The Kevin Sheehan Show - Schedule Update + Trey Hendrickson News

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Kevin opened today with some NFL Schedule news that affects Washington's opening weekend. Also, some news out of Cincinnati from Trey Hendrickson. Could he still be traded? And where? Kevin talked Wizards "Draft Lottery", Caps-Carolina, NBA Playoffs, and he responded to something Dan Quinn said during Commanders' rookie mini-camp over the weekend. Michael Arkush/"The Golf 100" joined Kevin to talk about his bestselling book ranking the all-time best golfers.  Goldbelly.com, code sheehan, for free shipping and 20% off your first order of food from around the US.  Go To WindowNation.com. Buy 4 windows, get 4 free!Betting on sports? Go to mybookie.ag. Use code KEVINDC for a bonus! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. The NFL schedules two days away from being announced in full, but we did learn something this morning, which narrows down the list of Washington's season opener possibilities.

The show's presenting sponsor is always Windonation, 86690 Nation, windonation.com. If you need new. windows. I've got one guest on the show with me, and if you're a golf fan, I think you're going to enjoy it. Michael Arcush is an author. He's written 15 books. His latest book is titled The Golf 100, a spirited ranking of the greatest players of all time. We are just a few days away from the second major of this spring-summer golf calendar. The PGA Championship starts Thursday at Quail Hollow in Charlotte. So we'll talk a little bit of golf, but really kind of this list that Michael

has put together of the greatest golfers. I mean, the Jack versus Tiger debate is certainly one of the great kind of sports ranking debates that we've had in recent years, that's for sure. Michael Arcush in the final segment of the show talking about his book, The Golf 100. Before I turn to, you know, more schedule talk. I did, if you missed it, I put out my full mock schedule on Saturday show. So if you want to go back and listen to that show, it's pretty quick, the show. And I give you in segments two and three, the entire Washington mock schedule that I put out. I'm already O for one.

I did not get the opener correct. But I will get to some schedule talk here in the open of the show. but there is some news from the NFL this afternoon, and it's interesting news because I do think it's about a player that Washington may have some interest in. So there was this from Adam Schaefter today about Cincinnati Bengals' defensive end, Trey Hendrickson, who said the team has cut off contract talks

amid this dispute regarding a new deal. Remember, just for updating purposes on this story, it started with Trey Hendrickson being granted permission to seek a trade with his agent. They did not find one before the draft. The reporting was that Cincinnati was looking for a first and maybe a first and third, and that teams that were interested, and I do believe that Washington was one of those interested teams were saying that is too rich for us. maybe something like a second and a fourth, but not a first and a third. Because remember, once you trade for Trey Hendrickson, you've got to pay him. And you've got to pay him probably top three money. He's got to be well into the low 30s per year, more likely than not. And so once we got past the draft, I think then the possibility of a, I thought as we got

closer to the draft, the price might drop. Apparently it did not. And then after the draft, it became more likely that the Bengals would just say, yeah, we're not trading you now. We get no draft compensation for the draft just completed. We can't go back and pick players that have already been picked. Let's try to get a deal together. And I think that's where this story has been post-draft is, you know, will Cincinnati come up with an offer that is acceptable to Trey Hendrickson? Well, apparently not so far.

And he put out a statement to Adam Schefter. And the statement read that the offers presented by the Bengals, quote, did not reflect the vision we shared and were promised, closed quote. And then he wrote, quote, rather than using collaboration to get us to a point to bring me home to the team, they are no longer communicating. I've been eagerly awaiting a resolution of this situation, but that's hard to do when there is no discussion and an evident lack of interest in reaching mutual goals, closed quote.

Remember, he was on with McAfee last month before the draft and expressed disappointment with the Bengals' front office about contract talks. And one of the executives, and I'm forgetting her name, but she said something to the effect that he should be happy with kind of what we have proposed. Is he going to ever be happy at any point with what we propose? You know, I'm paraphrasing there, but that was the gist of it. You know, I personally feel like the odds favor him resigning in Cincinnati. I felt that way prior to the draft.

I feel much more strongly about it now. But this has kind of holdout and a big, you know, kind of dispute confrontation. written all over it heading into training camp and maybe, you know, one of those deals that gets done, you know, the day before the regular season or is announced by Schefter on Sunday, September 7th, you know, at 10 a.m. when the pregame shows start, that Hendrickson's reached a deal with the Bengals and is expected to be in uniform next week or something like that. It feels like that. But when you read this, you do wonder whether or not a trade is still in play. I do think Washington would be interested. I don't think they did anything that would make them less interested

in the draft. Obviously, they didn't pick a pass rusher, an edge. The Bengals selected Shamar Stewart at 17 overall. By the way, Stewart refused to work out at rookie minicamp until he had a contract signed. But anyway, moving on from that. Actually, now I'm getting confused. Was that Stuart, or was that the guy Pierce in Atlanta? It may have been Pierce. in Atlanta. Correct me if I'm wrong. You guys might know the answer to that. I may be getting confused between Pierce and Stewart, but two players that I did not think Washington would take. Maybe that's why I'm getting him confused, because I thought Stewart was just a player that had too little production, and Pierce had too many red flags. Pierce ended up going to Atlanta, and the Falcons

traded a future one to get up into the first round to take him. That seemed like the worst deal in the first round. But anyway, I don't know. I mean, could Washington still end up with Trey Hendrickson? Maybe. But I still think he'll end up signing in Cincinnati. And so does Ian Rappaport from the NFL network, because after that statement was put out to ESPN, the NFL networks, Ian Rappaport reported, quote, if the Bengals were going to trade him, it would have happened already. He's upset because he wants and deserves more money. I think Cincinnati will give it to him, even though they haven't yet closed quote. That wasn't necessarily a report. That was a quote from him. I think he was on some show this afternoon, maybe some NFL

network show this afternoon. So there you go. Trey Hendrickson, not very happy. Cincinnati and Hendrickson, not very close. Do they trade him? Does somebody come up with something at this point? Remember, it's 2026 draft compensation at this point that Cincinnati just takes. And then, of course, you do have to pay them and you got to pay them big money. All right, some schedule talk. I put out my mock schedule on Saturday show, May 10th, if you want to go listen to it. my annual mock schedule, Washington's 17 games laid out with dates and times. And yeah, I'm o for one already because my season opener was Washington at Dallas on Sunday night football, September 7th, week one. And what we learned this morning on the NBC Today Show, Mike Tariko doing the news and announcement of Dallas will be Philadelphia.

is week one, night one opponent on Thursday night, September 4th. I mean, there were lots of possibilities for Philly, Washington, Dallas, Chicago, the Rams. They went with the Cowboys. So Dallas and Brian Schottenheimer's debut at Philly on Thursday night, September 4th to open up the season. And then we also learned that it is going to be the Chiefs and the Chargers on night two of the season, Friday night, September 5th in Brazil. So, you know, knowing those two games now, we can cancel out six potential season openers for Washington. You know, Dallas times two, Philly times two, that's four games,

the Chargers and the Chiefs. So that leaves us with 11 possibilities for opening day or opening night or potentially opening Monday night on September 8th. You know, I think you can take the two giant games and toss them. I see Washington opening up in a high-profile game. I still think Sunday night is a really good bet. I thought Sunday night going into my mock schedule was a better bet than opening night against Philadelphia. And I had it against Dallas.

It's not going to be against Dallas. So, you know, who's it going to be against? Could it be a Monday night game instead of a Sunday night game? possibly, but Sunday night is the highest profile, highest exposure, highest rated spot on an NFL normal weekend. Now, on opening weekend, that Thursday night game is going to get the biggest rating of the weekend, typically. Second biggest opportunity on opening weekend is Sunday night football. I think Jaden Daniels and Washington might be in that Sunday night spot still. I'm not going to be right. It's not going to be at Dallas. But there are 11 possibilities for it now.

At the Giants, twice, either at Giants, I'm sorry, at Giants or home against Giants. So two games against the Giants. Chicago at home, Denver at home, at Minnesota, at Atlanta, Detroit at home, at Miami, although I believe the Miami game will be in Madrid. Seattle at home, Vegas at home, or at Green Bay. I think on that list, you can, you know, if you consider like I am, Washington's going to be in a high-profile spot in a marquee kind of matchup on Sunday night football or on Monday night football or on Fox in that 425 window on opening day. If you want to take the Giants games out, all right, we're down to nine.

If you want to take the Miami game in Madrid, if you believe some of the leaks on that. If you believe my mock, we can take that out. We're down to eight games. I think we could cancel out maybe Seattle and Vegas. That gets us down to six possibilities. And those possibilities would be Chicago at home, Denver at home, at Minnesota, Detroit at home, at Green Bay. Those would be the five, because I canceled out Seattle and Vegas. There you go. I think it might be come from that list. Chicago, Denver, Minnesota, and I kind of feel like there's a chance

they're going to open up on the road, so that would really narrow it down to at Minnesota or at Green Bay if I take the Giants in Atlanta out of the equation. I could certainly see now Detroit at home on Sunday night to open up the season. I could see that. That's a growing possibility.

I had Chicago in week two on Monday night football a rematch of the Hail Mary game on Sunday night football to open up the season. Ben Johnson's first game is head coach, Caleb versus Jaden, round two. I could see that too, for sure. Okay, there you go. We're going to learn more tomorrow. You know, again, if it's not Sunday night, I would say if it's not Sunday night football,

that it would be 425 on Fox as part of the double header, week one double header. and then the last of the three possibilities in terms of time slots would be Monday night football. I only say that because if they're not in that Sunday night spot, it's because Fox sort of got what they wanted and got Washington, Detroit, or Washington, Chicago or something like that in the late window. We'll see. And yeah, now I've got to find a new spot to put Dallas, but I'm not redoing the mock. My mock is my mock.

It can be mocked as many of you did, or it can be enjoyed, as it appears, many of you also did. All right, when we come back, something Dan Quinn said over the weekend about his defensive line, and tonight could be a franchise-changing night for the Washington Wizards. That and more after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, guys, I'm about to tell you about the most incredible, unforgettable gift you can get mom. this Mother's Day. Have you heard of Goldbelly? It's this amazing site that I order from now all the time where you can get the most iconic famous foods from restaurants all across the United States. And they'll ship it anywhere across the country for free just in time for Mother's Day.

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My Booky has fair numbers and fair pricing across the board. You don't want to get overcharged by one of these new. places trying to make up for all of their marketing expenses. My bookie's old school. You're going to pay minus 110 typically on a straight bet loss. You shouldn't be paying minus 125 or minus 130 or even minus 122 on a straight bet loss. Go to my bookie. Use my promo code. Kevin D.C. You'll get a cash bonus on your initial deposit. They've got everything you need for NHL, playoff betting. NBA, playoff betting and NFL early futures betting. By the way, I think on Thursday, they'll have their week one point spreads up once this schedule comes out. MyBooky, fair, you get paid when you win,

and you get a free cash bonus when you sign up. MyBooky.ag or mybooky.com promo code Kevin, D.C. Something Dan Quinn said over the weekend I'm going to play for you in about five minutes. but I wanted to start this segment with this. The Wizards could have a franchise-changing moment tonight when the NBA draft lottery takes place 7 p.m. on ESPN. They, along with Utah and Charlotte, have the best odds of getting the number one overall pick, a 14% chance. The number one overall pick in this year's draft means Cooper Flag.

This is the Cooper Flagg. draft. What does that mean? It's not Victor Wembeñama in terms of flags, you know, potential compared to Wembe Nama to totally change a franchise and turn them into a contender. But this would be more on the Zion Williamson, maybe a little bit less than Zion Williamson, in terms of what he was thought of when he came out. But this has been building for nearly two years. This was the, you know, Cooper flag draft and trying to position yourself to get number one overall in this draft would be a good, you know, thing to do. And the Wizards have done a nice job. You know, they have accumulated draft picks beyond, you know, belief. They have certainly put themselves into a position the last two years

to pick very high. Number two last year, they chose Alex Sar. But last year's draft was not the equivalent of this year's draft. By the way, Cooper flag number one, Dylan Harper likely number two, the wing guard from Rutgers. He has a chance to be a great player as well. But here's what Cooper Flagg guarantees. Cooper Flag may not guarantee NBA title contention within three, four, five years, six years. But Cooper Flag will guarantee that the Wizards for the first time in a long time will be talked about. They will be relevant, at least tonight and next year. Until it becomes clear that Cooper Flag isn't what people thought he would become, they're going to be a relevant franchise because of him.

He'll be the first American-born white player drafted number one overall since 1976. That was Kent Benson. He is already a star because of the talk about him as a high school player and then obviously playing one year at Duke. I like Cooper Flag a lot. I love his size. I love his skill. I love his IQ, his competitiveness. He is a great shooter, score, defender, passer, rebounder. He does it all. Who's his comp? It's not Larry Bird. I've heard that as a comp. Let's just slow the role on that. By the way, flags probably a better overall athlete. But this is, you know, guaranteed relevance at least for a year or two.

And it may lead to a top five-ish kind of a player that will allow you to contend for a title down the road. So tonight, 7 o'clock, Wizards, Utah, Charlotte, all with equal chances to land number one overall. The Wizards also have equal chances to pick second, third, and fourth in terms of the highest odds. The best percentages overall is for them to pick either fifth or sixth. The worst they can pick is sixth. This is a draft where tonight is about landing number one overall. Worst case, you'd like to end up with number two overall and have a shot at Dylan Harper. Caps Carolina tonight in game four.

I thought it was interesting on Saturday night. I watched that game. I thought that was clearly the Capp's best game in the series, and they lost four to nothing. go try to figure hockey out. I can't, but that was, I thought, easily, their best start to finish game of the series, and they were down 3-0 early in the third, and couldn't get it by Anderson,

who was outstanding in the game. I thought the Caps had a couple of chances early that if they had gotten the lead with some of the opportunities they had early in the game, that maybe it would have been different. Also, real quickly, I thought that I nearly saw something that it's been confirmed would have been maybe a first in the postseason, and that was the caps on the delayed power play when they almost scored an own goal for Carolina. That would have been just devastating.

Look, if they lose tonight, I don't think they're out of it. It's hockey, man. Down 3-1, they could easily win three in a row. You can't make sense out of these games. team in game one was clearly Carolina, they needed overtime to win. The game was more, you know, tilted a little

bit more towards the caps in game two. They did win that game. And then game three, I thought the caps were clearly the better team for the majority of the 60 minutes and they lost 4 to nothing. We'll see what happens come tonight. But the goaltending, both

goaltenders have been outstanding, I think, in this series. One quick thing before I get to what Quinn said. The NBA playoffs this weekend, you know, I wish I'd thrown out on Friday. I loved Boston on Saturday. They crushed the Knicks. I think that series may be close to over.

I suggested after the Knicks took a 2-0 series lead that the Knicks really needed to win game three or they would be in trouble. They're an underdog, up to one, in a series with game four at home. Look, I don't love watching Boston play. They're just better. And the fact that they shot so poorly from behind the arc in the first two games, and they lost in overtime and then game two by a point, they shot it much better, and they blew out the Knicks. That game was electric to start and then pretty quiet thereafter.

I don't know who wins tonight, but I think even if Boston were to lose tonight, I still like their chances to win in seven. The series that is just really compelling has been this Denver OKC series. The game Friday night, Game 3, Denver 1-113, 104, and overtime, was as intense start to finish as any game in the postseason so far. And both teams at the end of that game, it was one of those knockdown dragouts that just, I thought, was super fascinating and compelling. to watch. I thought OKC would win the game the entire way. It got to overtime and Denver's experience paid off. But they played less than 48 hours game four yesterday. The score at the end of the first quarter was 17 to 8 that tied for the fewest points in a first quarter ever in an NBA

playoff game. It was two teams completely on fumes from the game on Friday night. And that's the way the game played out for much of it. Denver had an opportunity. They were up six in the third quarter. If they could have closed that game out, I think they could have won the series going up 3-1. Oklahoma City came back. They won the game. I think it's Oklahoma City's series to win. Yokic looks out of gas in particular. They can't win without him at a high level. He's not played his best. He's not been as bad as some people have suggested. But that series, man, The Friday night game was insane, and you could just see it. Everybody had tired legs, every shot short for basically a half.

NBA playoffs, 17 to 8 at the end of the first quarter, 42 to 36 at halftime. That's like 90s NBA playoff basketball. It did end 92 to 87, but they, Denver, I don't know if they can win one more in Oklahoma City, which is what they'll need to do. the Warriors look done without Steph unless he were to come back in a 2-2 series right now, you know, Golden State would need to get the game tonight, really, to even that series up at if he comes back in time for game five and they're down 3-1, it's over. All right, so minicamp was this weekend, no real big storylines from rookie minicamp.

There really never are. I thought it was interesting. I mentioned this on radio this morning. There was a lot of angst in Cleveland over their number five, first round pick, fifth overall, Mason Graham, because remember they traded number two to Jacksonville. Jacksonville took Travis Hunter. I mean, Cleveland fans were upset because the guy vomited during the minicamp in Cleveland, and they're already apparently thinking that they got the worst of the deal.

Maybe they did, but it's not basically. off of minicamp results. Just remember that. These mini camps, rookie mini camps, when there are no veterans there, like you can't take anything out of this. Nothing. I mean, you can barely take anything out of training camp.

We're in, you know, early May still. All right, I wanted to play this one Dan Quinn comment from Saturday. You'll hear Ben Standing ask the question. It's about D-Line and did they do enough? And, you know, what were they looking for? It's a question answer and a question follow-up answer. I'll follow up once you listen to this. I know a lot of people ask you specific questions about some of the guys here.

Something I ask you a broader one about the roster, specifically the defensive line room. You guys obviously did make a lot of moves this all season. Maybe not some of the ones that people were expecting necessarily. And I'm just curious, when you went into the off-season for you, what was the plan with that, the defensive line, maybe specifically defensive end and how it play out to you that you ended up kind of getting the guys, the type of guys that you got?

Yeah, we're pumped to add, you know, the guys that we did to the crew. And so that's been nice part of the offseason to see them and what roles. And then as we go through the offseason, the training camp, those specific things will kind of work their way out and through the roles. But it's been a good start to the off season, adding the new guys to it. So, yeah, I'm pumped to what we've seen so far. I guess what's more about if you had to run defense office was a bit of an issue last year, young pass rushers like was it more about hey we need to maybe show up some types of the run defense I think it was really just like the identity and how we want to play and so I wouldn't say it's one

versus the other I don't I don't think necessarily in just those terms but there are specific traits that you want and the size and athleticism so those are part of it but I wouldn't just categor or you know say it's only this or only that so Dan Quinn's answer and we've heard this from Adam Peters as well, you're not going to get from them what they were unable to do. They are always going to focus on what they did and be upbeat and positive about what they did accomplish. Specific to that last part, you know, run stopping versus pass rusher. That was not super interesting to me. I don't think he's going to tell you, oh, we had a run stopping problem.

We were focused on that. Or we were really focused on replacing Dante Fowler's 10 and a half sacks because we don't have anybody else that can do it. But I do think, you know, it's worth noting that they went into this offseason, in my view, believing that they had this first window of opportunity to try to win the Super Bowl, that first window being Jaden Daniels on a rookie deal. And if Miles Garrett had been available, I would have been surprised had. Washington not been a team involved in trying to acquire Miles Garrett. I think they have been

one of the few teams, I don't even know if it's few, but they've been one of a group of teams that has expressed interest in Trey Hendrickson. The price has just been too high. But you're never going to get from Dan Quinn what they weren't able to accomplish. I'm not saying that most teams tell you, oh, we really wanted this player, we couldn't get them. It's not that. It's just this idea of we're focused on what we did get and what we did get we like. You know, we like some of the things we've done. Here's what they've done more than anything else defensively. They got bigger and stronger defensively up front with Kinlau, with Goldman.

You know, Kinlau in particular. They got bigger and they got stronger, which is something they needed to be, you know, specifically in their division. They needed to be bigger and stronger. Are they where they would have hoped to have been once the season ended, entering the offseason defensively? I don't think so. I think, you know, they still would have preferred to have added, you know, a major impact player

like they did on offense with Laramie Tunsell. And to maybe a lesser degree, at least price-wise, maybe not in overall impact, Dibault Samuel. But Garrett wasn't available. Hendrickson may never be available, and if he is, he may be too expensive. And so, and in the draft, the best player on the board wasn't an edge or a defense event. And they were drafting best player available on the board. And the players that they got at best players available on their board were players that also filled needs. It's not like Trey Amos didn't fill a need.

It's not like their first round pick. didn't fill, Josh Connerly Jr. didn't fill a need. So anyway, there's still more time between now and the beginning of the season. We've talked about Von Miller and Zadarius Smith and, you know, and even guys like Nick Chubb and J.K. Dobbins. We'll see whether or not there's something else to come down the road. We'll finish up next with a very interesting conversation, especially if you're a golf fan, with Michael R. Cush,

who's got a best-selling book out right now, the Golf 100, the top 100 golfers of all time. We'll get to that after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by Window Nation. If you've been thinking about new windows, my recommendation, as always, is Windonation. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Windonation.com. First things first, they're going to come out and give you a free in-home estimate when it's convenient for you.

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is Michael Arcush. Michael has written or co-written 15 books, including New York Times bestsellers from the outside with Ray Allen, the big fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, and more. And with the second of four golf majors taking place this week down in Charlotte at Quayle.

Hollow. I thought it would be a good time to talk about Michael's new book, The Golf 100, a spirited ranking of the greatest players of all time. We love list books. You know, in mentioning just the book that you did about Sugar Ray Leonard, I was thinking that we as sports fans, we love kind of list making and rankings. We'll get to your book. We'll get to golf in a moment. but boxing has always been, right? Michael, one of those sports like golf where the conversation is always about rankings and lists, you know, the greatest ever, the greatest pound-for-pound fighter of all time. What sport? What sport do you think we as sports fans do this the most with? That's a great question. It seems like we do that with basketball a lot. Maybe that's because LeBron right now is wrapping up his career. make the comparisons to Michael Jordan. I don't think we do it as much in baseball and football, but certainly in basketball.

But you're right, the individual sports, boxing and golf lend themselves so perfectly for this because there's no place to hide. There's no point guard to blame for not getting you the ball or no coach who didn't start you. You are on your own and you're exposed, and that's the wonderful thing about those two sports. Yeah, and in bringing up basketball, it's usually, you know, it can be teams that we rank, the greatest teams of all time, but it's position-based. You know, it's the greatest point guard, it's the greatest center, and in football it would be, you know, the greatest quarterbacks.

I think we probably do greatest quarterbacks of all time as much as we do almost anything else. Yeah, I would think so. I think a lot of people now kind of put Brady way above there. The debate isn't as great. The debate seems fiercer between Michael and LeBron than any other sport, I think, at this point, other than maybe golf, Tiger versus Jack,

Yeah, you're right. No, that's interesting because I'm not the sports fan and the basketball fan that puts LeBron into that conversation with Michael. I think Michael, for me, it was always Michael or Magic in the, like with basketball, I think almost with the NBA, tell me if you agree or disagree. I think you almost have to separate the centers out of the conversation. Absolutely. It amazes me that Kareem and Bill Russell and Chamberlain almost seemed to be put off in this other place away from Michael and Kobe and Shep and LeBron. Let's not forget the impact that Chamberlain had or the unstoppable hookshot the Kareem had.

They were dominant players in basketball, and it's shocking at times to see them being so disregarded. No doubt. I've always felt that way about the centers. And, you know, it's funny in mentioning Wilt, in the conversation, I think it's always amazing how Wilt just gets disrespected, whether it's the center conversation or not. I don't think in any sport, certainly not a team sport, have we ever seen a bigger outlier in terms of his statistical, you know, career? I mean, there's just nothing that resembles Wilt in the history of basketball. Agreed. I mean, would he average 50 points it gave? that year at the 100 points of one game and the rebounds and the assists.

It may be because part of it may be just the personality. Part of it may be that Russell beat them all the time in the playoffs. There's a number of factors, but there's no, if you try to compare somebody like that in baseball or football, there's no way they would be as disregarded as well it is. Yeah. All right, let's get to the topic, which is the Golf 100. So before I ask you for the, you know, the formula or the criteria, for the rankings. Is it easy to say about number one, it's Jack or Tiger?

I thought it would be a slam dunk starting out that it would be between those two. But the more research I did, the more I learned about Bobby Jones. And again, we're talking about someone who I think who's too easily forgotten in sports. In 1923, he won it in the 1920s, his last 21 major appearances, he won 13 of them. lose the Grand Slam in 1930 at the age of 28. By the way, while he had a day job, and then he quit. And then, of course, he started Augusta National, which had been impacted this day. The role of the amateur in golf, he was the guy, and he had two ticker tape raids down

Broadway. It's, you cannot overestimate the impact he had on the sport. So, I mean, I want people to read this book, but there are a couple of things that I'd love to get from you, which is, are you telling me that Bobby Jones is the number one player in this book? He is not the number one player. What I did, though, I came up to the metric system. I added bonus points for his impact and contributions to the game, and I thought perhaps

it was a point that there might be enough numbers there for him that outpaced Tiger or Jackie did not, but he did wind up number three ahead of Ben Hogan, which I think a lot of people might have a problem as great as Hogan was. but it's Jones 3, Hogan 4. All right. Tell us what the criteria was. How did you determine the top 100? Major championships.

It's that simple. They are the barometer of greatness in the sport. They're the ones we pay attention to four times a year. We focus on what happens. All the respect to the John Deere Classic and so many other tour events. But that's a history of the game. That's what links us back to all the players from the past. The U.S. Open, the British Open, the PGA, the Masters.

That's what matters most. golf. So I awarded a certain amount of points, $2,000 for every major victory, $500 per second, 253rd, $104th, and 55th. I gave 300 points for every PGA Tour victory, and then I entered bonus points into the equation, and that includes contribution to the game, in fact, on the game, etc. Well, so then I can maybe deduct here that based on the second place finishes and the fact that he's got 18 to Tigers 15, that Jack was one. Jack is one, but here's a thing. I don't give him 18.

I give him 20. I'm counting the two U.S. amateurs. He won in 59 and 61. The U.S. amateur for years, for decades, was considered a major. You go back and watch the YouTube of Jack's victory in 86 Augusta. Everybody's saying, Jack has won. It's 20th major. Suddenly, they were two were taken away.

And I still, to this day, Kevin, I do not know who took them away. And I've talked to a lot of people. So he's got 18. Tiger's got his three U.S. amateurs, but I don't count them. Well, Jack's got 20 are saying, and Tigers got 18. I'm sorry, Jack has 20. Okay. And Tiger, I don't count his three U.S. amateurs in the same way,

because the amateur did not have the prestige it had during Jack's day. Jack was the last highly touted amateur with a chance to make it big, who seriously gave consideration to be an amateur's whole career. The criteria that you came up with leads to Jack being number one. Before you went through this process, as a golf fan, who did you think was the greatest golfer of all time? It was really close because I followed Jack as a kid by a couple. I covered Tiger as an adult. And how can you not be amazed at Tiger winning?

But 2,000 U.S. Open by 15, British Open by 8. one dominant performance after another. And I still believe that if you put a gun to my head and said, okay, you've got to put a bet down here right now. Are you putting the money on Tiger versus Jack in an 18-hole match? That's a tough call. But greatness depends on a body of work, and that's where Jack's body of work is higher than Tigers.

Moving away from the list, and we'll come back to it. But are they the two greatest competitors the sports ever seen? that's a great question um there are a few others hail irwin i don't know of anybody i wrote this in the book i put that you know nobody in golf was more competitive and i wonder and i thought maybe p rose was more competitive but it's it's close i mean hail irwin just i used to cover him on the pj on the champion's tour and he was so intense every shot was life or death for him I don't think as great as Tiger and Jack were, I don't think they're necessarily more competitive than Hale Irwin.

How many? He won a couple of U.S. opens, right? Three U.S. opens. Three U.S. opens. And that was it, correct? That's it in terms of majors, yeah. But he had a reputation for winning on the toughest courses. And the majors, the opens he won were 74, 79, 1990s.

The wing foot one. One of them was Wingfoot, right, where it was like way over par. Yeah, it was way over. It was called him Dick Schapp wrote a book about it called The Massacre. Right, right. Yeah, it was a brutal course. And that was, many people felt designed to counter what happened the year before in 73 at Oakmont, with Johnny Miller shot a 63 in the final round to win.

And the U.S.O., but the U.S.GA was not going to let another 63 happen. Right. how important is, to your criteria, was winning the Grand Slam? And I ask about that because I think about a guy like Jordan Spieth, who if he were to win this weekend, would have a career grand slam. Second golfer in this major season to accomplish it, obviously Rory the first at Augusta. But Speath is nowhere near the golfer Rory is, if we're just comparing those two. But career grand slam, what does what did that mean to the rankings? I did not

allocate specific points for that accomplishment while it's definitely noteworthy no question about that but no I didn't do that specifically but speed you write speed this number 59 book right now and I would have thought he would be so much higher by this point after what he accomplished his first few years but let's not forget he's only 31 years old there's still time he's one of a number of guys who can still rise up

for sure. I'll ask you about some of those guys here in a moment. But you know, I'm, I got into a bit of a debate with, um, with a friend of mine over Rory and Augusta. And I said, you know, that relief at the end, especially after he missed the putt at 18, was more about being back into the major championship winner circle. That was the weight. That was the weight that he carried around since, you know, 2014, not that he was thrilled to win the career Grand Slam. We got into a debate, and I said, no, the pressure is built because of the lack of a major. Had that come at Quail Hollow and not Augusta, maybe it's not the exact same, but still, it would have felt like, you know, the weight of the world was lifted off his shoulders.

What do you think? Oh, absolutely. I think it's the 10-year drought. I don't really think golf fans, they respect the accomplishment of the Grand Slam, the career grounds of, I don't think it rises up to that level that maybe the press sometimes attaches to it. Right. I think for sure. Think about 2014, we're thinking now 8, 10, 12, maybe more majors, he's in his mid-20s.

For him to go 10 years, now 11 years, without a major title, I don't know how much money I would have put on that not happening. It's incredible. and he's had, as you know, many close calls. All right. What ranking has generated so far, with the book being out a few months now, what ranking has generated the most controversy or the most pushback from, you know, readers or media people?

It seems that putting Mickey Wright, number six, as the top female on the list, surprises a lot of people. A lot of people didn't know who she was. Yeah, I do. She won 82 times. 82 times, 13 majors, basically left the game at the age of 34, had the best wing, even Ben Hogan said so of any male or female. Everybody assumes Anika Sorens who's number one among women. And I think Anna was fabulous.

I think there's a bias that we have too often with players who are playing now, and we forget the whole picture. Mickey Wright was incredible. Okay. Other than Mickey Wright, who else? Babe. Babe, Deirdrethin Zaharius, who I put down, speaking of debates, I rank as the greatest athlete male or female of the 20th century, not Ali, not Jordan, Babe. The Olympic medal she won, she was excelled in other sports, took up golf rather late and was dominant. And there was a three-year period because that she was barred from the USGA, by the USGA from competing. So that affected her numbers as well. What an unbelievable athlete. Also, Patty Berg, who won 15 majors. No woman has won more majors.

There are all together there are 15 women on the list. 15. 15 out of the 100. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. The golfer that made the list, period, forget about where he or she was ranked that surprised you the most.

A guy named John McDermott, who's number 100, who won two U.S. Open. back in 1911, 1912. To this day, age 19 is the youngest open champion ever. And then he experienced some losses in the stock market and went through a lot of other issues and was committed to a psychiatric hospital. And that was it for his career.

One interesting end to the whole story with John McDermott. In 1971, he's at the U.S. Open and Marion. He's in the pro shop. And some assistant pro is ushering him out unaware of who he is. He's an old guy. He's kind of dressed poorly. At that moment, Arnold Palmer walks into the bro shop, recognizes McDermott,

and McDermott is his guest the rest of the week. So when was he committed to the sanitarium? This was back in the 19-tee. This was like 60-19-15, yeah. But he ended up living a full life. Well, he wanted to spend much of his life in institutions. Oh, wow. But got out periodically, yeah, yeah.

What about a guy, what about of the men, a player that, you know, it isn't necessarily controversial, but, you know, maybe in the top 20, top 25 that's ranked much higher than you thought and one that's ranked much lower than you thought. One much higher than people, and this is somebody, a lot of people have never heard of a guy named John Ball. He played in the 1890s, 1900. He won eight British amateurs, including one at the age of 50. So Phil Mickelson is not the only player with a major in his 50s. He was unparalleled. He was the first really great amateur at that point. And remember, and he also served, he also served in the Second Boer War,

which is a whole other takeaway from this book, all of different players who lost time because he served in different conflicts. So I knew fairly little about it beforehand. So he wound up being in the 20s, and that shocked me, really. People who are not there, who are not as high as maybe, I would have thought a guy like Kepka, I would have thought he would have thought he would be higher, but he's got five majors, but he's one practically nothing else. So he, but he's, what, 35 right now?

So he's got to have a chance to make up the ground as well. It's amazing. He had a really bad year of Major Laskin. He had not playing the Masters, so we'll see what happens to him. It sounds like, it sounds like based on some of the things and stories that you're you're leading into that this book isn't just a list. How much do you write about each player? Is this book more about kind of the stories and the lives of the players on the list or the list itself?

No, no, more about their lives. I felt really strongly that I wanted to bring life back to a lot of players we've forgotten. I used to read these obits all the time. And you see the crawl on the bottom of the screen. So-and-so passes away, and I'd find the obit to be a couple hundred words. wait a minute, I want to learn so much more about these guys. So that was a big inspiration for me to dive into and try to find out about guys in the 20s and 30s and 40s before there were a lot of media coverage.

That was a big part of it. So I tried to make sure there were close to about 1,000 words per person, and then, of course, as the numbers got, as the players got up in the rankings, I added more space. So altogether the book's about 130,000 words. Wow. How many guys, well, how many players, male or female, are currently playing, who are on the list? Let's see.

You've got Rory, who was number 25 in the book, but now since the Masters, he's moved up to number 20. That's another thing. I'm likely going to revise this with a paperback version. Right. So Rory's moved up already. You've got Jordan Spieth. I mentioned 509.

I've got Kepka. You've got Dustin Johnson. He's on the Lyft Tour. So we don't see him that much, him and Kepka. Sergio's on there, another Lift Tour guy. um, Nicholson, you know,

plays the Masters. So, um, not that, the PJ will play the PJs, because he's a PJ champion. But, um,

normally, so there's about a half dozen or so guys, we're on the list. Uh, you didn't mention Scotty Schaeffler. He's not on the book. I know. And that,

that's surprising me, too. I mean, his numbers are really close. I closed off the county of this. Through the British Open last year, he came up just short. Needless of say,

in a revised version, version he'll begin there because he's won a few times since then and we're not even halfway through the year yet. Yeah, so on two guys playing today, and I had this kind of on the list of topics, you know, you mentioned Rory where he is on the list currently and where he was prior to Augusta. Where do you project he will end up in 10 years when you do the paperback version? Well, he, you know, I don't think he would have to. He would have to, he, he would have, to be an extraordinary amount of success for him to get into the top ten. But it's not impossible.

I would say most likely he's going to wind up around 15, maybe 10 to 15. He's got five now. He's just turned 36. I think in the book I wrote that I bought double digits would start to seem out of reach. But let's see. I mean, he could wind up with nine or ten majors with that. I mean, if he gets nine or ten, he's passed Watson. He's passed Palmer. He's past players who has nine.

So it's hard to say. I'd say probably 10, 12, 13, something like that. And, you know, Schaeffler's not on the list, but, you know, certainly in a few years the paperback version would probably include him, don't you think? Yeah, well, I'm hoping to have it next year. So, yeah, it would include him. And he's in his late 20s, so you would think that he's, what he's at two now, you would think he's the over-under and him is at least six or seven, maybe more.

But look, one thing I learned so clearly in this book is players can go on runs and then suddenly it stops. Right. And, I mean, Tom Watts did not win another major past his early 30s. Who would have thought that could happen? Arnold Palmer didn't win a major past in early to mid-30s. So it can just suddenly drop the droughts can occur as we saw it in Rory. So nothing in this sport is guaranteed. But Schaeffler certainly seems on his way.

You know, that was one of the players I was going to ask you about. is Watson, you know, with his eight majors, but a lot of top tens, a lot of top fives. Where did he end up on this list? Number 12. Number 12. And it's too bad. You go back to the 2009 British Open to Turnberry, the final haul, when he bogeyed it, if he had parted and won the British Open the 59, I don't know how you feel.

I would have put that certainly as the greatest victory in the history of all. And perhaps the greatest victory period in any sport. When he was at the top of that leaderboard on that Saturday, you know, or heading into late in the weekend, it was amazing. But don't you think on some level that we're going to see something like that in the next 10 to 15 years? I don't know who it will be. It's not going to be Tiger probably because of the injuries. But just because of the way people are, you know, it's evolution.

the, you know, today's 59 is yesterday's 45 or whatever, do you think we'll see you know, more players in their 50s win or not? I'll give you why, I think yes and why know. Why? Because you're right, they have support teams. They're incredibly

everything is calibrated. They are in great shape, all that. At the same time, a lot of players when they get the age of 50 now, they're so rich. How much incentive will there be to continue playing at the level you need to maintain that effort, that maintain that form, that form in order to be ready to win a major championship. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. One other player that I wanted to ask you about,

Lee Trevino, how did you, how did this list treat Lee Trevino and, you know, a career that saw, I think, six majors and a ton of contentions? Yeah, 29 tour victories overall. He's number 15. It's amazing. When I spoke to him, He had just, the first time I spoke to him on the phone, he had just been working on the range. This is, I think he was 82 years old at the time. I was just like, he's 82 years old. What is he doing just hitting balls? He was looking for something else.

I mean, that's the greatness of the sport, right? Every time we go play, we say, this is it. Today is day. True. Yeah. And there he is out there doing this, and he does it. At the time, I had talked him that recently, but he was doing it every day. Yeah, he took down Nicholas.

I gave him bonus points. He took down Nicholas from the 71 open. at Marion. He beat him in 74. He'd be in the 72 British Open. And sports, and the story of coming back from the poverty that he had growing up, it's a remarkable, really. One other player, actually.

One of my father's all-time favorite players. And one of the greatest front runners in the history of the sport, Raymond Floyd, four majors, and just a guy that was extremely talented. I'm just curious as to where he ended up on the list. He's in the late

20s. He's, he's I love talking to Raymond Floyd. You're right, a great front water. He had that attempt to win the Masters. He went against the playoff against Faldo. Right. He hit the ball. His second shot to the water number 11,

which really disappointed. I had wonderful chat with him. The thing that was so appealing about talking to him was he was his playboy for many years on the PGA tour. Really wasn't living up to his potential. And then he met his future wife, Marie, Maria. and she basically turned him around, made him focus on what he was so good at,

and he just raved about the influence he had on her. There was two big, there was one big shot she had with him. He withdrew from a tournament, Florida, and he told her, let's go, we're getting out of here, we're packing, because he wanted to make his way to the racetrack, and she basically would not do a thing. She said, wait a minute, this is your life, this is what you're supposed to work hard at.

You're not doing, I'm not moving anywhere, and she held firm and he turned his life around. That's a good story because he was really, he was a charismatic figure too for all those years on the tour. What about Bryson? I should have asked you about him. Is he on the list? No, he's very close.

You know, there are about a half dozen guys who are right there. It was crazy at the British Open last year. I have the pad in front of me. I'm looking at all these scenarios. Different people who could win. Shoft, I mean, there was, there was, there was, Schellner, there was Maracawa, all these guys who were right on the verge. And Bryson, you know, now he's got his other major now, plus he's got a U.S.

Amher. He's very likely to be another who will jump in there. Is J.T. on the list? Nope. Nope. Okay. And Shoffley, I'm assuming Shafley's not on the list either? Correct.

Yeah. What else did I have here on my list? Oh, just overall, just how do the American, players, American-born men and women, compared to the rest of the world on the list? Pretty well, I mean, but I think, especially since maybe, I would say since it's neat, there's Sneen-Hogan and Nelson, that really started the rise of the Americans, I think. But I think we have to, there's so many great foreign players. I mean, centered by Osteros, who's number 17, who was,

Incredible to watch, right? We lost him too early. Five major, seven or six? Sevy had five. Five. Yep. Yep. And Bernhard Langer, who's only got two majors, but look at, I didn't count specifically

anything on the senior tour. That's to me not what great this is about. But Langer won 42 times in Europe. A lot of guys suffered because the European Tour, they played in the European Tour. It was really savvy who started the wave of players coming over here playing more in America. So a lot of players wound up spending a lot of time in Europe and didn't rack up points they would have if they played in America. There was a great story. It was a golf channel story.

Steve Sands was a part of the story on longer during the Masters. You know, golf was not a popular sport in Germany when he grew up. And he had a massive case for a few years. of the Yips thought he would never get over. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, all right. This has been great. No, but let me just tell you.

Sure. He had times where he would be hitting like every greenian regulation and not getting better than 76 or 77. Imagine that. Yeah, that's, well, putting's important. All right. It is. Is there, we talked a little bit about this at the beginning,

But is there another top 100 of all-time book for you in the future? I don't think so. You know, I don't think, you know, boxing. I've done a lot of boxing stuff, but I don't think it would resonate with people quite as much as golf. I think also because we're out there and we're out there playing with our friends, and we're the kind of debates we have while we're on the course. We're not in the boxing ring sparring with each other, right? So I think that hope springs eternal in baseball and golf because we,

Again, we think that our next shot might be a greatest shot. We'll have those several moments, so we want to look at these players. But I encourage people to read it and have their own argument. You know, I'm not saying I'm right about everything. I did numbers, but people can have their opinions, and I'd love to hear them. You know, you mentioned not doing a boxing thing, but you did write a book with Sugar Ray Leonard many years ago. Yes. First of all, how is he doing?

Do you have any idea? Oh, yeah. I speak to him fairly regularly. He's doing great. He's doing wonderfully. Is he still out on the West Coast? He is, yes. I mean, has there been anything in this sport?

Used to be one of my favorite sports. Has there been an era that matches the 70s and 80s, the 70s in the heavyweight division, the 80s and all of the other divisions? No, no. Not even close. And it's funny, the moment you said that I think I thought about the fact that golf has never really had a decade like the 70s either, as great as Tiger was in some of his peers,

the 70s when you had Miller, Weisskopf, Watkins, Crenshaw, Kite, et cetera. There's been nothing like that in golf either, but you're right about, I mean, we met Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Leonard, I mean. Prior, Argueo, I mean, you know,

the list goes on. Yeah. Yes. All right, this was great. I wish you the best. I know the book's doing very well. For everybody out there, this is one of those books.

that you, especially if you're a golf fan, you absolutely want to go fine. You can get the book wherever you get books. Again, the book is called The Golf 100, a spirited ranking of the greatest players of all time written by Michael Arkush. Michael, is there anything else people need to know? Just again, it's available on Amazon, and they can go to the Penguin Random House website, and I encourage people to read it and look out for the majors this year and see which players on the lift and see how they might rise up. Who do you like at Quail Hollow this weekend? You know, everybody says Rory because it's success there, and Thomas is playing well,

I've got to go with Sheffler. I'm still blown away by that victory a couple weeks ago, and when he's on, he's the best player in the game, no question. Thanks again for doing this. I enjoyed it. Best of luck. Thank you. Thank you very much.

I enjoyed that. I hope you did as well. Michael Arcush, everybody. back tomorrow with Tommy.