The Kevin Sheehan Show - Skins Getting Offers for #2

Episode Date: April 21, 2020

Kevin and Thom discussed the latest news on the NFL Draft including Ian Rappaport/NFL Network who reported the Skins have gotten offers for their #2 overall pick. The latest on Trent Williams, Thom's thoughts on "The Last Dance", and milestones/records that Kevin and Thom witnessed live. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. That's right. Sports Fix Tuesday. Tommy's in today. He'll be with us on Thursday, the day of the draft this week. As I mentioned, we're scheduled to have Cooley on the show tomorrow to get his draft preview. We're going to talk some draft today. We're going to talk about some of the things that have happened here over the the last few days that we haven't had a chance to get to with Tommy, including the Jordan Bulls last dance two episodes on Sunday night, which got ridiculous ratings, Tommy. I don't know if you saw it, but like way, the highest rated like cable documentary of all time were the first two episodes of the Jordan Bulls thing. I did want to start with this real quickly. This report that the NFL, you know, did this mock.

two-round virtual draft yesterday. And apparently there were technical issues, you know, with the very first pick with the bangles. But then after that, you know, after the early hiccup, I guess, it went pretty smoothly. I don't know what they're trying to do on Thursday night, but I can't imagine how, why this would be that difficult. You know, like, first of all, Thursday night should be a no-brainer. Like you have, take the Redskins.

Ron Rivera, Kyle Smith, and the guy Robber. Rogers. Why can't they be on a conference call together, you know, a three-way conference call, discussing the draft, they're watching the draft, they're seeing this thing play out, they see when they're on the clock, they've got their board, they call it in to draft headquarters, to NFL headquarters. Why are we trying to zoom this thing and virtual this thing? I mean, if there are any issues technically, don't you just have your cell phone as a backup? it shouldn't be that hard. I agree with you.

But TV demands a TV show. You know, I guess the idea, for me, I'd be perfectly fine if they flash the still picture of Ron Rivera up on the screen with him discussing this over the phone. I'd be perfectly fine with that. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm confused. We're not going to get Ron Rivera. And Kyle Smith, you know, on virtual Skype or some, you know, Zoom video conference call on television discussing their pick while they're on the clock. We're not going to get that.

I know that. So all we're talking about are the TV talking heads. Yeah. Talking back and forth to each other. That shouldn't impact the picks. Well, then put their pictures up there. I don't need to see them on some little posted side. screen in the upper corner with seven other guys on the screen in different parts.

So, you know, this is, I mean, it doesn't do anything for me, but I guess it does, you know, for a segment of the population that is operating that way now. You know, have you done the Zoom multi- Oh, yeah, multiple times now with family over the weekends? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't like it. Do you like it? I don't know.

you know, I'll tell you, you know, the last week or so in seeing, you know, I trust, it's not, it's not that I feel guilty about this and, you know, but I do recognize that there is like part of the population that is hunkered down following instructions and having these Zoom conference, you know, video calls with family members. Hey, how are you doing? We're great. What are you guys doing? And then you've got these people that are literally in economic and financial distress. And I just, I find the, I find this situation right now. I don't want to spend a lot of time in this because I'm not going to get on a soapbox here. But I think it's some of the most challenging times we've ever lived in. We've gone through this last month. And the decisions that are made are so complex and so hard. and there's just there's there's there multiple not that there aren't always multiple versions of America but right now you know I watch these protesters and I see people criticizing them like get some of these people are desperate I mean they're not they've got to feed their families I get that I get that I don't think those those people are showing up protesting at the capital You know what? You're probably right. That's fair. But there are people that are desperate right now. You know, three quarters of this country lives paycheck to paycheck. And we've got 22 million people and it's climbing almost exponentially, you know, day by day that, you know, have to have families and have to feed themselves. And we've got food lines and people standing in line for food now. You're right. The people that are out, protesting with, you know, the COVID-19 is a lie. In meantime, they're wearing masks and gloves.

You know, it's so, it's so ridiculous. Those people probably aren't in nearly the same sort of desperate situation, but they do have a First Amendment, right, Tommy? Like, I do find it interesting that there's so much criticism of this. And yet, you know, Constitution, our Constitution allows for people to push back in the way that they're, you know, they have the right to assemble. But, Kevin, this is the problem with all of it. Okay? When they do that, and if they somehow get sick from the virus, then that puts added pressure on a medical system that's already under attack. I know.

You are not an island onto yourself. When you exercise your individual rights this time, in one of the rare occasions, it could affect hundreds of other people down the line. So that's the complication is you can go out there and protest, but if you get sick, it's going to affect me if I have to go to the hospital for a heart attack, let's say. You know? Well, look, we have done a phenomenal job of avoiding, at this point, with the exception of a couple of hot spot areas, obviously New York being number one.

We have allowed for our healthcare system to catch up to the potential problem. We did not, because of mitigation, because of social distancing, because of stay-at-home orders, etc. Over now going on six, seven weeks now, right? Six weeks anyway. We have, you know, smooth, we've curved it out. We've stemmed the tide in most areas. Doesn't mean that it won't pop back up and it won't get worse, potentially, with a second wave, et cetera, or with people going back to work. But the biggest fear initially was health care system overloaded.

They don't have masks. They don't have ventilators. They don't have the proper equipment. And while testing continues to be a major problem, and it has been from the beginning, we have now, in most places, we're in a much better position. position from an equipment, from a number of beds, et cetera, situation to handle a bigger influx of patients, which we weren't. So we've done a good job. I'm not saying that it couldn't be overrun again, but we're in better shape today than we were six weeks ago. This was part of the reason for doing what we were told to do, was to get this equipment and to get the hospitals

and the health care system geared up to be able to handle this. And at the same time, we simultaneously kept the numbers much lower than the dire predictions early on. But that still doesn't mean that your decision to protest could put me at risk. That still doesn't mean that that doesn't happen. That still doesn't mean the medical system still isn't overtaxed. I mean, look, the mayor of D.C. is setting up a 500-bed hospital at the convention Center for next month because she says next month is going to be worse. June 8th or whatever, yeah.

So, I mean, that's the problem with exercising your First Amendment right is you're, you are, you are potentially putting other people at risk. Well, I mean, if you get sick. Yes, I understand that. This is obviously uncharted territory and with a pandemic where you're, like nothing we've ever dealt with. Right. I completely agree. What started this conversation was the Zoom thing. And the only thing I just, I, there is a part of America that is, you know, making it, staying at home, you know, is in position financially to withstand, you know, a long hunkering down, stay at home. Let's keep everybody safe. Let's save lives mentality. And oh, by the way, isn't this Zoom video conferencing call thing fun with family?

members, and then there are a lot of people that aren't in that position, more people that aren't in that position. And it's just a complicated time. I mean, forget. It's very complicated. It's incredibly complicated. I mean. There's two things, and then I'm not going to, I don't want to talk about it anymore.

You can't if you want to. I'm sure the stimulus check is easing their pain tremendously. with that big fat that everybody got. And the second thing is, these decision makers, they could give a rat's ass about these people under normal conditions.

So don't sit there and tell me that these guys are crying crocodile tears for these poor people who can't feed their families. They don't give a shit about them under normal conditions. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know. You don't have to respond. You know, you have to read it. No, I just, I just think right now, and it's just, you know, again, I mean, I think even his most ardent of supporters would certainly agree almost anybody that's halfway normal, even if you're a supporter of policies and even, you know, the first three years, would certainly agree that this has not been, certainly from a communication standpoint, being specific, from a communication standpoint,

the best example of leadership that we've ever seen. I mean, it's far from it. You know what? You know what he'd be good at? Being a program director at a radio. Some of the ones we've had over the years. He cut out for that. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. No disrespect to my current good friend Christopher Johnson,

but my God, have we had some beauties in the past, haven't we? Oh, my God. I mean, seriously, we've had program directors at the station over the years, and we won't mention them by name. Where, you know, all of us that were on the air doing the shows would just, I mean, at least 15 to 20 eye rolls a week, minimum. Oh, God. I mean, as Gary Braun always said about the radio industry when it comes to management in the radio industry, it's a C-minus business. And that, I think, was actually... That was generous.

Yeah, that was being generous. No doubt. All right. So we're in agreement that Thursday night, there really shouldn't be any problems. Like if we get, you know, Detroit's on the clock and we haven't gotten Detroit's pick because they're having technical issues with their virtual connection and we're going to extend them another three minutes until we get up. That shouldn't be.

Hey, Detroit, pick up your cell phone, dial a number that the league gave you to. to get the pick in and let's move on. It doesn't seem that hard. Yeah, I know, but like I said, I mean, this is all TV generated. It's got to be. I mean, you know, the NFL executives conduct business among themselves every day all year. I don't think they're the problem. I think it's creating a TV show.

That's the problem. Yes, I understand that, but it shouldn't stop. You understand there are two exclusive events here. getting the pick in so that the draft doesn't get delayed or somebody doesn't miss getting a pick and the television show part of it. In the dress rehearsal, they probably didn't abandon the TV show part just to make it work. I think in reality, they probably would. They would say, well, we don't have time to get this to work. We need to get the pick in now.

I think in the dress rehearsal, they probably didn't do that. They probably tried everything they could to make the show work as opposed to the actual process of draft picks. I'm looking forward to it. I would hope so. I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be, you know, the NFL draft is typically an entertaining event to begin with, but then just to see how this one gets pulled off will be interesting. I have enjoyed many of the people who have put out tweets since the last couple of days,

essentially comparing it to your fantasy football draft in which, you know, there the lions are on the clock and they don't have a pick in, they don't have a pick in, and then all of a sudden it auto picks Jerry Judy or something like that. You know, it's like people have put out some really creative tweets comparing it to fantasy football drafts, which, by the way, just as an aside, I think you know this. I think I mentioned this to you maybe last week or before. For years, and you were never involved, you didn't want to do it. But we always had a fantasy football league at 980. And Sali ran it, and, you know, there was a big draft night. And a couple, the two years that I didn't, I couldn't be there on the draft night

and my whole team got auto-picked were the two years that I won it. And I always just, I would just tell all of them like, this is why. I mean, because I've never been a huge fantasy football guy. Why, Tommy? Because I'm into heroin. I bet. I bet real money on games with bookmakers. And fantasy football to me has always been like, you know,

drinking a beer versus, you know, doing hard drugs or drinking hard liquor. But anyway, it was always, now, when I always, auto-picked these teams, I would go back, obviously, and, you know, make trades and cuts and the whole thing and add. But it's funny that the two years that I auto-picked my fantasy football team, I ended up winning the 980 league. Real quickly, I wanted to tell you about, I had Scott McLuhan on the show yesterday, which was actually very interesting. I've stayed in touch with Scott over the years, and he hasn't, I don't know if I mentioned this or not on the podcast. The bottom line is he came on, you know, with me. My sense of it is, after asking him many times in recent years to come on,

is that now that the radio station isn't owned by the Redskins anymore, and maybe now that Bruce Allen is gone, that, you know, he was okay doing it, doing it. But whatever, he came on with me yesterday. And for those of you that listen to it, you know this. He said that Chase Young, in the 28 years he's been scouting is basically the best defensive end that he's ever scouted, or certainly one of them. Charlie Casserly sort of indicated the same thing, and he came on with me later on in the show yesterday. And for those that haven't heard it, you can go back and listen to it at the team 980.com and downloading the team 980 app to listen to it. But I wanted to tell you two stories that Charlie Casserly shared with me that I hadn't heard before. You know, usually, you know, every year when we've

got Charlie on before the draft, you know, you ask Charlie to tell some stories and sometimes they're repeats and Sometimes you have new ones, but there were two new ones yesterday. First of all, and I'd never heard this before, the 1988 trade of Jay Schrader to the Raiders for Jim Lachet, and draft choices, by the way, was one of the great trades in the history of the Redskins. Bobby Betherd made that trade. Charlie was the assistant GM in 1988. But basically, this was one of the, you know, one-sided beat-down trades of all time. Now, Jay Schrader started an AFC championship game for the Raiders in Buffalo in 91, I think, or maybe 1990. But anyway, Jim Lachet was a great left tackle, a phenomenal left tackle.

A three time with the Redskins, three times he was an all pro, in addition to being a pro bowler. And he came in. He actually initially came in and played right tackle because Jacobi, was the left tackle and they switched him because Lechay was not nearly as capable of playing right and he was a dominant left tackle and they moved Jacoby to right tackle. But Charlie told me the following story. He said, you know, an interesting thing about that trade. Al Davis told Bobby, pick your player. I'm going to give you three choices. Marcus Allen, Howie Long, or Tim Brown. And pick whatever player you want and we'll make the trade.

and Bobby picked a player and when he picked the player, Al Davis said, oh, no, no, no, I was just kidding about that list. And none of those players are available. And Charlie said that that was Al Davis at his best. And I asked Charlie, well, who was the player that Bobby picked? And he said he didn't remember. But I would have a hard time believing that it wasn't Marcus Allen.

You know, and Howie Long would have been a great choice too. Tim Brown would have been super young, I think, at that point. And it ended up being Jim Lachey and they got some. some picks with Lechay as well. But can you imagine Marcus Allen in a Redskins uniform? They had Ernest Biner and they had Gerald Riggs, I think, going into that next year, if I recall. But anyway, so Davis pulled the three names back and said, I was just basically making up that list. None of those three players are available. And then Charlie did say that it was hard to get to Jim Lechay because he didn't want to trade Le Shea either, but they ended up making that deal.

The other thing that came out of that was just a brief conversation this morning with C.G. And I'm curious as to whether or not you think this is true. C.J. Charlie said, you know, remember, Jake ended up moving to right tackle when Lechay got here. And Jake played out his final few years as a left tackle. Now, Jake was at the right tackle. Jake was the left tackle throughout the decade is an all-decade 1980s selection. Three-time all-pro player is a left tackle, multi-time pro bowl or et cetera. And then Jim Lachet was just not a right tackle, and they moved him to left tackle, and Jake moved to right tackle.

And Lichet was a dominant left tackle. In fact, Lichet may be the most talented lineman, talent-wise, that's ever played in the organization. He was a great professional football player and played. I think you're right. Played here for seven, eight years after the trade and then retired in 95. Anyway, and was, by the way, part of the 91 Redskins and the Hogs that won the Super Bowl. CJ said to me this morning, he's like, do you think that Jake being supplanted by Lechay? You know, when Jake was still in what was, you know, should have been considered the prime of his career, he's only eight, nine,

years into his career at that point, eight years into his career, that maybe that's a reason that Hall of Fame voters look at him and say, well, you know, if you're a Hall of Fame or how did you essentially lose your left tackle spot to Jim Lachey and non-Hallof-famer? I've never heard that before. Have you? Absolutely not. That's that's looking for, that's too much thinking, as I like to say. A lot of people suffer from this disease. It's too much. thinking that's simply a guy who, an offensive lineman, have a more difficult time getting in the Hall of Fame

than any other, except for kicker, I guess, than maybe any other position because it's hard to quantify at this point. And Russ Grimm was the first hog to go in. And so, I mean, there's lots of other reasons. But being moved from left tackle to right tackle, I'm betting most people in the room don't even know I think you're right. I think you're right about that. And that's what I said. I just don't see that. Jake was in all 1980s left tackle. You know, he was a day, a decade player. Yes, he was. So I don't see that either. The other, the other story, so I'm watching, I actually watched some draft, old draft programming from over the weekend. They had, you know, they had these documentaries on the NFL networks produced on various, drafts, one of the most famous being the 1983 draft, which was the draft that saw six

quarterbacks go in the first round. And it was actually, I had not seen this particular show. I've seen that documentary Elweda Marino. This was a little bit different and went in depth through the entire first round. Anyway, I've asked Bobby Beatherd this many times before, but I had Charlie on yesterday. And I said, what do you remember about that draft in Dan Marino, you know, falling throughout the first round. And then basically you guys coming within one pick of Marino. The Dolphins were number 27. The Redskins had the last pick.

There were 28 teams in the league at the time. Redskins had just beaten the Dolphins in Super Bowl 17. Redskins had the 28th pick. The dolphins had the 27th. John Elway had gone first overall in the very controversial, you know, Baltimore, Denver situation with Ernie, of course, C and Ursay. And, you know, there's some. great stories in that. It was all about Jack Elway essentially saying, my son is not going to play for Frank

Cush, who he couldn't stand. And Elway had, you know, at least perceived leverage being able to play baseball and go to the Yankees, which he really did not want to do. He wanted to play football. But anyway, Marino falls as, you know, Elway's picked, which was the number one pick. Everybody agreed that Elway was the number one quarterback. But most people thought that Marino would potentially be the second quarterback. Well, it was Blackledge, and then it was Jim Kelly, and there's some interesting stories there as well. And then it is Tony Eason, and then it's Ken O'Brien, and then Marino to Miami at 27. And I said, what do you remember about that? He said, we were taking it. Well, let me back up. Bobby Bethard's always told me that Marino was the highest rated player on their board after Elway.

that he was, you know, it was Elway Marino won two on their draft board. But they were never going to take Marino because they had Joe Thaisman. Right. You know, and Joe Thysman had just won the Super Bowl. And, you know, they thought, you know, Thysman was going to take off. And, by the way, he had a phenomenal 1983. And Darryl Green was their guy. Like, you know, and remember, Tommy, if you remember this draft,

no one had heard of Daryl Green. Daryl Green was not a projected first round pick. This was a Bobby Bethard find. And he had heard, and he's told me the story before, that, you know, he had, it was his intention to take Daryl Green because he didn't think he'd get him in his second round pick, which was at the end of the second round. But he also thought that, you know, that teams were starting to get a whiff of how great Darrell Green was and how teams were interested.

But anyway, Charlie said, yeah, we were never going to take Marino because of Thaisman. but we had two guys at 28 if Daryl Green was gone. We had Daryl Green, and then if Green had gone, we were going to take Henry Ellard. Henry Ellard would have been their first round pick at the end of the first round. Henry Ellard was this, he said we really loved Henry Ellard. And remember, Ellard ended up becoming a red skin. And he was very good. Really good.

He was very good for them at the end of his career, yeah. Yeah, he got to Washington when North Turner was there and had big seasons for the the Redskins. Norv Turner called him the best route running wide receiver he had ever coached. And he, I mean, remember, he coached Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper and that whole group in Dallas. And he said Henry Ellard was the best route runner he had ever coached. But anyway, one more story real quickly. I almost forgot from the 1983 draft. Maybe you remember this. Somebody, actually, I've been able to confirm it since, but somebody texted me this yesterday when I was talking about this, either on the radio show or the podcast, I can't remember. So Jim Kelly in that draft had made

it very clear to all the people in his inner circle. He did not want to play in a cold weather city. He didn't want to play in Green Bay. He didn't want to play in Buffalo. He didn't want to play in New England or New York. He had gone to your school, the University of Miami, and he wanted to play in a warm weather city. And so Buffalo had two picks in the first round, number 12 and number 14. They didn't take him at number 12 and he thought they might and he celebrated at home. But then Buffalo had a pick two picks later and they picked him at 14 overall. Well, Jim Kelly had the option of the USFL and he got picked by the Houston gamblers in the USFL. And so in that process of reviewing contract offers, Buffalo had a better deal. And so he ends up in Buffalo,

at Buffalo's team headquarters with his agent in a room, getting ready to sign a contract to commit to Buffalo and the NFL. And the secretary for whomever the GM was for Buffalo at the time comes into the room before he signs the contract with Buffalo and says, Mr. Kelly, you have a very important call. This person's insisting that you take this call that it's very important. Have you heard this story or not? No, I have not.

So Kelly leaves the room. And on the other end of the phone is a gentleman who says, essentially, name your team, name your price, we want you in the USFL. And so he chose Houston and got a huge contract and a huge commitment. And the person on the other end of the phone that got to him right before he signed his contract with Buffalo was Bruce Allen. Really? Bruce Allen was working for his father

and the league essentially. His father was the coach of the Chicago Blitz in the USFL. Bruce was either the GM or you know, had a position with that particular team. But for whatever reason, Bruce Allen was the guy that called and got Kelly right before he signed his deal with Buffalo, and Kelly didn't go back into the room and eventually signed a deal with the Houston

Gamblers. And by the way, hooked up with Ricky Sanders for two incredibly prolific seasons in Houston. Kelly threw 82 touchdown passes in two years. Wait a minute, 83 touchdown passes in two years in Houston and nearly 10,000 yards as the Houston gamblers quarterback in the USFL in 84 and 85. And then, obviously, after the USFL folded, ended up in Buffalo and says being in Buffalo has been the best thing that ever happened to him. And he was so wrong about Buffalo and the fans and the whole thing.

And obviously, he had a Hall of Fame career with the bills. But I thought that was interesting. Somebody sent me that note when I was telling this story. And they said, did you know that that was Bruce Allen? And I said, I didn't. And then they sent me a link to a story about it. and it was Bruce Allen who apparently called. Crazy.

I wonder what Bruce is doing during this draft. Who knows? I wonder if he's consulting with anybody. I doubt it. I doubt it, too. I don't know if he's still in town or if he's in California. I actually don't know. But anyway, I thought that was an interesting story.

All right. A couple things to get to. Reports this morning about, first from Ian Rappaport, Ian Rappaport early this morning tweeted out that the Redskins have begun to receive calls from teams interested in trading up to the number two overall selection. They aren't intent on moving out of the pick. Many believe we'll be Chase Young, but they are listening. I've got some thoughts on this. Do you? Well, yeah, they've been the same that I've had all the whole time that this has been going on. If they can get an RG3-type trade like the Rams had, you know, get three first and a second for moving up, then I think you make the deal. Other than that, unless you get a deal that you can't refuse, you stay at number two and your draft takes young.

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think this is the Redskins, you know, leaking Drapaport, who's always had a connection to the Redskins. He doesn't always get it right on the Redskins, but he's always been a guy that's had a lot of stuff on the Redskins over the years. I think this is just the Redskins trying to put some heat on somebody like Miami to make an offer. Because Charlie told me yesterday that his sources say that no one's made an offer to Washington, Detroit, or New York. spots two, three, and four in the draft. But that's as of yesterday, and we're getting closer to to the draft. So, you know, this could happen. I think they're going to pick Chase Young. I'd be shocked if they don't. I agree with you. The only offer I would listen to would be Miami's number

five, number 18, number 39 in the second round, and next year's number one. So three ones and a two for them to move up three spots and get the skins first round pick. But I don't know. You know, the draft over the years, we all know this. It's random. It's a roll of the dice. It's a crap shoot. You know, I do really subscribe and have over the years to the thought that volume of picks is better than perhaps fewer picks with better position. You know, the bottom line is, is that most evaluators, most GMs, most teams miss on the majority of players that they draft. You know, a good hit rate in the draft is to get 35 to 40 percent of the players you pick to be contributors within three years. And that doesn't even mean starter. That just means,

you know, a meaningful contributor. So 35 to 40 percent is a good hit rate in the draft. So based on that and based on the crapshoot nature, it, you know, the math says it's better. to draft 10 players and get three and a half to four out of it rather than to draft five and maybe get two. With that said, the quarterback position's different. You know, when you need a quarterback and you like a quarterback, you should be less inclined to trade back. And I think a pass rusher is very important, not at the level of quarterback, but if you really like a pass rusher, you know, I think it's risky if you've got a pass rusher that you love to trade back as well. I went back Tommy and looked at this. Over the last decade, there have been four pass rushers picked in the

top two picks. Nick Bosa last year, Miles Garrett in 2017 was the number one pick. Gidevian Clownie was the number one pick in 2014, and Von Miller was the number two pick in 2011. Nick Bosa looks like already a star. Miles Garrett, major star, you know, pass rush. talent. Jadavian Clowny has all that you'd love to see. He's just been injured and, you know, hasn't had the right fit. And Von Miller, you know, has already had probably a Hall of Fame career. Right, yeah.

So with the pass rusher, if you're convinced about Chase Young like everybody else is, man, you'd have to get the blockbuster deal of all time not to pick Chase Young. Yeah, I've said that all along and particularly, I mean, you know, Ron Rivera, I mean, has grown up with defense's whole life. I mean, he was an outstanding linebacker in college. He's been a linebacker's coach, a defensive coordinator. In addition to being a head coach, he played on one of the greatest defenses of all time, the 85 Bears.

And he's going to pass by somebody who's considered one of the great defensive talent in the draft in recent years. I mean, I don't see him doing that. I think it's against his very nature. Yeah, I agree with you. And I'm more, you know, with this group right now, with Rivera and company, I mean, over the last many years when it came to, you know, Bruce Allen and this, you know, a group of buffoons.

And certainly in that first 10 years of Snyder's ownership, once we figured out that he and Vinny really weren't very good at this. I mean, to me, it was all about, you know what, just keep acquiring picks and try to draft 10 plus players so that at least you hit on a few of them, you know? I mean, rather than have them and the group that they've had over the years, you know, try to hit the inside straight on five picks. You know, it just wasn't going to happen. But I have more faith in Rivera and his staff right now, and I have a little bit of faith in Kyle Smith, too, to be honest with you, as an evaluator. So if they have Chase Young evaluated at the level that Kasserly and McClun and everybody else do, I don't want him to make a mistake. I watched Chase Young for the last couple of years.

Every time you watched him, he looked like the next dominant NFL pass rushing player. I just wouldn't risk it. I just would. I mean, you could miss on him and maybe you pass on a big package. I'll be surprised, actually, given what's been reported here recently. I just don't think the Redskins are going to get offered a major package. I don't think they're going to have anything to turn down. I don't.

Probably not. You know what's interesting now? What? And I did this, and I'm going to write a column about it. You go back and look 10 years ago around this time, exactly, 10 years ago. It was in many ways the same situation. A new coach, Mike Shanahan, was going to change the culture. You know, the Vinny Dan Snyder era was over,

and the Redskins were about to draft a game-changing offensive tackle in Trent Williams. Ten years has gone by. Trent Williams is on his way out, and what has happened? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Here we are 10 years later back in the same boat. With a new coach who's going to change the culture, the son, another son of a football executive, in this case, Kyle Smith,

who knows, he may turn out to be the dumb son like Bruce Allen was. You know, the son of AJ Smith, who is the general manager, San Diego's charges and who was supposedly a consultant for the Redskins for all these years. It's just stunning that, you know, the Trent Williams era has come and gone and you are no closer. No, you're like standing, it's like standing in quicksand. That's what this franchise has been doing for 10 years. They're stuck in quicksand. You know that.

And the same, the same. the same way out, it's the same way out as it was 10 years ago. Yeah, you know, you just, again, I mean, I'm on repeat here. You just, if you're a fan like me who would like to see it change, even though I would never bet on it because of the owner, but you just, your hope is that he got to a point this year that was just so rock bottom, so, hitting him in the face, you know, with four-fifths of the crowd, you know, four-fifths of the seats

empty with television ratings at an all-time low, that maybe something will change. You know, I'm not counting on it. I'm not counting on it. I think he, I think he got himself a good head coach. I'm a Ron Rivera fan, but you talk about 10 years ago, you know what I thought. I thought that Mike Shanahan was going, you know, that if he let Mike do his job and, look, there was even some thought, you know, that Bruce Allen was a seasoned executive, you know, and administrator. You know, the Trent Williams draft, where they took Trent Williams number four overall with the fourth pick in the first round in 2010, it was the first time in a decade that the Redskins had used, you know, a top three round pick on an offensive lineman. You know,

they had taken Chris Samuels in the 2000 draft at number three over. after they picked LeVar. After that, the Redskins had just butchered the draft. I mean, we know how poor they were in free agency, but they didn't take offensive or defensive linemen. I think it was Derek Dockery was like the highest picked offensive lineman over a nine or ten years stretch and they took him in the third round in a draft that they drafted like three or four players in. They barely even had draft choices, you know,

throwing that. It was like they basically, you know, John McKay, remember famously said, you know, we turned it over five times, but we made up for it with six drop passes. You know, the Redskins effed up free agency, but they made up with it with one horrible draft after another. And it really was. I mean, the drafting in the 2000s by that franchise, It was embarrassing. Embarrassing. But, you know, you mentioned the 2000 draft. To me, this goes down as one of the most remarkable miscues of this franchise.

You draft LeVar Arrington and Chris Samuel in the same draft. Yeah. The same draft. That is the foundation that a franchise should be. That's, at the time, that's Jonathan Ogden and Ray Lewis at that time. Yeah, could have been. And all they, and they didn't have anything to show for it. LeVar was a good player, should have been a great player.

Okay, Chris Samuels was a great tackle, six-time pro bowlers. And it added up to Zip. Well, they had a chance the following year with the right coach for Lovar, Arrington and Chris Samuels and everybody else, but ownership got in the way and he wasn't having any fun and he moved on from Martin. That was a great. You could argue. I don't care what you did after the rest of the 2000 draft.

If you draft, if those two guys are in one single draft, you struck gold. Yeah, let's be clear about this and most people know this. You know, it wasn't Snyder and Vinny that set him up for picks number two and three in that draft. It was Charlie Casserly with the maneuvering with not only Sean Gilbert, but, you know, obviously the year before was the year that he traded basically their pick to New Orleans and Mike Ditka for the whole Saints draft and then traded back up to get Champ Bailey and traded picks for, you know, they had traded picks that year for Brad Johnson and, and then the Sean Gilbert thing, you know, ended up with a situation where they had those picks in 2000. But,

But, yeah, I mean, I agree. Like, they had a chance with that draft. You know, no one else in that draft in that 2000 draft amounted to anything. Not one player. They had another six picks in the draft. Samuels was really great. And LeVar, you know, unfortunately, I think he had an opportunity if Marty stayed on to have become an all-time Redskin with Marty Schottenheimer as the coach. But once Spurrier came in, even though he had a really good year with Marvin Lewis in 2002,

the bottom line is it just didn't ultimately work out for him. And he had injuries and other things. But anyway, the other report this morning was from Josina Anderson, who I think actually does a really good job as a reporter. And this time of year, I mean, we're getting all these reports. And by the way, if anybody ever did sort of an audit of all of these reports, and breaking news stories, Tommy. What percentage of them would pan out to be right, do you think?

Oh, I'd say less than 50%. Oh, definitely less than 50%. I mean, listen, this is what I always tell people. When I try to defend the press, we don't write what the truth is. We write what people say is the truth. That's what we write. So, I mean, you write what people tell you. Right.

So, Josie. I mean, there's lots of stories that I've written that turned out not to be true, that were true at the moment I wrote it. Yeah. Well, I mean, in this time of year for the people that are on the NFL beat, if they get information that isn't true, they're going to run with it anyway because it's going to generate attention. And I don't know.

No, they're not. No, they're not. That doesn't happen. I don't know how many times I can tell you that. It doesn't happen. So you're going to tell me when Ian Rappaport, you know, tweeted out five years ago that the Redskins were going to trade, you know, a first round pick and a second round pick and whatever it was for Tony Romo who had basically a broken back and could barely even stand,

that he was convinced that that was the truth in the moment? No. He was convinced that that conversation took place. That's what he wrote. Okay, great. So if you're convinced that that conversation took place, but you don't think that it makes any sense in your own brain, you know, I'm saying that people continue to go ahead and report it,

even though they probably have a sense that they might be wrong ultimately. But again, Kevin, then you're asking them to analyze what people tell them it's true or not from credible sources, NFL's general manager. I do that as a sports talk radio host. Do you know how many times I've... You would not have reported that conversation on sports talk radio. The Romo thing? The Romo? I would have laughed at it.

I would have mentioned it and then laughed at it as complete and utter bullshit. There's no chance that could be true. You would have reported it, though. You would have mentioned it. So you think in today's day and age with social media that there aren't people putting out reports just to generate a bunch of responses, retweets, and likes. Most from your credible news sources and not fan websites? No, there aren't. Okay. Well, we're not going to get into which are credible and which are fan websites.

I understand the obvious difference, but there's a lot of gray. You know, there's a lot of, you know, NFL draft news, you know, pro football whatever that you think it's pro football talk or pro football something else and ends up being something, you know, something else. Look. Oh, I think there's a lot of gray. I know where it is, too. Yeah.

Well, Josina Anderson is not gray. I think she's a good reporter. No. And she tweeted out this morning, I'm told acquiring Trent Williams is still on the table for the Browns per source. Nothing is imminent or super close right now. but the Browns are keeping their thumb on the situation, meaning something still may or may not happen with Trent before or after the draft. Actually, as I'm reading it, and I love Josina.

I think this is hysterical. Like, come on, I'm told acquiring Trent Williams is still on the table. So somebody said, hey, we're with Cleveland, Josina. You know, yeah, Trent Williams is still on the table. and then she writes, but the Browns are keeping their thumb on the situation, meaning something still may or may not happen with Trent before or after the draft. That's sort of covering all bases there, isn't it? Well, yeah, it is.

But let's say she reported for the Green Bay Packers. They're not interested in Trent, William, so she wouldn't write that story about the Green Bay Packers. My point is, that's a legitimate story. I mean, if the Browns told her, Yeah, we're still interested in Trent Williams. You have to put in the caveat that says, obviously, it depends on the red. This is all dependent on the redskins and what they're willing to taste. So you have to flush that.

Right. But ultimately, the result of the Trent Williams situation will never, ever prove this particular tweet right or wrong. Right. That's correct. Yeah. Anyway. But right would mean that Cleveland front office people didn't tell. Wrong would be Cleveland front office people didn't tell her that.

I understand that. But what I'm getting to now actually isn't where I intended to go. And that is that the way this is spelled out is the way you get a lot of stuff in the days leading up to the draft, which is basically a tweet that gets attention that really, isn't earth-shattering and basically can't be proved or disproved and there's really not a result ultimately that would ever prove this tweet wrong. It's impossible for it to be proved wrong unless somebody were to come out later on down the road and say, the Browns were never interested in Trent Williams ever. And even you wouldn't even believe that if you heard it

based on the interest and the reported interest last year before the trade deadline. But I mean, she covered all the bases there. They're keeping their thumb on the situation, meaning something still may or may not happen before or after the draft. Anyway. And all that may be true. I don't see what the problem is. It's not a problem.

It's not a problem. The headline of this tweet, if there is one, is that the Browns may or may not still be interested, that it's still on the table, which, by the way, So the Browns are interested, but they may or may not close the deal. They may or may not be able to make the deal. Right. The Brown's interest is not debatable. Look, when I reported two months ago or whatever it was, based on a really good source that I had,

that the Redskins and no one else had had this at that point, and I said the Redskins are going to make a run at Amari Cooper when free agency starts, Austin Hooper and Kenyon Drake. And I specifically said at the time, look, they may not get any one of these three players because it takes two to tango. Like Amari Cooper's got to be interested and so does Kenyon Drake. And they have to be available too because they might not be available. They might get tagged or whatever.

But I knew that the information I had was pretty solid. And I knew that no one had mentioned to that point that the Redskins were going to go after of Mari Cooper. In fact, nobody was even thinking a wide receiver at that point. I'm glad ultimately that it was reported after a Cooper signed with the Cowboys that the Redskins had made this

incredible offer, which by the way, Ron Rivera confirmed in that conference call that he had a week and a half ago. But ultimately, I phrased it in a way in which I didn't mean, I didn't do this on purpose, but I said it doesn't

mean, I want to be clear on this, it doesn't mean the Redskins will sign one of these three players because it takes two. In a couple of these players cases, they could be franchise tagged anyway and not be available. But the Redskins are when free agency starts. If these players are available, they're going to go after them. And they did. They went after Amari Cooper with vigor and with a massive offer. They were interested in Hooper but didn't want to go up to the level that Hooper got

from Cleveland and then Kenyon Drake was tagged, so he never became available. But anyway, whatever. I don't even know where we're going with this. The bottom line is, I think there are, I would be surprised personally if Trent Williams isn't dealt in the next, by the end of the draft. I would be surprised if that doesn't happen. I don't know if it will or not. I have no idea.

I think the Vikings would be a team that's still potentially in the hunt. the Browns. I would certainly think that the Buccaneers and a couple of these teams still with significant cap space in particular, that's really important in this Trent Williams situation. You know, Cleveland's got a shitload of cap space. The Buccaneers still have enough cap space if they were to make a move or two. The Jets have enough cap space. Who were the other teams? Well, the Chargers ended up making that one deal. Buffalo still has cap space. Miami does if Miami thinks that they're close and Trent Williams is going to be a factor on a winning team at 31 years old. I think McClellan told me yesterday, Tommy,

bottom line is Trent Williams is better than anybody in this draft at the position, even at his age, and 31 he should still have multiple pro bowl years left in his career. He also, by the way, suggested that if you were to play for the Redskins next year, it wouldn't be a disruption at all, that he is as respected and liked by everybody in that locker room as any player he's seen in recent years. I tend to agree with that. Well, that's the guy who doesn't understand media. And that's obvious he doesn't understand media, I'd say. Yeah, well, I mean, again, is media a disruption to the players? It's, yeah, I think, more than ever. I think that can be true, but how long are the questions about Trent

Williams going to last if he's playing for him? Well, what if he's not playing for him? What if he's on the injured list half the time? That's, well, if he's on the injured list, then it's, the people are not paying attention anymore. Why would you be asking about him if he's on the injured list? What if his presence on the injured list is the controversy?

What if there's some question as to whether or not he's really injured or not? What if he's on the end, telling people he's injured? because he doesn't want to play this last year for a 20-80. How long does that story last? After you ask the players one day about the controversy with him on the injured list, are you asking about that every day with games going on? I think you're asking about it throughout the season.

Yeah. If your quarterback is getting killed, you're asking about it. Well, maybe, but the bottom line is if somehow he were to, you know, weasel his way onto the injured list, list and be able to collect the $12 million, which, by the way, he should have done last year when he had a legitimate reason to be on the injured list. I mean, you talk about bad advice from Vince Taylor. He really screwed his client last year.

It's really amazing how much that was mismanaged by the agent when you think about it. But I just don't agree with you. I think you're exaggerating the disruption from the media, how much disruption it would create. I think the bigger disruption would be a piece. If it's a media controversy, it's a controversy. No, that's not true. Yes, it is. No, it isn't.

When you talk to players and you talk to players and I've talked to players, a lot of times they'll say all of that stuff that you guys were spending so much time with, we didn't even know what's going on and we wasn't even addressed. However, their coaches are answering questions about it every day. That's what I'm saying. How many days in a row? would Trent Williams, if he comes back and plays, and the players like him and he's playing, which, by the way, he needs to do, for how many days are they, is the Trent Williams

conversation from the media? Why did he need to do that? He didn't play last year, and teams are jumping at the chance to get him. Well, they're not jumping at the chance to get him. Who says they're jumping at the chance to get him? Well, Cleveland is. Miami probably is. Okay, you've got the ex-general manager of the Redskins saying he'd be better and anybody picked in a draft.

But nobody is jumping to get him right now. No one's offering the deal and nobody's offered the Redskins enough. Because they know the Redskins don't have any leverage. I think they should be jumping. The Redskins have a lot of leverage. He's under contract. They don't have to trade him. That's right.

They don't have to trade him. They could pay him and get nothing. out of him again this time. This time they'd have to pay him to get nothing out of them. If they pay him and get nothing out of him, how does that help his situation next year when he wants to get a big contract?

Like everybody who plays in Washington. Nobody, everybody remembers. If you play for the Redskins, if you work for the Redskins, it's considered like something that doesn't exist around the rest of the league. It doesn't impact

the perception of you around the rest of the league. I think if Trent Williams took two consecutive years off of football, I think that the chance of him getting the kind of deal he wants as a free agent next year, and by the way, the Redskins would have the ability to franchise tag him if they wanted to, to keep them from getting that, I think would be diminished. I think he's got a chance right now after one year, and by the way, the dysfunction of the organization that he was working for last year,

to get the deal this year, not that. the deal that, you know, initially it was reported he wanted, but a legitimate, you know, extension, you know, in this 16, 17 million dollar a year range. And, but if he were to hold out for a second straight year, I don't think that the, that it would be nearly the appetite for him a year from now after two years off would be nearly the same. I think he, I think he's, I think if somebody doesn't trade for him and, then he's going to have to play for the Redskins next year. He hasn't played a full season when he wants to play in how many years.

It's been a while. That's when he wants to play. And that's why he's got to play, because it's been a while since he's proved that he can really, you know, do it. And two years off and the decisions that would sort of go hand in hand with taking two decisions off, I think the audience is less next year. doesn't play than it is right now. It may be, but there'll be somebody willing to pay them. All right.

And by the way, I don't know how many, I mean, you say you don't like fantasy football. I don't know what kind of world you live in after what you've seen happen, particularly with this franchise. Yeah. That if you don't think that if it's a media issue, it's an issue. I don't care what the players say. You've seen the evidence. It's always an issue. I think last year it certainly became an issue.

I think if he were, let me be clear. Let me be clear about what I'm saying. Let me be clear about what I'm saying. Let me be clear about what I'm saying with respect to Trent, though, because this is what's prompting your response. I think if the Redskins don't get what they want, they shouldn't trade him, and they should say to him,

we want you to play for us this year. And maybe the quid pro quo is we won't franchise you next year, but come in, we have a need for a left tackle, you have a need to play and get paid, to position yourself next year for getting a big deal. I think if that were to happen, it wouldn't be a huge disruption because he's well liked by the players

and he's very well respected by the players. I think the bigger issue would be if he were an asshole and he was stirring up trouble during the course of the year, and that became the disruption more than the media asking about how it's going or trying to stir up trouble. I think that that's my position, that if he were to play next year for the Redskins, it wouldn't be the disruption that you think it would be.

It would be an ongoing story every week. I don't think so. It would be a huge disruption. Like these things have always been. been with this franchise. Always. I'm waiting for you to present the situation where it hasn't been.

Where an ongoing issue has not been a disruption for this team. Well, see, you can't speak specifically in some of these situations and I can, okay, because I'm going to use my good friend Chris

Kooley as a source on this. Coley said that during the whole RG3 controversy, 12, etc. That they, when everybody's asking about it all in for week one, it was not nearly the disruption once they were inside the walls in Ashburn preparing for their next opponent or preparing for training camp that we thought it was. He said all of those things, all of those big conversations, you know,

that were happening on sports talk radio or in columns or on blogs or between fans, were never, ever what we thought they were inside that locker room. It only consumed the coach's job. What do you mean? All it did that year was basically the next year, 2013, consume the coach's job. Basically, he had to manage the RG3 story, Mike Shanahan did. I agree with you on that.

that the head coach of the organization was definitely had to spend too much time on that versus football. And I would agree with you that a guy like Gruden had to spend too much time on the Cousins situation. But I don't know that it's an internal disruptive thing in the locker room. And I don't think that the Trent Williams thing equals the Cousins thing or the RG3 thing. again, there's more to football than the locker room. The world out there is beyond the locker room. Yeah. And the last people I would think that would be smart enough to know it would be the players.

Okay. I'm done with this conversation. You wanted to have a conversation. First of all, before we get to this, you had asked me to watch the Lyle-Forman fight from 1976. I had never seen Ron Lyle

versus George Foreman. This is after Foreman had lost to Ali. It is at Caesar's Palace auditorium or something like that in 1976.

That fight rounds four and five are equivalent to Hagler-Herns the three-round fight. It is one of, I'd never watched it before. I had heard about it. And I think I told you that for whatever reason, recently, and it was,

I think the 35-year anniversary of Hagler and Hearns, and I was watching Stephen A. and Kellerman on their show talk about, you know, great fights, and they were talking about the Hagler-Herns fight, which to me, that three-round fight is unmatchable in terms of just actions start to finish. But my God, Foreman Lyle, all five rounds are great. The fourth and fifth rounds are two of the greatest heavyweight rounds in history. And I would imagine that they are ranked that way, too, right? I would think so. I mean, you can't take your eyes off what's going on.

I mean, situations where Foreman was basically almost lost a fight a couple of times. He was knocked down twice. Within minutes, within seconds of winning the fight. He had just been knocked down. I mean, it's just, it was a stunning performance. and again, I recommend to everybody. Google, it's all there on YouTube, Foreman Lyle.

I mean, it's definitely something that you haven't seen before. I mean, I'm looking up a list right now for the greatest heavyweight fights. Oh, here it is. Number seven. On a list put together, this looks like a New York Times list of the greatest bouts of the last 100 years heavyweight fights. Norman Liles, the seventh greatest fight in history. Which is pretty amazing, considering it's a non-title fight.

Exactly. Yeah, thrill in Manila's number one. Frazier Ali 1 is number 2. Marciano, Jersey Joe Walcott's 3. Dempsey, Louis Furpo is 4. 5 is Holmes, Norton, and 78, which was a great fight. Bo Holyfield 92 is six That's the first one, yeah

That's the first one That's not the fan man fight And then Foreman Lyle is seven And that fight, oh my God For those of you that have never seen that fight It's there on YouTube Just look it up on YouTube It's amazing how many times

You thought Foreman was completely done Or Lyle was completely done And it was turned around and then it looked like the other guy was done 30 seconds later. What a great fight. Yeah. Yeah, and like I said, I mean, that list, every fight you mentioned except Form and Lyle was a heavyweight title fight. Every one of those other fights.

Well, that's the list. It's the greatest heavyweight fights of all time. Yeah, I know that. But that's a really wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. That it would make. And that's a pretty good list.

I can't argue with that list. That's pretty good. Yeah, I mean, I don't know a lot of those fights. but you did watch a bunch, like you texted me on Friday and said that there was boxing all day on Saturday. I mean, I've just seen, like, I've watched the thrill in Manila. I've watched the Forman Ali fight. I've watched so many of these fights over the years on YouTube that I know that they had them all day long, but it's the same thing that you're getting on YouTube.

Yeah, well, they had a couple of Day La Hoya fights. that De La Jollaoyah, Trinidad, which was a very controversial fight, Trinidad wound up winning a decision, even though Oscar had probably won the fight. That De La Javez, I covered both of those, where basically he made Chavez's nose explode. He broke it so bad with one punch from De La Jolla Jolla. They had Foreman, they had Holofield Foreman. They had Tyson Spinks. It was a great day.

I just, I just soaked it in. And the thing was, for the Ollie Fraser 1 and 3, I told you this before, I spent hours and hours talking to Eddie Futch, who was Joe Fraser's trainer, and probably the greatest trainer in history of boxing. And I transcribed all those interviews. So I'm doing play-by-play on Twitter about what Eddie Futch was saying, what Eddie Futch told me what was happening during both of those fights. Like the strategy he had used for Joe in the first fight with Ali. And I'm like trans-I'm pleading out chunks of transcribed notes from those interviews. And if you're watching the fight, you can see exactly what Eddie Futch was saying taken place.

like he had devised the plan for Joe to go into a lower crouch than normal for the first fight. And you see him bob really low. Yeah. Much lower than he normally did because he always bobbed a lot. But he bobbed lower. And Eddie had come up with the idea that the only time you can hit Ali is when he's puncing. That's the only time you could hit him. And when he threw the upper cut, he didn't bend his knee.

he didn't bend down to throw it, he threw it standing up, which left him open for the left hook. And so, like they had told Joe, he looked for that uppercut. He throws that uppercut. You let go with the left hook. And in the 11th round, when he almost knocked Ali out, that's what happened.

Ali had thrown at uppercut, and Fraser landed the left hook. And the same thing when he knocked him down in the 15th round. The 15th round was the first fight. 11th round was the thrill of Manila. No, the 11th round, in the first fight, he almost knocked Ali out. Ali had to go against the rope. Oh, right, but he knocked.

But Ali got knocked down. It was, wasn't it the first time in his career in the 15th round of the first fight? No, he had been knocked down by Henry Cooper. Oh, right, Henry Cooper. He had been knocked down a couple of times before he became. That was like the fourth time he had been knocked down. He had been knocked down. I forget in other fights before that.

before he became champion. The Eddie Futch thing that you've got the notes on, you know, I've watched that thrill in Manila so many times. It is just incredible to watch these two men go at it. And, you know, Ali famously said this was, you know, the closest thing he had ever felt to dying. And at multiple times during that fight, he almost hung it up and quit.

You know, the 14th round, which was a brutal round, round. Both fighters, you know, brutal round for both fighters. You know, Futch basically threw in the towel at the end of the 14th. Frazier couldn't see essentially out of one of his eyes, correct me if I'm wrong. But it was sort of an, in the moment, Tommy, wasn't it a bit of a surprise ending? Because Ali was just as brutalized after that 14th round as Frazier was. Well, supposedly the story goes that one of Joe's uh,

somebody, one of the fighters from Joe's camp was sitting near Ali's corner. And, uh, he heard Ali tell them to take the gloves off. Yeah, right. That he was done.

And he was trying to signal to tell Joe's corner to try to tell Eddie that, you know, that Ali's going to quit. Ali's going to quit. But that signal never got there in time. Uh, and Eddie butt through in the towel because he worried about Joe Fraser, like he said,

turning into a vet. vegetable at that point because he couldn't see out of either eye. I mean, basically, his eyes were swollen so shut that he couldn't see out of either eye. And in that third fight, which Fraser had been winning early on, Eddie told me that the 10th round, things had changed. That's when one of Fraser's eyes had swelled over. So dramatically, he couldn't see Ali's right hand coming anymore. and Eddie said he had to back Fraser up about six inches from Ali not fight so close and stand him up a little bit more

and then Ali started land in the right hand and that's when the fight changed. But Ali was ready to quit in the 10th round. Eddie told me that it was Antelow Dundee that forced him to stay in the fight. Ali wanted to quit in the 10th. Incredible. Yeah, I mean, we didn't, you know, what started this conversation last week was I said to you, we didn't do anything on the 35-year anniversary of Hagler-Herns, which there was a bunch of stuff done last week. I mean, any of these anniversaries with no live sports going on are getting a ton of attention. But I showed one of my boys over the weekend, the Hagler-Herns fight. He had never seen it.

He was just blown away. And, you know, the one thing, I loved, I loved that era of the 80s with Leonard, with Duran, with Hearns, with Hagler, with, you know, Benitez, with, you know, all of the, you know, all the middleweight guys, Welter weights, middle weights, et cetera. I loved that era of boxing. It was so spectacular. And, you know, and even, you know, the lightweights with Argueo and Pryor and, and, and, and, and, you know, and even, you know, the lightweights with Argueo and prior. that whole era of really Tyson's starting his career you know in in the mid 80s essentially and becoming dominant and he was becoming a story too but the best fights of that decade were the fights with the the the welterweight through middleweight division the guys that I mentioned that Hagler

Oh yeah that Hagler-Herns fight is so spectacular and I loved Hagler I thought Hagler I think Hagler is one of the greatest fighters I've ever seen and I still think to this day that he beat Leonard, but whatever, that's beside the point. But Hearns was really, I think Tommy almost incredibly underrated. I know he's a Hall of Fame boxer and a four or five-time champion in multiple weight classes, but he was such a great boxer leading up to that first Leonard fight, which after showing my son Hagler-Herns, I showed him Leonard Hurons won at Caesar's Palace in 81, where the boxer turned into the puncher and the puncher turned into the boxer. It was a remarkable turnaround based on

expectations. Hearns was such an, I think, an underrated boxer throughout his career. Had, you knocked everybody out, knocked everybody out early and then got to the Leonard fight and was winning the fight on every scorecard. And Leonard summoned up, you know, incredible energy and fight and ended up T. K. O.ing Hearns in the 14th round after him, after knocking him through the ropes in the 13th at the end of the 13th. But Hearns was just as good as all of them during that era. Don't you think or not? Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. And he was a freak of nature. Oh, yeah. He was a six-foot-one welterweight. Right. I mean, he was really remarkably tall for a welterweight at that point. It had tremendous power. And look, he had a great trainer, Emmanuel Stewart.

Right. that helped him out a lot. But yeah, he was every bit as great as any of those fighters. Remember, he demolished Duran. That knockout's a brutal second round. Yeah. You know, Duran, too, I don't know where Duran ranks on the list of the all-time greatest fighters. He's way up there, right?

Well, he's considered the greatest lightweight of all time. Durran's first fight against Leonard is so spectacular, too, the one in Montreal. And just Duran, he hated Leonard so much. And he just, that was Duran. I don't know if it was Duran at his best, but that's such a great fight. And of course, you know, Duran gets knocked out by By Herns. But Duran later, Tommy, ended up winning the title against who was the fighter that he ended up coming back and winning?

Well, he won two other fights. First of all, he beat Davy Moore. Davy Moore. But he also beat around Barclay. Or Rand Barclay, right. For the middleweight title. For the super middleweight title. And that's after getting demolished by Hearns.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. His career seemed to be over. Well, his career seems to be over after the No Mock fight. Right. And like I said, he beat Davey Moore to win a 154-pound title. And then he came back and beat around Barclay.

Tremendous fight he put up against Barclay, who was a great fighter. Well, he beat Benitez, too, after the No-Moss fight, I'm pretty sure. I don't know if he did or not. Hold on. But he ended up fighting, like Leonard did, much beyond, way beyond when he should have been fighting. I mean, Duran was fighting, like Leonard's biggest mistake was fighting Camacho. I mean, that was sad, actually. But Duran...

I covered that fight. Duran did the same thing. He fought Camacho late, you know. Here's Duran's career. He beat Davy Moore and then, actually, so he knocked out Pupino-Quavis after the Leonard-N-Moss fight. And yeah, he beat Benitez. Benitez was two fights after the no-moss fight. He beat Benitez for the Super, for the WBC Super Welterweight title. Okay.

No, my fault, lost to Benitez. I remember he fought Benitez. He lost to Benitez. And then finally won a title back by beating Davy Moore. Listen, I saw Durant's fight in Miami in 19, 1990. I saw him fight in Miami. And he fought, you know, remember William Joppy, local fighter? He was one of the middleweight champions in the 90s.

He fought Durant. So, yeah, Durant fought a long time. Durant's last fight was 2001 against Camacho. 21 years after he first fought Leonard. He fought Camacho for the first time in 97. fought lost, fought Camacho again in 2001. By the way, one of the Duran fights that we forget about is he took Hagler the distance, lost. He fought a great fight against Hagler.

And that really was, I mean, from lightweight all the way up to middleweight, you know, for Duran. And then it was the next fight where he was knocked senseless by Hearns in two rounds. Yeah, that was the fight. The Hagler fight was Ray Leonard did the analysis on TV. Right. And after the fight, Duran leaned over the rope and told Ray, you can beat this guy. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know, Hagler was a great fighter.

Great fighter. And that was it. When he lost the Leonard, that was it. He, like, moved to Italy, and we never heard from him again. Well, he wanted a rematch, and Ray wouldn't give him a rematch right away. and then he quit. And then years later, Ray wanted to fight him again, and, you know, Hagler didn't want any part of it. All right.

Two more things to get to, and then that's it for the day. You wanted to have a conversation about events that you went to where you witnessed a milestone. I know, but, I mean, that's not that big. I wanted to talk about it for a while. Well, let's do it. Okay. Okay.

The reason this came to mind was last week, and it was the 20th anniversary of Cal Ripkin's 3,000 pit. And, you know, Cal is on social media now, and people were talking about it. And I had been there. I was in Minnesota covering it at the time when he got his 3,000 pit. And it just reminded me of all the milestones. Plus, it reminds me of a wild weekend in Minneapolis. where, you know, he started in Can't, I started following him in Kansas City, the trip, the series before that, and he didn't get a hit there.

And then finally in Minneapolis at the Metrodome was where he got the hit. But, I mean, I've seen Eddie Murray get its 500th home run. I was in the stand as a spectator for that with my two sons. It was a rain-delayed game. and I think Eddie hit his 500 home run like 1 o'clock in the morning or something like that. I was there. I was obviously I was there for Cal's, you know, 213 first game. And football-wise, you and I share one, I was there.

I was there the night art monks set the all-time record for past receptions against Denver at RFK. Yeah, I was there for that one, that Monday night game against Denver, which was in 92, because it was the year after they won the Super Bowl. And I was also there for the game in which Monks set the single season record for receptions. It was the final game of the 84 season against the Cardinals, and that game was actually for the NFC East regular season division title. It was the Cardinals with Neil Lomax and Roy Garland. green against those Redskins who had won the Super Bowl in 82, had been to the Super Bowl

in 83, and lost to the Raiders. And then in the 84 season, had to beat the Cardinals to win the division, which they did in a very close game. And during that game, Monks set the single season record for receptions with 106, Tommy. Okay, I looked this up before the show, just to give you an idea of what's happening. happened here over the last 35 years of professional football. Monks 106 receptions in 1984, which was then an NFL record, now ranks 60th all-time in receptions in a season.

60th. Like, it's way down the list. Michael Thomas set the record last year with 149 catches. He broke Marvin Harrison's record of 143, which came in two. 2002. But, you know, there have been 59 other NFL seasons. And you've had the same number of games, 16. It's not like you've increased the number of games. But, yeah, I was there for that Art Monk game and was there for the Monday night game. Those would be, I think those are the only two I can think of. Have you ever, you know, all the years I covered baseball, I only saw one-mill hitter,

and that was Scherzer's second no-hitter. Yeah, I've never seen a no-hitter-wise. It was almost a perfect game. And actually, I saw Randy Johnson's 300th career win. It happened at Nat Park in a game. I think that had been a rain-postpone game, and then they played it again the next night under more miserable weather. And there were only about 16,000 people in the sand.

when Randy Johnson won his 300th career game, and he wanted at Natch Park. So I remember seeing that as well. And as a little kid on TV, I remember watching Mickey Mantle hit his 500 home run. I can remember that vividly. Where did he hit it?

He hit it at Yankee Stadium. And there weren't many people in the stands. I remember Phil Rizzuto did the call, and he yelled, this is it. I remember that part of it. You know, the cow, I just want to, real quick, the Cal 3,000 hit game. That happened in Minneapolis. I was staying at the Marriott, downtown Marriott, and for some reason, once in a while you get lucky.

I was a platinum member, so they treated me good. But they gave me a two-story penthouse on the top of the hotel. Two floors was my room. You had to walk up the steps to get to the bedroom. Two floors? Yes. Two-story pent out I had. For a normal rate.

So, on a Friday, Cal broke the record on a Saturday night. On a Friday night, I was pretty wound up. So I said, let's, we went out drinking after the game. But the cutoff, they closed the bars down, at 1 o'clock in the morning in Minneapolis. Which seems absurd to me. So a quarter to one from the host from the bar, I call the hotel and I order two cases of beer in room service and three bottles of wine.

I was half in a bag already. Wait, wait a minute. Two cases in three bottles, how many of you were there? That's room service, too. You can imagine that there's a bill on that. So a bunch of us go back to the room, a bunch of baseball writers, and we're having a party, and people hear about it, and they start coming in off the street up to my penthouse,

and they're wandering in and out. And all of a sudden some Orioles come up, some players come up, and start drinking with us, including Siddi Pons, who was a wild man picture for the Orioles. And Sidney Ponson that night told us how his mother had put a gun to his head one time and threatened to kill him. Oh, my God. And Ponson dared her to go ahead and do it. He didn't clean the dishes?

I don't know what a – Sidney Ponson was a lunatic, a very scary individual. But a hell of a pitcher who wasted a lot of talent. But, yeah, that night – that's the one thing I remember from that party, other than a hefty room service bill that I made other people contribute to. Yeah, I'm sure. The pain. But, yeah, Sidney Ponsone telling us that his mom put a gun to his head and threatened to kill him. Yeah, that's a tough, that's tough love.

So that's why the Cal 3,000 hits stands out for me. Not for anything Cal did. Right. Well, it would have been fun to have been hanging out with you in Minneapolis. And, by the way, as a perfect segue, I was in Chicago when Michael Jordan announced his retirement the first time to go play baseball. I covered that press conference in Chicago because it was in the middle of the 93 American League championship series between the White Sox and the Blue Jays.

So I was there for that, and I was there when Jordan came back to play for The Wizards. I covered his first exhibition game in Detroit and then his first regular season game in New York against the next, which happened at the same time, I think it happened at the same time George W. Bush throughout the first pitch at the Yankees World Series that year in 2001. I think that happened on the night that Jordan started his first game for the Wizards. Oh, really?

I didn't know that that was the same night. Yeah, I think it was the same night. Well, it makes sense. It would have been October. Yeah. Did you watch the last dance Sunday night? Yes, I did. And? Yes, I did.

I enjoyed it. I didn't. I didn't have to change my pants after watching it like half the people did who watched it, you know? I mean, I wasn't orgasmic over it, but I enjoyed it. You know, what about you? Yeah, I loved it. I mean, I don't know that I had to change my pants. You know, there's been a lot of changing in the last month and a half, just, you know,

and a lot of showering, by the way, over the last month and a half. But, no, I really thought it was incredibly well done. As much of an NBA fan as I am, and I loved those years, not as much as I love the 80s. I think you asked me last week what my favorite decade was. It was definitely the 80s. But there definitely were things in there that I learned. I had no idea, really. I didn't really know the influence that Jerry Krause had.

I didn't realize how, you know, I think I don't remember having the reaction then that I have now, which is, what the fuck were they doing? I mean, they had won six, five titles in seven years, and they were thinking about breaking it up after two more, you know, two in a row. And then they won six in eight years. Like, why wouldn't you keep, you know, doing everything you can to continue that? It doesn't make any sense, you know. It does not make sense. And I, and I guess I don't necessarily maybe we just all were resigned to, oh, Phil's going to retire, Michael's going to retire, and, you know, it's all over. It's, you know, three in a row for the second time, rather than saying, this guy Krauss in Reinstor, what are they doing? Why would, why would Kraus want to trade

Scotty Pippen? Why would he want a new coach other than Phil Jackson? Why would he want Tim Floyd? They've won, I mean, this is a dynasty. You let a dynasty play itself out. you know, especially when Jordan was only 34 and Pippin was 32. Didn't make any sense. Yeah, basically, you didn't let somebody beat you. You beat yourself. And the other thing, too, Tommy, is really, you know, and I remembered Pippin in the deal he signed vaguely.

But a better organization. And look, you know, Krauss gets some credit from guys like Kerr and others about putting together a team around Michael. that, you know, was good. And he gets some credit for, you know, being a decent general manager, who, by the way, only had to ask for the job to get it. Hey, I'd like to be the general manager of your basketball team. Okay.

It's your job. But the, but the, the, the, he had way too much, he'd way too much influence over it. And to me, Reinsdorf deferred too much. Like it was his team. I sort of blame him more than I blame credit. I also didn't like, I guess part of me was like Phil Jackson's telling the story of the Pippin berating and belittling of Kraus during that entire year, the 97-98 year. And, you know, Klein's telling stories and others are telling stories.

Like, Phil Jackson's the coach of that team. You know, stop him. Don't let him do that. Yeah. But he couldn't, he didn't like Krause. Bill couldn't stand Krauss either. Yeah. I mean, you know, so I certainly understand that.

And Reinsorff's love, first love was always the baseball team. Right. And he grew up in Brooklyn with the Dodgers. You know, so his first love was always the White Sox, not the Bull. So I certainly understand. And by the way, you know, I guess this is heresy. I mean, Scotty Pippin was a great player, okay? I know what you're going to say.

He's not one of the greatest players of all time. And, you know, let's just stop it here, okay? I mean, you know, it's just absurd. So it's funny that you say that, because that's not what I thought you were going to say. I thought you were going to focus in on this is the, greatest duo in the history of the NBA. Oh, yeah. Which is really actually, that's the part.

I got into this conversation with my son, because my son said to me, so, you know, because he watched it yesterday and he said, so you're going to tell me that Shaq and Kobe's not the best duo or that it's like not debatable? And I'm like, not just Shaq and Kobe, but you may have heard of Kareem and Magic, you know, Elgin and Jerry, Cousie and Russell, you know, There have been incredible dynamic duos over the years. And my personal feeling is that those Bulls teams are great. Don't get me wrong.

But they were not as good as the Lakers and Celtics of the 80s. I agree. To me, the Lakers and Celtics played in an era where, you know, they were playing each other in the finals. They weren't playing the likes of Phoenix in Utah and Seattle and Portland. And yes, the Bulls won that first title from the Lakers, but that was not a Kareem Lakers team in 91. And not to mention the fact that, you know, in the East,

the Celtics or the Sixers had to get through each other. I think the Celtics and Lakers teams of the 80s were better than the Bulls teams of the 90s. Now, on your comment that Pippin's not one of the greatest players of all time, in my view, he is definitely, he's not in that conversation that we have about the non-centers that starts for me, Magic and Michael, and then you get to, you know, Bird and Kobe and LeBron and Oscar and for you, Dr. Jay and whatever. He's not in that conversation, but whatever the next tier down is, he's in that tier. Okay. He was a great, Tommy, he, he was one of the great combined, you know, offensive and defensive players of all time. He was a great defender.

great defender. I'll grant you that, but he's not. I'll tell you what, he couldn't carry a team. Well, he didn't when Jordan was out. No. You know? No, he couldn't carry a team. But, you know, and I actually got sidetracked from this thought.

It was really short-sighted by Reinsdorf, you know, in particular, not to tear up Pippin's deal and give him a new deal. You know, one of the things that they had to know, and you're watching this, is Scotty Pippen was a great player and a great teammate, you know, and didn't mind. By the way, keep in mind, as great as he was, he was fine being, you know, Michael's Robin. You know, Batman's Robin. He was fine with that. Like, you really had to be short-sighted, you know, to live with the, well, we don't renegotiate contracts.

Well, your guy who's now won five titles as part of one of the great dynasties and one of the greatest combos in history is the 122nd highest paid player in the NBA and the sixth highest paid player on your team. Yeah, because he's not only great, but has greatness left in him. And by the way, has been a great ambassador for your team. you tear up his deal and you give him a new one, period. Stupid, short-sighted. I think so, too. And that's where he was too deferential to Krause. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that falls on Reinsorpe. I agree with you. I mean, you keep that thing going until somebody beats you. I mean, I know people worry about, you know, getting rid of players a year too early rather than a year too late. But you were in a unique situation where you won five NBA championships with this team. I mean, that doesn't happen.

You keep that going as long as you can. And after this... And then if it all collapses, and you have to rebuild and start from scratch, look what you've done. Yeah. Well, yeah, he was only 32. Pippin was 32, Jordan was 34.

And yeah, I mean, the whole notion of, well, we're thinking ahead and we want to, you know, we don't want to be too late on this. That's with a team that's been to the playoffs for six years in a row and gotten to one finals. Not a team that is one of the all-time dynasties in the history of the game. It's really stupid. Two other quick points. I really love, I remember Bobby Knight in the way he spoke about Jordan. I went back and found the longer version of that soundbite, played it yesterday on the show. It was very out of character for Bobby Knight to praise a player in the way that he praised Michael,

basically saying he's the greatest combination of everything I've ever seen in a player. And by the way, was, you know, all over the fact that Jordan was the most competitive player he had ever coached. And I bring it up because, look, I remember those years very well. You know, the context is that Jordan wasn't going to be Michael Jordan. He was going to be a highlight reel because of his incredible leaping ability and dunking ability in the same way to Dominique Wilkins was nobody, including Dean Smith, thought he was going to turn out to be the greatest player in the history of the game.

That's why he was picked third, by the way. And I thought it was really like, you know, I went back and listened to the entire Bobby Knight soundbite after those Olympics and him talking about Jordan. He knew. Bobby Knight knew. You know, like, Tommy, I remember those days, you know, it was Elijah Juan, Sam Bowie, big mistake, obviously, and then Jordan. And people thought Jordan had a chance to be a really great player and they were excited. and I was a young person excited to see Jordan as a pro, you know, and unleashed to a certain degree, but nobody thought he was going to turn into the greatest player ever. Michael Jordan was an inconsistent jump shooter at North Carolina. He became one of the greatest mid-range jump shooters of all time, then turned himself

in the days of starting to shoot more threes, a great three-point shooter. He wasn't that at North Carolina. No, he wasn't. No, you're right. What, did that quote, that Bobby Knight that you're talking about? I mean, there was something that came up during the show. I thought that was great. When he was talking to the Portland GM at the time.

Yeah. And, you know, the guy said, well, we need a center. Yeah. We can't draft him. We need a center. And then Bobby said, we'll play him at center. Yeah. Well, I mean, Bobby Knight, after going through all of the, you know, the best,

the best this, the best that, the best this, just flat out said, it makes him the best basketball player that I've ever seen play or coach. And he coached him in the Olympics. The other thing, too, just back to, you know, it's sort of what we've learned over the years here, and maybe more so in recent years than back then, because obviously there were teams. Look, the bullets won a title.

The Seattle Supersonics won a title without having, obviously one of the best three players or best five players in the league on their team. I think you could argue that Hayes was. But even in 79, he's towards the end of his career, as is unselled. But anyway, you go back through the last 30 years of the NBA. You basically, if you didn't, if you, there's one example and only one example of a team winning a title without an obvious top five player on. the roster. And that is the Pistons of 2004 that upset the Lakers. That Pistons team had Chauncey

Billups, had Rip Hamilton, had Ben Wallace, Rashid Wallace, not one player that you would say is one of the best five players in the league. Other than that, you cannot win an NBA title without having a top five player in the league on your roster. It's the sport where if you don't have the best of the best, you can't win the title, basically. That's why coaching and putting together a great roster, you know, and oh, by the way, you know, Beal and Wall, if we can get a third player, no, you're never going to win a title because neither one of those players is a top five player. Toronto couldn't get out of, you know, the Eastern Conference finals, and they add

one of the top two players, three players in the game, and Kauai Leonard, and they win a championship. Golden State, Cleveland, Miami, even the math. Mavericks team. In that particular year, Dirk was definitely a top five player in the game. Absolutely. Yes, he was. You know, it's the thing in sports in the NBA that's become an absolute given. You have to have one of the great players in the game or you can't win a title. So it's like if you don't have a top five player, you're competing to maybe get to the NBA finals or your conference finals. You can't possibly win a title.

Whereas in football and hockey and baseball, it's just not true. You could just have a really good all-around team without the best player in the game, and you could win a Super Bowl. You could win the World Series. You could win the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs. But anyway, the point is you had Michael fucking Jordan on your team, and you were ready to end it. It's the dumbest thing of all time.

Yep. Too smart for your own good. So dumb. I love this show. I can't wait for the Rodman episode and whatever follows that. I like it. I liked it a lot. I'll definitely make sure I watch all the episodes moving forward. And, you know, what I think would be interesting at some point would be, and they're not going to cover this in this, is Jordan in Washington, I think would be interesting. I wonder if it'll be, I don't know that it'll be. be any part of this. Well, it could be.

I don't know. I know. I mean, we got Jordan. I love the way they kept going back, you know, and then coming forward. And, you know, I mentioned this yesterday, I think, on the show. I loved the Jordan stuff at North Carolina. I mean, I remember all of that as an ACC guy. And, you know, some of those quotes, like he's playing high school basketball. And Roy Williams gets a call from the high school's athletic director. I think I might have something down here for you. And he invites him to the camp and he said, you know, we knew of him. And then at the end of the camp, we thought he was the best player in America.

He played the Capitol Classic was a star in that game. But wasn't the star in that game necessarily. And then James Worthy's quote about, you know, when Michael showed up, I was the best player on the team for two and a half weeks, basically. And then it was obvious. But, you know, Michael's freshman year, he has the game winner in the national championship game. But that team was Perkins and Worthy and Jimmy Black and Matt Doherty. And Michael just sort of, you know, was coming along. And he had the big shot in the finals, but it was a surprise because Jordan wasn't thought to be the best player on what turned out to be Dean Smith's, you know, first championship team.

Even though Dean, you know, they tell the story about how, and I've heard this story before, you know, Georgetown's in that zone. We're going to reverse the ball. And Mike, you're going to probably get it. Take the shot. We trust you. And he knocked it down. I enjoyed it. I wish we could binge it because there's nothing else to do until the next two episodes are on.

Although we've got the NFL draft to look forward to. All right. You got anything else? I got nothing else, boss. All right. This was a long show. Enjoy it. I'm back tomorrow with Cooley.

Tommy's back with me on draft day on Thursday. Have a good day.