber was the host, but the NBA orientation program, program integrated it into their program for the working. So the play was performed as part of the program for years.

And according to the performers and the play, we talked to them for the podcast and the director and the actor who portrayed the character based on bias. It was tremendously received by the NBA players. So it went even deeper into the NBA than Don had mentioned. And so it had a really good impact, strong impact on the lead. You know, one of the episodes of your podcast, and again, you can get Lenn Bias, a mixed legacy produced, written by Dave and Grady and Don Marcus, of course, Don, Don, longtime columnist at the Baltimore Sun, was the, and we talked about it briefly, I think, the last time you were on. how does a family and how does a mother and father handle one death of a child, let alone two?

And I think, you know, you guys touched on on one of those episodes, just the story of Lenz Younger brother, Jay Bias, who was a pretty good basketball player himself. It's just, I mean, you talk about a world of family hurt for a mother that was so strong, too. I mean, she just was always an amazing woman, but Lens death really impacted his brother, and it's amazing to see that family what they've gone through. Well, we felt that was such an important part of his legacy that we dedicated one episode to the impact on the family. And I've mentioned this to Don many times when we reflect on that episode. I think one of the more emotional episodes is that one,

and especially talking about Jay, because we really portray that part of the story through his best friend, probably his best friend, Clint Venable, who was a very prominent player in the area. You want to stay titled Northwestern with Jay, played a Bowling Green, and Clint's memories and reflection on, Jay are very, very powerful.

He was in touch with Jay all the way. He went to junior college for a year, and his insight is very strong. And we were able to get a lot of comments from Lenise Baez, because she would not, we didn't approach them, as we mentioned before, for this podcast series. She didn't talk to us for the book. We thought it was not going to happen,

and hopefully we'll solve that down the road. But we were able to get an interview with Rock Newman that she did with Rock Newman on a broadcast of WHR TV. And it goes into detail about how it affected her on the family. And what I think is striking there is the contrast. Lenice Bias' reaction to Len's death was dramatically different than her reaction to J's. Lenn's death, she was very composed, very calm. She sort of sensed something was going to happen,

so it helped her deal with it better. And, and, and, but Jay said she admitted for three days nobody could talk to her. She was throwing stuff. She was in bed for three days. Leave me alone. And very just, just violently, violent reactions by her. But, but after three days, she had recovered from that. But that, I think, is emotionally more, probably the more powerful episode of the whole series, most powerful.

Dave, Don, thanks. always. Oh, I know you wanted to mention someone who was working on this podcast, and very tragically, earlier this month, died in a bicycle accident. I know that this young man, Enzo had been helping you out a lot on this podcast. It was actually about a year ago at this time. We worked with eight interns from the University of Maryland and one

from American University. And they were very helpful. We wanted to integrate interns into this process, especially for Maryland, because we thought it was important for that students they could get to understand the story better. Plus, I think they would have a deep interest in helping with this kind of a project

and just connecting the university to it because they've become more accepting of his legacy as well. There's a natural progression. About a year ago at this time, I got an email from who was entering his freshman year at Maryland. And if you've ever had an internship, they usually don't go to juniors and seniors. And he knew he couldn't get one. But it was a very well-written email by Enzo Alvarenga, from Chevy Chase, from the D.C. area.

And he knew we couldn't get credits, but he wanted to help out. and Enzo did some great work helping edit audio and video clips for not only the and preparing clips for the podcast itself but some promotions we did that are online on the GoGradie Media website a timeline of what happened

the reaction of Lensda. Top moments, his news moments for the next four or five months. He did a great job on that. And he was riding his bike on a sidewalk on George Sand Road, which you're familiar with Kevin. Anybody in the D.C. area probably is in Bethesda.

Against traffic, and it was a very narrow sidewalk. And he lost control of his bike and ended up on the road. And a van coming in the opposite direction hit him almost immediately, and it was, I guess, fortunately, in a sense, it was a quick result. I had talked to him the night before

because he said he was trying to get credits for this summer and we were trying to get it for him but he could not could not get the credits and typically of Enzo he said look I want to help anyway what can I do and we had mapped out a whole summer form and he was he was diligent he was respectful

he was yeah honest a great young man and I never met him because of COVID we did a lot of and Don met him through Zoom calls and phone calls as well

and it's certainly it's tragic but he left a great impression on us and and if I could sort of tag it this way I did go to the funeral service two weeks ago and met his mother and father and I mentioned to his mother who I was

and that Enzo helps us a lot. She goes, that's interesting. He never told us. He doesn't tell us many things. Oh, gosh. Yeah, well, he was an 18-year-old. Right. Of course, of course.

And that was his personality. He was very quiet. And she started crying a little bit. And then I walked over to her father, his father, and I said the same to him. And he said, with a smile on his face, Enzo was very proud of the work he did for you. which was pretty cool. Yeah.

Yeah. He's left an impression on us and hopefully he's been a better place. Sympathies, guys. I am sorry for your loss. It sounds like he was one hell of a young man. All right. Dave and Grady, Don Marcus, a mixed legacy, lend bias. It's a podcast you can get anywhere where you're getting a podcast right now.

I recommend it highly. Thanks. As always. We'll catch up soon. Thank you. All right. That is it for the show. Today, I'll be back on Monday.

Have a good weekend.