The Kevin Sheehan Show - Rivera: "We Should Be Ascending"

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Kevin opened the show with one of the show's legal contributors, Neil In Rockville, to discuss the latest back and forth between the Commanders and attorney Lisa Banks who represents former Washington VP of Ticket Sales Jason Friedman. Kevin then recapped last night's NCAA National Championship win by Kansas. John Keim/ESPN jumped on to talk about his recent interview with Ron Rivera who said he expects a lot from this year's team and that the team "should be ascending". Barry Svrluga/Washington Post called in from Augusta to talk Final 4, Duke, and Tiger Woods' chances at The Masters.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Busy Tuesday on this podcast. Tiger is going to play the Masters. Barry's Verluga is going to join us.

We're going to talk primarily college basketball. Duke in particular. Barry's a Duke guy. But we will ask Barry about Tiger Woods' chances to win at Augusta. Tiger has just announced that he will be playing. at Augusta. We've got a national championship winner last night, Kansas rallying from 15 down at halftime to beat North Carolina. And right now, right at the top of the podcast, because there's more news breaking related to the Washington commanders and the situation related to the story

that broke over the weekend about the scam to skim 40% or to skim some of the 40% of the revenue owed back to the league. We had A.J. Perez on the show yesterday. We had Howard Gutman on the show. And right now to start the show with me is my good friend, Neal & Rockville, our official legal contributor to the podcast, although Howard Gutman is pretty damn close. We have a plethora of legal people.

but just to catch everybody up to speed and then I'm going to ask Neil what he thinks. So since the podcast yesterday, we had a statement from the team which read there's been absolutely no withholding of ticket revenue at any time by the commanders. Those revenues are subject to independent audits by multiple parties. Anyone who offers testimony suggesting a withholding of revenue has committed perjury, plain and simple, closed quote. That came from a team spokesperson. Lisa Banks, the lawyer, who represents more than 40 former team employees, many of the women who alleged a culture of sexual harassment and misogyny. And she also represents Jason Friedman. We talked a lot about Jason

Friedman yesterday on the show. Jason Friedman, known to many of you. initially because he was the one that corroborated the Tiffany Johnston allegation about shoving, being shoved by Dan Snyder into her limousine or the attempt to do so. He did not corroborate the other allegation from Tiffany Johnston, which was the hand on the thigh underneath the table during a business meeting. Jason Friedman, former VP of ticketing for the Washington football team, 24 years an employee was let go in 2020. Lisa Banks is representing Jason Friedman,

and she put out a statement late yesterday. The commander's statement defamed my client, Jason Friedman, who came forward at the request of the Congressional Oversight Committee and tested truthfully. Unfortunately, Mr. Friedman is unable to defend himself publicly due to contractual constraints that prevent him from speaking freely. He would be happy to. recount his testimony if team owner Dan Snyder and the Washington commanders allow him to do so,

I will await their response. Well, the response just came. The response came from commander's lawyer Joseph Takapina. We've read that name before. I thought he was Snyder's personal lawyer. But here's the statement from him, quote, the commanders did not reference Mr. Friedman or anyone else by name in their statement. However, if Mr. Friedman believes he has been defamed, he should bring a defamation suit. The commanders will gladly accept service and vigorously defend any such claim, closed quote. That's where we are today on this matter. Neal and Rockville, what do you make of all of it? Well, as we said earlier this morning, just wait, things will change at 12. And as I look at my clock as we tape right now, it is literally 12 noon.

Yes. So, um, listen, as we discussed this morning, you know, it was my opinion that I thought that the statement by the attorney, uh, Ms. Banks, you know, sort of opened up some doors. It certainly identified the client, her client as having testified when before it was just reports from, um, the press and media, most notably, I think, uh, capital. was the first from the athletic right from the athletic to identify him but she threw down the gauntlet and the commanders through their attorney responded um and so in some ways you know the ball is really back in her court and her client's court and it puts it puts a lot into issue because

not only is she having to now deal with this issue with regard to freedman But, you know, if Congress wanted to, you know, bring these people in secretly and have them provide testimony and provide documents with the notion and belief that they were, you know, it wasn't going to be publicized, well, this has really thrown that door open. And so anyone who might have thought about coming forward in doing such, you know, it's more likely they're not going to be very hesitant because there are leaks in Congress, as, you know, as you said, is almost as leaky as a sieve. And it sounds like it's coming from, at least seemingly from the Democratic side at this point in time, because the reactions and the responses against the leaks have been by the representative of the GOP part of the committee, as well as. as sort of Dan Snyder and the commander's side. Yeah, this has been a fascinating back and forth here over the last, you know, 18 hours or so, coming up on 24 hours. Because yesterday, you know, all of our conversation was really about, with A.J. Perez,

all right, so what are these allegations? Where do they come from? He confirmed it was Jason Friedman. He said that there was more information coming. Others had more information with respect to specifically financial improprieties. He also suggested that he didn't believe that the amount, you know, that Washington may have skimmed off the top was very significant, which was kind of my point, which led me not to say that the owners wouldn't be upset if it were true, but just to say, why would Washington do it with

such a small return. That hasn't stopped them from doing stupid things in the past. But when the team under sort of this discussion publicly about this ticket revenue scam responded without mentioning Jason Friedman by name in their first statement, there's been absolutely no withholding of ticket revenue at any time by the commanders. Those revenues are subject to independent audits by multiple parties. anyone who offered testimony suggesting a withholding of revenue has committed perjury, plain and simple. We know that they were probably referring to Jason Friedman, but they didn't do so by name. Then her statement not only names Jason Friedman as the source of this information, but then essentially Neil Wright reveals that he's under an NDA.

Oh, certainly. So, you know, he's revealing this. information unless, as you described to me this morning, he was subpoenaed, which we don't believe to be the case. He broke the NDA. She named him by name and said that, you know, he was defamed. So the team bites, you know, snaps back today and says, hey, we didn't name him. But if Mr. Friedman believes he's been defamed, bring the defamation suit. So now to your, your point, it puts it back into her lap. Doesn't she have to bring some sort of defamation suit against the team?

I mean, and how could she do that when they never named him? I mean, as we discussed, I mean, she opened the door. They basically, you know, kicked the door open and said, you know, bring it on. It's put up or shut up. And, you know, it calls into question, you know, as we said, that, but also in some ways, she's the, he's the corroborating mystery letter for Tiffany Johnson. Right. And so, you know, does this now challenge the credibility of that, as they're all seemingly represented also by the same attorney?

It was something that, once again, as we've discussed, it's another distraction. It pulls it away. this now pulls it away even from the allegations. Now this is all on, you know, the, whether or not they're going to sue, or they're going to do a defamation suit now. Is Friedman going to, you know, what's Freeman all about? So now we've gotten three or four steps away from the entire reason, supposedly, for the congressional hearing to see whether or not there was a toxic environment, what can be done to protect women in the workplace,

things like that. Now we're talking about a, you know, a defamation suit involving the team and a sales ticket, vice president or rep, which is going to further cloud everything else having to do with the investigation, particularly with regard to what Congress wants to do about the monetary stuff. If I was them, they need to just, Congress need to just step away from that. The NFL will do what the NFL does. You had some great information provided to you about, you know, how much and how difficult it would really be because of the different layers of auditing for such a scam to sort of even occur, much less if it was of any significant amounts of money, you know, it would, you would think it would be caught by the two or three

levels of auditing between the NFL, the NFLPA, as well as the self-audits of the team itself. So, you know, it's just a continuation of diversions from, you know, what are they really all about? John Kime wrote a story today, too. There's some stuff in here that I mentioned on the podcast yesterday that I had learned as well, but he said as of late last week, multiple committee members were unaware of the new allegations, according to sources. Okay, so many on the House Oversight and Reform Committee didn't even know about these allegations. And then John wrote, some league sources said that it would be difficult to alter the books based on the stringent auditing process by the NFL. The league conducts an audit of teams every several years.

Washington was audited in 2012, 2016, and 2019. It's common for every NFL team to pay more after these audits, often several hundred thousand dollars. In 2019, a source said Washington had to pay an additional $86,000. I mentioned this on the podcast yesterday that I learned that these audits from the league on its 32 teams happen. You know, roughly every three years, they had been audited, you know, a few years back, and they had to pay $86,000 in overage. And the average difference of what teams owed after the league audited the teams was $400,000.

Now, maybe they missed out on this big ticket scam. But again, you know, according to A.J. Perez here on the podcast yesterday, he said the benefit wasn't even what I was, you know, penciling out on the back of an envelope at like a million five. He was saying it was hundreds of thousands of dollars. So, again, minimal benefit for this scam to the team. doesn't mean they didn't do it because they've done some stupid ass shit in the past. We know that for minimal benefit. But man, real minimal benefit more likely than not to pull off this scam. And they are clearly, just as they were with the Tiffany Johnston stuff,

there's a sense I get from their responses that they don't believe that any of this is true. And it puts them into a position if they fight it and it comes out that people, swung and missed on these various allegations, that all of a sudden the big ones that seem to have a lot more substance to them, like the workplace culture stuff, you know, it just, I don't think it helps that stuff, Neil, do you? No, not at all. They're taking their eyes off the focus of what this is supposed to be about. now it's about this when it should be about, you know, the workplace environment, and the more they continue to, you know, potentially leak stuff or their new small allegations that trickle out,

it's just going to continue to be what people are talking about and not talking about the real important stuff of the toxic workplace culture and the, you know, potentially even what the NFL did or did not do to it in some ways the NFL might be happy with this because, you know, it also takes a little bit of a distraction about what was going on with Deshawn Watson up in Cleveland. You know, another similar situation. You know, let them fight about this, where they know what the – the NFL probably knows what the truth is on this one.

They're probably not really concerned. It's, you know, it's the way that business is done between the parties. And the other aspect was that Gutman even talked about yesterday was, like, oh, you know, the discussion of there might have been two books. Well, government said there might be three or four books because you're going to have a different type of book for each different type of auditor, and then also probably one for the IRS, because different things may define revenue differently. And so, you know, you very well might keep two books or three books or four books. So, you know, nothing, there's no revelations that have come out yet that is a smoking gun.

and this additional information about Friedman and then, you know, the comeback by the team, you know, really puts everything back in flux, and that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about the other stuff. Yeah, again, you know, it's very possible that A.J. Perez is right, and there's other allegations coming soon with respect to other financial improprieties, with other people in addition to Jason Friedman and that Jason Friedman's turned over some evidence rather than some of the pushback that there's been no evidence.

So we'll see on that. But, you know, that is almost separate from the statement from Lisa Banks representing her client, Jason Freeman, Friedman claiming that the commander's statement defamed her client and then through this statement admitted essentially that he had provided, you know, he had testified truthfully with evidence while under an NDA. And, you know, and the team never even mentioned him. And now the team saying, go ahead, bring on the defamation lawsuit.

Let's see it. So on that front, that's kind of separate from, you know, whether or not what Friedman provided is true or not. You know, this is almost a separate issue altogether. But anyway, I don't know where it goes from here. I mean, trying to guess where it goes from here is nuts. But, you know, as we've talked about many times, for those of us that hope that there's something there, you know, I think my gut tells me, there better be something here or too many swings and misses, and all of a sudden that gives him, Snyder,

and the others in that organization, almost kind of a public opinion leg to stand on. I mean, in some ways, Kevin, this is almost a very similar situation as to when this entire thing began, when we kept hearing rumors about, oh, there's this, you know, this big revelation that's going to come out in the post. Everyone was, you know, talking on the different stations. Oh, there's this, there's that, there's this. And then when the finally, the Washington Post article comes out, the team is so happy with the article,

they start sending it around because, look, it's not as bad as everyone thought it was. I still find that little period of time in July of 2020 to be simply amazing. Everybody in town in sports media and other media knows that a bombshell story is going to drop from the Washington Post. And then the speculation starts about what the story is about. And clearly there was something going on with some India media company. and they're spreading rumors about Snyder and drug trafficking and sex parties and Jeffrey Epstein. The article comes out and it claims that, you know, they've got 15 plus women claiming a sexual harassment workplace, a misogynistic workplace, a workplace of bullying and intimidation, a real serious story. And it looks benign compared to the rumors that preceded them so much so that the team itself,

sent out the post story to all of their clients to say, hey, all that stuff you heard about Jeffrey Epstein, that wasn't true. This, the stuff about sexual harassment and a terrible workplace for our employees, especially our female employees, this is true. I mean, that's really amazing in hindsight, right? I mean, but that's the way they felt. And, you know, it's not exactly apples to apples, but your point is a good one. it's like if all of a sudden there's no defamation lawsuit, if all of a sudden this kind of fizzles,

then it's like they've got a chance to say, look, you know, the Tiffany Johnston stuff, you know, didn't go anywhere, nothing was proven. This, you know, ticket scam story didn't go anywhere. They're just, they're coming after them with everything and it's, and too much of it isn't, you know, connecting. So, I don't know. We'll see. Hopefully something will connect and connect soon. What else? Where's, what else you got on your mind? You know what? It's noon. Something will change by six.

All right. Well, I'll call you back at six. The podcast will already be out, but I'm sure something else will come out. Thanks for doing this. All right. Take care. Neil and Rockville, long-time Montgomery County attorney and a big-time friend of the show. So let's get to the national championship game last night. And here we go. Manick circling around and slipped underneath. They go to love. Love's going to be the one to take it. puts up the shot.

It's off. The game is over. And Kansas completes the biggest championship comeback. All time. Well, they had a look at it there at the end. You know, the play that they were designing, if you go back and watch, you know, with 4.3 seconds left, Caroline is trying to set up a cross-court pass with Brady Manick coming off kind of a low-block screen, but he stumbled.

I don't think there was much contact there, certainly not enough for there to have been a foul called against Kansas. He stumbled, and Johnson had to throw it in to Love, who got some space, had a chance there on the final shot to tie it and force overtime, but he missed the shot. By the way, I had a friend of mine calling me today, and he said that a friend of his bet $100 on the final score as a prop bet, 72 to $69. He bet on that would be the final score, Kansas 72, North Carolina, 69. And on a $100 bet, it paid $24,000. I believe the story, because it's a good friend of mine who gambles a lot and the friend of his gambles a lot. and I said, it doesn't even sound like a bet he would make. He said, yeah, he was just fooling around and he threw in a couple of prop bets right before the game started.

And one of them was on the final score, and he got it right. Anyway, really good championship game last night following what was an incredible semi-final game. And Barry's Verluga is going to join us on the show from Augusta. We'll get his thoughts on the announcement just moments ago, actually, the Tiger Woods is going to play. the masters incredibly. We'll ask Barry whether or not he thinks Tiger has a chance. But really the purpose for getting Barry on the show was to talk about Duke and Duke getting ousted and Barry's a big Duke guy, went to Duke. And we've had so many conversations over the years about Shoshiewski. So that's why Barry will be joining us here in a bit. On the game last night,

you know, that first half, Carolina had that 16-0 run at 20. 2222, which automatically made the Kansas comeback the largest in championship game history, being down 16 at any point during the game. And the 15-point deficit at halftime was the largest deficit ever overcome. But that first half was all about North Carolina and the second chance points that they had. And in fact, that was really the story of the night for Carolina. 24 offensive rebounds for the heels. They out-rebounds. They rebounded Kansas by 20 in the game overall. But their 24 offensive rebounds just led to so many second chance points.

They had 18 at halftime, had more in the second half. They only shot 31.5% from the field and 21.5% from behind the arc. You know, Caleb Love, who had the big game Saturday in the win over Duke when he went for 28 points on 11 of 20 shooting was 5 of 24. last night, and that was a killer because the back court, which I really think in many ways, was as important to Carolina's run here, as was Armando Baycott, who was sensational, and we'll get to the injury that he had at the end here in a moment. But the back court of Davis and Love has been so important, and they play so many minutes. I mean, Davis never came out of the game, but the two of them last night shot a combined 10 for 41 from the field.

10 for 41 from the field, one for 13 from behind the arc. I thought Davis was really big for them in a second half after the Kansas run, which I'll get to in a moment. But, you know, when your back court ends up going 10 for 41 overall and 1 for 13 from behind the arc in college basketball, even with teams like the two teams last night that really rely on kind of going inside out, it's still really hard to overcome. But yet, North Carolina was sitting there with that big halftime lead after that big run that gave them a 16-point lead,

but they're up 40 to 25. Now, Kansas has been a second-half team, and they had outscored Miami after being down six at halftime in the Elite 8 game, 47 to 15 in the second half, as they blew Miami out. by 26 points in that game. I didn't see this coming last night, but the key to it I really think was the start. You know, it's very possible that Carolina, 48 hours later, after, you know, an unbelievable thrilling, you know, one of the all-time program wins, even though they've got six national championships, their semi-final win, final win over Duke.

And by the way, not playing much of a bench at all. I mean, Hubert Davis the other day only had 30. 13 minutes of playing time off the bench. Their starters basically go almost the whole way. It's so unique in college basketball. But even knowing that there may be some physical, you know, tired legs for Carolina, up 15, I didn't think they were going to lose the game. I didn't.

And I thought the start for Kansas was the most important thing because literally by the time you got to the under-send, 16 timeout. They had cut a 15 point lead to 8. When you got to the under 12 timeout, you were already at a one point game. And so they did it so quickly. And with such force, I mean, they really, they were making shots from all over. They were getting stops. They were forcing turnovers. And all of the sudden, within minutes, you know, within two television timeouts, scheduled television timeouts. It went from 15 down to 1. And then they continued that with a 31 to 10 overall run to start the second half. And they took a six-point lead. And at that

point, it looked like they were going to run away and hide. But man, just like the Carolina Duke game where Carolina fell behind and then they got on a roll. And I thought it was R.J. Davis's two big shots on back-to-back possessions where they went from 5650 back to a two-point game at 5654. And then they got incredible play off the bench, which they haven't been used to getting from Puff Johnson, who came off the bench, 11.6 rebounds before he literally vomited on the floor from exhaustion. He got hit in the chest. He was trying to signal to Hubert Davis, hey, take me out.

and Davis was kind of not really paying attention to him. He's like, you're going too well. I'm not taking you out. And then he fell to the floor, vomited all over the floor. What a game from him off the bench. But Remy Martin was huge for Kansas. A guy that couldn't hit the broadside of a barn early in the game got super hot as a shot maker, knocking down threes, knocking down a bunch of shots.

This was a guy that led the Pac-12 in scoring last year when he was at Arizona. Arizona State and hadn't had a big time scoring year at Kansas, but he came through last night. And then you got down to the last few minutes of the game. And, you know, it was back and forth, the drama that we had had in the semifinal the other night. Remy Martin makes a three to give Kansas a 68, 65 lead. Then Caleb Love scores. And then Brady Manick has a tip in on a missed Caleb Love shot. and Carolina's got the lead with a minute and a half to go, 69, 68.

McCormick came up huge for Kansas with the first jump hook to give them the lead with a minute 20 left. And then what I thought was, you know, a weird sequence down the stretch. You know, so if you haven't seen the video yet, Armando Baycott, who turned his ankle in the semifinal game and then played last night, had a double double in the first half, ended up with 15 and 15 in the game. Such an important player, such a great player, really, during this particular season, and certainly during Carolina's run to this championship game. So down one after, with the ball, he turns an ankle on a floorboard that was loose. I don't know if you've seen that video or not.

He rolls his ankle again. Kansas has possession of the ball up one and they've got a chance with 45 seconds to go five on four to get a two for one which you should be thinking about in that spot anyway you know you don't want to miss a shot with under 30 and then potentially lose on a walkoff shot from Carolina go for the two for one you've got plenty of time

try to take a three point lead and even if you miss you're going to get the ball back for a possession if Carolina scores on the other end. But they had the additional incentive to try to go for the two for one because Baycott's on the floor. He's getting up slowly and they're playing five on four on the offensive end. But they pulled the ball back out. Couldn't believe that. I thought it was a big mistake.

They pulled the ball out and at that point the referee blew his whistle because Baycott needed to be attended to. They don't blow their whistle if the other team has an advantage and they're aggressive in trying to take advantage of, you know, the man being down on the offensive end. But once they settle in and decide we're not going to try to score and the play kind of comes to a neutral situation, the referee is instructed to blow his whistle.

Gene Stereator gave us the explanation. So Baycott comes out. It's still Kansas's ball. They've now gone beyond the two-for-one. opportunity in the five on four advantage in terms of the plus one player on the floor. But they did score on another McCormick jump hook in the lane against a smaller player with Baycott out. They're up three.

Carolina comes down, I thought they were way too impatient. They could have gone for two. Love pulled up from way too deep, missed badly. Johnson off a Davis rebound in a pass missed. Manick had a rebound, threw it out of baseball. bounds, and with 4.6 seconds left, Kansas has the ball up three. Now, if you bet the game last night, the line was four. If you had Kansas laying the four, you're like, ah, we're going to win this bet. They're going to foul. It would have been one and one on the other end, but you get two free throws.

You're up five, and more likely than not, you win it. If you had Carolina plus the four, you felt sick in that moment because you saw a team that, you know, had a 15 point lead at halftime and you're in a one-point game either way down the stretch and you were staring a four or a five-point loss in the face. But Kansas runs a really good in-bounds pass to get the ball in-bounds to Harris and he steps out of bounds on this sideline. Carolina gets one last shot. That was the play you heard coming in. Love gets the look from three and misses it and Kansas is your national champion. Mark Emmert, the head of the NCAA up there, calling them the Kansas City Jayhawks at the end of the game. Weird. Not to mention, it will be, you know, Kansas is under

NCAA investigation right now. We'll see what happens. There's trouble brewing back in Lawrence. This NCAA investigation's been hovering over this program for a while, and it could produce serious penalties for the Kansas program. We shall see. Great championship game. Carolina blowing the big league. Kansas, you know, roaring back will be a memorable championship game. But make no mistake.

This Final Four will be remembered for what happened on Saturday night. The Duke, North Carolina matchup in the tournament for the first time. North Carolina ending coach Kay's career on that particular night. And the tournament itself, I mean, it was a pretty day. am good tournament. You know, I was talking to Naki this morning on the radio show. He mentioned, he goes, the worst loss of this tournament was the Purdue loss to St. Peters. I completely agree with him. You know, it's one thing to lose to St. Peters in the first round when you don't know much about them. But there they were in the Sweet 16, having beaten Kentucky and Murray State. You know,

you knew that they were capable and you still lost to them with a much better, more talented team. That's a tough loss for Matt Painter. The Big Ten underperformed for the second straight year in the tournament. The ACC, which was being bashed by everybody, yours truly included, overperformed. But the Big 12 was the best league all year in the net rankings, and they, the Big 12, produced the national champion. I still think that Houston really had a chance to win this tournament

if they just could have made a couple of easy shots in the second half against Villanova. I think Villanova, with a healthy Justin Moore, may have knocked off Kansas and would have been playing Carolina last night. But a totally just from in terms of a quality of team standpoint champion in Kansas, but a memorable tournament certainly for what happened in the final four between North Carolina and Duke. All right, Barry's Verlugal will join us in a few minutes, but John Kime is going to join us next. We're going to talk primarily some football stuff with John,

right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's talk some ball instead of talking defamation lawsuits and the like. John Kime joins me right now. John underscore Kime on Twitter. John's got his own podcast. You can listen to it wherever you get a podcast. and everybody knows that John writes for ESPN.com. And he had a story out late last night,

which I was reading from moments ago, titled, After Landing Carson Wentz, Ron Rivera says commanders should be ascending. And when asked John about kind of this pressure of the third year, which he's been talking about since the season ended, The third year of his program in Carolina was a success, and he believes that this is the big year for him in Washington. And, you know, you asked him in your discussion with him if he feels the pressure, and he said, I do feel it. This is the year that says we're going to ascend, and we should be ascending, closed quote.

What happens if this isn't a season of ascending for him? Well, I think, like, as far as the pressure goes, I didn't, you know, it's funny because he said that, but I didn't get the sense from him that he feels like, you know, I've been around coaches who are on that going into that hot seat, and there's a different sense. I don't get that with him, first of all. But I think he feels the pressure to show that the program is heading the right direction. And I think he knows, like, as you've talked about, he's talked about that third year. I even had, I talked to Joe Banner, former NFL team president about the third year. Like, if you are building it right, if you did the, the first two years right, this is when it starts to show up. And I think, you know, obviously Ron knows that. And then getting the quarterback as well, a guy that you think, you know, however long you think he'll be there, he is your guy right now, no doubt. So you've kind of tied yourself to him at least a little bit. And so I think that's where some of that comes into.

Like, okay, you wind up right here, you did it. You know, you want to, you had two losing seasons, even though he'll point out, rightly that they did win the division. So they had a playoff season. But you need to take that step. So I think there's pressure for him to take that step. Doesn't mean he feels pressure that if they go, you know, eight and nine that he's going to get fired, I don't get that sense at all.

But you feel pressure to show that what you're doing is working. And just like it did in Carolina, that third year was a big year for them, which is why he often draws parallels to that time. Now, of course, at that time, he had Cam Newton, who was truly ascended. So there was a little bit of different. there, but it was the third year of a program, and if you're building it right, this is when it starts to show up. I get that.

I get that you didn't get this sense from him that, you know, he feels like he's on the hot seat. And by the way, I don't feel that way either about him. Things could change, obviously, if they went four and 13, or started off 0.6 or 0.7. But I guess other than the, you know, the reason of needing to market his team and create some excitement for their team and this upcoming season, which I get, you know, because they have to sell tickets now. I think he's really increasing expectations for himself and his team that he doesn't need to create. And that's a fair point, and that's because it has been something that he's

talked about a lot. So everything is going to be measured against his off this year during the season will be measured against his off-season comments. And so, yeah, I think that's a fair way to look at it. And, you know, last season, one thing he did talk about, too, was maybe they, and he even brought this up in the interview that the first year is a little bit of an anomaly as far as making the playoff. But seven wins in your first year is like, that was a good increase, but they also benefited from the NFC East.

And so if they had just gone seven and nine, but you don't win the division because it's a normal year, then do people look at you differently for the next year? But I don't think, you know what Kevin, having said that, I don't think so, because whenever I'd look at them, I wouldn't think, oh, NSCE champions, they have to take a step. I would look at you increased your win total. You got seven wins. The next step is a few more, correct? So that's how I was looking at.

It wasn't because they won the division is because you did take a step. you did seemingly build his defense. And he would also talk about the lack of maturity. And I think for him, I think, you know, there is a hope that some of that stuff will not be as pronounced this year, which would allow that to take the other step. But I do agree that, you know, by constantly talking about it, just like with the quarterback, they talked about it a lot, but you knew you're going to be aggressive to get one. And maybe, you know, did you give up too much to do it?

Well, I think they felt like they had to get one. not just because they talked about it so much, but because they really, really, really wanted to find one. Yeah, I think last year, and you're right, it was seven wins and it was, you know, a weird year in the NFC East in 2020, and it was a COVID year, all that stuff. But there's no doubt that, you know, coming off of last year and a close loss to Tampa in the playoffs with Taylor Heineke,

and the perception of a truly ascending defense with a, defensive star, that the expectations coming into this season were much higher, I think, than they will be from most normal fans going into next year. And that's where, you know, I look at this and I say, well, there was reason to be optimistic. You know, even though I think, you know, the narrative on the Tampa playoff game was a little bit exaggerated, the bottom line is people thought, you know, you had a top five defense and you had Ryan Fitzpatrick and you know you had a bad division and you had a chance maybe this year to win nine or ten and be in the playoffs again and they didn't and now that there's major questions

about the defense that weren't here last year there's still questions about the quarterback in most people's minds even though they traded for Carson Wentz and I just think the expectations are down compared to last year but you know he's trying to raise them now again they've got to sell tickets I get I get all that but you know part of the expectation raise, even though he started this conversation when the season ended. But he kind of really up the ante, I think, in your story. And to me, it's because of Carson Wentz. So talk about what you truly feel they feel about Carson Wentz and how much they've

upgraded. Well, honestly, I would do, I mean, a definite upgrade is how I was phrased in their eyes. I think where they feel like they've upgraded is in the ability to use the entire field. And whether it's just on the downfield throws, downfield over the middle, the shallow crossers, where, you know, you have the ability, you've got the ability to see over the line. So you're going to be more on, in theory, they believe they'd be more on time with some of those slants, a quick game. It's a big part of the discussions when I hear talk to people over there.

They feel like that will be improved. So I think they feel like, you know, yes, they know the flaws that Carson Went possesses. You know, they're on film. We can see them. You know, any quarterback that they would have gotten this off season outside of, and even Russell Wilson, they're always saying, well, there's a, I mean, I love Russell Wilson, but there's always a, there's always a counter to just about every quarterback out there, with Wences a few more.

If they had traded for Garopolo, which was a real possibility until he had the shoulder surgery, then there would be questions about him, too. So, yes, there are, of course, about him, but they do see a big strong-arm quarterback, somebody who doesn't, who can be a little bit more on time in all areas of field because of the villages, feel over the lines, et cetera. So I think that's why I say, you know, definite, definite upgrade. And, yeah. Does has Ron admitted at any point, and maybe he hasn't admitted it because he doesn't believe it?

but do you think has he discussed at all that they're getting a quarterback that actually has legitimate baggage attached to him or not? Do they know that? Do they have that sense or not? Well, I think, listen, anybody, I mean, they definitely talked to people, a lot of people about him, people who coached him, and they heard the flaws. They heard the concerns or the, I guess, you know, whatever about him. So I don't think they're going into this with closed eyes.

I think they have some open eyes. But when you look at him, it's funny because there was a lot of excitement or buzz with Ryan Fitzpatrick last year. And he's not the same quarterback as Carson Went. You know what I mean? Carson Wentz has been much more accomplished early in the career. And so, but yes, I mean, he's not the same quarterback as Carson Went. But, yes, I do think that they have eyes open to him,

but I also think that you look at the quarterback play here, not just last but the last several, and that's why you're going to say, well, you know, you're going to overlook some of those things because it's just been, it's not been at that level the last several years, regardless of who's in there. And while Alex said that some great traits, he was not a great passer anymore.

And it was not a dynamic offense with him. So I think they feel like they have more of a chance to use guys in their strengths, like Diami Brown, et cetera. You mentioned something in passing, and I wrote the note down when you said it. You said that Garoppolo was a real, that Garoppolo before the surgery was a possibility for them. Oh, yeah. So I don't know if you've already reported that and I just missed it. So was Garapolo, would Garapolo have been the move had he not had surgery before Wentz?

And after Wilson, obviously Wilson, you know, was number one and they went hard after Wilson. That failed. And then we know they went after Wentz. We don't know about the Trubisky thing. I think you may have a sense about the Trubisky thing. But where does Garopolo fit in on sort of the priority list? And I can't say for sure because the timing of every. thing is a little bit off.

For example, at one point, they did not think Carson Wentz would be available. So is that when maybe Garapola would have been a more likely choice? Possibly. You know, so, but when they, you know, so I can't, and, you know, at a timing of when his

shoulder surgery was announced, again, I don't think they knew that Wentz would be available because they did check on him. And they were told initially that, no, he's not available. So it's hard to say that he would have been the guy. But like if he had been the guy, if Wenz never became available, and Garoppolo doesn't have a shoulder surgery, then, yeah, I think he'd have been the guy.

But that's not how it transpired in terms of because he did need the surgery, and then Wynce did become available. So I don't know the whole timing of the situation. But what you're saying, though, John, is that they liked Garapolo. Well, you're not saying that because, I mean, look, it became pretty clear when the season ended that there was a chance whence was going to be available. I mean, Ballard and they were telegraphing it. Right. What they heard was that he was not.

Initially, the initial call, and a part of it was, too, that if you trade him, what do you have? So that's why for the Colts initially it wasn't like that because they didn't know, like, what's your alternative? That was always a hard question for anybody to answer any quarterback situation. But you knew Garapolo was available. So that's why I think like at that time early on, you know, and that was like, you know, I heard of Washington and a couple other teams were in on Garoppolo initially, but that shoulder surgery was not a help to him or the situation. So I don't know where he was on the list in relation to Carson went or anything like that.

I just know that there were a few guys that they liked, but I know that the health was a concern for them. And then once the shoulder came on there, it was like, you can't be able to it. let's let's recklessly speculate here. Let's have some fun here, all right? Because it's reckless, but it's also somewhat informed, because this is intriguing to me now all of a sudden. The Garoppolo, you know, you tried to kind of throw it away, use it as a throwaway comment, but I'm intrigued by this.

Let's just say that Plan A was the bucket of Wilson, Rogers, Watson, and the guy that was legitimately potentially available to them was Wilson, and they fail on that. That's Plan A. You agree with that, right? That was their plan A in the offseason. So what was Plan B? Was it Tribusky?

Was it Garapolo before the surgery? Was it Wentz? I mean, what was Plan B? That's where I can't. Well, I want to recklessly speculate. Let's guess. I can't recklessly speculate. You would with me if we weren't recording this.

All right, let's not recklessly speculate. But let's, let me... Because I'd have to go back and look at the timing of everything with this. When was the surgery announced? We knew that fairly early in this process for them. So that's why I say, it's hard for me to go back and say, would he have been the guy? I can't say that.

What about Trebisky? What about Trubisky? Well, I think by their actions, we saw that. And I think the fear with Trubisky, you know, while I know that there was certainly some intrigue with him, there was also a some other teams are going to want him too. So if you wait, if you wait till free agency to try and sign him, what happens if you don't get him? That was the question. But yeah, there was definite some definite intrigue there as well.

But with him, it was, that's why the Wendt thing became a desired target for them, because you could control that if you just made the right pick. And so, like, so for them, and even Ron Rivera brought this up a number of times. Nobody remembers what the Rams gave up for Matthew Stafford. And I'm not saying, you know, this is not saying Wendt's Stafford, but the point is, if it works out, if you care, if Wensk goes out there and plays well, you think people are going to care that they gave up a third and the second for him? no, but if he doesn't, then of course. But the whole point was, now you have your guy, whereas you don't have to wait and then getting to maybe a bidding war for Mitch Tribusky with Pittsburgh or whomever else would have gone after him.

You know, so that, you know, I know that there was a desire from, you know, on Trubisky side, I think there was an intrigue with this roster and felt like it would be a good place for him. But of course, if you're on Trubisky side, you want this team involved, because now you have a couple guys going at him, right? So it would have driven up his price a little bit more. But yeah, so I think that was a big part of it was the ability to control the situation more and then enter free agency knowing more of what you could and couldn't do with your money.

So I think that was a big part of it as well. I think the plan A is what we discussed, you know, the bucket of the elite guys, Wilson, Rogers, Watson, etc. you know, Derek Carr, I don't think, was ever going to be available legitimately. And then Plan B was kind of this bucket of Tribisky, I'll throw Wentson to it. And, you know, you've said that they did like Garoppolo pre-surgery. So that may have been, you know, all part of Plan B. And then Garapolo had the surgery, and Tribisky, you know, sort of controlled his own fate because he was a free agent.

And then when they missed on Wilson, you know, I don't think there's any doubt that they felt like they better get Wentz or they were going to end up like Carolina is right now, and that's without a guy. And then Plan C would have been, I guess, the draft. Yeah, and I don't think that was, I don't, that certainly wasn't the desired way to go because even with the draft, you still had to get another guy in. Right. Because if they had gone, let's say they stay at 11 and you go, Malik Willis. Well, they knew that Malik Willis isn't ready to go play right now. So you have to have another guy. So you still would have had to have gotten a guy.

I do think that Wrench was certainly more their plan B than Trabiski was because. You do, okay. Because of how aggressive they went out and got him. And so, you know, I do think that. I think that Trubisky would have been next. Just because with Trabisky, what you get is, whatever he plays, I don't, you know, we'll see, but is he a huge upgrade over Taylor Heineke? I think I talk to some people who would say no.

And so, but what you would get is if you got an experienced starter and you don't have to give up the draft capital and you don't have to give up the same money. But are you, you know, I think Wentz is a better quarterback overall with all his flaws. And so, but yeah, so that's why I say, I think. that Wents would have been higher in that. I did, like I said, with Garoppolo, the hard part is the timing of everything means that, you know, when you're really able to go be aggressive with it, I don't know that Garoppola was a real option because of that. And I do know early in the process, even, it was there was concern about his health.

And then what would it cost to not just trade for him, but then what are you going to have to pay him? Because one benefit of Wrenz, listen, if Wynne, if Wendt, if Wendt, hit. Yeah, they've got him under contract for three years. Well, under 30. We're under 30, and anymore, that's a big benefit. So that's why I think he's a, there's a track there where it's with Garapolo, if he doesn't have a surgery, you get him, now you're going up into the 35 range for him. And my own take on him, and I told people that, like, some people

here and elsewhere, like, I think Jimmy was in the most perfect place for him right now. So whatever he is right now, I think that's the best he's probably going to be. And he was, I think he was good for Sam to score at times, right? I mean, there are qualities I really like that he has, and other

qualities, the same thing with a lot of these quarterbacks. He just say, well, not a fan of this, but I do like, like, he is a quick twitch throw, and that matters to them. They really wanted that. And I think Wrenf has some of that, too. I think that got Garoppola in trouble at times. But he had the run game.

You had the defense. He had a, you know, he had, as one of the games' best play calls at Kyle Shanahan. Not that anybody here should, you know, like, this isn't a slight on anybody here, but it's like, can you give him the same? And if, you know, can you improve, help him improve upon where he was? I think that was a tough thing. But, you know, yeah, I mean, I, so I don't know where it was in the pecking order, but it was certainly somebody that would have been certainly on that list.

And then it would have been interesting if both went and, Garopolo available, I don't know where it goes. You know, it's interesting as you're talking, because remember, you know, the story, I think you had the story about his trip down to Charlotte and the day that he spent with Gibbs and talking about the quarterback qualities and the size and, you know, the quick twitch, the quick release. And that is Jimmy Garoppolo. I mean, Jimmy's six, you know, Jimmy isn't six five in 240, but he's six three and has a

super quick release. You know, all. of this conversation, and this isn't meant to be piling on for those of you that are big Taylor Heineckee fans, but, you know, it really does, you know, it really puts to a close the argument about whether or not they would, you know, if they didn't get anybody else, they were just going to move forward with Taylor Heineke and they'd be fine with it. They desperately tried to replace them or, you know, find somebody else last year. This was the priority this year. You just said essentially, like, even if they didn't get Wentz and they had to draft somebody, they were still going to have to go out and get another veteran quarterback.

I agree with that. And so, but Heineke, you know, is to them a really good backup, you know, and they want them to. Yeah, nothing wrong with that, too. Yeah, nothing wrong with that. What's next? What's next here in Free Agency? What's next before the draft? and we'll finish up with the draft.

Is there anything you think they're going to do here soon? Probably not because I think you get to this point, keep in mind that they know they've added guys after the draft, especially last year. Like you get Leno, you get flowers after the draft. They've added guys after the draft each of the last couple of years who has helped their team. And so, you know, I think that keep that in mind, right?

So I don't think you're going to see any sort of, certainly not going to see any sort of big move at this point by any means. Because you know that, like, so if you go on the draft and you don't get position X, some other team is going to get a guy, like, say, like, if they don't get a lineback, someone's going to get a lineback in the draft and may end up cut, and will probably cut one of their starters because of that. That guy becomes available, now that guy becomes an option here. So I think that's what you're looking at,

for this team is that go through the draft, see what you do, and then see what you still need and fill that after teams make more moves like they did last year. Last one for John. You know, as part of the whole ESPN family, I'm sure you get asked all the time to mock for Washington in the upcoming draft. So what's your latest, you know, mock pick for Washington when you've been on the board here? Well, see, and here's the other thing, like, I stay away from a lot of those because we do our own thing, but I will say, and here's the tricky part with this, Kevin. So I'm going to give you a name that I, like, could a, this would be one of those, could you see them falling in there?

Yes, under a certain scenario. Kyle Hamilton, the kids from Notre Dame, the safety. I would, I think that would be a fantastic pick for them because, but, and there is a scenario where he falls. If these quarterbacks go in the top 10, you're going to two quarterbacks that, you're a good quarterback that. You can have, you know, the feeling I'm getting from people is that you're probably going to see two receivers go top 10, London and Wilson. So there's four guys. You're going to get probably three edge rushers at seven and probably three, very possibly three offensive linemen. That's 10.

There's a safety. Or Gardner. I was going to say you're going to get Gardner two gone before 11 more likely than not. Exactly. Exactly. So that, again, pushes Hamilton down. to me that would be a really good pick for that. And so I think if I had to pick one now,

I could see a board falling a certain way if he's there, I'm taking him because he fills that buffalo and nickel roll for them, which is a huge thing for them. And, you know, yeah, I could, I could, I could, I mean, I could see that happening. You know what? You know what? I wouldn't mind it. I think he's a great player, his instincts, his leadership, his size, Everything about him says possibility of being a dominant safety.

Yeah. But have you completely written off quarterback at 11? Yes. Okay. I have. Okay. The other spot would be, you know, is there a receiver there that falls there? You know, Drake Lennon has the side.

I think Olavee would be, Chris O'Lahe from Ohio State would be a really intriguing player. You're an Ohio State guy. Do you like Wilson or Olave? I like them both for different. I think they're both. Now, let me say this. The kid next year is going to be really tremendous, and Jigb is going to be phenomenal.

But I like him for different reasons. And so, you know, if I had to pick one of the two, it depends on the day. Some days, it's like, I love Wilson. I think because the guy's got tremendous hands. He's got a wide catch rate. I think he's a better runner than people probably realize, and especially in a short game,

but I think he's a little bit more physical, a little bit more than a lot of the law. not a physical, physical guy, but man, is he a smooth route runner? And I think that's where you see some separation. I think Wilson's a terrific route runner, but I think they're different. I think Olav has been more of a deep threat for them, and I think so he gives you something to go along with what you have, right? And I think he also could be very good in that quick game, too, the shallow crossers and use the speed there. So I think that's a, you know, so I like them both for different reasons. If I had to pick one of the,

other. Some days I'd say Wilson, and then, you know, probably my inclination would be to say him, but, you know, I think Olavé probably exceeded expectations a lot more than Wiltson did at Ohio State, given what the hype was around them when they came in. So I'm a big fan of Olave. We'll talk Terry McLaren and Duran Payne and all the other stuff another time. Thanks for doing this at John underscore Kime. The John Kime Report podcast. You get it anywhere. You get a podcast. John, thank you. I appreciate it as always. Always enjoy, Kevin. You know that. Barry's Verluga next, right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Rate us and review us on Apple and Spotify. Five stars, quick one to two sentence review always helps out. Thank you for all of you that have done that recently. Joining us on the show right now is Barry's Verluga from the Washington Post. Barry is in Augusta. The Masters gets underway Thursday. We'll get to that topic in Tiger Woods here in a moment. But I want to start with the final four.

I know you were in New Orleans, but not last night for the final. And the reason I reached out to you is Barry, most of you know, is a Duke guy. And we've had so many great conversations over the years about ACC basketball in Duke and Maryland and the whole league. I wanted to start with how devastating was it for Duke Nation to lose the final game at Cameron Indoor with Coach K and then on Saturday night to Carolina because I've got this sense, Barry, that for North Carolina fans, both of these wins are like top five all time. So that's where I was going to start, Kevin, is exactly flipping that around and saying, what did this mean to Carolina? And I literally was just talking to a Carolina friend of mine

here at Augusta saying exactly what you said. The two of the top five wins in Carolina history, and this is a program that has won the third most games of any program in history, occurred in the last month. You throw in there, obviously, Jordan's shot against Georgetown in 1982, probably the Chris Weber timeout game in 1993 when they won the national title. But, you know, Roy Williams won three titles in his tenure in Chapel Hill. And I would say that these two wins that occurred over the last month would, you know, kind of supersede any of those national championship games just because not just the joy it brought to the Carolina people, but because of the misery it inflicted on Duke.

And then to go back to your original point about how bad was it for Duke people, I was seated on the side of the court where when I left and went into the tunnel, I had to walk through the Duke student section at the end of the game. And you're walking by 20-year-old kids who all of a sudden look completely ashen-faced and dead, like all the blood had been drained out of them. And you think about how that night was supposed to go for them. You're in New Orleans. You're a 21-year-old kid. It's the best place to be when your team is winning in the final four. And now you're faced with an evening on Bourbon Street where not only are you in a bad mood, but you're going to see all these Carolina Blue kids just ready to throw it in your face.

It was, I think, I think Shoshchewski's final season will be remembered as a success for Duke people, because it did end with a final four that broke the record with Wooden, his 13th Final Four. But you could not have predicted the abject misery that losing a pretty epic game to your arch rival, how that felt. You and I can have this conversation, but people from the outside, I don't think understand it as much because people have criticized me for taking joy and being thrilled with Carolina winning these two games over Duke. So I would ask you, what do you think as a Duke person of the reaction of really more specifically? And I know Duke's a very polarizing program, and there are people that love K or hate K,

even if they've got no affiliation to the ACC. But what do you think of people like me who were literally on the edge of my seat when Carolina made that run at Cameron Indoor, thrilled by it? and then the same on Saturday night. I have begrudge no one anything. I mean, sports should be able to bring out emotion and allegiance, and the genesis of all that doesn't really matter to me. I mean, it can be because you find a particular character,

villainous, and, and, you know, I would, I think that the best part of sports outside of the arena is the debates that it brings about. So, you know, we could debate, like, Shisholski's genius or his evilness. And I think there's great arguments on both sides of that. So I don't, I mean, I think, Kevin, you would appreciate this. In the Superdome on Saturday night, no one had ever experienced what it would like to have a Duke Carolina game in the Final Four. And the way I've described it in the, you know, whatever it is, 72 hours since then,

is that if you brought expectations as to what that matchup would be like, that's exactly what it was like. It was not louder than a regular Final Four, but a lot more anxiousness, a nervous edge, because the ramifications for either side, not of winning the game, but of losing the game, particularly if you were Duke, was just enormous. It is a card that Carolina people,

can play forever and ever and ever, because John Shire is not going to trump Mike Shishke in terms of a villainous character for a lot of people in college basketball. It's just the emotion is going to be ratcheted back a little bit more. And Carolina people, and then by extension, you know, Maryland people who always hated Duke or whoever else always hit a Duke, they have that card that in Shoshchewski's moment where they would say he was trying to shine the spotlight on him, himself and giving himself this victory tour. He failed in his last game at Cameron and then on this giant unprecedented stage,

which the best rivalry in the sport was, you know, kind of put on a pedestal and his team that is more talented and had a better season and was favored, didn't get it done. So I had Mark Allery on the show on Friday, and I said to him, you know, from my standpoint, and I'm not in your shoes, but I would think that a Duke fan has to be on edge as nervous as they've ever been. And it would be so much easier if you were playing Purdue or Kentucky because the accomplishment of the Final Four would have been good enough.

And he said, no, no, no, no. You're 100% right. He said, the floor for this game if we lose is maybe lower than any game they've ever played. you know, under K. And that led to sort of this edge and this nervousness. Although I have to say, I didn't think watching the game that the players or the staff were tight. I didn't think they played that game tightly.

So I agree. And I think that that's one thing you want to distance yourself from. And I think it's why Hubert Davis reacted to like, oh, is. Monday night going to be a letdown. He's like, are you kidding? I mean, that's how fired up he was in those timeouts. Like, anybody who was suggesting that we as a staff and a team would be, you know, kind of feel some sort of letdown going into a national championship game.

That's an absurd notion. But I do think for the fan base is for outside people, those are absolutely the emotions that came out. And you're right, Kevin. I mean, even though there was an edge in the arena of anxiety and nervousness, That was coming from the fan bases that I would argue that that game was choppy for 10 minutes or so, right? Not great. But then the last 30 minutes, it was basically guys making plays, right?

And yes, Mark Williams, worked a couple free throws, and you could point to that if you were a Duke person. But ultimately, Caleb Love made a three-pointer with somebody in his face that is going to be a shot that's, you know, remembered for Carolina people for a long, long, long time. And Trevor Kiel made plays for Duke, and it was, you know, it was the really, I just, with 78 seconds left in that game, they went to the huddle, and 70,000 people there had no idea who was going to win the game. And the stakes are such, I mean, I would say they're unprecedented in a Final Four situation just because of the rivalry nature of the whole thing. You couldn't have asked for much more. if Duke and Carolina were ever going to play in a Final Four, I think the way it played out, delivered as you would have expected. Yeah, I think it was the most watched Final Four game in several years,

which was not a surprise to me. By the way, the question that I asked you before about how, you know, what you think of people like me and the reaction, I didn't preface it with the old, you know, no offense or no disrespect intended because I think that kind of disclaimer would have been disingenuous. But I would say that while I felt the way I felt, and I know a lot of ACC fans felt the way I felt, at the same time, it's true how great he was and how great he was for the game

and what an incredible force Shishchevsky's been for 42 years. So that leads to this question. What's it going to be like at Duke without him? You know, it's a huge TBD, and I think we've discussed this before. You know, John Shire is 34 years old. He's never run a program small or large, and he is tasked with taking over from the guy who's won more games than anybody in history. And the reason he's tasked with that is surely because he has some great characteristics,

and I'm sure he's a good assistant coach, and I'm sure he knows basketball, and I'm sure he's very smart. But the reality is the reason he's getting that job is because Shishke's former players that have gone on to coach elsewhere have not accomplished enough to become the obvious choice. When Dean Smith and Bill Guthridge left at Carolina, I mean, Dean was going to hand the job to his top assistant, Guthridge, as kind of a reward for all his loyalty, but that was a temporary thing that Roy Williams was the obvious choice. He had

been to Final Four with Kansas. He was running one of the biggest name brand programs in the country, but he was a Carolina alum. That was the obvious, obvious choice. Now, it took an interim period with Matt Doherty before Roy was pried loose from Lawrence, but it

ultimately worked. At Duke, there's no succession plan like that at all because you know, just go down the list. Johnny Dawkins didn't have done at Stanford, Chris Collins took Northwestern to their first NCAA tournament, but hasn't, you know, sustained that success. Steve Wojahowski was fired at Marquette.

Tommy Amaker was fired at Michigan, reestablished himself at Harvard, but is that the right, you know, you hear conflicting things about whether he was in contention for the job. So it just becomes through, you know, you go through the long list. Bobby Hurley hasn't gotten a ton done at Arizona State. There's just no obvious choice. you go to the choice that's immediately on your bench, who hasn't had the chance to fail. And, you know, if you're Steve O'Daharski,

I wonder if you're thinking, well, shoot, if I had never left Duke, I'd be getting that job because I wouldn't have failed at Marquette. So it's an interesting, interesting time. I think Shira will be very easy to recruit against, particularly if he doesn't have success right out of the shoot with a very talented team next year. But your overall question, what's it going to be like?

I just don't know that there's a way to tell. The one thing I would say, because I get asked about this all the time, and there are people that will make these comparisons to Georgetown. It's apples and oranges. Duke had great success with Bill Foster before and other coaches before in terms of final fours, and they've got the most iconic arena on campus in the country. and it's a different brand altogether. I know you're running up against time here,

and we only had a limited amount of time with Barry today. Let's just switch subjects real quickly. Tiger is back. He's playing in the Masters. What kind of chance do you give him? You know, I mean, I think of it a couple different ways. You know, he's played, I think it's 23 Masters at this point. Obviously, he's missed some with injury.

He's only missed the cut once. And that was in 1996 when he was still an amateur, and it was the year before his, you know, breakthrough win in 1997. So I think people who think he's just going to show up and walk around here twice and not play the weekend, or probably off-based. You think about Augusta, too, you start with a number of people who are automatically not going to make the cut because they're, you know, the old, older past champions who are here more as ceremonial golfers than real competitors.

So it's a little bit easier to make the cut here. I think this about Tiger. One, he's evaluated his body, and his body, you know, it's not an evaluation of, can I play nine holes here and be okay. It's all looking through the prism of, can I walk this very, very hilly course and be competitive with the strain of puts on my leg? And the answer to that has to be, yes, that he wouldn't make an evaluation otherwise. I think, you know, it's a stretch to say that you'd get to the back nine on Sunday and he'd be right there.

Although, you know, I guess what we've learned about him over the years is never say never, right? His most recent win here was in 2019. He's 46 years old. He's been through a horrific car crash. My overall takeaway is it's amazing, given all his personal and physical, and other, you know, kind of struggles over the years, it's amazing that he is still without question and without peer, the driving force in this sport.

I mean, Phil Nicholson is not going to be here for the first time in basically three decades, and that is a footnote right now to talking about Tiger and coming back. Enjoy it. It should be wild down there the next few days. I appreciate it. We'll talk soon. Thanks, Kevin.

I appreciate it. Thanks to Barry, thanks to John Kime, thanks to Neal and Rockville. Back tomorrow.