The Kevin Sheehan Show - Rivera Speaks & Long-Snapping In the NFL

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

Kevin opened the show with a few quick thoughts on Ron Rivera's presser today. Ryan Kuehl joined the show next. Ryan had a long NFL career in Washington, Cleveland, and with the NY Giants as a long-snapper before a career at Under Armour where he was responsible for signing Jordan Speith. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. A guest on the show today. His name is Ryan Keel. Ryan Keel will join me here momentarily.

Ryan was a longtime NFL long snapper. And then had a career at Under Armour where he was the guy responsible for signing Jordan Speath to Under Armour. He's had an incredible professional life. He's also a local guy. Went to Walt Whitman, my alma mater, played football with my younger brother, went to UVA and played for Norv Turner, one of the first teams he played for in the NFL with Norv Turner in the mid-90s. Ryan Keel will be our guest here momentarily. As is the case often after the radio show, there is stuff that breaks or news that comes out.

And on this particular day, Ron Rivera held a press conference. And I will have an opportunity to go back and listen to it in more detail and have more on it with Tommy tomorrow on the podcast and much more on the radio show. By the way, real quickly on the radio show, subscribe, please, if you haven't. Really helps us, doesn't cost you a thing. Rate us, review us if you haven't done that as well. Ron Rivera said several things today that I thought were interesting. First of all, as it relates to the whole investigation and the Beth Wilkins and stuff, he basically said, this has nothing to do with me and didn't have any comments on it.

Alex Smith, he was asked about Alex Smith and the GQ interview, and he admits and said, I didn't disagree with anything that Alex said. I was scared to death to play him, which is what we sort of talked about. What Alex Smith said in GQ, duh, any team wasn't going to plan on having him back. Any team was going to be surprised that he was cleared to play football. Any team was going to make plans to move forward without him. And then any team, specifically this one, was going to be scared to death about putting them back out onto the field.

Some real honesty there from Ron Rivera. About cap space. He said, we got a lot of cap space, but we're focused on locking up our own guys, too, in addition to looking outside. And then on the quarterback, Ron Rivera said, look, we've got time. We're going to be exploring all options. We don't have any answers right now, but we are, quote, out there, closed quote. They're still looking.

They're still looking for a quarterback. By the way, he was asked specifically about Cam Newton, and he said, look, I can't talk about specific names because free agency hasn't started yet. He was also asked about how Landon Collins was progressing, and he said, well, we'll need to see. I think that's a very interesting player to watch over the next couple of months. I don't know that they aren't convinced at this point that Cameron Curles a better, cheaper answer. They lose a little cap space in releasing him. Would be very hard to trade him coming off an Achilles injury with that contract. but I think the Landon Collins situation is an interesting one.

And I will point out that I think I'm in the minority on this, but I didn't think he was terrible last year, like many of you did. I thought there were moments where Landon Collins looked like he was going to be a good fit for Jack Del Rio and Ron Rivera's defense. But anyway, all right, that's it on that front. A guest, Ryan Keel, right after this word from one of our sponsors. All right, joining me now. on the podcast is actually, you know, a friend, a family friend from way back in the day,

a former NFLer with multiple teams, including the Washington football team, a longtime NFL long-snapper, which I think is a very interesting niche in career. But Ryan Keel grew up in Bethesdo, attended Walt Whitman High School, went to UVA, played at UVA, and then played for the Niners, the skins, the Browns and the Giants in a long NFL career. And then is one of the guys responsible for signing Jordan Speath to an Under Armour deal. So you've got a lot of life and experience, professional experience. One of my favorite things, though, Ryan, is I pulled your Wikipedia page up.

And clearly Andy Ikeberg's had some sort of influence on your early years where it says, Keel attended Walt Whitman High School in Bethesda, Maryland, where he was a prep-all-American selection as a senior. One of Keel's notable high school achievements was scoring the Vikings' only playoff touchdown in nearly 20 years on a late-game scoring strike from quarterback Andy Ikeberg in the 1988 Maryland State playoff loss to Randlestown. Rarely do you see a marginal high school quarterback make it onto a Wikipedia page. But I coached Andy in basketball. And by the way, never met a shot that he didn't like, as you know. But the reason I find familiarity with that is because my younger brother played on that team with you. And I'll never forget that high school playoff game.

Ryan was a hell of a high school football player. You really were. I think that, you know, the focus on you catching a touchdown pass probably didn't really represent the kind of high school football. player you were on defense, right? Yeah. No, it's listening. It was, yeah, it was fun. That's funny.

I'm sort of laughing here as you're telling me this, Kevin. I mean, you know, we had some good years there and some good players, but high school football to me was a lot of fun. And I played basketball, played baseball, did all of it. So I think I finished with 10 varsity letters over my four years at Whitman and really had a good time in football. And, yeah, Andy threw, I mean, that all that's fact. I mean, he didn't throw the ball.

Our starting quarterback was hurt. I got hit Pat Denny. You end up going on to James Madison playing a few years. And yeah, no, it's, that's all true. Yeah. You know, that sounds like an edit from a good friend or family member of Andy Ikeberg. You know, just to curiosity, and I think I have this right, Marty coach you guys, right, Dickerson? And football, Rich Cameron.

Oh, so Cameron was still the coach. Yeah, Rich was there. and then Marty was the basketball coach. Marty was, Marty's first year was my senior year as the basketball coach at Whitman, and it was a great experience. Marty passed away, actually, a couple of years ago at a pretty young age. But I've told the story many times. Our senior year at Whitman, the biggest guy in the team was Anthony Dilwig, who was 6'4.

Anthony went on to play in the NFL, played for the Packers, played at Duke. He was our biggest guy at 6'4. And what we made up, you know, what we didn't have in size we made up for in the lack of overall athleticism on the team. And so we lost our first five games by like an aggregate of 100 points. And Marty Dickerson, who ended up coaching football at Whitman, too, Marty came in one Saturday morning and installed a double high post delay offense. No shot clock back then. In fact, the county hasn't had a shot. I think just recently got a shot clock.

And the first game we played at Blair. They were ranked 10th in the city, the old Blair, over on Sligo Creek Avenue. And the score was three to two at halftime, and we lost 19 to 18 in double overtime. But after that, we won like eight of our final 11 games playing that way. We became so proficient. The scores climbed. I mean, they were into the 30s after a while, but it was one of, and you've had, you know, having gone through the athletic career that you've gone through, you've had so many

coaching experiences, but I've always told the story about Marty Dickerson as my high school basketball coach, my senior year, and what a lesson that was, a life lesson in that you can always sort of figure it out. You know, there's always a way to compete and to win. win, you know, potentially. And he figured it out with us. He was really actually such an influence on so many of us that played on that particular team. He had better teams and more talented teams down the road that he didn't have to play that way with. But, you know, can you remember a coach from at any point that really had sort of a life impact beyond just an athletic impact on

you? Yeah, well, it's funny. You hit on a few different things. One, you know, that ability to sort of constantly adapt, right? And we were sort of talking about, you know, past careers. And I sort of, you know, my dad was a great influence on me in terms of always understanding that you want to have the next door open. Doesn't mean you have to walk through it. But you're always sort of planning and thinking ahead. And I think he learned that. He played for Bo Schembeck at Miami University of Ohio. And so I think he got that from him. But, you know, and really sort of planning and preparing. And that's what's all sports is about. You're constantly preparing and planning for scenarios. You know, that's what you, you know, that's what you do of what can happen over the course of a game.

And if you sort of take that same approach, you know, in life, I think that's, that helps people out. You know, if you can sort of constantly planning for the next thing, again, even if you don't take it. But from a coach perspective, I had one coach at UVA. You know, I was a guy that went to UVA. I never really worked out. I was more of an athletic type guy, although, you know, it's sort of hard to believe at this day and age where the athletes running around. But, you know, I was a six, four, 230-pound kid. who never really lifted weights,

played tight end in the linebacker in high school. You know, immediately I get there. I'll set my hands in the dirt, you know, and I'm redshirted. And, you know, they probably looked at my frame and said, God, if we actually, if you actually lifted, you know, for more than, you know, a couple times a year, we can put some weight on them.

And so I transitioned to defensive line and about, you know, I started as a sophomore there at UVA, but we hired a coach or George did, got him Larry new. And Larry was a tough, like, tobacco chewing, dog cussing, defensive line coach. And we had talent.

The four starters, three of us played in the NFL for at least six years. Before I was a snapper, I played defense line for four and a half, five years. Right. And so, Malary was the first guy to really make me feel uncomfortable, right, with sort of challenging me of what I can get done. And, you know, just the lack of excuses and sort of the bottom line business.

doing things the right way and, you know, preparing the right way and not only physically, but mentally and emotionally, you know, he was the one that I think really taught me about, you know, what it's like to really compete as you get at the higher levels, right? It's no longer you can rely on just, and you see so many star high school athletes of any sport, you know, they get to college and it's just they can't handle that intensity with which you at the commitment level. And I think that commitment level that he demanded from all the guys that I played with on the defensive line in those years at UVA, you know, I think that's, I've taken that.

And really, you know, again, whether it was that Under Armour, whether it was in the pros, whether my player association work or now in my new business, like that commitment level is just needed. What was his name, Ryan? What was Larry New? Larry knew. And the George you're referring to, of course, was the great George Welsh, the longtime coach at UVA, and you, you played on some good Virginia teams, right? You guys went to bowl games.

Yeah, no, we were good. I mean, we were, I mean, if it wasn't for FSU coming into the conference and the conference not being ready. Right. And really, we probably would have won two or three ACC championships. We've, you know, this is pre-ACC championship game. And this is, you know, I tell, you know, my kids who don't understand, like 11 games in a bowl game. Like, that was it. You know, you got to play. But I think the worst season we had, It was 7-4. The best season we had was 9 and 3 or 10-and-2. You know, we finished top 20 most years, if not, except for maybe the one year we were.

I mean, we're 7-4 and you can do a bowl game, right? Like that. Yeah. If that tells you something, now you got, they're begging for teams that are 5 and 7 to come or 6-and-6, you know. And they're playing 12, you know, like. Right. So, yeah, 7-4 didn't get you to a bowl game back then. So it's a different time.

It's all good. But yeah, no, we have some really good teams, super talented teams, you know, sort of top 10 defensive teams are our defensive coordinators, a guy named Rick Lance, who is like this devilish little bald man that just could call a great game and motivate the hell out of us. And this is, you know, we had Rondie Barber and James Ferry and Jamie Sharper. And we had some really talented guys on defense back then. And, yeah, it was great.

It was a ton of fun. So we're talking to Ryan Keel. Ryan played many years in the NFL primarily as a long snapper. Yep. I don't know the answer to this. Did you long snap at UVA? I was only allowed to snap field goals because George didn't want me running, covering punts, and then going right to play defense.

Got it. So I snapped for only my last year because they had another guy who's good at it. So I always sort of just did it. But really, Kevin, I got into snapping because it was actually, I think, in Washington. And, you know, I had a year there where I started, you know, I don't know how many games, six, eight, ten games, a defensive line. Right. And, and like the next year, like, you think, well, I played, and I played pretty well for Norv. And then the next year, like, drafted three defensive linemen.

And, you know, like, I'm like, Jesus, like, fighting for your job every year. And I wasn't, and, you know, I was a more of an intense, like, I was a smart guy, the tough guy. The guy could play four positions. Like, that was my role, um, on defense, right? I can sort of, I could plug me in anywhere and you're not going to lose with me because I wasn't going to screw you up. I may not beat the tackle or the guard for a sack, but you could sort of, I could work within the defense to play the scheme and sort of read formations and quickly get guys playing the right plays on the defensive line front. But they were constantly trying to replace me, you know, so I'm like, well, screw this. They don't try to replace the long snapper every year.

Like if I can really hone that skill, that can keep me in the league. You know, and so when I went to Cleveland, is when I really started doing it. I played two years. I did both. I was sort of the. So you didn't do any long snapping in Washington or did you? I forget. I did not. I did not. Who was the long snapper? Do you remember? Dan Turk. Of course. Of course. Trevor, my first year. And then Dan came in because Trevor retired, I think. Well, because Matt Turk is the name Matt Turk in 1996 and you were on that team with North's team in 96. Matt Turk was the last first team all pro from this organization until

Brandon Sheriff was named first team all pro this year. That's how long it had been. Turk was the last one. And that's right, Dan Turk, his brother, and there's that famous game in a playoff game at Tampa when they had a chance at the end to kick a field goal to win the game. He bounced one back. And basically it really, I mean, he had major. issues psychologically from that and ended up dying a few years later of cancer, like at a super young age. Yeah, no, it can definitely mess with you. That's what I think I learned.

Like, people don't realize, I mean, like, the, like, it's just, you know, what I try to, I played it until a golf swing, right? Like, you just try to, like, get grooving and you try to, you're constantly sort of tinkering, but it also can get in your head if you let it. You know, thankfully, I never had an issue like Dan did over my years in Cleveland and New York snapping. that doesn't mean it didn't like the thought of it didn't enter my head like I just luckily I didn't you know and I probably had some that weren't great but you know I had a punter or a holder that bailed me out you know but it's it's a yeah it's in back then you know with the physicality that it was because there was all the staff was

were bigger back then because you could pound on them right you could put two or three guys on them and and and try to work them and a lot of I mean there was one special teams coach in Cincinnati when I was in Cleveland he literally told me he's like I feel like I've got a better chance of hurting you, not hurt, he didn't say the word hurting, but basically, if I can punish you throughout the game and get a bad snap at the end of the game, we have a better odds of getting that than blocking. Yeah. So they'd scratch you. They'd do all sorts of stuff, your hands and stuff after the kicks and things, try to step on your hands, just trying to mess with you.

Right, because it was a big play. It was always a very important play in a game, and it could be the play in the game. So you go to Cleveland from Washington. So tell us how the whole long snapping thing came together. Yeah, well, you know, it's an expansion team. And since I'd spent one year in San Francisco, Dwight Clark and Common Policy came to Cleveland. The owner was Al Lerner, who was a great guy, MBA bank guy, super slick self-made man. And he was awesome.

And so I knew them for San Francisco. So I went there and, you know, we go to the first mini camp. And, you know, it's expansion. You had four mini camps and all these practices. it was like Lord of the Flies. Like everyone's just trying to survive. Right. You know, every practice and everyone's just, I mean, imagine expansion.

It's like you're fighting for your career, essentially, you know, because, you know, and so, you know, you've got bloated rosters and everything. And they had one other guy who could do it. And they're sort of looking around. I'm like, well, you know, I sort of saw the opportunity. So I really started to work on it that first offseason in Cleveland. And then the other guy got hurt. And so now they were just down to me.

And Ken Wisenhunt was the special. James Cody said, listen, I love how you do it. Plus, you can play defense. And so, you know, it's basically yours to lose, you know, because I'd proven over all these mini camps and stuff. So, you know, we go into the preseason and I was doing that, and I would run from defensive line drills to snap and back and back and forth. And, you know, we do two-minute drills, and I'd be on defense,

and then they get to field goals. They put me out, pull me out. I'd take my gloves off and, you know, snap it back. You know, it's pretty challenging. But anyway, earned their trust and ended up for two years I played defense and snapped. And then I got in a fight with Orlando Brown in practice, which wasn't the best career decision from my physical perspective. And I broke my hand, broke the bone in my hand, and I couldn't snap for like, I figured it out. I got in the game, but the coach said, okay, that's enough.

If you're dumb enough to get in a fight and risk your hands, then you can't play defense anymore. So I stopped playing defense two years in a Cleveland. Orlando Brown you got into a fight with in Cleveland and broke your hand. So it sounds like the way you described it and the final result that it didn't go well for you. What happened? Well, I mean, I tended to chirp out there a little bit, but not like Kevin, not like in the nasty talking shit sense, but more like just sort of like engaging. I call it engaging.

And so I just was kindly telling Zeus that he was tipping a stance. And I could tell when he was passing. I could tell when it was run. And I could tell when he was walking down. And if you can tell those three things before the snap, you're in good shape. You're in pretty good shape, right? And so he just didn't like the fact that I was telling him this.

And I was just trying to help him, Kevin. That's all I was trying to do. And so he, but he didn't like my tone. And so he decided to, you know, give me a little extra shove. and often in football, at least back then. It's a little bit of prison rules. Like, you can't really be bitched around like that. So I had to turn around and I started after him.

And as soon as I threw the first punch, I started, you know, yelling, break it up, break it up, break it up. Yeah, right. Throw the first punch and hope everybody jumps in. It's the bar rules. He's pounding on my back. He's just pounding, you know, and I happen to catch him on the side of the helmet.

And I just cracked the bone in my top of my hand. And I didn't really feel it because I was, you know, adrenaline's going pretty good. But yeah, so, you know, Bush Davis was the coach at the time. He said, all right, you know, that's enough. Like if you're stupid enough to get in a fight with Zeus and break your hand when you're our only snapper. And I was the only one we had. And so, you know, again, I could snap and stuff, but that was sort of enough for them to say, you know, you go snap and put your visor on and stand on the sidelines when we're not more pressing.

And so that's what I did. You know, those Cleveland teams, correct me if I'm wrong. wrong. They were decent teams. Well, and the first two, we sucked. Okay. We were bad. And then Butch came in. My last, in fact, the last playoff game Cleveland played was my last year in Cleveland

in 2002 before this year. The last playoff game that Cleveland played before this year was 2002. You were on that team, and that was a Butch Davis team. Yeah, Bush Davis in Pittsburgh. in the snow. We had a 12-point lead with four minutes to go and lost.

Yeah. And you were the snapper in that game? Yep, yep. Who was the kicker? Phil Dawson was a kicker. Gar-Dakken was a punter. Antoine Randall L. Ranel went back. Oh, he did?

Yeah, son of a bitch. Off of a punt. Yeah, I was a punt. I just pulled up the box score. He had a 66-yard punt return in the second quarter. You guys lost. You were up 33-21 in the fourth quarter. quarter and Tommy Maddox led the Steelers back over a Kelly Holcomb led Brown's team. Yeah, and

sleepy. I mean, are you just trying to kick me in the balls here? Because like, it's just, I'm reliving this now, Kevin. I mean, it's like we, it was third and eight. I'll tell you, third and eight, and Dennis Northcutt, who, if you look, he had a hell of the game. Yeah. Dennis had a 12 yard out that Kelly put on the numbers. Now it's snowing and it's mud and Dennis is awesome. So I mean, it happens. But it was third and eight with four 12 to go. And I think it's 4-12 was the number, and he dropped it. And that would have been a first down, which means we would have run, you know, run, run, run, run.

We punt, we're up 12, work two scores. Yeah, and that would have been a ball game. But we pawned it and all of a sudden quickly, and then they freeing out quick score, and that was it. You know, but if we catch that ball, they probably don't get two draws, you know. I mean, that had to be Tommy Maddox's best game of his career, right? Like his biggest moment.

Yeah, I didn't. By the way, you played with one of the all-time, you know, QB busts, right, and Tim Couch. Yeah, Tim, Tim didn't quite grasp it. I mean, I play with Heath in Washington, too. Oh, that's true. Yeah, I've had a couple of them. But, yeah, no, Tim didn't quite, you know, Tim was a good guy and a super good athlete. You know, I just think, you know, some of his mechanics and stuff, I don't know enough to know why he didn't work out.

But plus it was a bad team, you know, and you see a lot of the quarterbacks who go to the expansion. teams just don't quite pan out. You know, it's car down in Houston or whatever else. So then how did you get to New York and play for the Giants to finish up your career as a long snapper? Yeah, I was unrestricted. And so actually that game, the Giants were in the playoffs in San Francisco that year. And their snapper bounced like three back.

Exactly. That's that famous like 39-38 game or something like that. Yeah, Craig Junk and who snapped forever and did it forever. he just, you know, sort of didn't just have a day. And so I was unrestricted and they had a problem. And New York had had a problem for a year. And so it sort of turned into a bigger deal than I ever wanted it to be. But yeah, so I signed as an unrestricted free agent in New York.

A snap. I would imagine that the snaps that you remember more than any other were those that didn't go well. Give me one or two that you absolutely remember and were the worst nightmare of snaps, if you had any. I didn't have any nightmares. So I didn't throw any over the head or I didn't bounce any back or, and we always got the kickoff.

In fact, I don't think I ever had a punt blocked. I mean, all the years I snapped. Was there ever a missed kick blamed on the snap? I'd say questionably. Fine. That's fine. Yeah, I always say, you know, okay, a little high or a little inside and they missed the kick.

And now, again, I was fortunate. A lot of the kickers I was with would never blame the snapper. Phil Dawson, who kicked it forever, who was awesome. And, you know, in New York, we had Jay Feely and Steve, we went through a few of them, Steve Christie, and then finished with Lawrence Times. I mean, you know, those guys generally would. But maybe, you know, the holder, maybe doesn't quite get it.

And, you know, and sometimes the coach would just get on you just to sort of straighten you up a little bit, you know, and because at that point, I'm a little older and, you know, it's, I'm clearly not playing defense, and it turns into a pretty good gig, you know. So they always wanted to sort of keep you a little bit on your edge if it wasn't perfect. I will say a funny story in Cleveland. We had a coach who had been a long time special teams coach, Jerry Rossburg, he was with the Ravens for a long time. And he's a great guy, and I'm super happy for him. He recently retired.

But he came to Cleveland and Chris Bardock, you punted forever and won a Super Bowl in Pittsburgh and myself and Phil. and, you know, after like a mini-camp, he, like, gave us, like, this breakdown of our practices. Like, it was all, like, these sheets of paper, you know. And we didn't meet. We didn't do it. Like, we were, like, and we literally, he called us up to his office to watch tape. We're like, we don't watch tape.

Like, that's not what we do. But he was, he'd come from Notre Dame and he's college, and he's really raw, raw. And so we basically went up there, and I remember Gardocki took the pieces of paper, crumbled him up through him in the trash as he walked into the meeting. And Jerry looked at us, like, what are you guys doing?

Like, we don't look at that stuff. Like, we know. Like, you know, you do it enough. You know when you're right, when you're not, you know. It's a feel that you have. You don't need to have anybody watch tape to tell you. It's a bit of a lonely existence, though, when you're a kicker, punter, a long snapper, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it was much, it was easier to do. It's a great gig. You got paid well. You got played great. I mean, but, you know, as a guy that this is sort of, again, when it was a little bit more physical and you were a lot of the guys played other positions I found that easier now guys are sort of trained and sort of it's almost like training to be like a left-handed reliever you know guys have they don't have you know I stroke with it initially because I was used

to sort of you know being with the guys and being with a defensive group and like practicing and going through the bags and doing all the individual periods and all that stuff and and you know when you sort of all of a sudden you say, no, you can't do that anymore. And I mean, you figure out things to do. And there's a lot of, you know, games and side hustles and things you can start. But yeah, no, it's definitely like, you know, with regards to snapping and not to, you know, it sort of gets boring for folks. But like you don't realize you need one until you don't have one, right? I mean, it's a little bit like a kicker.

And it's a little bit like a punter. Like when you have a bad one, you know it. If you have a good one, you sort of take you basically end up taking it for granted, which is. if you're any good, you never want to be the reason for a team to lose. The only reason anybody would know your name, really. I mean, Nick Sundberg's been here now for over a decade. I'm going to ask you about him here in a moment. But the only reason anybody ever knows a long snapper's name is when he fucks it up.

Right. But at the same time, I asked you and you couldn't recall any bad snaps. And by the way, I'm not suggesting that you had one because I know you did this for a long period of time. You were obviously very good. do you remember a specific massive kick, you know, a field goal to win a game that, you know, the whole operation and the pressure of it? Yeah. Yeah, Pittsburgh, when I was in Cleveland, I had a few of them in Cleveland. You know, we were horrible.

I think it was our first year there. And we got smoked our first game against Pittsburgh in the open. It was like Sunday night TV and the whole thing. And we went to Three Rivers. This is in Three Rivers. And we had a kick to win it. Mike Vrable had a personal fast. got us 15 more yards.

We like ran a play. We screwed up. Like, I always hear you bitching about the coaches. That's been a, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, we screwed that up. And so we end up having to run on to win it after getting blown out by like 30, maybe more. I mean, no. And, and, and I remember, and I got down and one of the Steelers spit on my hand.

And I can feel it. Like I heard him and I felt it. And I remember snapping and I got blown up back and all these bodies. So I didn't know if it went in or not. I could only tell about a crowd noise. And Phil made it. And the guy who spit on me was like laying next to me. And I turned him.

I said, are you the guy that just spit on my hand? And he looked at me and gave me this look. And I'm like, I go, don't do that. Like, we made the kicks. Like, you know, like, in front of my bad. He's like, my bad, bro. I'm like, all right, don't know. But that was a fun one because we won that.

And it was such a big deal with the Cleveland. And we were so bad as a team. And Pittsburgh was really good. So that was sort of the first one. But that one I remember really well. There's some others in there that. Do you remember who it was who spit on your hand? No.

I could picture the number. Like 93. I think it was 93. By the way, you know, you just mentioned something, which is, you know, the situation, which probably is the one situation more than any other that you probably practiced, I'm guessing, which is no timeouts and you've got to rush the field goal. team on. It's a lineup for a kick at the end of a game or end of a half with no timeouts. How many seconds does it take?

16. Yeah. That's what Belichick says. Yeah. 16. A little bit can depend on what hash, because you've got to go a little further. You know, if it's the further hash, and quite frankly, if it's like, if you're at the 35 or 40, that's easier than if you're like at the 8. Because you're closer. Yeah, you're closer. So that can jog it a little bit, but 16 is an easy, easy rule. You know, it's sort of a rule of farm. Right. All right. So I'm just curious, your final year in your career in your career was 2006 as a giant. You were only 34. Why did you, why did you hang it up? Well, I was, it was 07. Okay. I last year playing. I got hurt in the start of 07. Okay. With the giants.

with the giants. I tore my calf and my Achilles. And that was it. And I was it. And I was like, for whatever reason, we won the Super Bowl that year in New York. And I didn't get to playing it because I got hurt. And it was a bad one. And for whatever reason, you know, as a guy that was undrafted that sort of had to fight and claw and, you know, carve out this little niche and figure out how to sort of compete, you know, I didn't, for whatever reason, 12 was the number I wanted to get to. and that's what I got to, you know. And so I always knew that was my last year. Did you get a Super Bowl ring?

Yeah, yeah. Okay. That was the first, you know, Eli Manning over. Yeah. That's the David Tyree. So you, but were you hurt in the regular season? I was hurt in the preseason. In the preseason, got it.

Yeah. So I didn't get to play at all. Yeah. But it was a bad one. I mean, I was all my whole left, lower left leg was you know, blown up. And so, you know, that's, I mean, I've been there, about it was my fifth year there, and we had built all this thing, and Tom had come, and Eli had matured and all these things.

And, and, you know, and Mike was a great leader, Strayhan, and we had a great, really great group of guys. And what was Coughlin like? I like Tom. I mean, you know, he has his way, but, like, you knew where you stood. And when you played well, he told you, when he played like crap, he told you. And, you know, but. But that's okay.

You know, again, I think most players just want to know where they stand and they don't want to be lied to, you know. And so even if it's bad news. And I think Tom was really good at that. And the other thing I think I appreciate about Tom, you know, again, just being around them and watching the team play. And again, as sort of a guy that's snapping where I'd been out there, but now, you know, you spent a lot of time watching, you know, obviously.

We always played to win. Like Tom didn't, like it did matter, like, preseason. Okay, maybe not. But like every game like this, if it's, you know, fourth and four on the plus 40 and we're down two or maybe down five, like he's going for it. Like he's going to go. We got to get points. Like he doesn't punt. Like he would, you know, he always felt like he was always very aggressive in terms of playing to win and calling the game and making those head coach decisions around, around trying to win.

And so he put a premium on competing and winning, and he was, and he backed it up with how he called Pinks. Bottom line is he's won everywhere he's gone. I mean, even as an executive, right? I mean, the Jags, the other few years back had a chance. By the way, you know, that year 2007, you know, that's a season for around here, I'll never forget, because that was the Sean Taylor season where he was killed. But the playoffs that year, that was the championship game at Lambo played, you know, in minus five degrees with the icicles falling off of Coughlin's nose and face during that game. And that would have been, I'm curious, worst weather game you ever had to long snap in was what?

It snowed six inches in Cleveland during the game one year. At the end, it's colder in hell. And then New York, the wind. New York, the wind really, an old giant state in the winds. You'd get a cold, like, you know, a rainy 34-degree day with 20 miles an hour wind. Like, that was tough. Do you know Nick Sundberg? I don't know him, no.

Okay. I mean, he's like, I've always thought, and we've had these conversations on various shows in the past, it's like the long snapper in the NFL, what a gig. You get paid very handsomely to basically, now, it's, there's a lot of pressure in the job. but it's a pretty good gig if you're good at it, and he's lasted a long period of time. Do you remember how much money you made your final year? Yeah, I made about $700,000, maybe $750, something like that.

What are they making now? I mean, I could look it up in a second, but what is a lot? Most of the guys are minimum guys. So, like, I was a veteran minimum. So, like, I don't know what it was, but something like that. You know, I imagine he's, you know, maybe he has a bonus to it. He signed. Most of the guys are smart enough to, that's what we're all player reps too.

Right. You're smart enough that you stick around for a long time and you're smart enough to, they don't want to price myself out of a job either. But yeah, once you sort of, once you earn the organization's trust, I mean, the last thing an organization wants to have to apologize for is deciding to go cheap on a long snap when the guy bounces one back on a game winning kick. Right. It just makes no sense them to save a couple hundred grand to do that, you know.

We're talking to Ryan Keel. Ryan had a long NFL career as a long snapper. He was a really good player at UVA and was one of those high school athletes that anybody that was in high school remembers as being a tremendous all-around athlete. My younger brother played with Ryan in high school. And I remember my father and I just saying, my God, that's the best high school defensive player, linebacker we've ever seen. You really were a hell of a linebacker as a high school player. All right, I want to talk about Jordan Speath. And you identifying Spieth and signing them to the Under Armour deal. And we'll do that right after this word from one of our sponsors. It's worse stroke of the week. He saved it for right there. Never saw anything else that looked like that. The one he holding 16 was just phenomenal.

So that was to, he'd already decided to celebrate and why not? One of the epic performances in the annals of the sport. Back when Jordan Spieth was taking the golf world by storm, that was his win at the 2015 Masters. He was an Under Armour guy, and Ryan Keel is our guest on the podcast today, and Ryan was with Under Armour and is credited for really identifying Spieth and getting him signed to Under Armour. So we just talked about your NFL career as a long snapper. you end up, you know, leaving football in 2007. Tell me about your life professionally, how you made it to Under Armour. And before we get to the speed stuff, what your responsibilities there were and how you grew in the company.

Yeah, so I had, you know, I started there in January of 2009. I was there for 10 years. A great run, you know, big, you know, fast-paced, publicly traded company around some really, really good people. Most of them have all moved on at this point as leadership. to turn over, you know, when the senior guys turn over and then everyone else sort of tends to turn over as well. And so, so, but the group that we had there at the time was, was really a special group and really allowed us, you know, the ability to grow at the rate that we were sort of, you know, we were a high growth company. So with that comes sort of high risk and sort of fast

pace and all those things when it comes to investing and doing things. And, you know, I, I did a lot of work on the sponsorship side, a lot of the work in the, you know, identifying talent, uh, athletes, you know, college deals, professional deals, working a lot with agents and things to try to find out, you know, who could be the next great stars. And I'm really proud of the group that we had. They were assembled and Jordan was one of them. But, you know, Bryce Harper and we had Tom Brady and Mike Phelps.

And at one point, I think we had all four MVP's plus the PJ Tour Player of the Year in 2015 at Cam Newton. You know, on a budget that was, you know, infantile compared to, maybe our competitors. So we were really good at identifying talent. And I had a really good group of team, a team that helped me along with this, obviously, and so I certainly shouldn't take full credit. But we put together a model of the kind of athletes we wanted. And from a character perspective, from a personality perspective, from a performance perspective, and ceiling, and floor, quite frankly. And so we really was like sort of building a portfolio. And I spent a lot of my time doing that. And then in that, we signed Jordan. And then I actually started the golf business

there as well and did that for three years and sort of built a business within a business, which was super fun before going, before going back to the sports side and running the global sports group and essentially trying to do what we did in North America, doing it in Europe, doing it Latin America and South America and doing it over in Asia. And so, yeah, you know, it's interesting that people ask because we were really fortunate, like our hit weight rate was really high. And one of the reasons I give a lot of credit to an old scout from the NFL, a guy named Joe Collins, who was actually in San Francisco when I was there for my one year, was in Cleveland for three years of my four years there,

and was in New York for all five of my years there, just randomly. And I got to know Joe really, really well. And Joe, because I started snapping and not playing defense, I would go stand next to the scouts and just shoot the shit with them. And ask him, what are they looking at? What are you trying to see? What are you know? And some guys with totally technique focused.

Other guys were, you know, motor focused. And other guys were, how are the teammates? And, you know, like all of these different. Everyone sort of looked at everything. But then you could tell guys sort of weighted certain things. And so Joe was a guy. Joe liked, you'll appreciate this. Joe liked draft, Miller genuine draft by draft in an ice cold mug.

And in Albany, New York, there was a bar around the corner from where we were doing training camp that served it. And so like three times a training camp, I would take him to go get a beer. And I would pick his brain because he was a scout forever. He was always doing the southeast for teams. So he's like, you know, big football area and stuff and important NFL teams to get the southeast of the country right. And so I took a lot of the lessons from Joe and a lot of lessons from the other scouts that stood around and tried to implement those lessons into the into my team in Under Armored in terms of when it came to picking talent. And there's a lot of same things you're looking for, obviously not at the skill side, but from a character and personality

and sort of compete level and things that are the same. And athletes are the same, whether they're male or female, what matter of the sport, a lot of it's the same makeup. And so what is that make? I want to get into some of the specific names that you mentioned and even go through it chronologically. I'm very interested. But, you know, you've listened to Kooley and I have some of these conversations over the years. And I'm really interested in that because I love sort of what goes into, because it's so much more than just what they are athletically, you know. And so what are the key traits? What are the things that immediately are turnoffs or, you know, you're like, yeah, this is someone we'd want? You know, well, I'm not going to give you all the secrets, but, you know,

but I'll say that, you know, to me, like, let's just take Jordan as an example. Like here I'm an ex-N-NFL player. Yeah, I'm pretty good golf from a sort of high single-digit guy handicapped. So I know enough to get around. But I don't know, like I don't study someone's swing, right? I don't do that. Like, you know, that wasn't with Jordan or any of the golfers we had. You know, what I would look at is like, you know, how they carried themselves.

You know, that was my biggest thing because I felt that in an individual sport, like golf or like tennis, like when you're the only person out there competing, like you've got to have. a pretty thick skin. You've got to have a pretty broad back, right? And you've got to have a compete level because you got no one else there to pick you up. And so I remember Jordan one night, this is before we signed him, we were playing ping pong, right? And that son of the bitch, I played for, I mean, we played eight games. Like, we were in full sweat. Yeah. He's really good, but like I was going at it. I'm decent and like, he wasn't going to going to allow, like, you'd be like best of three, best of five.

Like, he's that guy. Like, you know, and, you know, like, I wanted to see, like, here we are ping pong at 11 o'clock at night. And he's literally, like, taking off his sweatshirt because he's sweating. And I left that going, okay, like, he's not afraid to compete. Like, he may not be perfect, but he's going to compete, right? And that's important. Like, you know, and when you're signing guys to contracts, and it doesn't matter what sport again, like money only lessens your motivation.

It doesn't make your motivation greater. And so the guys that are real, I was fortunate, I've been around Tom Brady a ton, assigned him and gotten to know him really well. Like the great ones that when I play with Jerry, when I play with Mike Strahan, when I play with Daryl here in Washington,

like the best players, like their compete levels were always super, super high. And that doesn't mean the average play. I mean, I had a high compete level too. I just wasn't good, right? But like, if you don't have that, there's no way you're going to be great. So like that to me, like I always try to figure out a way, like,

how can I get them in a situation where I could really evaluate their compete level, you know, and so, you know, often I was going to look into when they didn't know while I was watching because when I show up with a checkbook, right, like it's, it's, they know that I'm there and they're going to put on a great face. So you've got to get past that. So maybe show up when they don't think you're showing up, right? There's different things you can do. And you watch for maybe the trees versus being right along.

on the fence or whatever, you know, because you're trying to see are they really like that, or they just putting on a show for me. So you try to put yourself in their shoes and then and then work back from there. When you're identifying talents, particularly in that role, we're trying to be, you know, sign ambassadors. And, you know, UA, we were winning to me was everything. Like, even when we talk about, you know, whether it's the local football team here, like winning matters. It always matters. And, and I think when you're signing, talent, like that's got a matter to them to be the primary focus. I find that so fascinating.

You know, I remember something Gary Clark told me a long time ago, because Gary Clark remember him. He was a competitor on the field, certainly. And he said, you've got to hate losing more than you love winning. And those are the people that really, like, if you can identify the people that are absolutely devastated by losing. And they're good. That's a pretty good combination.

And, you know, it's funny because Kooley and I have had this conversation so many times. His kids are super young. Yours are older. Mine are older now. Years are younger than mine. But I've always felt that it is something that is very innate. That you're either born super competitive or born as a person who hates to lose

versus something that's acquired along the way. You can learn how to compete better, but ultimately the real killer competitors are born with it. Do you agree or disagree? I think that's probably closer to accurate than not. I think that there's, listen, like, you know, compete, you know, your compete level is probably something that's nurtured, you know, and then it's how you learn to control it.

I mean, my 12-year-old, bless his heart, like, He loses a game. It's like, I'm on suicide watch, right? Yeah. You know, like he just, it doesn't matter if it's, if we're hitting a tennis ball or going to play golf. Like, you know, all my kids are sort of like that a little bit, but he's way over the edge. The other two, another two are competitive. So I just think that, you know, there's probably a couple different layers in there. But, you know, again, the money changes things, right?

And that's where on the professional side, you know, a lot of people are competitive because of the, like, it's the whole idea, like, it's the whole idea, like, do you love being an athlete because of the money or do you love your sport right and like or what your sport provides you know and and weaving through that the psychology of it i mean i always felt i had a advantage because i'd been on that side of the fence and although i wasn't a big money guy and i was sort of a bottom feeder roster guy i'd been around a lot of guys who have and i saw it affect people differently and I could speak to it. And I got sort of, you know, it was very authentic when I would talk to the athletes because I sort of had this, you know, retired athlete card that I could play.

And I knew what was going through their head, you know. And so if someone had a bad stretch or whatever else, I could, I could lob a call in and, and I could sort of commiserate with them because I had bad stretches, right? And I felt like, oh, man, I'm really not playing well. I could get cut or I could, you know, I'm not doing exactly what I should be doing. I'm losing it because I'm getting older or whatever it may be. Like I always felt like I had that card and I think I can sort of maybe sense it or smell it a little bit quicker than others when you're talking about identifying athletes and that helped us avoid some mistakes. And we still made our fair share, but we also avoided some that maybe would have been much bigger.

So when you got to Under Armour, you know, you're just for everybody so you understand what Ryan's been talking about. He's tasked with identifying, you know, people that will become under Armour clients, you know, players in sports. And so who was your first big get? Oh, man. I mean, Big Big was Jordan. Who was the one where Plank and anybody else said, oh, man, he's going to be really good at this? I think it was probably Jordan. I mean, Kevin was, I mean, we had a lot of people.

I mean, the biggest challenge I had there was that you had a lot of fans. And the last thing you could be as a fan. Right. You know, and so, you know, they'd see someone play well in a college game. I'd get five text messages going, go sign Graham Herald. Right. You know, because he threw for 500 yards for Texas Tech. You know, I'll say, well, everybody throws 500 yards for Texas Tech.

A, it's the Big 12 and B is Texas Tech. Yeah. Like, you know, we're not worried about that stuff. Like, I talked to the scouts. They're the ones who tell me who's good or not. You know, in golf, I'd go talk to the equipment manufacturers or the clubby guys. You know, like that's just, you know, I'd go talk to those guys. I wasn't going to listen to agents.

I wasn't going to go listen to media. I'd go find the guys, you know, my dad often told me, like, you know, it's the whole idea. It's a little bit of money ball, right? Go where there's, go to find the information from the undervalued source. So how does you identify Jordan? Who led you to Jordan and how old was he at the time? I first noticed him at the Byron Nelson when he finished in the top five, I think it's 16. And I was watching on TV and that's when I started, okay, I got a guy here.

And then I started, really, it was the ping reps on the tour, even though he was a titleist guy. It was the ping reps. It was a couple of caddies that had, I've really respected, that had been on practice rounds with them. those are the two guys that I now talked to someone at the AJGA American Junior Golf Association and he had played a ton of AJGA events in fact he's he's he's I think only like second to Tiger in terms of success on the AJGA which is again the highest level sort of schoolboy and girl tournament touring on this in the country and and so those the guys that the really pinged

and honed in on and then I first followed him in person he was playing here on a sponsors exempt at congressional. And that was probably, I don't know what year it was. In the Tiger tournament. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was supposed to pick him up at 10. It was a practice round. And when you walk with someone to practice around, you're inside the ropes.

You're walking down the middle of fairway with him. I actually picked him up at 6. And I walked three holes, 7, 8, 9, without him knowing I was watching. Nor any, nor his dad. I was going to get introduced to his dad. And so I watched. And I, you know, Kevin, I looked at things like, you know, how he looked at fans. I looked at, you know, if he made a put or if he missed a putt, did he flip his putter in his bag or did he hand his putter to the caddy?

You know, how did he walk down the middle of fairway? Did he her shoulders back or was he sort of, you know, sort of, was he, you know, zeroing in? Or was he sort of more affable and lazy and, you know, not lazy is a bad word, but sort of more relaxed. You know, I wanted to see how that was, even in a practice round. You know, as an 18-year-old kid, like, how was he looking? look, he was he, I mean, he's playing with 30-year-olds, professional men, you know. Like, how is, did he, was he, was he giving way to them or did he, you know, did he, was I getting the sense that he felt like he belonged, right?

And, you know, you can see that, but like, does he ask them about reading greens or was he going over looking at the ball going, yeah, I think it moves two balls, you know, like, right. You know, if an 18-year-old, that's pretty encouraging, you know, if you sort of, if you act like, yeah, no, he's, this is what he does, you know. versus being a little quiet or more reserved. So I watched that for three holes, and then I walked with him for the back nine.

You know, and I'd talk with him in between shots and his dad was there. And that's when I first really, you know, once I got out to bat, I was like, wow, this is, he's got something. And, you know, he had a great start. He's been through a little bit of, he's been through a little bit of rough patch.

You know, I say, tell guys, sometimes you get in the woods, you know, and you can't find your way out. And he's been in the woods for a while. But, you know, I think he's, He's had a really good start this year, and he's a hard worker and super talented. He's playing well now, but you clearly, you know, it's Under Armour. And at the time, the inroads into that sport were limited compared to others, right?

Right. So how did you end up landing him? I mean, do you develop this relationship? By the way, you know, that day at Congressional, you knew the course. It's your home course. So the, was it how? Did it just connect between the two of you, you and the parents? No, I think myself and the parents and him, I think they appreciated.

The parents appreciated the fact that, you know, I got my NBA while I was playing the football, and I went to UVA, and I sort of had this view of sport as like a gateway to your next thing. And even though golf you can play for obviously your whole life, it's still, you know, at the time, they didn't know how good he was going to be. So I think, you know, this is before all the winning, right? So as a parent, you're going, I'd rather have him hanging out with that guy who actually prepared for when the sport was going to stop. And we talked about the importance of education, you know, and like I asked him

that in front of his parents, you know, and, you know, at the time, he's going, yes, I'm definitely going to finish the University of Texas. Like, I would talk about how valuable I thought that was. And if we can help, I'd do it and stuff. And I think that parents really appreciate it. He now, it turns out how I don't think he ever did. Yeah, I was going to say, did he ever get his degree? Probably not.

I don't think so. When you win as quickly as he did, the goals tend to shift. but still was a nice window into his soul. And so into the family. So I think there was some connection there. And then again, I think Jordan and I connected. Yeah, he's a huge sports guy. And so when I could talk to him about, you know,

get my butt kicked by Larry Allen in Texas Stadium, you know, he appreciated that. Yeah. You know, I think that that's, you know, we sort of connected from that side. And then he had an advisor that was close with as well. And, you know, that helped. And, you know, I think we put a very compelling offer.

and we told him, I said, listen, like, at the time, you know, I was getting ready to launch the golf brand. I was sort of shifting roles in Under Armour. I'm like, listen, man, like, here's what we think of the future of this brand in golf. And, you know, it's really challenging to build an endemic sport brand within a big sports sporting goods or, you know, company. Because just the endemic people, the avid, you know, users don't ever really accept you, like, a Nike in golf.

It'd be really tough for Under Armour to go into, like, cycling or something. You know, even tennis, because it just, you have these people, a really passionate group of people that just would never accept any brand, but brands that are only focused on their sport. And so you have to do certain things to sort of win people over and be authentic, which is a big word in my sort of vernacular. And I thought Jordan could really lead us there. And some of the things, you know, the ideas we had around youth golf and investing in the game

and things. So, yeah, it worked out. It worked out great. When he won that Masters in 2015, you were sitting there waiting for him, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, that was awesome. I mean, I was right there on the, you know, sort of a walk-up. And I remember, you know, of course, everyone's going to see him on the screen. And there's this young guy winning.

And I remember, you know, he sort of walked by me at first a little bit, which is fine. I wasn't expecting anything. I mean, trust me, there's a lot bigger things he needs to be thinking about. But his dad sort of grabbed him goes, Ryan, and he turned to me. He goes, RK, and he gave me a big hug. And, yeah, that was super. a long night after that. Yeah, I bet. But it was well worth it. I mean, it was really special how he plays down there is really special. He generally plays really well. What did that lead to? Landing

Speath for Under Armour, what did that lead to golf-wise for Under Armour? I mean, it put us on the map, right? It's, you know, like all of a sudden, we've got a real golfer who's, you know, you know, super, you know, really good with the media and really good with fans and obviously She's talented at the time. I had a great story. And, you know, we grew the business essentially 5X in three years. And that's a small base to start because we never really put a lot of focus on it. But still, it got to be north of $150 million in three years.

And I'll attribute a lot of that to how he was planning at the time. This was fun. I really appreciate it. You know, I told you when I texted you last night, and it's totally sincere, I've had you on like this list that I see. of, you know, I've got this podcast. It's longer form and I'm able to talk to people for a longer period of time. And you know how much all of us, you know, and my family have sort of followed your career over the years.

And so I'm glad we finally caught up. And, you know, we can have some football conversations when we get into the season next year. And we'll have you on again. I love to, you know, kind of growing up here and we chat a little bit, you know, grew up here in the 80s and what the time the Redskins now in Washington football. team what that team means to this city when they're good. Yeah. As you know, and many people around here don't know, as you've said, I've heard you say many

times, like they've lost a generation or two. But now you sort of feel like it's coming back around and you can see the energy. So I'm sure that's good for your business as, but it's good for the city as well. And I look forward to it. Well, we need, I mean, this is the thing that a lot of people that listen to the sports talk radio stations in town don't understand because, so much of it has been negative and critical because the team has stunk for so long, but all of us desperately want them to win.

It would be much better business for us if they want. And you know this. I'm a lifelong born and raised fan. I want them to win. By the way, we'll end it on that. Who do you want their quarterback to be next year? You know, to me, you know, they've got a – they're building it the right way, right? you build it, you know, front to back, you know, in close to wide, right?

Like, that's what you do. Like, they're doing that the right way. Those, if you got a good D-line and a good O line, you can make up for a lot of average players around you. And but the quarterback matters. The quarterback matters the most. And so to me, if it were me, I'd take as big a swing as you can at one of the top flight guys, whether that's Wilson or Watson or whomever. If not, you know, I think you probably sit with what you got and continue to,

to build around it and take another swing at a at a big guy next year. I don't think going down the road of, you know, you may need to bring a veteran to sort of hold you over, but I don't think, you know, sort of, you know, being half pregnant is the right way to be. You know, like go find your guy. You hear about stories like Carolina and that owner really trying to make a big push for Watson and maybe even mortgage a little bit more than he should, but that's how important that position is. So if you can get a young one that's that's really been proven himself like Watson,

like I wish they could make that move and and maybe overpay even initially, but I think you'll play off in the in the long run. But if that's not the case, then go with what you got and continue to build the lines and out a few more skills. By the way, as we just keep extending this longer and longer, which is fine. You know, being sort of a guy that played in the NFL, you went to this guy, Joe Collins, who was a longtime scout, and picked his brain over, you know, beers in upstate New York over and over again, who, you know, was charged with identifying talent and recruiting talent. Did you ever consider a career in the NFL? I did. I had a couple opportunities. I just, you know, I didn't think that, of course, I didn't know they were going to make as much money as they do now, to be fair.

But I also did, the lifestyle's tough. I mean, coaching was never really, I had an opportunity to do that, and I didn't want to do that just again, lifestyle with my kids and all. You know, on the front office side and things, I thought that was intriguing at times because I think there's a little more strategy involved there and a little more management and stuff. but at the end of the day, it wasn't for me, and I figured out another way to still scratch that itch and not have to worry about getting fired over two years. Great to catch up. Really appreciate it. Thanks, buddy. Good for you and enjoyed it,

and good for you on all the success you've had. I look forward to continue and to listen to you in Cooley and Tom and when I go on my walks. It was a good way to get my hour and a half in it. That's when I listen to a podcast as well. Ryan Kiel, everybody. See you. All right, we'll finish up the show with a little bit of NFL news that's come out this morning

right after this word from one of our sponsors. All right, the NFL just a few hours ago, set the salary cap number for the upcoming season. It'll be $182.5 million. Obviously, down from where it was at 198, all pandemic-related. Keep in mind that no team will actually have. a $182.5 million cap number because they're cap carryovers with various earned and under-earned incentives from the year before. So there's an adjusted cap number. Washington's number ultimately, according to multiple spots, is essentially, you know, after the sheriff

deal, heading into free agency, you know, with the Alex Smith reduction or cap savings is going to be $38.9 million in cap space. That's number six. That's sixth in the league in available cap space. So we get to Monday in the beginning of the free agency period, legal tampering anyway with the league calendar on March 17th, getting underway. Washington will have 38.9 million bucks in cap space. All right, that's it for the day. Really appreciate the time spent with Ryan Keel back tomorrow with Tommy.