The Kevin Sheehan Show - Rivera Recap

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Kevin and Thom recapped Kevin's interview with Redskins' coach Ron Rivera yesterday on The Team 980. They also talked about the Alex Smith documentary to air tomorrow night on ESPN. Andy Dalton's release and the greatest sports movies of all time were part of the show today too. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yep, a sports fix Thursday, Tommy from home. Aaron's at home. He'll produce this thing when we get done with it and get it out via all channels. I did not do a show yesterday. Somebody said, that was a great interview with Rivera. Didn't give you the right to take the podcast off. Actually, You know, many of you know this. We've, you know, we've taken a day here and there. You know, last week leading up to the draft, we didn't take any days off. But Wednesday's usually the day where the least amount to talk about is going on. And I just felt like, I mean, I could have done the whole Rivera interview that I did on radio yesterday, but I just thought I'd save it for Tommy because I'd rather do it that way.

And so that's what we're going to do. But anyway. You don't have to explain yourself these, please. I can explain myself. I had a lot of people that tweeted me because basically what I did is I put out a tweet that said, no pod today, but here's a link to the interview that I did with Ron Rivera on radio this morning. Listen to it. And so whatever. I mean, that gave them Rivera Tommy spent 30 minutes with me. So that gave them 30 minutes of content if they hadn't heard it on the radio. You know, you and I say this all the time about the podcast that by the time we get to the podcast, sometimes three. three or four things have happened that weren't available for me on my radio show, that we can talk about, you know, but none of that happened yesterday. So I just decided to take the day off yesterday. There you go. By the way, we're late getting started today because I was almost back to my studio after going to get some coffee real quickly, and I get a text from my wife, Safeway's got paper towels

and toilet paper. And again, like I've posed this question to you in the past. It's like, my God, how life has changed. I had to drop what I was doing, you know, find my mask, walk into Safeway, and load up on the, you know, two per customer minimum of toilet paper and paper towels because she had just gotten it, you know, as well. And we were running low again on those items. It's rare these days that you see that in supermarkets.

And the other thing, Tommy, is people who are ordering through P-Pod and other, you know, online, you know, grocery shopping services in Amazon, a lot of times they're getting their deliveries without paper products, without toilet paper and paper towels. It's still at a minimum. Still at a minimum right now. Well, I tell I don't envy you because it's only me and my wife. And initially, back in March, we bought. uh... we bought a decent amount of paper products we didn't hoard it but we bought more than they normally would

and uh... just the other day my wife goes out and does the grocery shopping once a week had a giant nearby and uh... just the other day for the first time they had those paper products available and we stocked up again uh... not hoarded but stocked up yeah but we have not really experienced that

But in a house like you have with your sons and their girlfriends, and, I mean, the supply demands must be so much, the pressure must be so much greater for supplies. Well, I mean, again, we've said this in the past. I have it easy, you have it easy, compared to those families, younger families with young kids. because, you know, I was talking to, I was talking to a friend of mine the other night. Well, talk to Cooley, and it's a constant all-day challenge for him with their two little ones.

In fact, the other night, we, we, we, we, we FaceTimed, and, you know, and his daughter is adorable, and, you know, he's in the, they're in the midst of making homemade ice cream. Like, that was the project for the day, along with, like, an apple pie. Like, you've got to keep them busy. But another friend of mine who's got kids who are in high school and middle school, he said the biggest bullshit thing is this online from home. Because basically the parents have to be, especially with the younger kids, have to be somewhat involved in, you know, making sure that they're getting exactly what they're supposed to be getting online. And I said to him, I'm like, bullshit. I mean, they're much more tech savvy than you are.

And he's like, it's not really about that. It's like, you know, they get done with a lesson or whatever, and it's not exactly clear, and they don't have anybody to ask, and we end up getting involved in that. And I'll tell you what, Tommy, can you imagine, in addition to all that's going on, if you've got to sit there and also be your kid's teacher, like basically homeschooling? No, I can't. I can't. I can't. It basically sounds like a full-time job. I mean, one thing, it should envy. You should have a little. newfound respect for teachers.

Yes. It's a lot of profession out of this. But, yeah, like I said, if we had little kids, I'd have a $500 a month cable bill. Oh, yeah. I mean, I got the cable bill from last month. I mean, the on-demand purchases over the last month are just outrageous. You know, there's a couple things we want to get to today. Number one is I do want to go back for those of you that didn't hear the Rivera interview

that he did with me on radio and play for you a couple of key moments in it, or interesting moments anyway, that maybe we learned something, maybe we didn't, or maybe you just will enjoy how he sort of, you know, sort of expanded on some of the things he said in the past. I also want to get to, because you won't have a chance prior to tomorrow night, just to talk about the Alex Smith show that's going to come out tomorrow night. Some of the pictures that have been out there of his leg, I know we talked about it the other day, but I had Stefania Bell. She's the one that's essentially the reporter and the documentarian, if that's a word, on this Project 11, on the Alex Smith. I had her on the radio

show this morning. It's very interesting how close he was to dying. And by the way, Tommy, how much credit the Redskins team doctor essentially deserves for saving his life. So we'll get to that. You've got a column. You want to talk about great sports movies, et cetera. There was some news this morning right before we went on. Andy Dalton was released by the Bengals. And I think the real interesting thing here now is where he ends up. You know, will the Patriots, the Patriots will look certainly pretty damn smart if they, you know, sign them off waivers, you know, essentially, or sign him as a free agent rather than having to trade for him if this was, if this was a guy they were targeting. I've always liked Andy Dalton. Like, I think he's,

a good quarterback. I think, you know, the Patriots and Josh McDaniels, and I think it'd be the perfect fit. Now, I think they do like Jared Stidham, but, you know, he helped lead them to four playoffs in a row, four consecutive years. They went to the playoffs in 2012, 13, 14, and 15, I think it was. I think Andy Dalton's a good quarterback, and there's a place for him. I think he's a perfect fit for Belichick up in New England. I think he's a good quarterback as well, who you're right, took a franchise that is considered a bottom feeder to the playoff four times. He's got his problems.

He's got additions, you know, in terms of big games and interceptions. But, I mean, you're right. I mean, I don't know what Belichick is thinking, but it would, I'd be surprised. if Dalton doesn't wind up in a Patriots uniform. I mean, it's pretty remarkable. I mean, now that James Winston is off the market, it's not quite as attractive. But, you know, having a choice between Cam Newton,

Andy Dalton, and at one point, James Winston, that's some pretty good quarterbacking that was out there on the market. The James Winston contract in New Orleans is just incredible. $1.1 million is basically all he's going to earn. There's some incentives there if he actually ends up playing. I mean, it's so insignificant in terms of what he's earning compared to, you know, backup quarterbacks and low-level starters. Now, New Orleans didn't have a lot of cap space, and that's part of the issue with that. But I know that, and I've said this before on the podcast, and a lot of you are like, what are you watching? I like James Winston. I think James,

Winston one day is going to prove everybody wrong and be a really good starting quarterback in the NFL. And I understand he threw 30 interceptions last year. But maybe a year behind Drew Breeze with Sean Payton will be the answer. But I mean, Taysam Hill, he just signed to a two-year deal. He's making $8 million a year minimum. And you would think that maybe they thought that was the future going sort of Lamar Jackson when Drew Breeze retires. But I don't know. Maybe Winston ends up there. But back to Dalton for a moment, you know, there are a couple of things that are interesting. First of all, Ryan Finley, who they drafted last year at of NC State, is actually, to me, a really solid backup.

And I think he's going to be a good quarterback. Remember we saw him in the preseason game against the Redskins? And we were all like, oh, my God, that was the rookie quarterback. Well, he can – he took them apart. Yeah, yeah. He can play a little bit. But just for comparison purposes, no other reason. this isn't meant to be critical of Dwayne.

It's a reflection of really where the two organizations were, Cincinnati now and the Redskins last year. And I understand that Joe Burrow was the number one overall pick and Dwayne was the number 15 overall pick. I understand that there is a difference there, but it's top half of the first round. When you draft a top quarterback in the top half of the first round, you believe you're drafting your franchise quarterback. And as I've pointed out many times, in the last 10 years, when you draft somebody in the top half, half of the first round. He's starting in the first five weeks of the season, unless his name is Aaron Rogers or Patrick Mahomes, basically. And if the name isn't one of those two, it's somebody who didn't make it. But anyway, you know, they draft Joe Burrow and they cut Andy Dalton. The Redskins

draft Wayne Haskins a year ago, you know, after they've traded for Case Keenham and then they bring back Colt McCoy. And they have no intention of playing him. This is what you do when you spend a significant high draft choice and you're a bad franchise and a bad team. You turn it over to the guy. You say, go get them, pal. This is your team. You know, we're going to put some weapons around, you know, and they drafted T. Higgins in the second round, and they've got AJ Green. I know they've got a little bit more than what the Redskins had last year. That's totally fair. You know, that Dwayne would have been going out there with no weapons and a coach that didn't want them and all of that. All of that is true. My point.

is that Joe Burrow, this is the way most teams try to do it if they draft a quarterback that high. They've got the intention. The intention is they drafted him and he's going to play. He's going to play right away. Do you think that Dwayne would have been much farther along if he had gotten the ball right from the start? I mean, I felt that way last year. I didn't understand, especially after they started 0-4-0- and 5. didn't understand what they were doing. I still think it was stupid after the beginning of that season not to play him sooner. But, you know, there's a big difference. Yes, the answer to your question is, I do believe that. But I also, but I also am open to the possibility that because

it was so dysfunctional with Jay, that it could have been detrimental in some way, or maybe, you know, there wouldn't have been a lot gained out of it. But they should have all been on the same page, and they weren't, clearly. And that's why it's set up for the situation it's set up for. Cincinnati was 2 and 14 last year, you know, under a first year coach who isn't going anywhere, and they're all on the same page. We're drafting Joe Burrow and we're turning it over to him. You know, no one was against it. You know, so it, but I think if he had played, started more than seven games, it would have been helpful. Look, we saw the progress he made. He got better if that had started earlier.

On the other hand, if he played more games, he might have gotten hurt more. Yeah. He used to get hurt. Yeah, I mean, maybe. Who knows? It's possible. I mean. You know, little injuries here and there. Yeah, little injuries here. Maybe that ankle would have acted up.

By the way, just speaking of, Wayne Haskins. And we're going to play some of the Rivera stuff for you. And, you know, I mean, we both know and love Doc Walker so much. And there are days when Doc. My life coach. There are days when Doc on radio is just gold. And yesterday and sort of his reaction to some of the things Rivera had talked about and had said about Dwayne, Doc got on a role. And Doc basically he basically lectured Galdi on the following. He said, look, you and everybody else that's high on Dwayne, you can be high all you want.

And by the way, I'm high on Dwayne too. I think there's a chance for him. But he said, there is something that he hasn't yet gotten. And it is the, it's time to be serious, you know, grow up, be a leader, and take this thing over. And if he, in Doc essentially said, if he hasn't been listening to Rivera since the day, Rivera got here, it's not going to work out very well for Dwayne. This is a whole new group of people in. And Ron Rivera is a different breed than Jay Gruden or any of the others that were here. And if he's more interested in how many likes he gets on an Instagram post, rather than being

committed to the playbook, it's not going to last long. And then he said, if he keeps showing up to the games dressed like Mr. T, that ain't going to work either. And he said, because Ron ain't playing. That's not going to work. And remember when Ron Rivera scolded and kept Cam Newton off the team playing because he didn't have his tie on? And Doc basically said, that was a 15-1 MVP. He said, Dwayne has all the chances. And he said, I'm not suggesting that he's not going to grow into this role.

But he better be paying attention to Ron and not anybody else. else. He better be paying attention to what Ron is saying and make sure that he's ready to follow that lead to a T or he's not going to be, you know, NFL, not for long, baby. I think he will. Really? Yeah. Okay. Doc was really rough on him, but also encouraging, you know, the way Doc is.

Doc's like, he's got all the talent in the world. He's competitive as hell. and there's a lot there to like, but ultimately I think Doc sees in him some of the same thing. Sean Springs told me on radio a couple of weeks ago. If Dwayne isn't committed and if he doesn't know this thing better than anybody else does, there will be Trevor Lawrence talk by November. So, you know, I think what some of those guys see is they need to see him step up. Like by the way, Callahan said he did at the end of last year.

You know, Doc wasn't suggesting that he wouldn't do it, but he's like, this is a new breed. Rivera's a different cat altogether, and he's basically laid it out for you. Here's the trapdoor. Okay, let's say Rivera, it's hard on Dwayne. Comes down hard on him for some kind of foolish marketing, self-indulting, self-indulting. And Dwayne goes to his friend, Dan. and says, Dan, look, I mean, this is important to the team what I do. I'm the face of the franchise.

You know, people are going to show up to see me. You've got to straight, you got to talk to this coach. You've got to explain to them that, you know, we don't play in a vacuum, that this is a business. And I'm part of that business now. And by the way, if I don't play, my clothing line's going to suffer. And Dan said, it's okay, it's okay. I'll take care of it.

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Okay. Okay. I know it happened once before. I don't think it's going to happen again. Really? I don't think it's going to happen again. I think he learned.

I think he learned. The other guy never called him, Dan. I know. I understand that. I understand that. I'm telling you, I don't think that's going to happen again. First of all, I don't know that Dwayne is the same personality

or as presumptuous or as arrogant or as self-absorbed as RG3 was. You know, I don't believe that. Remember, you know, Dwayne Haskins had to compete for a job at Ohio State. You know, he had to compete and win a job and beat out guys to become what he became. Last year, he didn't come in, anointed. He came in with a coaching staff that didn't like him, didn't want him. It's been a different path for Dwayne. RG3 was never, ever presented with adversity from the time he was young until 2012 was over.

But this is a 20, how old is Dwayne? No, I think he's 22 now, isn't he? Okay. He's a 22-year-old kid who considers himself a friend, of the owner. How many other guys on that roster do you think consider themselves friends of the owner? I don't know, Tommy. I know what you're saying, and it's ridiculous if you believe that it can't happen so I concede that point. I'm just hoping that it doesn't happen. I know. I'm only bringing it up. I'm always bringing it up because of what Doc said.

Yeah. I mean, if Ron Rivera is a hard-ed, Wayne has a shoulder to cry on. And it's the biggest shoulder in the organization. We all know that the shoulder needs to turn away and say, sorry, he's your coach. You do what he says, period. You got an issue, family-related issue or a personal issue that I can help with. You need the plane for something. Whatever. But as far as football goes, that's the guy.

And hopefully he learned from that. hopefully he learned because it was not the way he handled it in 2012 and 2013, as we know. I would feel confident in betting with you that that conversation will never happen. Which one? The one that I just brought up. That will never happen. I'm not saying mine will, but that one will never happen. Well, I'm going to lean on Dwayne is a different guy.

and that he would know better, and that I also, I don't know that I agree with you. You know, you'd be hard pressed not to have learned from what happened in 2012 and 2013. You know, I mean, the proof is in the rest of RG3's career, Tommy. Snyder ruined it. Snyder derailed it. He enabled him, and he elevated him above the head coach. in the organization, and the one that got burned by it was, A, the organization, and B, the player. I get that, but the guy who you say may have learned from the RG-Tree saga.

Yeah. Grafted a player last year that was friends with his son that went to his son's high school. It wasn't friends with his son. He went to his son's high school. They weren't even the same age. They were friends. No, they were not friends. They've been described as friends.

I know. It described inaccurately. inaccurately. That doesn't mean they were best friends. Like four years apart. Equipances. Yeah, okay, that's better. Sure.

Okay, they were acquaintances. They drafted a quarterback that the coach and a lot of people in that building didn't want, but the owner wanted. I don't see that as a learning experience from the RG3 saga. I see that as the opposite. Right. Okay. You know, I shouldn't have even brought up. bringing this up. I shouldn't have even brought it up.

Well, you wanted to faunt over Doc, and Doc's my favorite guy. But I'm just saying the Hammer, the Ron Rivera Hammer, could bring some unintended consequences. Fair enough. Fair enough. You know what? I'm going to choose for now on April 30th, 2020, with the possibility that we don't even get an NFL season on time to just believe that nothing bad is going to happen for the foreseeable future. with the organization. Real quickly, just wanted to mention that you can rate us and review us on all of the podcast platforms. And I haven't asked you to do that in a while, but it would be helpful if you did it, you know, in the next week or so. Rate us wherever you can, regardless of where you're listening, whether it's Apple or Google Play or Stitcher or tune in, anywhere you've got a

chance to rate us. Obviously, rate us the highest level, please. And then if there's a place to write a quick review to tell, tune in, or whomever, how much you like the show, those things really, really help. That's what drives sort of the rankings on iTunes. They rank the podcasts, and we've been ranked many times in the past. But it's not contingent on the number of people listening. It's contingent on the ratings and reviews. So a lot of you have already rated and reviewed the show in the past, but if you could do it, it again and it allows you to do it again, that would really be helpful. This is so much fun to do,

and we're never going to stop doing it. I say that confidently because eventually the world's going to be back to normal, and we're going to have, you know, the revenue stream that we had before or back. But a lot of that rating and reviewing really helps us. So we appreciate you doing that. All right. So Ron Rivera was on the radio show with me yesterday, and I'm going to play a couple of the sound bites for you, and then Tommy and I will react a little bit. The first thing, and I'll sort of go in chronological order on how the conversation went. I did ask him about sort of how it went with Kyle Smith and whether or not Kyle Smith has done enough to get a general manager title. Here's what he said. I think so. He did a very good job. You know,

Going back and looking at the last previous three drafts, you know, the thing that I found really good, one of the things that really did, you know, did catch my attention and I think really help influence my decision was that the young guys that had been drafted in the last three years, some of the personal moves that were made in the last three years, really pointed to a group of young players getting an opportunity to starting to develop. You know, and that's probably the biggest thing because you want to see, first of all, that you've had success in the draft because that really does. impact your salary cap. And when you can develop your own and keep your own, you know, your, your head. So that's one of the things I thought was a really huge positive was, was the players that they had taken previously. So I was pretty excited about this group. And then again, seeing what we did, seeing how he handled things, watching him, you know,

do his thing was, was solid. I mean, he's got a good group of guys that work with him. They just some really positive things. So again, we'll sit down. We'll discuss everything. But I really did like his approach and I like the way he handled it. there's some discussion about him potentially getting a GM title. Are you ready to give him a GM title? Well, that's really not up to me. You know, that's something that Mr. Schneider's and I will talk about. And, you know, he has the ultimate say in the organization if it comes down to things like this.

You know, he's done a great job for us. I know we're very pleased. He's a young guy that's developing and growing. He's done a great job. So going forward, you know, again, as I said, that will be a thing that, you know, we'll sit down, we'll talk about, we'll discuss. And again, he's a very talented young person who's growing and learning. And we'll see.

Again, that's a little bit above me. So that's what he said about Kyle Smith and the possibility that he could become the GM and that it's above his pay grade. Go ahead. You react first. I will second. Well, you know, they haven't been that many general managers under Snyder. there's been two, right, technically?

Vinnie Serrano and Scott. I don't think Vinny was ever the general manager. Well, I think he was actually, but even if that wasn't his title, he was the de facto GM. I know that, but I don't think he had the actual title. I think he was a vice president. And I think the only ones with the actual title are McLuhan and Bruce Allen. And Bruce Allen had it initially. But Mike Shan had.

was supposedly making the personnel decisions. Look, that's the right answer by Ron Rivera, you know, that it is Snyder's call, obviously. And it's something that could happen before the season starts, I think, don't you? Yeah, by the way, I just looked it up. You're right. Vinnie's title was vice president of football operations, even though, you know, on his Wikipedia page, they said he served as the Redskins de facto general manager throughout the 2000s. I don't know. I mean, there have been multiple executives that have been the lead personnel people

in organizations that haven't had the GM title before, but that's neither here nor there. I think he said a couple of things that were interesting to me. Number one, you know, he called him a talented young person who's continuing to grow. You know, my sense of it is is that I'm not sure they feel like it's necessary right now to give him the title. He's the vice president of player personnel. He is, along with Ron Rivera, the co-lead personnel voice in the organization. What would be news would be... Ron Rivera could make news or the Redskins could make news if they went outside the organization

and hired a general manager. Not giving him the title isn't news. Hiring somebody and giving him that title, would be news. I don't know that they're going to give them the title, but I don't think it really matters. I don't think they're going to go outside the organization and hire somebody else. And up until maybe a month or a month and a half ago, there was a sense, according to a lot of football people, that Rivera was still thinking about going outside the organization after the draft. And I don't think he's thinking that anymore. As far as it being Snyder's decision,

you're right. That's probably the right answer. You know, as a fan, I would prefer to hear him as the coach-centric lead in this coach-centric organization. I think that maybe I would have preferred to have heard him say, you know, Kyle's doing a great job. I got a lot of things on my plate right now. Right now, he's, you know, are growing, young, smart. I've been really impressed. That's a decision I'm going to make, you know, down the road. I would have liked to have heard him say it was going to be his decision,

but I don't care that he said it the way he said it. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. If they hire a GM from outside the organization, well, that tells you all you need to know. Is that Kyle Smith is good, but he's still young and growing, even though he's talented. Yeah, and listen, I think that Redskins fans who are probably at this point, since, you know, they're so gun-shy about success, are always looking for symbolism. What does this mean coming out of Redskins Park?

I mean, I think the Trent Williams trade, for a lot of Redskins fans, represented a symbolic idea that Ron Rivera does have some legitimate power in this organization, because I think most Redskins fans believe that this is a deal that Dan Snyder, on his own would not have made, whether it's true or not. I mean, I think that's the belief.

So the symbolism of the Trent Williams trade for Redskins fans, I think, was important. I think the symbolism of having someone in the organization who's, quote, a general manager, even if they don't have any other duties different than a vice president of football operations, I think it's an important symbolic move for Redskins fans. I think that Redskins fans would like to see somebody in the front office with the name General Manager. It means something to that. It may mean nothing in the building, but outside the building, I think it means something. It doesn't mean anything to me.

Okay. Well, you've got one foot in, one foot out. No, it doesn't mean anything to me. If the title remained vice president of player personnel, and it doesn't, didn't have GM attached to it. And there wasn't a GM. I'm fine with this setup. You know, one of the things that I think became clear during free agency and the draft, and by the way, I'm not going to like identify this or single it out as such a great thing for an organization. It's normal in most organizations. It just hasn't been normal in this one. And that is that everybody's

on the same page. At least that's the sense I get. You know, Ron Revere and Kyle Smith and Rob Rogers. They're all on the same page. Well, they haven't been for a few years running. Bruce had his own deal. Jay and the coaching staff over here, Kyle over here. And the one positive is that the Redskins at least, you know, from afar are operating like an NFL franchise, where, you know, the draft, the free agents they sign actually are free agents that the personnel people like, that the coaching staff like, that fit the scheme they're planning on running. And then the same thing with the draft. We've seen too often in years past, wow, Josh Norman. Well, he's his own corner and he doesn't fit the Redskins defense. We know what Jay Gruden said before last year

when he said, one of the things I'd like to see, and I'm paraphrasing, is we've got to get on the same page here, you know, personnel and the team and the coaching staff. And so I do, I do have a sense right now that they're all on the same page, and I'm fine with that. I don't need Kyle to have a GM title. I'm sure, you know... I wasn't talking about you. I am a fan. I know that. You said fans would be more comfortable with it. And I think they would generally. You're not one of them. How's that? Well, you know, you're right. I'm not one of them. And I guess I, I'm sure that some people would be fine with it. I don't think it's the number you think. And you didn't throw out a number. I'm just saying, it sounds like you think most Redskinned fans would prefer a general manager in the organization.

What I'm saying is I think they essentially have one in Kyle Smith. Okay. I disagree. I think the title means something, especially since most football teams have a general manager. Right. Most do. Most do. But some teams don't.

I know that. That's why I. And yet those people are perceived as the general managers. What's his face? Kevin, what's his face in Pittsburgh? for years, you know, whether it was for Cowher or for Tomlin, was the lead personnel guy in the organization. There was no general manager above him, Kevin Colbert. And then just recently, like in the last two, three years, they added general manager to his vice president of player personnel title.

I don't know that Steeleer fans ever had a problem with it. It was, you know, but in not every, I mean, most organizations have a GM, Tommy. I looked this up a while back. You're right. Some don't. I don't think it's a big deal. I personally don't. But anyway, we don't need to get hung up on that. Let me get to the next soundbite. The next one was about the culture. I basically asked him what it was like and what the challenge was like to inherit this kind of culture and the organization. And this is what he said. Well, I think the biggest thing, first of all, is you come in, you just don't start, you know, getting rid of people. You watch and you listen and you just look and see things and kind of try to figure it out as you go about it. You know, when I got to Carolina, you know, almost 10 seasons ago, that's the first thing I did. I kind of looked around and kind of listened and let people do their thing. And people tell you, people will tell you inadvertently they're going to say something that you're going to say, wow, this person deserves to be here.

Wow, you know what? it's time to make a move and let's move forward. And then, you know, when it comes down to the players, you've got to see, you know, these are the players that want to be here first and foremost. You've got to have guys that want to be part of what you're trying to do. You know, you've got to sit down and go through the evaluation process. And then as you get a chance to meet them and spend time with them,

you can find out if a guy who really, truly wants to. And if they don't, then it's time to change them. It's time to move on and go forward. It's just, it's an interesting thing because, you know, I've been fortunate, you know, being in North Carolina where we have a lot of military. I know we have a lot of military up here in D.C., which is exciting for me. And then talking with some of the soldiers, you know, you come to find that the military believes that it takes three to five years to change your culture. And the biggest thing that you have to do when you come out is you have to make sure everybody understands and everybody believes in your vision, the same vision. It can't be, you know, somebody's over here and believes this and somebody here.

Everybody has to believe in the same thing. So when I talk about trying to build a sustainable winning culture, the biggest thing that I want to make sure I share with everybody is what the vision is to get to the ultimate goal. And if guys can believe in that and buying that and be part of it, you know, then I'm excited. I'm fired up and I want them to be around. So, you know, what he didn't do there was, you know, talk about how bad. the culture was. He's talked forever since he got here about, you know, the culture's got to change. Dan Snyder, the day he was introduced, said, we have to change the culture. There's a direct

shot of Bruce Allen on that particular day on the Happy Thanksgiving Day. There were a couple of things in that answer that he said that I liked, and then one that I'm just going to sort of interpret to a certain degree. First of all, you know, when you come into a new organization in any business, and you're a lead guy, you're a CEO or you're a C-O. You know, there are plenty of guys that will, and I've seen it before, they just start firing everybody. You know, they basically took the board's direction, and the board said, you got to fire this guy, you've got to fire these people.

They just started firing everybody and started hiring new people. Well, his process has been different. Sure, he had to hire people because he had to fill out a coaching staff and part of his front office, and that's why you got this Carolina North movement, because he was going to hire, as many coaches do, people that he trusted, people that he's confident in, people that he's comfortable with, he's worked with before. But one of the things he sort of alluded to there is that nothing is going to be rushed for him. You know, nothing he needs to learn on his own.

And, you know, why would he take someone else's word in an organization about anybody or anything coming off a three and 13th? disaster. I think it's smart. You know, this, remember, Trent Williams was upset when Trent felt like he didn't reach out to him quickly enough, and Quentin Dunbar felt the same. Well, Ron's taken his time. Ron wants to find out, and by the way, we're going through an incredible thing right now where he doesn't have the everyday opportunity that he would have normally had to see people in the building, to get to know people in the building, to see and meet his players face to face. But I think that, you know, his idea was, I'm not going to come in with preconceived notions based on something that somebody tells me. I'm going to learn based on my personal interaction with these people.

And then with respect to the comment that he made about the military, it takes three to five years for a culture change. You know, some of you reached out to me yesterday and you said, three to five years. I thought he didn't have a three to five year plan. I think really what he's saying is it takes a while to change a culture. It doesn't mean that they won't get better on the field in the process. You know, this is the NFL. The NFL's designed for bad organizations to occasionally have a good season. We've talked about this before.

A good season does not make you a good organization. Good organizations have a culture that creates the environment for sustained winning with the enhanced chance to win year and year out. The Redskins have been one of the others. You know, they've been one of the teams that needed to hit an inside straight to have a good season. They weren't set up culture-wise or otherwise to have sustained success. And I think what he's saying is, you know, you've got to change the culture to create the opportunity to have sustained success. You know, he didn't say that we're going to stink for two years and in year three we're going to start getting it going.

I think he likes the talent on this team and he talked about it. But I think, you know, it takes more time to change a culture, Tommy, than it does a roster. Well, it does. You know, look, the fact that he said the culture needs to be changed, that his job is to change the culture, in a way, is a bash that the culture was bad. You know, so, I mean, if it was good, there would be no need to change it. So, but, you know, this idea that it's going to take him some time, and he wants to take his time and learn things, this is ridiculous.

You could spend 48 hours in that building and know exactly what's wrong with the culture. That's all. 48 hours top in that building. You've got to be a dummy if you spent two or three days inside that building in that organization and not realize how screwed up it. How many people do you think he trusts in that building from the previous regime besides Kyle Smith? Well, I mean, most of them are gone, or a lot of them are gone. No, I mean, period.

Business side. I have no idea. Right. Well, if it were me, it'd be nobody. And I'm figuring that Ron Rivera is at least as smart as I am to recognize that this was a screwed up place, and he didn't need a three-month lesson to figure that out. It's not, I mean, I'm not buying it. We're talking about two different things.

obviously everybody in the NFL knew this place was screwed up. He knew that without ever having to show up. The point that he was making, essentially, I believe, is that he needed to find out specifically who is worth keeping and who isn't. Now, what you have suggested is what I've seen a lot of times. I've seen that in business before. You know, a board of directors fires a CEO, brings in a new one, and it's like the, you Before he ever sets foot or day one in the office, seven people are packing up their bags and moving out. Because the board said these are the people that are gone.

But his point was, why should I trust anybody here to tell me who should get fired and who shouldn't? I've got to learn that on my own specifically. But who would he fire? What do you mean? I mean, who would he? He got rid of all the coaches. Well, I'm talking about players, too. I'm talking about releasing players or signing players.

Remember, he said over and over again, too, that, you know, he wasn't about to give anybody a new contract and somebody that's already under contract until he had a chance to get to know him. Right. And I don't think this would have made any difference with Trent Williams one way or the other. But we both agreed that the first thing that we thought he should have done, one of the first things, is to reach out to Trent Williams

and even have a face-to-face with him. I mean, a minute he got the job. I think he should have done the same. I think the Quentin Dunbar fiasco could have been, you know, could have not happened if he had reached out to him early and basically talked to him or met with him, which I'd say, I would expect a coach to do who was hired on a new team. It's just what I would expect one of the first thing the coaches would do

was to actually go, actually, fly. actually flies to different places and meet with the guys he thinks they're going to be important to the team. I mean, you know, he didn't do that, and I think that was a misstep on his part. Tread Williams at Wonder made any difference. He was going. But Clinton Dunbar is a good player. And I think that whole thing could have been avoided with some early conversation.

Yeah, I actually feel differently about him. I feel like the Trent Williams thing, you know, potentially could have been saved by an early reach-out. And I did say that at the time, and I haven't changed my mind. I mean, even based on his answer, I think that, you know, one of the things, it's not like he's coming into a new industry. You know, he coached an NFL team. He knows how good Trent Williams is. He knows from afar that Trent Williams held out. and there are reasons for it.

And yes, I think that absolutely I would have made a call to a seven-time pro-bowl player at a very important position to say, hey, I want to sit down with you at some point really soon and find out what the hell is going on from your perspective. And you can hear me out in terms of what I'm planning on doing. And he didn't do that. And I don't know why he didn't do that. I didn't ask him about that. We got into Trent Williams a little bit later on,

and you'll hear what he said. But, you know, he wasn't about to, regardless of what Trent Williams said, give Trent a new contract until he had an opportunity to work with him for a while. I think that's clear. Same thing with Dunbar. You know, they didn't give anybody. They didn't restructure anybody. They didn't extend anybody.

They didn't resign anybody until, you know, that was under contract until he has a chance to spend some time with him. Anyway, the next thing was on Dwayne Haskins. So, Tommy, I asked him, my question was, you know, when a quarterback gets drafted in the top half of the first round like Dwayne does, you know, there are expectations that that quarterback is going to become a franchise quarterback. Is that how you see Dwayne? Here's what he said. Well, I do see coming into this situation right now, finding out about Dwayne. Okay, and the biggest thing that I've learned so far in my conversations with Dwayne is he wants to. Okay, now we've got to go ahead and put it to work. We've got to apply all the things that we've done in the past and put it to work.

That was exciting about, you know, having Scott Turner as our offensive coordinator. Scott was part of the group that when we went into Carolina, we had a plan and how to develop Cam News. And so when I sat down with Scott and interviewed him and talked to him, we talked about that plan, that very idea of taking a young guy and trying to develop them. And we pretty much had the blueprint because we did it with Cam Newton. And then sat down with Kenny Zampeze, our quarterback coach, who's got a pretty good background with young quarterbacks as well. Most notably he was with Baker Mayfield, Baker Mayfield's rookie year in Cleveland. And so we talked about the plan that they used. and we kind of looked at and said, you know, we could take those two ideas,

sets of ideas and kind of put them together and put them to work with Duane to see how it goes. And, you know, we brought Kyle Allen and a guy that's been part of what we've done in the past, a solid young man, a good person, a guy that'll be good for that room as well to help and help us develop and compete and help push Duane quite honestly. And I think that's what you have to do. You've got to challenge each other. You've got to push each other. Nothing's given, you know, nothing's given.

everything's going to be earned. And that's one of the models going into this year is earn the right. And that's one of the things that we most certainly will harp on with our players is they've got to earn the right to be part of what we're trying to do. When you watched his games last year, you know, and you coached one against him, but I loved when you mentioned the Detroit game. And I don't know, it was a month ago or something. And the way he competed and delivered in clutch time. You know, he didn't have a great game statistically, but with the game on the line, he delivered. delivered. What did you like about what you saw on tape and what, you know, is there anything that you've seen that concerns you? Well, you know, as we were, as I was going through it and watching the tape, and you know, I had a nice period of time from the beginning of December

all the way through until when I took the job to watch every game he played in. Unfortunately, he didn't have to play the Dallas game, but I got to watch all those other ones. And the thing that I always went back to was when it was, you know, when it was the two-minute situations, when it was the hurry-up situation, when they got to have a situation, he seemed to show an exhibit a little bit more poised, you know, and things seemed to slow down. I'm not sure if it was because of the way that the plays were being called during those two-minute stints, or was it because everything just seems to come back to him? I thought they did a nice job with trying to game plan and use its strengths. I liked how they developed the, the,

the route combinations that he read through. His reads seemed to be very good. His delivery seemed to be good during those periods. And that's what I got excited about. But the thing that really did sell me on it was the Detroit game because it, honestly, it really did remind me of Cam Newton. And one of the things that we always said was that when things got frenetic, when things happened very quickly and it had to happen, he seemed to really be most comfortable.

And that's what I saw in DeWayno. I saw he had a level of comfort during that. And so that gives me some optimism going forward with them. Yeah, you know, I loved watching your teams, and this is the first chance we've had to talk. I always thought your teams were smart and tough, and I'll never forget that playoff game. Your last playoff game, the one in New Orleans when you guys were a wild card team and you were down a bunch, and all of a sudden, you know, you just sort of described it. You put it on Cam, and he got hot, and you guys nearly won the game in the Superdome.

there at the end and lost by five. And I forget what happened at the end, but he got you back into it. And that's sort of what, you know, some of us have seen in Dwayne. There's this competitive urgency, you know, in those situations that it's hard to teach. It's more innate, isn't it?

I think it is. And I think it's really, it goes back to the level of competition. He played, you know, all the way from high school through college to here. Sure. You know, he's always been that guy It's always been on a really good football team.

He's always been the quarterback on a really good football team. So he's got certain attributes that you're looking for in a guy. Now at this level, though, there's got to be a little bit more. There's got to be a little bit of that it factor. And that he has, and that's the thing that we've got to draw out of him. That's the thing that he's got to show more of is that it factor. And it's not that it factor where you know, where, and you can't get distracted by the things off the field. It's that it factor that when I walk into the room, everybody knows I'm there.

when I start taking my steps going forward, I got guys behind me. That's the thing that we have to have. I mean, with Cam Newton in the building, when he took a step, they were behind him. When he was on the field, they were behind him. When they were charging forward, they were coming right behind him. That's what we want to get from Duane. That's what we want to get from our quarterback. That's what we want to get from our middle lineback.

We want guys that when they start going forward, everybody gets in line. And, you know, I was very fortunate in Carolina that you get a Cam Newton. You get a Luke Keekely. Those guys had it. That's what we're trying to find with Dwayne. That's what we're trying to find with John, going forward, is that these guys are going to be guys that people will get behind. They'll fall in line and they'll go forward.

So, you know, I liked what he said about Dwayne Haskins. First of all, he's not given anything to him, but I think clearly one of the things, you know, that we hear about Haskins is that, you know, he likes some of what he's seen. He likes some of the things that as a, man, I've liked as well, the competitive urgency, the playing big in big moments. You know, that Detroit game was big to him.

And you'll hear him talk a little bit more about it when I followed up with a question about Snyder. But I think ultimately when it comes down to Dwayne Haskins, it's the thing that Gibbs said when I had him on radio about two months ago, and that is we're going to learn whether or not he's got that leadership, you know, Rivera talked about, you know, Cam and Keechley and the leaders when you're the quarterback and the middle linebacker. And you just, there is this sense that I have that he likes a lot of what he's seen. He believes that there's a chance, but that, you know, Dwayne's got to do, he's got to take that next step as a leader.

And, you know, he's got to take that next step in terms of commitment and preparation and all those things. And he didn't use those words, but I think that's sort of where he is. I think he believes that there's a chance on Dwayne becoming a really good quarterback. You know, it sounds like the more that he got to know, Dwayne Haskins, the more he liked him. So that's, I mean, if you're a Redskins fan, that's got to be a positive sign. I mean, you know, I mean, he had an image of him before he came here, obviously seeing him play. and as I understand, you know, I mean, I think he liked Wayne coming out of college as a quarterback. But, I mean, so far, so good.

And there hasn't been anything that he feels the need to talk about as a red flag. On the other hand, they haven't been doing anything. I mean, you know, everyone's sitting home. It's hard to basically set up. up those red flag when you're not in camp, when you're not in mini camp, when you're not in OTAs, when you're not in training camp. So I just say cautiously optimistic so far so good, the relationship between the two. And it could come down to what Ron Rivera thinks leadership is and what Dwayne Haskins

think leadership is. They may be two different things. Yeah, but they're going to have to. spend some time. I think the one thing to me that's clear is unless Dwayne really, really isn't the right guy in his mind's eye after spending some actual time with him in preparation for the season, Dwayne's got 20-20 to prove it. I really do believe that. Now, the next part of this is where I asked, I asked Ron Rivera about whether or not Dan Snyder. I'm trying to think of exactly what my question was.

Essentially, I asked him when he and Dan started to talk about this job, you know, what did he tell Dan about Dwayne? And did he sense it was important to him, Dan Snyder, that Ron Rivera, you know, thought highly of Dwayne Haskins. This is what he said. No. What he told me was evaluate the roster and go from there. He has put nothing on me to keep anybody, pull any, you know, bring people along. What he did was he put it on me to go out and evaluate. And I had time. And we didn't start until December. So, you know, I got ahead of ourselves. But when we were in December, you know, he and I talked and asked me, he asked me, he evaluate the roster. Tell me what you think. And so I broke down every player that I had a list that it was on tape. I broke those players down. I wrote up a report on everybody, and that was one of the things that he and I went through piece by piece. And we've talked about the players.

And the thing I told him that I was really impressed was the way he handled the two times the team had to score in the fourth quarter. He drove him down, they kicked a field goal to tie, drove him down and kicked a field goal to win. And in each one of those situations, he did something where he kept the play alive, whether it was he moved in the pocket, found the receiver downfield for the first down. The other time he moved in the pocket, had to scramble, go forward, took a big shot, got up, did the first down thing, got back in the huddle, and went down and scored, kicked the game winner. That was, again, like I said, one of the things that solved me on giving this young man an opportunity to develop, and that's what I told him.

Again, nothing was pushed on me. That's one thing I want everybody to understand. It was an opportunity for me to come in, evaluate, and decide. So that was pretty clear. I mean Rivera, you know, one of the things I sensed as he answered the question is he wanted everybody to know that he didn't have to commit to Dwayne to get the job, basically. You know, he made that very clear saying, you know, that Dan said, you know, come in, evaluate the roster and go from there. That Dwayne was not pushed on him by Dan at all. That it was an opportunity for him to come in, evaluate and decide on his own.

I believe him. With the way he said it and the way he said it so sort of definitively and emphatically, I believe that. I have no choice but to believe him. I mean, he seems like a believable guy. And I think what this does is validate the idea that Dan Snyder is not a lunatic.

He's just devious. You'd have to be a lunatic after what the Redskins had been through. And you had a chance to hire Ron Rivera. to dictate terms to him under any conditions. You know once you get him in the building, he works for you. And Snyder has done this before. And, again, you have to be a lunatic in the first four months of the guy on the job

to basically dictate terms to him as what he can and he can't do. That will come with time. That will come. We know he'll know. We know he's not a lunatic, but we also know how devious he is. And time is on Dan Snyder's side. All right. The last thing I wanted to get to was the stuff about Trent Williams that I asked him.

I'll play out the whole thing, including my follow-up question. But essentially, you know, started off by asking him why it was so hard to trade somebody of Trent's caliber. Because it was really about value. You know, we had set what we thought was the right type of value for who he is as a football player. It's a dynamic left tackle, a guy that's got good years left. And some of the teams we talked to knew that, but we weren't going to give him away, you know, in a yard sale. This is a guy that we just felt we deserved more for, and we held out for the right deal. We had a couple that fell through.

You know, there was a little too much give. we felt on our part to move him because of his value. I mean, again, he's a quality football player. But again, you know, when it's time, when it's time to make that move, we were going to hold on and make sure we got something worth it. You know, because, again, you just don't give away good players. That's just the way it is. But, you know, no matter what the situation or circumstances were,

how contentious they got, we were going to stick true to what we believe. And we tried and we tried and we waited and waited and we were going to be patient. You know, and that much we did. And when it was time to pull the trigger and make the move and, you know, send him on his way, we were able to do that. Without the context, though, Ron, what would he have been worth? I mean, this is a seven-time pro bowler. Without all of the baggage and the year-long confrontation and all of the other stuff, what would he have been worth? Well, I know this much.

There was an opportunity from what I was told that last year, during the just before the trade deadline, he was worth the first round pick. But for whatever reason, the deal was never done. But because he didn't play for the year, somehow that number changed. But again, he's still that kind of player. You know, he's still has that skill set. And he's a guy that's going to go, you know, go to San Francisco and should play well for them. But, you know, again, he's a guy that we moved from.

Looking forward to the guys that we have on our squad, a group of young guys that we believe are going to compete against these. other and the best guy's going to play for us. And that's just that simple. We're going to play the best players that help us win. So that last part where he said there was an opportunity last year before the trade deadline where he heard that, you know, he was worth a first round pick and for whatever reason the deal didn't get done. That got a lot of play yesterday that, you know, essentially people saying the Redskins were offered a first round pick, that that's what Ron Rivera said. I personally don't think he said that.

It wouldn't surprise me if he did mean that, but I don't think he did. That would be my lean. And I probably could have done a better job following up on it, but we were at the very end and we had to roll. But anyway, to make a long story short, here's the bottom line for about the 15th time. The Redskins never were interested in trading Trent Williams. Bruce Allen, first of all, initially thought that Trent would come back. And then when he wasn't coming back, it became very personal, very petty, and they weren't going to trade him. They were not going to give in. And it was the wrong thing to do for the future of the franchise.

And the fact that he wasn't made available and they didn't actively try to move him meant that you really never for sure determined what his value was. But just do this simple math. He's Trent Williams, a seven-time pro bowler at 31 years old. They would have gotten had they actively tried to trade them a first rounder or something approximating a first rounder, two seconds, or a second this year and a fourth and a second next year, or whatever. They would have gotten that. I'm convinced of it. Okay. Now, the reports out of Cleveland that the Browns were willing to give up a first before the trade deadline, I kind of believe those reports.

Now, if the Redskins and good reporters like Kime and Standig said, that's not what they heard, I believe them that that's not what they heard. It doesn't mean that that's not what they would have gotten. Two totally different things. I think Rivera understands that if this guy was made available and they had actively tried to trade him and told teams, hey, Trent Williams is available, they would have gotten a first round pick or something close to that. Whether or not, you know, he was specifically saying, hey,

I heard that they turned down a first round pick before the trade deadline. I think what he was saying was I heard that if they'd put them out there, they would have gotten a first round pick. But for whatever reason, they didn't do it. What they didn't do is they didn't make them available. They didn't make them available. You know, Eric Schaefer and Kyle Smith and Bruce Allen, just so everybody understands this and Tommy, I think you do,

it was in their best interest to make people believe that they weren't turning down something like a first round pick. They didn't want people to think that. And Bruce Allen wasn't turning anything down because he wasn't listening to anything. Did somebody call Eric Schaefer and say, hey, we're interested in him? We'll give you a second and a fourth to start off the conversation. And Schaefer say, Bruce isn't dealing him. And could Eric Schaefer then say, and I'm giving a hypothetical, we never got offered. a first. Well, they never made them available, period. But you guys all know as football fans,

Trent Williams was worth a first round pick, okay? Laramie Tunsell brought back two first rounders a second and two players. So anyway, that's my thought on that. And it got blown up into Ron Rivera really stuck it to Bruce Allen yesterday by admitting that the Redskins could have had a first round pick before the trade deadline. I don't know. that he admitted that, but I do think the Redskins could have had a first-round pick before the trade deadline or earlier. Okay, here's a hypothetical conversation that should have probably happened, but probably didn't.

Ron Rivera to Dan Snyder, what the hell is wrong with you? Why didn't you trade this guy when he was worked a first guy? first round pick. Why didn't you trade him? Don't you think at some point a reasonable person would look to the owner and say, why didn't you trade Trent Williams before now, before we have to take a third and a fifth? Happy Thanksgiving. Yes. And what's the owner going to say? Well, it wasn't me. It was Bruce. No doubt that's what he's going to say. You know, and then you say, him. What were you? Were you on your ship the whole season last year? On your little yacht? He was.

You know, you weren't paying attention? You mean you worked for Bruce? At Dan Snyder's culpability into Trent Williams' mess is right up there in a way with Bruce Allen. Because at any time, Dan Snyder could have said, we need to cut this guy loose and get what we can for him. He was in charge. You know, he's the owner. When he introduced Ron Rivera and he said, happy Thanksgiving, it's time for a culture change. Do you think he's taking any of the blame for not trading Trent Williams for all they could get when they should have traded him? You think he's taking any blame for not trading, you know, Kirk Cousins to San Francisco for a first round pick? I mean, look, I don't think he...

Do you think that Ron Rivera thinks that Dan Snyder was an idiot for not trading Trent Williams? Oh, definitely. Definitely. Now, I don't know that he had that conversation with Dan, that you just played out. But I don't think there's any question that Ron Rivera and probably a lot of people around the league, after they saw what San Francisco had to pay for Trent Williams, they all probably are like, you, I mean, this organization last year, how freaking stupid could you be? because here's the other part of it. And Ron sort of suggested this, that once you got past that point, you know, as time passed and he only had a year left, and you got closer to the draft, we know, where there were a bunch of left tackles, you know, the value was diminishing. It wasn't increasing.

And, you know, it's the same thing. Look, I mean, this is what we all hope as Redskin fans, I hope. I hope those days are in the rear view. They probably aren't. but I hope they are. I think Ron Rivera is a smart guy. I think he's respected. I put it this way.

I don't think Trent Williams would have done what he did. I think he would have wanted to play for the organization, had Ron Rivera been in it. I think, you know, it's the same reason. We talked about this the other day, I think. At the end of the day, when you lose quality people and quality players like Kirk Cousins and Trent Williams because they don't want to play for you, And now in Kirk's case, I think most of you understand, they never gave them an opportunity to play for them.

They never made them an offer that was worth accepting. But at some point, you've got to look yourself in the mirror and say, maybe it's us. You know, when good people don't want to work for you, when high producers, high-end producers don't want to work for you, more times than not, it's you, not them. And they never thought it was them. They always thought it was, you know, Kirk. They always thought it was Trent. So I don't think it would have ever happened with Ron Rivera here. It may not have, but you're right.

It's a good thing that that's in the past and that's behind us. Okay. You think Dan Snyder, you think Dan Snyder at one point has said to himself, boy, nobody wants to play for us. Maybe it's me. He hasn't said, no, I don't think he's ever said that. I think that's been part of the problem. is that it's never...

And I don't think he's saying it today. I don't think he said it two months ago, and I don't think he's saying it three months from now or four months from now, when the next Redskins controversy hits the fan. I think that it's always with him. It was always, and it always has been somebody else's fault. This last couple of years was Bruce's fault.

You know, not his, Bruce's fault. He's the owner, but it was Bruce's fault. He gave Bruce too much power, and nobody liked Bruce, and Bruce made bad decisions. Bad, bad Bruce. But you're right. It requires looking in the mirror and admitting that, I don't think that at this point in his life, that that's ever going to happen. I think when you own something, when you're the last say, you can always say, oh man, I should never have hired that asshole. I mean, that guy really screwed up, you know, screwed up the organization. I got to bring, I got to fire him and get somebody else in here.

And it's just happened too many times over a 20-year period. All of us understand where the buck stops and all of this. But I agree with you. I don't think that he will ever think that it's him. I don't think that, yeah. As an aside, as an aside, are we done with the Ron Rivera, Jeff? Yeah, we're done with it. That was the last thing I was going to play. Okay, that was a good interview.

Well, there's a lot more to it, so if people haven't listened, you know, I tweeted it out yesterday. He talks a lot about some of the draft choices, Chase Young and Antonio Gibson, and talks about the front four and the talent that he likes and, you know, and several other things. But anyway, go ahead. Now, when it was Dan Snyder and Vinnie Serrado, Vinny was his racquetball partner and his, his, his imaginary friend who would hang around with him.

And then there was Bruce Allen, who came with the, came with the credentials of actually being, having a football name, was his, uh, was his, his putt putt buddy in the office and his drinking buddy.

Right. And his imaginary friend. And now he's gone. So for 20 years, Dan Snyder had an imaginary friend in that building. Well, not to mention Larry Hess, who was in the building for all those years, too, and he was close with Hess. Okay.

So who is it now? I don't know, Tom. Who is power? Do you think that's not important? I think it's very important to know whoever that is right now in the organization has some level of power. We know it's not Ron Rivera. Ron Rivera is not yucking it up with Dan Snyder,

unless he's taking a ride on his yacht. Well, he did. In January, he was on that boat for a few days. I know. I know. I don't know. You're right. You should find out who it is.

Look, I mean, I have heard stories, you know. And when you say imaginary friend, I think that's harsh, okay, because I think the people that have hung out with him in the past have enjoyed hanging out with him. and there have been, you know, some perks probably to hanging out with him. But I know what you're saying. And I think because perhaps maybe socially, you know, maybe he's a bit odd, you know, or different socially that having sort of a wingman has been something that he's really needed and enjoyed over the years. and that more likely than not, he's going to find somebody else to be that person.

You know, probably. I don't know who that is. I would guess you're right. It's not Ron Rivera. You know, that would be my guess, too. I don't know who it will be. You know, he's, look, he's pushed your books. I mean, maybe he should call you.

You would love to, I'm sure, go to, you know, spend some time in the south of France on the Amalfi Coast on his boat. You would love that. I've said a couple of times that all he needs to do is shut me up is start taking care of me. Just bring me in. Let me ride the yacht a few times, you know. Let me share some of those Cuban cigars with them. And I'm in. I'm in the Dan Snyder camp, baby.

You know what's so funny is that, and I, Cooley and I've talked about this a lot over the years. It's like I don't think anybody. You know, well, Bruce definitely, Bruce seemed to have more real power than anybody's ever had with Snyder as the owner. You know, Vinny didn't have real power. Vinny did what Dan wanted him to do. And when Dan, when that got old, he, you know, and remember, Cooley's explained this many times that Bruce was actually Dan's attempt at being a good owner,

that he hired a person that was perceived and respected, perceived as a football. guy or an administrator, you know, and an organization, you know, head. And that didn't work for all the reasons that we've listed over the years. But I don't know who that, where was I going with this? I don't even know where I was going with this. I got sidetracked. The bottom line is, I got there a little flummox here. The bottom line is he needs, oh, what I was going to say is, you know who would have been great by his side all these years? A combination of Tom Leverro and Kevin Sheehan. We would have kept this thing going the right way.

Because first of all, we would have absolutely not cared about anything and said, nah, that's not the right way to do it. And we would have explained in our own way why it didn't make sense. Now, the problem with that is ultimately we would have been boomed a week. into it. A week into the relationship, we'd have been out of there. Yeah, because the surest way to get kicked out of the circle is to tell the owner no. Yeah. Although, you know, I think that's part of the problem over the years, right? I mean, nobody, he's gotten bad advice. He's gotten bad advice. I mean, I understand the decision-making,

and ultimately it's his, and he's got to make better decisions and hiring the better people to help them make better decisions, but it's been, I mean, in 2009, we didn't think there was any way it could get worse. And you know what, it did. It did. It did. It got more mean-spirited. You know, there were things that they did that made sense more so than they did in the first 10 years, but it got so, so petty and so small-minded. You know, the fights. that they picked and the things that they leaked to various media people about guys like Scott McLuhan. I mean, it really turned ugly. Ron Rivera does not appear to be, you know, have any of those, you know, qualities that have been around Dan the last 20 years. I'm hopeful of that. Gibbs

didn't either, but Vinny was still in the building. Anyway, what else do we have today? Oh, I wanted to mention, so tomorrow night, this Project 11 on Alex Smith's rehab and recovery from the injury, I had that Stefania Bell. A lot of you may know her if you're a fantasy football player. She's the ESPN injury expert. She's basically the reporter on all this. She's the one that did this. This is her documentary. She got with the Smith's in January of 2019, just a couple of months after Alex Smith had the injury in November of 2018. I'm going to watch it. I'm curious to see, and it sounds very interesting, but she was on with me, and I'm just going to share this one story with you. So basically, after the injury, it was Tuesday or Wednesday of the following week he was

in the hospital, and I may have my days mixed up. It could have been a couple of days later, later in the week. But at the point in which he was ready to come home, the Redskins team doctor, or one of them, Dr. Robin West, basically as he was getting ready to leave the hospital, you know, on crutches to come home and, you know, start the mending process, she said, I want you to stay in the hospital one more night. And the reason was, is he had a slightly elevated temperature. And she was just a bit concerned. And she said, it's not a big

deal. I just want you to stay one more night. I'd rather you go home tomorrow without the fever. And they listened to her, stayed in the hospital late that night. The fever spiked, blood pressure dropped. And Stefania Bell actually

basically said that if he had been allowed to go home, he would have been very much in danger. of losing his life. He was in the hospital. But the fact that he was already in the hospital and they were able to see it right away and get to it right away saved his life. Can you imagine in November?

It was Thanksgiving week, by the way, going into Thanksgiving week. Imagine that Alex Smith breaks his leg in a game and then gets an infection and dies. I mean, thank God for this Dr. Robin West. Like, Stefaniabelle essentially said that in many ways she saved his life and that they recognize that. They recognized that if they had left the hospital as planned, it would have been really dicey. And then it just got worse from there. He was severely infected.

They didn't know where the infection was coming from, you know, because the leg looked great. And obviously he's getting treated with major antibiotics. and, you know, he's basically being kept alive, you know, for a week almost. And then eventually, I guess the infection came from, you know, like a speck of grass that they weren't able to clean out from the wound, you know, because the bone broke through the skin. And at that point, that's where you're prone to a potential infection. But then, you know, 18 surgeries later, including, you know, moments where he had to decide whether or not to amputate his leg. Like there was, you know, a real decision to be made on whether or not, you know, he should keep his leg or battle on.

She also compared the injury to basically a wartime injury. The leg was shattered, like as if he, you know, stepped on a landmine, you know. and so on an explosive. And he went to San Antonio, a military hospital to get treated because this was such a unique injury. It was a soldier's injury. It wasn't an athlete's injury. But anyway, it was, she told the same story that everybody's been saying that, you know, he's been an incredible patient and his will to get better and to rehab this thing is unlike anything they've ever seen. scene. And she said, you know, she wouldn't count him out in terms of playing football again.

Do you think she's being kind with something like that? Well, you know, she said that he's been very inspired by some of the soldiers that he was in the hospital with down in San Antonio and saw these soldiers, you know, recover from injuries like his and go back to war, you know, and go back into the military and continue with their careers. and that that's been an inspiration to him. I mean, that makes sense to me, and at the same time, what also makes sense to me is that he doesn't have to go back to his career.

He is, you know, wealthy beyond belief. He doesn't need to work from a financial standpoint. He's also got a family with young kids, and I can't imagine that he would put himself at risk again. Look, if he came back and took one snap in a preseason game, Tommy, he'd be the NFL's comeback player of the year. You know, that's all he'd need. I don't think he's

going to come back. I would bet heavily against it, but I think this is all part of what's driven him is to get back to the point where he, if he wanted to, he could say yes, I'm capable of doing it. And even if he falls short, the process is going to, you know,

lead to him being so much better off than he's ever been. He was on with Scott last night on Sports Center, and Scott asked him, you know, about playing again. And, you know, he said it's step-by-step process and having that as a goal and yada, yada, yada. And then, you know, Scott said, my God, you're probably already, you know, beyond where you thought. And he said, every single day I get better, it's icing on the cake from where I was. Like this is being able to play with my kids and walk and, you know, and do those

things, you know, is more than at times we thought would be possible. You know, I'm rooting for him. I mean, he's such a nice guy. guy so well respected. He is, yeah. You know, I was at the stadium when this happened. It was such a horrible injury that we, I don't think we even really have an idea initially at how severe it really was going to turn out to be. And I mean, these things, we think things with these infections, I mean, it's a dicey situation.

I had a leg infection about 10, 12 years ago. that I was hospitalized for for eight days. I think I remember that. This was before we started doing the show. But I think I remember it anyway. It rings a bell. Were you doing work at the station at the time? Yeah, I was on the sports reporter.

Yeah, I think I remember. And none of the medicines were working. Yeah, I think Lynn had you dead, basically, within a week. Yeah, and basically, finally, you know, they used this IV, this medicine, and they told my wife, they said, you know, this is it. If this doesn't work, I mean, you know, legs are going to have to go. And fortunately, it worked, you know. I didn't know that, Tommy. Wow.

Yeah. What was the medicine? Do you remember? I don't even remember. But I had to stay on an IV when I went home for about a couple of weeks, too. You know, in addition, you know, IV in the hospital and I had to keep it when I was home. How did you get the infection? I don't know. Don't know.

You know, I used to walk around barefoot more around the house. And now I never do that. Well, what are your feet Oscar-winning, you know, material? Why don't you tweet out a picture of her feet? I bet they look just like your old man. I'll tell you, you know what, Tommy? I swear to God, since this thing started, I do not take off my shoes until I am approaching my bedroom now.

I walk around the house, you know, in shoes all the time. Not even flip-flops. You know, I got a pair of slip-on shoes that I really like, but I've also got other shoes, and I'm always in shoes now. I'm not picking up any of this virus via my toes. No, well, I mean, my feet never touched the ground anywhere. I mean, my bare feet, under any circumstances, except not even on the beach, actually. So I've been very careful about it.

You don't walk on the beach, you don't walk on the beach in bare feet? No, I usually wear my clog. I usually wear my clog. I don't, I think I don't wear socks. I was going to say, do you your socks with your clogs? No, no socks. don't look totally like I'm a shuffleboard player, you know? What color are your clogs?

Oh, I've got a blue pair and a black pair. I got two pairs. Listen, I'm telling you, your feet, take a good look at your feet, because I bet they look like what your old man's feet used to look like. And I bet you, when you were a kid, you used to see your old man walking around, man, man, my feet are never going to look like that, and I bet yours are exactly like that. I'm actually looking at my feet right now. I got pretty good-looking feet.

Okay, well, let's tweet them out. There's nothing wrong with my feet right now. Okay. I'm looking at my feet right now. Now, there are other parts of my body that don't look great right now. I would say that I got a few extra pounds on me midsection, but my feet, they look pretty good. Okay, well, I expect a tweet from you any minute now.

I'll just take a picture and text them to you. Okay. And then I'll tweet it out. Yeah, and then you'll tweet it out. What else? Do you see what Brett Favre? I don't want to talk about Brett Farr. Okay.

I don't want to talk about, I want to tell you about, I just want to mention the column I wrote this week. Oh, yeah, please go. The Washington Times finally succumb to the sports subject that you do when there's no sports to talk about, and they did a big takeout on the best sports movies ever made. Hoosiers? Well, mine was.

no, it's not either one. And I had to write a column about my favorite and what I thought the best one was, and it was the Hustler. Oh, the Hustler's such a great movie. Oh, yeah. I mean, because that, in essence, captures winning and losing and the pain of both. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's all about, you know, who's a winner, who's a loser, the price that Paul Newman pays. Fast-Dedy, Fast-Dedy.

Felsen. Yeah, Felsen, right. Fast-Eddy Felsen. And I just want to, I start off the column, reading this quote from the movie. And let me just read it to you, okay? Yep. When I'm going, when I am really going, I feel like a docky must feel like sitting on his horse, and he's got all that speed and power underneath him.

He's coming down the stretch, the pressure is on him, and he knows he just feels it. when to let go and how much, because he's got everything working for him, timing, touch. It's a great feeling, a real great feeling when you're right and you know you're right. All of a sudden, I've got oil in my arm. The pool cue is part of me. It's got nerves in it. It's a piece of wood and it's got nerves in it. The roll of those balls, you don't have to look.

You just know. You make shots like nobody has ever made before. You play that game in a way that nobody has ever played that game before. That, to me, is the best description of being in a dome I've ever heard. That feeling when you can't miss. I think that's the best description of it. And so that's why I just think that the hustler, wow, great movie, is overlooked as a sports movie because it deals with pool,

but it really deals with competition too and the price of winning and losing. Right. I love that movie. I mean, I don't really have, I don't know that I have a list of like, I just, you know, I've never really ranked them. I love Hoosiers. I've always loved Hoosiers. I think that whole movie is phenomenal.

The Natural, for whatever reason, the Natural's been on a lot recently. So is Rudy. Rudy's been on a lot recently. I think Rudy's not a great movie. Even though I liked the movie, I just didn't think it was well-acted. Bull Durham's great. Obviously the Rocky movies. What am I forgetting?

Caddyshack. Slapshot. Slapshot, yeah. That was never one of my favorites, and I've probably only seen it a couple of times. Rounders, would you consider that to be a sports movie? Yeah, absolutely. Hold on. Let me just pull up.

Let me pull up. Well, let me just read. One of the things I mentioned in the column is, you know, Jackie Gleason plays Minnesota Fats. Right. And then there was this real-life guy named Rudolph Wanderone who claimed to be Minnesota Fats. And he took the Minnesota Fats name as soon as the movie came out, and he claimed the movie was about him. And it wasn't. It wasn't about Minnesota Fats, but this guy stole the Fats character, and Minnesota Fats became a big star.

even had a TV show called Celebrity Billiards with Minnesota Fats. And remember that? I sort of do, yeah. Were you a pool player? Yeah, I was a pool player, not a good pool player. I should have been a good pool player, but I don't have a steady hand or a good eye, which you need both to be a really good pool player. But I can teach you how to be a good pool player if you've got the skills.

I mean, I spent a lot of time in pool rooms. so I know how to play pool. And there was his other. Willie Moscone was the greatest pool player who ever lived, 15 times straight pool world champion. And he was the technical advisor for the film. In 1978, on ABC Wide World of Sports, they had a pool showdown between Minnesota Fats and Willie Moscone.

20 million people watch that. Wow. Yes. On a Saturday afternoon, The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of Defeet. Yes. I just wanted to mention, you could find that column on the Washington Times.com slash sports. I found a list of ranking the greatest sports movies.

Actually, on this list, Hoosiers is number one. And we forgot an all-time great one, Raging Bulls, phenomenal, De Niro in that movie. You know, I would almost put boxing movies in a class by themselves. Okay. Because there's so many of them. And there are usually... There's so many baseball movies, too. Boxing movies are usually really good.

Wouldn't you say boxing and baseball are the two sports that have been... That there are more movies about, probably. Field of Dreams is two. I like Field of Dreams. Raging Bulls 3. Love Raging Bull. Rudy's 4. I don't think it deserves that.

Bullderm 5. Rocky 6. The Natural 7. Caddy Shack 8. Hoop Dreams. God, I remember when that came out. God, that's got to be 20 years ago now. This is a ridiculous list to put Caddy Shack A.

Slapshot. I mean, 8-10-out is the great sports. The Hustlers 12. Million-dollar babies 11. That's a good sports. That's a good box. I never saw the wrestler. Oh, yeah.

That's pretty good. With Mickey Rourke. With Mickey Rourke. Really good. Yeah. And, you know, football, there's not a lot of good football movies. Brian's Song. Brian's song, the original longest yard.

Yes. the original one with Bert Reynolds. Yeah, North Dallas 40. North Dallas 40 is outstanding, very underrated. Mack Davis, right, Tommy, Mac Davis? Yes. He played a Don Meredith-like figure in the movie, the quarterback, yeah. It was really, you know, the North Dallas 40, I mean, North Dallas 40,

but it really was like, you know, Tech Schramm and it was the Cowboys, basically. Yes, it was. Yeah, and Nick Nolte played Pete Jen. for all intents and purpose. The Cowboys receiver who wound up right in the book. Who was really, who really played more like Fred Bolitnikov, you know, with all the stick-um and that's what he played like. Well, remember the Titans is a very good movie.

That's a really good movie. That's a football movie with Denzo. Yeah, it is. Like, I didn't think any given Sunday, the Oliver. I agree with you. I didn't like it at all. But there are things I liked about it. I love Jim Brown yelling at players.

Right. I love seeing Marty on the sideline as a coach. Right, right. And Johnny United on the sideline as a coach. I love parts of it, but it's not a good movie. A league of their own. That's a good one. It's all right.

Blindside. The hurricane's excellent when Denzel's phenomenal in that movie. playing, who was it, Hurricane Carter, right? Yes, moving Carter. Bad News Bears. I told you about the theater that we snuck into see Jaws like a dozen times. We did the same thing with Blue News Bears at the same theater. Cinderella Man's a good movie.

I think Cinderella is a very underrated. Really good. Underrated, yes. You know, they mentioned Hoop Dreams. That's a documentary. Yeah, it's a documentary. Yeah. It's got to be 20 years.

I think the greatest sports documentary of all time is when we were king. Oh, when we were kings. I thought you were going to say the Ken Burns stuff. No, when we were king. I think it won an Oscar for best documentary the year came out. Tell you what, we're in the midst of watching a pretty damn good documentary. Yeah, and listen, when we were kings, I've always tried to track this down and haven't been able to, because over the years of covering sports, there have been at least maybe three or four times where different,

coaches have used that film to inspire their team. Right. They've showed that documentary before they went out and played. I know that Jim Leland did with the Florida Marlins when they played in the World Series. He actually brought Ali in to talk to the Marlins back in when that happened in 97. And I know that film has been used as an inspiration for other sports teams to compete a lot. That's it. That's it. I'm done too. Back tomorrow. Enjoy the day, everybody.