The Kevin Sheehan Show - Should WFT Swing Big For A QB?

Episode Date: January 21, 2021

Kevin and Thom today talking about the Washington front office plan that may include both Marty Hurney and Martin Mayhew. Then, a conversation/debate about whether or not 2021 is THE offseason for Washington to swing big for a quarterback. Also, is Phillip Rivers the greatest QB never to have played in a Super Bowl? Some Red Stripe talk too.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. One more time, the Redskin defense. Everyone tries to work away from Daryl Green. Daryl Green takes their best receiver, so they try and go to work on Martin Mayhew.

You can do it once. They got him the first time on that out now, but you're not going to get him on that kind of pattern. He is going to get his share. Tommy, that was the 1991 Washington Dallas game at RFK Stadium. When the skins came in 11-0, the Cowboys were in their first, you know, legitimate competitive season with Jimmy Johnson. And Martin Mayhew started off the game with that interception return that gave Washington a 7-0 lead.

I'm going to tell you a little bit more about that game. Many of you remember that game. here in a moment. But Martin Mayhew is in the mix. I did a podcast yesterday. I did a short podcast because I figured people were, for the most part, consuming the inauguration day festivities by television and that, you know, they'd want something short. So I did a little bit on herney yesterday. And then, of course, right when I was done, the Mayhew news broke, which is typical, that Martin Mayhew is going to be potentially a part of the organization as well with Marty Herney. Now, the net of it is, I don't know how it's going to play out in terms of Herney's role or

Mayhew's role. Understand this, though. Washington is a front office, has been very understaffed compared to the rest of the league. You've had here since Ron Rivera was hired, Ron Rivera, and basically Kyle Smith and Rob Rogers. Many other. teams have more senior VPs. They've got a GM, they've got an assistant GM, they've got a vice president of player personnel. So they've been understaffed at the front. I have found it interesting, Tommy, that a lot of people have been underwhelmed and seem very disappointed by the Herney and even Mayhew mentions. Herney's overall record is a general manager, 107 and 121 with just four playoff seasons in 15 years for better than 500 seasons.

and 15 years. Mayhew's run as a GM in Detroit, which spanned 2008 to 2015, his record, or his team's records, 47 and 81, with just two seasons above 500. Both of those seasons were playoff seasons. He did draft Matt Stafford, just as a reminder to people. But Martin Mayhew was a really good player for the skins during some very productive years, including on the team that I think is the greatest Washington team of all time, the 91 team. And I think, you know, very debatably, one of the greatest teams, period, in the Super Bowl era that year, playing opposite Mayhew did of Daryl Green. But anyway, what are your thoughts about, you know, not just Herney, but Mayhew? Well, my, the reaction I've gotten from fans, they say,

seem like excited about Mayhew in a way. Look, I think that part of it's what's going on here is he's he's a he played for the football team and I think fans automatically think that's a good thing. Some I've gotten a different reaction. Really? Because my reaction has been all this is great an old Washington football player coming back to work for the team. They automatically assume that's going to somehow translate into success. Now, that is tempered, of course, with all the teams he could have run. He ran arguably the worst franchise in football in the past 60 years. And that's the Detroit Lions.

And that certainly goes against it. You've had better seasons in Washington. But still, they haven't done any thing and gone anywhere since 1957. Now, that's a long time to not have a championship. I know, you know, Detroit has had some years when they've been better than Washington football. But I remember, I mean, you know, this is the franchise that at one time went 0 and 16 under Joe Barry. And then Washington hired him to be the defensive coordinator. So I think fans automatically recoil against any connection with Detroit.

but mine it's been more positive than yours, I guess, the reaction I've gotten because he's an ex-Washington football player. You know, when they went 0-N-16, which was Mayhew's first year as a GM, you know who they ended that long losing streak against. The Jim Zorn Washington Redskins. When they beat Washington at Ford Field or the Silver Dome, whatever it was in 2009, they beat him 1914. And it was just like, you've got to be kidding.

Tommy, Tommy, that was the year. That was the year that followed the Rams game the week that I asked Zorn before the Detroit game, which had been winless. You know, they'd gone 0-16 the year before. They were 0-2 that year. And they had beaten the Rams 9 to 7, I think it was. And I asked him the question when we were sitting there doing the Jim Zorn show, you know, are you concerned?

about your, you know, your job status. And he looked at you like you had two heads. Oh my God, he was so pissed. Yes. He was so pissed. We won. What are you talking about? Yeah, we won the game.

And I remember, you know, during the break afterwards, I said, look, I'm sorry, but that's a question that around here with this owner has to be asked. You know, the win, you're one and and you're playing the Lions. And if you lose to the Lions, you know, this owner has been incredibly impulsive, you know, in the past. And, you know, he learned. He certainly learned by the end of that year, he was like a groupie on our show. He was a groupie. He was a sports fix groupie. And he wouldn't leave when he did our, when the spot. I know we've talked about it before, but it was so true, he would stick around. And then during breaks, he would ask us questions about what we were

talking about. And that was during the stretch where, you know, he was forced to comply. Compli. Was the word that clearly came up in his conversations with his lawyer in the language. And he knew he was gone because they brought in the bingo caller and that was it. And then, you know, he obviously, he never said this to me. He obviously learned that the question wasn't out of line. you know, after week two, that it was, they were counting down the days until they could get rid of them. But anyway, you know, back to Mayhew. I think, so I said this on the podcast yesterday, I'll say it to you. I think that for me, first of all, I'm not alarmed about any of this. Ron Rivera in the first year has built up enough trust with me that I don't mind him hiring people

that he's comfortable with. So that's why I don't mind Herney, despite his record, you know, overall record of being 14 games below 500 and, you know, everything else. It's a subpar resume. It really is. Even though I think a lot of people in Carolina give Herney credit for the three-year run, 2013, 14, and 15 when they won division titles and they went 15 and one and won the Super Bowl, they did that on the backs of his drafts primarily, even though he wasn't the acting GM at the time. Mayhew was a former player, but it's not like he's a former legend, you know, in the organization. It's not like you're, you know, you're bringing back Thysman or you're bringing back Sunny or you're bringing back Dexter,

you're bringing back Art Monk or Daryl Green to be the general manager. Now, Martin Mayhew was a Washington football player. He was a skin during that 91 season, and he's been a GM before. I think, you know, they're trying to complete a front office that looks like he's. an NFL office and Herney's familiar and Mayhew, I know, is very much a friend of Doug Williams. You know, and I don't know what kind of influence Doug Williams has in the organization anymore. Doug Williams, I think his title was always greater than his actual influence, which was a shame to a certain degree. But Doug Williams is still in the organization and, you know, Doug and Mayhew were

teammates, you know, in 1989 Mayhew's first year. But I think the bottom line, is that my reaction anyway, my feeling is that a lot of people have essentially said two things. One, can't they do better than two guys with, you know, well below 500 records? And I think there's also Tommy the concern that they're going to lose the next young, you know, McVe-Lafleur, Kyle Shanahan that's going to go on to greater heights somewhere else and that Kyle Smith is that. you know, so I think there's, you know, some concern that Smith wasn't even interviewed to be a part of this. My guess is, by the way, especially with the Mayhew edition, and the fact that they also interviewed Eric Stokes, who is already on the staff,

I don't think Kyle Smith is going to be with this organization, whether it's this week, next week, or two months from now. I think he'll end up in San Francisco or he'll end up in Los Angeles with Sean, both Sean and Kyle, like Kyle Smith, a lot. but I just don't really, I'm not worked up over it one way or the other. It's like, you know, the bottom line is get a quarterback and keep the owner out of it. If you can get a quarterback and you can keep the owner's hands off any football decisions, you're going to have a chance to be so much better off than you've been over the last two decades. So, you know, Marty Herney, Martin Mayhew, Jojo Wooden, you know, Ryan Cowdson, all these different names, most of you listening have no idea what these people are capable of or not capable of.

And I would also mention this, and I think I mentioned this yesterday, and I think Tommy you will agree with me on this. You know, if you think that like the real hot guy is going to pick Washington over another place, it still has a stigma, people. okay, the league still understands that as long as Snyder is the owner here, it's not a desirable landing spot. There are many better spots, regardless of the team's young talent, and even the head coach. So I just don't have a problem with any of this. I think Ron's, you know, earns some trust with me.

Again, making it very simple, get a damn quarterback and keep the owner out of it. Do those two things and we got a real shot. We got a real shot, whether it's two guys named Marty and Martin or two other guys. Ron's in charge. This is the Kansas City, Seattle, New England model. Okay, they're all reporting to Ron. And anyway, that's the way I feel. You know, here's, if you're a Washington football fan, here's what you've got to weigh,

because this is the limited information you have. You have the track records of both of these guys. which is not impressive. You have to weigh that against, like, what you have described, your trust in Ron Rivera. I mean, that's all you've got. Look, people, fans are excited about Kyle Smith for two reasons. One, he's A.J. Smith's son.

Second, a lot of media members have mentioned his name before. That's the only reason they even know about Kyle Smith. Right. They don't know anything else. I don't know how good he is. You know, so if, you know, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, a, if, if, a lot of people, I'm repeatedly, um, then fans will get excited about it. You know, they'll say, well, he must be pretty good.

He's in the paper or he's on the radio. People, people, people, I, I think, I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people in the fan base, um, do a lot of their own research, too. I mean, it's, it's, it has been for a while now. all of that information's out there. I mean, I have people sending me even before it's reported by anybody. Don't go get this guy. I mean, this is his record. This is, and they've gone through every single pick and free agent move. You know, by the way, that doesn't, that means something. I'm not saying that somebody's track record doesn't mean a lot. It does. I'm going to make a weird

comparison, and it's not apples to apples, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind here. Actually, that's disingenuous because I mentioned it to Ben standing on a phone call last night, but I haven't mentioned it on the show. It came to my mind last night as Ben and I were having a conversation about a couple of things. And I just said, you know, like in basketball, there are a million guys out there, Tommy, that are really good shooters. And most of those guys will never, ever see an NBA game or an NBA roster, but they're totally capable. If they had been the guy that got drafted or was an underdrafted free agent and it was on the right team with the right coach, with the right point guard or the right stars to be the John

Paxson or Steve Kerr or Tim Legler, you know, look, Kerr and Paxson were really good players, but there are guys that there are shooters out there that never got a shot at the NBA that were college players. And by the way, there were high school players that never got a shot at college that could have, all right, if it just was the right spot at the right time. And in personnel and in coaching and even in probably some other football positions on the field, maybe, you know, herney and Mayhew. together with Rivera is the right mix. Here's the one thing that I think Rivera's got a good sense of, which, by the way, his owner does not. And that is, what's the right fit for me?

You know, Jay Gruden could never get, you know, Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder to get the right fit for him because they didn't understand football. You know, they didn't really understand what was the right fit for him. Ron Rivera has the ability to create the right mix, the right dynamic. And it might be right for them. It might be better for Herney, and it might be better for Mayhew. Like, Mayhew may not have gotten another shot. There's only one guy that may have given him a shot.

And it's Rivera because they've worked together and they understand each other. And Rivera trusts Herney, and Herney trusts Revere. And they know what each other's looking for. And they did have some success together. You know, and Herney doesn't get credit for some of the success, the bigger successful years that Rivera had. Anyway, I'm just rambling here. I'm just not going to get upset about it.

I know what's crucial. I know the only way this franchise has a long run of success is if the owner keeps his hands out of it, and ultimately, even with a good man like Rivera, who's a good coach, in my opinion, they're going to have to find the quarterback answer. Do those two things, and it really doesn't matter which Marty or Martin they hire. I agree with that. I got to ask you, though, your analogy of the shooter at the right place at the right time, you're talking about you, aren't you? I knew you were going with that.

No, I'm not. I'm not. No, you know, no, I'm not. Tim Legler and I had this conversation. I remember having this conversation with Legler over the, it's in the last year. And I've said to him, you know, you could have been Paxon or Kerr. And he's like, you're 100% right. It's all right place, right time because there were a lot of us that could really shoot it.

That could have been the guy playing off Jordan and Pippin. That could have been the guy spotting up in the corner, knocking down threes off of the defense's focus on those two great players. And Tommy, it's so true. There are so many guys in the NBA that can really shoot it. But really, for every one of those guys, there are another thousand of those guys that could have been that guy. But they were just the guy. Your honor. Your honor.

Yeah. The witness, can I treat the witness as hostile witness? He's avoiding answering the question. No. Look, I've told you before, I played high school basketball. I became a much better basketball player after high school. and I did get D3 offers and could have played Division III college basketball, and I would have been very much sort of that kind of a player. By the way, before the three-pointer was even in college or right around the time that it came in.

But I was at Maryland, and Maryland was cheap, and it's what my parents could afford, and D3 wasn't scholarship. But I was one of the- Did you ever consider walking on, trying to walk on at Maryland? No, I wasn't. And no, no, I was nowhere near good enough. I had two friends of mine, really good friends of mine that I played with that were really close to making it as a walk-on. You know, Scott nearly made it as a walk-on for Lefty. You know, Scott 6-6-6-7, and Scott could really shoot it too.

But no, no, no, I was not at that level. I could have definitely been a D3 college basketball player, but not necessarily at a high school, Tommy. I was a late developer physically. I was 5'9 my junior year in high school and then 6'3 my senior year in high school. I basically grew like 5, 6 inches over the summer between my junior and senior year. I was like the kid, the last kid to get hair under my arms and, you know, I was the last kid to shave. I physically was a late developer. but by the time I got to my sophomore year in college, I was physically mature then.

And I was always a good basketball player, but I was physically mature enough to play at, you know, like a D3 level. But I, but I, it was too late then, you know, and there were a lot of reasons, family-related reasons that I couldn't, that I wouldn't have been able to do that. But anyway, my point back to the, you know, the fit is, You just never know. Like their records, look, they've got resumes and long-time resumes. So it probably does speak to some level of who they are. But again, I'm just going to trust in Rivera. And I'm going to trust that he can figure out the dynamic.

That's the other side of it. And look, like you said, I mean, Washington has a reputation that's not going to attract a lot of people. Plus, it's clear that at least the perception is, you know, if you take Snyder at it, equation. For the most part, Revere is in charge of the football decision. So any general manager whose next hot shot is not going to come to a place where the coach is the top decision maker. They want to be the top decision maker. Yeah, that's true too. I mean, one of the reasons in addition to it's still having a stigma as an organization, even though it's changing a little bit because people see the upside of the talent, et cetera. But as long as

Snyder's here. That's going to be an absolute no-no for several people. But to your point, if you can't come in and be the top guy, but you're actually going to be reporting to the Rivera coach-centric model, you know, the Pete Carroll, Bill Belichick, Andy Reid model, you know, that's not for everybody either. So let me also just make clear. I don't really have a sense of what it will be. You know, Chris Russell was on with me this morning. he's actually been talking about Mayhew, even with the Herney stuff for a while. And he said it's very possible that Mayhew gets the GM title and Herney gets some sort of other title. Or it's, you know, possible that Herney.

I mean, you know, Russell might give you 15 different possibilities and then claim, hey, I got it right. No, I'm kidding. But he did throw out that as a possibility. No, you're not kidding. He did throw that out as a possibility. You weren't kidding at all. I don't know how it will work, but anyway, I'm just not going to get, guys, there's so much more to get worked up over. Like, you have Rivera right now as the top guy in the organization. He's proven after a year that it's at least worth giving him another year as, you know, to continue to make this an improved situation.

And the two keys are Snyder stays out of it and you find a quarterback. And speaking of that quarterback, I want to get to that next because I spoke briefly about a quote in the Jeremy Fowler story on Deshaun Watson yesterday. And then I put out a poll this morning on Twitter that I want to share with you. But before we break for our first break of the show, a lot of you enjoy when we find some of these old, you know, Pat Summerall, John Matt. sound clips. You know, in watching the Mayhew interception from that game, because I remembered that Mayhew had a big year in 91. It was a good year.

He ended up having 21 career interceptions, 13 of which were Washington interceptions. He was on the 89 team, 90 team, and 91 team and 92 team here. Four years here, four years in Tampa. So he was on three teams that went to the postseason. The 89 team, by the way, was a 10. and six team that didn't go to the postseason. But Mayhew was a good corner in the NFL. He really was, and he had the benefit of playing opposite Daryl Green. But in watching some of this game last night, Tommy, on YouTube, in finding the Mayhew pick six against the Cowboys, I also found the introduction

to this game. Listen to Summerall and Madden talk about, remember they were 11 and O going into this game, Washington was. They were undefeated. They were the best team in football. They were coming off back-to-back, amazingly impressive wins over the Falcons at RFK. They beat the Falcons in the rain 56 to 17, and that's the game where Mark Rippin set the franchise record with six touchdown passes in a game. Then they had gone to Pittsburgh and 1-41-14. They were 11-0 coming home against the Cowboys. The 72 Dolphins were sweating it out. and this was an upstart. This was Johnson's first good team.

The Cowboys were six and five, and they were battling for a playoff spot. And just listen to the way Summerall and Madden sort of bring you into RFK for the opener. Nothing quite like at RFK Stadium in Washington. It's especially different and especially exciting when the Dallas Cowboys come to town to play the Washington Redskins. I'm Pat Somerol here with. John Madden and all the talk in this town and pretty much around the country is the redskins and their undefeated record. Can they continue, I guess, is the big question.

And I think they can, and I think a big reason is this guy right here, Joe Gibbs. He always has a motivator. He always gives them a reason they have to win. Today they have to win to clinch a division. He remembers what it is. He says we have to stop Emmett Smith. We can't let Troy Aikman beat us. But if we win today, we can clinch our division.

That guy standing next to him, Mark Rippin, on a hot streak as the Cowboys will kick off to the Redskins. No surprise that RFK has sold out it has been for a long, long time. And this rivalry is something special to both teams. I love hearing that stuff. You know, and I always yearned for the day that, like, this weekend, Washington can be, you know, in the Fox, one of the two big championship games with the hype that goes with it. A lot of you always love hearing the Summerall stuff in particular with Madden before a big game against the Cowboys or the Giants or the Eagles or the Niners or whatever.

But there was one more thing that I found from this game, Tommy, because this is a game that's a famous game because this, Washington lost this game. It was their first loss of the 91 season. they lost to the Cowboys 24-21, so the perfect season ended. And it really ended because of one play more than any other. At the end of the first half, in a 7-7 game, the only seven points Washington had was that Mayhew Interception return that we played coming in. But at the end of the half, with the Cowboys, you know,

potentially being able to kick a field goal at the Skins 35-yard line, you'll hear the call of the Hail Mary pass to Alvin Harper. Some are all in Madden, obviously, on the call. And this was really the biggest play in the game. And for all intents and purposes, this is the play that maybe prevented Washington from going not just 16 and 0, but 19 in O. Here it is. And here, this is the third time in the first half that the Cowboys are going for it on fourth down. Their choice is to kick a field goal.

It would have been a 51-yard field goal. I think they want to get a first down and then maybe go for the field goal. They're out of timeouts. There is Aitman back to throw it. Going to take a heel, Mary shot. Touchdown. Alvin Harper out of the pack. That was that.

Cowboys went on to win the game 24-21. You know, Tommy, in that game, and I had forgotten this, Troy Aitman got hurt in that game for the Cowboys. Steve Berline came in, finished up the game, finished up the season for them. They finished 11 and 5. Burline as the starter for Akeman, won the final. four games. They went into the postseason, beat the bears and the wild card round, and then lost to

the Lions who eventually played the skins in the NFC title game. Washington went on to win their final four games, the next three games, and then basically didn't play their starters for most of the final game of the year against the Eagles. But if they had beaten the Cowboys and they were going for 16 and O against the Eagles, I think they would have played their starters and won that game. And it may have been, you know, the, the, the dolphins, the 72 dolphins equivalent plus two games. I really believe without that Hail Mary to Alvin Harper, Washington probably goes 16 and 0 and then 19 and 0. You're probably right. Doesn't it always, now, do you have the impression, this may be wishful thinking on, you know, just from listening to it, but don't you

always get the impression that Madden loved RFK? Oh, my God. Madden. Madden, loved RFK. Some are all loved RFK. You know, I'll play this in a future podcast, but the final game at RFK, there's a tribute paid to RFK by Fox, who was doing the game,

final game, which was December of 96. It was a very disappointing game because I was at that game. I was, too, as a fan, you were there as a media member. Washington had lost to Arizona, the previous week, which knocked him out of the postseason. Because that game was supposed to be a

game for the division title. The last game at RFK, and it wouldn't have been the last game at RFK because Washington would have hosted a playoff game. But it was December 22nd, 1996. Washington, again, that particular year, that was the last year at RFK, and they had lost, you know, I think it was Kevin Butler at the gun, the week-beast. in Arizona, which was a crushing defeat because Arizona wasn't even that good. And Washington blew a chance to play for the division against the Cowboys in their final regular season game at RFK. So that game was meaningless, but it was electric that day in that stadium.

It was so memorable for me. I was not one of the people that brought tools to cut out my chair and my seat and bring it home with me. and I didn't run out onto the field and dig up some dirt to take with me. I know some people that did, but God was that an electric atmosphere at RFK. And the Madden Sumerall tribute to RFK was fantastic. I'll find it and play it one day. They loved.

I mean, it was the place. It had more for those guys as a team, Madden and Summerall, and they became a team together in 81. after Brookshire and Summerall were the team in the 70s, they probably called more big-time games at RFK than any other stadium. It would be RFK, it would be Soldier Field, it would be Candlestick Park, and it would be Texas Stadium, you know, and maybe the Meadowlands. That was the list.

Didn't Madden work with Gibbs at one point in their careers? They did, and they were all good friends. You know, Madden and John Robinson were childhood friends. friends, and Robinson, Gibbs, and Madden were all very friendly and it worked together. Yeah. Yeah. So you always had that. But anyway, that 91 team, to me, and I've debated this with Doc and Thaisman and Rigo and Jacoby and even B. Mitch. B. Mitch agrees with me because he was on the 91 team. That's the greatest Redskin team of all time for me. And I'll be honest with you. I don't even think it's close.

They were the best... But the competition is, ironically, the 83 team that lost the Super Bowl. That's true, because that was the best offensive team that they had, but the best combined team was 91. I know that. Yeah. The 83 team that lost the Raiders... When people are to the next best, they'll tell you the 83 team.

There's no doubt that Thysman believes that that 83 team was the best team he played on. And it was offensively. No doubt. The problem was defensively, it had this incredible plus 42 turnover margin, which was incredible and is still an NFL record, I'm pretty sure. But they gave up so many points and yards during that year. Remember, their two losses during the regular season were losses to the Cowboys, 31 to 30 and to the Packers on Monday Night Football 48 to 47. Oh, yeah. You know, they gave up 38 in the Super Bowl to the Raiders. They just, they really weren't a good defense.

They were a playmaking defense, and they made a lot of plays, and they created a lot of turnovers, which was awesome. But they were also vulnerable to giving up big points and big yards. Offensively, though, they set the scoring mark that year for the time, and it was such a good team offensively, such a good team. All right, we've got other topics to get to, and we will do so right after this word from one of our sponsors. So Tommy yesterday, I mentioned. this story that Jeremy Fowler wrote about the Deshawn Watson situation on ESPN.com.

It was a really thorough story. I actually had them on the radio show, so if you missed that this morning, you can go to radio.com and download the Team 980 app and listen to it. Or download the radio.com app and listen to it on the Team 980. He was really good. We talked a lot about the quarterback situation just around the NFL. But as part of this story, he had potential. destinations for Deshawn Watson, the Jets and the Dolphins would be the favorites, but the other three

teams were Carolina, Chicago, and Washington. And he had a quote from an NFC executive that read as follows, quote, regarding Washington. I think they will be involved in the QB sweepstakes in a big way. They know they are close, close quote, of course, channeling their inner Bruce Allen with the know they are close. Well, they're clearly closer than they were with Bruce Allen. But the fact, I asked Fowler this morning, do you really think they're going to be involved in going after a big time quarterback? And he said, I do. That's what I'm hearing. But then you start to consider, and we started to go through all of the possibilities. I go to Sean Watson and he said, well, the Jets and the Dolphins would be the favorite. But he agrees with me that Watson is not going to be

made available. That ultimately they'll figure it out in Houston with Nick Casario as the GM, and they'll make it right. You just don't trade to Sean Watson's. It just doesn't happen. And he agrees with me that it won't happen. So we started to go down like the list of quarterbacks. And I said, well, what about Matt Stafford? And he said, Matt Stafford's a possibility, but I really see him in Indy now with Philip Rivers retiring. Okay. What about Matt Ryan? Well, Matt Ryan's got a huge cap number for Atlanta, and it's going to be hard to trade him. Okay, well, what about James Winston? Well, there's a lot of talk that James and Sean Payton really hit it off.

But, you know, the Saints have a – anyway, you start going down the list of the quarterbacks, and then the teams that need quarterbacks. Like he said to me, well, Jared Gough might be available. And I said, I don't want Jared Gough. I mean, no one wants Jared Gough. And you start going down the list of teams that are going to – going to be in the market for a quarterback. It may be the most we've seen in recent years. Ross Tucker, who was also a guest on the radio show, put out a list. He's in its 17 teams, New Orleans,

Pittsburgh, Indy, Rams, Dolphins, Chicago, New England, Washington, Dallas, with a question mark, obviously, because I think the, you know, most people believe they're going to re-sign Dak Prescott. San Francisco, Carolina, Denver, Detroit, Philly, Houston, the Jets, and Jacksonville. Now, Jacksonville is going to probably draft Trevor Lawrence. There's just so many teams out there that are all, you know, looking for a quarterback. So, you know, Matt Stafford, I would think Indy now makes a lot of sense if Detroit wants to trade him. If Deshawn Watson were actually available, you would trade him probably to the team with the most draft capital. That's the Jets or the Dolphins, not Washington.

So after, you know, circling around the whole thing, I said, you said they're going to be in the QB sweepstakes. Well, what does that mean? And he came to Sam Darnold. He said, Darnold could be a really good bet, you know, with the Jets sitting there in a position to either trade for Dishon Watson or to draft Justin Fields, Darnold might be available.

You know, Darnold's a possibility because he's young. He's also a guy that's mobile. And, you know, I think Darnold's pretty good. Like, I think he's got some pretty good talent. Now, what would you give up? what would you give up for Darnold? I would want Stafford before Darnold, and I'd want Watson before all of them, and I'd be willing to trade everything to get Watson. But I just don't think he's going to be available. But anyway, I put out a poll this morning, and I want you to

respond to all this, but I just want to share with you the poll results. I just said, do you want Washington to go get their franchise quarterback this off season? Yes or no? You want them to make a big move. But you know, do you want them to be part of the quarterback's sweepstakes? 2012 they were obviously with the trade up to get RG3, 2018, to a lesser degree to trade for Alex Smith. In 2019, they drafted Dwayne Haskins. And, you know, with like 1,500 votes in, it's 68% yes, 31.9% no. I want them to be.

I want them to go after it. It's kind of a flawed poll because the 68%, they're all thinking about Deshaun Watson. They're all thinking about him. And that's not going to happen. Well, maybe I'll consult you before I put out Twitter polls in the future. Well, look, am I wrong? I think you're actually right. You know, I put in parentheses, do you know, do you want Washington football to try again, like 2012, 2018, 2019 to, you know, get their franchise quarterback this offseason.

or no. But I think, you know, in the timing of it is the Deshawn Watson conversation. Yeah, I mean, that's what gets everybody excited, understandably so. If it's me, the only quarterback that you talked about that I'm interested in, obviously besides

Deshawn Watson, is Matt Stafford. Yeah. If I have to settle for less than Matt Stafford, then I'll keep what I got, and I'll trust Martin Mayhew and Marty Herney and Ronny and Ron Rivera to find in the third or fourth or fifth round my next quarterback.

And I'll live with Kyle Allen and I'll live with Taylor Heineke going into next year for competition. Sam Darnold, I'm not trading a lot to get Sam Darnold. I mean, I just as soon go with Kyle Allen. Yeah, I've thought a lot about this in recent days. And I think that the bottom line for me is the histories there where, of course, you can have a really big season without an elite quarterback, without a franchise quarterback. We've seen, you know, big seasons. We haven't seen Super Bowl winners unless you want to count Peyton Manning's win with Denver.

But the truth is, you know, Denver didn't make the playoffs the following year with that same defense and without Peyton Manning. So Peyton Manning was worth something that year. But the bottom line is with a great quarterback, you're in the hunt to make the playoffs every year. You are. Now, Houston this year was really dysfunctional. So if it's not every year, it's nine out of ten years. If you've got Aaron Rogers or you've got Tom Brady or you've got Peyton Manning or if you've got Russell Wilson or if you've got Patrick Mahomes and I think Josh Allen's about to enter that category. So you have a sustained success franchise setting up if you have one of those guys.

If you don't, you're not going to have sustained success. You can do what Jacksonville did a couple of years ago. You can make the AFC title game. You can do what San Francisco did after the 2019 season with a great defense and a phenomenal running game but with Jimmy Garoppolo and get to a Super Bowl. you can have those occasional years. But with the great quarterback, 90% of the time, you're going to be in the playoffs. You're going to be a nine-win team plus and in the playoffs.

That's what Aaron Rogers is produced. That's essentially what Russell Wilson is. That's what Mahomes is going to produce. That's what you're going to get. And if you think Deshaun Watson's that guy, and I think he is, and again, you can say, well, he was 4 and 12 this year. I understand that. It was a very dysfunctional year for that franchise. And by the way, I just said nine out of ten years.

So there's going to be one that you're not. But I'm going for the quarterback. I'm going to get the quarterback, period. If I have to give up a shitload to get Deshawn Watson, I'm going to do it. I'm not going to sit there and hope every year that Kyle Allen or Kyle Trell – Look, the preferred way, to your point, Tommy. the preferred way is to draft that guy. And so I'm for that.

Like if they think Kyle Trask or Mack Jones at 19 overall is the next elite quarterback, let's do it. I'm not, and by the way, Dwayne Haskins and RG3, their last two first rounders, it's not going to dissuade me from trying again if I think the right guy exists there. But I need to go get that guy. I agree with you. But the only guy who fits that bill is to show. Sean Watson. Matt Stafford used to be that guy, but you're getting him on the downside,

maybe the early downside, but you're still getting him on the downside. You're certainly not going to give as much to get Matt Stafford as you would. No, Matt Stafford's a first rounder. Sean Watson's three first rounders, a second rounder, and a big time player. By the way, that's the list to me. That's the list. It's the Sean Watson. Matt Stafford, if those guys aren't available, then I'll stand pat. Yeah, and I'll trust Ron and Scott and Marty and Martin and Eric and anybody else if they think they've found their answer in the draft. The good news about finding somebody in the draft is you don't have to give up anything

and they're cheap for four years. and you can, you know, you can see. You can roll the dice on that. What's the point of having personnel people if they can't tell you? Yeah, that guy, he may be a third round, but you give him two years and he can be the next, I don't know, Deshaun Watson. Yeah, the problem is there have been many good personnel people, and the problem is that it's one out of 20, you know, one out of 50, whatever it is, before you, you know.

That's the system. The odds are even good personnel people aren't going to find the elite quarterback. What are your options if you don't trust your personnel people? No, I understand that. I'm just saying more likely than not, they won't find him that way. Right. You know, what you do know is if Deshawn Watson's legitimately available, I think you should be as aggressive as possible to try to do it.

Now, this is the one thing that Snyder is good at. Yeah. Right? Yeah, but not evaluating the player. No, but I mean, going after a Deshaun Watson, he's not the kind of guy who likes to get beat in that kind of game. Yeah, I just don't want him involved. First of all, it's not a contract that's required anymore. You're assuming the contract, so you don't have to worry about that.

It's not a money play, and that's always what he's been best at. You know, we're going to pay you more than anybody else will. Okay. And Deshawn Watson is about draft capital because you're assuming the contract. it's not a free agent signing. It's going to be, look, it's going to be so interesting the next couple of months on the whole quarterback front. There's so many answers for so many teams. And, you know, if Washington just takes the slow and steady, we're not going to mortgage the future,

even if it's a lock guy that's elite, which I would disagree with, and we're going to go with Kyle, we're going to go with Kyle Allen, and we're going to go with Taylor Heineke, and we're going to draft the guy in the third round and we're going to invest in our middle linebacker and corner and the whole thing. And we're going to try to improve from a seven-win team to a 10-win team and be in the playoffs for a second straight year. And then maybe in 2022, you know, if we don't have the right quarterback, we'll make the move then. Okay, but just understand, I've said this twice in the last two days, I think, the last two podcasts. With Deshaun Watson on this team or with Matt Stafford on this team,

you are going to be perceived as an NFC championship contender. Without them, you're going to be a co-favorit with the Cowboys to win the perceived worst division in the NFL. I think that's a fair assessment. And your contention that you have to get the quarterback is the right contention. And pointing to Jacksonville as a perfect example when they had Blake Bortles as their quarterback,

they probably missed an opportunity to be a championship team. There's no doubt about it. But not having a quarterback, yes. I mean, I've gone through, you know, just because this year it's Brady Rogers, Josh Allen Mahomes, top three MVP candidates in the greatest of all time. It's not that way every year. But the difference is the Packers are in the hunt every year. The bills now are going to be in the hunt every year.

The chiefs are going to be in the hunt every year. The Bucks, obviously, it's a unique situation with Brady at the end of his career, end of his career going for it. What is much less the case, but not impossible, is for the Titans to hit an inside straight and get to the AFC title game like they did last year. Or the 49ers to get to the Super Bowl without a really good quarterback. In 2018, Jared Goff got to the Super Bowl, you know? And in 2017, Bortles did, Foles did, and Keenham did.

to the final four. But, you know, it doesn't guarantee you're back at it like it does if you have Rogers, Wilson, Mahomes, or I think Josh Allen, and maybe Deshawn Watson. Anyway, I'm going to get you on the phone because your internet is breaking up a little bit. So we're going to get to a break. I want to come back and I want to talk about Philip Rivers a little bit and we'll get Tommy's championship game predictions when we return right after this word from one of our sponsors. All right, a couple of things to get to Tommy's championship picks. I think Mahomes is going to play Sunday. Fowler from ESPN was on with me. He thinks he's going to play. There's actually a lot of interesting theories about what the injury actually was, and many people, including that

Dr. David Chow guy, you know, who weighs in on all the injuries, doesn't think it was a concussion. But anyway, we'll get to that here momentarily. I mentioned yesterday, and a lot of people that have listened to the podcast or the radio show know that I've always been a big Philip Rivers fan. There are a couple of you that have been very much annoyed by my infatuation of Philip Rivers. I've just always enjoyed him. You know, Tommy, I mentioned this yesterday, but when he was at NC State, those were some of Ralph Regions' really good years at Maryland, and Maryland and NC State had some big games in the ACC. It's not Ohio State, Michigan, I understand. But Maryland went down there.

Scott McBrion on Philip Rivers' senior day. And back then, he was just as brash as he was in the NFL. And so to beat Philip Rivers on his senior day was just such a big win. But I remember just thinking all the while, God, he's going to be a good NFL quarterback. And he was. He had a phenomenal 17-year career. And he's, you know, ranks fifth on the all-time yardage list, fifth on the all-time touchdown list.

But he never got. to never got to a Super Bowl. And I'll ask you first, you know, I believe that he'll be a Hall of Famer. I said yesterday I think he's a lock first ballot, but Ross Tucker this morning reminded me that he'll be in the same class with Drew Breeze. You know, we know that now. And so that makes it tough. And who knows, could be in the same class with Ben Rafflesberger.

We'll see what happens with Ben here. And both of those guys are going in before Philip Rivers. totally understand that. And he didn't agree that he was a first ballot Hall of Famer anyway. Whatever. I think he's a Hall of Famer, whether it's the first ballot second or third or whatever. I think he's going to be a Hall of Fame quarterback. Do you agree or not?

Yes, I do. I don't know. Like you said, I don't particularly care about the first ballot stuff. He will be a Hall of Famer. I think so too. I want to get to the question of where he ranks on the list of the quarterbacks that never made a superiors. Bowl. Marino's always considered to be the greatest quarterback that didn't win a Super Bowl. You know, Jim Kelly's on that list. Marino's typically the guy, and I'm talking about in the

Super Bowl era. You know, I think Sonny, you know, even though he played in the Super Bowl era, really his best years were, you know, almost pre-super Bowl era or right at the beginning of it, and he was on bad teams. But Sunny's often considered on the short list of the greatest quarterbacks never to play in the Super Bowl. I did want to mention. There's two different lists now. Two different lists. One is to play in the Super Bowl, one is to win the Super Bowl. That's right.

And I'm talking about... Gold Rivers never even got a chance to play in the Super Bowl. That's what I'm saying. That's the list I want to talk about, the list of the greatest quarterbacks never to play in the Super Bowl. You know, Warren Moon didn't play in a Super Bowl. He's one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. Yes, I understand there are two different lists, and that's what I want to talk about.

But I wanted to just mention this real quickly because the knock on Philip Rivers, obviously, is he did not have postseason success. You know, he didn't get to a Super Bowl. He got to one AFC championship game and he had to play it on a torn ACL. You know, he also had some incredibly, some real bad luck with some of the Marty teams in particular. You know, that 2006, his very first playoff game was the game against the Patriots in San Diego. where the game was locked up on a Marlon McCree interception, and instead of just going down, he tried to make a run back, and he fumbled it back to the Patriots on the interception, and Brady went down and won the game, you know, tied it,

and then they won it. That was unfortunate. It certainly wasn't Rivers' fault that they didn't advance to the AFC championship game, where, by the way, and I was reminded of this by somebody on Twitter, and I went back and looked this up, and it's true. You know, he had very good success against Peyton Manning and the Colts, including two wins against the Colts in the postseason.

They beat Indianapolis in 2008, the year that they got to the AFC title game, when Indianapolis was the one seed, and they beat him at Indy, 2824. He also beat him in a wild card round game in San Diego. One of the reasons, and I went back and looked at this, and this was somebody who tweeted me, this. Ron Rivera was the D.C. for those teams, for some of those teams in San Diego. That's right. And he said Ron Rivera was very much given credit back then. I didn't know this, okay? Very much was given a ton of credit in his years in San Diego for really understanding how

to defend Peyton Manning. That for whatever reason, he was the de-coordinator for, for a couple of those years and a couple of those wins, and he was the linebackers coach, but he was a big part of understanding how to defend Peyton Manning. I don't know what his record was as Carolina's coach against Peyton Manning. But anyway, that's just as an aside. The point is that Rivers beat Peyton Manning in some playoff games head-to-head. I think he was 2-0 against Peyton Manning in the post-season.

and that year, the first playoff game was terrible luck. The game where they lost with Norff Turner to the Jets at home was really unfortunate because I think there was a missed field goal that would have forced overtime. Rivers was pretty good in that game. Anyway, to the conversation, you agree he's a Hall of Famer, I agree he's a Hall of Famer. Marino, to me, he's the greatest quarterback, never to win the Super Bowl. You can put Sonny on that, you can put Tarkington on that list, Jim Kelly on that list. Who else?

In terms of guys that got to the big game, that would be the short list, right? Marino and Kelly won two of the guys that got to the Supertarkington. Tarkington. Tarkington didn't win it. Tarkington. I would rank Tarkington ahead of Jim Kelly on the list of great quarterbacks. He got, did he get three chances with Minnesota, right?

Because he wasn't on the Joe Cap team. Minnesota lost four Super Bowls, but Cap lost the first one. Tarkington lost the next three, right? Yeah, but as generally, if you were ranking quarterbacks, period, Tarkenton's ahead of Jim Kelly. Okay. That's all. I can go with that.

So Marino, Tarkington, Kelly, as the three greatest never to get to the Super Bowl, but not win it. To me, Marino is easy number one ahead of Tarkington and Kelly. You agree with that, right? Yeah. Okay. So now let's talk about the list of quarterbacks that never got to the Super Bowl. Rivers might be number one on that list. Unless you...

I think more moon's number one. Okay. I would say it's either moon or river. No, I would say to you there's another one in the mix, and ironically, it's from the same franchise. And that's Dan Fouts. Yes, but Rivers, I think, is a better quarterback than Fouts. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah.

I don't think to. Look, Fouts had unbelievable teams, Tommy. Unbelievable teams. Rivers wasn't on anywhere near the teams that Fouts was on. with the weapons Fouts had. Nowhere near. Look, Fouts is definitely in the conversation. I would not have him ahead of rivers.

I would have, I think you can make the case for Warren Moon to be ahead of rivers, definitely of the quarterbacks that never made it to the Super Bowl. But I've got rivers ahead of Fouts. Fouts had unbelievable. Those teams that Fouts had, they should have gone to the Super Bowl. Some of those teams should have won the Super Bowl. I know he lost two AFC title games, one of them in minus 59 wind chill in Cincinnati. You know, the week after beating the Dolphins in that famous game in the Orange Bowl,

you know, the 41-38 overtime game. And he also lost to the Raiders in San Diego in an AFC title game. The year that the Raiders ended up beating the Eagles in the Super Bowl is a wildcard team. But I think Rivers was a better quarterback than Fouts. Fouts would be on that list. though, you're right. Fouts would be on that list. I started to make a list and I actually forgot Fouts on the list, but you're right. Fouts would be right there at three behind Moon and Rivers. Let me tell you some of the other people I put on the list. I put Randall Cunningham on the list.

Yes. I think Randall Cunningham is one of the greatest football, offensive football players I've ever seen in my lifetime. I think he is. I think he was so, good at times and had so many good years, including, by the way, the 98 Minnesota team that he played on with Randy Moss, where Gary Anderson missed the chip shot field goal that cost Minnesota a trip to the Super Bowl. Atlanta ended up going to the Super Bowl. And, you know, obviously he, you know, with Buddy, they never got to a championship game, but they were in the playoffs a ton. I thought of him. I thought of, and I hate to do this. because it's just going to give, you know, Clay and some of the cowboy guys out there fodder. But Tony Romo's on a top 10 list of quarterbacks that never made the Super Bowl. If you just look at his numbers, he is.

You're right. I think you're right. Buffalo. I mean, everyone talks about Jim Kelly with Buffalo. Before Jim Kelly, Joe Ferguson was a very good quarterback. For the Buffalo bill, wasn't to the playoffs multiple times. O.J. Simpson was the, he had O.J. Joe Ferguson?

Yeah, he had O.J. The electric company. No, no, no. After that, I look, I remember Buffalo and the Jets playing in the playoffs when Joe Ferguson was the quarterback, and OJ was long gone. No, you're right. From the football field. Yeah, but the teams that Buffalo went and played ball, they played the, they played the Steelers one year in the postseason. They made some postseason games with OJ, didn't they? I remember them playing the Chargers with, like, Joe Cribs. And so that would have been a Ferguson team, I think.

Bert Jones? I'm sorry? Bert Jones. Bert Jones never quarterback to championship team. By the way, of course, Sunny was a given in this conversation, just so everybody knows. Sonny did not. But Sonny has a championship ring. Yeah, but he didn't start.

Kilmer was the starter. I know. You know, you want to put Kilmer into the conversation? Well, he got to a Super Bowl as a starter, my fault. Sonny, to me, isn't counted as a quarterback that got to a Super Bowl. He was not, you know, he couldn't play that year. He was hurt in 72, the year that they got to the championship game and went to the Super Bowl. It's too bad because they probably would have won it with a healthy Sunny.

Who else are we forgetting? That was my list. And we're talking about Super Bowl era quarterbacks, obviously. Anybody else? I mean, Rivers and Moon are one, two, on that list, whatever order you want to put them out. I think Dan Fouts is in that trio. Okay. All right, let's get your champion.

He's in the Hall of Fame. I know he is, and so is Rivers going to be in the Hall of Fame. Right. Let's get your championship picks right after this word from one of our sponsors. One more thing. real quickly, Tommy, before we get to your championship picks. I was just looking this up. So Breeze and Rivers are going to be in the same first class.

So if you want to say, well, obviously Breeze goes before Rivers, which is 100% true, I'm not going to debate that, that you're not putting both of them in in the same class. Well, Steve Young and Dan Marino went in in the same class. Now, it would have been hard. I mean, they're both a lock first ballot guys. And Rivers is much more. And I will concede this. He's much more of a debatable first ballot guy.

But I don't think he's debatable as a Hall of Famer. I personally don't. Like, you know, in looking at like some of the all-time leaders, you know, passing leaders, you know, he's fifth on the list of career passing yards right now. He's ahead of Marino. Rothlisberger could pass him if he plays another year. Matt Ryan will pass him. That's going to be an interesting guy, Matt Ryan.

You know, he went to a Super Bowl and should have won a Super Bowl. And by the way, was an MVP. That's going to be an interesting Hall of Fame conversation about Matt Ryan. He'll pass Rivers. He's 8,000 yards behind him. But after that, not a lot of guys going to pass him. The next guy that's still playing, Aaron Rogers, you know, is 12,000 passing yards behind Phillip Rivers. He'll probably pass him if you think he's got, you know, three years left.

Matt Stafford is 18,000 yards behind Phillip Rivers. Rivers is going to remain, I guess my point is, in the top seven or eight of passing yardage guys for a long time. long time. It's hard to keep those people out of the Hall of Fame because in front of them, Breeze, Brady, Peyton, or Locke, Farve's already in it, and then behind them, Marino's in it, Rathlisberger will be, Eli will be, Elway is 10 he's in, you know,

you're going to get to the point where he, is he really going to be the only guy in your top 10 of passing yardage that isn't in the Hall of Fame? he's going to be in the Hall of Fame. I've gotten some pushback on that. He will be. And it's kind of interesting is that the you remember the controversial

deal that brought Eli Manning to the Giants and wound up Rivers to San Diego would have both those quarterbacks making the Hall of Fame. I'll ask you the question that I asked Ross Tucker this morning on the radio show. If you could go into the

2004 draft right now knowing what Rivers, Rothelisberger, and Eli, you know, the kind of players they were, but not knowing their playoff success, just knowing their regular season success and the kind of players they were qualitatively, what order does the draft go in with those three? I would put Rivers number one. I put Rafflesberger number two and Eli number three. Eli's definitely number three. I think Ben goes number one, but not by a whole lot over rivers. And I think a lot of you listening would say, are you guys insane?

Rathlisberger is the easy number one. And look, Rathlisberger had some unbelievable seasons. I mean, playing at a super, super high level. I get that. And so did Rivers, though. So did Rivers. And again, Rathlisberger probably played on better teams. But I think I would probably go Ben won Philip Rivers too.

Look, the one thing about Rivers, and I'll concede this, I just loved his style. I loved what Belichick said about him many years ago that Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers are the two quarterbacks in the history of the game or in this era that have controlled the game at the line of scrimmage more than any other quarterbacks. I don't know if that was a slight at Brady or slam at Brady. I don't think it was, but Belichick loved Rivers. But I think Ben won, probably Ben won over Rivers.

All right, two championship games. Let's go with the assumption that Mahomes is going to play. Let's start with that one, which is the last one. Give me your pick on Kansas City Buffalo. Kansas City right now is a three and a half point favorite. Well, I'm going to go with Kansas City. I'm going to, if Mahom, if Mahom, if, if Mahon Holmes plays and is capable of playing. I'm going to, that's the easy one. I'm going to go with Kansas City. I think Buffalo has the, is in the situation where, you know,

they will benefit from getting this far when they take the field next year. But they're sort of like where Kansas City was before Kansas City wound up, you know, getting to the Super Bowl and winning it. I think there's a lot to that in terms of progressing in your playoff experience. So I just don't think Buffalo is ready to be to Cinderella yet at this point playing Kansas City. I'm going with Kansas City if Mahomes. Why would anyone think Mahomes did not suffer a concussion when he could barely stand? There's the Dr. David Chow wrote about some sort of carotid artery thing with.

the way his neck got twisted, that it's not a serious thing that happened to him at all. But it does cause some sort of reaction that's similar to, you know, a boxer being dazed. I don't know, Tommy. Okay. Whatever. Real quickly, before we get to your NFC thing, number one is, I think you're right about the progression. You know, Kansas City lost to New England in that AFC title game at Arrowhead and then won it last year and are back again this year. and maybe that's the

this is the step. Buffalo lost a playoff game last year. They won a playoff. They win two playoff games this year. I think they have a really good chance. I really do think Buffalo has a chance. But that may be the way it goes. Before we get to the NFC Championship pick from you,

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Use my promo code Kevin, D.C. Right now on MyBooky, Green Bay is up to a minus three and a half point favorite. They're also minus 120 on that. So you've got to pay double juice on a loss, which typically you have to do, if you're laying two and a half. They're begging for some Tampa action on this at minus three and a half, Tampa plus three and a half. Who do you like in this one? Can we say, look, not that there's been much debate anymore,

but if Tom Brady manages to beat Aaron Rogers in this NFC title game, then it's over the debate about the greatest quarterback of all time. Well, I think it's been over anyway. Well, you still have, I mean, people will argue that, you know, Montana never lost a playoff game, won four Super Bowl and never lost one. Montana's got 16 playoff wins. Brady just had his 32nd. I get that.

But Montana is undefeated in the playoffs, and that counts for something. Okay. Well, you know, he's undefeated in the Super Bowl. He's undefeated in the Super Bowl. You're right, not the playoffs. His playoff record was 16 and 7. Brady's is 32 and 11. That's pretty good.

He's played 43 playoff games. I know. I think Brady's the best. But this, I think, would elevate him to a level we've never seen before. Because no one expects Brady to beat Rogers on Sunday. No one expects Tampa to beat Green Bay in Green Bay. Sure they do. Oh, I think they have.

Absolutely can. They're only a three-point dog. The action's completely split. I've heard a lot of experts picking Tampa. I mean experts, so-called experts. We're experts, God damn it. Based on what? What do you mean based on what?

They just went to New Orleans in one. They won two road playoff games. They're peaking right now. New Orleans was playing with a quarterback who couldn't throw 10 yards. That's true. You know what? They also, I really think New Orleans is defense in overall team minus the quarterback was the best team in the NFC.

But yeah, no, you're right. You're right. But, I mean, you know, Tampa Bay has now won six in a row. And it's Tom Brady. And sure, a lot of people are giving Tampa a shot. The line is three. It's going to be 21-0 before you go to the bathroom for the first time. Green Bay?

Yes. Okay. I sort of feel like it's an Aaron Rogers year, too. but no result. Actually, no result this weekend is going to surprise me. No team winning either game is going to surprise me. You know, the one thing about Tampa Bay, Tommy, is they're facing a team in Green Bay that's a much lesser team

defensively than the team they just faced in New Orleans. And even the team they beat in the wild card round, Washington. It's going to be easier for Tampa's offense here in the postseason than it was in their first two postseason games. You can move the ball against, Yeah, but Tampa's offense, but I don't think Tampa's offense. I mean, Green Bay's defense is their offense. They don't just keep putting points on the board.

You mean the opposite. Green Bay's offense is their defense. Yeah, what did I say? Green Bay's defense is their offense. Well, that's not what I meant. You know that. I know that. I've known you for a long time.

I know exactly what you're saying, even when the things that you say don't make any sense at all. So who's your pick? It's the Packers? Yeah, if Green Bay wins, and they will, this will mean, of course, the obvious that three former Washington football assistant coaches will have gone to the last three Super Bowl. Understood.

So you're picking the Packers and you're taking the Packers minus the three. Yes. Okay. Easy money. I did say three, right? No, three and a half. My fault.

Three and a half. So I think the more interesting question, actually, is not, you know, this solidifies Brady is the goat, because he is the goat, in my opinion. He passed Elway for me a couple of years ago. The bigger question is, what if Rogers loses this game? Rodgers then becomes a quarterback that has been to one Super Bowl, only one. He won it, thankfully for him, so he's not Marino. but his playoff record with a loss would be 12 and 9. Now, he's been great in these postseason games.

Like, there hasn't been a game that's been on him that they've lost, really. You know, last year, and by the way, he'd then be 1 and 5 in championship games, I believe it is. This is the first championship game he has played at home. No, he's 1 in 3 right now. He's 1 in 3 in championship games, so he'd become 1 and 4. This table you're setting, if they lose, then he's Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is considered one of the top five quarterbacks, maybe, or six or seven of all time. He got to one Super Bowl.

Two. Has a lousy playoff record. Two. He gets two. Two Super Bowls. That's right, with Denver. Yeah. Has a lousy playoff record.

But he won two. He won two, even if you don't think his role in the second one was that significant. I'll just remind everybody, Denver didn't make. the playoffs after Peyton retired after that year. But is he Peyton Manning? I always said about Peyton's playoff record, which his postseason record, I'm looking it up right now because I want to make sure I have this right, because I think it was sub-500.

No, the win over Carolina made it 14 and 13 overall. And I'll tell you what, nobody lost more at home as like a very high seed than Peyton Manning did. Man, he lost a lot of games. By the way, as I mentioned, one of them to Philip Rivers at home, one of them to Ben Rathesberger at home in an early round game when he was in indie. Yeah, I don't know. Look, you know, Aaron Rogers is way up there for me, way up there, even if he loses to Brady in the championship game. Peyton Manning is way up there, even though he's got a 14 and 13 postseason record. I just know watching what I felt watching them.

Like in so many ways in watching Aaron Rogers, there really hasn't been anybody better than him at times during some of these years than Aaron Rogers. Absolutely. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone throw the ball with less physical effort than Aaron Rogers. It's the same way I feel about Marino. Like, if you watched him, you know.

You can take Dan Marino's, you know, no Super Bowls and talk about him until you're blue in the face. If you watched Dan Marino and you don't think he's one of the five, six, seven greatest quarterbacks that you've ever watched, I can't help you. I just, I know what I watched when I watched Marino. He had the best pocket presents, the best, oh, great. greatest arm, the quickest release, was a leader. He had terrible teams that he was playing on for many of those years. It's like the Elway first few years when they went to the Super Bowl. He was getting to Super Bowl's Elway was and losing them before he finally won him with a running game and Shanahan is the coach where it was all Elway. Well, it was all Marino. I know what

I've watched with Aaron Rogers. If Brady loses, he's still the greatest of all time for me. It's just too overwhelming the data. But in terms of Rogers being 12 in 10, if he loses his game or 12 and 9 with just one Super Bowl, I still know that Aaron Rogers is one of the 10 greatest quarterbacks I've ever watched play. And by the way, he's got more time. He's got more time.

He's got more left in his career. I do sort of feel like it's his time this year again. but it's not going to shock me if Brady goes in there and wins, you know, in a cold, snowy lambo, huh? It will shock me. All right. All right. You got Kansas City.

You got Green Bay. You got a rematch of Super Bowl one, Tommy. You were there for that one as a young cub reporter. We will talk on Tuesday. Thank you. Back tomorrow, everybody with Cooley will preview both games and have picks. Wait a minute. What?

We didn't talk about our favorite island beer. Oh, yeah. Tommy told me that he was drinking Red Stripes down in Florida the last couple days on beautiful days down in Florida. The first time I ever drank Red Stripe was in the Cayman Islands on my honeymoon when you were there at the same time. We didn't know each other. That's right. But I was staying at the Grand Hyatt on Grand Cayman and they were filming the movie, The Firm. and when I mentioned that to you a few years back, you're like, oh my God, I was in the Cayman Islands that same week.

Yeah, I was in the Holiday Inn where they were also filming the firm because they filmed the Beach Bar episode at the Holiday Inn there. And that was following the 92 season. I remember covering the Reds, Washington that year, and then take a vacation after that. of all things, running into Terry Ore in the Cayman Island. So I just covered that season. But I didn't drink Red Stripe there. The first time I drank Red Stripe was maybe about seven or eight years ago in Jamaica, and I fell in love with it there.

And last year, at the end of our Florida trip, we went to Tybee Island, Georgia, for about a week. And there, I was at a bar where they were selling 16 ounce of cans of red stripe for $2 a can. And that, if that wasn't enough, the grocery store was selling those same 16 ounce cans of red stripe for a buck a can.

What's your favorite cheap? I don't know how they did it. What's your favorite cheap beer of all time? Probably peels real draft. I don't know if anyone remembers Peel's beer, but it was a big beer in the 60s and 60s. In the early 70s, when I was in a fraternity, I used to buy Peel's Real Draft six-pack for $1.19 a six-pack. Mine was Milwaukee's best. That was definitely the go-to college cheap beer.

God, I drank a lot of Milwaukee's best, and I drank a lot of Bush beer in college. Those were two good cheap beers. There were cheap beers that were just undrinkable, I thought. Like Schlitz was undrinkable for me. PBR, which has become very popular in recent years with younger people, I couldn't drink PBR. I liked Rolling Rock. I thought Rolling Rock was a good cheap. Rolling Rock was kind of a cool thing to drink back then.

Yeah, exactly. By the way, the scene that they filmed when I was at the, on Grand Cayman, was the scene. with Gene Hackman and Gene Triplehorn when they were, you know, when she was drugging his, you know, drinking, trying to get all the information out of him. That was the scene down at the pool. And my wife and I, on her honeymoon, sat on our balcony and watched them film that scene. It was pretty cool. Had no idea and had not read the books yet, I don't think. You know, the Grisham, that may have been Grisham's first book that got turned into a movie. I think it may have been.

Anyway, we're done for the day. I'll talk to you on Tuesday, thanks. Okay, boss. All right, back tomorrow. Bye.