The Kevin Sheehan Show - Should Jayden Daniels Play In Preseason?

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Kevin opened with thoughts on the new Commanders' front office hire, former Panthers' GM Scott Fitterer. He then discussed whether or not Jayden Daniels should play in the preseason. Kevin provided some Dan Quinn and Kliff Kingsbury head coaching history when it comes to playing starting QBs in the preseason. Then former Redskins' and Houston Texans' GM Charley Casserly jumped on to talk about his long journey from an unpaid intern for George Allen in 1977 to the DC Sports Hall of Fame. Download the PrizePicks app today and use code Sheehan for a first deposit match up to $100! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Windonation is the presenting sponsor of this podcast. As always, call them at 86690 Nation. We're head to windonation.com. Mention my name and you'll get a free in-home, no-risk estimates.

So today, tonight, tomorrow, Wednesday, Thursday, the longest stretch of days annually without an actual game in any of the four major professional sports. No baseball game, no basketball game, no football game, no hockey game. There is the all-star game. Baseball is at its all-star break. That game is tomorrow night, but not an actual game that counts for four consecutive days. We get this every year during baseball's All-Star break. It is the slowest sports week of the year.

But no worries. I've got you covered. Today on the show, Charlie Casserly will be on with us. Charlie is heading into the D.C. Sports Hall of Fame later on this week. So Charlie will join us coming up in the next segment. And there was news today with. our favorite football team. The news is another front office edition as Adam Peters continues his organizational makeover. The team hired Scott Fitterer, the former GM of the Carolina

Panthers, who was fired in January after three years of working for Panthers owner David Tepper. It didn't go well for him as a GM, but he was a widely respected. front office exec in Seattle for nearly 20 years before taking the GM job in Carolina. He started as a scout all the way back in 1998 with the Giants. He took a job with Seattle in 2001 as a scout, and then over nearly two decades with the Seahawks, he worked his way up to vice president of football operations working directly for longtime Seattle GM John Schneider. He got the GM gig in Carolina in January of 2021, and the Panthers were a mess under his reign. But to be fair, it's not like they were very good before he got there. And it's

certainly not unreasonable to say that he had to work for the now worst owner in the NFL. Yeah, David Tepper has taken over Dan Snyder's mantle. as the worst owner and the most meddling owner in the league. And Fitterer had to try to make it work with him and with a head coach and Matt Rule for a while who was actually given contractual personnel control when he was hired by Teper to be the head coach in 2020. That was right after Tapper remember fired Ron Rivera

during the 2019 season. But man, Scott Fitterer oversaw. a three-year run in Carolina that was miserable, but included a lot of activity. First of all, you know who he replaced? Marty Herney. Marty Herney got fired by Teper late in the 2020 season, and he hired Scott Fitterer after interviewing a reported 15 different candidates for the position, and Fitterer apparently was one of the last candidates that Teper interviewed,

and then he hired him. But man, there was a lot going on during Fitterer's time in Carolina. First of all, the record with him is the GM in Charlotte, a mess. Really truly awful. 14 and 37. Remember, they were 2 and 15 last year with Bryce Young as the team's rookie quarterback. It was the worst three-year record in the NFL from 2021 through 2023. but he engineered, you know, the big trade that landed. Bryce Young is the first overall pick.

They sent DJ Moore two first rounders and two second rounders to Chicago to move up to number one. They took Young in front of C.J. Stroud. And so far, that doesn't look good. The word was that Frank Reich, who he hired or he and, you know, the owner, David Tepper hired to be the head coach to replace Matt Rule. The word was during the season that Reich had really preferred C.J. Stroud all along, but that Tepper wanted Bryce Young. Where Fitterer stood on the choice between the two wasn't ever revealed or I couldn't find it in some of the reporting during the course of the season. but there was a lot more to his record in Carolina. By the way, real quickly on Bryce Young, I'm not out on him yet. It's one year it was a terrible team around him.

Stroud had a much better supporting cast in Houston. But as the GM, he was in charge when they traded Christian McCaffrey at the trade deadline to the 49ers. I mean, that was a massive deal. He got four picks back from San Francisco. It's possible that Adam Peters was a part of those. conversations. None of the picks were first-round picks, and McCaffrey, who couldn't stay healthy ever in Carolina as a Panther has barely missed any time as a 49er. The trade he didn't make was probably the biggest miss for the franchise and the one he gets criticized for the most. The Rams

offered two first-round picks and a third-rounder for Brian Byrne. and the Panthers and Fitterer passed on the deal. He thought that they could get him signed to a long-term deal last off season. They didn't. And the new regime, he was replaced by Dan Morgan, who actually worked for him. They ended up getting him traded to the Giants for a second and a fifth, but they had to give up a fifth. So basically, you know, they netted a second rounder when they were offered two ones. and a three by the Rams.

None of the first round picks that he had during his reign as the GM in Carolina have amounted to very much so far. He missed a lot more in free agency than he hit. His single best roster edition while he was the GM was probably signing Frankie Louvre, now a Washington commander, when he signed him to a $1.1 million, $1 one-year deal in 2021.

It was thought that Louvo would come in and be a special teams player primarily. He turned out to be much more than that. What Fitterer is going to do here in D.C.? I don't know. Ben Standing broke the news earlier today, wrote that he will be a personnel executive here. You know, the front office right now, like org chart-wise, in terms of at the top or near the top. It's Adam Peters as the general manager.

Lance Newmark is the assistant general manager. Brad Sosna is the senior VP of Football Operations. Dave Garty, the guy they hired from the league, where he had worked for 21 years, is the senior vice president of football initiatives. Rob Rogers is the VP of Football Administration. Martin Mayhew, his title is. senior personnel executive and advisor to Peters.

David Blackburn is the director of player personnel. And now Scott Fitterer is a personnel executive. Remember, I think Marty Herney is still hanging around as an advisor. And they have, I think still in a role of being an advisor, former Warriors GM, Bob Myers. I can't tell you, nor can anybody else really right now, whether or not the front office that they have put together and are continuing to put together is going to be a great one or even just a productive one. But three things are very clear. The first is this.

The front office people, the front office group right now is larger than what it was and really larger than it has. has been in a long, long time. And I don't think he's done yet. He still has, you know, a lot of different hires potentially to make on the scouting side, or maybe a lot of those guys will stay in place. We'll see. But the group that they have in their front office is large. Secondly, this front office includes more football executive experience than it has in a long time than it ever really did under Snyder.

And then thirdly, what's really become apparent, I've said this previously, is that people aren't afraid to come to Washington anymore. It's not the toxic turnoff that it was for so long. You know, people who are spoken highly of around the league are coming here. So we'll see. But another addition to the front office and another edition of someone with vast front office experience. Scott Fitterer has been, you know, an exec for basically 10 years, a high level front office guy for 10 and he's been in the league for 26 years now. So one other thing that I wanted to get to here in the open to the show. Joe Thysman was on my radio station last week with Craig Hoffman. I was off radio last week, and we have Joe on all the time, and I'll probably have Joe on as we

get closer to training camp. But he said something that made headlines while I was away last week. Joe told Craig talking about Jaden Daniels. He said, quote, he isn't and shouldn't play in the preseason, closed quote. So Joe doesn't think that Jaden Daniels should play in the preseason. He also went on to say, quote, why would you put your starting quarterback out there? they would tear Dan, as in Dan Quinn, apart if Jaden Daniels got hurt in the preseason. Closed quote. So let me just say very quickly that when Joe said he isn't and then went on to say and shouldn't play in the preseason,

I don't think he was reporting something. I don't think Joe was telling us that he knows that Jaden Daniels isn't going to play in the preseason from people that he's talked to out in Ashburn. I think it was just his way of emphasizing what he thinks, which is that he shouldn't play in the preseason. I'm actually surprised by Joe's answer. I think, you know, Joe, going back to Dwayne Haskins, the last, you know, first round quarterback that they had, I think Joe wanted Dwayne to play in that particular preseason. Now it's very possible that Joe didn't think of Dwayne in the same way that he thinks of Jaden

right now. And I would understand that. Not to mention, Dwayne really wasn't in the running to be the starter from the beginning of that 2019 season. And Jaden is, you know, not only is he the front runner to be the starter. There's really nobody in his way. But I think Jaden should play in the preseason. I think he should take snaps in the preseason games. I'm not suggesting that you roll out your offense in a preseason game, but I absolutely think he should be playing in the preseason, a series maybe in the first game, you know, a two to three series, you know, a quarter plus in the second game. Remember, there are only three preseason games. It's been that way for a few summers now. They play the Jets and the Dolphins in the first two preseason games. Look, I think

the preseason is not an indication of anything that is to come in the regular season. and I think it's one of the worst products in all of sports for us. But for them, first and foremost, it's about, you know, nailing down your back end of your roster typically. You know, roster spots 45 through 53 or on a team that's, you know, more veteran, maybe roster spots 49 through 53. But I do think for quarterbacks and young quarterbacks in particular, the game conditions and, you know, getting the plays called in,

through your headset and then calling the plays in the huddle and having a play clock that you've got to adhere to and an opponent that you don't know. And then throwing the ball, you know, a few times in the first game and maybe 10 to 15 times in the second game can't hurt and can only help. I would be shocked if he doesn't play in the preseason. I actually went back and looked at what Quinn and Kingsbury did as head coaches. with the preseason starting quarterbacks. So in Atlanta, Quinn had Matt Ryan, who was already a veteran quarterback,

but Matt Ryan played the first three preseason games every single year that Quinn was there, except for the last year that Quinn was there. And that's because they played the Hall of Fame game, which is, you know, the standalone super early preseason game. So Quinn clearly has a history as a head. coach of playing his starting quarterback. By the way, let me add to that. In one of the preseason games, I think it was the second or third season, Ryan threw it 22 times and a half. So a lot of the games you saw 10, 11, 12, 13 attempts from Ryan. Kingsbury, when he was the head coach in

Arizona, he had a rookie quarterback, the number one overall selection in the 2019 draft. Kyler Murray, Guess what? Kyler Murray played the first three games of the preseason in 2019. He played the first three in 2019. 2020, there wasn't a preseason because of the pandemic. And then in 2021, he played either one or two of the three that were scheduled. But in his third preseason game of his rookie year, he threw the ball 21 times. So Kingsbury basically had him out there for a half, chucking it around the field, which I've always felt is the one thing that the better teams and the better quarterbacks over the years you have seen teams will play those guys and not ask them to hand the ball off.

They want them to get into a rhythm in the passing game with their receivers and then get out. So both these guys have a history of playing their starting quarterbacks in the play. preseason. So I'm expecting the same with Jaden Daniels when we get to Saturday, August 10th in the Meadowlands against the Jets. It'll be here before we know it. Can't wait. All right. Charlie Casserly coming up, but before we get to Charlie, if you get a chance to rate and review the show, we're now down to the final month and a half before the regular season starts. And ratings and reviews of this show on Apple and Spotify are big for us. So if you haven't rated or reviewed the show,

especially on Apple and Spotify, and you can take 30 to 60 seconds to pause the podcast, give us five stars if you think we deserve it, and write a quick one to two sentence review. It's really, really helpful for us. And then subscribing to the podcast and following us on Apple and Spotify are huge as well. All right, Charlie Casserly next, right after these words, from a few of our sponsors.

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And I am looking at right now one of the NFL futures opportunities, and that is the odds on NFL offensive rookie of the year. Caleb Williams is the favorite at plus 136. And then the next pick is Jaden Daniels at plus 590. Marvin Harrison Jr.'s plus 680. And then you get a big drop off to J.J. McCarthy at plus 1550. So you want to bet on Jaden Daniels to be the NFL offensive rookie of the year. Right now at my bookie, you can get him at plus 590.

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So get on out to Nats Park Sunday to honor Charlie and a bunch of the new inductees into the 2024 D.C. Sports Hall of Fame class. Charlie, you know, I have, I don't know how many times I've talked to you over the years. It's been a lot. And it's always been, you know, kind of the team or the league. And of course, we've gone down memory lane a lot too. But I have had on my list of things to do when I've had time, especially on the podcast, to find out more about Charlie Casserly. Because you're always talking about other people and you're a pretty humble guy.

but I want to learn a little bit about Charlie Casserly now that he's going into the D.C. Sports Hall of Fame, so I hope you'll indulge me here. Well, you know, who is our famous broadcaster on Channel 9? Glenn Brenner. Glenn Brenner said I'd make a great prisoner of war that I answer question. So anyway, go ahead. I'm not so sure about that.

Well, so the first thing, because I did a little bit of reading today about you, you grew up in Bergen County, New Jersey. You were a high school football coach in Massachusetts before coming to D.C. to take an unpaid internship to work for George Allen. I know many of us that have followed the team for years are familiar with, you know, you came in as an intern, et cetera. and then the next 22 years, you're in D.C., 11 of those as a GM. But I'm wondering why you didn't pursue a life as a coach. Were you a good coach? I thought I was, but it's a good question because here's what happened. You know, I wrote 28 letters.

First, I wrote one to Georgetown. He was my hero in coaching, okay? and I coached in Division III football and I was a high school coach. So, and I wanted to get into college coaching. My goal was to coach in the pros, okay, which was absurd, but that was my goal. So it looked like I was going to go to Lafayette

in Pennsylvania and be an assistant coach because back then, you know, those stats wouldn't have a full staff at that part-time. That coached or coached and have another job, and I was going to, you know, teach in the area and coachee. So then one day I said, you know what, I'm going to write George Lange letter. And the next day I said, you know what? This isn't all.

I'm going to write 27 other letters. So I write 28 letters. I get 22 responses, Kevin, which is a shock to me. Right. I'm sitting there, and I got a letter from Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Bart Starr, Tom Landry. And I'm thinking, wow, because he's autographs. I got this great. But I got two interviews, one with the Redskins back then and one with the Patriots.

And the guy who answered my letter was a guy named Kim Terrario, okay, not Coach Allen. So then I came in and interviewed with Tim Terrario, and then I interviewed with Bobby Mitchell, and then I interviewed with George, okay? And George's interview was he wanted to know how it was going to help the Redskins. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, coach he had his backlets. You're going to help me get a good college coach. coaching job at the end of this, with you're stationary. Okay?

So that was what I was thinking, is that, you know, obviously, if you go with the Redskins for a while, you're going to have a chance to make something of it. So anyway, in the interview, Tim starts off. He's first, and now Tim, a little history, he broke Woody Hayes into coaching. Okay. Okay?

We gave Woody Hayes for his job. So Tim's about 72. Looks like he's 52, got the energy of somebody 32. So he said, he must you hear about the internship. Kevin, I have no idea what he's talking about. Okay, I'm just looking for a chance, okay? And I said, well, I'm here for the internship. Then he says, well, you know, you go a year for, and you work for nothing,

and if we like you, we'll hire you for $10,000 to be a scout. And I go, I'm thinking to myself, nowhere in my letter does I say it work for nothing. But what else am I going to say? Yeah, I got it, no problem. He says, how are you going to hail? I got it. I got it.

I got it. I got $500 in the bank. I got a car with $120,000 miles on it. That's all beating. jump. Two years before that, I lost everything I owned in a fire, had no insurance. So my furniture was from Salvation Army and Goodwill, and my bed at that point was a mattress on the fork because a bed fell apart. And I'm sitting there saying, I got this covered, okay? Which I don't. So I'm going to meet George Allen. So anyway, so Tim, one of the things Tim told me is,

don't tell me want to coach meaning George Allen he don't trust anybody on 35 okay that's we're not going to tell

we're going to coach right so not that I expected that I didn't know what they expect to that it would give me

so so then we start off and he says well tell me about yourself okay and we're not

five minutes into this thing and he jumps up and he looks to me he says five minutes I can analyze anybody in the world

holy cow I don't know if he did good or bad I just got Kreskin or something Wait, what did he say it again, Charlie? What did he say? He said in five minutes, and he held up five fingers.

I can analyze anybody in the world. Okay? So that was my five-minute interview. Right. So I go to the next guy, which was Bobby Mitchell. I think he emphasized to be just do your job. These guys come in here and they're always trying to meet coached Alic.

Just do your job, okay? So I got that. The one thing I had gone from, I was 28 years old. and I had been a high school coach, I was a Division III coach, a young assistant Division III. I knew what I wanted to do, okay? I wanted to get into college coaching, okay?

So I knew this was my final exam. This was it, okay? A chance of a lifetime. So then Bobby Mitchell was great. Do your job. So I go to meet another guy. I won't give you his name. And he said, I don't know why you're here.

I said, what do you mean? He says, we just hired somebody last week. What the heck? So I go back and see Tim. Now, Tim was an explosive personality. So he kind of yelled at you and he says, well, how did the first interview go? He says, oh, good. Oh, he always said, how did the interviews go?

I said, well, good and bad. He's going to be good and bad. I saw, all the first one was good. The second one, the guy said you hired somebody last week. Now I'm thinking here, as I'm walking back to see, Tim, wait a minute, I'm applying for a job that doesn't exist and doesn't pay. What am I doing here? Okay. And he said, we don't pay attention to that guy anyway.

You're going to go see Coach Allen. So I go see Coach Allen. okay and this this is more than a one of a million shot we're in I write the letter in April this is May you know back then they didn't have OTAs okay and so May is kind of a dead month after the draft see so he's got really the afternoon off

I don't know that so we start the interview and these week is going to go downstairs and work out so we start the interview talking to the back of his head you know George was obsessive about time management so we go into the locker a room, go into the tournament he's changing.

We don't stop the interview. He's to go upstairs and write five ways you're going to help the Redskins. Okay? So I'm thinking, you know, coach who got his back which is supposed to be helping me, but I go upstairs. So I sit down, I'm in the coach's conference from. Okay? This is where they meet. So I don't know what to write about. So I come up with things like, you know, I can maybe do some scouting.

I could do some game scouting because I had done game scouting in college. do film breakdowns. I'm scratching here. I could do administrative stuff. I've been an athletic director. It was really enough. What can I do to help him, really? So he comes up.

This is why it's a million a shot, a million a one shot. It's like 3 o'clock in the afternoon when he finally comes up. I've been up since 4 o'clock in the morning. We sit down in his office, and I'm like, I'm 10 feet away from at least on a couch. And he holds up a sandwich. It's peanut butter on whole week. He goes, peanut butter on whole week.

that's the opening line in the interview. I have no idea what to say. So I said, Coach, must be good. He says, yeah, try it sometime. They don't offer me anything to eat or drink, okay? But we talk for an hour, okay? I can't tell you what we talked about because I don't really remember the conversation. There was one thing in one of his books I used specifically in coaching,

and I remember telling him about it. I don't know what it is now. Into the interview, he says to me, he says, what I'm looking for is a guy like I was 26 years ago. I'll open the place up in the morning and close it up at night. Now, that's a quote from magazine article from 1973, and I had kept the article, and I had read it the night before. And so then I asked him for his autograph, okay, which was for somebody in town. I told nobody I was doing this.

No one would believe it anyway. So there was a big red-skinned fan. It was a big booster of the high school football program. And so I got it, flew home, gave it to him. He had no idea where it came from. Okay. And I went about the Patriots the next week, Chuck Fairbanks was the head coach. And they were immensely been successful.

I think it was the year in the championship game and got screwed on a bad call in Oakland won the game. So he's like the hot name of football. So he had done this with a guy before named Ernie Adams, who was in history, is Belichick's best friend and worked for him a lot of time. So they had a kept Ernie. And they were looking for a guy to do defensive work. So we go to an interview. He never looks at me. He looks out the window the whole time.

Okay? I believe it. We have an interview, and he calls in his defensive staff, and he says, you know, we're not going to pay this guy. He says, but we're not going to bring him there unless you guys individually can guarantee him you get him a college coaching job next year. He made each one of them say yes. And back then, you had unlimited coaches.

So really wasn't that hard of a thing for them to say that. I mean, they had to produce it. Right. But it wasn't like it is. today. So then, you know, we finished the interview, so, you know, he'll be in touch. So again, nobody knows what I've done, right? So on, I'm coaching track, and I come down to go to track practice, and I interview with him on a Monday, and I agree with the Redskins like a week before Wednesday or Thursday. So I haven't heard anything with him. What happened when you left

Washington? What did George Allen, what did he say to you? Oh, he's right. I'm sorry, he gave me a homework assignment. He said, write up three ways in more detail, how are you going to help the Redskins, write up what you haven't done in football and what you'd like to do, and what you change in football. That was my three assignments. Okay. I had a master's degree.

I worked harder on that that I did anything else in college. And I mailed it back to him, okay? What was it, do you remember anything that you said? Do you remember what you'd change? No. What you said about it? The only thing I remember, and obviously it was quite long, was that I would develop a minor league type program to develop players. You had the Continental League and things like that.

I said, I would expand that program where you could develop players, and I went into that. Anyway. So you mail that back to him. You've got the interview with the Patriots with Fairbanks, and now you're coaching track at a high school. in Massachusetts. Right. So I walked down to go check my mailbox, and there's a note now from Chuck Fairbanks.

It says Chuck Fairbanks called. Okay, now nobody knows that I went for this interview. Okay? I called in sick for the day it took off. Right. So I go to the switchboard operator, and I says, I got a note here from Chuck Fairbanks. You didn't come and get me?

Oh, there's some guy called up and said he's Chuck Fairbanks. You don't, he, Chuck Fairbanks, doesn't know you. You don't know Chuck Fairbanks. I just told the guy. I hung up on a guy. I said, oh my God. So I get on a phone. I call a Fairbank secretary.

He wants to talk to you, 1130 tomorrow. Okay, fine. So now I got to call Coach Allen. And I don't really believe I even did this. I called up a secretary. I said, listen, I got the proletal of the Patriots 1130 tomorrow. I have to talk to coach at 1015 tomorrow morning because, you know, I'm teaching now. So you, you know, you're locked into what your class schedule is.

Right. Okay. And you don't have a phone. It's cell phones didn't exist. You have to borrow an office phone. So I know, you can get. get one at 1015. So I call back and I get a coach on the phone.

And he's now. We want to come back to why I want it to scouting when I'm done with this. So I get him on the phone. He says, well, I got your letter. I gave it to Tim to read. I'm thinking, he said, I was out the barbershop and I gave it to Tim to read. And we both liked your letter. I'm thinking Tim's the barber.

Why is the barber reading this? But no, it's Tim Terrarian. Right. Okay. So he just wants you to come and be in our intern program. I said, coach, I'm very excited about that. But I want to hear from the Patriots. I'm going to talk to him today.

He says the Patriots. He's Chuck Fairbanks. I taught him everything he knows. He wouldn't want to gain without me. This is our coach. I'm sure he's appreciative of that, but I want to hear from the Fairbanks. This is really stupid on my part. I got no leverage.

So, but I don't know anybody about it. So he says, what are they offering you? What am I going to say, right? Nothing. I said, an internship. So he says, well, I invented the internship. Well, Dick Ramil took it for me. Chuck Fairbanks took it.

to me. I wanted to say, Coach, you didn't work working for nothing, but you can't say it. So then even being dumber than I could possibly be, I says, Coach, I still want to hear from the Patriots. So then he turns into this and he says, well, you know, if you even have to think about working for me, George Allen, you're not

the guy we want. So like an idiot, I said, well, I still want to hear from the Patriots. So I call a Patriot's 1130. They won't be come down for a four-day try-out in minicam, which was fair. And I said, no, I'm going to go for the with a residence. I call them back, which, in retrospect, I did talk to somebody, so it had to be a secretary.

And then so I ended up going there. And so I came down here. Were you concerned? Were you concerned after you? I mean, because it sounds like you get George almost trying to pitch you a little bit because there's some competition. But then the last thing he says to you is, well, if you don't know right now that you should be working for me instead of Chuck Fairbanks,

then you're probably not the guy for the job anyway. I mean, when you hung up from that, weren't you concerned? Well, what he had said was, I counted what I want to hear from. He says, I want an answer today. I said, you'll have an answer today. Oh, okay, got it. So he got an answer today. He got an answer.

Yeah. And then did you think about telling him that the Patriots intern program paid? No. No. I wouldn't have done that because it was dishonest. But I wouldn't have, that would push it that far. I put it far enough. Yeah.

So then two weeks after that, on my mattress on the floor, I wake up on a Sunday morning. Kevin, I'm scared to that. I wake out in a cold sweat. I said, what have I done? I got no job. Okay, I got no money. Okay? I don't know if I even know if I can get there and I have no place to live, but I have no job.

I quit my teaching job at the end up, you know, YMC in Alexandria, eight bucks a night. Okay? did that for two weeks we went to camp camp was almost two months long back there right so I was you know I was the intern

I was only one intern and it was short of PR guys so I answered the camp phone from seven of the point to 11 at night I was the Turk I cut players at 630 in the morning we had like 120 players so it was a lot of cuts

I worked in PR whenever I could because it was only one guy I ran errands for the coaches I mean, I ran, you know, literally go to the store and get this. I did some breakdowns for them. I did some scouting. I do of everything. I only went to two practices, the whole training here.

We scrimmaged the Eagles and we scrimmaged the Red Colts. I went to see them. But I only went to two practices. One, I sold press guys for a quarter, and I got to keep it. So that was it. So anyway, go to the fall. College Scout, I'm on the road, okay? I'm not going to make any money, but they pay for the hotel when I come to town.

So we get to December, there's no hotel. So Mark Murphy, the player, is a room-in-with-a-name Charlie Taylor, who was a PR guy and a player named Duncan McCall. They offered me to couch for December. So I slept on a couch. But McCall was leaving in January, so I had to start paying. It was like $200 a month. But they had told me they were going to hire me. Okay, but it wasn't going to be until February.

So at least I know something was coming. Well, what happens is Coach Allen gets let go. Right. Okay, and so I'm in limbo. But I'm going to get, but I'm going to get off, I get off of the scouting contract, okay? Because there's personal people who wanted to keep me. This is before Beth I got hired. But Billy Hickman, who was one of our assistants, who was maybe the most respected coach on the team,

he was a, to call him a quality control coach would be an insult. But he was to help with the defensive game plans, and he was George's right-hand man. okay he said to me he said he come in one day said he knew i was in limbo and he says i was trying to make a decision he says a thousand guys go into coaching every year nobody goes into scouting you go into scouting with the work ethic coaches have you'll go someplace meaning nobody goes into scouting and i'm thinking okay but i'll offer a contract okay and um uh what's my ultimate you know go find some college assistant coaching job somewhere division two or maybe Lucky Division 1 at a lower level school.

So I take the scouting job. And I just stayed in scouting from that point on. But that was what that forced me out of coaching into scouting, which was obviously a good career move. Okay. So the Patriots, though, the offer that they were making was a potential, you know, path to being a college coach a year later. Right? I mean, that's what Fairbanks had said. And instead, you decided, this is George Allen. I'm going to go there and see what happens.

Well, no, even though George is my hero in coaching and obviously a Hall of Fame coach. Patriots wanted me to go to a four-day minicamp tryout. Oh, right, the trial thing. Yes. Okay. Right. So I said, no, I'm not going to gamble on a trial. I'm going to take what I got. You mentioned that when you came down to interview for whatever it was you didn't know what you were interviewing for. I mean, it was the internship, as it turns out, that your house had caught on fire two days earlier. No, that was two years before that. Oh, two years before that. Got it.

Yeah, lost everything. I went to church, came home, and my roommate and I were on the third floor of the three-family house. It was up in smoke. So we lost everything. If we had been asleep, Kevin, we would have never got now. So fortunately, ironically, we're in church. We survived. Lossed everything, but we survived. Obviously, you're sleeping on a mattress at the Y in Alexandria. You're not married yet. Correct. Yeah. That would have been interesting. All right. So tell me about, you told me about what you did that first year.

And I'm guessing, Charlie, based on what you said, Bill Hickman, that was his name? Billy Hickman, essentially saw... He advised me to go into scouting and go that route. And he saw on you a guy that would do anything that had the work ethic, had the drive, had the desire, and said that this is actually the area where that work ethic will pay off for you. Right. So what happens when Betherd comes in after Alan leaves at the end of that year? And Bethard wants to bring in a lot of his people.

How did you get along with Bobby to begin with? And what did he think of you and what did he want you to do? Well, I had a contract, which obviously they could have fired me and paid me. But Bobby came in. He brought one guy with him, as I remember, Dickie Daniels, and nobody else. And he retained everybody. And so I just went to work as a scout for him. and then, you know,

obviously like me because I kept getting contract extensions. Was there a moment early on with Bethard where, you know, it was the moment where they knew you knew what you were doing, whether it was, you know, identifying a player. Do you remember one of those first things that you did where you're like, wow, I belong and they know it?

what I remember my first scatting trip when Bobby was a general manager I went to a college, don't name it, and I had a guy rated high by the combine. I looked at the tape and I did the guys very good. So I came back, so I'm really not sure what to do here. So Bobby said, what did you think? This is Bobby.

I said, I think he's a guy very good. I went through all the reasons why, and he says, yeah, and he says, but the combine's got the guy rated high. He says, ignore the combo. What do they know? you know, believe what you see.

Okay? The combine, and the scoutsers usually are combined scouts. This wasn't necessarily the case when I started, as it evolved into it, usually were the beginning scouts. The guys at the combine, when I started were veteran scouts were really good.

But obviously, we didn't agree on this player, and the player ended up not being good anyway. So I don't know if that's a, it's a moment when I learned something. Okay. Just do the tape, make your evaluation, and that's it. And you were ultimately proven right on the player. Yeah.

All right, let's take a quick break. We've got more with Charlie Casserly right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, most of us are interested in our mental and physical well-being to a certain degree. And with that in mind, I'd like to welcome and introduce a new sponsor to the podcast. The new sponsor is Unified Healing, Unified spelled UniFYD Healing. It doesn't matter if you're a big-time world-class athlete or just a somewhat athletic podcaster like me. We all understand the importance of mental and physical well-being and proper recovery for top-notch performance. That's why I'm excited that Unified Healing is sponsoring the podcast now.

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really knew Charlie knows what he's doing. Is there a specific moment or a player that stands out as that first, you know, strong recommendation that you hit on? Well, you know, Bostick was a guy that I liked, okay? But I knew we weren't going to draft him. It was 245 pounds. Right. Okay, and we tried to sign and we end up going with Philadelphia.

We've got them the next year. So Jacoby was, now this is a few years into this now because this is the 81 draft. Right. Was a guy that I went in December, November, excuse me, November. And when you see a guy tells you a lot about him. Jake was raised as a free agency, free agent guy. So put the tape on, and he blocks a guy named Mizna from Pittsburgh who ended up being a third-round draft choice. He shuts him out.

Then he blocks a guy named Galloway from Florida, second-round draft choice. He shuts him out. Okay. So I'm thinking, why is this guy doing it? Well, he's big and he stays on his feet. He's got long arms. Okay. And so I come back, nobody likes the guy. Look at the tape. Nobody likes it. Okay. So what's great about Bobby is he let you follow your thoughts all the way through the end. So Buegel and I went to work him out in the spring. And Jake had gotten, you know, on the weights and he transformed his body. He was still, you know, six, seven, three hundred and some pounds, but the body looked like a football. player now, wasn't in the fall. And Bues fell in love with the guy, but nobody, we would, they wouldn't draft them. We don't have a five off as a line of them. Yeah. But I

recruited Jake All-Spring. Because Dallas had a very aggressive college-free agent system. And I was determined that I would have a list of guys that I'd go recruit all spring and that you would get him. And luckily, Jake got on the plane

and came in, and he's stiff Dallas. And the famous story is Joe thought he was a defensive Lyman. Jake didn't want to say no, and he signed a contract. Yes. Okay? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, before that, it all runs together, to be honest with you. It does, but the Jake's story is a great one. I mean, when he signs and thinks he's a defensive lineman, does anybody tell Joe? Oh, later, they did. They tell Coach Gibbs gives. They told Coach, he's an offensive lineman, and Gibbs is saying, well, how do we get out of the contract? Joe, we don't. We got him. Because, you know, at that point, how many offensive linemen do you need?

Because we need a defensive alignment. Right. After the draft, what's an offensive alignment? Yeah, it was May grim to start that draft. Yeah, and then by June, he had already locked in a starting position. When did you start thinking about I can be a general manager in this league? I don't know if I ever thought I could be a general manager per se. I'll get into the, you know, when we got hired by a GM.

But, you know, once I got in, I said, okay, I'm going to stay in this because I'm in the NFL. Okay, let's not be stupid about something here. So I wrote down all the things that GM had to be able to do. And I just, you know, over time I started working on them as best as you can in the position you had, okay? Which the one thing you weren't going to do is negotiate big-time contracts. Back then, there was one person who did the contracts, and that was a general manager. else. So you weren't going to get experience doing that, but I ran training

camp, which was helpful. I did all the league office communications, so I knew the rules. I did that. You know, Bobby did the trades, but you could be, you're on, you weren't trained conversations with teams set and trades up. So when the USFL came

and, you know, that was if we wanted I won a first Super Bowl, I got off the two GM jobs in the USFL, which wasn't uncommon for people in my position. and they turn them both down. I'm making $30,000 a year. And, you know, my wife is working, and, you know,

would want to start a family and all that. I mean, the money would have been great. But I didn't want to go there. I wanted to be in the NFL. Okay? I wasn't smart enough to realize they might fault in three years, okay? Right. But that was it.

I said, I'm going to go there. I'm going to come back here. What were the two jobs? What were the franchises? I'd rather not say, but it's true, okay? Okay. No, I believe you. I'm just curious.

Yeah. Was, I mean, I was wondering whether or not one of them was the Washington Federals. No, it was not the Federals. Was it Trump's team in New Jersey? No, and don't go through the rest of the team. Okay, that's it. Anyway, those are the only people. The pay would have been about $115,000.

It would have been what? $150,000. It would have been $150,000 to you. And you were making $30? Yeah. Wow. What did your wife say? She said, do the right thing.

Which is don't go. But no, it was a, we were a good team, and I just believed in the long run to stay in the NFL. That was the thing I believed in. Okay. I can't tell you. I interviewed with another NFL team and came out of there and said, no, I don't want to go there.

there was two other one other inquiry I turned down the interview and there was another one I met with the owner and just you know didn't follow up on the thing told them I wasn't interested okay

I had a great job in Washington you know your Bobby Beth was the general manager assistant general manager you got Joe Gibbs and Jack can't cook don't take a bad job right okay don't take a big you got a chance to win to go

so somewhere in there um I says you know I think I can do this job. Okay. You're never going to be fully prepared or think you're fully ready at the time. But as assistant general manager, I was at constant communication with the owner. Bobby knew and Joe knew it. That's the way Cook wanted to communicate. So when Bobby left, which was a surprise and not a surprise, then Mr. Cook promoted me. I want to get back to it was a surprise and it wasn't a surprise in a moment. But when did you, because

I don't know the answer to this. When did you become the true number two, the assistant general manager to Bobby? Well, it was 82 after training camp. So, but, you know, in the realm, it was really, you know, Bobby treated everybody the same, okay? If you were a scout, assistant GM, director of pro scouting, he treated everybody the same, and everybody knew it. It was one guy in charge, but he listened to everybody.

He gave everybody input, then he made the decision. So that was the difference, okay, on that part. The difference from being the assistant GM is you did all the legal office paperwork, okay? And I ran training camp for a while. And then you also communicated with Mr. Cook on a weekly basis. Okay. So when he came time to become a GM, he knew me. okay so there wasn't an interview i've been i've been interviewing for seven years what why was it

you doing the communicating with cook and not bobby bethirt well bobby was too bobby was too yeah so but uh uh how were those meetings how were those meetings on a weekly basis it was all by phone and i basically gave my breakdown of the game okay uh and and that was pretty much it. There'd be other things that might come up, but that was the basic part of it. Did he understand football? Was he a good football fan, like a guy that got football and understood it or not? I would say he was well above average for an owner. Okay? He was not a rookie at it. He understood pro sports. He understood coaching, understood the ups and downs. He understood the job that everybody was doing. One of his mentors was

branch Ricky when he owned the Toronto Maple Leafle's baseball team. So he obviously broke in under a legend. And you know, we had Lombardi and George Allen and all them. So I mean, there were good people that he obviously learned from.

He's run the Lakers and the Kings. I mean, the guy had experience. So what he was great at was he listened to you and the head coach and nobody else. Right. And he was demanding, but he was extremely loyal. I he hired me, he gave me fair contracts.

When we had to rebuild the team, when the cap came in and we had to just gut the team, he stuck right with the rebuild. Unfortunately, he didn't make it to the end. But, no, he was a great owner, demanding, but a great owner. I want to just go back to George Allen for a moment, because he was your coaching hero, and ultimately he was, along with this guy, Tim, they gave you this opportunity for the, you know, to get into the league as an unpaid intern, and you made the rest of a, of it after that.

And by the way, just the idea that you sent, you know, 28 letters out and a bunch of teams got back to you, I just don't see that happening in this day and age, but you were clearly a hustler. And what did you ever get a chance to spend time with George Allen, or were you just doing lots of other stuff and really weren't a part of the staff? I mean, what was the ultimate end, you know, game experience with George Allen? It was minimal. Yeah.

I figured that out right away when I got there. I never expected it. I went back to Bobby Mitchell, just do your job. Okay, so I just worked my ass over. Did my job. A lot of my interaction in camp was, you know, run errands for them. That's fine. I get that.

Somebody got to do it. Right. You know, one Saturday, we played on a Friday night, and, you know, the players were awful. well, I got nowhere to go, so I'm in camp. I'm right. I still got to answer the phone. And I guess I don't know why, but somehow I ended up sitting on the floor watching special teams to film with him.

You always started with the special teams. I don't know. Maybe I went in there to give him some. He said, sit down. So I got the one coaching meeting, a one player meeting. And I don't know. I guess I shouldn't have been there. Might as well, I sat down.

There was the last one that was in. Okay. So, no, he doesn't watch in there. It's okay. I don't take it personal. So on that And then I observed how we worked

How we operated So I learned a lot of Concepts there And then At the end of the season Bruce His son is in the Can Am All-Star game And I was sent down to scouted

So I got to meet Bruce and Greg And hung out with them And coach asked me to do that So if they needed anything I could help him And then when I came back we sat down about our interview

and just talked about you know, what's going to happen from here and what are you thinking and he made a comment he says, you know,

if you went to Michigan in Ohio State, which I didn't have an opportunity to do, he says, you know, Bush and Bellick or Woody Hayes

wouldn't spend this time with you. Probably right. So, so we had that conversation and of course he left. Ironically, I helped him clean out his office with his secretary.

Again, I was there, okay? Right. So, and got another autograph by that one I kept

and then he did offer me a job later with the Rams in other words, one or two later. I already signed with Washington and the fact I went to his house for dinner and he offered me a job

and he said, what we make? I just coach, you weren't paying me. He said, I can give you a good raise. I says, coach,

I'm going to stay in Washington. So, and obviously, he got fired two preseason games, so I was lucky. Do you really? remember anything about that first team?

The way you described your job, I'm wondering, did you even get a chance to watch the games live ever? In 77? In 77? Yeah, if I was home, which I was, they gave me tickets. Yeah. And I got to go to home games. Now, sometimes I might be on a road scouting and I'd get home.

But if I was in town, they gave me tickets to the game, yeah. You know, because that was the season really where Joe Thaisman starts to play some, but Kilmer comes back later in the year, and there was a lot of that, you know, Kilmer-Thysman stuff, you know, going on that year and the following year as well. What do you remember about that? Not really much, to be honest with you. So, you know, I may remember. I remember some of the next year, you know, I went to some games, but they moved me to

Chicago for a couple of years, so I didn't see many games after that. Because you had the Midwest? Yeah, they wanted me to have the Midwest. I want somebody to live there. Yeah, got it. Have the Midwest. Interesting. How, did you and Bobby get along right from the jump?

What was the relationship like between you and Bobby? It was fine. He got along with everybody. He's just that kind of a person. You said that it was a surprise when he left, but it also wasn't a surprise. Explain. The feeling among the scouting staff is that, you know, he was going. He didn't tell us anything. We just had a gut on the thing.

And then when it was announced, obviously it took Joe by surprise and took Mr. Cook by surprise and John Cook by surprise. We just had a feeling that he might be going, but we didn't know. I mean, you're, you know. We just did our job is what it was. Yeah, well, it sounds like that. was part of the organization. You, I didn't ask you about 87 and what a challenge that was to put together the, you know, the replacement teams.

Tell me, tell me about that, because obviously you guys did it brilliantly. Yeah, we signed a few players, and I don't remember how many. I didn't think it was a lot of players. I saw some place where they said we signed 20 players at the end of camp. I don't remember a few 20 players. we did cite some guys to future contracts, which you could. And then about the Wednesday before the strike, the thing you have to understand is nobody knew what it was coming.

And so, you know, I jumped in and started, you know, getting players lined up, and then that weekend, Kirkmey and Billy Devaney come off the road. They busted their asses with me. And we were able to get something like 50 players in on that first Tuesday to practice. So, like three teams in the league at 50 players. and we thought that was a key you got them anywhere and everywhere

got some good players got some players that weren't very good but you had to fill spots so we tried to get guys on offense to do the system we didn't want to hire if we want to pay anybody any money that was an ex great player so to speak

like Everson Walls he didn't have a job why would be paying him anyway so we wanted guys who knew the system on offense defense you didn't really have to know the system so much because it was going to be simple what you did. And, you know, I think and Gibbs was a huge key because he made those kids believe

that they were there for a reason. And the coaches did a great job coaching him. All right, so Bobby leaves. Tell me about getting the general manager job. Well, remember, I had been talking to cook for seven years. Right. Okay, and this thing hits, you know, because I was assistant GM.

So what happens was all of a sudden it leaks that Bobby's going. Okay? So I talked to Cook that night, and I don't really remember the conversation. Okay, but he kind of indicated, you know, he indicated I was going to be the general manager, okay? Because I know when I came in that morning I was a general manager. So he walks, we have a meeting with John Cook, Bobby, Mr. Cook, and Joe. and, uh, he, Mr. Cook goes, okay, this is how the meeting is going to go.

I'm going to say something. Bob, by, for him, for you going to say something. Joe, you're going to say something. I'm going to get up and Charlie or the general manager. Let's go. So, uh, then, so I said, Mr. Cook, should I say anything? He's now you don't have to say anything. So as we're walking to, uh, to walk into the press conference,

you know, you probably ought to say something. Okay, so I'll say something. Yeah. So that was it. So what do you remember? from that day and that introductory. By the way, what about negotiating a contract? How did that get done so quick?

Did it just get done quickly, or did you just trust that it would get done? Well, you're going to get no leverage, okay? So whatever he puts in front of you're going to sign. That's it. So he said to me, somewhere in a, say, hey, we'll work a contract out later, I suggest. And I wasn't worried about that. basically what I said when I got up I said this is a great job I get the best

owner in football the best football the best coach in football okay and that was pretty much what I said thanked him for the opportunity did Joe have any say in it no he didn't but did you and Joe get along yeah we got a long fine

we had X amount of interaction but not a lot, mostly in training camp when I was running camp. Right. But the way Joe ran to personnel meetings, everybody was in there. So every time we had a personnel meeting, he got to hear everybody. So he knew what I thought about players as we went along. Right. I mean, Charlie, I mean, I know I've talked to you about this before,

but I think longtime fans believed that ultimately the reason that Bobby left was that Joe wanted more input into personnel. Was that true or not? I will say no. Did he end up having more involvement in personnel when you became the general manager? No, it was no difference. But he ran a 53, and I had the final say on the draft, okay? But he listened to him on the 53, and he knew it was his decision, okay?

The draft, we were very inclusive. We weren't going to take anybody. If Joe didn't want a guy, we weren't going to take him. But Joe didn't spend a lot of time on the draft. He trusted the scouts and the coaches. Whether it was trades or free agency, Joe got more involved in that, which was fine. But everything was a mutual agreement. We might disagree on some roster things or stuff like that.

But if we disagreed on the film, we just watched the film until we agreed on it. And that was usually with the assistance. What about when Norv was hired? And let me back up. Let me back up. Joe leaves in the spring of 93 after the great 91 team, which I think, the greatest team in franchise history and the greatest team maybe in NFL history. You believe that, right, don't you?

Yes, yes. And then, you know, 92, by the way, you're within a play, a Brian Mitchell, Mark Rippen handoff away from going back to the NFC championship game at Candlestick. Correct. In the mud at Candlestick. And then Joe retires. How caught off guard were you when Joe retired?

It shocked the city, obviously. Yeah. I didn't know he was going to retire. Let's start there. I knew he had, you know, he had, uh, it was a rough season. Uh, and I knew, and I think his father might have passed away during that period, too. I'm not mistaken during that season. Um, but I didn't expect the retirement.

Um, and, you know, it did catch us by surprise and it was in March, so, you know, you really didn't have any options, uh, to stay within the staff. So, um, uh, you know, uh, I don't know if Joe, recommended Richie or not. I have no idea about that. But Mr. Cook said we're hiring Richie Pedible. I said, okay, let's go. And you were okay with that? Yeah, that was fine. I mean, we, you're in a situation where, you know, you aren't going to go, you know, Bill Parcell and Dan Reeves would have been available two months before that. And Mr. Cook would have hired one of them in a minute because, I mean, he hired big time names,

okay? You know, he helped get Lamarty to D.C. So help get George Allen, who is the highest coach in football when he hired him in D.C. So, you know, Richie was a head coach. Richie never had a chance because we were sitting there going to cap in a year, and we had a payroll of $50 million. And we had like eight free agents, and the cap was going to be $32 million. I mean, I tried to put it on paper, and it never worked. So we went out to gut the team, and that was what was going to happen.

So how involved were you in hiring norv turner? You know, we talked about it before, but it was Mr. Cook's hire. It was Mr. Cook's hire. So as the general manager, you know, between 89 and your final season here, 99, you were not involved in the hiring of, well, Norv would have been the hire. I mean, you know, and Richie was the, you know, but that was a Cook decision. Yes. Tell me real quickly.

You've got to understand something here now. This is Jack and Cook, we're talking about. This isn't some young owner. I know. This guy has been an owner forever. He's won championships in really three leagues, okay? And he's going to do what he wants, okay? And we're not going to question that.

I'm fine. Hey, let's go to work. I know, but you at that point are a seasoned executive and have been around for a while. And I'm just curious as to whether or not you had strong opinions one way or the other. Whether you voice them or not is, I get it. But I'm just curious, I mean, with respect to Norv. Well, you know, we discussed a lot of names.

Norv was the first one we were going to interview. And he pulled a trigger on it. So that was it. I know you've told this before, but I know it's one of those things that people who are listening want to know. you've told me this before about the 94 draft, right, that Norve really wanted Heath Shuler and that Dilfer was the player of the two quarterbacks you preferred, correct?

Right, the scouting department preferred Delphor. If Gibbs was a head coach, it would have been Delfer. I knew that because all of us had been trained in Gibbs. So we knew what he liked. Norv wanted a guy that was mobile, okay? You know, Trent was not mobile. Right. So, you know, it was my decision in the end, and I saw, you know, I'm going with the coach.

So it's on me because, you know, that's in my contract, I make the decision. Right. How quickly before you guys knew that that was a mistake? Well, he struggled in camp because he came into camp late, and he came into camp late, which was not his fault. We got a contract concept that had never been done before, and it took a long time to get everyone on the same. page, okay? The agent and I were on the same page right away with it. But getting everybody involved, it took a little time. So he comes in late, gets behind. We beat Dallas in his rookie year. Yeah. Okay? Two touchdown under. 17-point underdog, I'll throw in. Yeah.

Right. So anyway, he, so Friday had started off really good. And of course, we had freeze first. And just looked great in camp. So he is behind him. And then he started to come on a little bit, but Farad passed him. And at the end of the three years, we had to make a financial decision. So we actually got a third and a fifth for Keith. And I can't tell you that the team I advised him to go to had a great quarterback.

And I can't tell you who it is out of confidence. But he had to prove himself if he went to New Orleans, which was a huge mistake. Okay? It was a huge mistake for him. But the other team, I couldn't believe the other team offered a third to five for a guy. So they still believed in them. But it, you know, it didn't work out. Unfortunately, it gets a career-ending injury into Orleans. How tough were those years? You know, 93 until, you know, 99, they won the division, 10 and 6, won the division, went back to the postseason, Snyder's first year as an owner. But how How tough after being a contender virtually every single year you were there, with maybe the exception of like 1980, in 81 when you started 0 and 5?

How tough were those years? Oh, they were tough, but we knew they were going to be tough. But it still made it tough. The fans didn't understand what was happening. The players didn't understand what's happening. Today, if somebody said, hey, here's our cap, and we've got a gut the team, people understand that. they didn't understand that back then. So you had to live through it.

But it was tough. And I made some decisions that weren't good. Eventually, we got it straightened out and got good at the end. But it was tough. But Mr. Cook and John Cook stuck with us. And not many people would have probably. In today's NFL, I certainly would have. Just a couple more.

You've been so generous with your time. Is the Ricky Williams trade? Is the trade that you made with New Orleans, which has been titled the Ricky Williams trade. Right. Is that one of the great trades in the history of the league and just tell me how that came about and what you thought of it at the time and in hindsight?

Dixon comes out of the press conference at the end of the league meeting and says, I'll trade my whole draft to get Ricky Williams. I was on the phone in the next state of Billy Coherrick, the general manager. And we kept in contact all spring. and we get down to the draft and it's D-Day. And what I had told them was, see, they didn't have a two, okay? I think they didn't have a two was.

So I said, well, you don't have a two, okay? I got to have a first and a third to replace the two, a future first and a third replace the two. And they said, okay. So, anyway, we get to the morning of the draft and we kind of have the thing, you know, we've made all the calls. I started making calls to get back up.

The Bears said that they would be willing to go back and we could get the seven. So I still didn't know what Indy was going to do. I had no idea what St. Louis was going to do. So as soon as Ricky Williams is available, the Walens pulls the trigger. I call Chicago, and they put the screws to us to them. Because they asked for another third round rat choice.

So I'm sitting there. Put them on hold, and you've got to think about this. are we going to blow the whole trade on an extra third when we got plenty of thirds now and we decided no they're unethical but when I can't lose the trade now I'll give you a backdrop to it John Cook was running a team that the team was up for sale

we didn't know if we had a job from one day to another and John didn't know if he was going to be there for one day and other I called John up I said okay here's a deal the best thing to win right now is sit there and take Champ Bailey okay he's the best player in the draft he says, for the future of the franchise, you take the picks. He says, do what's best for the franchise, not what's best for today.

Now, there's a guy who didn't even know he's going to be there in the future, and he wasn't. So that was the final move to make the trade. And we traded back up and got champ, and then we made another trade to get John Jansen in the second round. Yeah, it was a first, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, because they didn't have the second in 99. and then it was the 2001 and the 2003 rounder, and that 2001st ended up being the second overall, which was used to take LeVar, and then with their own pick, it was Samuels.

So that also, Charlie, followed the trade for Brad Johnson. It was a couple of months after that trade. So you've told me this before, but just for the purposes of clarification, one of the first things that Snyder wanted to do was undo that trade, correct? Well, yes and no. Okay, now I think about it. We make the trade. Okay, first of all, Milstein tried to fire me, and the league said you can't fire me. You don't own the team. Okay? They were furious about the Brad Johnson trade, though. They were. And I didn't care. What had happened was Trent Green had a good year, but we couldn't sign anybody because the team was owned. The team was in limbo. Right.

Okay. And so we tried to Trent went to free agency, but I had the Braille Johnson trade agreed to, okay, or in principle it was agreed to, okay? And we decided to go with that. If we had a normal ownership situation, we probably would have kept Trent. Because you had a good year, 25 touchdown. Yeah. We didn't, but we kind of lost out of a lot of things because of the sale of the team and the ownership being up in the air.

So, yes, they were the furious that we made the trade. They tried to fire me, and they couldn't. Okay, well, that's what I remember from that. They didn't want the trade made. It turned out Brad Johnson was the reason that the team ended up going to the playoffs and winning the first division since 91 that year. He had a great year. Yeah.

So just, I guess, you know, the post-99 season and, you know, heading into, you know, the future when, when Norv gets fired during the 2000 season at the end, I mean, just, when did you know that for us, it wasn't going to be the same anymore with this new owner? Right in the beginning, I'll give the guy credit, a lot better at the end. and he was in the beginning, and you can say he wasn't, but I knew the beginning. He was a typical rookie owner that he didn't really know how things operated, and he was feeling his way. And the other thing rookie owners do is they listen to too many people, because they don't know better.

Yeah. Okay. And, you know, we just didn't agree on things, and he was very fair when I left. And a year later, when I was in Houston, he says, I made a mistake I should have kept. You're the only guy who told me the truth. So anyway, that's in the end of there now. But you can see there's a lot of rookie owners that learn as they go. And he was one of them.

And I had seen it in the league before with other owners. So that's kind of my experience with them at that point in time. So last one before we go. Give me the proudest moment in terms of acquiring a player in your professional career as a general manager here in Washington or in Houston. Kevin, this wasn't a player. Okay? It was a Hall of Famer, my wife. She worked at the team.

Now, wait a minute. Now, wait a man, she's somebody too. She worked at the team in a 1971, George Allen hired her, who was the first woman ever hired by the team. in an administrative position. She worked in finance in 1971. Wow. Okay. When she retired, okay, in the June of 83, okay, she was one of the highest

of not the highest ranking woman in the league, and she was off of the controller's job and turned it down. So, and she has some good reasons for it, okay, which will stay as private, but she was that qualified. So that's by far the best pick I ever made. Okay. I didn't know that your wife was that prominent as a female, you know, front office person in an NFL organization.

She really was like in finance. She was in finance. She was in finance. She was offered a number one job when the fellow passed away, and then George was let go and decided to turn it down. And then she had a share of reasons. It was good. but she worked closely with Jack Can't Cook and worked closely with Everett-Better-Wyams, too.

That wasn't the answer I was expecting, but that's a really good answer. And we'll end on that. Always fun to talk, and I'm glad it went this way. And you weren't that tough, not as Glenn suggested that you were. Thanks, Charlie. I appreciate it as always. You didn't ask me any questions what player were cutting next. We'll do this again soon and maybe during training camp.

I appreciate it as always. Okay. All right, see you, Kevin. 11 years, the general manager of the Washington Redskins, Charlie Casserly, everybody, finding out a little bit more about how Charlie kind of got into the NFL and it was a pretty wild story when he came. here with essentially no money and a mattress to take an unpaid internship to work for George Allen.

All right. Back tomorrow with Tommy.