The Kevin Sheehan Show - Skins' Schedule Shouldn't Matter To Haskins' Timeline

Episode Date: May 29, 2019

Kevin opens the show with Nats, Lakers, and why the Redskins' early-season schedule shouldn't matter when it comes to starting Dwayne Haskins' career in DC. He also talks Dan Snyder's "involvement" timeline as owner. Phil Chenier was a guest on the show to talk NBA Finals and more. Kevin closed with an Ali documentary recommendation. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right, I am here. Aaron is here. This show's presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com and tell them we told you to call. I have a recommendation, which I will give later in the show for a two-part documentary on HBO. I think it was HBO. recommendation later on. The Nats beat Atlanta last night. Stephen Strasbourg, another strong start. And even though Aaron the bullpen tried to give it away, it didn't this time. And the Nats were five-four winners in Atlanta, and they've won four out of their last five. So a little bit of momentum. There's still nine and a half back of Philadelphia who won last night, but they are playing a little bit better, and that Marlon series may have started them on a bit of a run here. What a Peace on the Lakers yesterday on ESPN.com.

You recommended that I read it because I had not read it before the show yesterday. I think it came out just before we started the show or maybe during the show. But the biggest takeaway more than any other, for me, is if you believe the various Lakers employees that were quoted anonymously in the story, this was in the ESPN.com story, the inside of what's gone on with the Lakers here the last two years. You may not be interested in the Lakers or the NBA, but I promise you that this is a very compelling read. But the most for me, the biggest takeaway, the thing that I won't forget from that story, is if you believe the Lakers employees who were quoted anonymously in that story, Magic Johnson is a very difficult person to work for, if not borderline abusive. I'm not going to spend a lot of time or any more time really talking about it right here on the podcast.

I just urge anybody that is a sports fan, certainly an NBA fan or a Magic Johnson fan, to read it. Just a very interesting story about one of the storied franchises in all of sports in the midst of its most dysfunctional era. The last few years have included, by the way, of this franchise's dysfunctional period, the last few years have included one of the franchise's all-time great players, if not its greatest. In my opinion, he is, Magic Johnson, and the franchise's all-time most popular player. I don't think that that is debatable. He has been, at least according to this story, a big part of the franchise's fall, into this dysfunctional losing abyss.

Read it if you get a chance. It's interesting. And, you know, Magic with the way he left the job at the end of the regular season, I'm a big Magic fan, and I said it in the moment. I didn't think it to be very professional the way he did it. Some of you just reached out to me and said, he's Magic Johnson. He can do whatever he wants. I still don't think that he handled his exit very professionally.

And then in that sit-down with Stephen A. Smith and Max Kellerman last week on first take, he really, really threw multiple members of the organization under the bus. Rob Polinka being the number one target for Magic last week. And I thought that Magic should be, you know, a high road guy. And that was a bit of a low road. So it's an interesting time, especially for people like me who love and have always loved Magic Johnson. A few things to get to here at the start, including one thing to clear up from yesterday's show. Let me mention, by the way, Phil Schneer is going to be on the show a little bit later on.

We will preview the NBA finals with Phil today. I think Phil's got a sharp opinion. I've always enjoyed my conversations with Phil. Tomorrow, Tim Legler will be on the show to preview the NBA finals. But a few things to start, including something to clean up from yesterday or clear up from yesterday. And it's about Lewis Riddick. On yesterday's show, we played a few of his sound bites from John Kimes' podcast. Some of the very positive things that he said about Dwayne Haskins,

but also he's warning about playing Haskins too quickly in the importance of being patient with Dwayne Haskins. And in the midst of that conversation, I said to Tommy, I said, look, Lewis Riddick isn't one of my go-to guys for analysis. I think he's great on TV. Scott's told me over and over again over the years what a great guy he is. Tony, Kornheiser has said the same thing to me. Scott and Tony are both very good friends. Scott, one of my oldest, closest friends.

And both would tell me if he's not a good guy. They would. They are, especially Tony. But Tony loves him. Scott loves him. So I know he's a great guy. In fact, I think we've had him, we haven't had him on the podcast, but I had him on the radio show a few times over the years.

And he was a great guest, really good guy. But what I said or what I meant to say yesterday, because whatever I did say seemed to bother a few of you, which is fine, is that when it comes to Lewis Riddick, I don't hang on every word of his as if it's gospel. I just don't. Doesn't mean he's not excellent on TV. Doesn't mean he's not a great guy. I've just found over the years that his opinion isn't the, you know, on that short list of opinions that I consider to be the sharpest. It's not the worst. It's just, in my opinion, not one that I'm desperate to consume. You know, there are former coaches, players, team execs that I really do perk up, you know, for when they are talking about especially favorite teams of mine, the Redskins or the Wizards or, you know, the Nats.

Kurchin's talking about the Nats. I'll listen to that. Buster Olney's talking about the Nats. I'll listen to that. Several coaches, current and former, are go-toes for me. players the players that are go-to for me are Cooley number one. I mean, yeah, he's a good friend of mine, obviously, but I really do consider Cooley's football opinion to be super sharp. Like as sharp as anybody I have ever interviewed, talk to, or listened to when it comes to just what he knows about football and the way he evaluates football, analyzes football. I just think his opinion is as sharp as anybody's.

I think Tony Romo is excellent. In terms of NFL guys in studio, I really like Nate Burleson. I've come to really respect his opinion. I like Randy Moss a lot. I like Steve Young. I like Matt Hasselbeck. I think he's good. You know, other sports, last night I'm listening,

because I mentioned Magic Johnson earlier, last night I'm listening to Doc Rivers, Magic Johnson, on with Stephen A and Mike Wilbon on an ESPN NBA finals preview. God, was that a good show. Doc Rivers and Magic talking ball for 30-plus minutes was awesome. And most of you know how I feel about Tim Legler. His opinion is as sharp as anyone's in any sport, in my opinion. Again, he'll be on the show tomorrow to preview the finals.

Lewis Riddick is fine. He just isn't one of those go-to. guys for me. That's all. I'm not hanging on every one of his words. He's a good guest on a show, engaging, smart, all of those things. You know, a lot of people have been pushing and talking him up for general manager jobs in the league for several years now. And it would appear, I mean, I don't know this for sure, it would appear that the NFL isn't head over heels over hiring Riddick for one of those positions, or maybe they have tried and he's turned them down. I don't know. You know, it's kind of like Eric Schaefer to a certain degree.

Eric Schaefer, who's been with the Redskins for 16 or 17 years now. I think it's that long. And everybody that knows Eric will always say the same thing about Eric. They're impressed. You know, I've been impressed with Eric at various times over his run, especially with some of the cat magic he's been able to pull off. But perhaps Eric is just a guy that when compared to a lot of other people in that organization, he looks great. He's a gem.

But have other teams come after him to give him more responsibility, a bigger title, more money? Maybe he has been offered a GM or a team president job. Maybe he has, and he just wants to work here or live here. That's possible. But we've never heard that other teams are beating down his door to hire him away from Washington. Personally, I would think that anyone that has worked in the Redskins organization, for that long, would have at some point, if they were super talented, at some point, they would have had interest in leaving for a better situation. But he's still here. I think that's telling. But again, there could be a lot to that story that I don't know, just as there could be a lot to the Riddick's story that I don't know. Anyway, netting it out, I guess I just didn't get as excited as some of you did about Lewis Riddick's opinion on Dwayne Haskins. But, To be fair, I'm probably not going to get overly excited about anybody in the media's opinion one way or the other about Dwayne Haskins, whether it's a perceived expert, you know, a perceived expert opinion or not.

I mean, don't we all know now, after all of these years of being NFL fans, how wrong the so-called experts are time and time again? and don't we know as NFL fans how often the so-called experts change their minds? And by the way, they have every right to change their minds. The more you see, the more information you gather, opinions change. That's fine. But when it comes to drafted players in particular, more than existing veteran players, media experts, whether they be just media people or former coaches or former scouts or former GMs or former players,

they get it wrong just as often as we get it wrong on the draft. Remember that, especially at the quarterback position. Think about this, and I've mentioned this in passing a couple of times, but I'll get into more detail on this now. Think about the first round list of quarterbacks that have been taken over the last 10 drafts before this particular draft in 2019. Stafford, Sanchez, Josh Freeman. That's one out of three in terms of one of the guys really turned out to be pretty good and the other two not. 2010, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow. I'd call that an O for two year on first round quarterbacks. 2011, Cam, then it was Gabbard, Locker, and Ponder. One for four on that draft in 2011, first round quarterbacks. 2012, Luck, Griffin, Tannehill, Weeden, one for four again.

Luck was the only big hit out of the four. 2013, just one first round quarterback. E.J. Manuel, how'd that turn out? 2014, Bortles, Mansell, Bridgewater. O for three. Now, Bridgewater may have another part to his career, but at this point, that's O for three. 2015 was Winston and Marriota 1-2. That's debatable. Some of you would say that's an 0-4-2 quarterback first-round draft. I personally have been a fan at various times of both.

So I'll split the difference and call it one out of two. I still believe that James Winston can be a really good NFL quarterback. There's just something about him that I like, and there's a lot that I don't like. Maybe Bruce Ariens will be the answer for him. 2016, Goff, Wentz, Paxton, Lynch. At this point, you would say that that's a two-for-three in the first round. 2017 is the aberration. Tribusky-Mahombs-Watson.

So far, that's three-for-three. It's the only draft leading up to the 2019 draft when it comes to first-round quarterbacks, 10 years of them, where you didn't have a miss or several misses. And then 2018 really is a too early. to tell at this point, Mayfield, Darnold, Alan, Rosen, Jackson. You know, Mayfield looks the part. I think Darnold looks the part.

I think Josh Allen looks pretty promising. And I have high hopes for Rosen, but we really can't tell as of yet. You really, you're talking about if you add it all up, you know, from 2009 through 2017, if you don't count last year, because it's way too early. from 2009 to 2017, it's nine out of 23,

39% hit rate on quarterbacks in the first round. And by the way, when I say hit rate, I'm not talking about, you know, definite franchise guys. Like out of the 30 quarterbacks drafted over the 10 years before this draft, 2009 through 2018 through last year, at this point, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz, maybe Wentz, Mahomes, Watson. Six out of 30 have turned out so far to be legitimate what you would call top 10 potential guys. True difference makers for their teams, 20% of those, one out of every five quarterbacks picked. From 2009 through 2018 were true difference-making home run quarterback picks.

And by the way, how many of those guys did the so-called experts claim when they were drafted? Oh, great pick. A lot more than one out of five. A lot more. So it really doesn't matter what anyone says about Dwayne Haskins right now. It doesn't matter what anybody says about Kyler Murray right now or Daniel Jones right now. There are a few opinions that I might take more seriously than others. But for the most part, I'll watch them myself.

I'll listen to the day-to-day comments living in sort of the day-to-day granular world of being a Redskins fan. I'll listen to the comments from coaches and teammates, and I'll form my own opinion based on all of that. What most are predicting now means nothing. Comments from all of these guys, Lewis Riddick, in particular, for guys like me are conversation starters. They lead you in a different direction for a conversation that is, sometimes doesn't have anything to do with the actual comments that they made or the person making them. They're good ways to get into a conversation without necessarily critiquing the comments or the commentator themselves. Like yesterday, I used the comments from Riddick on John Kimes' podcast about being patient with Haskins as a way to discuss with Tommy about what being patient with Haskins really means, about whether or not we think they will be patient.

and all of the ancillary discussion off of that. It's really interesting, though, about the former coaches and players and execs who are in the media and are considered to be expert opinions because, and I think, Aaron, you may feel the same way because you, you like me, are a sports gambler. But the truth is, and again, I think your view if you're not a sports better could be different than my view or maybe even Aaron's view. but I think those of you who, like Aaron and I, bet on sports and have bet on sports over a long period of time, realize that these so-called expert opinions aren't that expert when it really plays out. You know why?

Because it's really hard. The NFL in particular is really hard. It's so close. Teams are closer to each other in talent than in any other sport in the NFL. The difference between good teams and bad teams, often, more often than not, comes down to the things that you can't predict or are just not, or things that you're just not able to have information on. Injuries obviously are the biggest determinant, or certainly one of the biggest determinants of an NFL game or season. You can't predict those. No way to predict injuries.

The elusive chemistry thing, you know, that everybody talks about, oh, it's a great group. They've got a lot of chemistry between players and coaches and front office. Those are very difficult things to predict. But nonetheless, very important to results. The two things that I think we as fans more often than not can count on in terms of looking at, you know, something from afar, and then being able to predict a little bit,

is the quarterback who is, you know, as impactful a player in any sport on the final result of a game or a season. And the front office and the coaching staff. We can watch and we can document results and that leads us to a feel that we have on a team or an organization. You know, the Patriots, the Steelers, the Ravens, or coaches like Belichick and John Payton, Andy Reed, John Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, you know, those guys, you sort of have a feel for, you know, they're going to be ready. You know, they're going to be, you know, prepared. You know, that in the quarterback. I mean, there are a couple of other things, but those are the things that we sort of can count on.

By the way, on the coaches, sporting news, I missed this, but somebody sent it to me on Twitter, I think, yesterday. Sporting news ranked the NFL coaches one through 32. I don't know if you saw this, Aaron. Jay Gruden was 26th of the 32 coaches. I actually think Jay should be higher than that, but not much higher than, I don't know, 16, 17, 18. But again, it's an opinion. Another subject real quickly. It's a quick tweet that I wanted to read from Carl on Twitter. Kevin, you're nuts not to consider the schedule when it comes to the Haskins timeline for starting.

No way he should start until they get through that murray. murderous five games start to start the season. I said yesterday in my conversation with Tommy that if Haskins is even close to winning the job, he should start week one. I would not worry about the schedule. A couple of reasons why to answer Carl and anybody else that feels the same way. But it is a bit repetitive, but schedule strength is a perception, not a reality. All right, the 2019 schedules are ranked using last year's win-loss records. The Redskin Schedule, by the way, is a matter of, you know, win-loss records from a year ago, you know, using that, which is ridiculous, as criteria to determine strength of schedule for 2019. Do you know that the Redskin schedule

is the easiest in the NFL? The easiest. 32nd out of 32 teams. But using last year's records as criteria for determining the next season's strength of schedule is dumb, in my opinion. last year's records aren't an indicator at all of next year's records. They never are. The Redskin schedule, by the way, before the season started last year, was projected to be 14th. It turned out to be 21st based on the real records of the teams they faced in 2018. So they were about seven spots off. But how about this? Before last year, Green Bay's schedule was projected to be the hardest when the schedule came out in April of 2018. It ended up being the 26th most difficult. So from first in projection to 26th in reality, Detroit's last year was supposed to be the second toughest. It finished as the 24th toughest.

Houston's was projected to be the easiest. They almost got that one right because it finished 28th overall. But Cincinnati's schedule last year, was projected to be the third easiest, it finished as the third toughest based on the records of the teams they played, the actual records. I didn't need to give you any of those numbers. You probably had a sense to begin with that there's significant change year to year, just in the teams that make the postseason, it's usually a 50% or greater swing. So I say forget the schedule when determining when Haskins should play. It's a total guess on how hard or how easy the Redskins schedule will be, how hard or how easy it'll be, until we start to actually see the teams play.

I mean, I guess we can guess that New England's going to be pretty good, but you don't really know. You know, by the way, Tommy asked me about the starters, you know, in recent years and whether or not schedule was much of a factor. and I just went back and looked at a couple, and Josh Allen last year, who was the number seven pick overall, top 10 pick Josh Allen and Buffalo last year. He did not start the opener, all right, but he played in the opener and then started from there on out until he got hurt actually and then came back late in the year and started. But their schedule, Buffalo's schedule last year, started with Baltimore, the Chargers, and the Vikings. two of those games on the road. Those three teams on paper were very good defensive teams heading into 2018. But the Bills didn't blink on that.

They thought he was ready for it. He played. Now, part of the reason he played, to be fair, is that Nathan Peterman was the starter when the season began, but they had planned to get Josh Allen in there quickly and didn't care about the teams they were playing. Deshaun Watson pretty much started from, the jump, you know, his rookie season. You know who they played in week two of that year? They played

the Patriots. I'm sorry, in week three of that year, they played the Patriots in Foxborough. And by the way, it was a 36 to 33 shootout. Yeah, though he didn't start week one. He didn't start, Tom Savage started, but they had plans for Watson to play in that opener and eventually get him in there quickly. I just would not get hung up personally on the schedule. I just wouldn't, and I hope the team doesn't. I hope there isn't somebody like the owner saying, it's Philadelphia, Dallas, the Bears,

the Giants, and the Patriots. I don't want him to, you know, I don't want him to fail early. If he's ready, play him, period. If he's close to ready, or the competition with Keenham and or McCoy is close, play him. He's the future.

If you believe they, he was very competitive in the competition during training camp and it was close, you are insane not to play him from the beginning or to fear this schedule and use this schedule as a reason not to play him. That would be dumb. If I'm Jay Gruden, I understand there are two ways to look at this from his standpoint. We talked about both of them yesterday. One is he may just feel more confident in a sense.

an experienced guy to be ready to win games this year or not lose games as in game manager with a good defense and maybe a good running game and Gruden wants to win nine, ten games. But I agree with Cooley on this. I think Jay, if he really wants to be here long term, his best path to being here long term is to develop Haskins and to be Haskins coach. to, because Haskins has more job security moving forward in the short term than Jay Gruden does. So Jay Gruden should be trying to hook himself to Dwayne Haskins' wagon. I don't want that to be the perception. I don't want the owner to push that narrative out there.

I want the coach to be able to coach him and I want the coach to be able to make decisions. But Jay Gruden has to understand that beyond 2019, he only has to be able to, has one quarterback currently under contract, and that's Dwayne Haskins. And Dwayne Haskins is the guy that the franchise is expecting to start at some point this year, if not from the jump, and certainly in 2020. So Jay Gruden, his best path, if he's interested in a long-term future in Washington, would be for Dwayne Haskins to play this year, to play a lot this year, and to play well this year. Quick word about window nation.

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into their homes and it's always worked out. Harley, Aaron, Eric, they're the best. Call today 86690 Nation or go to windonation.com. That's 86690 Nation or windonation.com. All right, we'll get to Phil Schneer here in a few minutes. But back to yesterday again for a moment because several of you wanted Tom and I to talk about another quote from Lewis Riddick on the John Kine podcast.

And this one dealt with Dan Snyder and his thoughts on Dan Snyder is an owner now. Listen to what Riddick said to John. He does things much different now. He is not the everyday presence that he was before. He is not the guy who used to call me and ask me to come over to his office and talk about the roster and talk about moves and talk about strategy the same way he used to. He's not involved with it that way.

He has tried to evolve and entrust people in power that he's put in the place to make those decisions. I talked to him briefly before Philadelphia played with. Washington on Monday night just this past year and we were doing the Monday night broadcast on the field. He came up to me in and we actually started talking. And even in that brief conversation, I could tell he's a different person than he used to be. All right. So a lot of you, I didn't hear that one before the show started, but a lot of you asked why Tommy and I didn't talk about that particular quote. I don't think we did. I know we didn't play it. Maybe Tommy mentioned it during the show, but I don't think we did. And so look, it's a conversation starter. Another

you know, a good conversation starter. Because look, I'm not sure if Riddick was being sincere or not. I would assume that he was. I will take him for his word. You also have to consider that for a guy like Riddick, who as we've mentioned, already mentioned today, has been mentioned a lot when it comes to being, you know, a potential future NFL GM, you know, it may not be in his personal interest to criticize Dan Snyder.

But that aside, I'll take him at his word. But I think when we think about the subject of whether or not Dan is a different owner than he was, that discussion really brings in a timeline because it's changed. I mean, this is, I'm going to rip through this. This is my Dan Snyder ownership timeline and how he behaved in the moment as an owner. This is what I think it has been over the years. I may be wrong in spots, but I think I'm probably pretty close to what it's been. And I think a lot of people perhaps on the inside would verify a lot of what I'm about to say. But at the beginning of Dan Snyder's ownership, 1999 through 2003, all right? The first five years, he was immature, he was impulsory, he was impulsed. He was impulsed. He was impulsed. He was overly aggressive. He was a no-it-all.

And it turned out to be an utter disaster start to his ownership those first five years. He had no idea what he was doing. He didn't treat people who worked for him very well. He didn't treat his fan base very well. He was very involved in everything the organization did, and he didn't care much what the experienced football people that he had hired thought. In fact, he relished, I believe, shoving his power and authority down their throats as a young person in his early to mid-30s at that point. His first five years of owning the Redskins were the beginning of him tarnishing this important NFL brand.

There was one thing consistent about Dan Snyder's first five years as an owner. It came from everybody that talked about him, coaches, players, fans, media. And it was always the same quote, Dan Snyder wants to win and he'll spend whatever it takes. Remember those days? I mean, that was like a, that was the one compliment you could give him, the only compliment you could give him, but it was a compliment nonetheless that he wanted to win and would spend whatever it takes. The problem is that rarely wasn't followed up with, you know, he's also a really good owner and he's a good leader and he's a good decision maker and he's a willing delegator to people with much more expertise in football. And the reason it wasn't followed up with those things is because those things weren't true. The only thing that he had as sort of a something that you could compliment is he wasn't cheap as an owner.

you know, that was the first stretch of ownership. That's how he was as an owner for those first five years. Then came 2004 through 2007, the Joe Gibbs years. He made the move in 2004 that was brilliant in the moment. And I personally think it still looks good to this day. After the disaster of his first five years of ownership, firing Marty Schottenheimer after one year hiring Steve Spurrier, Um, it was, it was one person that could calm down what was at the time an angry fan base.

This was the first Snyder rock bottom moment. And the result was anger. It wasn't apathy like it is now. It was anger originally in 2003 at the end of Spurrier's second year. Fans had had it with Snyder. Um, he gave them, uh, you know, He had already begun the process of tarnishing what was such a winning, you know, storied brand in the league, in sports. But at the same time in 2004, he gave us, us being the fan base, the single biggest gift of hope that he could give. He hired the most beloved man in franchise history, Joe Jackson Gibbs.

He brought Joe back to coaching. And we all thought things would be okay. Dan said all the right things. He said the franchise is now in good hands with Joe, that he as a young owner had learned from his first five years. Joe had the reins now. And while Joe's four years didn't produce a Super Bowl or anything close to a Super Bowl,

there was a sense for the first time that there was an adult in charge. You know, the adult was Joe Gibbs. Now, Gibbs probably trusted Dan and Vinny a bit too much on the personnel side. The truth is Joe wasn't very good at personnel when he got involved in it. His first go-round in Washington, ultimately, you know, not having a first-rate GM to work with Gibbs limited the team's upside when he was there. I think that that's obvious. But while he was there, Dan took a back seat.

He did. Vinnie told us that. I've heard that before. Now, he didn't take a backseat on personnel necessarily working with Vinny. Joe gave them the opportunity to be involved in a lot of that. But Joe was in charge more than Dan was. Dan revered Joe. He struck gold by convincing Joe to come back to coaching. And it was a great thing for those four years. I mean, not great results. Better results in anybody else has had under Snyder, but it was probably to that point the least involved that Dan was in the day-to-day of the organization. Then came 2008 and 2009. Snyder reeling from Gibbs's retirement, which was a surprise retirement in many ways. The 2008, and really was probably a result of his grandson being ill, more than it even was about Sean Taylor's death in, and, in 2007. But if you recall, the 2008 coaching candidate pool wasn't very strong. And Jim Zorn went from a quarterback's coach to an OC to a head coach in a matter of days. And by the way, from the jump that was going to be a train wreck. Dan blamed Vinny for it. It became the second rock bottom moment.

This time it became clear that many in the fan base weren't just angry, that they were beginning to not care as much. You know, and those that still cared begged for the adults. You know, so he fired Vinny. He hired Bruce, who was perceived to be an adult, and then he hired Mike Shanahan, who was also perceived to be an adult.

And then came 2010 through 2014, because hiring Bruce was, as Cooley has said before, to me, that was Dan's attempt to become a different owner, or an owner similar to the owner, owner that he was with Gibbs, a better owner, who would rely on Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan. But he couldn't help himself when it came to his star players or star players on other teams. He wanted McNabb, the coach didn't, he dealt for McNabb. He wanted Griffin and then forged a relationship with RG3 and his family that made a very immature, very self-absorbed,

young man, the second most important person in the organization. And that, decision by the owner, that relationship between owner and quarterback, sabotaged two seasons. 2013 and 2014 were completely undermined by the owner, thrown away by the owner. That became rock bottom moment, I don't know, is that number three or number four? I've lost count. Then Bruce Allen's cluelessness to what the fan base thought of him in 2015, not realizing that the fan base was sort of lumping him into being a co-conspirator in the downfall of the franchise, you know, made dumbass comments like we're winning off the field.

So Dan's like, we can't, we've got to bring somebody else in. So they hired Scott McLuhan to give the fans, you know, something that they could sort of sink their teeth into, a season talent evaluator. He was sold to us as the team's, general manager. Because at that point, we realized Bruce wasn't a very good GM, and McLuhan was like this one-stop shop for roster creation and management and draft and free agency, but really what he was was just a glorified head scout. The draft was primarily his. He participated in other conversations about things like, you know, the quarterback, but he had personal demons and that would make it tough on him,

and on Dan and Bruce. But Dan liked Scott initially. And Bruce, you know, there was some insecurity there with Scott. Then came 2017 and 2018. Two seasons of injuries, yes, lots of injuries, but so much more. You know, there was the off the field, you know, one flub after another, the summarining of McLuhan to the Washington Post, the handling of cousins, first not having enough vision to sign him to a deal

that would have looked like a bargain and then not having the vision to trade him when it became obvious that the team didn't want him and he didn't want to be here. You know, that was dumb. You know, Dan's role during the post-RG3 era, 2015 through 2018, I do believe was less involved. You know, I had been told over and over again that he wasn't nearly as involved, you know, in that 2015 to 2018 stretch. You know, he was brought in for big money decisions like Josh Norman, but, you know, he had some trust in Bruce, you know, and for a brief moment, McLuhan. And I think, you know, he took a bit of a back seat. I felt that way during those years, the post-RG-3 years. I thought he took a little bit of a back seat,

as much as he can anyway, for a few years. And I think that that's maybe more than anything what Riddick, you know, was referring to, is that until, you know, 2019 started, and I'm talking about January 1st, 2019, that he had taken a bit of a backseat a little bit. But the 2019 season, I'm sorry, the 2018 season, the Philadelphia game, the lack of attendance, the sinking television ratings, the looking at Bruce and Jay and Doug and Eric and, you know, all of their penny-pinching, you know, signings over the years, their bargain basement, you know, hey, look at me, I just got a great contract with an average player. He realized, and I said this, you know, after the Philadelphia game, he realizes that his

precious business is being run into the ground, that his precious business is being alienated by what once was a very loyal fan base. You could sense it after that Philadelphia game. And I think what we've seen in 2019 is the return of Dan. You know, from the big money free agent signing and landing Collins to the attempts to get Antonio Brown or Golden Tate or C.J. Mosley, and for sure, the drafting of Haskins against the wishes of his football staff. This is sort of old Dan coming back. That's my belief. Is he a different owner? I think that he was from 2015 to 2018. I think he was during the Gibbs era. You know, that was

slightly, you know, that was different than the first five years. And the post-RG-3 era was, you know, also a little bit different, but, you know, let's not forget that the league, the league, as recently as a year ago, stepped in and encouraged him to hire Brian Lafamina to run the business of the Redskins. That was just a year ago. The league was so concerned about the erosion of the Redskins fan base that they really encouraged Dan to hire who they thought was a top-level executive to come in and start to repair the brand and bring back the fan base. That didn't work, did it? You know, look, maybe he is a better evaluator of quarterbacks than he was when he picked

Patrick Ramsey or traded for McNabb or fell in love with RG3. Maybe he'll get this one right. Time will tell, you know, as far as Dan being a different owner forever, he's had these swings, you know, of being a terrible owner and then deferring a little bit to Gibbs to being a terrible owner again to deferring a little bit to Bruce and Mike and then Bruce and Jay and Eric and Doug right now I think he's in the mode of trying to revive a business that has tanked and he feels like he is the one that can do it more than anybody else that's what I believe I that's he's been a failure as an owner for 20 years at times significantly involved

and at other times not as much but nothing's worked for him And I think he is back into that stage of being intimately involved. That's where I think he is now. Does it guarantee him being more involved that it won't work for him moving forward? No, it's not a guarantee. He may have struck gold with Haskins. That can change the fortunes of a franchise. But would you bet on him succeeding as an owner moving forward?

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Not to mention it's a fraction of the cost of those expensive postage meters. Stamps.com's a no-brainer especially for small businesses. It saves you time, it saves you money, and it's no wonder that over 700,000 small businesses already use Stamps.com. Now, right now, my listeners get a special offer that includes a four-week trial plus free postage and a digital scale without any long-term commitment. Just go to Stamps.com right now, click on the microphone at the top of the home page, and type in Kevin D.C, K-E-V-I-N-D-C. That's Stamps.com. Use my code, Kevin, D.C. All right, the NBA finals start tomorrow night, Toronto and Golden State. And actually, the game's a pick-em game right now, Aaron, if you were wondering.

But I reached out to Phil Schneer to have him come on the podcast because I always, enjoyed and have always enjoyed our conversations in the past. And I think your opinion on all this stuff is super sharp. But first of all, you know how many of us have missed you here in recent months and over the last year. How are you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm still going through withdrawals.

But, you know, things change and you got to adapt. So I appreciate the kind sentiment. I think Kara's doing a great job. And hopefully she and Buck will be. back next season. Yeah, I think all of us are hoping for that, and certainly all of us miss the way it used to be. All right, so there's so much about these NBA finals that I personally find interesting. But before we get to that, I was thinking, one of the reasons I was thinking about you recently

is, and I don't think that Golden State has played that way recently, and I think even Toronto does things a little bit more old school at times. But I was curious with all of the ISO ball in the NBA that we've watched here over the years, Phil. Was there ISO ball back in your day when playing with Elvin and Wes and competing for championships? I remember Dick Mata and Casey Jones. There was just a lot more five-man offenses, so to speak, then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would tend to agree. Keep in mind, Kevin, that's been 40 years ago, so I've forgotten a few of the plays.

But you're right. I think that we had, you know, options that would go from one to maybe even four. And depending on what your opponents took away, you knew to look for that next option. The one play I do remember was my play. They called the one C. But I would curl off of West. but I would usually read if the defense, if I felt the defense was going over the top, I might give them a strong thing and then go back door. If that didn't work, I didn't have the time or the luxury

then to double back and play. So sometimes I would clear out, which would take the play away and maybe Elvin was in a position or West was in a position to post up then. Or you'd have some other weak side action with Mike Reardon or spoon on the other side. So, yeah, and now what I remember defending with Golden State in that particular series was that, you know, they, I still don't think they isoled Rick Berry,

but they created an opportunity for him to utilize his one-on-one skills. And when we had opportunities, we would try to either close the drive or double teaming, but he was an excellent pastor too. And it's funny when you say that, I was thinking the same thing about Milwaukee, and that was their big problem. Right. That they tried to ISO Janus,

and Janice still is not an efficient shooter from the outside. So now he felt more, as the series went on, he felt more and more pressure to try and get to the rim and, you know, and spin. And, you know, it's a great move when you spin, but it's dangerous because for a split second you have your back to the, not only to the basket, but you have your back to certain defensive players that can come up from the blind side. So I just felt in that last series that Toronto did a much better job of taking away

something that Milwaukee had done most of the season and was very good at doing, took that away, and it was like Milwaukee didn't have a plan B. Yeah, it really didn't. It's so interesting listening to you speak because you're going through something that rarely happens in the NBA. You know, it doesn't happen in basketball a lot. It's much more at the college and high school level than at the NBA, but you're talking about, all right, my option's not there. Then we go to either Elvin or Wes on the post, and then we've got an option for Reardon or Weatherspoon, you know, for Nick Weatherspoon. And it's like, you just, you know, I watched, we all watched, you know, Houston, come down court.

Four players stand still, not make their defender even move, and watch James Harden go one-on-one on probably 40 to 50% of their possessions. And as I watch it, I always wonder what people like you think. Well, I will say this, Kevin, though, don't you feel like Golden State is a little different from that? And that they have movement going all over the place. And that's why you see players, it might be clay, it might be steady. It might be KED, it might be Draymond, cutting down the middle all of a sudden because they've got a defender that turned his head for that split second

and they're utilizing that opening and you have passers that understand those lanes and where those passes are going to be if that's the case and they can deliver the pass. That's why I really enjoy watching Golden State. I just don't think that you can defensively just sit on them and expect to be able to stop them. And I tell you something else, Kevin, I really enjoyed watching, not so much the Lakers,

but watching the Bulls when they had the triangle offense. Because I thought that that did the same thing. It took advantage of a defender that was either sleeping or overplaying, and they had different options. You run that triangle, you had people cutting off. So as a defender, you had to stay with that cutter. so now all of a sudden Jordan turns around he's got an isolation for that split second. And you're not going to be able to back somebody down because help can come then.

But if you face your opponent and drive right by them quickly, then you're going to get that lane that you see before the defense can collapse. You know, it's interesting because I think, first of all, I think you're right about the teams you mentioned. The warriors and the way they have moved the ball and the pace they play. at. I think Pop Spurs played, you know, four and five-man offenses much more.

I agree. I think some of those Celtics teams, you know, the one, the teams that won the team that won the title with Garnett and Ray Allen and Paul Pierce and Rajan Rondo, I think they were much more of a four and five-man offense. But one of the, but you'll

understand this. When you make people work defensively, it makes it easier for you defensively on the other end because you're wearing them out. And I watch Houston and you watch, you know, four defensive players essentially get to take a break. Now, there's some trapping and, and there's some, you know, there's some help. And you also see Phil so much more than I would imagine we did in your day. And I, I don't know that this is true, but I'll ask you, but so many teams play five men that can switch

every single screen, which, you know, makes it difficult sometimes offensively. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the Warriors are very good at that. They have confidence, even though you may be giving up a couple of inches here or there. You know, they're going to do that. And when they get – and that's the thing about it is when you have the opportunity to double team. You don't just leave somebody that's spotted up in three. But if you're in territory and there's a driver come down, now you trap that guy. And you make that pass wherever he's going to pass to a difficult one.

So if it's a weak pass, maybe you get a deflection. Or if it's a law. pass, you have time to get, you know, to readjust. But, you know, the one thing that I will say that's different, Kevin, is the three-point shot. Sure. And the fact that guys today shoot their three from even further out. So you have that much more territory to recover if you have to start rotating, you know,

you give a trap and now you rotate out. Now you don't have enough time sometimes to get to that shooter. because, you know, they're 15, 10, 15 feet away. And these guys are knocking down these shots with a high percentage. I think you just made the best point. It doesn't get made often enough when people talk about the benefits of shooting threes. It's not just that in the example of Golden State that they shoot threes, but they shoot threes, you know, Steph Curry can shoot them from 30 feet.

He'll pull up from 35 feet. And it changes the geometry. It changes the floor. and the spacing of the floor. Now if you run at him, there's a wide open floor for him to pump fake and go by you, and now you're five on four defensively. It's such a great point that isn't made. And, you know, because I am talking to one of the greater shooters in the history of the game,

you were just such a pure jump shooter. And you know what's always been interesting to me about, you know, say the last 10 to 15 years is that, you know, a 35 to 30 to 30, 38-foot jump shot is a jump shot. It's not a chuck. It's not a heave. And I'm wondering, when you were playing, and you pulled up from just inside half court, wasn't that more of just chucking it towards the rim? Why is it that Steph Curry and his wrist strength or his leg strength or whatever it is that creates the ability for him to go up from that deep and shoot a a regular jump shot for him.

A couple things come to mind. First of all, players are stronger now. Keep in mind, back in the 60s and the 70s, players did not get in the weight room. And so you have players that are a little stronger. Look at their – I remember Gilbert arenas. Look at Bradley Beal. I mean, these guys are chiseled, John Wall, and Clay Thompson, Damon Lillard. I mean, I can go on and on, you know.

But the other thing that's important is the fact that they practice those shots. Why would we practice a half-court shot on a regular basis? We weren't getting but two points on. And we felt like we could get closer and get a higher percentage shot. But these guys practice these shots now. And it's funny because just like with Damon Lillard, you know, Paul George saying, oh, that's a terrible shot. Well, it might be considered a lower percentage shot, but it's not a terrible shot

because guys today can make those kind of shots, you know, and they deal with the math of it in terms of the arc. Notice how many players are not shooting the ball at the rim, but arcing that shot up. Damon does it. Curry does it as well, obviously, better than anybody. But, you know, there's a lot of arc to the shot, too. So it's not when you get that ball up in the air,

it's not quite as far as if you're shooting that line-drive shot. Yeah, no doubt. By the way, you made the comment about weightlifting back in your day. Was it discouraged more for upper body and arms because it was thought that you'll ruin your stroke, your shooting stroke? That was the fear. That was the concern. And I don't think you had, I know you didn't have as many specialists, basketball specialists, that knew how to coordinate weightlifting with the physical mechanics of a basketball player.

You know, you always think about football players that use the weight training to get stronger and this is that. But there was that concern that, you know, you would lose your shooters touch. And now you have people that are coming in that are knowledgeable about how, Kevin, they've got guys, I mean, on every team on a regular basis, that do weight training before a game. They know how to do it so it doesn't fatigue the muscles and they can maintain their strength, but yet their feel and their touch around with the basketball.

So, yeah, that was a concern then. And I know Wes would go in there, but, you know, West wasn't a shooter really. Right, right. By the way, at times, you know, his upper body strength looked like he was the guy that was lifting weights. All right, before we get to the NBA finals, I want to talk about the Toronto Milwaukee series in particular, and I'll get to Kauai in a moment. But you mentioned Janice earlier. You talked about him in an ISO situation, just not being able to shoot it well enough.

And therefore, you had a defense just waiting on him to drive. and, you know, Toronto did a great job with that, and he wasn't a very good facilitator. I also noticed, and I was wondering if you noticed the same thing the other night, that he got a little scared, for the lack of a better description. He airballed a little floater at the end of game six from four or five feet out. I mean, it was three feet short on a four-foot shot, and I don't know that he shot again the rest of the way. You know, think about it. This was his first time being at that level.

Regardless of what you say, I remember my first time playing in the garden at the playoff. It affected me. You know, the nerves were a little stronger, a little bit more powerful. You know, I mean, I think you always have nerves, but sometimes when you start playing, the adrenaline kind of smooths everything out, and you're able to just allow your instincts to take over. but this is his first time playing on that level. Plus, I do feel like he was getting more and more frustrated because, again, I just think that Toronto was doing a really good job of making things difficult for him

and making him more often than not go to plan B, which was a perimeter game, and he knew that wasn't his strength. Kevin, he also shot at least two air balls from the free to line. Oh, yeah, I know. So some of that's fatigue. some of that is nerves and some of that is just the sheer pressure of being in that level trying to to get over the top but not being able to adequately take care of that you know also and you'll understand this and I could be wrong but guys with super big hands you know Dr. Jay had massive you

know hand size sometimes that stroke is a bit erratic it's like you're right it's it's almost like, you know, if I were to take in a gym in a pickup game with all my old man friends, you know, that we play, you know, twice a week, if I were to take a woman's basketball, which is smaller and try to shoot it, it's very awkward. And that could be the issue with the honest. I think LeBron's had some issues over the years at the free throw line, too. Do you think hand size has anything to do with it? I do, but I tell you one who, uh, contradicts that theory. Kauai Leonard.

Kauai. Absolutely. Huge hand. In fact, I was talking with a buddy in mind the other day, and I said, I mean, he grabbed that ball like Connie used to do, Connie Hawkins. And I mean, off the dribble with the left or the right. The dunk, the left-handed donkey had the other night. He just, you know, first of all, it was funny because Lowry looked like he had a layup.

And kudos to Kauai for running the floor. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, you know. Yonis would have blocked it. Yeah, yeah. But he just grabbed that ball with the left hand, moved it over, so Yonis couldn't get it, and threw it down. And he shoots very good free throws. It's a flatter. It's a flatter stroke, though, right? It's a bit of a flat stroke from the free throw line for Kauai.

It is. It is. But even his jump shot is a little flat. You know, now that shot, the game was. he had against Philadelphia, he was in the corner and fading away. So he had to arc that a little higher. And he got a very, as they say, fortuitous bouts. Yes, he did. All right, I want to talk about him because the numbers say he is in the midst of one of the greatest all-time individual playoff performances in NBA history. What are your eyes telling you? You know, I agree with yes, to make the simple answer. But this is what I really reflect on.

If you look at him, especially when he's been healthy, he really hasn't taken a back seat to anybody. The last time he was in the NBA finals, they were playing Miami with LeBron, and he was with San Antonio. They took him. He was MVP. He was amazing.

The last time he was actually in the playoffs was with Golden State. They were up on Golden State. And remember when he got hurt, He went out. Golden State made a run, came back and won the game. They were up 25 in the first half when he landed on Petulia's foot. So I would not, you know, I still think Golden State has to be favored. It really hurts them that Kevin Durant, you don't know, well, he's not going to play in game one, and you don't know how available he's going to be or how healthy he's going to be.

And Kauai is, to me, that X-factor. There are a lot of things that are falling in the place in this. First of all, they're starting in Toronto, which could help them. A, Golden State's been off for nine days. Sometimes you can lose your edge. You know, and like I said, I just think that Kauai is an X factor, and he can do so much, and that can flow in other players, Siakum, you know, other players.

Hopefully, Gassol was show. He was a no-show in that last series. And, you know, I mean, they went through the efforts of trading for him that gave up a couple of good players and for him to be a no-show in a big series like that, you know, thank goodness they had, Gawai Leonard. On Leonard, one more thing on Leonard. He does it in such a way. There have been examples of players like this over the years,

but you look up in its late third quarter, early fourth quarter, and you're like, he's got 25 already and 12 rebounds and eight assists. You know, it's that quiet way in which he does it. Now, he's had incredible fourth quarters and end of game finishes here during the postseason. but, you know, he's, nobody seems to be able to speed him up, Phil. And we certainly know that Golden State would love to play fast and speed him up. How is he so effective at being patient and getting to his spots and making the right plays at his speed? You know, I don't know what on with him down in San Antonio,

But I believe that a lot of where he is now is due to his experience playing under Popovich, playing with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, playing with that organization there, and getting a feel for his type of game, for his type of rhythm. And he has brought that confidence with him. I didn't know if that would be the case. He didn't play most of last year. and, you know, I just wondered if he would get stale, if he would lose some of his confidence, but that clearly has not been the case.

And he's a player now that he has that confidence. He feels like he can do and go anywhere on the basketball court, and he can. He has the ball. His ball handling skills have not really been mentioned as much as I think it should. I saw him dribbling through traffic, you know, crossing over, switching hands, and doing things that, you know, only little guards. Somebody like a Mugsy Boggs would do because he's low to the ground with the ball. But he's able, he has great hands, not only big hands, but great hands in terms of his handle.

So, you know, he's able to see the game, see the floor. And like I said before, you know, nobody has as, as, uh, bettered him over the last, when he's been healthy. Nobody's bettered him in the last three or four years. Yeah, it's like people almost forgot about him. I remember last year when it became apparent that San Antonio might trade him. And as a huge lifelong Bullets Wizards fan, I just said I would trade the entire team for Kauai Leonard. Because you know what? And I repeat this often, I did on radio and on this podcast. In this day and age of the NBA, you can't win a title or even legitimately contend for one if you don't have a top five player. And he was a top five player who was

available. I mean, how often does that happen? And the wizards don't have that. You know, they don't have a top five player. Well, I would, I would disagree with you to an extent. And that is, they're top five players because they continue to get there. And you, you develop an image of, of a clay, of a Draymond Green, of a Steph Curry, you know, and now you believe, because you see them every year playing at that level, playing, you know, with that level of efficiency. And I think that, you know, somebody like Bradley Bill, and I certainly hope that John Wall can come back healthy

and find a way, they still haven't found a way to really combine, really combine their talents at a very high level. We saw bits and pieces of it. But, you know, those are the things that will change your image. Well, well, John is the top five players. Well, Brad's the top five players. But they have to get to that level and consistently show, you know, the players and the skills that they have.

And that's what Kauai has done. You're right. We forgot about Kauai because for a whole year, we never saw it. And I say one other thing. Yeah, please. One other thing I want to mention, that is that, and I've had so many people, and I almost forgot about it, Kauai Leonard is one of the few players, if not the only player, that doesn't seem to complain when calls go against him. Even bad calls, he just turns the ball over, and that's kind of refreshing.

I'm going to tell you the truth. He's unslappable. Shack and Barclay the other night both said it almost simultaneously. he is a drama-free superstar. There's no drama. And yeah, I love that too. I mean, it is refreshing. On Golden State, obviously, they won a title without Durant,

and they could be well on their way to winning another one without him if he doesn't play in the finals. I know he was part of the Clipper series and the early part of the Houston series, but they are 6 and 0 without him. So obviously they can win a title without him. But the bigger question that's been asked by everybody that's an NBA fan here over the last two weeks is, are they actually better without him? No.

They're not better because with him they've got that much more options. Defensively as well as offensively, don't forget how good KD is defensively. And just like you mentioned, he's one of those guys that he can rotate over. All of a sudden, he might be guarding Damien Lillard. or he might be guarding the Joker. You know, I mean, he has that, and is shot blocking because of his length, and he seems to be willing. Think about how many games throughout the course of the season,

and this can happen in a playoff where you look at the stats and Clay had eight points, and maybe Steph had 20. He said, well, how'd they win? And you look up and Katie had 40. Yeah, I know. Or you might see a game where K. had 18 and Steph had 12. So, wow, how did Clay had 45, you know?

So that, I mean, with KD there, they had that many more weapons. And I don't know how they get along off the floor, but on the floor, their game complements each other. And they seem to be more than willing to understand who has the hot hand, who has the mismatch they want to go to. and if you ask me, I'm biased because I'm from the Bay Area, they're going to a new arena, they're playing in front of sellouts, it's the greatest city in the world,

why would you, you're winning championships, why would, you know, okay, you can go someplace else and make another three or four days. Maybe it's me. Maybe I just don't have that kind of desire to be the one guy on a team. I don't have a problem with that. I would love to play on that team, and I can't see anybody changing. Clay, K.D., Draymond, I would see, I hope to see that team stay together for years, but it may not happen.

We'll see. Well, you are right that that is the greatest city in this country. And you grew up there, and the rest of us just occasionally maybe visit it. But it's a phenomenal city, and they're moving into San Francisco. goes so I just think, you know what, when it comes to Durant, Phil, he jumped, here's the reality. He jumped on an already existing championship team. You can certainly argue he made it better and made it a true dynasty by winning the last two. But he hasn't gotten, you know, perhaps the credit that he, look, LeBron took Cleveland to the finals by himself, something that KD couldn't do

with Hardin and Westbrook. Well, he got him to the finals, but couldn't. win a title against Miami. And then, and then we're down. They were young, they were young, but maybe for him, you know, he got these championships with Golden State. And the next challenge is to be the obvious lead dog. Not that he isn't great and arguably the best player on that team, but that team also has Steph Curry and Clay Thompson and Draymond Green.

Well, again, Kevin, that's a totally different way of looking and thanking. And I'm not that, I never was that one guy. I mean, on my ice team, maybe. But, but I have no problem with being a part of a team with Bobby Danridge and Elvin Hayes and Tommy Henderson and, you know, Wes Unsell and, you know, all in the group that we had. I have no problem being that. And, you know, when my time comes to shine, I felt like I could do that, you know.

but it's a totally different mentality now. It is. Because so many players are talking about my guys, my team. And it was, at that time, it was our guys, my teammates, and our team. It wasn't like these guys are complimenting me. We're a team to compliment each other. So I don't buy the fact that KD is still illegitimate. He's won not only two championships,

he's won two MVP. He's won scoring titles. He's won MVP. He's in no way illegitimate to me. But that's just my way of looking at it. I love when you start talking about your old teammates because for people my age,

that's the only, that was the time for professional basketball in this town. And, you know, the other night, I was sitting there with one of my sons watching Toronto, Milwaukee Game 6, and I said, God, the atmosphere. And that building is almost college-like. And my son said, do you think it would, could ever be that way for the Wizards?

And I said, yes, because I remember being in that Capitol Center, you know, for game six against Seattle before you guys went to the seventh and deciding game. Or, you know, I'll never forget when you guys beat the Sixers to go to the NBA finals and the Eastern Conference Finals. That was, you know, this is a basketball town in so many ways. So I hope I hope it happens one day. on the, can Toronto win this series? And if so, how? I think they can, and it's going to be one of those times. Again, I keep reflecting back to earlier this year. And I know regular season is different from the playoffs.

But how many times the Warriors fell flat in games? And in Oakland, you know, I mean, they had two or three games where they got blown out by easy double-digit scoring, you know. But, you know, things can happen. Things can change. Like I said, the nine days off. I'm sure that Steve Kerr is trying to prepare his players as best he can, make sure that they're fit to go in for this final series and close out.

But I just think Quiet Leonard is an X-factor. And, you know, these great players can do great things and just surprise you. And I can point back to the year that in 75 when we were supposed to win it all. And, you know, Rick Barry just showed out. We knew he was a great player, but he took it to another level. And then he was able to elevate the Phil Smith, the Charles Johnson, the Dudley, the Derek Dickies, all those guys, you know, Clifford Ray. Clifford Ray was going to say, yeah. Yeah, they ended up rolling right through it.

Jimal, a young Jamal Wilkes. Yeah, I've got about Jamal, yeah. So, you know, Golden State has to be favored. There's no question about it. But I just wouldn't discount this Toronto team, especially with Kauai playing the way he does. Just so people who don't know and don't remember or can't remember because they weren't alive then,

the bullets were, that is still to this day, I believe, the biggest upset in NBA final. finals history in terms of the odds. The bullets were a prohibitive favorite. They were supposed to smoke Golden State in the 74-75 finals. Golden State was a surprise team, and the bullets had had the best record during the regular season. They had won 60 games, had beaten Boston in the Eastern Conference finals, and was a team that was supposed to roll past Golden State. and the bullets got swept in that series. Yeah.

It was certainly my biggest disappointment. I don't know about the odds makers, but it was disappointed to me. Yeah, you know, I mean, that series is available. I don't know if you've ever watched it. It's on YouTube. You can find most of the four games, including the deciding game and the one that was really close in maybe the Cal Palace, because I think they had to move it to the Cal Palace. Both games.

And, you know, we played one game here, and then we played two games out there. And then we were prepared to play two here, and then one, and then the seventh game back at the Capitol Center. But, yeah, we played both of the games out there at the Cowbell. Yeah, you led, and I just pulled up the series' stats, you led the bullets in scoring in that series. You averaged 23 a game, but it was certainly a disappointment for the bullets. Last thing about Steph Curry, because I don't know that I've asked you this in previous times that I've had you on.

Steph Curry, to me, is the best shooter and ball handler in one body in NBA history. Is there anybody that's been better as a combined shooter and ball handler in one body? I can't think of one. you know, I guess I've heard people mention Tiny Archibald, but I don't think he couldn't shoot it. Had the shot. Yeah, I don't think he had the shot. And again, he didn't have the range because he didn't need the range because we weren't

shooting three back then. What about Marevich? I don't think Marevich was as accurate. He had range, but he certainly had handles, no question about it. But he wasn't as accurate as Steph is. Keep in mind, Steph is shooting 40% for his career from three-point range. And most of his shots are three. Over half of his shots are three.

So that's, and let's not forget that when you do play him tight out on the floor, like we said earlier, he has the ability with his handles not only to dribble past you, but to get to the rim and finish with either hand, off the wrong foot, whatever case, and make the, finish those layups too. So, um, he's got such great feel around the rim. Yeah. He's, he's kind of revamped the game in that, you know, you see the effects of a player of his statute.

If you remember when he first came in the league, you know, he's too frail. He's not strong enough, you know, he won't, he won't stand up under NBA, a schedule and the physical play. But not only has he stood up, I mean, he stood out, and he's made a huge difference. And like I said, I think it altered the game. When I've had that conversation with others asking that question, the only one that comes to my mind is Isaiah.

Isaiah had the handle. And I think Isaiah had three-point shooting been, you know, accepted in the way it is today, not only three-point shooting, but as you described earlier, the length of the shot. I think Isaiah would have been a great long-range three-point shooter. I don't, you know, sometimes when you're thinking so hard, you're missing gaps. But I agree with you 100%.

Isaiah had those skills at ball handling skill. He certainly was an excellent shooter in that range. But at that time, threes were still just developed. And, you know, he may have shot two or three a game. And usually they were using those to end a quarter. They were taking a three at the end of a quarter. But now, I mean, guys are stepping back to shoot three. You know, they're faking like they're going in and coming back.

But I agree with the Isaiah had to get have a compliment of that game. How good of a three-point shooter would you have been? And let me just say this because you won't say it for yourself. But Phil had one of the most beautiful jump shots you'd ever seen. he was one of the best in the game you were a phenomenal shooter you could shoot off the dribble you were incredible catching it off a screen

with the quick release the whole thing you didn't play with a three point shot maybe your last season but you were injured towards the end of your career what kind of three point shooter would you have been well it would have been

one that I would have had to practice but based on the mentality and that goes back to something I always argue about. It's so hard to compare somebody in the 50s or the 60s to somebody today because the whole mentality is different. But I would have practiced that shot. I think I would have gotten comfortable with it.

I'll give you an example. I think Jeff Malone is a good example. When he first came into the league, he was a pure shooter, and he was very, very efficient with the mid-range shot. but more and more the three's got so he evolved and he got to shooting that three point shot towards the end of his career or like when he went to Utah and whatnot so I would like all I can say is that I would have practiced that shot because you get the extra points but more importantly it opens up the floor so you have somebody playing guarding you out there and let's let's be real

you know today defenders can't hand check the way they used to. Right. So little light-filled Chenier at 180, now of a sudden you can't hand-check me out there. I can utilize a little more quickness to get around somebody. So, you know, I would like to think that I would practice that shot, but it's like anything else. We'll never know it's barbershop. Yeah, I'm trying to think of back then, and this was

probably, I mean, you were on the team with Kevin Greby, but, you know, he played beyond your career here in Washington and in other places. He, he was probably on the, when the three-point shot came in, and you were probably gone at that point, if my memory serves me correctly from here, with the back injuries that you had. But he was really the one marksman, you know, for the team there for the beginning stages of the three-point shot in the NBA. Right. And Kevin, it's funny, we laugh at with each other. He was like me. I mean, he loves shooting the ball.

Yeah, he did. You know, but let's face it, at that time, three-point shooting wasn't quite as acceptable. Right. And he had Elvin Hayes, he had Bobby Danvers, and he had a coach by the name of Dick Mata. It wasn't real crazy about long perimeter shots. And his whole concept was, let's get it inside. Okay, if we can't do that, okay, you give these perimeter shooters, their shots. but we're going to make sure that West, Elvin, and Bobby inside Ballard and Mitch,

they get their ball, they get some touches down there, you know. So even then, even though Kevin had the range, he didn't get to shoot that often, you know, and he better be making them because, you know, Dick would be pulling him out real quick. Well, I mean, the goal of almost any basketball coach at any level during that time, was to manufacture via an offense or plays a shot as close to the rim as possible, because those were the highest percentage shots. So it was just a completely different game. I always enjoy this.

I really appreciate the time. And I enjoy the conversation about your day sometimes even more than what you think of today's players and today's finals. But I... Well, Kevin, you know your basketball, because sometimes you remind you. me of things that I've forgotten, so I enjoy it as well. Well, it's always fun, and I think I'm really looking forward to this series. Maybe it's because it's not Cleveland, Golden State.

You know, we got something new this year, but watching Kauai Leonard and how he'll, you know, I think Toronto needs, they have to have the other players step up like they have, like they did in the last series. I think that's the whole, you know, a guy like Kyle Lowry and Siakum, and as you mentioned, Gasol and, you know, their bench players that came up big. They got to have big series if they're going to beat Golden State. Absolutely. No question.

All right. Thanks. Take care. And hopefully we'll talk soon. Absolutely. Anytime, Kevin. Love catching up with Phil Schneer, always. He, it really is fun.

And I know this isn't for everybody, but for those of you of a certain age, it's great to hear him talk about some of the old games, old teams, that he played on. Those were the teams of my youth, and they were great. You know, this, this town as a professional basketball town, Aaron, in the 1970s, you know, they were a lot to be in the postseason each year. They were always a contender to make it to the NBA finals. In Washington, when they moved to Washington in 73, they went to the NBA finals in 1975, 1978, and 1979. And in those other years, they were a contender to get there. They were thought, you know, they were a really good team. And they had NBA Hall of Famers on the team. I mean,

Wes Unseldon, Elvin Hayes were both, you know, in that initial list of the top 50 greatest players in NBA history. They were on the list. And if Phil Schneer didn't have back trouble, which he had in a day and age in which they couldn't handle, you know, back issues, you know, with the kind of surgery and treatments that are available today, he would have had a longer career and potentially a Hall of Fame career. He was that good as a bullet in particular. A quick word about launch workplaces and then a recommendation for all of you. Launch workplaces in Bethesda is open,

and if you're looking for new office space in that area, consider it. Launch workplaces is right there in the Mass Ave corridor. You can call 240, 86714 today. Mention my name and get an exclusive free two-day trial. They've got fully furnished brand new offices. They're beautiful. Conference rooms, co-working desks, plenty of internet speed, complimentary drinks at cafe, and free parking and plenty of it.

24-7 access as well. Get more work done today by moving your office out of your home or from wherever you are into launch workplaces in Bethesda. 240, 86714, or go to launchworkplaces.com today. They've got other locations around town. You can find those at launchworkplaces.com. Don't forget that if you haven't rated us and reviewed us on iTunes, do that. Always appreciate that.

Subscribe as well. Doesn't cost you anything and remind people that haven't listened, that they can listen by simply going to the Kevin's, Shian Show.com. Here's my recommendation for all of you. It is a documentary two parts

called What's My Name? It's about Muhammad Ali. It is an HBO show. The executive producers of the show are LeBron James and Maverick Carter, his business manager. But it was, I think, directed by Antoine Fuqua, I think,

is his name. But, you know, there have been so many Ali documentaries over the years. This was as good as any of them I have ever watched. I watch both parts. They're both just over an hour. There is, from my standpoint, I don't know if this is accurate or not, but there appears to be more film on Ali from various points in his career that seems to be new to me. but it's a very intimate look into Ali and again we've seen this so many times with him I don't know that there's been a human being that has been documented more than Ali in you know books or movies or documentaries he is quite honestly in my lifetime the most

famous human being you know in in my lifetime in one of the most famous human beings that have ever walked the face of the earth. And I enjoyed this. There was much more of the feeling of the day, which I am told, was much more accurate, that Cassius Clay was despised by a lot of people in this country, certainly the old guard. And this was before he refused to go into the army for the Vietnam War. He was very unique in the way that he obviously talked. He had the nickname the Louisville

Lip, and people didn't like that. They thought it was, you know, outspoken was, you know, the equivalent to, you know, lacking in class. But, you know, I think a lot of people know the story that there was a famous wrestler who Ali

essentially imitated. He watched this crazy wrestler, crazy George, I think it was a gorgeous George. exactly, Gorgeous George, and that this was his inspiration to behave the way he behaved. And he said, people hate Gorgeous George, but they're buying tickets, they're spending money on tickets. You see a lot of his early portion of his career. I think a lot of those fights are available, but you see them again, the fight with Ernie Terrell, which was really the fight where he screamed at Ernie Terrell throughout the fight,

what's my name, because Terrell wouldn't call him Muhammad Ali, referred to him as Cassius Clay, in the same way that Floyd Patterson did. And, you know, back then, you know, Cocell was at the beginning of sort of calling his fights, and, you know, it was considered to be mean-spirited in the way that he, you know, toyed with the great Floyd Patterson through a long fight and punished him, and then he did the same thing with Terrell,

instead of knocking him out. Well, Ali wasn't a knockout artist. That wasn't really who he was. There's obviously a lot on the first Frazier fight, which is considered the sporting event of the 20th century. No other sporting event in terms of the hype or the actual event itself matches the March 8th, 1971, Ali Frazier one fight. But then, you know, for the purposes of unbelievable sports ups, up, sets, nothing equals other than Tyson losing to Buster Douglas, nothing before Douglas over Tyson equaled Clay over Liston. The fight in 1964, his first title fight where he was an eight to one underdog and Sonny Liston would punish people and really hadn't gone beyond two rounds. He knocked out everybody. He was also controlled by the mafia. And Clay predicted that he would win an eight. And

you know there was the the ointment on sunny liston's gloves that got into ali's eyes which apparently was intentional and ali didn't want to come out for i think it was the fifth round and angelo dundee pushed him out and said just just move until he was able to clear his eyes and and then he punished listin and you know liston didn't get off his stool to get out to to to to fight him in the eighth round and it was a stunning upset at the time february 25th night 1964. I mean, one of the all-time sports shockers. And then it was after that fight that he announced that he was, you know, a member of the Muslim faith and that, you know, the honorable Elijah Muhammad was his guy. And Malcolm X was a friend of his. And then Malcolm X was

assassinated. And Ali entered the rematch with Sunny Liston. They had to fight it in Lewiston, Maine for a lot of reasons, but there were major security, you know, concerns in that fight. And that was the famous Phantom Punch fight, which he actually did, and you can see it, he hit Liston, whether or not it should have knocked out Liston is another story, but Liston didn't want any part of Ali. You know, you get the whole buildup to the, to the Foreman fight, and, you know, how daunting Foreman was, and what a big upset that was. And you get everything. It was just very well done. It's not, A lot of it is essentially narrated by his words and the words of others, you know, sound from all the people of the day. There's not a lot of narration above that.

But it is well done. So if you're a sports fan, but certainly a boxing fan or an Ali fan, it's called What's My Name? And it's available on demand on HBO. I think it aired maybe a month ago. I don't know, maybe even more recently than that. but it is excellent. Tomorrow, Tommy's with me. Tim Legler will be on the show as well.

We'll preview the NBA finals. I think the Redskins have some OTA days. I think we'll start hearing from Jay Gruden this week a little bit more as well. Have a great day.