The Kevin Sheehan Show - Snyder Sale 'Snag' + Mike Rizzo

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Kevin opened with thoughts on the Washington Post story that described 'snags' that could complicate Dan Snyder's sale of the Commanders to Josh Harris. He also shared his big Commanders-related takeaway from the Netflix series "Quarterback". Then it was Washington Nationals' GM Mike Rizzo jumping on as a guest. Ben Standig/The Athletic followed.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today, including Mike Rizzo, the general manager of the Washington Nationals. I'm looking forward to having Mike on the show.

It's been a while, actually, since I've had Mike on radio or the podcast. Tommy and I had Mike on a lot when we did the sports fix together on 980. But then 1067 the fan became the flagship home for the nationals, and he had an exclusive obligation radio-wise to do that station. But Mike Rizzo, the general manager of the Nats, coming up in the next segment, followed by our good friend Ben Standing. Ben wrote a column that appeared today in the athletic

that named the all-Dan Snyder-era team, the best players to ever play at each position during the Dan Snyder era. Ben will be on with us coming up in the final segment today. We'll talk about a couple of other things with Ben as well. There was a very interesting story that broke overnight in the Washington Post, written by Nikki Javala and Mark Maskey. And that story, of course, deals with the sale. I'll get to that here momentarily and a couple of other things.

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And I'll start with the story in the Washington Post early this morning, written by Mark Maskey and Nikki Javala, that describes legal snags between the league and Dan Snyder that threatened to complicate the commander's sale. An alarming headline, and, you know, some of the quotes in here are a bit alarming as well. I'm not that alarmed. I'll get to that here in a moment. Let me read from the story. It starts. Issues in the legal negotiations between the NFL and representatives for Washington owner Daniel Snyder threatened to complicate the approval and closing of Snyder's $6.05 billion sale of the franchise to a group led by Josh Harris, according to two people familiar with the conversations between attorneys for the league and Snyder. Let me interject right there.

Just so everybody's clear. This is not an issue between Dan and Josh Harris. Okay, that deal is done. That deal was fully executed. All terms agreed upon. And the only thing it waits on to be closed, the deal to be closed, money to be wired, etc., is for three-fourths of the owners to approve Josh Harris. This is also not an issue between Josh Harris and the league, not an issue over the structure of the deal.

the debt associated with the deal, the number of limited partners in the deal. This is between the league and Dan. I continue with the story. It was not clear late Wednesday night whether those complications will affect the NFL's plans to have team owners vote to approve the sale at a meeting next week in Minneapolis. That's the July 20th scheduled vote on Josh Harris. According to one of the people with knowledge of the deliberations, the complications are related, at least in part, to legal issues pertaining to the leaking of emails that led to the October 2021 resignation of John Gruden as coach of the Las Vegas Raiders. Sound familiar? Yeah, we spent all day on yesterday's show or a lot of the show talking about the Don Van Nata, Seth Wickersham story, ESPN.com, detailing a lot of the, you know, John Gruden leaking email.

motivations, who leaked the emails, what the consequences to those leaked emails were, one of which was, that was the beginning of the end for Dan Snyder as owner of the team. And so this is a story now that comes out a day after that story that says there's a problem between the league and Dan over indemnification related to the John Gruden leaking of emails. Back to the story. That person described the complications as, quote, significant and not just some small snag, closed quote, expressing the view that the issues could delay the owner's approval of the sale and the closing of the deal if they're not resolved. But the person also left open the possibility that Snyder and his attorneys merely are attempting to extract last-minute concessions from the NFL on legal indemnification related to Gruden's lawsuit against the league.

There's a quote from one of the two sources, quote, hopefully it gets resolved, but at this point, it's serious, closed quote. There's a part of this story that also speaks to Michelle Snyder. Michelle Snyder is part owner of the commanders. And according to one of the sources for this story, Nikki and Mark Maske write, part of the complication relates to Snyder's sister, Michelle, being unwilling to agree to indemnification of other owners from legal liability in the Gruden case.

Michelle Snyder is a part owner of the commanders and all limited partners must agree to the provisions in the sale agreement. Let me just interject there for a moment. I would assume that that's already, you know, happened, that all of the partners in the commander's ownership group with Dan Snyder, his sister and anybody else that has any, has a share or two in the team, they've already agreed to the parameters of the sale agreement because the sale agreement was fully executed. I guess there could be something in that agreement that says pending, you know, the indemnification situation being resolved between the league and the team.

I guess. There's another part of that paragraph that I wanted to read. That person also said Daniel Snyder no longer is willing to sign an affidavit that he did not leak the emails that led to Gruden's resignation after previously being willing to do so. According to a person familiar with the communications between the commanders in the NFL, the team's view is that all of the commanders' owners have agreed to indemnify the league for any damages arising from the actions of the owners and the team. Such an agreement, however, would not necessarily apply to the actions of Goodell and Pash, as in Jeff Pash, the league's number one attorney. According to a person familiar with the communications, I'm sorry, that person also said that Snyder has already testified

under oath before the oversight committee that he neither leaked the Gruden emails nor directed or authorized anyone to do so and does not know who did. That person said Snyder has not refused to sign an affidavit to that effect. So we've got conflicting information right there. One person saying Snyder is unwilling now to sign an affidavit stating that he didn't leak the emails and somebody clearly close to Snyder saying that he has not refused to sign. an affidavit and also suggesting that this isn't about indemnification for damages, you know, from the actions of owners and the team after he's left, but this is about actions of Goodell and Pash. So it's a lot here. It's a lot the last two days. I understand. I think this thing is

going through because, and I think it's going through in the time frame in which we've thought it would be going through, which is next week. Because there are, you know, mutual motivations here, mutually aligned motivations here. The league wants this to end. They want Dan gone. And at this point, I think Dan wants to go. I know his family wants this to end. Look, he's got four and a half to five billion dollars sitting there a week from now that's going to be wired into his account. I know that he's a wealthy individual and they're a wealthy family, but still, once the debt gets paid down, it's like $4.5 to $5 billion. I think the part of this story early on that read that Snyder and his attorneys merely are attempting to extract, that it's possible that Snyder and his attorneys are merely attempting to extract last-minute concessions from the NFL, that to me is what this reeks of. Dan doing Dan stuff. It's like, you know, he can't let this thing. One of the first things I remember

saying about the potential sale of this team when it was first, you know, brought to our attention with the news last November that the team had retained Bank of America to explore this possibility. I remember just having this thought and sharing it with all of you and with Tom, where I said, you know, he has screwed up every single thing that he's ever done. Is it possible that he could screw up the sale of the team? And yeah, that possibility has always existed, but remember, we've gotten through a lot of that. There is a final, you know, executed deal. The owners are ready to vote on Josh Harris. This indemnification stuff is a little bit complicated because, you know, we've, you know, thought the indemnification may have something to do with the Mary Joe White

investigation or going back to other investigations or other lawsuits, including the Eastern District of Virginia's criminal lawsuit, or maybe even it's been suggested that Dan doesn't want to have anything, you know, doesn't want to be liable for anything related to anything the league's done while, while he was owner, you know, things related to like the Brian Flores situation. So I think it's going to happen. I just think this thing's moving forward. I think this is Dan doing Dan things. And look, you know, Gruden wrote those emails.

Like, Gruden isn't the coach of Las Vegas anymore. First and foremost, because of the things that he wrote in those emails. The fact that those emails were leaked, I don't know, and Neil and Rockville was on with me this morning, I don't know if that necessarily means that he was slandered. I don't know if that means that he, you know, was defamed in any way. You know, Neil suggested that maybe, you know, it has to do with, you know, intentional distress, you know, put on Gruden, and that's why Gruden's continuing to get there. Gruden just wants this thing to get to trial so there's discovery so that the league gets embarrassed in a major way. And by the way, maybe we kind of missed the headline of yesterday because we were so wrapped up in everything related to Dan in the Vanatta Wickersham story.

Maybe the real headline is Goodell, because if Goodell was involved in leaking these emails and there's this treasure trove of stashed emails with Jeff Pash, as it was described in the story. story. Maybe Giddell's finally in trouble. But anyway, I think this is going to happen. I do. And I think this is Dan doing Dan's stuff.

But if anybody could screw this sale up, a $6 billion sale, the largest in the history of North American sports, it would be Dan Snyder. So I wanted to mention that last night,

I watched seven of the eight quarterback episodes, this Netflix series, following last year, Patrick Mahomes, Kirk Cousins, and Marcus Mariotta. I'm a complete idiot, I understand, but there was nothing going on in sports last night. There was nothing really to watch. My dog, I think I discussed this the other day with Tommy, had recent surgery, so I have to keep a close eye on her. We all do. So she was just lying down on the ground on my lap last night as I sat on the ground with her. And I started episode one. And five hours later, it was like 1230. And I had completed seven of the eight episodes. And I have a major, major takeaway from these episodes. and it has to do with Eric B. Enemy. But before I get to that, let me just mention that every, most of you know, I'm a big Kirk Cousins fan. I was when he was here.

I'm a Kirk Cousins fan of him as a person, of him as a quarterback, and I think I've always had it right when it's come to Kirk. I do. I've never suggested that he was an elite quarterback, but I've also always suggested that he is, He's a top half of the league. You know, at times, he's been, you know, right around the top 10 in the league as he is right now. And if you put a team around him, you can win with Kirk Cousins.

And, you know, I'll never, ever really understand. It's not true. I do understand why they moved on from Kirk Cousins. They weren't sure, and that was a reasonable position to take. But I will never really understand the way they hand. handled this situation, not trading him there at the end when the 49ers were willing to offer number two overall at the very least, you know, publicly summarining him after he turned down their insulting offer for like the third time, an insulting offer. Look, they set him down the path

of the franchise tag. And they were a shitty organization to be a part of. And once Sean McVeigh left, Kirk wasn't going to stay anyway. We've been through all this. Anyway, the parts about Kirk cousins are really good. Now, he is a total dork. I mean, and I think he tries a little bit too hard on all this stuff that he uses. Look, he is so dedicated to being the best that he can be. You should see what he goes through and some of the things that he does. I mean, he meets with a psychologist. He's got this brainwave machine. I mean, it's one thing after another. It got a little bit much, even for me on some of that stuff. But he is a true pro.

And the part last, when he came back to Washington, was great. There was a whole segment of one of the episodes on Minnesota playing at Washington. And they loved Washington. I remember him telling me how much that he loved Washington, how he and his wife would literally take, you know, from Landover after a home game, they would take the route back to Virginia going through the city so that they could drive by the monuments and see the city lit up at night and how much they loved living here. But anyway, the Kirk stuff was great. The Marriota stuff was really good. By the way,

Kirk really, what you found out, played injured for much of last year. He was the most hit quarterback in the NFL last year, and he had, you know, injured ribs for much of the season. and played through that. Marriota, that stuff was great. He's a likable guy. But then again, at the very end of the Marcus Mariotta tenure in his time in Atlanta last year, he basically bolted when Desmond Ritter was named the starter. It also happened literally the day after his wife had their first child. Patrick Mahomes, there's so much to the Mahomes story last year that's so interesting. His wife is annoying. I will mention that.

I think a lot of people have mentioned that on social media. Mahomes is, he's an interesting dude, man. But the real cool, first of all, this is a very well-done show. Let me just back up a little bit. These guys are miced up at home. They're miced up in the building at practice and going through all of the physical therapy stuff, all of the medical stuff. We see them, you know, with their kids, with their wives.

We see them, you know, attempting to stay as healthy as they can during a long season. We see them in-game. I mean, you get access like you really, you know, we see the NFL film stuff is always great stuff. But we've got a ton of excellent in-game moments. And by the way, each one of these episodes, I mean, they move so quickly. I mean, they seem to be over before they've even started. But the Mahomes injury in the Jacksonville playoff game, that was fascinating to watch. Andy Reed, the team doctor on the sideline, they wanted him out.

He refused to come out. But then, if you recall, the backup quarterback goes in and leads a 98-yard drive for a touchdown. And, you know, he comes out in the second half and plays, and they end up winning, that game. But it was amazing what Chad Henney was able to do coming in in relief. I had forgotten about that part. Chad Henney coming in and leading a 98-yard drive that led, that that culminated in a touchdown pass to Travis Kelsey for a 17-7 lead. That was a very competitive game. But that whole back and forth between Mahomes and Reed, Mahomes and the doctor, Mahomes. Mohomom. and Matt Nagy, which I'll get to here in a moment, during that game was great.

So let me get to what for me was by far and away the biggest takeaway. And I'll preface it with two things. One, I have not seen the final episode of this series, Episode 8. I'm going to watch that tonight. And that's the episode that will include Kansas City in the Super Bowl against the Eagles. I've watched every episode up until that final episode, but nothing about Super Bowl week and Super Bowl game, et cetera. The other thing I will say is I understand that this is an edited, you know, series, that there's a lot left that they had available to use for each one of these episodes that wasn't used. With that said, Eric Bienemy is insignificant in any of these episodes.

The three musketeers of Kansas City Chief's offensive football are Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reed, and Matt Nagy. Matt Nagy is the one that is constantly interacting during games on the sideline with Patrick Mahomes and Chad Henney. Andy Reed is constantly talking to Patrick Mahomes. You see Eric B. enemy occasionally, and he's usually sitting. on the bench is Matt Nagy and Patrick Mahomes and Chad Henney are looking, you know, over play charts and Microsoft video on what's gone on in the game. And Bienemy is not participating at all, at all. Again, edited, maybe the best parts of Bienemy were edited out for some reason.

Maybe the best part of Bienemy is coming. But what was very clear based on what we saw in the seven episodes of the eight is that Matt Nagy was the offensive coordinator. Matt Nagy was the confidant for Patrick Mahomes and for Andy Reid, not Eric Bienemy. But again, could have missed out on all of the, you know, it could have been left on the cutting table, all of the big Eric Bienemy contributions to the Kansas City offensive. team last year. And I'm not suggesting that he didn't contribute anything. I'm just saying what I watched. And many of you watched and told me the same thing because I talked about this on radio this morning. But there is not much Eric B. Enemy involvement in this show. Maybe it'll all come in the

final episode. And that just leads me to this. And for whatever reason, like the conversations with Carson Wentz last summer, the conversations about the team name, the conversations about, you know, Sam Howl. Some of you are really sensitive to any sort of, you know, identifying red flags. And I told you the day they hired Eric B. Enamey. Eric B. Enemy got hired by Washington. Many of you said, well, why would he take the job in Washington? Well, because he had nowhere else to go. That's why Washington was the only place that offered him a job.

Everybody else that interviewed him didn't offer him a job. Kansas City is thrilled that he's gone. Steven Spector suggested to me, Stephen, remember, was with us at the radio station for many years, now runs a sports talk radio station out in Kansas City. And I remember when Eric B. Enemy got hired, I had Stephen on radio. It may have been on the podcast. And Stephen said, look, Matt Nagy is Mahomes' guy. Matt Nagy is going to be the, it was going to be the offensive coordinator, you know, whether Eric B. Enemy was here or not. That's just what it is. Now, would he have been rehired by Kansas City if Washington didn't hire him? maybe i mean i can't imagine andy reed letting him twist in the wind unemployed but let's just

understand that multiple things can be true here eric bianami was available because nobody else was interested it's also possible that eric bianemy will flourish being away from and underneath, you know, and away from the shadow of Andy Reed and Matt Nagy and Patrick Mahomes. It's possible. But he's here because this was the only place willing to take him. Now, early returns, everybody seems to like him. And maybe Washington's the place for Eric B. enemy because they've needed a hard ass. They've needed some discipline. But I do really think at the end of the day, Eric B. Enemy's act wore thin in Kansas City. And Kansas City was moving away from Eric B. Enemy.

And once Matt Nagy got fired in Chicago and went back to Kansas City, he's the guy. And these episodes make that very clear. Again, understanding that maybe a lot of the Eric Bienemy involvement was edited out, or it's to come in episode seven. That's all possible. All right. Dalvin Cook. Bucky Brooks now is the latest to think that

Dalvin Cook to Washington makes sense. I'll hold off on that. We'll talk to Ben about that when Ben is on. But up next, Mike Rizzo, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Believe it or not, Mike Rizzo has been the general manager of the Nats coming up on 15 years.

years, making him easily the longest-running GM in town. And why wouldn't he be? I mean, when he took over in 2009, he built an organization that made quite the run eight seasons, starting in 2012, five times to the postseason, and of course the World Series in 2019. They won more games over that span than any team in the National League with the exception of the L.A. Dodgers. and it is my pleasure to have Mike on the podcast with me right now. You've been here longer than 15 years. It's been probably like 18 or 19 at this point. Does it seem like it's been that long?

You know, I often say that the days go slow, but the years go fast. And yeah, it's my 17th year in Washington, D.C. I signed here when the learners signed the ownership papers, I signed my first contract here in 2006 and been here ever since and took over the GM spot in spring training of 2009. And it's been a wild ride ever since. But I love the city. I love the environment. I love what we've built here.

We've got a good culture. And I can't wait to start winning more championships. and that's our goal and that's our vision. I think a lot of people hope you're here for another 17 as well. You just said you like being here. You're from the Midwest. I know you lived in Arizona for a while, among other places. But, you know, in this city, because it's so transient,

although sometimes I think that's overrated, but, you know, 17 years makes you for all intents and purposes like a legitimate Washingtonian. Do you feel like one and have you really enjoyed? living here. Oh, I do. I feel like I'm from Chicago. You know, born and raised Chicago and, you know, kind of a baseball nomad, you know, in my

scouting, in my scouting days. And then I became an executive. My first executive gig was in Phoenix, though, with the Diamondbacks. So I had to move there for eight years. But, yeah, we're, I feel like I have roots here. I live here. I mean, I'm three blocks from the ballpark. I've watched this neighborhood grow up right before my very eyes.

And I do feel part of the community. My neighbors know who I am, and they see me sitting in my front porch and smoking a cigar every so often. And we have some nice conversations, though. So, yeah, I feel part of the place, and I really enjoy it here. You know, we talk, as you probably know, a lot about the football team in this town. And I've always said, like, the football team, because their home base is way out in Loudoun County, and virtually everybody associated with the football team lives out in Loudoun County, I think they've missed out on living in Washington.

You know, that's way out there in terms of suburbs. but you guys, and by the way, the wizards and the caps as well, you've gotten to, you know, exist professionally and personally, you know, in the city or certainly very close in to the city. I think that's such a benefit, you know, for, because I, look, I'm a born and raised Washingtonian, I'm from here. I think it's a great city to live and raise a family in. Oh, I do too.

I like the fact that, you know, I don't like to drive. much. So it's, you know, all the restaurants that have popped up and all the places to go and, you know, walk to work and, you know, walk to get something to eat or get a beer, it's, it's been great. And the people, you know, have, you know, accept those things. They never bother, they never bother me, at least, you know, and all the comments I get are supportive and positive. And, you know, I interact with them just like I interact with anybody. And it's, yeah, it's very refreshing, and I enjoy that aspect of it. Do you have a go-to restaurant in town?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm an Italian-American, so, you know, Philomena City is one of the best Italian restaurants in the country. Right. I love that place. You know, I go to, I go to, you know, some bars down. I live in Navy Yard, so that, everything's popping up there. It's crazy. and you know, there's a bunch of a bunch of sports bars and everything down here.

So you don't have to go far, you don't have to go far to find some good place to eat or drink in this neighborhood and in this town. Philomena's been in that spot in Georgetown forever. By the way, I would say that your hometown of Chicago is a much better food town than D.C. Yeah, I think there's more, there's probably as much quality here. Chicago, the quality and quantity is hard to be. That's for sure. Yeah. All right.

I wanted to start baseball talk with this. How much of why the team is where it is right now, which is in rebuild mode, how much of that has to do, Mike, with not being able to take it of a World Series championship and everything that would have come with it, but didn't because of the pandemic? I think that has a lot to do with it. You know, we got very unlucky with that. You know, we had a magical, you know, 19 seasons.

And, you know, usually, you know, teams get that big, that big time bounce for the next couple of years with revenues and that type of thing. We never got that, you know, we never got to raise the banner in front of fans and, you know, do a ring ceremony in front of fans and that kind of thing, which is unfortunate. But I think, you know, the revenue aspect of it is tangible. It was real and it was extremely unfortunate for us. Has anybody, I would imagine somebody's done it, and I just have never seen this reported on. Has anybody quantified what the loss in what would have been new revenue, incremental revenue to the franchise was by not being able to take advantage of that? Yeah, I've never seen it or read it anywhere. I'm sure that maybe some internal things around here we've done it.

But I've never seen it. It's just common sense and past history. it tells you that those teams usually get that big bump and that big boost the next couple of years afterward. Of the decisions you've had to make over the last couple of years in particular, the organizations had to make over the last few years, you know, Scherzer, Turner, Soto, etc., has there been one that was more difficult than any of the others? I mean, as far as implementing the strategy and the, you know, once we made the decision that we were going to tear it down and rebuild it the right way, I think, you know, the, the, the, the,

the fortunate part was that we, we had no gun to our head with any of these trades. You know, we were going to make a good trade for Juan and for Trey and for Mad Max, or we weren't going to make it. So that was fortunate that ownership gave us that opportunity. And, you know, Max had full no trade. And he kind of led us decided where he was going to, where he was going to be traded, you know, at the end there because he had full control of it. So that may things a little bit more complicated.

But I think that, you know, the big decision was that, you know, the global decision was, you know, in 21. are we going to rebuild or are we going to buy at that deadline? And that was a decision, an organizational decision that, you know, like all of our decisions here, you know, our baseball operations ownership and everyone gets our heads together. We kind of come up with a plan and a blueprint for, you know, what's best for the organization long term. I know it's too early to actually come to a conclusion on any of these deals that you've made, big deals that you've made in recent years, but do you have a hunch or a gut feel on the one that

you'll look back on and say, yeah, that was a really good deal for the franchise? As far as the rebuild goes? Yeah, any of the big trades over the last couple of years, do you have a gut feel on the one that right now you feel like four years from now we're going to look back and say wow what a deal that was for the franchise. Hopefully all of them. Yeah. Yeah, hopefully

I was going to say hopefully all of them and you know this the Juan Soto trade to the Padreys is you know it was a trade of historic significant I think because you know no player with that at that age

with that service time left and with that ability level was ever traded and, you know, the return we got via prospects and young, young major leaguers, you know, we felt was, you know, was exactly what we were looking for. And I always say that, you know, the greatest trades that are made benefits both parties. And, you know, the Padres were going in their direction. They wanted, they needed a player like Juan Soto. They had the prospect that we needed to make the trade.

And so we've got ourselves a prospect package that satisfied us. And where we were at our timeline and when they were at their timeline, I think we both achieved our goals and got what we wanted to get in the trade to set us up, you know, for the future. So where are we, Mike, right now, calendar-wise, in the build back to being a contender? I think you could see the improvements that our young core of major league players are, you know, with the Ruiz and the C.J. Abrams and the Garcia's and the Grays and the Grays and the Gores and the Irvin. I think you see those guys as really, you know, key components of our next championship caliber roster. you know, you've got Lane Thomas on that list that could be a contributor on that next team.

And then you see you can see the timeline and the build up of the prospects. You know, our last four draft have been impactful. Our last two trade deadlines have been impactful. And, you know, this draft, the draft in 23, you know, once we get all the players signed and out there playing in the minor leagues, we think it will be impactful again. and, you know, we have a trade deadline coming up in a couple of weeks that I think I'll help expedite the process. So, you know, when you've got yourself 22, you know, I was reminding the draft from the other day that there'd be 200 or 250 players drafted in this 23 draft that are older than Louis Garcia and C.J. Abrams that are already in the big leagues. And so when I say it's a good, young core of Major League talent, you know, it's going to be.

players that are going to be with us for a long time and hopefully be key contributors to our next championship. But on kind of the timeline, what would you tell, you know, a hardcore Nats fan on when they can expect for, you know, a team that's at the very least contending for a wildcard spot? I mean, I'm not going to give a specific date or year, but I think that, you know, we have an educated fan base here. And I read all the time, their breakdowns of our prospects in our young Major League teams. And I think that, I think that, you know, there's no time capsule for how players develop in the minor leagues.

They all have their pace and they all do it at their own timeline. But I think that you see the influx of these really talented, really good, really high thought of prospects in the minor league all coming together and ascending throughout the minor league ranks at the same time. You know, it's not far-fetched to believe that it's sooner rather than later. Tell me about Dylan Cruz. Well, Dylan Cruz, you know, is a heck of a career. He's won every award that you could win at the amateur ranks.

And, you know, as far as on the scouting end of it, you know, he's got great skills. an ability. He's a good hitter. He's got power. He's got to, he swings that strikes, and he's a good defender with a good arm and good speed. I think what separates him from a lot of other players with, you know, with that five tool ability is this kid's got, you know, baseball knowledge and the baseball IQ and a character that's hard to match. And he's won everywhere he's been. He's won every award there is to win. And, you know, he all culminated with a national championship. And, you know, you see him walking around with the hardware, smoking his cigar.

I could just envision him in years to come, doing that again at the big league level with a nationals uniform on. Who's his major league comp? I don't do cops. You know, he's Dylan Cruz, and he's going to be a hell of a player. down the road, you know, eight, ten years, you'll be on your podcast and you could say, who's the, he reminds me of Dylan Cruz, you know, MVP and All-Star. So that's, we'll be comparing people to Dylan Cruz soon.

I'd rather say that Mike Rizzo told me back in 2023 that Dylan Cruz was a Mike Trout comp. And look at the career he's had, he's had a better career than Mike Trout. So the trade deadline you mentioned is coming up in less than three weeks, I think, August 1st. And this is always a high drama period of the calendar. How important is this one going to be for you? They've all been important here in recent years, but how active do you guys think you'll be? Well, I think we'll be fairly active. We've got good players that teams covet.

And, you know, if we get the return that we feel is justified, we'll pull the trigger and make a deal. We've never been afraid to trade in this front office. We've made as many trades, probably more trades than most people have, and either on the buy-sell or the sell side. So we're excited about it. We look at it as an opportunity to improve ourselves again and to get closer to that championship-caliber roster. that we here in the front office ownership and the fan base want. And I think that you could start to see the light at the end of this tunnel.

And I think that when we come, we're going to come. When we get back, we're going to be back with a vengeance and going on another eight or 10-year run of sustained championship caliber baseball. What's that day like for you? Is it Billy Bean, you know, Brad Pitt and Moneyball? Is it that kind of day with multiple phones and getting everybody and putting them on hold? Is that day a rush for you? Yeah, trade deadline is great.

It's, you know, I always say that, you know, draft day is the most important day of the baseball calendar because it dictates your future. And trade deadline day is getting more and more, it's getting closer and closer to that importance. that we've had, again, we've had two very, very impactful trade deadline days, and hopefully we have the same success in this one and get us closer to get where we want to be. I know you've got to be somewhere, so just two more and we'll be done. The team this year, I think it's been more competitive than maybe most thought going into the year. There have been a ton of close losses.

There have been some, I mean, held a series with Texas right before the break was really, really impressive. Taking two of three in Philly was impressive with how well they've been playing. Do you agree with that? And if so, why has it been more competitive than maybe most thought? Well, we looked at the roster coming out of spring training, and we thought that certain things would have to fall right for us to. excuse me, to,

uh, to, uh, to, uh, to, uh, to,

uh, and, uh, and for the most part, uh, you know, they, they,

they have to an extent. You know, you could, you could see, uh, what, what we are, what we are missing,

uh, to be, you know, to be a legitimate, really good team is consistency. Now you see C.J. Abrams making, you know,

you know, you know, ESPN highlight plays, uh, highlight real plays at, uh, shortstop. and you see them, you know, squaring up balls and Louis Garcia the same thing.

And Gore striking out 11 and 12 and Gray and Irvin, you know, his last six of a start. You know, we picked the ball up and Candy is, you know, Candy's playing great third base. And Dom Smith, the saving infielder's, you know, airs by his play at first base. You could see it. We've just not seen it in a consistent enough basis. And that's the, that's the hallmark. of young players. Young players are prone to have streaks of crazy ability and crazy success.

But this is a long season, and it's difficult for any player. But when you're looking at 22 and 23-year-old inexperienced major leaguers to focus in on, you know, if you're a shortstop, focus in 100, 70, 80 pitches per game because that's what you have to do. You don't focus in game by game or any by any. It's pitch by pitch when you've figured it out and when you're successful and you're really good. It's pitch by pitch that you have to stay focused in.

And it's exhausting. And it's difficult for young players to achieve that on a nightly basis. But they'll go through weeks of it. They'll go through weeks of this and be outstanding. and then kind of, you know, have some lapses where, you know, you kick some routine balls or you give away at bat at the plate and that type of thing. And that's what this experience at the big league level is all about. And that's why the more experience you get up here, the more success you have up here,

will build us up for when we do take that next step, you know, like we did in 2010 and 11, And when we got to 2012, we went from 100 losses to, you know, 80 losses to 98 wins. And then we went on a run, you know, for 10 years. So that's the, that's the blueprint we have. We think it's well underway. We think it's, it's, the plan is going well, terrifically, actually. And, you know, these last couple of drafts and these last couple of trade deadlines have really put us in position to, to make, to make sure that we're going to be a championship caliber club soon.

All right. Last one, because I think as you describe that, and I think there's a lot of people that believe you and believe you'll do it again, but want to make sure that you're here and a part of it. And we know that your contract runs out at the end of the year, and you've got this ownership situation in flux. So, you know, how will that get figured out? How are you dealing with that? And how do you think it'll conclude?

I don't worry about it. I do my job. I continue to, you know, come in every day and, and lead the franchise, lead the organization, meet, meet with our front office, our scouts, our player development guys. You know, I meet with Davey a couple times a day. We talk strategy. I'm always around the clubhouse. So I control what I can, I control the controllable. And I control my demeanor every day and how I interact with people. And the decisions I make are always in the best interest of the Nationals' long-term view. And just because I'm on a one-year contract, that doesn't change that. I've been on a lot of one-year contracts in my life.

I was a scout for a long time, and I was on probably 21-year contracts in a row. And that doesn't scare me or bother me. My resume is my reputation, and I feel that speaks for itself. It does. Thank you for doing this. It's good to catch up. I hope you're well. Thanks, Kevin.

Good talking to you. The best general manager in town by far over a long period of time now. Mike Rizzo, I appreciate him doing that. All right. Up next, Ben Standing right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show. is brought to you by MyBooky. Go to mybooky.com or my bookie.orgie.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. And you can secure a first deposit bonus of up to $1,000.

You have to use my promo code, Kevin D.C. All of their week one point spreads are up. All of the college week one. Actually, there's a week called week zero in college football. That's the week before Labor Day when there are some games like Notre Dame Navy. Notre Dame is a 20-point favorite over Navy in Ireland in week zero of the college football season. But all of those lines are up. All of the NFL preseason prop bets are up. And no, there is not a prop bet on whether or not the sale of the commanders will close a week or so from today. But go to mybooky.com, mybooky.orgie.ag.

They'll take good care of you if you use my promo code, Kevin D.C. Jumping on with us right now is our good friend Ben Standing from The Athletic. Follow Ben on Twitter at Ben Standig. And listen to his podcast, Standing Room Only, which you can get anywhere you get a podcast, just like you can get my podcast anywhere you get a podcast. Ben, of course, writes for the Athletic. I'm a subscriber to the Athletic, and I would urge you to be one as well if you are not. So I have a few things that I want to get to before we get to your column,

which you put out in the athletic this morning, which is a, I talked about it briefly in the open, but it is an all Dan Snyder era team. This is a positive. These are the best players at each position during the Dan Snyder era. So we will get to that and we will debate some of your selections here in a moment. But two things before that. First of all, your reaction to the post story, Maski and Nikki Javala's story,

about legal snags potentially complicating the sale. Yeah. Well, you know, first of all, I don't know who they spoke to, obviously, and there's so many different people you could be talking to about this matter from the team around the league or the Harris side or whatever. So I don't know who they talk to. Just based on the people that I've checked in with and my own sense of the lay of the land is

I'm not getting too worked up over this. I mean, obviously, you know, every time you like them on and you say to me some version of, hey, well, you know, what do we think here if it's going to happen? I always throw in the caveat. You never know because of Dan Snyder and all the things that are going on with him, including the topic of getting indemnification

or the league getting indemnification from him with regards to the group emails or perhaps anything else that's out there. But that said, I just really don't have a sense that this is like an alarmist issue. Everything I know, they're still taking the vote on the 20th. And for them to get to that point, I just don't see that they would vote against the vote no. Or, you know, somehow that wouldn't pass at that point. So, you know, look, I think there could be still something in there about the indemnification aspect of it, but I don't know that I see that as being a huge issue. And I will just say from the Snyder perspective, you know, for me, at some point during this whole saga,

the primary reason why he's selling in my best gas estimation, talking to people, whatever, that it's more about the debt than it is all, you know, all the, you know, all the conclusions. congressional Mary Joe white stuff that we've been talking about. And that, I don't think that's changing. Like, you know, I'm not thinking he's going to be cut in coupons in a few weeks. But, like, you know, getting out from under seems like the bigger issue. So I just don't know that that's going to, therefore, from his perspective, have this and get mucked up by other matters. But, yeah, so I'm not seeing this is a big deal, but I'm curious what you think because that's where I'm coming down.

That's kind of where I am, too. I'm not overly concerned. look, the league wants him out. They do not want this to drag on any further. They want it to be over. They want Dan Snyder removed from their group. They want DC resuscitated. It's a market that's been an underperformer for pretty much at least half of the Snyder era,

certainly the last five to six years. and I think Dan's ready to go. I certainly believe that Dan's family is ready to wrap this thing up. So I think whether it's exactly a week from today, I think a week from today will get the vote, whether or not it's exactly a week from today on the closing of this or eight days or nine days, I think it's going to be wrapped up in short order

because everybody is motivated to wrap this thing up, including, by the way, at this point, Dan. And I'm a little bit confused, to be totally honest with you, as to what really the indemnification requests slash demands are for at this point. They've been for so many different things that we've all guessed all along the way. Now, this story is specific to the John Gruden emails. and liability associated with that. But Neil and Rockville was on with us this morning on radio,

and he's like, look, these emails were real. Like, Gruden actually doesn't have a case for defamation. Now, he may have a case for something that Neil, you know, called, I think it was false light, you know, intentional infliction of, you know, distress, those kinds of things. And the league may have to settle with him because I don't think they want a discovery period. But yeah, I'm with you.

I still feel like the bottom line is everybody wants this thing wrapped up. Dan doesn't want to keep this team anymore. His family hasn't wanted this team to be kept for a while now. And he got the price that he was looking for. I mean, it's going to be nice to have a $5 billion, you know, minus all the debt that he's got, whatever he nets out of this, $4.5 billion, whatever it is, you know, and get the hell out of town and start a new life. Because we've talked about it so much during the course of the last several years.

I just don't know how anybody could have had fun owning this team if you were an owner like Dan Snyder. I know that there was a period of time that he was oblivious to kind of the way everybody thought about him, but not in recent years. and to have one investigation and one lawsuit after another popping up. I mean, this is a miserable experience that they have lived. And have your wife, and have your wife food when she's shown on the scoreboard. Yeah. I would just say like two sort of thoughts come to my mind to listen to you. So for one, like, so the two main issues that we still think are still outstanding,

the Mary Joe White report and then this John Gruden situation. Well, you know, I understand that Roger Goodell said that only Mary Joe White knows what's in that report. I'll take that for his worth, but I think they must have a sense as to what it is. And, you know, they may release the full report to some degree, but, you know, they can massage it if they wanted to with Dan on the way out to limit any potential, I don't know, damage there should they want, you know, and then on the, on the Gruden stuff, I think the one thing that was interesting to me with regards to the ESPN report, which had some interesting stuff in there for sure.

But I almost look at it as, or before I was like, I was like on the verge of saying that I would probably bet my house that it came from his world. But reading that story, I think it opened up more possibilities, right? I mean, it has them saying to Morris Smith was bragging about being involved with the email that was involved with him, I guess. And then, you know, the part with the NFL and the Raiders and that feud, certainly it seems like the Raiders think that this is coming possibly from the NFL.

So, like, I almost think, like, again, I would still have a guess, this is just a guess, that, you know, that it did come from the Snyder world, and that was something that I thought, like, within, like, you know, whenever those emails started coming out by this time we got to the second and the third one, I was already thinking that. But also, look, he's gone and testified to Congress that he didn't do it, I believe. So, well, he didn't do it. It doesn't mean that somebody close to him didn't do it on his behalf.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think the phrasing was like that he's unaware, that he didn't tell anybody or he's unaware. I mean, he doesn't even have email. But anyway, my point is that like, it's not like, it's not like the ESPN report came out and said there's proof that Dan Snyder did this. So I don't know what the, you know, where this is going to the point that it would become, like you said, so problematic at the last, at the 11th hour here, that it wouldn't get done. Look, whether or not, it's funny, Neil and Rockville are, you know, one of our legal contributors actually said to me on radio this morning. He doesn't think that Snyder leaked the emails.

I think, you know, what we got out of that story was something similar to what you got out of it, which is, look, everybody had motivation. to leak the emails. DeMorris Smith is essentially on record admitting that he leaked the emails, but it doesn't mean that Goodell didn't leak the emails or the league didn't, and it doesn't mean that Dan didn't do it also. It also doesn't mean that Dan didn't sort of help with that, you know, blackmail PowerPoint presentation and the presentation of certain emails specifically that essentially he didn't give it to them knowing that they would leak it, which would also. benefit him because he wanted Bruce to be, you know, sort of cast in this very negative light. But we talked about this yesterday, Tommy and I did. You and I talked about it off the air yesterday.

The bottom line is there was a lot of motivation and a lot of obvious signs that Snyder more likely than not. If he didn't leak it, was certainly helpful in it or enjoyed that these emails got leaked. in the moment. Now, after the fact, not so much because they did not benefit him long term. And if anybody tried to make the case, well, the problem with your argument that Dan leaked emails is that it essentially cost him the team. Yeah, but you don't know Dan. He didn't think that in the moment. He thought, you know, all he was thinking about was, I want to make Bruce look like the bad guy. And I'd like the league to look bad too because they're trying to run me out of here. and I just basically got my way with the Beth Wilkinson punishment, whatever.

I think like you do, that this thing is going to be wrapped up in short order. So before we get to your column in The Athletic, I briefly mentioned in the open of the podcast, Quinn and Williams getting this deal. I don't know if you saw this. Four years, $96 million. So, you know, he's at $24 million. Simmons is at $23.5 million. and then Duran is at 22 and a half.

Maybe Dexter Lawrence is right there with Duran too, I forget. Somewhere around. I think Jeffrey Simmons, but yeah. Simmons, I know, was a little bit more. And so now Quinn and Williams will be a little bit more. But ultimately, like, Duran got a pretty good deal. I mean, to be behind Aaron Donald, Jeffrey Simmons, and Quinn and Williams, you know, and maybe right there with Dexter Lawrence is exactly where I think, you know,

he probably deserves to be. Yeah, I mean, look, timing is everything. And, you know, one of the things, this was a year, and I wrote about this, was one of the sort of bigger takeout stories I wrote last season, was that this is going to be the off-season sources thought that of the defensive tackle, like where the year before the receivers got paid, and this year was the defensive tackled. And as we know, Washington needed to do something with Durand Payne before free agency started, because otherwise he was going to be on the franchise tag,

and that's a much bigger number for this year than what they could massage with a longer-term deal. So they got him done basically before the rest of the market kicked in. And who knows it, right, if they don't do that, I don't know how much more he would potentially get, but, you know, as these deals coming after him have all been essentially the same or higher, yeah, I mean, it probably goes up. He probably got almost like a little bit of a bump just from like, okay, let's get this done now

and not have to play with it later. And also they kind of had to, right? I mean, like I said, so, yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely a good deal for Duran Payne, for sure. And, you know, I mean, you know, for Washington, they needed to do something, again, because of the salary cap situation. So, you know, so good for them just to get that part done as well. So, yeah, the year of the defensive tackle, and Duran Payne, you know, certainly not, again, not only did he have a really good year

going to his own free agency, but it happened to be at a time where basically all the defensive tackles in the league not named Aaron Donald's of the top ones were all eligible. Chris Jones is still available out there. I would get, bet he's going to be the second high-paid defensive tackle

when it's all done. That's right. Forgot about him. He still has to get paid. I've talked a lot about in the last couple of days just Duran and John and that ranking by the coaches, general managers, and scouts and the ESPN countdown of the top 10 at each position and Duran being ahead of John.

I'm okay with that. Like, I'm okay with Duran being considered to be, you know, slightly better than John Allen. I did a poll. I don't know if you saw it or not. You know, pick one, if you can only pick one, John Allen or Duran Payne. And basically 78, 79% of the people that responded, said Alan. Who would you pick? Oh, boy. That's a great, great question.

And to be honest, not to be one of those people, but it sort of ties into my story that we'll get to about the All-Snyder team, because obviously they're guys, those are two guys you've got to consider, but maybe there's only room for one of them. I guess I would go with John Allen because of not just the production, but he is obviously a more vocal presence for the team. Where Duran is more of, you know, does his thing and it's not a, you know, captainy type of personality, which is not a knock, but just the reality.

So you get a little bit maybe more from Alan. But, boy, I really intended to go with pain to be super honest, but I'll go, Alan. All right. One other quick thing before we get to your column. This Dalvin Cook thing keeps coming up. Denton mentioned to me this morning. Bucky Brooks is the latest. Mike Lombardi a few weeks ago to say Dalvin Cook to Washington would make sense.

I personally don't think it makes sense at all. I don't think they need it back. And I'm a fan of Dalvin Cook, but he's kind of a, he's one of these feaster famine guys. Like there's a lot of, you know, zero yard and one yard and two yard runs, and then there's a big one. And that's why his average is, you know, where it is year and year out. But do you think they need a running back? And do you think Dalvin Cook's even a possibility?

Because I don't. No, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think so. I mean, you know, look, if Dalvin Cook said, look, I'm willing to play for you guys for one year at, you know, some number that was workable or doable or whatever. I mean, I guess I would consider anything, but realistically, no, I don't, I'm not considering it, I'm not personally considering it at all under the assumption that he's going to want to get paid. And again, that's partly because, you know, I think Robinson and Gibson, I don't

think they're good enough because they're better than good enough, but they are good enough at, you know, that combination alone, low-alone, whatever else you get from the Chris Rodriguez and so on. but, you know, look, they only have, I say only, they only have like 11 million in cap space for this year. So even if you sign them to a multi-year deal, right, you can push that money down the line. But one of the big perks, I think, if you're Josh Harris for next year, is they've got like 80 million in cap space available. I don't know if I'm going to want to bother with any of that, you know, touch any of that,

if I don't have to. I guess the one thing that's going to be interesting to that extent is, We see this a lot, right? A new owner comes in and if given the opportunity to make a big play, they often do. Like we saw the Phoenix Sun's owner is the current example of that between the Kevin Durant and the Bradley Beal deals. This would be a rare possibility here to get a guy who's a legit playmaker in Dalvin Cook at this point of the offseason. But I don't know that I see Josh Harris saying let's start using some of our cap face in that way. plus, I think he, I feel like he's going to be even more, he's not going to be one of those

unhinged owners who just start spending freely because he's done this already, you know, with other teams. So I just don't see that it makes sense on multiple levels. All right. Let's talk about your really fun column in the athletic. Ben had the idea of ranking, of putting together an all Dan Snyder era team, the best players of the Dan Snyder era. I believe you've got something else coming next week that may be the opposite of this.

But we can talk about that next week. So let's go down the list. First of all, give everybody what, you know, the parameters for coming up with the all Dan Snyder era team were. Yeah, so obviously, you start in 1999. Now, you know, we can quibble over. He was, you know, got that, he took over after they already made some moves, but whatever. Both enough. So 1999, I didn't include players who, you know,

maybe played in the Snyder era, but were primary, their best years, were before, i.e. Brian Mitchell and Darrell Green, you know, among the locals. So I did not include, I did not include those kinds of guys. Other than that, I mean, really is just, you know, some guys, it was a matter of, was there one year so good that that Trump, somebody who was pretty good for three or four years, you know, there's, you know, I tried to look at like anybody who was, you know, an obvious, you know, pro bowl or things like that. But, yeah, I mean, it was just an interesting journey to go back in memory lane. And, you know, obviously, yeah, there will be a part two, and it's the naughty list.

But, yeah, you know, some interesting names here for sure. All right. Let's start with quarterback. Tell everybody who you're – I'm not going to – we won't go through this whole list because I want people to subscribe to the athletic and read the column. But let's talk about a couple of the key positions, which I actually think created maybe some of the best opportunity for debate. So who was the all Dan Snyder-era quarterback? Well, let me turn this on you. This is a perfect example of one year versus several, right?

I mean, so where are you at? Like, the three quarterbacks that I sort of put into this mix were Brad Johnson, he, you know, first year comes in and make the playoffs, you know, they win a playoff game, only one of two playoff games that anybody won in the years of Under Snyder. RG3, needless to say, you know, offensive rookie of the year, he was quite electrifying, as somebody might have said at the time. And then you have Kirk Cousin, who's been the best long, you know, the person who put together the most years of being a pretty good quarterback. So, you know, how do you look at that?

Well, I'm just going to tell everybody you have RG3. the answer and you had Brad and Kirk as the honorable mention. Well, I think it's really debatable, but I don't have a problem with Griffin. You know, Kirk had basically three seasons as a starter here. You know, Brad Johnson really shouldn't even count because I'd love to just completely eliminate 1999 as a Dan Snyder season because he got here at the same time, by the way, the Harris Group's going to get here. And, you know, he tried to undo the Brad Johnson trade. So they went to the playoffs and won a game despite him in his first year of owning the team,

and it turned out to be half of the playoff wins he would have over his 24 years of ownership. But, you know, it's not like Cousins or Brad Johnson had a long run either. And Griffin's 2012 season, which is the only season that really counts because 2013 was an utter disaster. 2014 was a disaster as well. In 2015, it even played in play. I don't really have an issue because that year was so spectacular from a result standpoint, from a style standpoint, from an excitement standpoint. I mean, if we're going just on pure numbers and production, it's Kirk.

I mean, Kirk had three years here where he set multiple passing records for the franchise. But Griffin's one year, you know, Trump's, you know, you can make the case that it trumps Brad Johnson's 1999 or the Cousins 15, 16, 17 seasons because it was, you know, he was the rookie of the year, 20 touchdown. He had a season that no rookies ever had in the history of the game almost. And it was, it was spectacular to watch. I know most people would expect me to immediately, you know, shoot back. No, it's Kirk Cousins, but I understand the debate of Robert Griffin III. And just 2012 in general as really the year you could say was the most exciting season of the Snyder era. You can make that case. Yeah, I mean, I think like if you, yeah,

I would almost say if you stack up RG's three seasons, both in terms of what he does on the field, but also what it meant off the field. He obviously was a mega star, not just locally, but nationally at that point. I don't know that anybody had a season like that, one season like that, at any point here in the Snyder era. And I don't even know how back you'd have to go, you know, to get into the, you know, pre-Snyder, the Joe Gibbs, Richard Petitbone, North Turner era, to say that somebody had a more impactful year than that.

So, you know, yeah, to me, that nothing was a no-brainer. I definitely pondered this. Everything kind of you just said with RG3 and cousins in particular, but ultimately it was such a huge year, regardless of how, you know, again, this is a good team. The other parts are all the thing. In fact, I think hypothetically, I will at least say that, like, the idea of could RG3 be the quarterback

that both teams came to mind. But at the moment, we'll say he's on the quarterback for this team. Yeah. So I don't have a major problem with that. So the next position that I wrote down here, because I think that it definitely is debatable. And this is a debate that I'd have about not only a former cohort, but a very good friend in Chris Cooley.

You've got Chris Cooley being the tight end of the Dan Snyder era. Now, obviously, longevity and even production, it's true. but in the same way that you selected RG3 over Cousins, Jordan Reed's debatably after Sean Taylor, the most talented player that has played here, after Sean and Trent Williams. Jordan Reed is probably top three talent, and the few years that he had were spectacular seasons when he was healthy.

Yeah, no, for sure. I wrote in the blur that it's possible Cooley's popularity peaked after retirement because of the, you know, coming on with you and his film sessions became, you know, the talk of the... Oh, he was really popular as a player. No, no, no, but I'm saying, but like, he was on top of that very popular already.

And, like, so, like, I'm not trying, I'm not factoring in the post-retirement stuff, but I'm just saying it's the most kind of hard to separate because it's gone. I feel like another level. But, yeah, I mean, he was, on the single year, I would probably agree that Jordan Reed's best year was better than what Cooley did in any single year. That said, you know, his numbers historically are pretty impressive. He's got the most receptions among any tie-end in franchise history, fifth in receptions for any player, ninth in receiving yards. And also I think also in the touchdown catches. So I think he's like, you know, again, like we're at the quarterback,

whereas like RG3 was a Supernova for the one year and Cousins was pretty good for three years. It's not the same in totality for Cousins whereas here, I just think Cooley's numbers overall put me in the position of thinking that that was better than Jordan Reed. Obviously, Jordan Reed, unfortunately, you know, the injuries really wrecked him and what he could have been. but that's kind of how I went on there. For me, it was just between those two. I mentioned some other names, as honorable mentions. But, yeah, to me it was those two.

And, yeah, in this case, the overall career trumped the one year. Jordan Reed's stretch of playing, you know, in not 16 games, which he never did here. But his stretch from 2014 through 2016, in the 2016 season, he missed games during that season, too. but he was incredible during 2016. Now, the most productive season of his career was 2015. He had 87 receptions for 952 yards and 11 touchdowns during that season. And that season trumps any Cooley season in terms of yardage or touchdowns. I mean, Cooley's best year was 2008.

He had 849 yards in receptions, but only had one touchdown. the year before that he had eight touchdowns. His first four years with Gibbs, he was highly productive after Gibbs, not so much. But Jordan Reed, you know, when you consider just the impact he had in the games that he played, I think his impact was much greater than coolies on like the final outcome of the games that he was involved in. But if you're taking sort of the longevity and the consistency and the availability, it would be coolly. That's an interesting conversation because, you know, people, I think sometimes just write Jordan off as, well, he was just always hurt. Well, you know, 2014, he played in 11 games and had 50 catches for 465 yards, okay?

But then started a two-year run where he ended up with, you know, 1,338 yards in catches and 17 touchdowns in 26 games. I mean, and his lone pro bowl in 2016. And really, he was headed towards greatness. I mean, I think most of us would agree with that. He was headed towards the elite of the elite in the game at that position had he not had the concussions, which, you know, started once again in 2017, and that was it. It's really too bad. That's, along with Sean Taylor, I think, the what-if,

of the Snyder era. But I don't have a problem with Cooley, and I'm glad you put Cooley there, but I think you could make the case for Jordan Reed. Yeah, I always have this in my head. I always have this thought of, when I think about NBA players, I always think like there's the,

there are guys who are what I call them in my head a one and a half players, and by that I mean that when they're on the court, you have got to constantly think about double teaming them. You can't just look at them and say they're still, I was going to put one person on them, and that'll be fine. You have to, they're so good, you have to alter your situation for that. I'm not saying Jordan Reed was in that category because obviously he just didn't play enough,

but I think based on what we saw for those two years that you were discussing, that he was becoming a one-and-a-half player because he had, he was so, you know, he had the size and the speed mismatch, depending on what you did, and I just think he was that central figure for this offense, even more than, you know, whoever else was out there, receiver, it was Garsohn or Deshaun or whomever, for those stretches.

But unfortunately, it just, you know, he didn't play long enough to really put him in that category, ultimately. So, yeah, so there you go. During the Snyder era, there were two, you know, unbelievable tackles. Chris Samuels and Trent Williams. And you put them both in there because you got to have two offensive tackles. But my question would be, who's the starting left tackle?

Great question. Great question. I guess I would have to go with Trent. Well, you know, it's sort of tough. I think it's based on play and feeling and things about that, I would go to Trent Williams. But Trent Williams also, you know, he had the suspension for, you know, for failing the league drug policy.

Like, I got, you know, if we're splitting hairs here, we're looking for nitpicks. I mean, that's got to be, that type of situation has got to be in there. But, and obviously the end, obviously, like, and I should have said this earlier, for me, for a lot of this, it wasn't just, you know, did the player get this many statistics? It's also the full impact of the overall situation because it's the, I'm calling it the Snyder team. It isn't just the player. This will be more obvious when we get to the negative list.

But, like, for example, this is what you asked, but like, well, have linebacker, you know, when I'm thinking about LaVar Arrington, if you just went based on the player, the talent on the field, well, he's probably a no-brainer starter. But so much of that was, you know, an utter, you know, disaster because of the way things went down, and in his case, I'm also factoring in the constant chirping at the organization afterwards. So I factor in a lot of these things.

And so maybe I would go get train lines for some of that, but I guess I would take turn away. Yeah, I think I would, too. I think Chris Samuels was a great player. Trent Williams here, I don't know that Trent Williams left here as a Hall of Fame player. In fact, I would say that he did not. He left here as a great all-time franchise left tackle, but he's now a Hall of Fame left tackle after the few years he's had in San Francisco,

where he is actually elevated his game. Now, being a part of that system and that coaching staff has, been a big help. I also think it's interesting that like whenever you talk to anybody that was around Trent Williams coach-wise, they'll just say he's the best player I ever coached. Like basically, Jake Rudin will say he's the best player I ever coached. Mike Shanahan will say he's probably the most talented player I ever coached. You know, I felt that way, by the way, whenever I was, you know, you were there a lot more.

obviously. But anytime I saw Trent Williams up and close and then watched from close by, there's never been in the franchise's history a more athletic left tackle, although you could make the case for Jim Lachey as an athletic left tackle. But I think Trent Williams would be the starting left tackle over Chris Hamils as well. Here's a position that I actually have a bit of a bone to pick with you. Cornerback. Cornerback, all right? Now, I've no,

you listed Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, and DeAngelo Hall, and then honorable mention you had Carlos Rogers, Sean Springs, and Kendall Fuller. Look, I hate to say this, because there isn't anybody I love more than having Fred Smoot on the show. No offense, by the way. I love Smoot, and we all love Smoot.

But I think Sean Springs was a better cornerback, including here, than Smoot was. And I think it's close. Don't get me wrong. But I think Sean's his run here in Washington playing for Greg Williams is underrated how good he was here. And by the way, that was, you know, he played with Smoot, you know, when he first got here. but I think the 2007 defense probably was the last really good defense before last year's defense that this team had. And Sean Springs was an integral part of that. Yeah, I think that was, cornerback may have been the toughest decisions for both teams.

And that was certainly one where you definitely went back and forth. you know, look, as he said, you know, Sean Springs is around, and we still will see him out there at the practice, still even time of time, but smooth is, you know, presence, obviously. So maybe, I don't know, if you want to say, some reason to buy is kicked into a degree because, you know, like you said, we're the great guest, and enjoy talking of him, and he's around. I think he's close, but he only played, you know, he played here, and then went to Minnesota, then came back, you know, and was on that 2007 defense as well.

I think Smoot was really good. By the way, he's a Marty selection. Marty thought highly of him. I think, you know, guys like Smoot and Lovar really were hurt by Marty being run in 2001. It's very possible that Smoot would have had an incredibly productive long career in one place, had Marty Schottenheimer and Kurt Schottenheimer and that whole group stayed here. But I just think Springs was, I think he was underrated in some ways how good he was. when he was here. I'm looking at his numbers, because I don't even know what his numbers are.

I just know... I was just going to mention, like, in pro football reference has a stat where they call approximate value. It's their way to try to attack a single number to every player, right? So between the two of them, Sean Springs had the best single season in 2004.

They gave him a 10. It's not out of 10. That's what they gave him. was a 10 and he had two years of a seven, then two years of a three and a four. Fred Smoot had a nine and a seven and then a six and a five in the first four years. So like the peak of them wasn't that different, and Springs had two years below Smoot's war. I'm not counting Smoot's final three years when he came back, which I'm not saying don't count,

but that's a separate version of him. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I get the argument I wouldn't stand on a, I wouldn't stand on a stump and say, you're terrible, you're wrong, get out of here, what a hack. But, yeah, I went with Smoot and, you know, it's close. But, yeah, I, you know, like I said, recently biased or not, that that's where I landed. Smoot certainly, you know, had the better opposite corner when early in his career when Champ Bailey was on the opposite side.

What was the most difficult call for you? Oh, good question. I mean, well... You just said Corner wasn't easy. No, no. Corner was definitely a challenge. I'll say this. You know, I mean, I'm doing this like, you know, for real. This is a fun actor.

I'm doing it for real. I'm trying to come up with a best answer for each position. And I was really struggling with one spot. And then I just decided I landed on an answer that I felt pretty good with. And that was, it's not just the players, but it's also the coaches and executives. and for general manager, I ended up landing on nobody. Yeah, I saw that. And I'm not saying that to be tongue-in-cheek or silly.

I'm saying, like, for real, like, ultimately, this is where, from the Dan Snyder perspective of him being involved, this is where his involvement hurt them the most. We can go back as we know from the beginning, all the way at least through the end of the Jay Gruden era, with the Dwayne Haskins pick of his interference being obvious. And I guess my point, I was really sitting there trying to go up. Who am I picking here? Vinny or Bruce or is Marty for the one year? Marty for the one year who was in charge of everything.

That would be the answer. But you're right. I mean, he didn't technically have that title. Well, it was just the one year. And, you know, I mean, like, you know, we know what happened. But, you know, I mean, you know, we need to, I think he was more. successful as a coach than he was a personnel guy. But okay, anyway. So I think ultimately, like, after a while I'm thinking about it. I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I can do what I want. So on some

level, I spent wasting with time thinking about something that I landed on nobody. This is a good read. Good job. Appreciate it. And I will talk to you soon, I am sure. Thank you to Ben. Thanks to Mike Rizzo as well. One last thing before I leave you for the day. Three years ago today, July 13th, 2020, the summer of COVID, the summer of a lot of things. But it was on this day, three years ago, that the Washington Redskins decided officially to change their team name. They put out the following statement, quote, on July 3rd, we announced the commencement of a thorough review of the team's name. Today we are announcing we will be retiring the Redskins name and logo upon completion of this review. Three years ago.

Doesn't seem like three years ago. God, that was a wild time. But anyway, that's it for the day. Actually, I'm going to leave you with something that I found that just popped up on YouTube. And I got sucked into it a few days ago. And it's Howard CoSell. opening up Monday night football on ABC in October of 1978 from RFK Stadium prior to a massive matchup between the Cowboys and the Redskins. Whenever I find this stuff, I was thinking about throwing it at the end of the podcast.

And so I'm going to do it today. I'll be back tomorrow. Thanks. Live from the National Capitol, Washington, D.C., a glorious nighttime view of Washington at the top of your screen the Washington Monument, then the Capitol Building, as we pan down to where we are all gathered, our FK Stadium, a jam-packed crowd. And not at home in the White House tonight, but rather here at our FK Stadium, the president of the United States, Jimmy Carter, together with his wife, Rosalind. is everybody here as the booing is for the Dallas Cowboys. Well, that's why one of the richest, most traditional rivalries in the National Football League,

the Super Bowl champion Dallas Cowboys against the surprisingly unbeaten Washington Redskins as we take a quick look at the standings in the NFC Eastern Division. There is Washington at 4-0. Dallas having lost to Los Angeles at three and one. So we've got a big event tonight. Washington against Dallas Monday night football, the president in attendance. 20 seconds to stand by all cameras.

Stand by in videotape. Stand by slow-low. Stand-bought open your mics on the field. Stand-by in graphics. Ready with your opening so first. Stand-by the announcers in the booth place. Take, three.