The Kevin Sheehan Show - Scot McCloughan

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

Kevin opened with the news from Forbes that the NFL Finance Committee won't approve the current structure of Josh Harris' deal to buy the Commanders. He also discussed the Celtics' win last night over the Heat and the first comments from new Wizards' Team President, Michael Winger. Then, former Washington Redskins' GM Scot McCloughan joined Kevin to talk about Washington's 2023 draft, Sam Howell, and a lot more.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. One guest on the show today, Scott McLuhan will be on today. Former Washington General Manager. He's come on with us the last few years following the draft. Scott McLuhan coming up in the next segment and in the final segment.

We'll talk about Washington's draft, get his thoughts on it. He's still doing a lot of scouting for various NFL teams. and we'll talk about other things with Scott, including Sam Howell and his thoughts on Sam Howell as the starting quarterback in D.C. The show today presented by MyBooky, go to mybooky.ag or mybooky.com. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C., and you can secure a first deposit bonus of up to $1,000. You have to use my promo code, Kevin, D.C., for a chance at a first deposit bonus of up to $1,000. My bookie has other promotions as well. You get boosted odds at my bookie using my promo code, Kevin D.C. Whether you're a diehard or a casual fan, simply put, there's never been a better time

to start exploring the world of online sports betting with my bookie. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere with my bookie. Before we get to Scott McLuhan today, there was a story that broke at about 1130 this morning. from Forbes. Mike is the assistant managing editor of Forbes and covers a lot of sports business news for Forbes. We've had Mike on the podcast. We've had him on the radio show. I had him on the radio show today.

If you want to listen to that interview about his story, it's in the third hour of the show, the 12 o'clock hour. He jumped on with us to talk about the story that I'm going to tell you about right now. And you can find that at the team 980. But Mike's been really good. Man, we've had a lot of these guys on that are covering, you know, the sale of the team. And Mike's been really good. And Mike wrote earlier today that the NFL's finance committee is unlikely to vote in favor of the $6.05 billion purchase of the Washington commanders by the Josh Harris Group.

He has NFL owners speaking on the condition of anonymity saying, that the way the deal is currently constructed in terms of the way it's being financed, it would not be approved by the finance committee, which means it would never get to the actual league owners for a vote. Now, let me not bury the overall lead of this story, which is Mike still believes that this deal is going to get done with Josh Harris. In fact, he had an owner tell him the chances are still 70-30, that this deal will be figured out and Josh Harris will become the next owner of the Washington team.

But we've heard recently that there are problems that the finance committee is having with the structure of the deal. We know where they are in the process, right? Snyder and Harris have a signed purchase agreement, and there's one more step, And that step is actually in two phases. Phase one is the Finance Committee of the NFL approves the deal. And then the owners vote on it. They ratify it with three quarters of a vote. What Mike Ozanian's reporting this morning is that there are two primary problems

with the way the Harris deal is structured. Number one is it's got too much debt in the deal. There is $1.1 billion of secure debt, which is debt on the team, and that is allowed. But there's another billion dollars of unsecured debt, and that is worrying members of the league's finance committee. As one sports banker put it to Forbes, quote, this would be a leveraged buyout of a football team, closed quote.

The Harris Group wants to use other people's money, OPM, to buy the football team. That's one concern. I'll come back to that in a moment. The second concern is the number of limited partners. The NFL allows up to 24 limited partners, one general controlling partner. That would be Josh Harris. And then he's allowed another 24 co-investors or limited partners. And the league is concerned that they've gone over that number.

Now, this to me is the least of the concerns. Now, what it does require is more vetting of people that haven't been vetted. But I think what's happening now is that, you know, one limited partner may actually be four family members. And the league's counting them as four rather than one limited partner group. And that may be the case with a couple of families. That may be the case with just a couple of limited partner groups that created an LLC. And you got one guy's name on it. but he's actually got four investors in that limited partnership.

Look, I think that right now that should be the least of the league's worries, as long as every limited partner is vetted to their satisfaction. But back to the debt issue, this is something where I think, and I asked Mike O'Zanian this morning, I said, look, at some point Tommy and I talked about this the other day, isn't Josh Harris going to say enough already? I am taking this guy off of your hands. I'm the only willing and capable buyer that you have to pay his price to get him out of the league.

Now, enough already. You know, approve this deal. The value of this franchise is going up. We're not going to end up owing, you know, money on this team because it's going to go bankrupt and we're going to have all this debt? No, the values of these teams go up. The cash flow is phenomenal. If you don't want to deal with us, go deal with Brian Davis at this point. Take his pot of gold that somehow came from tunnels and caves in the Philippines in World War II. And I suggested that to Mike Ozani, and he said, well, that's kind of what they're doing right now.

you know, they understand they're the only game in town. And they're trying to, you know, stretch the boundaries here. You know, what are they going to do? What's the NFL going to do? Say no, we're turning your deal down. Where would they go? And by the way, I would add, can you imagine Snyder as litigious as he is if somehow this deal didn't go through? You know, and they didn't have necessary.

And he doesn't get his $6 billion. By the way, in Ozanian story, Ozanian cleared up. or reported, I think for the first time, I talked about two months ago that the price was $5.8 billion, and there was an earnout to get it over $6 billion. Well, he described the earnout as a revenue share with Snyder. Snyder will get 50% of the incremental increase in the commander's gross revenue over the next two years. I mean, even Snyder realizes that the revenues will likely go up once he leaves. but that's where the other, you know, the other, from 5.8,5 billion to 6.05 billion,

that's where he gets, you know, the presentation of the deal being a $6 billion deal, but he's going to have to earn out the rest of it. And he may earn that out. Who knows? But anyway, the Harris Group, you know, has the liquidity. They've got the money to satisfy the owners. you know, the aggregate wealth of this group has been reported at anywhere from $50 billion to $100 billion. So if the billion dollar, you know, unsecured part of this deal is a concern,

they just get everybody to pony up a little bit more money. I mean, Mitchell Rails and Josh Harris, you know, say, all right, here's another billion in cash. But they don't feel right now like they have to do that because there isn't anybody else out there. What's the NFL going to do? Again, you know, people have told me in the past on this show and on the radio show that the structure of this deal would not actually, you know, work with any other NFL team. But maybe the point is, and maybe Ozanian hammered at home for me today, the point is that Josh Harris and his group, they're capable of a deal structure that would totally satisfy the NFL. but they feel like they have leverage right now. The leverage being, who else do you have?

You didn't have much demand for this team. It was overpriced, and it requires putting billions of dollars into a new stadium once the team is handed over to the new ownership group. I mean, Tillman Fertita was the only other actual bid submitted, and that was for $5.6 billion, I think it was. So, you know, almost a half billion dollars left. The owners should be on their knees thanking Josh Harris, Mitchell Rails, Magic Johnson, Markine, and all of the limited partners for coming to the table with an incredible offer for a team without a stadium and a team with two-thirds of its fan base that is left. And paying one point, you know, is it $3.5 billion more than the Walmart airs paid for a Denver franchise that had a stadium, had 100, you know,

I think it was $100 million in capital expenditures recently into the stadium, and they got a fan base. I mean, at some point, they're going to have to loosen the restrictions and not put themselves into this position with the next group, but they've got to get this deal done, and I do think it will be a deal that gets done. I'm not concerned. Josh Harris is going to be the new owner of the team. I guess what they could do is that they were really, really concerned,

or if they really wanted to stick it to the Harris group that's trying to, you know, leverage the position they're in, which is as the only willing and capable group right now. I guess they could go to Bezos one more time and Snyder and say, all right, Bezos, give us, you know, $6 billion in cash and make it clean. But Bezos was excluded from the process early on, and it would appear is more interested in buying the Seattle Seahawks. You know, this is an ongoing story, clearly, and we'll see it here and chronicle it here until it is finally over. Boston rolled last night. Man, they were impressive. And I thought Miami really looked sloppy, and I thought they looked like they were in a bit of trouble. I know they didn't have Gabe Vincent, and they really struggled to handle the ball with Kyle Lowry, with Bam, with Jimmy Butler, who has not looked himself in the last two games.

150 times a team has taken a 3-0 series lead, and 150 times that team has won the series. Boston right now is one game away from eveninging this thing up at three games apiece. They are favored Saturday night in South Beach by three to get to a game seven, and then they would be a heavy favorite in game seven on Monday night. This is good for the league that they've extended this, and the league's not going dark for nine nights or seven nights. Saturday night, it will be an anticipated game. Boston on the road trying to force a game seven, trying to become the first team in NBA history to come back from three nothing down.

I think they can do it. I do think they can do it. I hope they don't. Saturday night is a night for Jimmy Butler to step up as he has every single time in the last few years when they've needed it. That is a big spot for him. I had the heat last night plus the points, and I had Butler the over the 28 and a half did not work out well for me. I don't know how I'll play Saturday night. I got enough time to think about it, but I'm looking forward to that game. And as I've been pushing all of you to pay attention to the NBA playoffs, you've got now the most crucial games so far of these NBA playoffs. I mean, you've got a team that shot lights out last night, same the night before. They're a better team. You know, this is the deal. This is why I think it's possible,

and I've said this all along. Boston's better. They're more talented. They're not as well-coached. Hopefully Gabe Vincent is back. He was missed last night for Miami. One other quick thing before we get to Scott McLuhan. The new president of basketball for the Washington Wizards, this Michael Winger, who was hired by the Ted Leonas from the Clippers,

man, the more you read about this guy, this guy was desired. by a lot of people. Ted got himself a real legitimate executive, a high-level guy, super smart. Everybody's saying a lot of nice things about him. I had Bobby Marks from ESPN on the show today. He knows Michael Winger well says he's one of the most impressive people in the league. He's been under the radar as far as, you know, being out in front because Lawrence Frank was in L.A. as the true GM. But he did his first interview with the LA Times. And he had this quote about Bradley Beale, quote, his former coaches, his former teammates, they all have extraordinarily high regard for him, and he is unequivocally a superstar. The hardest thing to do in the NBA is acquire a superstar

talent. And it's even harder to acquire superstar talent with his level of character. And so I think it's an extremely, extremely fortunate starting point. So to me, that's really exciting to have somebody like Brad on the team, closed quote. Now, if your intent was to trade Bradley Beale, to get him to wave the no trade clause and trade him to kind of start the rebuild, this is what you would want to say. You're not going to do what Ron Rivera did with Chase Young before perhaps they tried to trade him in the offseason, which is say, yeah, we're not sure that we're going to pick up the fifth year option.

And maybe he will treat this next year and be incented to do what Duran did last year. No, you'd build them up if you want to trade him. So this is how you would talk about Bradley Beale if you wanted to trade him. And I think that's what he's doing because Bradley Beale is not unequivocally a superstar. He's unequivocally a really, really good player, a really good score. he's not a superstar. He is not a number one player on a championship contender. He just isn't. And if they bring back Brad Beale as the highest paid player and some combination or maybe both, Kuzma and Porzingis, they're going to be playing for fifth or sixth in the Eastern Conference best case.

More likely than not, you know, 42, 43 wins and maybe part of the play-in is the seven-seat. That's what they will be if they're fully healthy. If not, they're going to win 35 games. Scott McLuhan, next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's welcome on to the show, former Washington General Manager. And before that, the GM in Seattle and San Francisco, long-time NFL executive.

Scott McLuhan, Scott's been on with us the last few years, usually after the draft, giving us his thoughts on Washington's draft. We'll get to that in a few moments, but I want to start with you just updating everybody on how you're doing and what you've been doing. I know the last few years you've been working with teams throughout the league and helping them with their draft. Yeah, you know, I've been doing the same thing. It's a step I left Washington. I'm a own business called Instinctive Scouting. I'm a consultant.

Teams will hire me out. It depends. Sometimes they'll send me all kinds of names. or sometimes they'll send me certain positions, but I stay really busy with it. I work with agents too as well, a handful of them. So I stay really busy. I stay involved in it.

I don't get the background or the medical that I used to in the past, but I still get the same amount of taste. And so I stay busy and get help some friends out, which is really nice. You know, it's interesting because one of the things I was going to ask you about, and I'll get to it right now, actually, when you don't have the medical and you don't have the ability to do all of the due diligence on the player, you know, the interviews, et cetera. How much of the picture are you really getting?

Yeah, I think 50%. I honestly do. Over the years, when I first started, I would have said 90%, 10%, the person, it's at least 50-50 now, at least, and maybe even more the person, because the talent, a lot of talents out there, you know, around the country, and it's never going to change. Every year, certain positions are going to be deeper in the draft, all that. But the one thing about it is, there's always, there's a lot of, there's always going to be good football players, you know,

and the thing about it is you've got to identify, you know, and sometimes it's easier than the other years. But I think like this year with Washington, I think it just fell in place for them, in my opinion, the way my draft board was set, where they took football players pretty much every pick. And I was really impressed, very impressed. I mean, that was always your thing, you know,

and we would play the sound drops in a positive way because you would always say, you know, about Brandon Sheriff, you know, a football player. But, you know, on the ability to sit down and you said it's 50-50 now in terms of understanding what you're getting in the person as much as what you're getting in the player, what are you looking for in the person specifically? Like, you've been in those discussions, you've been in those meetings. What is the thing that you're looking at that says this is a guy we want in our locker room versus a guy you don't want? You know what? It's a fine line. And it's a tricky line, too, because I've been on both sides.

I've been where I've taken, say, when I first got to San Francisco, I took Frank Gordon's third round. And his talents, talents is not elite, but it's really good. I'm good at the NFL. But his it factor, what was it his mind and in his chest, made him special. You know, and if you could quantify that, anybody in the NFL would pay you millions and millions of dollars just to identify that talent and not from a physical standpoint, but from just a mental and an internal

fortitude standpoint. If you can get to that point, now you've got something. What makes the guy go from good to great, great to special or what makes them stay good and not go to great? It's what's inside them, I think. It's what makes them do the extra stuff, it's what makes them do the extra stuff that makes them and the off-season become a better player than

the next guy, you know? And I just always use Frank as an example. And, of course, you know, he's an anomaly. I mean, it's incredible how long he played coming out injured and all that stuff. But still, it just goes to show, I show my scout that, just try to find that it factor. You can't put it on paper.

You can't say, well, if he answers this question this way, then you have this. It's just the interview, it's just being around them two, three, four times talking to coaches, talking to, you know, other players around him. And just, again, the talent's not hard to see on tape. Like Emmanuel Forbes, the talent's phenomenal to see on tape. I mean, it's easy.

You see flexibility, you see the quickness. You see the ball skills. You see, you know, 13 picks. six touchdowns, all that good stuff. You know, but the reason they took him, they found something that they liked in the interviews because everybody's going to talk about his durability, his size, all this, that, that.

Well, it wasn't not an issue of Mississippi State, you know, and that's pretty good football, you know, and he's going to wind up against NFL receivers eventually and held up. But what makes him be that size, or weight-wise, subsequent-wise, makes him a special player, well, it's got to be something inside of him, and we'll see what

happened, you know, you never know for sure, so you get him into the league and get them in the past. But still, it's interesting how all shakes out. So, all right. So we've got, you moved into Forbes. So let's get to the draft. And I do want to circle back and ask you about Sam Howell and the quarterback situation here in the upcoming season. But on Forbes, you've talked a little bit about him.

I mean, how other than what you saw on tape, football player, you know, playmaker, big play guy. how much of a concern as you watch the tape was the weight for you, the 166 that he weighed in at the combine? It's the only thing that held me back from giving him the top 10 grade in my offending. I thought athletically, everybody was talking about Christian Gonzalez being the most, you know, numbers-wise testing all that. And he probably was on paper. I thought watching tape this year of all the corners, I thought he was the most gifted, being able to play press. in playoff. And the thing is unique about him playing pressure. He can't. He's not strong enough. He's got good length, and he's smart.

He reminds me a lot of Richard Sherman, who will be drafted in Seattle from the standpoint where he might not be the quickest or the fastest to have the most twitch. But if some of the guns always can play, make a musician, he always gets a hand on the ball. And when he does, it's an interception. It changes game. You're talking about Forbes right now, not Gonzalez. Well, I'm just saying from the standpoint, athleticist everybody says, you know, off the numbers, you know, first pick in the corner is going to be Gonzalez. He's got the most, tallest, longest, fastest, quick, his best numbers.

Testing, featured stuff, short, you know. Where you put the tape on, you're seeing a hundred and six-pound guy attacking people in the SBC in the run game on the perimeter, you know, filling up, filling the lane, where, you know, you watch another corners, they're not doing this, and they're 200 pounds. You know, it's all of a sudden this cat's got a little edge to them because it's one of those things, again, I'll go back to Frank, where they got a chip on the shoulder because everybody's always said, you're too light, you're too small, you're too slow, you know. You're not going to be quick enough to playing the league. Well, he's found a way to succeed in the SEC. If you do that,

you have success in the NFL. But you did, like, in terms of the measurables and the talent, you liked Gonzalez more than Witherspoon? Then Witherspoon? I did not. I did not. I did not. I did not. I like to Witherspoon quite a bit, just from a standpoint, again, and I think the reason why everybody starts to fall off him late, just because every game you watch, she was the same guy, you know, just making players, you know, in the run game, in the past game. Now, I think with Forbes, Forbes gives you the ability to play off where I don't think

Litter's spoon can. He might be more suited for the slot or move outside. But I think with Forbes, he's an outside guy, and you just rock and roll with him, you let him play, you let him play band and see what happens, you know, and injuries are going to happen. It doesn't matter if you're big, small, it doesn't matter. Injuries are going to happen. Hopefully for him it doesn't, you know, and really hasn't over his country. career. So hopefully it keeps going that way. All right. So you answered the next question, which is you see him definitely on the

outside, which means that a guy that you drafted, Kendall Fuller here, who played on the inside here, then went and turned that into a run at Kansas City before coming back. And he's been playing on the outside primarily here. They've got another big long guy in Benjamin St. Juice, who they drafted a few years ago, that played on the outside last. year. They actually liked them a little bit on the inside to start and then moved them because it didn't work out with William Jackson a few years ago. Do you see Fuller at this point in his career being a guy that they can move to the slot or not? You can, if need be. I think you'd like to give maybe a little younger, a little bit quick,

a little faster. But what you got with him, of course, the bloodlines, and you got the intelligence experience, you know, and of course a great teammate. He can, do it. And you get away with it because the front's still good there. You know what I'm saying? So a lot of times there's not a lot of the quarterback's going to have a lot of time to the ball. So that helps out a lot too. But I think he can. He'll definitely be in the mix to be there. And if he is a backup, that's a thing good backup. Dane gets backup. All right. You love, you like Forbes a lot. That's clear. What did you think of their second round pick Kwan Martin? I might even like them more, tell you truth.

just an overall package. Now you're talking, he can play. I think personally he's got a chance of playing the slot. He's got a chance to play in safety. Might even, and harm's the way to play on the outside as need be, you know,

and play early. And he is one of the things, that whole school just last year, don't really have been on Illinois, Illinois. And then last year in the secondary, you see how people got drafted, how many players they had.

So, like, wow, and you watch the taste. And they're all good football players. They're all different. But like, like with Martin, he just,

He's one of those guys where you watch one game, you've seen all the games, and you feel comfortable when you put a grade on him because you know what you're getting. And then talking to people that interviewed him and went through the whole process, that it was phenomenal. Everything was A-plus.

All right. Two-for-two so far on Washington's draft. What about their third-round pick, the center out of Arkansas, Ricky Stromberg? I gave him the exact same grade when I watched them on tape. I like them.

You know, it's been many careers. starts, many career, big games, and played well in big games. Nothing seems to rattle him. It's one of those things where he can play Santa. Also, I think he can play some guard for you, if need be. But his home's going to be center when I said and done. And I think he's one of those guys that, you know, knock on wood space healthy, he's got a 10 to 15 year career. So you had... I really like him. Third round. I really like him. Is he undersized for the position or not?

No. No, no. He's not undersized. He doesn't play really big. Right. He plays really instinctive, really smart. He knows angles. He knows leverage, and he knows how to set the front, too, as well. And that's huge. And coming out of the SEC with that head coach, he's an old line guru. So these cats are coming in.

They're going to be polished from a mechanic standpoint, technique standpoint, and just overall knowledge of the position. And like I said, he's a combo guy. If he needs to, he can play some guard. That's awesome. On Sundays, two-for-one, you know. Yeah, Sam Pittman was the, was the O-line coach at Georgia, at Arkansas,

at Tennessee, a bunch of places before getting the head job at Arkansas, the last couple of years where they've been much more competitive under him. All right, what, yeah, go ahead. Let me tell you this, he teaches toughness now. He teaches intelligence and toughness, and that's why they succeed there. Yeah. It's really cool. All right, let's go through the rest of the draft.

They drafted Braden Daniels a tackle slash, you know, position, flex, guard, he can play a lot of different positions, but where do you see Braden Daniels, and what did you think of the pick? I think the pick's a really good pick where they took him. I think he's got upside. He is athletic. He's seen on tape. The whole key is going to be, is he going to be big enough, durable enough, and strong

enough to hold up? You know, he moves and plays like a tackle, left tackled athletically, but you worry about the overall size and lengthy stuff. and all that stuff, so the movement side, but then he's more of a zone-type guard. So what we have to do with him, I think you're going to try to get him, hopefully give him a year or two to get bigger and stronger, and then see if he can develop in to what you think. But where they got him, I think that's a really good pick.

Because you have a chance to have a left tackle going forward. You know, it might be year two, year three, but still, that's a great pick there if you got to start and tackle down the line. All right, what about, let's, before I get finished up with the running back, who they picked in the sixth round, tell me whether or not they got a pass, Russia and KJ Henry or Andre Jones? You know what? With Andre Jones, I don't know well enough to speak about.

KJ. Henry, he's a work in progress, but again, he's a type of guy like Daniels where there's upside. You see it on tape and it's like, okay, he doesn't do this, this, or this yet, but is there a chance we can develop him into this, this, or that? He's the same type of guy, Daniels, where you're like, yeah, that there's stuff there, is a certain trait that makes him for the where we're taking them to have a chance to make it, you know, make the 53, even become a quality backup. or a starter, I think you've got a chance

we end up being a starter. I mean, when we're in Seattle a guy named KJ Wright, who was a linebacker slash pass rush, you know, and same thing. We took him, everybody's like, what are you doing? I'm like, we really didn't know, but we knew we're getting a pretty good football player. You know, we'll stand them in maybe two point, maybe three point. Who knows? We'll see what happened for next year or two. Does he get bigger? But he stayed the same way. Who knows? But again,

he went to a big school, played in big games, and made big plays in big games, and that's pretty cool. That round, really cool. All right. What about the backs? you know, you drafted, you know, you already mentioned Frank Gore. And here, let's be honest, you missed on, you know, Matt Jones, who you really liked in the third round. But I know that running backs in one of those positions that you've always evaluated

and enjoyed evaluating. So what do you think they got in Rodriguez in the sixth round? I think they've gotten eventual every down player. I really like them. Just so you know, I gave him a second round great. I thought he was a poor man, Marshaun Lynch. I really did on tape. Now, again, the background apparently is in there, and the medical might be in.

I don't know. I don't care. You asked me question about what I saw on tape. The guy's a football player. The guy's downhill between the tackles, no nonsense, get after you, and he's going to wear you down. He's going to be a hard guy to keep off the field. Unless he just can't pick it up or something, that stuff, I don't know that. But just off a pure tape, I thought he's every down starter sooner than later in the league.

I think he's one of those guys that people are going to be like, wow, how do we miss on him? And now I know he fell because there's some other stuff. So I don't want to get into because I don't know it for a fact. But as a football player, that's a heck of a thing. I think it's still the draft, the entire draft. I think he's going to be, if he can stay healthy, I think he's a 10, 15-year player. Really? I mean, he's, yes.

He did some special stuff to me. And I don't know, maybe I've done a really good day when I watched him on tape. I did a couple times. Yeah. But he, but he stood out. I haven't talked to Frank about it. I'm like, Frank, do me a favor. He says, well, no one's talking about.

I'm real life. Just throw on one game. Throw on any game you want to throw on. He's throwing a game. He's like, holy smokes. This guy runs north-stop, not stop. I said, hey, he's after people. He's not looking for the sideline. And he's not. And, you know, so he's, I think he really has a chance to be a good player.

I really do. You were saying to Frank Gore, you said, you said. Yeah, watching for me. Yeah. So you had Frank Gore watch Rodriguez, and he liked him as well. Yeah, because everybody's like, I was too high on. Everybody's like, you're crazy. You're crazy.

I'm like, oh, maybe I am. I see a lot of good stuff. And so I have him look at it. And the one thing stood out to him, and then I said, he's a no-nonsense downhill between the tackles get after your tail guy. And that's what plays in the league.

You know, you don't have, you know, 60 to 80-yard home run. You have the, you know, 5, 10, 15-yard bank. That's what he brings. I tell you what, you better have your chin-buckle strapped when he gets the ball and you're on defense.

I promise you that, and that's really cool. Well, they got two of those. guys then because Brian Robinson Jr. was a physical downhill runner for them last year. Did you have- Brian is more talented from the standpoint of quickness and speed and burst, but this guy just, this guy just grows on it because he just wears people out. I mean, defenses get tired to tackle them. They just start turning down third and fourth quarter. Like, the heck, this guy can quit and he won't. You know, and it's not going to be pretty, but it's going to be successful,

I guarantee it. I forget what you told me about Antonio Gibson when they drafted him in 2020. he's still on the roster. He's entering the final year of his rookie deal. He's been really good at times for them. But it certainly seems like there's a chance that they're looking at Robinson Jr. and Rodriguez is kind of the guys. And I don't know, maybe they're going to move on from Gibson after this year. What do you think of Antonio Gibson?

I like him coming out. He was very intriguing because of his flexibility. He played some retriever, played the slot. Of course, played running back. I thought he was going to be a running back. in the league just because it's run after catch, you know, when he caught the ball of last year in school, because he was so natural, you know,

with ball and Sam, but, you know, with backs, you've got to be careful because, you know, longevity, amount of, amount of hits they've taken, it builds up quick, you know, and the average is three years, you're well aware, you know, for the running back in the NFL. So you always trying to restock there, and especially if

you're going to young quarterback, you need a stable of backs, you know, and they might carry three. They might go three on, on Sunday, who knows, you know, they might just, be, you know, we're going to go 12 personnel, you know, which is one back. You know, and just pound the rock and pound the rock and just go through those guys. But I know it's Rodriguez what they're getting. They're getting a guy like Robinson, not as talented, but the same kind of bang guy where, you know,

with the other cat, you're getting more receiving skills, more third down type back skills, you know. And I'm not so sure Rodriguez can't, you know, catch the ball well enough to be considered in every down tight back when it comes to third down. But also, he hasn't been asked to do it at Kentucky, you know, so it wasn't forced on him. So no one really knows. But if you can do that, I'm telling you, I think that's a still. I really do. You really like their draft.

I mean, do you. I really do. At the end of the draft, do you go back yourself and kind of evaluate everybody's draft and say who did really well in your own mind and who didn't? And if so, where did Washington's draft rank for you? Well, I do, from a standpoint, you know, just like everybody else, where they're a pick. Now, that doesn't mean they're right, doesn't mean I'm right. It doesn't matter.

I might give a guy a second. He might go on the fourth or whatsoever. Everybody's different, again, like the medical plays into it. But, you know, it's always, I don't know, it's just, again, the one thing about drafting, about scouting, it's not an exact sign, you know. And you're always trying to find certain traits in certain scouts and certain coaches and in players and trying to, match them up to the schemes, you know, and I think the scheme plays so much into it. And I think what, what Washington did is not just kind of feel needs, but also, I think they got guys either that are legit football players that have a chance to come in and compete

for a starting job right now, or a legit backup is going to be starting the future, or they got guys in the middle to later round that have tremendous ceilings. And, you know, and that's why they follow in the draft, and that's when you start building your roster, which, what Washington has done on the defensive side, And you start adding depth. And now you're rolling. You know, now you've got, now you have football players. And the young guys, they're fighting the veterans who are making them more money, of course,

and the salary cap issue. But you want those young guys. And I think they've got guys that are going to be on that team for a while, and be in the league for a while. You may not have evaluated this guy, but I'm just going to ask you real quickly. They really like a guy that they signed as an undrafted free agent to be their kickoff return or even though kickoff returns are going to be minimized even more with this new rule. and punt returner.

His name's Casimir Allen, Kaz Allen from UCLA. Did you look at him at all? Oh, yeah. I did him two years in a row. I thought it was coming out here before. Dynamic player. Amazed, he did not get drafted.

I mean, you put the tape on. He's fun to watch. It's like you're playing Nintendo. You know, he's making guys miss and face left and right, two, three guys, you know. Now, again, not a big guy, you know. But again, nowadays, these guys fit in those offenses where it's all about, you know,

three, four receiver sets, motion, and his type of guy can do reverses, do smoke screen, do underneath stuff. And once the ball's in his hands, you better watch out because he's pretty dynamic. Yeah, it really sounds like they think they got a guy that at the very least is going to help him out on returns with that incredible vision like you just described. All right, let's take a break and we'll come back with Scott McLuhan and talk about Sam Hal and the quarterback situation. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. The quarterback situation, which is always the most important situation. And right now, coming up in 2023, Sam Howell, you know, they pretty much said,

it's his job to lose. They signed Jacoby Brissette, Scott, as the veteran guy to come in and potentially back him up. And who knows how it will play out in training camp. But let's start with Sam Howell. Do you think they've finally found the answer at quarterback? You know, everybody's talked about this. You know, his junior year, I guess, would have been junior. He had before he came out, it's the second before he came out.

He had two running backs, two receivers, a pretty solid offensive line. It put up great numbers, great numbers. A number of going to the summer, going into the last year in college, I thought he had a chance for a sure-fired first-round player. I really did. And I wouldn't have surprised me at that time. I thought he might be the first one taken of the group. Because you see the competitiveness.

You saw the arm strength. You saw, you know, put up great numbers and this and that. But they had people around them. Then also he went to the last year there. Of course, lots of two backs, lots of two receivers, and struggled, and the O-line struggled, and it did. And not knocking them. It just, he had a lot of sacks.

He went from Russia from like 200 yards to like 800 yards last year, which you don't want that in quarterbacks, of course. But I just like the competitiveness. I saw with me, and at the time, time I was with my buddy John Dorsey's Cleveland. We took Baker Mayfield. I saw Baker Mayfield qualities from standpoint of just the release quickness, the arm strength, the toughness, the competitiveness, the teams, the players around him rallied with them.

You know, you saw it on tape. You saw the guys get excited. I saw that with him. So I liked him quite a bit, and I know he fell in the draft, and I don't know why. I was in the meetings, you know, in interviews and that stuff. But just pure talent, I thought the guy had chance to be, you know, a legit starter in the NFL eventually. It looks like he didn't get the opportunity. hopefully he takes advantage of it and hopefully he found one because that was saving for a long time because he's young, he's cheap, and he's got talent.

He has talent, and I think he showed against the Cowboys late in the season last year. I think he showed up and, you know, that's pressure, you know, even if it's not a playoff game or whatever it's going to be, still for him to step in and do what he did, show some moxie. I think that's a good starting point. So you said that you don't know why Sam Hal dropped

from, you know, wherever you had him and where a lot of scouts had him the year before to the fifth round last year. By the way, in a draft that was not very strong as it relates to quarterbacks. But I want to ask you about something, because I've tried to make the case on the show over the last few months,

that Sam Howe didn't drop from, you know, a first or second round grade, you know, in 2021 to the fifth round in 2022 because statistically, he wasn't as good in his final year at North Carolina versus the year before. I mean, everybody that scouts and all GMs understood, he didn't have the same offensive line. He was missing Javante Williams and Michael Carter in the backfield. Diami Brown and other receivers. And it was a different team that he was quarterbacking. I think everybody

understands that. And I've tried to make the case that a guy doesn't drop that far because of stats, right? I mean, nobody's dropping a guy three to four rounds because statistically he wasn't what he was the year before. I mean, Josh Allen didn't drop. He didn't have a great final statistical year at Wyoming. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's what I said. It's got to be the reason something has to come out as you're going through this process that that's a negative about him and knocks him. And from the standpoint of the tape, like you said, you go back and watch, you know, the year before he came out, the tears before he came out and watch the tape and it's just like, wow, this guy's got something, you know,

here we go, boom, boom, big plays. You know, they're scoring points. You know, even last year they did, or two years ago, they were still scoring points, but his whole game changed from throwing to run, just because he had no offensive line. Right. But you can't grade that. Something had to happen was through the process once the season ended, through the combine, through the pro days, through the visits, something happened that was knocking him down.

And it's happening in the past. It happens about every year in the draft, and all of a sudden people, you know, he was a sixth round pick. you know, no one ever thought. Tom Brady, he was like, wow, you know. Look at it back, no one remembers that. Now they talk about it because he's so good. But it's still, these kids need to understand.

It's not so much where you're drafted. It's what you do once you get there. Sure, sure. Sam's running back to Rodriguez. If something's missing, they'll find out. I mean, they already know something's missing because of where he went to draft. You know, something's amiss a little bit. But everybody has issues.

When you draft that guy, you got know what the issues are, so when you bring him in the building, you can sit down from them right away and get them help, you know, is the violence, is the drugs, is that your homies you're hanging with, is going to nightclubs, you know, so you got to identify that stuff. And again, this goes back to when the conversation started about figuring out who the guy is, you know, the player is easy to figure out who's the guy. You know, once you figure out who the guy is, and that's why I think Worshans is and draft, in my opinion, just off the tape, they drafted guys, meaning football players. Guys are going to fit in, the locker room, guys are going to be on special teams early in their career. because they're a passionate about football. It shows on tape.

And that's why I think in the top five draft, in my opinion, it's now, top five. Wow. By the way, talking about guys and good guys in the locker room and football players, that's what everybody's referred to Jacoby Bressett as, like just one of the best guys to have in your locker room. And they went out and paid $8 million for Jacoby Brissette this year. I'm just curious. I know he's a veteran quarterback, but, you know, I remember him at NC State.

You evaluated him at NC State. What have you thought of his career? And do you think that, you know, if it doesn't work out with Sam, that they're going to be okay with Brissette and a pretty good surrounding roster? Yeah, no, it is a good roster. It's a tough division, too. Very tough. Sure.

Forget about that. But I think with Jacoby, with $8 million, that's not an issue. Not nowadays for veteran number two. That's a proven veteran number two. I'm with you. I've heard nothing from GMs or players or coaches. nothing but great things about it. And I think that's why he's still in the league and still is going

because he has some talent. He has some armed talent and all that, but just the person he is. The leadership he brings, the petripping he brings. And that makes head coaches and coordinators feel comfortable, especially when you got a young quarterback. And I would think Jacoby would be nothing but great for Sam, just if Sam has

questions, you know, because he's been in the league so long and seen so much. So I think it's a good sign. Now, he's a stop-gap guy. If all of a sudden Sam's not the answer, of course, I think he's a top deaf guy and they're going to have a draft one next year. But next year is going to be really good quarterback in the draft, really good. With depth, really good.

Yeah, I actually did this event last week with Caleb Williams. So let me ask you about Caleb Williams, Drake May, et cetera. How much do you love those players and some of the others that will be on the board next year as quarterbacks in the 2024 draft? I like them. I like them. You know, again, you know, this time of year, you know, last year we had everybody lined up. Before that, we were really lined up.

It has to play itself out, but, you know, those two with the top guys, of course, right now everybody's talking about. And I've watched them, and they're talented, you know, now they both have their positives and negative, and they both have some way to go. But you can see the physical skills. And I think but Caleb, now you're getting like a Russell Wilson type guy where it's just, he plays never over when they're younger. You know, he's run around making plays and doing stuff like that, where I think Mayer did more Troy Aikman type guy. But, you know, a good enough athlete to get out harm's way. Those two will be the top ones, but there's other ones I like, too.

I don't get into them right now, but there's another three or four that have a chance to be first-rounders, in my opinion. I think you like yours from Texas. Don't forget about the West Coast now, either. You like Bo Nix? Panics. Oh, you like Panics from Washington, the lefty. I like Bo next to. Don't worry.

Bo had a good year. Bull came through adversity. It was pretty cool to see what he did last year. Yeah. All right. So, by the way, but yeah, no, it's good. So speaking of the quarterbacks,

how did you have them ranked this year? Like who got the best guy, Young Stroud, Richardson, you know, Levis falling to this, to later in the draft Hooker? Who did you really like? How did you have them ranked? I think, well,

I had Young number one. And the way it fell, I had a rank now. I had Hinden Hooker higher up than where he went. I think Hennon's got a chance to be, you know, a better Jacoby-Perset type guy, you know, but be a starter and be, you know, a three to four, five-year starter possibly. But young, it's so safe.

I mean, of course, you want him six to three, you want him 220 pounds. I get that. But what he can do in the pocket and his presence and his eyes and how he has control of the huddle and control of the line of scrimmage, it's just so impressive. You know, now, would he be great, who knows? But I think it's one of those picks where no matter what, he's going to be good. you know, be like a Brandon sheriff pick. Everybody's like, it was going to be the left tackle.

I don't know what it's going to be, but you know what? It's going to be damn good. Wherever you put him. You know, and that's the truth. And when you come down to you want your best out there. You know, so. Did you know sheriff wasn't going to be a tackle when you drafted him? You had to know that.

It was 50-50. I was fighting Jay on him. Gruden, of course, the head coach, because he was saying, you know, no one takes a guard that early. No one takes the guard that early. I'm not, so it became between me and him kind of like a pissing match, but not in a good way, though. And I was laughing.

I'm like, don't you want your best buy up front. As a man, the tackle guard or center for kicking someone's ass, does that matter? He's like, no. I'm like, we're taking him in. That's what he put him in the car, put him in the center. I don't care. Put him a wide receiver.

He's going to make our team better. Just what the person is. By the way, I remember you telling me that there was a, there was a brief opportunity potentially for a tradeback, I think, with the Giants. And that if you had made that

trade back you would have taken Todd Gurley. No. Was that the way it happened or not? No, that's not true. No, no, no. Girlie was never in the play. Gurley was never. Well, was there, what am I remembering then? Was there a trade back opportunity with the Giants who wanted maybe share for somebody or Leonard Williams or somebody like that or not?

They got who they wanted. They wanted Eric Flowers. Yeah. That's who they wanted. But did they think they needed to move up to get him? Yeah, because everybody thought we were going to take him because Jay was pushing for him, you know, to the median stuff, which was great. I loved God. I said, run with it, run with it, because we were going to take Eric either.

But Eric matched all the, you know, height, weight, all that stuff, you know, 6, 5, 3, 30, 35 inch arms. You know, Brandon's got 33 inch arms or whatever. And I'm like, well, I'm taking the Bulldogs. So, yeah, no, but Giants wanted to trade it because they thought we were taking him. And I didn't want to lose shares. I didn't want to mess around with it because I just knew we needed something up front that's going to stay. That's a group, you know, from a young guy, you know, to bring up through it. And it's too bad he had to leave there because he wanted to stay.

I know that for a fact, you know, but he's great and sees, he's great and the theater, well, they did franchise and all that. But, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, we around here, as you know, we end up talking about a lot of things that happened in the past because usually what's happening in the present isn't very good. You know, you usually get to, usually get to, well, let's talk. about this because at five and eight, you know, in November, things aren't looking that great.

Of course, we are talking to Scott McLuhan. You know, I remember you telling me that you thought Jay Gruden was one of the best coach talent evaluators you've ever worked with, right? Correct. Yeah. Was there a moment with Jay? I mean, it just reminded me as you were talking about the sheriff thing in your very first draft where you guys were going back and forth on what to do there. Was there a moment

or a player that Jay evaluated where you said, wow, Jay's pretty good at this compared to other coaches I've worked with? Matt, Ionatus. All I got to say, that was all him, all him. I believe it was the fifth round we took. I believe he was fighting, fighting, fight, fight, I'm like, we could give him in the seventh. I promise, or we give him as a free agent, I promise. He's like, we've got to take him out. He's going to make him. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. He's going to make. I'm like, doesn't have the traits to make. I love being tangible, but where's the physical skill, you know?

But he fought and fought and we took him, and the son of a gun. I think he's still in the league. That's true. Yeah, I think he is. He didn't, he's in Jacksonville. Or Carolina? Carolina. He ended up in Carolina, sheriff in Jacksonville, of course.

Correct. All right. So, yeah. So, but he popped me on that and fought me, and I'll give him 100% credit for that. 100%. That was all in the scouts, too. Don't give me wrong. Yeah. Well, I mean, you guys had another, you know, decision, which is now basically eight years ago, if you can believe it. And that was the summer before Kirk Cousins started for your team in 2015. And, you know, how did that whole thing come together when we got through, you know, the second preseason game against the Lions or the first preseason game? And Jay comes out and goes, Kirk Cousins is our starter for the entire season. Because we know that the

owner was in love with Robert. How did that whole thing come together? What are your memories of that? You know what? It was really smooth, to tell you truth. It was an open competition, you know, and it was great for me to come in from the outside because Jay had been there, of course.

Bruce Allen had been there, and of course, Dan had been there, and both quarterbacks have been there. So I came in as like a new vision, new voice, you know, hopefully the right voice and vision, you know. But I think to the OTAs, through mini camp, just through the, you know, training camp early and stuff. The team just was rolling better with Kurt. You know, you just saw it was growing and growing and growing,

and he just felt more comfortable now. Everybody says it was a great problem to have two quarterbacks fighting for the starting job because of competition, yeah. But it'd be nice to have one that's your franchise type guy. You know, and at that point, of course, they, before I got there, thought maybe, you know, Robert's going to be the franchise guy. And of course, the injuries hurt him and all that stuff, which stinks. And he ever give me a year and all that stuff is great.

but Kurt just kind of took over the team and he just felt some leadership and you know as everybody's well aware Kirk's not a real vocal guy I mean he's not going to stand out there and raw raw raw now he'll get excited and say certain things at a certain time but he was just taking leadership

and it was really cool you know because you're right you know I think the ownership I think the fans wanted Robert because you know traded up for him brick of the year he's going to be a franchise guy we're into super bowl through this guy and all of a sudden now he's not playing as well

and Kirk won it and Jay was open to it he wasn't one or the other He said, whoever wins against it. That's the way it's competition is going to be at any position. And Kirk won it and still playing pretty thing good. All right, two more for Scott McLuhan, and that's it, because you've been generous with your time. First of all, do you have any thoughts on Eric Bianami

as the team's offensive coordinator? I'm not a real exes and old guy. I've known Eric. He played my brother at Colorado when they went a national championship. And so I knew him from then, and I've known him ever since. A really good guy, highly intense guy. highly intelligent guy, but no nonsense,

tough guy now. He's not going to play around. He won't screw around. He'll get after you. Need be. Andy Reid, who I was with in Green Bay, has taught him over the years at the O.C.

Hopefully that he gets half of what Andy has, because that's special. You know, he probably has it. You know, and hopefully I'm pulling for him. Hopefully he has a great season. You know,

now the young quarterback, you're going to have some ups and down. He's going to have to deal with that, but, you know, he was with Mahomes, who's, you know, different kind of talent, but still,

has some ups and down. His first year he didn't play in Kansas City. So he's been around the young quarterback and developed young quarterback and he's done with young quarterback. So hopefully that plays off for Sam and goes forward and like snowball things keeps getting better and better and better and bigger and bigger. All right. Last one.

You know this from afar, but you also were here for a few years. And it's been, you know, 24 years with Dan Snyder has been, you know, a disaster for what was, at one point in time, one of the best fan bases in all of sports. He's selling the team. There's going to be a new owner. There's a lot of excitement, you know, in this town like we haven't seen in a while as it relates to this football team.

What are your thoughts of Dan selling the team from out in Colorado? You know, outside looking at, it's a huge business, you know, and it's a very, very competitive business. I think there's more people get involved in it from the ownership standpoint that don't understand football than when we're losing guys that do understand football. I'm not saying Dan, like, you know, a Rooney type guy. But Dan was nothing but great to me. When I was there to the organization now, you know, I know things have been reading the said.

But he let me do my job. I try not to, he didn't step in the way. We would communicate and there's nothing always the positive stuff. So for him, I have to tell him, I know he loved the team. I know it's big for him, his father, and it stinks from that standpoint. But also the league doesn't play around. I get it. It's a huge, huge business, and a lot of people are involved in it.

But it's a bad part of business. Losing coaches, owners now, if they deserve to be out of the league and they're bad for the league, I get it. I did not, when my time in Washington did that with Snyder family at all. Not even close, got your truth. I feel for them. But again, I was only there a couple years. So what's happened to happen.

I just know how important the organization was to him. It's great to hear your voice. You know how much I appreciate when you do this. I'm glad to hear everything's going well, and let's make plans to do it again a year from now to talk about the 2024 draft. It'll be a new one with new ownership more likely than not and maybe a new direction for the organization.

But I'm glad that, you know, I think people are happy to hear that you really like their draft. I do. I do. two or three years from now it'll be a talent they'll just like knock on wood that you all stay healthy I'll get the opportunity to be successful and see what happens but yeah no I really like their draft I think they'll look back in a couple years and say you know that got us really go in the right direction

you know especially in a tough division thanks Scott appreciate it as always have a great day buddy always enjoy doing that with Scott and wow he loves Washington's draft I don't think he has said that as forcefully in previous years as he did today. All right, that is it for the day. I know Monday is a holiday,

but more likely than not, we will have a podcast out. Have a great weekend. Talk to you next week.