The Kevin Sheehan Show - Sonny

Episode Date: February 7, 2026

Kevin opened with reaction to Sonny Jurgensen's passing. Ernie Baur, local TV exec legend and longtime close friend of Sonny's joined the show to remember him. Jay Gruden previewed/picked the Super Bowl and also spent time looking back at his time on his brother's 2002 Tampa Bay Bucs championship team staff. Additionally, Jay discussed the Commanders' hiring of defensive coordinator Daronte Jones. Kevin finished with a Super Bowl "Smell Test" pick. For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. George Allen was the fire with comeback fever. A fever fueled on by the searing darts from his ace, Sonny Jurgensen. With less than 20 seconds remaining and no more timeouts, Sonny had one last chance. Number 38, Larry Smith barely crossed the imaginary plane of the end zone

to complete a 2017 Washington victory. The win was but further evidence of the sheer greatness of a healthy Christian Adolf Sonny Jorgensen. That highlight from NFL films with Pat Summerall narrating came from a game in 1974, a game that Sunny always called his personal Super Bowl. The show's presenting sponsor is always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation, Windonation.com, if you need new windows. As most of you know by now, I'm sure, Sonny Jurgensen passed away at the age of 91 years old, his family announced earlier this morning.

Simply put, Sunny's an all-time beloved Redskin Giant. I would put Rigo right there with him at the top of that list. Darrell Green, Art Monk, not that far behind. But Sunny's always been at the top of that list. That list of the most adored, the most cherished redskinned. of all time. Top of that list really for any athlete in the history of our city when it comes to being treasured and loved the way he was. It was a sad day today to find out about his passing, but it's also a day to celebrate quite a life. And helping me do that will be Ernie Bauer on the

show with me today. Ernie was a close friend for decades with Sonny Jurgensen. Ernie, of course, a legend in his own right in the TV business in our city. He'll join me in the next segment. We'll do some Super Bowl on the show today, including having Jay Gruden back on the show for the final time this year. I recorded Jay before the news of Sunny's passing, so my conversation with Jay won't include anything on Sonny Jurgensen. But Jay will break down the Super Bowl, give us his thoughts, give us his pick.

I'll have a smell test pick on the game in the final. segment of the show along with a final score prediction. But this opening segment's going to be all about Sonny Jurgensen. And that highlight that I came in with, Sonny told me many times. That was his personal Super Bowl game. He didn't just tell me that. He told anybody that asked him about the game. He wouldn't bring it up.

Sonny was always kind of too humble to bring up his own stuff. He let everybody else talk about him, but if you brought up that game with him, he lit up because that game came nearly two years after Washington lost to Miami in Super Bowl 7. Those were the 72 perfect season. Miami Dolphins. Washington lost that game 14 to 7 without an offensive touchdown. Sunny did not play in Super Bowl 7. Billy Kilmer was the starting quarterback. But on October 13th, 1974 at RFK Stadium, the first game since that Super Bowl lost to the Dolphins against Miami. The dolphins were good. They were two-time defending champions. They came into RFK 3-1 with Bob Greasy, Don Shula coaching the team, Larry Zonka, Howard Twilly,

the great defense. They were five-point favorites in that game. But Sunny started that game, and that was going to be his Super Bowl opportunity, a chance to prove what Super Bowl 7 would have been had he been healthy enough to start and play in that game. And he was outstanding. He threw for 303 yards and down 17 to 13 in the final minute of the game. He drove the team 80 yards and threw the game-winning touchdown pass to Larry Smith with just a few seconds left.

He's referred to that game as the game of his career, the Super Bowl game for him. He was 40 years old, and it came during his final season in the NFL. You know, I went back and looked at not only his Washington career, and for me, it really began with Sonny at the end of his career as a fan. I don't remember Sonny of the 60s. You have to be a bit older than I am to remember those years.

But I went back and actually looked at what he did in Philadelphia. And I was actually blown away with some of what he did in Philadelphia. You know, let me just begin with this. Many of you know his story. Some of you don't. But, you know, it starts with Sunny being first and foremost an all-time quarterback, a Hall of Famer who was often described as one of the greatest pure passers in the history of the league up there with Dan Marino and Joe Namath and Aaron

Rogers just in terms of throwing a football. Nobody ever made it look prettier than Sunny did. In fact, this was an NFL film special about Sunny from back in the 80s. You'll hear, among others, Bobby Mitchell describing Sunny as a passer. Sunny Jurgensen probably played as well as anybody on Sunday after having a long visit the local lounge on Saturday night. Sonny Jurgensen got the most out of life and an 18-year career in the NFL. At the height of the Cold War,

Jurgensen's right arm was Washington's most dangerous weapon. With 255 career touchdown passes, many still regard Jurgensen as the greatest pure passer of all time. There's been a lot of people who can throw the football. And there's probably some who could probably throw it further. But I haven't seen anyone who could handle a football in the manner that the redhead could. And I've often said he could hit a net at 50 if he wanted to.

I don't know if Bobby Mitchell was referring to from 50 yards away or at 50 years old, but it was a really good line. Sunny's late night escapades sort of kicked off that. clip, a description of him being in a lounge late the night before a game and then coming out and lighting an opponent up. Those stories are legendary about Sunny, and I'm sure Ernie will share some of those with us, but make no mistake, it was Sunny's right arm that put him into the Hall of Fame. And I want to talk about his career a little bit, including something that I found very interesting about his time in Philadelphia, as mentioned, but it started with Sunny being an all-around

incredible athlete. Sunny didn't look like an all-around great athlete, but he was. Sonny in high school was a three-sport star, football, basketball, baseball. He got D-1 basketball offers, including to the University of North Carolina. He went to Duke. He was a two-time all-ACC quarterback and then got drafted by the Eagles in 1957. And he sat behind a Hall of Famer, Norm Van Brockland, his first few years before Van Brockland retired. Sonny was on that 1960 Eagles team that won the NFL championship beating the Green Bay Packers. But Sonny didn't play in that game.

He was a backup to Van Brocklin who retired after the 1960 NFL championship win. And that's when Sonny took over. It was the 1961 season. He's in Philadelphia. It's his first year starting. And in his very first year, starting in the first year, starting in the NFL, and it was the NFL's first season of 14 games. All of the seasons previous to 1961 were 12 games seasons.

He set the NFL record in 1961 with 3,723 passing yards. He shattered the Eagles record by over 1,100 yards with those 3,723 passing yards. He also tied the NFL record with 32. touchdown passes in 1961. That was his first year as a starter and he was the first team all-pro quarterback in

the NFL. But listen to this about that season. His 32 touchdown passes in 1961. It is still number two all time in Eagles history for touchdown passes

in a season. Only Carson Wentz and what he did in 2017, by the way, that was the season he broke his leg after playing in 13 games, but he had thrown 33 touchdown passes. He had broken Sunny's record, which stood for all of those years. That record stood for 56 years until Carson Wentz broke it in 2017 with 33 touchdowns. So Sunny's 32 is still number two all-time, Randall didn't throw for 32 touchdowns in a season. Donovan McNabb didn't do it.

Jalen Hertz hasn't done it. And Carson Wentz did it plus one, just one time. But in that 61 season in Philadelphia, that was Sunny's opportunity to potentially win an NFL championship as a healthy starting quarterback with no competition. The Eagles went 10 and 4 that year, but that was a year in which the year. The NFL had an Eastern Division, a Western Division, and the two division winners played each other in the NFL championship game, and the Eagles at 10 and 4 finished second behind the Giants who went 10, 3, and 1.

They missed out by a half game. The Giants went on to face Lombardi's Packers in the title game, and Green Bay won the NFL championship. Sonny was so close in that first season. as a starter to being a part of a championship game. He was a total outlier in the 60s with his passing numbers and was voted to the all-1960s NFL team. Of course, a lot of what he did in the 60s was done here in Washington,

and it started with one of the all-time trades in D.C. sports history. The skins sent Norm Sneed and Claude Clawed to the Eagles in 1964, for Sonny Jurgensen. It was April 1st, 1964. Sunny found out about it on April Fool's Day and thought he was being fooled, but it was real, and it started a 50-plus year run in D.C. as a player and, of course, as a broadcaster as well. The 60s Redskins teams he played on weren't very good, but it was not because of him. You know, they were terrible year in and year out on defense, but he put up numbers. He put up points. He had Charlie Taylor, he had Bobby Mitchell, he had Jerry Smith.

I mean, they were unstoppable offensively. In 67, Sunny broke his own NFL record for passing yards in a season, throwing for 3,747 yards. So he owned in 1967 at the end of that season, the top two NFL all-time passing yard seasons. He also set the NFL mark that year for pass attempts and pass completions. In 68, he got injured and missed a big portion of that season, but he tied an NFL record with a 99-yard touchdown pass early in the season to Jerry Allen. And then came 1969. You know, he played his one and only season with Vince Lombardi.

Washington had its first winning season in 15 years. Sonny called Lombardi his favorite coach of the nine that he played for and said in later years, if he had had more years with Lombardi, he would have been the best version of himself as a quarterback and he would have won championships with Vince Lombardy had he remained as the coach. Lombardi famously said about Sonny after his one season in Washington, he said, quote, if I had had Sunny in Green Bay, we would have never lost a game. Closed quote. Lombardi died, of course, shortly before the 1970 season. And then in 1971, George Allen arrived.

And Sunny and George Allen's relationship was not great. You know, George was a defensive head coach. He wanted to win games with his defense. He wanted to win games with his special teams. and he didn't want his quarterback to mess it up. And that's the way he coached, and he was very successful doing it. I think 71 in many ways was the beginning of this fervored kind of passion for the Redskins, because it was really when they started to win.

Yes, in 69, had Lombardi lived beyond that, they probably would have been great. We would have never gotten George Allen. But in 71, George Allen arrived. and Billy Kilmer arrived with him via trade, along with a lot of old guys from the Rams and the Over the Hill gang was born. And look, Sunny in 1971 was 37 years old, but that season started with an injury in the preseason. And Billy Kilmer became the primary quarterback that year. Sunny played in five games only started one. Then came 72. And 72, of course, was the season in which Washington went 11 and 3. They hosted the playoffs as the best team in the NFC,

although that's not how the one seed was determined back then, but they beat Green Bay. They beat Dallas in the playoffs, and they played Miami in Super Bowl 7 and lost. But in that 72 season, Sunny was a starter early in the year. He took over for Billy early in that season and led them from a 20 to 7 definitely. against the Cowboys in week six at home to a 24 to 20 win. It was one of those big, you know, CBS, you know, 4 o'clock games between the two heavyweights in the NFC, Washington, who had been to the playoffs in 71. Dallas was the defending champions in 72. And Sunny started that game through for 180 yards in a touchdown, but it was all part of a comeback.

that they were down 20 to 7 entering late third quarter. They came back to win that game 24 to 20, and then the next week, Sunny was the starting quarterback. In New York, Yankee Stadium against the Giants, and he tore his Achilles. There's that famous photo from the Washington Post, Sonny being sort of limping off and Billy Kilmer coming on to the field, and Billy Kilmer ended up starting the rest of that season

and being the quarterback of a team that was really, really good in 72, and Kilmer was really good, but Sonny did not get a chance to play in that Super Bowl. 73, Sunny was healthy again, but Billy started 73 as the starter, but Sonny played a lot. You know, that was really the Billy and Sunny beginning. You know, you were either a Billy guy or a Sunny guy. And I grew up in a household where I was, you know, I had a father who was a massive red, Skins fan. We were lucky. We had season tickets. My uncle and my father and I went to every single game together. My uncle was a big sunny guy, loved Sunny, would sit there screaming during the games, put Sunny in if Sunny was on the bench. My father was much more sort of in the middle.

He just wanted to win, but was probably more of a Billy guy, but loved Sunny as well. But I remember I was a sunny guy as a kid. These are the first teams I remember, the first jersey I had from one of those NFL uniform boxes where you got the plastic helmet and the plastic shoulder pads and the jersey, the first one I got was number nine. Then I got number 55, Chris Hamburger, and then I got one for Christmas,

number 43, Larry Brown. But Sunny was, you know, the first real star, sports star that I remember. And Sunny in 73 you know, came in to a game against Dallas on a Monday night in October, the famous Ken Houston Walt Garrison game. He threw a touchdown pass to Charlie Taylor that tied the game in the fourth quarter.

The Skins took the lead on a fumble return by Brigg-Owens, and then that game ended with Walt Garrison taking a pass from Craig Morton at the two-yard line and trying to fight his way into the end zone, but the great Ken Houston kept him out of it. But Sonny was a part of that 73 season, a season that ended once again with Kilmer as the starter and Kilmer starting the playoff loss in Minnesota against the Vikings. And then came Sunny's final season, 1974. He ended up starting four games in 1974. And one of those games was against those Miami Dolphins leading Washington to a 20 to 17.

in his personal Super Bowl game. In that game, Sunny finished 26 of 39, 303 yards, two touchdowns. He threw some picks in the game, but everybody threw picks back then. Bob Greasy had just led the Dolphins on a long drive and threw the go-ahead touchdown pass to Howard Twilly in the end zone, a play that gave the dolphins a 17-13 lead with just over a minute to go, and then Sonny drove him down the feet. yield 80 yards and threw that touchdown pass to Larry Smith. That's a trivia question for any Redskin, long-time Redskin fan, because it's not like

Larry Smith was a longtime Redskin. He played almost his entire career as an L.A. Ram and then came to Washington in 74, and wasn't like a big-time player for them in 74 either. But he was in there at the end for Larry Brown, more of a pass catching back than Larry Brown was, and he caught the game winner from Sonny Jurgensen. who also had some big throws in that game to Roy Jefferson and to Charlie Taylor. Roy Jefferson, 111 yards, seven catches and a touchdown in that game. But that was the game.

That was the game for Sonny. That really put kind of, you know, an exclamation point on his career. That was the game he couldn't play in, but he got him in the regular season at home and beat him 20 to 17. Sunny ended up coming in for Kilmer in the playoff game, his final game in December of 74 in the Coliseum against the Rams. It was a close game, and Sonny had a rough outing in his final game off the bench for Kilmer through a couple of picks, including one that got returned for a touchdown, and they lost that game. But from that point on, it was Sonny, the broadcaster. And look, you know, we all remember Sonny, most remember him.

for being part of the legendary booth of Frank, Sunny, and Sam for all of those years. It was first Frank and Sam in 79, and then in 80, Sunny joined the booth. I had Frank Herzog on the radio show earlier today. If you want to listen to that, you can go to the Team 980.com. He was great. I had Joe Thysman on. I had Doc on to talk about Sunny on the radio show today. But that booth will forever.

be legendary in this town. There's not going to be one, I don't think. That'll match it. And look, the times were different because it was about transistor radios, you know, if you were at the game to listen to Frank, Sonny, and Sam. If you were at home, you turn the TV volume down and you turn the radio up and you listened to them and you, you know, you couldn't pause the TV, but back then it seemed like everything kind of synced up. And most people, and we were one of those, families. We would listen to them call the games. But Sonny even before that, Sunny was an excellent analyst on CBS doing NFL games. He called a lot of the big games in the 1970s after he retired, called games with Vin Scully. And, you know, I think Ernie will probably refer to this as well,

but Herzog told me about the time that he was in the booth with Brookshire and Summerall. They were the number one team. But Sonny ultimately didn't get kind of the number one analyst job and decided to go to radio and call Redskins games, all the while doing local TV at Channel 9 with the, you know, unbelievably hysterical. And I think the best to ever do it, Glenn Brenner at Channel 9. And when Glenn passed away in 1991, you know, he had to sit a year out because of contractual things with Channel 9, but then he went to Georgia. Michael's Channel 4 and of course that Redskins report you know Saturday night show with George Sonny Rigo and Wilbon was must watch. Yeah I mean there's so much I mean I was so lucky and it really was surreal for me you know during those years where I

hosted the official pregame show for 13 years I did it and Sonny was a part of it for I I think 11 or 12. And, you know, Sunny started to wind down there a little bit. And so he stopped doing some of that stuff. But he loved doing that. I loved doing that. So much, you know, was discussed that thrilled me because, you know, we would talk about the game. The previous week we would talk about and preview the upcoming game.

But inevitably, it would slip into something about Sunny's career or somebody that Sonny played. and he was just an incredible storyteller with a great memory. And it was fun because, you know, here was the first kind of hero for me. And I'm, you know, I got him on my show every week and I did a bunch of luncheons and breakfasts and different events with Sonny and Sam and sometimes Larry. It was usually if Larry couldn't do it. I did it with Larry, but really enjoyed Sonny. Tommy will talk about him on Tuesday show because Tommy loved Sunny.

The two of them would sit there and smoke cigars outside the radio booth, you know, a couple of hours before the game. And yeah, I mean, Sunny's story about playing in a charity celebrity game in Hershey, Pennsylvania for the Philadelphia Eagles, they were playing like the Baltimore Colts, you know, football player basketball celebrity team. and it was before, before Wilts Chamberlain's 100-point game in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Sunny was there the night that Wilt scored 100. Just incredible.

I mean, I think for years and years and years, you know, it was like Sunny's number nine needs to be retired, and thankfully they got it done. I mean, you know, it was a few years ago, 2023, and they did it at the end. of the year. I don't even want to get in to remember the timing of it and the and Frank Herzog not being involved until he came on the show with me and then they invited him and, you know, this was the last regime. They butchered everything they did. But thankfully, Sonny's jersey was retired with him still alive. I mean, to me, that was always after Sammy Baugh's jersey, the next one had to be Sonny's jersey, you know, or Bobby Mitchell's because of the

significance of Bobby Mitchell integrating the team. And Bobby Mitchell's was next, but then as we know, it then was Sean Taylor's jersey before. Certainly Sonny's got in, thankfully, because that number nine will never be worn, nor was it. Although, remember, when Spurrier was here briefly, I think it was Shane Matthews, who was wearing it during a preseason game, and somebody had to remind Spurrier, Snyder, etc. Yeah, that jersey is an untouchable. It may not be retired, but it is an untouchable. You may have heard of them. Sonny Jurgensen. Incredible, incredible life, incredible career. And so much of, you know, the stories you'll hear and have probably already heard are from people talking about non-football stuff. And Ernie, I'm sure, will regale us with some of those stories. Sunny was a guy's guy, a legend off the field.

as much as he was on it. But to Sonny's family and all of his friends' sympathies. And rest in peace, number nine, you're an all-time DC giant. We'll talk to Ernie Bauer about Sunny next after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, I've been telling you about Goldbelly now for a while. It's this amazing site that I order from where you can get the most iconic famous foods from restaurants all across the United States.

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This was somebody I thought about right when the news broke this morning, in terms of getting him on the show today, because nobody knows the history of this market, sports-wise, broadcasting-wise, more than one legend himself, Ernie Bauer, long-time director, producer at every place imaginable. And for all intents and purpose is my very first employer out of college at Fox Channel 5. And I've told Ernie this many times on the air and off of it. It's about as good a first job as you could ever have working for Ernie Bauer and Steve Buckeance at Channel 5.

What a time we had. We did have a great time. But of course I thought about you because not only do you remember Sonny the player, but you were a friend of Sonny's over the years and were. very instrumental in his broadcasting career. And so I'll just start off by asking you your reaction once you heard the news this morning. Well, I knew going in that he wasn't doing well, that he had been in memory care and other things. I talked to the family and they let me know.

So I'd known for about six weeks or a month that this was going to happen. I just didn't know when it was going to happen. But I get emotional. I mean, you know, he, you know, when you lose a friend, even when you know something's going to happen, it's still tough to take. And so I just, just memories go flooding into my head after this. I just was driving around doing certain things and just, you know, thinking back to a lot of the times that we had together. And how fortunate where I was.

I mean, you're talking, you know, and I heard you say this, you're talking about, to me, the number one sports figure in the history of all the sports here of Washington, D.C., to me. Yes, of a certain, people of a certain age have had Sunny at number one on that list, and they won't take them off it, even though, and I did say this, and I'm curious if you agree with me, I think Riggos is a close right there with Sunny, and those are the two, and then we can start talking about everybody else, player-wise. Right. And what did they have in common besides the fact that they were great guys?

They were beer and cigar guys. They were guys guys. Yes, they were guys, guys, you know, and women's guys. You know, they weren't, what I said to somebody over, they weren't wine and cheese guys. They were regular guys. Let me put it, let me put it that way, regular guys. And so people connected to that, a lot easier. So give me, so all these stories come flooding back.

So just start giving me some of the stories. You've given them to me over the years, but this is the day to celebrate, you know, Sonny's life and you were so close to it for so long. Well, I want to go back to one thing, though, that, and I've heard you talk about this before, and I'm on this one camp. people talk about, you know, Redskins fanaticism and Redskins Nation or whatever you want to call. But to me, it was when Sonny got here. Now, a lot of people say it was George Allen and the over-the-hill gang and all that stuff.

But when I remember sitting in my living room watching the New York Giants beat us 49 to nothing on a Sunday with Y8 Tittle throwing six or seven touchdown pay. And it was brutal. Sunny comes here and every game was phenomenal. He didn't win them all. But it was the 49 to 47, 42, and he was throwing out all of those both. And I think that's when the momentum started. And then then George came, and, of course, it went over. So now, here I am, you know, in awe of watching him on TV,

and I guess it's 74. Was that his last year? That's his last year. Okay, so he retires. And Channel 9, and he had worked for Channel 7, you know, during the field, during his playing career. But Channel 9 hired him, and he comes over, and now I'm directed, the news, but I'm also involved with producing and directing all the sort of sports and

fillery shows, pregame, Redskins pregame shows or host gamer, and of course the Warner Wolf Show, which became Redskins sidelines. So that's where we really got to hang around together. And so, you know, I'm working with my hero, but he never made it so that I, that I had to, you know, bow at his seat. You know, he took me in as a friend. and we just hung around together. We worked together. Our families became friends. I mean, he and his wife, Margo, had a baby shower for Lucille and I, my first child.

I mean, we were, you know, just good, good friends. Stories, yes, there are stories of he and I going down to the Masters. We went to Super Bowls together. We spent a lot of time in Carlisle together. And we were just, you know, we were just a bunch of hanging around, you know, like a bunch of guys would do, you know, having beers afterwards. at the malt shop many nights

the dancing crab and upstairs was the malt shop right there on Wisconsin Avenue and Upper Northwest and there were a lot of nights there after Channel 9 right that was tied in the sidelines yeah the year the same year retired but Billy and McDowell

and Talbot and all those guys were still on the team but their day off was Monday and that's the night that we did sidelines would be on live 730 Monday night well these guys would show up at what was the crab and the dancing crab and the upstairs was a room they had never used but they opened it up and to us these guys and they got there around two like 7.30 when the guests got on that's where they got to name the malt shop because Brenner said

well I can see you guys have had some malt's I guess you stopped by the malt shop and they decided name it that after that and then after the show then they would go out that was the other thing So there are legendary stories. Somebody call me today and said, you know, I'm sitting upstairs at the malt shop. And to my left is funny Jurgensen. And to my right is Johnny United.

In front of me is Billy Kilmer. And you tell me, is that any fun? Yeah. So it started, so when he, so Redskins sidelines was this show for those of you that don't know,

as Ernie said, Monday nights. So this game was on Sunday. Redskins sidelines, 730. on Channel 9. It was a must-watch show every week if you were a Redskins fan. Glenn Brenner, you know, hosted it.

Are you telling me, I don't remember this. Did Warner Wolf actually host that show to start off? It was initially called the Warner Wolf Show. Okay. It was Warner, and then one week, Divern Tower, but he's co-host, and then the next week, Larry Brown would be his co-host. And then the next year, it was Louisville Jefferson. And then Mike Wolfe, and then when Warner left, we continued to show, but we changed the name to Redskins sidelines.

Right. And that's when Glenn started hosting it. Well, Mike Wolf did it for one time. Oh, yeah. Mike Wolf, the guy that literally was cut right from 1975. I mean, the shirt, you know, was unbuttoned five buttons deep and had how many chains and necklaces around his hairy chest, right? Exactly. That guy. One year, and then Glenn. Yeah, and then Glenn. So Sunny and Glenn's relationship and their on-air rapport was unbelievable.

You know, I don't know, and I can't speak to what goes on now. But in those days, not only did we work together, we played together, we grew up together. We had families hung out together. So when you're talking about, you know, like Glenn and funny, they didn't just, you know, do the show and then I see you later. I'm going home. No, no, we're going out. You know, so they were friends, not only working friends, but personal friends. You know, I had Frank Herzog on with me on radio this morning, and he was telling me about just the, you know, the Channel 9 to Channel 4 stretch.

Now, you're at Channel 5 at that point, but you know the history of this. You know, Sonny's attached to Channel 9 for, it would have been at that point 17 years of his. post-game of his post-playing career. By the way, real quickly, before I get to that, Sonny was an excellent analyst for CBS calling NFL games for many years in the 70s. Correct. I don't know. I'm going to heard this story. I'll tell it, you know, but he might be a great assault. Tom Brookshire and Pat Somal were the number one guy. Brookshire gets ill. And I can go into the reasons for that, but he had some, some, something happened in his

body that, that was causing some infection. So he couldn't do it. So Sonny took Brookshar's place. So it was Summerall and Sonny. Now Brookshar comes back, but the powers to be at CBS go, wait a minute, these guys are all pretty good. Let's do a three-man bush. It would be Summoral, Sunny, Brookshire.

and I heard that like, Brookshire didn't want to do that. So they kept Stumrah on Bookshire and said, Sonny, we're not doing that. And then that sort of moved Sonny towards doing radio. Interesting. Herzog, Frank said that to me this morning. I did not remember the three of them together.

I remember Sonny with Vince Scully. I remember Sonny with guys like Frank Lieber. You know, they were never together. This was a germ of an idea. Oh, because I never got off the ground because Brookshire didn't want to do it. Okay, but what I don't remember is Sunny replacing Brookshire, you know, with Summerall doing a game before Brookshire came back from that illness. But Sunny was great at that.

But anyway, so Glenn passes away suddenly and tragically, you know, just, you know, days before Super Bowl 26 in 1991. and so Sonny then wants to go, you know, he doesn't want to be at Channel 9 anymore because Glenn was his guy and George then steps in and Sonny becomes a part of Channel 4. But Frank, you know, told me about this contractual battle and Sunny essentially sat out a year. That I probably, I don't remember that. There was all kinds of things going on at this time. But it doesn't surprise me, but I just don't remember it, be honest with it. You remember, I mean, Sunny was great with Glenn and then was great with George.

Yes. Yes. Yes, he was. And they also did, well, it was a show that Bernie and I started, but then George took it too with Riggo, Will Bond, Kornheiser. Redskins report. Right. We had done Redskins' playbook.

Yep. Which was a roundtable thing, which I think was the first ever done. Yeah. And then rightfully, George was smart. that was the right thing to do. Yeah, I mean, I have to tell you, Redskins' sidelines was must watch as a kid, and then as I started to become a teenager and an adult, and then eventually a real adult, because that show didn't end,

and really, I guess it ended when George passed away in 2010, but that show with Rigo and Will Bond, George, and then Sonny, was unbelievably good must watch on Saturday nights. Yeah. It absolutely was. You know, Frank said something, and then Andy Poland texted me and said, not true. You know how Sonny got the reputation of never picking against the Redskins?

Like, he never did it. And Frank said during all of his years, you know, after his career, he never did it. Andy reminded me that he disliked Marty Schottenheimer so much in 2001 that he picked against the Redskins multiple times that year. I do remember that he, was not fond of Marty. A lot of people weren't, especially at 0 and 5. Right,

exactly. Well, that reminds me a little bit of Warner. Warner used to, you know, at the beginning of the year, they go, I got the Redskins going, you know, 10 and 4. Yeah. And he would never pick against him during the week. Never pick up the lose. Right. How was, you know,

you talked about your friendship and the family's friendship with Sunny over the years. He had this reputation of being a big drinker and a big partier. But that did end at one point in his life, right? He just stopped. I mean, he didn't go to meetings. He didn't get a DWI. Well, I mean, it wasn't upcome to Jesus moment. He just stopped. That was one of the reasons why people like them so much. Yeah. Because he was a partyer. And he did, you know, all the things that, you know, one time he was driving home, if you ever drove through Alexander, you got to go all around

these circles, you know, to get because he lived in Mount Vernon. And so he got pulled over one time, and the cops said, you know, you just missed that statue. And he said, I didn't know I was supposed to hit it. Well, I mean, he and Billy became the fastest of friends. And part of that really was sort of when Joe got on the team, they sort of created a bond of, you know, anybody but him, right? Well, I think the worst story I heard I said,

didn't Joe have a quote about I'm not letting those two old men put me on the bench Exactly And that was the thing And at that point they'd get okay And Billy to this day Still calls Joe Teesman

Thesman Still calls him Feasman Yeah, he won't Freezes call him five Joe was on with me this morning And he said You know, I asked Sonny a few years after

You know Playing with the two of them And Joe was there for Sunny's final year And he just He said I just need to know the truth. Did the two of you actually really dislike me? And Sonny said, yes, we did.

We didn't like you at all. I mean, you know, Joe came in as this big Notre Dame star who played in the CFL briefly. Right. And he came in, you know, opened up a restaurant and started talking about, you know, these two old guys, I'm not going to let them beat me out. Right, exactly.

Joe was a heck of a player, though. He was. I mean. Great player. Yeah. But, yeah. You know, their personality and his personality just didn't mesh. I mean, that happens with everybody.

You've worked with people that you don't necessarily get along with. Right. Yeah. So what else? What else do you have on Sunny? Well, I mean, I'll tell you one. We're up in Colorado. His birthday was always August 23rd, my brother's, I remember.

But he always spent his birthdays at training camp. So now he's retired. And so now we're up there on Billy and McDowell and Tavern. and all of them are still on the team. So we're going to meet at a place called Rillows. It was an Italian place up in Carlo. Now, those guys had to be back in them. They could go out to dinner, but they had to be back by 8 o'clock.

So anyway, we're all going to meet Rillows and celebrate Sonny's birthday. Well, you know, now we're there, and it's getting longer and longer. He's not there. Sonny's not there. So they decide to eat, and Joey Rillo brings out all this food, even to the point that you've got to make all this food at it. I can't eat anymore. Stop bringing all the food out.

finally at 7.30, funny comes in, and his designated driver was Bruce Allen. He's got to be 15 years old. Right. So he comes in, and he goes, What's going, Funny,

happy birthday, and they said, but unfortunately, we got to leave because we've got to get back. And they said, so what do we owe? How much?

It's got to be a lot. And somebody goes, no, no, no, no. It's my birthday. I got it. You guys just go ahead. And you're going,

my goodness. Thanks, I mean, that's got to be unbelievable. You know, what a bill that has to be. and they all leave and funny gets the check, looks at it, hands it to me and leave. Yeah, you have so many stories, and you've had so many of those stories over the years about that place, Rillows, in Carlisle.

Italian place, and they just loved you guys. And you'll like this story. This is what Paul Farns were. Yeah. We work. So Farns, you know, we're at in Carlisle, and he, in. we're going out after we've worked. And so in his mind, he says, I'm going to order every time Sonny and Ernie order.

I'm going to stay with them, drink for drink, beer for beer. So we go to someplace, Duffies or something, I don't remember. Anyway, so we're there for quite a while. And Sonny goes, and Farns is wobbling now. He's in the back. Real quickly, Paul Farnsworth, who was a dear friend of mine in Ernie's, he was a producer at Channel 5 and worked with Ernie kind of running the sports department with Buckhantz.

So anyway, continue. So anyway, he's behind us, and now he's wobbling a little bit, and then Sonny goes, that's it, we're done. And Far as if I stuck with him, and Sonny goes, now we're going to Scotch. It went to a different gear. Farns went home. He went home, yeah.

Farns always gave it a good college try in those situations. All right. Well, I mean, it was just incredible. You know, you just mentioned it started in the 60s, and my father totally agrees with you, but I wasn't around for that. So I remember the beginning of George Allen, and I still think that that's when it went from, you know, it went from, you know, kind of warming to red hot in terms of the fan base. But to your point, people started to pay attention and really started to get into the team because of Sonny Jurgensen's arrival in 64. And, and of course, that's the one thing that I will never forgive George Allen for,

benching Sonny, basically. I mean, taking the football out of his hand, let me put it that way. You know, he was a defensive guy. He would take that. And Sonny said that they wouldn't be a practice. Georgia thing, throw an interception, make the defense look good. screw you. And, you know, he threw a touchdown.

You know, George took the ball out of Sonny's hand and didn't allow him funny to be sunny. That always bothered me. Sonny all this day, we'll tell you if Sonny was the quarterback of the Dolphs. Super Bowl, they would have won. I'm not sure, but they would have probably done a lot better. So many times I could tell in my conversations with him over the years, you know, on the air at some event that George was not his favorite.

That's for sure. Right. And, you know, Lombardi had the famous line. If I had had Sonny Jurgensen, we would have won the Super Bowl every year. We never lost the game or something like that. And, yeah, and the way Sonny talks about the one year, would talk about the one year with Lombardi versus the four years with George. Right.

Yeah, there was no doubt who he preferred. But that's just the coach George was. He was defense special teams, the quarterback. you know, we're not, you're not going to lose the game for us. Right. And one other, you know, I know you're doing your trivia week. Yeah. And here's a trivia question you probably know the answer to,

but this is how good Sonny was. He's in the Hall of Fame. There's only two quarterbacks in the Hall of Fame of Fame of the losing record. Ooh. Does Joe Namath have a losing record? Correct. And Sunny. So they're the only two.

I thought you said two others. So I got the answer. Okay. They're the only two. Interesting. Right. But the fact of the matter is he's in the Hall of Fame with a losing record. I've got to tell you how good he was. That's how good he was. That's how great he was. And you know, you were around other players from other teams and sometimes, you know,

is the orange sleeves for CBS, you know, down on the field. You know, one of the things that in talking to a couple of people on the show and afterwards is just the reverence when they went on the road, Sonny's a broadcaster. he's down on the field before and the people that would come up to him and just essentially bow at his feet. But to your point, Sonny had no ego. He was easy. But, man, former players from that era, they got it.

They understood how great he was. Absolutely. And just, this is a bad, not about you that thought about me. Yeah. I worked a freelancer for CBS Sports for years, and one of the reasons why I was accepted is because I was a friend of Sonny's. You know, the guys that worked at CBS Sports, ex-player,

announcers, if I was with Sunny and I was introduced, then I'm part of the fold. And that helped me, you know, get these freelance jobs and work for CBS sports for years. It was simply because I was a friend of Sunny. All right.

Thanks for doing this. I know it's a tough day for you and the people that really knew him and spent so much time with him, but it's always great to hear. You talk about anything in the past, let alone things that you touched on a daily basis for so long. Thanks, Ernie. Appreciate it.

I appreciate you giving me a call. Like you'd say, it's kind of a bittersweet day. All these memories come flooding back and, you know, privileged and lucky to have the memories, but also sad that Tony's not here. Yeah. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Ernie. All right, my friend.

Ernie Bauer, everybody. Up next, Jay Gruden will talk some Super Bowl, get his pick after these words from a few of our sponsors. The big games almost here, and there's no better way to cash in during America's biggest sporting event than with prize picks where it always feels good to be right. And since the big games right around the corner, that also means it's your last chance to get into the football action before next season. So close the season out right with prize picks by getting $50. instantly in lineups when you play your first $5. Prize Picks is fun. It's exciting. It's a game of skill, and it's so easy to play. Prize Picks will present you with stat projections, and all you've got to do is pick more or less. And with the big game almost here, there's no better way to cash in during America's biggest sporting event.

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Of course, I would have asked Jay about Sunny. Jay got to know Sunny. everybody that coached and quarterbacked for sure got to know Sonny Jurgensen well. Sunny spent a lot of time in the building out in Ashburn. But we recorded it before the news about Sunny broke. And I started off by asking Jay about the year that he spent with his brother in Tampa on a Super Bowl winning team. The 2002 Buccaneers beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl, 48 to 21.

Jay was an assistant on his brother's. staff that year, and I asked him about sort of his role on his brother's staff and what he remembered about that particular season and that game. Yeah, I was offensive to the system. I didn't have a role. I didn't work with a specific position. I mainly just helped John Lowe's some ideas on third down red zone. And on game day, I talked to him on the headset, gave him a down distance to hash,

recommended the player too, and gave any information he was looking for, tried to, and then help with the answer replay. So they're a little bit on my plate for just a little flappy from the arena league. Were you on the sideline, or were you in the box? I was in the box. You were. But you had a direct link to your brother on the headset. Yeah, I was the one talking to them mostly. So just give me an example. So a play ends, you know, you get a Sean King throw to Keeshawn Johnson for six yards at second and four. Yeah, what did I say? Well, Bradgett. Who does that? What quarterback did I say?

He said Sean King. Sean King, my fault. Brad Johnson, of course, Brad Johnson was the starting quarterback. Was Sean King on that team? I don't even know if he was. I think he was. No, I don't think he was back here. He might have been.

He was on the 99 bucks that beat the skins in the divisional round playoff. That's why his name was on my mind. All right. So just give me an example of how it would work. It's first and 10, and Brad Johnson just completed a six-year, pass to Keishon Johnson, it's second and four. What would you say to your brother? Second four, right hash.

That's it. I let him do his thing, and that's it. And if he asked for anything else in between series, you might ask for recommendations, but I try to keep as quiet as possible, because, you know, it was his show. If he asked the question, I'd answer it. If he didn't ask the question, I didn't say a damn thing.

I just gave him the down in distance. And that's it. And once I saw the personnel on defense, I tell there, a nickel there in base, whatever it might be. Second and four, right hash. Did you identify that right when the play ended with binoculars by just looking at the field? Would you look at the scoreboard to get it? How did you do it?

I just saw it on the field. I could see it pretty good. A lot of times the tough ones were the real short ones, like the third and inches or four. Is it the first down or not? I don't know. I can't see a mark. You're closer than I am, John. Jesus.

Right, Manelli. Those are the tough one. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I always think about that because the play clock's running. and sometimes they'll reset the play clock, you know, they'll reset, excuse me, the play clock to 25, you know, if there's been, you know, too much time and getting the spot right and getting the measurement right.

Now we've got, you know, the virtual thing, but back then they probably didn't reset the play clock as much. And so you had to figure it out quickly, and that would lead maybe to getting your personnel in the play call a little bit later than usual. a third in inches. Yeah, it was hard. You know, I realized it was kind of a tough job.

It was kind of stressful. You know, you don't get any credit for that, but you get a lot of blame if you screw up. Gosh, I thought it was a first down. Those third one, you idiot. Yeah. You know, that was hard. You know, I realized how hard it was when I coached to Hulu ball a couple weeks ago,

and we had nobody upstairs to tell you the down-in-distance yard line. One time I thought we were at the five-yard line going on, and I called a five-yard line going in play it, and we're at the 15, and I go, holy cow. It's a stressful job. But it's necessary. It's the whole.

And I had to handle the challenges, too. That was hard. You know, should we challenge that? I haven't seen the replay yet. Jesus, Grime and L. You got to let me know. I'm like, I'm trying. I'm hurry.

Wait, was your job the replay guy? Yeah, yeah. Oh, you had that too. Yeah. So how did you handle replays back in 2002? You're at the mercy of the replay. Sometimes the booth didn't show the replay in ample time. You know what I mean?

So I'm like, you know, I didn't have a great view of it. I couldn't really see if they have a show and replay yet. You know, I'd hold your flag right now. You know, so yeah, it was hard. And John, if anybody who knows John on Game Day, he is quite tough to work for. You know, he's always on edge and yelling and screaming. And I'm like, geez. So I was trying to do the best I could, but it was tough being up there,

especially if you don't get the replay. Right. I mean, how many times did you say throw the flag during the, the course of the year. I don't need the exact number, but was it a lot? It was a few. You know, I think a lot of times, you know, when we all see the replay, we had like seven or eight coaches in the booth. It wasn't just me. I mean, everybody was looking at it, too. We're all trying to work together and, um, and consensus, we'd say, throw the flag, you know, but like I said before, the critical thing was, can we get the replay

in time? You know, if you're playing on a road, good home teams are smart with their replay. They don't show the replay if it could be replayed. Right. You're right back then. They show the replay. That's what he used to piss me off in Washington. I'd be like, why are we showing the replay? Well, they're going to coach a confete on the damn jumbo tron up there.

Why are we showing that? And then they throw the flag. I'm like, what the hell? Don't show the replay. You know, that is such a great point. And I don't know how many people listening remember that. But the video scoreboard, you know, operator, at home was crucial at that time because a lot of what you decided on was based on whether or not they played the replay.

If there was a drop pass that got caught that was ruled a catch by the home team, if you don't have a super sharp video operator running that to say, yeah, we're not showing that replay. Yeah, I mean, I think some teams actually had really sharp football people, you know, handling that responsibility. And you're saying that we maybe didn't, which wouldn't be a surprise. Yeah, exactly right. It's 100% true. And, you know, and, you know, good smart teams would hurry up.

If it was a close call, they'd hurry up with their offense to get a play called and go, no huddle. And you have to make a decision within, like, seven or eight seconds, throw the flag or not. It was a tough job It was impossible to get everything right back then You know, I think the game that I remember before the Super Bowl that year More than any other

Was the game at Philadelphia in the NFC championship game Because, you know, Philly had lost I think the previous, no, it would be the next year They lost to you guys And then they lost to Carolina, I think, at home They lost multiple NFC title games at home You guys went in to the vet and dominated that NFC championship game.

What do you remember about it? I remember defense played great. Ronda had that scoop and scored, and obviously we had the Joe Jarvisious little jerk route for about a 60-yard game, and Al-Sot took it in. And it was a great game because the night before the game, it was parades going on everywhere in Philadelphia, the streets. They were dancing around with all the sports talk radio shows,

all the NBC, CBS, CBS, everywhere you turn the TV on the local stations were all eagles, eagle, fly, eagles fly. It was a great environment for Philadelphia. It was going there in that hostile environment was, I think, almost as equally as excited as winning the Super Bowl. It really was like an example of, as football fans, you know, you'll say about the playoffs, defense travels.

It's the one thing that you can count on when you go on the road, and that defense that day was just dominant. Did you guys know, when did you, you know during that season that defensively this was going to be one of the better teams that the NFL had seen? Well, they were good the year before. Yeah. They were the year before that.

You know, so they had a great defense. Tony Dungy had a great defense. They just didn't have an offense that could score a point. And that's where John came in with Brad Johnson and Pittman and Kishon and obviously Keenan McCardell and Joe Jarvisious and he added some other players on the offensive line. And they were, we were functional on offense to go along with the top defense in a league. I mean, you're talking about Hall of Famers.

Ronde Barber, Warren Sepps. I mean, Rice isn't in, but he should be. Derek Brooks, John Lynch. I mean, this defense is sick now. Greg Spires, Brian Kelly at the corner spot, Jackson has a safety. So, yeah, they're pretty damn good. No weakness whatsoever.

They could rush four, play Tampa 2, and just get after your ass. How good was Monty Kiffin as a defensive coordinator? He was good. You know, he's the one at really. kind of revolutionized a cover two, the Tampa 2 system. You know, Shelton Coral is running down the middle

and the cover two safeties and, you know, the hook players and very physical brand of defense four-man rush, a lot of stunting. But he also had some fire zones and stuff like that to keep you honest. But he was a very good football coach. Guys responded to him. We had Ron Marinelli, which is a good defensive line coach, very tenacious for those defensive linemen.

But they had great players, man. I just mentioned like five Hall of Famers, for God's sakes. I think that a cover three system, them would have worked just fine. I think it covered one system would have worked. I think whatever system would be ran with that personnel was pretty good, but Monty was a great motivator and a very good coach. So your NFC champions after your win in Philadelphia, take me through the buildup to the big game and then your memories about the win over the Raiders?

Well, I remember getting ready for the game and the preparation was pretty on point. John did a great job of get these guys ready to go with the practice of the meetings and all that stuff. And John played quarterback during the week. couple of times and that the audibles at Rich Gannon would do against, you know, the Raiders and, like you remember, John Lynch calling out, Slugosteem and getting the pick, you know, the pick six. So there was a lot of

cool things that went on during a practice to preparation. It was one of the games where you really see good preparation really pay off in the game, especially defensively because that Raider team was hot as hell out often. Right. They were one of the best offenses coming in. And Tampa, I think we had four interceptions, two pick, sixes. Five, five interceptions. Yeah, five interceptions. Yeah. And then offensively,

you know, Brad had a great game. Back shoulder fade to Keenan McArdle. We had a good running attack and just beat the hell out of them. It was over, I think, in the third quarter. Brad Johnson's, you know, he comes on with me usually once a year, sometimes more than that. And he actually had, you know, you probably know this. He had a phenomenal season here in 1999. It is one, you know, full season here. They won the division. They won a playoff game and they lost, you know, by a point at Tampa against Tony Dungey's Tampa Bay Buccaneers team. That was the year the greatest show on turf. St. Louis won for the first time. And I always felt like he was incredibly underrated as a tough guy quarterback, not to mention incredibly smart. What do you

remember about Johnson at quarterback Brad Johnson? Incredible human being. Players loved him. He was tough as hell. And, you know, people got on him. They checked down. He loved a checkdown. But he's accurate.

He moved the ball. He was very smart, very tough. Just dependable guy. He would have a lot of mistakes. He had a game similar. He didn't have the athletic ability as Alex Smith, but he was similar to Alex Smith type of game where he was very efficient, very smart, didn't put the team in any harm's way with turnovers.

protected the football and was a great leader, and then players loved to play for him. So how did you celebrate after winning a Super Bowl? You know, I was just, you know, it was all John's show. You know, I was just happy for John. You know, I didn't really do a whole lot. I just kind of hung out with him after the game and let him do his thing, and it was about him and the team. And I was just a innocent bystander cheering him on. I was very proud of him and glad to be part of it.

You were part of a hell of a staff, too. I mean, that's not a bad, you know, first gig in the NFL to be on a super, because that's your first year in the NFL, right? Mike Tomlin and Rahim Morris, we shared an office. Mike Tomlin and Raheem Morris, you know, Marinelli became a head coach. Yeah. It was a pretty damn good staff. Really good staff.

I think I've asked you this before, but I'm going to ask it again because I don't remember the answer. Coaches will often point to a season that they had that they'll say that was the best coaching job that I ever did. And sometimes it doesn't match up with record, you know, great record, great playoff success, or even what fans might think. Is there a team a season where you thought you did your best coaching job? Well, I think, you know, taking Washington to the playoffs, my second year was pretty good. You know, the team that we inherited wasn't very good from the Shanahan deal.

obviously the quarterback controversy that we overcame with Kirk Cousins in my second year going to the playoffs I think was pretty good jump and yeah going to the playoffs unfortunately we lost the Green Bay but that would probably be the one you know in Cincinnati I thought as an offensive

coordinator with the young players that we had there I thought I did a pretty good job with a rookie quarterback and Andy Dalton AJ Green we drafted Marvin Jones Mossovoo Giovanni Bernard Tyler Ipert the next year and 12 and 13 in 13 I thought we were pretty damn good. We had a chance to win it all, but we had some tough injuries of Tyler

Eifert in the playoffs, and we lost our tackle, and it was tough to lose. But I thought, offensively, you look at our production in 2013 with a very, very young offensive football team was pretty good, a little backpatter, I think. Yeah, that team got rolling offensively, that's for sure. I mean, throwing the football, you guys were pretty much unstoppable and carried over into 2016. All right, I want to talk some Super Bowl with you, but before we get to Sunday's game, I want to go back to the AFC championship game because I didn't have a chance to talk to you about the two championship games last week. If you're Sean Payton up 7-0, 2nd quarter, fourth and one, chip shot field goal to go up 10-0, do you kick or do you go for it?

A couple things, 100% Kicked field goal. Not even a doubt in my mind. You know, if a rookie quarter, you have a quarterback who hadn't played two years, you're putting them in a tough spot. You know, and then they call a play on 14-1. It was for man-to-man, and they got zone, and so it's a dead play, you know, so a couple of critical

calls by Sean that did not work out. But to go up 10-0 with the way your defense was playing in that game, they had three series where New England didn't do anything. You know what I mean? So it would have been 10 of nothing, and Denver's defense was hot. They were playing very good, to get a two-score lead in a game like that with the weather coming in that was going to come in, I think, was pretty significant.

I think it was a bad decision by Sean, I'm sure he would do it. If he had to do it all over again, he'd kick it 100 times out of 100. All right. Let's get to the game on Sunday, Super Bowl 60, Seattle, and New England. How do you see it going? I think that this is going to be a good game, man. I actually think New England can win this game. I think defensively they're pretty damn good.

And if you look at what New England did with their roster from last year to this year, you go on their depth chart from last year, and you look at their depth chart this year. They made an incredible amount of changes. Not only with the head coach, obviously, but the personnel, they did a great, great job. Offensively and deep enough. They drafted Will Cammley, drafted a guard from Georgia. They got Morgan Moses the right tackle. They got Trayvon Henderson.

They got Mack Collins, who's a tough physical receiver. It is a lot of good things. Defensively. They got Williams. They got Slane. They got Chase on. They got Woodson. They drafted.

They got Carlton Davis. I mean, you look at this, totally revamped football team. You know, the one thing that stays constant was obviously Drake May, and they added Stefan Diggs. I mean, they did an unbelievable job in the offseason of surrounding Greg May and then also add the defense that can really perform. And they added good defensive players. And I think with the defense of New England has, I think they can get this thing done.

So the Sam Darnold, you know, discussion has changed. I mean, he's played great in these playoff games. not necessarily against great defensive teams the way they were playing in the moment, and he's going to face one on Sunday. That's for sure with the way the Patriots are playing. I'm wondering if this is more just sort of the way fans think or it's the way you would think. Would you just force Sam Darnold to beat you if you're the Patriots, if you're Rabel? Would you sell out to stop Kenneth Walker to stop the run and put the game on Sam Darnold?

Yeah, I mean, Sam's playing great. And obviously, I think the knock on New England right now is their path has been pretty relatively easy for the playoffs. You know, they played a backup quarterback last week, and their schedule was pretty easy for a team that's in the Super Bowl. They really haven't been challenged. Now they're going to be challenged by a really good New England or a Seattle team, obviously.

Smith and Jigba against Gonzalez is going to be a great matchup to watch throughout the game. Obviously, Cooper Cup and, Rashid Shaheed with his big playability. They're going to have to stop that. The running game of Kenneth Walker, you mentioned. It's going to be a fun game to watch. There's a lot of matchups in there. And New England, I like to play a lot of man-to-man.

You know, so how can Gonzalez and Carlton Davis hold up against the receiving course Seattle? It's going to be the whole issue. Can they get enough pressure on Sam to make him throw the interceptions that hopefully Sam will throw for New England's sake? So it's going to be fun to watch. You know, it's going to be how can Seattle's offensive line hold up against New England's pass rush?

Is Harold Landry going to play or not? He didn't play last week. He's a big pass rusher for him. Can they get pressure with the four guys? Do you know, play a lot of covers, a lot of different man-to-man. A lot of whole players, a lot of lurk, whatever they want to play. So it's going to be a fun game to watch. But I think when it's all said and done, I think, you know,

whoever doesn't turn the ball over is going to win. Vrable versus McVeigh, we know how you feel about Sean. What do you think about Mike Vrable as a head coach? Oh, he's great. You know, you went to Tennessee and they missed on the quarterback. you know, so they didn't have very good success rate there, and he got fired and had us that out of year, and then he got a good job in New England with number three picking a draft and Drake May.

He could have gone two, could have gone one. You know, this is an excellent quarterback draft that year with Caleb and Jaden and Drake and Joe Nick's and Rett, J.J. McCarthy, but he got a great quarterback. And when you're a head coach getting a job, you've got to have that quarterback position solidified. And he got a job with the quarterback solidified already. And then, like I said before, they did a great, great job in the offseason of getting players on defense, getting players on offense. Here they are. So, yeah, he's a very good coach, good motivator.

Players love to play for him. I know him quite well. He's a good guy. Prediction. I'm taking New England to win this damn game. I don't know why. Everybody's taking Seattle. I think Drake May's ability to run.

I actually love New England's receiving core. I love this K. Sean Booty. I think he's a hell of a player underrated type player. I like Diggs. They got the rookie. They got Pop Douglas, I think, is a good player. Hunter Henry is a really good player. I worry about the offensive line a little bit.

Will Campbell can he hold up against the Marcus Lawrence and the rest of the guys over there? So that would be the biggest issue. If you can hold up in the past throw, I think they can get after him because the Rams did a good job getting after Seattle's defense. Witherspoon out there at a corner, I think, might be a little bit of a liability.

I like a better inside. Wooten, whatever's name is. He's a good player, but he gave up some big, place. I think New England's going to, I think it's going to be a higher scoring game, too, than people think. God, you and I are on the same page on this one. 100%. I feel the same way. As the week's gone on, I'm just like, you know what? New England's defense is going to be tough for Seattle. And if Matt Stafford, he threw for 831 yards

and six touchdowns against that defense in his last two games over like a four-week period. I would think, unlike the Denver game where Vrable literally took the ball out of Drake May's hands, I would think they're going to go after Seattle a little bit. They're going to try to anyway. I 100% agree. And I do like the running game of New England. You know, I think Stevenson and Henderson are their good backs. And they can force Seattle play a lot of cover. The Seattle does play a lot of cover, too. They don't blitz as a lot. So I think there's going to be some past plays to be had. And I think they're going to try to protect the corners. I think Stevenson and Tenors can have some big hits and then force them into some single high stuff.

And that's where they can attack the corners. And I think they can. All right. So I'm assuming that your lock of the week is New England plus the points. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. And guess what? You know, at My Bookie, a sponsor of this podcast, the current number is five. So you're getting New England on this show plus the five.

And it seems like you like high. You like over 45 and a half. what's your final score prediction? Do you have one? I like it. Yeah, I like it 31, 27, New England. Wow. All right.

Any of the coaching hires, just real quickly, any of them surprise you? You know, these owners, they have to make a decision. They want to go a younger guy with new blood or they want to go to an older better, like the Mike McCarthy. I think what people really got to realize, it's not so much about the coach. I understand that, but who's the GM going to be and how are you going to pick the players? You know, very, very important to have that match with the GM. Then you've got to find the coordinators, the offensive coordinator,

defensive coordinator, if you hire an offensive coach, who's he bringing in on defense? Devering defensive coach, who's he bringing on offense. These hires are critical, not just the head coach, but the GM is just absolutely enormous. You know, you look at what Brable did, his first job, and what they did with their team. You look at the, you know, what, you know, Dan Quinn,

when he first got the job, they dropped Jaden Daniels, you know. So you got to have that match. with the head coach, match with the head coach and the GM, obviously the coordinators. So I'm more concerned with the entire staff build than just the individual coach. Because coach it can succeed if they have good players, they have good staff around them. Speaking of that, because I don't think I've gotten your opinion on this because we didn't do a show last week, and I think it happened after our show two weeks ago. What did you think of the hiring of Durante Jones as the defensive coordinator?

I don't really know them that well, you know. but I'm sure Coach Quinn did a lot of due diligence you had a lot of interviews and took a lot of time with the process so I'm sure he feels good about it but as long as Coach Quinn still there with his stamp on the defense I think whoever the defensive coordinator is

will be a reflection of Coach Quinn's style so I think it'll be just fine. Thank you. They've got to get the players in there. They've got to get the players in there. I mean, damn, right? They need a lot of players on defense, don't get a lot of players. I mean, they can hire

you know, buddy Ryan back in the day, it's not going to matter. They've got to get some players. Yeah, they really do. Thanks for doing this all year. I've really enjoyed it. Appreciate it. All right. Thanks, Kevin.

Jay Gruden, everybody. I'll finish up the show with the final smell test pick of the year after these words from a few of our sponsors. Have you ever fallen for a scam or know someone who has? Well, the holidays are all about finding the perfect gift. This time of year, however, not every deal is what it seems. Scammers are getting more creative to trick people into sharing their payment information through methods like fake shopping sites and giveaways that are too good to be true. Luckily, Cash Apps 24-7 fraud monitoring helps detect and alert you for unusual card activity should someone gain access to your card so you can act fast if something seems off.

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It's time for the smell test. The smell test is always brought to you. buy MyBooky if you want to bet the big game Sunday. My recommendation is to do it at MyBooky.com, mybooky.com, mybooky.orgy.com. Mybooky. promo code DC Reload, DCR-E, L-O-A-D, and you'll get a 50% cash bonus when you sign up for the first time, or if you're a returning customer and you make a new deposit. That means deposit $300. They'll add another $150 into your account. you'll have a $450 balance. You deposit $50. They'll add another $25 into your account. You'll have a $75 balance. Whatever it is, take 50% of it and add it to your balance in the form of a cash bonus

when you use my promo code, DC Reload. They've got everything you need for the big game, every single prop bet imaginable. The number right now at MyBooky is four and a half. So it was five there for a couple of days. and now it is back down to four and a half for Super Bowl 60s. So yeah, you had the opportunity there. Wait, hold on for a second.

I just reloaded, D.C. reloaded, and it's back to five. I swear to God, I just hit reload on my bookie, and the line just changed back to five. So if you want to bet the Patriots, and I'm going to give you my smell test pick, and it's going to be the underdog, bet it at my bookie where you can get a plus five right now, and that's minus 110.

You're paying a straight 10% Vig. You're not paying an additional price for the extra half point. Plus five on the Patriots at my bookie right now. The total is 45 and a half. If you want to bet the pats on the money line, you get back plus 196. So you bet 100 on New England, and you win 196,

they win the game, you lose 100. You bet $10, you win $19.60 if they win the game. My bookie's got everything you need, I promise you, for Super Bowl 60. By the way, after the game, they'll have all of their 2026 futures up. You know, they'll have the odds on the skins winning the NFC East or winning the NFC. I don't know if they'll have season totals quite yet on win totals, but next week we'll get to some of the 2026 NFL numbers following Super Bowl 60. All right, the smell test did pretty well this year. Two weeks ago, one-and-one on championship Sunday, Denver plus four and a half winner, Rams plus two and a half loser.

For the season heading into Sunday, 121, 72, and 13. 62.7%. For those of you who don't know, that's really good. It won't be my best season out of the 20 years that I've done this. I think it'll be top three. I know I had a season in excess of 64%. And I had another one that was pretty much right at 64%. But this will be top three, you know, approaching 63% on the year.

It's a really good year. And I think the best part of the year is that out of the 22 weeks that we've had, going back to Labor Day. I think 19 of those weeks were more winners than losers. One of those weeks was a 500 week. I know you lose money when you go 500 gambling, but it was an equal number of winners and losers. And then two losing weeks,

including Wild Card Weekend, which was pretty bad, I get it. But that was the better, you know, 63%, maybe not the best season I've ever had, but top three. But the best part about it was just the number, number of weeks that there were more winners and a lot more winners than losers. So one more pick, and it's, of course, an underdog. I prefer underdogs, and I'm taking New England plus the points.

And look, for the purposes of this show pick, I'm giving out New England plus five. I'm staring at a plus five at MyBooky. If you're going to play this game and you like the Patriots, you can get it at plus five right now. If you go to mybooky.ag or my bookie.com. If you do, please use my promo code. DC reload, DCR-E-L-O-A-D. And they'll give you a 50% cash bonus. But I see some plus four and a halves out there.

I see some fours, but I see a five right now. And I'm taking New England plus the five. I don't think that'll be a bad number by kickoff. I don't think it's going to go up. It could. I mean, the thing about the Super Bowl is a lot of money comes in late. If anything, I would guess it would stay in the plus four and a half to plus five range.

I like New England to win the game. I think all of this talk of Seattle deserves it. They're the much better team. New England's lucky to be here. The Patriots are kind of lucky to be here, but I think they're a good team, and I think they're really good defensively. And Seattle has not faced a good defensive team since the end of November. I mean, the Rams were not a good defensive team.

The 49ers were a terrible defensive team. That's their last three games. And I just think that that's going to be a test. And I think Darnold could be pressured and sacked and turn the ball over, especially if New England can stop the run, which I think is the key to the game. And then offensively, the Seattle defense is great. But I think New England can move the football. I like their receivers.

I do. I think Houston's defense much better than Seattle. Seattle's. I think Denver's defense on the road in that environment with the weather was more problematic than Seattle's defense will be. Is it possible Drake May doesn't play well again and doesn't protect the football? Yes, but two weeks of prep, Rabel's great. He's kind of been there, not as a coach, but as a player. I like the Patriots to win the game. I also like the game to be higher scoring than most people think. They're expecting a low scoring game. This this is, you know, pure contrarian, you know, handicapping philosophy and my personality when it

comes to this. The number is 45 and a half on the total. This is not a pick. The actions actually split on the total. But I would guess that, you know, it's something like 27, 23, one way or the other, but I like New England potentially to win the game. I think the best result for the books probably is New England covering, but maybe not winning.

They may have some exposure there with the pay. Patriots on the money line. The comeback at MyBooky plus 196 plus 200 essentially. So $100 win you at $200 if they win the game. But the official play, New England plus five. Final play of the year. And I like them to win the game outright. There were some things that I was going to include on the show today that I will include on

Monday's show. Jaden Daniels spoke on Radio Row yesterday about David Blow. I'll play that for you on Monday. We had all the award winners. Matt Stafford, the MVP. I'm glad he won the MVP. I thought he was the best player this year. Barely won it over Drake May.

Miles Garrett, a runaway winner is the defensive player of the year. JSN, the Jackson Smith and Jigba, the offensive player of the year. The rookies of the year, Ted McMillan in Carolina. And then the linebacker in Cleveland, Swessinger. He was outstanding. and then Bobby Wagner won the Walter Peyton Man of the Year Award. He had a great speech at the end of it. But some of the things that I was planning on getting to today, I will get to on Monday.

But of course, the story of the day in our area is the passing of number nine. Rest in peace, Sunny. Just an unbelievable all-time great and a great person as well. All right, that's it for the day. I'll be back on Monday, obviously, with the Super Bowl recap. Enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the game. He was a magician with that ball.

He could make a ball look like he was going to go at a linebacker and then all of a sudden go right into the hole and the receiver. When you watched him play, you really felt like you were watching an artist as much as you were watching a quarterback.