The Kevin Sheehan Show - Sportsbook Favors Name Change

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

Kevin today opened with more on the ownership change and the overwhelming odds from one sportsbook favoring a future name change. Tom Friend who covered the Redskins in the late '80s for the Washington Post and is a lifelong fan was a guest as was Neil In Rockville to recap the Mary Jo White investigation.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Tom Friend, who covered the Redskins for the Washington Post back in the late 80s, and is also a lifelong fan of the team.

He grew up in Chevy Chase. He is going to join us in the next segment. We'll get his reaction to Josh Harrison Company taking over the team. and then Neil and Rockville will finish up with us. I promised you on Friday, and I had not read through it, the Mary Joe White investigation, which resulted in a $60 million fine of Dan Snyder, which was taken off the top on the sale closing the other day.

I have read through, not all of it, I'm not going to lie to you, it's 22 pages. I read through kind of the summary and the findings. Neil and Rockville will jump on with us in the final. segment and kind of walk us through what happened in that investigation and what it concluded. So Tom Friend in the next segment, Neil and Rockville after that. The show today is brought to you by the two biggest pools in Vegas, the Circa Million and the Circa Survivor. First of all, if you're in Vegas anytime soon, the Circa Sportsbook is the biggest. It's the best. Their resort,

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and speaking of the podcast and the audience size, we are ranked 12th. on the Apple podcast charts in the sports football category. We've been as high as eight, I think, or seven recently. And we're consistently highly, highly ranked on the Apple podcast charts, which is kind of like a billboard, you know, chart for podcasts. But we do very well, and it's all because of you guys, the number of people that listen to the podcast.

and it really helps when you rate us and review us and follow us. Following us is a big deal on Apple and Spotify as well. This from Silent Surge via Apple Podcasts. I grew up a Cowboys fan, and my brother was a Redskins fan in the 80s. I'm not going to lie, I miss the Redskins being good, or should I say commanders. Either way, I appreciate listening to Kevin, Tom, and Cooley. Kevin and his guests are great. When my team is bad, all the Cowboys Media look for excuses.

Kevin gives it to you straight. I'm a Kevin fan. Thank you. I appreciate that. And, you know, it's interesting. I always, I mean, I don't feel this way as much anymore. But when he said I miss the Redskins being good as a Cowboys fan, my best memories of, you know, this franchise,

are when they're good, you know, when Washington's good, obviously, but then the rest of the division is good, too. And we've had very few occurrences during the last quarter century of Redskin Cowboys games, you know, having significant stakes. I did play for you guys one of the all-time, you know, memorable Redskin Cowboy games, which was the first Snyder game in 1999, which was the Rocket Ishmael game. 41 to 35. They had the 35-14 lead, blew it. Aikman threw five touchdowns. Brad Johnson threw for 382. But Rocket Ishmile in overtime got behind everybody and scored on a 76-yard touchdown pass,

41-35. But you think about it, man. Just the number of Redskin Cowboy games that have truly meant something. There have been some memorable games, the Monday Night Miracle, the Sean Taylor, you know, Troy Vincent blocks the field goal, Sean picks it up, Nick Novak kicks the game winner. That was in 2006. It wasn't much of a season. You know, I think the biggest game that the Cowboys and Redskins have played during the Snyder era would have to be the 2012 season finale. It would have to be that game, which was a game for the NFC East title. Both teams were in win or go home mode. even though I think the hype for the Thanksgiving Day game in 2016, when both teams in terms of their aggregate record at the time, the Cowboys were 9 in 1, Washington was 6.3 in 1, that was the best aggregate record between the two teams during the Snyder era by far. And that was both teams were pretty damn good. Now, Washington ultimately did. didn't make it to the postseason. We remember the giant game at the end of that season.

But I think the feeling I had going into that Thanksgiving Day game in 2016, man, I mean, that's now seven years ago. And I think, you know, I can probably say that that is the last time or that season, although 2017, I was really, I was into that season in 2017. In 2018, when they started off, you know, six and three, even though I did not think it was a good team necessarily. You know, it was good that they were playing, you know, decent football with Alex Smith in the first year there. I would have to say that those were the last few years when I really still had a super high level of passion. Now, many have already accused me after listening to Friday's show and even Thursday show, of all of the sudden being back. Doc called me after the radio show this morning.

Well, first he texted me and then he called me and he just said, you're back. I can hear it in your voice. I don't think I'm back completely yet. I don't. But I do feel like after years of thinking it's all wrong, I do think after Friday, I think things are right again with the franchise. Like I think, you know, we now, as I talked about on Friday, can talk about a team that will be, you know, a competent NFL franchise. Whether or not that results in Super Bowl trips and playoff wins, I don't know. But I do think that, you know, basically we went through 24 years. of it just being wrong and it feeling wrong. And now with Dan gone, it just feels better.

And I felt that certainly at the bullpen last Thursday. And I felt that since kind of Thursday in many ways. Although there is still one, you know, very heated issue, which I'm going to get to here in a moment with this fan base. But, you know, if you miss the show, by the way, yeah, that 2016 game, the Cowboys Redskins game on Thanksgiving Day, 31-26 Cowboys. The build-up for that game all week long, and then the Cowboys crowd on that Thanksgiving Day afternoon,

it felt like a Washington Dallas game from way back in the day. The intensity, and when you get a Dallas crowd that's that loud, you know it's a big deal. By the way, that in the moment was the most watched, Fox regular season game in history. Now, I think that's been surpassed. I think it has, but it's still probably a top three regular season Fox game of all time. So if you missed the Friday show, which I know I got out very late Friday night, early Saturday morning,

we had some issues in the studio last week with thunderstorms. I don't know if you guys remember. There were a couple of days thunderstorms, and we had some power. power outages and we had to reboot and start over on Friday's show, actually, after it had been mostly recorded. But anyway, not your problem. That was mine. But, you know, for those that missed it, you can go back and listen to it, but I'll just, you know, share again some of my thoughts about Friday. I loved it. I thought that Josh Harris nailed it. I thought Josh Harris nailed it. I thought Josh Harris, Mitchell, Rails, Magic Johnson, just crushed it. I felt great about

watching that press conference for, you know, all of the obvious reasons. It wasn't Dan. But I think that the way they approached it, the way it was planned, I'll give their PR people some credit for this. You know, they kept it short. The Q&A was very short. We just, like one of the things, and I didn't necessarily mention this on the other day on Friday. Sometimes when you get this, especially when you get a new coach or a new group in a situation that wasn't very successful, you get kind of a reading of the resumes throughout the, you know, an introductory press conference. I didn't feel like we got that at all. I think they, you know, I didn't want them to mention the Snyder's name. They didn't mention the Snyder's name. I didn't want them to blow off the name issue as something

that wasn't important to them. They did not do that. I just thought that it felt honest and authentic is I guess the word I would use. Josh Harris came off to me as really, really honest, and you could kind of just sense that this is so important to him, for starters. And, and And, you know, that I think this is going to be his preferred team, for sure, of all the teams that he owns. But I just had this sense that this was a guy, he kept saying, you know, over and over again, how much he, you know, sweated it. And he is stressed. And, you know, he talked about the sleepless nights. And that, to me, just says, this is a guy that really cares and gets it.

Like he understands that there's big time expectations, even though he's got this honeymoon period for sure, but that he's the one that decided to take this big leap by a team that was important to him growing up as it was to Dan, okay? But that it's been wrecked and it's his job to fix it. And that's a big responsibility. And I talked about this on Friday show too. It's not just that. You know, he has $4 billion roughly of investors. That's pressure, man.

He's feeling the stress. He's sweating a lot of things right now. Look at his point in his life, he didn't necessarily have to jump into something that he would truly sweat. You know, $6 billion he paid for this team. four billion roughly of it in investors' money. You know, anybody out there listening that's ever raised capital for a business, you know the pressure that comes with that. You know how it feels to have essentially the responsibility of delivering a return to these people.

You know, when you're the owner, you're the head honcho, those that do it right, these are things they feel, they care about. You know, if you invest in a business with somebody that you sense doesn't really necessarily sweat the money you've given to them, it's probably not the right guy. I don't know. I just think it was a sign, him talking over and over again about the stress of this. It's a sign that he honestly cares that this is a guy that really wants to please everybody, doesn't want to let anybody down. And I don't know. I never felt that way once about Dan over the years. Yeah.

I felt good about it. I felt good about the open letter that, you know, appeared in the post yesterday. I thought that was a really nice touch. So anyway, you know, look, we've been oversold and underdelivered to for 24 years, and I didn't feel that they started off the process trying to sell us. They don't have to sell us right now. We, like I said on Friday, we're all bought in, you know. They don't need to promise anything.

They don't need to read resumes about the other businesses they've succeeded in. They just need to show us. You know, they just need to show us the results. and really for the time being, show us how much they care. Like we are going to be close enough to this thing following the day to day. I think we're going to feel whether or not, you know, these are the right people based on, you know, how much they care. And truly, you know, how they ultimately treat people. You know, from afar, we'll see the results on the field for the next few years.

But we're also going to see, you know, the results of the stadium search. We're going to see the results of, you know, them getting this current stadium into a state that is, you know, presentable. We're going to all hear, or many of us will be hearing how they treat people in the community, how they treat business partners. You know, for years, and I told you guys this, it wasn't just the product on the field. It was the constant, constant discussion from people who had participated with the team, partnered with the team, been a customer. of the team, that just every experience was worse than the one that preceded it in terms of hearing these stories. You know, they just were consistently treated like, man, I hope you know, how lucky you are that we're giving you this opportunity to spend your money with us. Just not the way anybody,

a lot of those people were used to, you know, it's not the way partnerships typically. felt for them. And, you know, once the product on the field continued to suck year after year, you know, this is what hurt the team. Again, the lovable loser idea, there are lovable losers, you know, when you treat your customers well, when your customers like you, they're willing to put up with more. But they didn't have any of that room. They had to perform eventually on the field. They couldn't, you know, continue to embarrass themselves. off of it because they had treated their partners and their customers so poorly. It was such a one-sided relationship. So those are the kinds of things that I think we're going to get,

you know, and we'll hear. I'm not, I swear to you, of course, I guess they could do something really stupid and I would have to, I would have to weigh in on it. But I really feel like this is two to three years of sitting back and, you know, talking about the games, talking about the team, the football stuff, obviously we will get after. But I don't know that there's going to be, I can't envision right now, of course, anything can happen, the scenario where we end up being super critical of ownership in the first two years, or first even three years. Look, it's very possible that the whole football operation gets a clean start next year.

year and that we're, you know, this time next year we're going into the first season with a whole new group, which means at that point you got to give that a couple of years. But the other stuff we're going to see and we're going to feel hopefully. I don't know, it's a new day. It's someone else's turn. I feel good about it for the time being anyway. Yeah. So I want to read something, and I did this on radio this morning. I want to read an email from this guy, Evan, because this is still the thing that's kind of annoying me. I think that this has gotten a little bit out of hand with some of you. Evan wrote me the following email. Kevin, you have lost total focus. The name and brand should not be anyone's focus.

Winning matters, the stadium matters, and that's it, period. And he writes, in capital letters with an exclamation point. A stupid name has you and so many others bent so sideways that you can barely enjoy that Dan's gone. That was from Evan. Follow me on Twitter at Kevin Sheehan, D.C. You can send emails to the kevincian show.com website where you can also very easily listen to this podcast.

you know, I just, I have gotten to the point where this irritates me. I admit it. You know, the name thing, the position that many have taken on this name thing to me is just annoying. You know, look, it's provoking too, no doubt, because I'm responding to it now for maybe the, you know, the third time in three or four months. And maybe the provoking is something that's intended, you know. and by the way, if that's the game you're playing, you're just trying to provoke, you're winning. I just don't know, like, with people like Evan, they're just so limited.

It's embarrassing how limited they are. I mean, first of all, Evan, how many times can I say that winning matters most? It's people like you that keep putting out this idea that the only thing Shean cares about are people like she and care about is the name. It's just not true. That's a lie and you know that. How many times can I say winning matters the most? I mean, seriously, you're the one twisting and bending yourself sideways

to make yourself think that you're the only one that's got the appropriate focus. And this has become kind of a trend among, you know, a few in the fan base that have an issue with tackling more than one thing at a time. And by the way, we're not even tackling one thing more than one thing at a time. We're just talking about more than one thing at a time. You know, the team is trying to tackle more than one thing at a time. We're just talking about it and it bothers people like Evan. The whole, you know, priority, you got your priorities wrong, the focus, rant, it's just, it's annoying and I think you're just embarrassing yourself, really. You're admitting how limited you are, and you don't even know it.

There are times, okay, where you enter a messy situation and you need focus, okay? There's that word focus. But there's still, you know, a list. There's still a list of the things. things that need to be fixed, even if you focus on, you know, two to three things on the list. Like, hey, we've got a game in a few weeks. We need to make the stadium safe for the people that are going to the games. We need to make the stadium look like something less than garbage, which it's looked like for years.

You know, training camps starts tomorrow. They report first practice Wednesday. Ron's got a press conference tomorrow. afternoon. Let's make sure that, you know, Martin and Marty and Ron have everything they need. If Cam Curl needs a contract extension now, that's a priority now. You know, let's help our football people achieve right now in the short term. We've got some things that are priorities because they have to be taken care of now. But that doesn't mean that other things can't be on the list, too.

successful people, Evan, plan, strategize, all right, even while prioritizing. I would guess that that's probably not you. You know, and I said this earlier, and I know that this is condescending, so I'm admitting how condescending it is going into it. And I'm not suggesting that all of you that have been lecturing about the name are this way. but I just have this sense about Evan that he is a Monday through Friday 9 to 5er. 17 floating holidays never ever would consider coming in and working on weekends. Well, I promise you that somebody like Josh Harris didn't become a billionaire but by not going in on Saturdays and Sundays occasionally and starting to knock things off the list.

Anyway, I guess the big thing I don't get that I don't really understand, since we're not the ones tasked with fixing the stadium or signing Cameron Curl to a contract extension, we're just here talking about this. Why can't we focus on more than one thing? Why can't we talk about more than one thing? And I would say this, the name, like, it's really barely a topic in terms of the percentage of things that we talk about. I understand that my passion towards this subject may be influential in you thinking that we talk much more about this, but we really don't. But look, some of us can just talk, do, feel about more than one thing at a time. All right. So just relax, Evan. And I also just want to reiterate what I said a few months back. I don't have a problem with people who like the new name or just don't care about the new name one way or the other or don't really want it change for whatever reason. You're entitled to that opinion. That's your prerogative. You know, and if you don't like when people like me have a strong, you know, emotional opinion about it, go do something else when I'm talking about it. That's fine. Go focus on

winning in stadium stuff like you're being asked to do it. I just, there are no hurt feelings here when you don't agree with me. That's not my issue. It apparently is for Evan and people like Evan. I'm not a fan of what was done. I'm pretty sure the old name's not coming. back, although I'd still give it like a 1% chance. But, you know, the truth is, and I mentioned this a few months ago, I wouldn't advocate to Josh Harris and Mitchell Rails and Magic Johnson to bring the old name back. I mean, I would love for it if they really made the case that they could go out and persuade, you know, enough Native Americans, which we know the polling is overwhelming in favor of the

name being okay. But, you know, they'd probably have to do more than that this go-around. But look, if I had just paid $6 billion for this franchise, I'm not going to stir up the same Hornets Nest that existed here prior to the name dropping. But I do have a strong, strong opinion on this. I would go with Washington. I've said that many times and then let everybody else, and I would go back to the old uniforms, and I would, you know, let everybody have their own nicknames, hogs, skins, whatever it is. but I don't know on this name conversation

it's not whether you're for it or against it it's the way that those that are against it like Evan seem to be close-minded first of all they they you know twist the way people like I feel about it you know they're close-minded to the other view they're close-minded to you know lists and priorities etc but I just think we can talk about more than one thing at a time especially since we're just talking about it. Anyway, feel the way you want to feel. It's a very emotional, subjective, personal thing with a lot of us.

And I'm going to tell you, and I've told you this before, you're not going to change my mind, and you're not going to change the minds of the people who had this very emotional connection to the team for most of their lives. You know, I think that there's a really good chance that winning, which is the top priority, will reconnect with some of those people, but there are some, they are dug in. I wouldn't say I'm dug in at all. I know people who are dug in that are not ever going to root for this team in terms of their position today until this name and a

rebrand is done. But again, have at it. Feel the way you want to. to feel. Just don't lecture those of us that don't feel the way you feel. And I don't really care about, here's the person that I don't care about in terms of their view on this. You're entitled to your view. I don't need the guy who is an NFL fan who just moved to D.C. in the last five years. I don't need him to scream at me to stand down on the name and rebrand. This is a conversation for family members only. You've got to have your bona fides or bonafetes or however you pronounce that word. You got to be a legit long-term fan. I went through all the list of things you got to know. I mean, you just, you got to, you got to have felt this, not read about it.

All right. Speaking of that, one other quick thing, because Aaron Oster sent this to me right before the show. I look forward on my bookie. My bookie does not have this. Okay, just FYI. But there are odds out on bed online for the Washington NFL franchise's next name. Okay?

first of all, they have a question. Will Washington's NFL name change? Okay? Listen very carefully. Bet online, okay? Will Washington's NFL change? Will Washington change their name? Yes is minus 400.

No is plus 250. Understand that? Yes. a heavy favorite per bet online. I haven't seen this prop bet up on my bookie yet. In terms of the names, the odds, the favorite, this is surprising to me, okay? The favorite is Spartans at plus 600.

Washington football team or Washington Football Club is plus 700. Then the Red Hogs are plus 800. The Washington Magic or the Magicians is plus 900. The Armada is plus 1,000. Presidents plus 1,100. Senators plus 1,200. Wolves plus 1,200. Sentinels plus 1,200.

The D.C.'s plus 1,200. Ambassadors, defenders, brigade. Red tails is plus 1,200. Owls, crimson, red pigs plus 2,000. Monuments plus 3,300. And the Redskins are plus 5,000. They're the long shot. But the favorite is Spartans, the Washington Spartans?

I had not heard that. Was that even in the running? And then Washington Football Club is the second favorite, or Washington football team. So there are odds up, at least at bed online, and Washington's team name changing is a prohibitive minus 400 favorite. interesting. I said the other day on the podcast, I think it will change too, but I'd make it a slight minus 10,

minus 115, minus 120 favorite, somewhere around there. All right, let's get to Tom Friend. We will do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Jumping on with us right now is Tom Friend. Tom covered the team,

had the big beat for the Washington Post, following Christine Brennan covering the team in the late 80s. More than that, though, Tom grew up here, and he is a massive fan. And we've communicated a little bit on social media over the years, and Tom was on the podcast a few years ago, I think, and the radio show a couple of times as well. And it's funny because last week I was thinking about some of you guys. I was thinking about Len Shapiro.

I was thinking about you. I had Len on the podcast last week. I reached out to a couple of other people who were just tied up. But, you know, especially for you because you're from here, I just wanted to sort of gauge your response. But before we get to that, because you and I were talking right before we started to record here, so I remember you and, you know, well, I remember you very much so because you were the big Washington Post Beat reporter.

I was this lowly producer having just gotten out of college working at Channel 5. And that was my first job for two years covering the team for the station for the most part. So where did you go from that, you know, those late 80s years? You left for the national, I think. But then what happened after that? Hey, Kevin. I'm just a kid from Chevy Chase. I'm just a kid from Chevy Chase like that.

Tom from Chevy Chase calling in. All right, go ahead. Well, no, I left the beat. I got sucked into that whole The National. I mean, Frank the Ford called you. And I remember when I interviewed at the Washington Post, interviewing with Ben Bradley, you know, they are sure you through the managing editor and you sit there and you're just mesmerized because you're interviewing with Ben Bradley.

I couldn't get two words out. And it felt the same way when Frank DeFord recruited me out of the Post to go to the National with a columnist. So I went to L.A. to be the National's L.A. columnist. That's where I went. And then the National folded, what, 18 months, you know, they were only around of 18 months. And then I wrote Dexter Manley's book right after that. Okay.

I wrote his autobiography with him. And then I went to the New York Times. And I was in New York Times for five years, and I went to ESPN for 20. So that's how it all kind of played out. What are you doing these days? I am the NBA writer for Sports Business Journal. I'm now at Sports Business Journal. I do long-form features for them.

I still do documentaries. I just did a documentary that came out for Showtime earlier this spring on Mahmouda Dura Roof. We did, it was called Stand. I did that documentary as a producer, did the interviews. You're talking about, you're talking about Chris Jackson, that one. Chris Jackson, that's the man. Yeah, yeah. We did the whole story.

What a player. What was the, what was it that he had Tourette's? He had Tourette's, right? Tourette's syndrome. Yeah. syndrome. And he didn't know he had. He thought there was something really, really weird about him, but he didn't know what it was. He couldn't put it in the words. People thought he was, they put him in a special ed class because he was, he had Tourette. No one knew what it was. He's in Mississippi, Gulf War Mississippi. No one knows what it is. And it got diagnosed when he was in high school. And, you know, he used to, the headstakes that he got from, he had from Tourette's helped him on the basketball. That's crazy. I mean, I remember, you know, So, first of all, I remember what a great college basketball player he was at LSU.

But I remember, you know, the fasting during Ramadan in the NBA, and he would be, you know, he'd basically have no energy, but he still played pretty well. I mean, yeah, go ahead. Well, the great story is Jaylon Rhodes used to put like, you know, his teammate was Jaylon Rose, a young Jaylon Rose. He used to put like cookies and everything in his locker during Ramadan just to mess with him. I mean, it was, they had no sympathy back then, no play. There's, you know, him and Akeem, him Akeem Olajuwon with the only ones doing it.

And, you know, it was a chore. Elijah won did it, too, that's right? And he played, what, mostly in Denver, right? Or maybe not? Where else to be? No, no. Mood was in Denver, and, you know, what happened was after he refused to stand for the National Anthem, eventually, you know, they just got rid of him.

And he got traded to Sacramento, and it was out of the league two years later. And, you know, he was basically blackballed. I mean, that's really the story that we did for the doctor. is that this is the first Kaepernick. Everybody talks about Kaepernick. Yeah. The original Kaepernick was Mahmoud, and Mahmood was never celebrated the way Kaepernick has been celebrated for taking a stand, but Mahmood really did it first.

And, you know, the documentary ends with him at the NBA finals. The year before last, and he's still sitting for the national anthem. You know, he still sits. So is that out? I mean, can I watch that? Oh, yeah. On Showtime. On Demand.

Showtime. on demand. What's it called again? Stand. I'm writing that one down because I think I would enjoy that. I'm curious what you think. Seriously, let me know because it's up your alley. Yeah, I will. For sure. I'm sure it's really good.

I know how thoughtful you are on these things. So, you know, by the way, so you grew up in Chevy Chase. Where did you go to school? Well, I grew up in Chevy Chase. I went to Rollingwood Elementary School, the same elementary. school at Josh Harris and Mark Eind went to. They were in the same grade as my little sister. Mark Eind lived down the street from me.

Josh Harris, I remember him. And I used to be a patrol. That people from Montgomery County, I grew up. I was a patrol. So literally, I had to, like, kids are walking the street and I'm making sure it's safe. And I remember these guys, you know. I was a sixth grader when they were second graders.

And I formed a football team at Rollingwood Elementary's called the Rollingwood Redskins. We were like a pickup football team. Every day after school, we'd meet at Rock Creek Park, and we'd play football. And I was the quarterback, and I had the football. That's why I was quarterback, right? So, you know, that was it. These kids, I remember them.

And, you know, they were great kids. They were just kids, you know. Yeah. Who knew, right? Yeah, well, I mean, I was a patrol and probably a patrol in lots of Redskins gear at Wood Acres Elementary School in Bethesda. Right there, my crossing area was Cyril Terrace and Cromwell Drive for anybody that knows that particular neighborhood. But that's interesting.

So I'm just curious. Do you know them now? And then I went to high school. I moved. My family moved. I went to Wharton High School in Rockville. You went to Wooten, yeah. Okay, yeah, I went to Whitman.

So Rollingwood, though, in Chevy Chase wouldn't have gone into Wooten. That would have gone into BCC. Because I know more, Mark. My sister went to BCC. Okay, yeah, because Mark, you know, and I know a lot of the same people from, you know, a lot of my middle school, which was called junior high school back then, was Western Junior High. Where did you go to a junior, where'd you go to junior high? I went to Robert Frost. Yeah, of course, Frost.

Jesus, you're probably, well, you are. We have many mutual friends. Oh, well, and all my cousins went to Frost and Wooten. We can talk about that later. But what I was going to say is that Western Junior High School, when I was there, half the kids went to BCC and half the kids went to Whitman. And so some of Mark's friends from BCC were friends of mine, you know, in middle school and junior high school. Anyway, whatever. We're getting sidetracked here.

But, you know, you grew up a huge Redskins fan, a huge D.C. Sports fan. So let's get to it. How did you feel last week? I never thought I'd lived to see the day, man. I was sure I was going to die before that ever should change. And, you know, it was surreal. I mean, I did a story on him in 99 for the ESPN magazine. I was working at ESPN magazine.

And I went to interview him at FedEx Field before a preseason game. They set it up. Pat Wicksday was a PR guy. Yeah, sure. I set it up. And I interviewed him, and I, you know, my brother went to Woodward, which where he went, all his connections. And it didn't move.

I tried to strike up a conversation. Just like, hey, man, I'm from the same area. You know, we know it was nothing there. It's like there was no there there with Dan Snyder. I just, I just remember feeling blank expression. It was just, it was just no connection. There was no warmth. It was very steely.

It was strange. And I remember I write this story. I'm sure I wrote a favorable story on him because this guy was a fan of the team. But as the years went on, it just became embarrassing to be a fan. And you talk about someone, I mean, I was very fortunate. My dad had used to take it to the skins. I didn't miss a game from the time I was 8 until I went to college. I flew in from, I went to Missouri.

I flew in for the NFC championship game during my junior year of college. I wasn't going to miss that 82 game. It's just this team is the light is my blood. I grew up at that stadium. is my second home. And, you know, for me, it's just, it was a surreal moment. I was embarrassed to be a skin fan and, you know, for a long time. I just almost even stopped saying, I don't live in the D.C. area anymore,

but, you know, it's just, it's embarrassing nationally when you told people you were a fan of the of the team. And so now I think it's changed, you know. So, you know, see, in 99, so you write this story for ESPN the magazine, but I asked this question on radio last week. Tommy and I talked about it on the podcast. When did you for sure know? I mean, look, your first impression was hardly one of being impressed. And I talked about the other day. Like, I was actually really impressed with the press conference on Friday. I don't think once in the 24 years I ever said to myself or anybody else, man, that Dan Snyder is an impressive guy. because he just wasn't in any way, shape, or form.

And that was long before I knew what a bad owner he was going to become. When do you think you knew that we were all in big trouble with him as the owner? Like, there wasn't any hope. It started when he started charging fans for season for ticket. To go to training camp. Right. When he starts, that was the first red flag to me. I was like, why would you do something like that?

It just fits off the wrong foot. When he started firing everybody, remember there was this huge purge, all these people had been there for years. I knew these people, and he just, he just asked everybody. And listen, I was very close with a former agent named Gary Wichard. Of course, I remember, Gary. He passed away, like, 10 years ago. He was cool.

He was Coolie's agent. He was cool, he was also, he was terrific. Ralph Suggs' agent. He was Dwight Freeney's agent. He was Brian Bosworth's agent. He was to watch the Brian Boggart documentary. He'd get skewered in it. But the bottom line is that Gary and I were friendly, and Gary was very tight with Vinnie Serrado. So I would hear stories from Vinnie through Gary that would just blow your mind. And so I knew very early this is a whack job. You know, I just knew. And I tried to, my whole thing was, hey, he's a fan of the team, man. He's a fan like I am. He's not going to do something to hurt this franchise. That was always my go-to. But back of my mind, I'm not really good. But he wasn't really. How big a fan could he have been to do this? I don't know. You know, the Vinny Serato stories and the way he treated Vinny, we've all heard so many of these stories over the years. And, you know, I think I've always been. hesitant to sort of share them on the air

because they've always been secondhand. Like I wasn't there the night that people claim that Dan took, you know, a cigar and put it out on Vinny's leg you know, in a restaurant. But we've heard those stories, you know, we know,

because Mike Nolan actually talked about it, I think the vanilla ice cream story and many others. But, you know, to me, like, and I think you know this, like, at the radio station, we were, you know, we were the flagship for the team. We were owned by this company that Dan owned.

So there was a lot of us at the radio station for many years that really had a sense of, you know, just how arrogant and how, you know, incompetent these people were. For me, it was always he is a raging bully who's got a Napoleonic complex and is wildly insecure. that was always the way I kind of viewed him. I didn't really know about the toxic stuff related to the treatment of women and the misogyny that was going on. But you had, like you just said, you knew a lot of people, you were hearing a lot of stories. I always felt that it was like the bullying from the, you know, whatever the root cause of that is, I'm not going to do the diagnosis here.

What did you think? Well, I think you nailed it. I think he was a lot of insecurity. I think this was a kid who no one remembers at Woodward because he was unmemorable. Right. You know, I don't think that he was a very popular kid. I think he just was insecure. I think that's a lot of it.

I also think that Vinny, he picked on Vinny because he wanted to control Vinny because he could control Vinny. He wasn't going to hire a strong gym. I remember talking to them during the whole Shotpimer thing. he hated Schontheimer. I mean, I mean, you know, Vinny didn't like Schaheimer,

but Dan just couldn't enjoy himself. And this has all been written, but I'm just saying that I heard stories then that, you know, behind Marty's back that Dan was just, you know, backstabbing and sabotaging him and saying, you know,

bad things to everybody about Marty. He wanted them out. And the team turned it around and goes eight and eight, and you know they were going to make them that sleep, but they got the quarterback. Yep. So, you know,

I actually what I heard back then, and there's more you could hear, but I don't know if it's before I'm just saying. But, you know, not a quality person. And, you know, I don't want to pile on. It's just. No, I hear you. I kind of feel the same way at this point, like, what's the point? But it's like the, you know, I had Spurrier on the show two or three months ago.

And Spurrier did not, you know, he was very hesitant to really talk about it. It was interesting, Tom, because I kind of got this sense that he didn't know how many of us actually enjoyed him, you know, and his whole demeanor is personality. For him, Washington's just the nightmare of his career, right? But it all started with Dan basically promising Bobby Beatherd. And Dan never had any intention of hiring Bobby Beatherd, did he? Well, I thought Rick Schneider told the story It's pretty insane If Bobby had to make the decision

You know, within you have 15 minutes Oh yeah, right Bobby gets Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, he didn't have any You know, he wasn't going to be able to control Bobby, right? Right.

So why would Dan want Bobby? Yeah. You know, and with Joe, he hires Joe because the Joe let him, they have a voice, right? Yeah. So, you know, he wanted some people people he could control. I just know that the people that were around him just, it was just bad.

It's bad. I don't, you know, there's no piling on stories I could share right here, but it's just. All right. Well, let's look forward, but before we look forward, I do want to find out from you. So the years that you were on the beat in 88 and 89 were two non-playoff seasons. You know, one of those was the 10 and 6th year where they didn't go, and the other one was the defending champs. But you were working for the Post in 87 when they won Super Bowl 22. So give me some of your favorite stories from those three years covering the team for the Post.

My first day on the beat, okay? The first day on the beat is the day of the replacement game against the Calvarez. I was working at the L.A. time. I start my first day as that Monday, right? It's a Monday night game. My assignment is to go to Rick Doc Walker's restaurant and observe the real Redskins watching the game as a group. Now, they went into the game thinking they're going to get killed, right?

They thought the replacement teams, you know, the Dorset's playing for the Cowboys. Danny White. He's playing for the Cowboys, Danny White, the old thing. Yeah. And I'll never forget, you know, the first got a cheer was all of a sudden with Barry Wilburne. He just started cheering for the skin, you know, the replacement skins. And everybody kind of stared him down. Like, what are you doing?

Because these are scabs. The whole joint was just fired up. You know, they were all cheering for him. That was my first day. And I remember going in the PR room, and also the first day I might be Bill Brubaker. I don't know if you remember Bill Brubaker. He was a investigative reporter for the Washington Post. He wrote a scathing.

No, Dan Snyder thinks the Post was out to get him. Oh, my God. They were out to get every owner. I mean, Dan, Bill Brubaker wrote, wrote a nasty piece about Jack Kent Cook. It ran the day of my first day on the beat. And I remember going to Redskinned Park the first day, and Phyllis was great, but she was the PR, you know,

from the PR staff. And she goes, Dexter walks up and says, and she goes, Dexter, don't talk to him. He's from the post. And Dexter says, okay, and Dexter pulled me aside and said, I want to talk to you. You're in Prasana and Gras. I want to talk to you. So Dexter and I became very close the first day. You know, it's just, it was, it was, you know, when you're a kid growing up at D.C., you cover the team you grew up rooting for, it changes everything.

I, all of a sudden, I wasn't the fan that I was before for those years because I remember Gary Clark didn't write something I didn't like something I wrote about Art Monk, and I was a huge fan of this team, but Art Monk had dropped some passes against the Rams on a Monday night football game at 87, I think it was. or maybe another year, no, 87, and Gary just got so mad at me. Oh, my gosh. So he wouldn't talk me for a while, so your fandom kind of goes away for a little bit. And the other thing, Kevin, is Joe Gibbs' worst year was that 88, 80, those two years, 889, when I say worst years, the team was starting to turn on him a little bit.

I don't know if you remember this. I don't. But I remember how bad they were in 88, you know, even though, you know, they were still in the fight until late in the season. But that was the only losing season Joe had. So 88, the season starts out with raw. The kicker for the Giants makes this ridiculously 52-yard kick to beat them on a Monday night. Yeah. It just, you know, it wasn't their year.

Everything was going wrong. and but the thing is the team there was a segment of that team that thought that Joe if you had to be in the Bible group you had to be religious to play for the team to be on Joe's good side

and there were some players it started to for action the team a little bit when they start struggling that there were some players that thought you know you had to be on that side and if you weren't you were in trouble with Joe and the team started struggling

and there was a players only meet meeting where the players said, the heck with Joe. Because he was saying no personal foul penalty, no late hits, you're out of the game. He was tough on that. And some players said, hey, we need to be aggressive. And there was a team meeting where they basically said, the heck with Joe. And, you know, and someone told me about it, and I wrote it, and Joe called me in. It was one of the few times.

I never really got called in to get lectured by Joe very often, but he called me and said, who told you? And I said, I can't tell you that. and he went to a team meeting and called him out, said, who said this to the post? And no one stood up. But, you know, it was. And he turned it around.

If you noticed that as they got to 1990-1, kind of changed the roster a little bit to guys that were really, really, really, all football guys. I mean, this was no more of this guys who maybe were rebelling a little bit, and that 91 team you saw was just unbelievable. So who were the rebellious ones in 88-89? There were some guys. You know, Dexter was one of those guys.

But there was this guy, I'm trying to think, who... I mean, 89 is the year that they went 10 and 6, but didn't make the playoffs. But they were, they lost to the Cowboys, remember, Jimmy Johnson's 1 and 15 team. You know, on a Sunday night, that was the one win for Jimmy's first team. And basically cost Washington a playoff spot. Well, that's a team that lost that Eagles game. I don't know if you remember that Eagles game where... Oh, yeah, the shootout early in the season.

The shootout, but Gerald Rigg, I think it was Gerald Riggs fumbled. Yeah, exactly. And they ran it back 80 yards the other way. It was just there was some crazy calls in that game. And they just gave away some games. They were 0-2. They should have been 2-0. They lost, I think, the Giants and the Eagles were out to start.

Yeah, the Allegrae kick, you know, the 53-yard or whatever at the gun, exactly. It was just one of those years and everything went wrong, but they were like six and six, and they won their last four, and no one would have wanted to play them. And then they obviously, they didn't make the playoff to 10 and 6, and the next year they were better than 91. The team was different back than there was, it was still more of a Betherd Gibbs team. Yeah. You know, there was a schism there. You know, we've been through. Of course.

Beather and Gibbs were at odds. And, you know, Betherd wanted him to play Mike Amalfant, right? And Joe didn't want to play Mike Alaput because if Mike Alaphan's fumbled once, that was it. You could not be a fumbler and play for Joe Gibbs. Right. So there was that schism, and Charlie Cassidy kind of smoothed it over and the team became more in Joe's image by 9091. Yeah. Yeah.

The, I mean, what you just revealed to me that I didn't know is that there's some kind of players meeting and there's pushback on Joe. Now, I do remember and have heard over the years from, you know, all the guys that we've gotten to know at the station, that, you know, during some of those years, some of that stuff, you know, Joe, it got to be a bit too much for some of the guys. But the bottom line was the results were always there. So we as fans in the moment didn't really realize there was that stuff behind the scenes. Let's face it, by the way, if Joe and Bobby don't sort of. of start to separate a little bit. And you mentioned, you know, the reasons why, you know, Bobby wants Joe to play some guys. But Joe also, right, Tom, wanted a little bit more of a say in personnel.

Like he was starting to feel his oats with respect to personnel and wanted more of a say. Correct or not? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, this is a guy. He'd won the Super Bowl in 87. And, you know, that team, you know, his replacement, the way he coached that replacement team, I mean,

yeah. Unbelievable. Obviously, Bobby and Charlie got the players, but, you know, he, yeah, he was feeling as though, and it was his team.

And a cook was going to not choose Betherd over Gitt. That's all I was to it. It was, Bobby knew it. Everybody knew it. So Bobby looked to go elsewhere. Yeah. Because that power struggle,

you know, there had been a power struggle in, before with Pardt and Betherd, and Betherd won that, right? Yeah. You know, in fact,

You know, people talk about that 79 game with a Redskins would have had home field for the playoffs if they win that game against the Cowboys. I was a student at the University of Missouri when the Cardinals laid down for the fairs. Lost 44 points, yeah. I went nuts. I was so mad. And my whole classmate just laughed at me because, you know, trying because, anyway, the bottom line is, if that doesn't happen, you don't get gifts, right? Right. You know, because Beth Pardee would never have been gone. Exactly. So there was a power struggle that Bethard won in 80, but he was not going to.

win it in in 87, 88, whatever it was. And everybody knew it, and it was Gibbs' team, and he, as it should have been. I mean, he's the greatest coach I've ever been across, an amazing guy. But you have to understand, and you were there, Kevin, the 80s gives is nothing like all these newbies saw when he came back for 2.0. No. He was, he would not look you in the eye. He was so stressed. He's gritting his teeth after every practice. I mean, you know, he would tell stories for Vito Stilino once in a while after practice.

He'd kind of go off and tell him to the stories, but he was so uptight the first time. Those players feared him, those practices. There was no NFLPA telling you how long you could practice. They would hit on Thursday. That was a brutal team. That's why that team was so great. They were so physically mentally tough. And, you know, the second time around when Joe comes back, I visited him with a little bit then.

He was a different guy. He was a grandpa. You know, he was good old Joe. But when I knew him, as a beat guy, oh, my God. It was, that guy was so stressed. It was unbelievable. Why do you think he came back in 2004? You know, I mean, I don't think you can get it out of your blood, man.

I mean, I just, I just think that he, you know, Dan offered it to him, and he, you know, he'll always say that, you know, his kids grew up, and what's happened him is so tragic. I can't even get into that. But I just think he was ready. I don't think he went out. He went out too soon. I think if you really deep down, he admitted it.

that he just, he left too soon. He was a young man still. Yeah. And he just, you know, what was he in 93? He was like 51, 52 years old, right? Because he got the job at 40. I remember getting there early in the morning and, you know,

for my job, you know, going to the PR, there he is. You know, he's just waking up, but he's been there all night. It's just, what a scene it was. What a privilege I had to be able to cover that. Oh, my God. As a lifelong Washingtonian to be in that environment. I'll thank the post forever for that opportunity. It was unbelievable.

By the way, when you mentioned how tightly wound Joe was, my first job at a college was working for Steve Buckeance and Ernie Bauer at Channel 5, and I got for two years the opportunity to cover the team for the station. And as tightly wound as Joe was, Bobby was the absolute best. And I stayed in touch with Bobby. When I got back into the business in doing what I'm doing now, He was just the kindest guy. As you were telling that, telling that story,

I remember once, you know, camera, Bobby Bethard, one-on-one after practice. And, you know, I'm asking all these questions. And I'm not getting Bobby to actually, you know, give me the answer that I thought he, like he wasn't, we weren't connecting. So he just said, Kevin, what do you want me to say? I'll say it. And I said, no, I don't want to do it. That way, I just said, this is what I kind of thought we were going to talk about.

And he goes, oh, no, no, now I understand what you want. And he was just such a nice man, you know, and always so helpful. Was he that way with you guys? He was, well, let me go back. You know, okay, I take over the beat, and he and Christine were at odds now. Christine Brennan and him were not on a great terms. Christine would admit it. It was a tough beat.

I come right into it. he was not talking to her. So I had to come in, and there was a little bit of a rip for the post. Listen, people talk about the post and Snyder, it was just going on forever. I was like, person and I was the post. Yeah. So, you know, they thought we were out to get them. And, you know, so, yeah, at first, Bobby and I, I didn't get much access, but he knew he would pull me aside, say, it's not you, Tom.

It's not you. Yeah. Okay, it's the paper. It's your boss. It's not you. And so I would kind of be able to talk to him. And Charlie Cassidy was such a great guy. He moved it over.

It was fine. He was the best. And then when I came out to San Diego and lived and Bobby was the GM of the charges. And it was a whole different world. We could talk. I so admire him. Me too. He was the best.

But, you know, I remember you there. Listen, I remember Channel 5. The night that Dexter got, I found out that Dexter got suspended for substance for cocaine. and I had to get him for a comment, and he was doing Buccan's show. Oh, yeah. I'm waiting outside WTP. I'm outside on Connecticut Avenue, waiting for Dexter come out, Dexter sees me, and he tried to put on a smile, but he knew what I was there for.

And he slammed his hand against the car, and I'm showing my career is over. It was crazy. Oh, I know. It was crazy. Yeah, crazy times, but at least, I mean, at least that was the organization at its height, and they were winning. So, all right, let's come back to now. So, by the way, you were the patrol,

and you were keeping Josh and Mark Eind safe at Rollingwood Elementary. Do you know these guys at all? Mark Eind played tennis. Yeah. And my sister played tennis at BCC.C. My sister was very good players. She played there and their friends.

You know, I didn't know them that well. Okay. I'm not going to lie, sit here and say, no. No, I just knew. them. I'm a little bit older, but I knew who they were. And they had the same teachers I had, I'm sure, everything else.

So what do you think of them? Excuse me? What do you think of them as owners? I mean, have you looked into it? Do you have a gut feel on the kind of owner that Josh Harris is going to be? Mitch Rails, Magic Johnson?

Well, I can tell you right now, if I'm a Sixers fan, or a Devils fan, I'm a little bit. And I've heard someone else say this. I'd be concerned, too, because I think this is going to be his baby. I agree. This is near and dear. The press conference proved it again to me that these guys know what it takes.

They know what this franchise means to the city. It warms my heart because they feel the same way I feel that this is part of my identity is the Redskins. I hate to say it, but it is. I mean, that is the team I grew up with is everything. And I feel the same way with them. I thought Mitch Rale is like,

and I heard you say this, and I agree with you. He was amazing on that to hear him tell the stories. But, you know, look, you know, the fact that Josh talked about

Sonny and Billy and all these guys, they get it. And they've been down the road with owning teams. You know, you know, Josh has been through

one of the most incredible rebuilds in sports with the process when I call it like that. But what he did work, I mean, they didn't hit every draft pick.

And that's going to be the key here. With Josh, can only do so much. He's going to have to pick the right GM or right person to pick his players. I don't think Ron Rivera now is going to be that guy, to my personal opinion. Now, they may have a great season, but I don't think he's going to end up being the guy who's picking players. And I'm not sure if Martin Beguer or Marty or Bernie will be or not.

But, you know, Josh Harris, which all of a sudden done, he's a guy that designates, and he's going to have to prove that he can designate here and pick the right football people. That's the biggest thing. That's what Jack Kent Cook did a tremendous job. of doing, right? And that's, but Jack and Cook was also talked out of a lot of weird things, like hiring, re-hiring George Allen and all these other things. So, you know, I don't know.

I just think that I know they're sharp guys, you know, Harvard business, the whole thing, Harvard School, Harvard and the backgrounds, and these are really sharp guys. And I hope they can pick the right football people. So where do you come down on the name issue, which is very important, as you know to the fan base. I don't get all these people who are resisting the name change again. Why not?

You've got to change the name. Commanders is Dan Snyder's pick. Jason, right, whatever you want to say, but Dan Snyder's watch. I want it out. I want it out yesterday. And to me, it's number one.

I don't know why. I'm probably the only person or, I mean, obviously, the football team here, prove the football team win a championship, but I want the name change. And, you know, I don't, I, Wasn't a big fan of first of Red Wolf, but to me, it is the best option. I don't know if they can make it happen with the trademark. That's not my cup of tea.

I don't know well about that, but, you know, hail to the Red Wolf. How to the Red Wolf. You sing a song with H-O-W-L, how to the Redskins. You have a quarterback named Sam Hal. I don't know. I just think it could be really cool seen. Red Wolves would be my number one, but I threw out arrows, you know, call them the Washington arrows and get the old spear helmet, arrow helmet, make that comeback.

come back. I don't know. I just, I want the name to change. And it's got, and no one's going to change the colors here. I don't want to hear all this garbage I see on Twitter about changing the cup. No. Burgundy and gold forever, forever, forever, forever. And that's the franchise. And I know there's these kids who've been around,

the only fans for 20 years, whatever, they have a different perspective. But come on now. These are our colors. And this is the team, and this is the team that won Super Bowls in Championships and made my city great. And I'm proud of because when the senators left, there was nothing but the Redskins and that kept our city together

because it was a big deal when I lost Frank Howard and all those guys. You know, that was a big for me. I was a young kid, but the Redskins own that town and they can own it again. And I want the name change. I mean, I do too. And I

talked about it at the open of the show. I just don't I don't want to be lectured by people about where should rank on your priority list. Look, winning is If I own the team winning and building a winner and hiring a really good football person, obviously that's number one. But everybody can think about and talk about and list priorities, both present and future, things that are important. And this is important to me.

And it's an emotional thing. And I actually suggested on Friday's podcast briefly, I don't think that the old name's ever coming back. I mean, I think it's, you know, 99% you know. But I think they're with magic in the organization, you know, they could do what the Snyder franchise should have been doing, which was going around to Native American reservations and doing what, you know, Florida State's done

and some of the other places have done. It's not coming back, but that would be the ultimate for me. However, with that said, I just wanted to go back to Washington, and I want the old uniforms, and I don't even need a nickname. Just give me Washington and let that be the brand. I'm with you. I'm with you 100% on this. Magic, I know him pretty well, and he loves football. I mean, this guy loves football.

You go back, you go look at some people. Go Google it. He's on the sidelines of every Raiders game. every, you know, he was, he, he made it a rule. We can't have practice to, you know, at a certain time because I got to watch football on Sunday. This is a huge football thing. So he's into this. Yeah.

You saw his emotion. Yeah. And he is the perfect person to go out in this community and heal wounds. And with the politicians, I'm sure you guys discuss this. I mean, he's going to be the guy to help maybe get the stadium where you need to get it. So, yes, I think he could do whatever he sets his mind to this. He's just a great guy and genuine and the real deal. And I don't know what happens with the name.

I mean, look, I don't think Redskins is at sale. I think that ship's sale. I think so, too. Yeah, but, yep. But I always said they should have called the skins. You know, get around it somehow. If Snyder five years ago had changed the name of skins, people would have plotted them, right? Yeah.

But not at this point. There's got to be a name that works. I still think there's got to be a name. I want a red in it. And I know there's people out there who think I'm nuts, but I want something, it's going to be red tails, red wolves, red hogs. I don't know.

I want that. I do. But that's just me because I'm an old school guy and that's what I want. All right. Last one, and that is just about the team. So do you have an opinion one way or the other on Sam Hal? I look at it like this. Do you remember when, do you remember when,

Heath Schuler and Gus Farrott came out training camp their rookie years. Yeah. And it was evident from the first frigging path that Gus was so much better than Heath, right? Yeah. I mean, you could, he just flashed, and there's something about Sam, too, that flashed. This isn't Colt Brennan or some of these guys who came in training camp and Babe Laufenberg, who were training camp here. I think there's something to him, and I think there's something that happened his senior year that let's take into account

that something was a myth. We talked about it. Everybody's talked about, you know, he lost players, but he's flashed enough that I think he's got a chance. I mean,

look, Trent Green was a good NFL player. People who aren't always don't have to always be picked in the first two rounds, whatever it is. He's got a shot. I'm optimistic.

I liked what I saw. He could have hit the bed in that game, okay, and that Cowboys game, and he didn't. So, you know,

I think there's some reason for optimism. and I think he's going to be fine. I think you hear the players praise him, and that says a lot. There's guys, he has that mentality, the locker room likes them, and that's a big part of it. You know, that's the same thing that Hankeke had, but that Wenz didn't, right? So I think I'm optimistic. Can you, can you?

Can you? Can you imagine, by the way, Norve, you know, picking Heath Shuler, right, over Trent Dilfer, that was the draft, right? and realizing essentially from day one that the guy they picked in the seventh round from Tulsa is much better than the guy that you spent the third overall pick on. By the way, here's a real quick, because you'll get it. Do you remember who started Norve's first few games as the coach in 94?

Well, it was freeze? Yeah, exactly. As I was thinking about Heath and Gus that year, It was John Freeze who started that season in 94, and they were pretty competitive. He was the quarterback when they finally won a game. He was the quarterback. Was it Indie when they finally won a game? I think that Brian Mitchell had like a punt return for a touchdown in like the second or third game of the year against the Saints and they won that game.

Maybe that's it, yeah. I think so. But Norb didn't start out like a ball of fire either. No, no, no, no. But, you know, Norv could, Norv knew quarterbacks. could coach quarterbacks and could coach offense. And it's just, it's amazing. I remember Brian telling stories way back when.

Like, Norv would literally say to Brian, because Brian knew the whole playbook. He knew every call. And Brian would at times have to make the calls in the huddle for Heath Shuler. It was, what a disaster that ended up being. But, um, anyway of those. I know. We talked about earlier about being about, you know, the whole thing with Snyder.

I mean, Marvin Lewis was running practice with Spurrayo's coach. I mean, go on and on and on. Well, I mean, not to mention that, you know, the day, like it was drizzling a little bit, and Spurrier goes, we're going to cancel practice. Yeah, we're going to go inside and have some meetings. And Marvin Lewis said, no, we're not, coach. We're staying out here. We're practicing.

Oh, all right. That's what we do here in NFL. in the rain. You think Joe Gibbs would have had a bubble when he was started state practice? No. Why do you think the Redskins did so well in the rain and all that? Right, exactly.

This was so much fun. I'm glad you're doing well. I'm definitely going to check out Stand on Showtime, which you wrote and produced. It's a documentary on Mahmoud Abdul Raouf, who played in the NBA for many years. It was Chris Jackson at LSU. and always, he was always a very interesting and kind of fascinating figure in sports.

So I'm going to check that out next chance I have. I hope you're doing well and I really appreciate you doing this. I enjoy it, Ken. I love your show, man. Keep it up, man. That was fun with Tom. He's such a big fan of the team and covered the team for the post for those years. How about that story about the 89 team turning on Joe a little bit? bit, having a players-only meeting where somebody basically said F. Joe at this point. Anyway, good to catch up with him. Up next, Neil in Rockville, we'll jump on with us. We'll talk about the Mary Joe White investigation. I promised I'd have a reaction.

I'll have Neil kind of recap the whole thing. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's finish up the show with our good friend Neil in Rockville. I promised on Friday that I would get into this Mary Joe White report, which was released on Friday, along with a $60 million fine of Dan Snyder. And acknowledgement that some of the allegations made by Tiffany Johnston and by Jason Friedman were, as Mary Joie White wrote in her report, sustained. or I guess proven to be true or certainly in Mary Jo White's opinion were true. Before we get to Neal, I want everybody to know that this segment of the show is brought to you by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.orgie.com. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. They'll take good care of you.

You'll be eligible for a $1,000 deposit bonus. First deposit bonus heading into football season. season. You could get up to an additional $1,000 to bet with. Go to mybooky.com, mybooky.orgie.orgie. Use my promo code. Kevin D.C., all of the NFL prop bets are up. All of the week one lines are up, just so you know. The sale being finalized didn't do anything to the week one football point spread between Washington and Arizona. Washington at MyBooky is still a five and a half point favorite over the Cardinals and the total. is at 39 and a half the lowest total on the board. MyBooky.ag, mybooky.com, promo code, Kevin D.C.

So, Neil, I read through, you know, the summary of the report. I did not read through all of the detail, but you did. So explain to everybody what Mary Jo White concluded. Well, I think first we have to make sort of a clarification. There's nothing in this report that says this is the Mary Joe White determinations. It was the report is actually under the name of the law firm that she works for, and actually as you read throughout the report, it actually refers to Mary Joe White in the third person, and there's a lot of wees in it.

Like, we reviewed documents. We investigated. We concluded. So there's actually no name specifically attached to this report. Why not? Well, that's a good question. Because, well, Mary Joe White was hired to conduct the investigation, but it was Mary Joe White and her firm was hired.

And so it's not, you know, it's not delineated. And I think that's an important sort of factor when looking at the entire report because we really don't know who is making the conclusions, which are made in the report. It could be Mary Jo White. It could be a different partner. It could be a group of individuals. So just looking at this report, we actually don't have a clarification of, who's ultimately making these decisions and conclusions.

Okay, well, let me just ask you, why is that important? I mean, this is the Mary Joe White investigation, whether it's Mary Joe White and a bunch of the people that work at her law firm that she employed to help her with this investigation. This is the report of findings of the investigation regarding Daniel Snyder and the Washington commanders. this is the report that, you know, deba voice in Plimpton, LLP, I'm assuming that's the law firm that Mary Joe White works for. Why are you making, I'm not questioning you or, you know, in an accusatory way.

I'm just wondering why it would be significant that it's Mary Joe White and her fellow lawyers from her firm versus just Mary Joe White. Well, you know, because when I look at, when I would look at something in order to, you know, assess my review of a document or report, one of the things that I would initially look at is who are, who's making the conclusions, who are, who's making the determinations, which are being, you know, stated sort of as fact in the report. It's just something that I would look at where you can, you know, look at someone in particular who's making judgment calls. So if you don't know who's making the judgment calls, there's, I wouldn't say necessarily an issue of credibility, but when looking at, you know, when trying to base things on the report, you know, it would be nice to have known who is making the ultimate conclusions that are brought up in the report. Also, we have to remember who is this report for? So obviously this report was going to be released. It's more of a public document.

It's not the investigation. It's a report of the investigation. So obviously this was crafted in a way, you know, not only just to notify the NFL, but it's not really crafted in a way to notify the NFL. it's more of a public document than actually a report to the NFL of their findings and investigations because also throughout the document there are really only two individuals named. One is Friedman and one is Tiffany Johnson, a few others, but no witnesses are actually sourced by name. And it does state in there that, you know, some people wanted anonymity.

Right. But probably some people didn't. So there's, you know, I'm not. challenging the veracity of the findings, but you just have a hard time, you know, looking at it objectively if you don't know who's making the decisions that ultimately are made. All right. Well, let's... Good and bad, because there's actually, when you read it, there's not as much, there's not as much bad as the clickbait would have told you, or as Florio would have, you know, stated

in his tweets with regard to possible, you know, criminal, you know, prosecution of Dan and others. All right. Well, I didn't read Florio's tweets. So let's start with this. This is the document we have. This is all we're probably ever going to get. And these are the findings of the allegations made by Tiffany Johnston

and the allegations made by Jason Friedman. So let's start with the allegations made by Tiffany Johnston. first for everybody's, you know, memory, state what they were and then tell us what this group of investigators, which included, we think, Mary Joe White, found. So I think we all understood that there was the investigation of the alleged incident that occurred at the dinner where Dan is alleged to have put his hand on Tiffany Johnson's leg. there is the second incident seemingly on the same evening where Dan, I guess, as alleged, forcibly tries to get her into his vehicle.

But then there's actually a third, which I don't think we realized was actually technically being investigated. Yeah, I'd never heard about this one. Right. It was the fact, I mean, we had heard about this in the past that Dan had seemingly, not specifically Tiffany Johnson, but seemingly wanted sort of like the outtakes of some of the calendar shoots to be provided to him so he and his friends could look at them that seemingly had more nudity and things like that. So with regard to the allegations with regard to the hand on the thigh, there was, they did find that her allegation was substantiated by her statements. and some other undisclosed witnesses that stated that she reported it, you know, relatively to them in the same time frame that it occurred.

I'll just note on the flip side, no one could actually give us any realistic date or time when it occurred, whether it's Tiffany Johnson or the witnesses, but they believe that there, you know, was at least substantiation that at dinner, evening that he put his hand on her thigh. In a similar way, though they couldn't even identify the alleged lawyer of his that said, Dan, you really shouldn't do that. They also believed Tiffany Johnson that he tried to get her into his vehicle. With regard to the photograph, they did not, they found that the photographs were asked by a a senior executive and viewed, but the evidence they said was insufficient to show Snyder was

involved with that incident. Right. So there's this section in the report, you know, in kind of the summary of the report, titled Findings of the Investigation. And as you just discussed, Tiffany Johnston's work dinner allegations, Ms. Johnston's allegation that Mr. Snyder, without Ms. Johnston's consent, put his hand on her thigh under a restaurant table at a work-related dinner is sustained. Ms. Johnston's allegation that Mr. Snyder pushed her towards the backseat of his car

in an effort to have her join him after the dinner is sustained. I just, this is just me. I'm not used to reading these reports. You are, although we've read more of them here in the last few years than ever before. Why the word sustained? What is that? Is there a stronger word proven? What does sustained mean?

Why is that word used? So, you know, the word sustained is actually, I do a significant amount of employment law. And so usually in employment law or in with EEOC investigations and the like, there's an issue of whether an allegation is sustained, substantiated, unsubstantiated, or ruled out. It's not your typical guilty, not guilty. It's not a legal term of more likely than not, or by clear and convincing evidence. It's not an evidentiary standard. It's basically stating that her allegations are sustained, basically saying,

we believe her allegations, we believe there's evidence to support her allegations. It's not a very forceful word, but it's one that's often used more in the employment law realm. Well, would there have been a more substantial word? Like you had another, what were the possible words that could be used there? Well, there's there's substantiated, there's unsubstantiated. So it substantiated a more forceful term than sustained? I would believe so. Okay. I don't want to get hung up on this.

I just, in being inexperienced in reading these summations of workplace allegations, I didn't know if sustained, I think you described it, it meant that essentially they believed her, even if they weren't able to prove the allegations. allegations? Is that a better, is that a good way of describing what sustained means there or not? Well, proof is it, they didn't go by a legal standard of proof like beyond a reasonable doubt or clear convincing evidence or even more reasonable than not. Basically, and they went through it a little bit more in the body of the report, they believed her. And they believe that there were

some others whose testimony supported what she said. She was vivid about it. And so it's basically just saying, here's your allegation. The allegation was made, and we believe it is sustained or supported. And it sounds to me like the reason that they believed it is that there were four witnesses who said at the time that this allegedly happened back in 2008, She shared with those four people what had happened to her in, you know, within a reasonable amount of time after it had happened. And they all said, no, no, we remember that she told us about this.

And because it was timely and there were four of them, this is what really, you know, won the day with the investigators, is that they found other people that said she came to them and said, this is what happened to me when I was out with him at dinner. Yes. I mean, oftentimes in cases like this, particularly, you know, cases where there's not going to be physical evidence of any way, shape, or form, if there is what's called a prompt reporting of an incident, that oftentimes, you know, supports the allegation of the person who is alleging abuse or, you know, something at the time it occurred. So that other allegation related to Tiffany Johnston that I didn't know was being investigated, and you didn't know was being investigated, even though we've heard about calendar shoots and photos and private photos and outtakes, she came to the conclusion that the investigation also sustains the allegation that a former senior executive of the club improperly took and viewed an unedited calendar photograph of Ms. Johnston. But as you said, Neil, the editor.

Evidence was insufficient to show that Mr. Snyder was involved in this incident. All right. Let's move to the Jason Friedman allegations, which were summing it up. They were keeping money, deposit money from season ticket holders, and they weren't reporting and then paying back to the league revenues that should have been shared with them. Yeah. So the whole revenue show. allegations, it gets pretty much in the weeds on a lot of things. And there are some generalizations,

but even their ultimate conclusions, well, specifically in regarding some of the accounts, they're not, they didn't make hard and fast statements as this occurred or this didn't occur. This is the amount which was inappropriately withheld. They used. some in some way some relatively nebulous terms. Overall, they said, you know, according to how they read the rules, that there were some inappropriate keepings, inappropriate tagging of revenues for some things. It should have been other things, transfers that went along the way that were inappropriate over a significant period of time. Of importance, however, is, and I know this is something that most people were really, you know, hoping it might be otherwise,

there really wasn't a direct tie of Dan Snyder to these activities. There was basically Dan wanted, you know, let's make the most money we can, let's keep the most money we can, you know, let's do what we can do. But there's never sort of a link, between Dan stating, you know, let's do this, you know, unethical, inappropriate thing, so I get to keep more money. Right. Because ultimately, it says the investigation did not find Mr. Snyder was aware of or participated in the failure to share revenues from security deposits to the extent required by the NFL policies.

And even in some of the others, there was not any significant substantial finding that Dan personally directed any of this stuff to occur. Right, but they sustain all of Friedman's allegations with respect to the club doing this. And Snyder was the owner of the club, even if the investigation didn't find that he was aware of or participated in the failure to share revenues from security deposits to the extent required by NFL policies. Correct. I mean, they did. specifically state, though, that on the evidence available, the investigation neither found nor ruled out that Mr. Snyder directed or personally participated in the improper shielding of revenues from sharing to the extent required by NFL policies.

Basically, they were just saying, we don't know if Dan, you know, personally did it. But they can't rule it in. But they do know that the club did essentially perform these maneuvers. that Jason Friedman had alleged. They sustained Jason Friedman's allegations. To some of the stuff, but I think in a lot of ways, what in some ways best supports this report is the information that we found out, you know,

also at the same time that Dan was paying, you know, as you sort of, as you and I were talking, he paid a little bit of the VIG on that sale for $60 million is staying back with the NFL and, you know, some fines and some inappropriate, you know, dealings, and they'll just divvy that up as they seem, you know, make it appropriate. I want to get to that in a moment, but there was another big piece that we learned, by the way, before the report came out in a post story from maybe a week ago or a week and a half ago,

and that is that Snyder did get around to, you know, giving these investigators an hour of his time on, you know, end of June, I think it was June 29th of, you know, of last month. And the bottom line is the failure of Snyder and the organization to cooperate fully was a big part of why they couldn't, especially as it related to the Friedman allegations, nail down the numbers. They even speak to the fact that they're not even sure they've got, they got the numbers right in terms of what was withheld from the league and season ticket holders. There is an ongoing theme throughout the entire report that you get the feeling that they were,

I would use the term, MIFT, that Dan and the team did not fully cooperate with their investigation. And the tone and tenor of the report sort of, you know, showed that out. Beyond that, Neal, they make it a point to say that when this. investigation started, the team promised essentially, and I'm probably not using the right word, but they promised transparency. They promised to be cooperative, and they were the opposite of that. Yes. And that's what really upset them, is that publicly they were on record saying how cooperative they would be, but they were anything but. And one of the, you know, in the findings of the investigation, the last section of that is failure to cooperate. Both Mr. Snyder and the club

failed to cooperate, which extended the investigation and contributed to an inability to determine, one, the total amount of improperly shielded NFL revenues, and two, the extent of Mr. Snyder's knowledge and participation in the club's improper revenue shielding practices. By the way, just with respect to the Tiffany Johnston allegations, Snyder denied everything in the hour-long interview that he did with the investigators, and he denied knowing anything about any of the Jason Friedman allegations as well. So I think we, I think you've done a good job of summing up kind of what's in the report. I don't think I'm missing anything, right? I want to get to the, to the penalty here.

Yeah, no. I mean, that basically sums up the report. Okay, so Snyder's going to pay the NFL $60 million as part of the closing of the sale of the franchise. So that means that on Friday, when it closed, you know, the $5.85 billion that got wired, 60 million of it got taken out, and given to the league for the results of the Mary Joe White law firm investigation into Snyder. So your reaction to that? I mean, my reaction is that, and I think this might have been those final bit of sort of holdup

that we heard about like a week or two ago about indemnification, who, you know, some ongoing issues with the league. I mean, ultimately, Dan had to agree to that $60 million. in order for this whole thing to close, otherwise, you know, the other owners might have just said, you know what, we're not going to let him get his money until we make sure that we get our money that he might have been cheating with us. So ultimately, I'm sure they just came to the, you know, the $60 million. I think it's just about 1% of the final sale price.

And so, you know, it allows everybody to sort of put this. It basically allows the whole report to basically be over and done with. They're not going to go back and try and figure out, well, did this seat, you know, sale, should that have gone to the league and this stuff? The league is going to have their $60 million. They'll divide it up however they think it's appropriate. And that allows them to basically, and Dan, I think, to move on from this entire 25 years together. The only thing I thought about in terms of what could still happen, and I acknowledge it's a complete reach,

is that keeping and holding back that revenue actually was a competitive advantage for them over the rest of the league if the rest of the league wasn't doing the same thing. Because even though it doesn't necessarily relate to salary cap and available salary cap space, It does relate to how much they have in dry powder to pay for players and to sign players to contracts. And I just wonder whether or not any of the other – look, the other 31 owners, I would assume, agreed to this, the $60 million fine is the final result. but if we're talking about a $60 million worth of value to the franchise that they're going to pay back, you could argue they had a competitive advantage. Didn't use it very well, obviously, but they had a competitive advantage. And when we've seen draft choices docked from teams, it's been for football competitive advantage.

right? Is that a reach or not? As you sort of hinted that, I don't think anyone's made an allegation against us as having some form of competitive advantage as it is on the field. I mean, I think that amount, if you divide that $60 million up over a period of time, even if it's just over 10 years, but more like 15 or 20 years, it's in some ways the minimum in the overall numbers it's basically money

that probably just extra money that went into Dan's pocket it's sort of like that whole issue that was raised like Dan was writing off his airplane

because he had the Redskins logo on it so he was you know taking a deduction because he was using it for advertising or marketing I don't think it had

you know I don't think it was in light of the contracts that they have with the networks and stuff, that was just additional money that probably went into Dan's pocket that ultimately came out of Dan's pocket, you know, when they paid it off out of the proceeds of the sale. Two more.

Number one is, aren't you a little bit surprised by this? I mean, we've had a lot of conversations about this over the last 17 months. That's how long it's lasted. And I don't, I mean, I can only speak for myself. and recall some of our conversations. I didn't see, you always and Howard always coached all of us up to, look, it's very possible that Mary Jo White comes to the conclusion that she agrees with the allegations. They're just going to be very difficult to prove, especially the Tiffany Johnson thing,

but it doesn't mean that she won't come to the conclusion that she agrees or believes, as you described, these allegations. but I know that $60 million really is like a very, you know, by the way, not even a Vig. I mean, you know, it's it's 1%, not 10%, but aren't you a little bit surprised by kind of this condemnation of Snyder's behaviors that related, well, the team's behaviors it related to these allegations in a $60 million fine, the largest in NFL history? Um, in some ways, yes. I mean, I didn't think we'd get this full of a report. What, the one thing that I think is missing, which I thought was in some ways going to be addressed that I think we all thought might have been addressed was her looking back to the first investigation. And also, because we had heard some rumblings about, well, Mary Joe White got access to the, you know, the woman on the plane. I mean, I thought there was also the potential that this was going to be a look back in some ways.

Now, that very well might have been part of her review, but the only person that would have heard was Roger Goodell, as we talked about in the past, because he's the one that ultimately gave the punishment, the fine and the, quote, stepping back. Right. So, you know, I think this is more than I thought that we would get. It is basically an executive summary. There are no names. There's some generalized facts. But ultimately, it did come down, at least with the Tiffany Johnson. It came down to that they believed her.

They didn't determine that there was any reason, though they didn't say it for her to lie necessarily. And she believed it. and Dan, you know, Dan has been steadfast in his denial. So as to that, with regard to the Jason Freeman stuff, they did get into the specifics, but I think they would

say because we didn't get full participation and cooperation from the team, they couldn't really clamp down on specifics. They made some general judgments on how that there were transfers of different types of

funds, but ultimately at least in the report, they didn't come to you know, any super steadfast conclusions that this was inappropriate, this was appropriate. They even talked about the fact that as they understood the rules

which made it sound like that you know, it could be left to, as, you know, a lot of people talk about creative accounting on either side. But I think ultimately that's what the $60 million at the end sort of just, okay, we'll just, we'll take $60 million. This will be over whether you, you know, we're not going to get into the, we're not going to start nitpicking every transfer and the like. It also might have been, you know, do other teams do, I mean, as we talked about before, there is sort of at the end of every year, sort of like everyone sort of ponies up where they admittedly, you know, made inappropriate decisions about what should be sent in, what shouldn't be. So that was, you know, we've known that there have been in the past times when things have been switched. There was

one large payment, though, that seemingly was made after Gershman left. And so I think it was a $6 million dollar payment that was ultimately forwarded over at some point in time. So, and that's the only other name that really appears in the court. Yeah, Gersh, Mitch's name is throughout. So my last question is this. Is there any future kind of liability? We know there's a defamation case by Friedman against Snyder. But is that it?

Is that the only thing he's going to have to deal with? related to this moving forward or not? Well, the defamation case is against the team, and it's against, I think, against one of their lawyers. Right. So the question is, is I don't know what the sales contract looks like, because the sales contract is going to talk about, you know, liabilities of the team at the time of the purchase. I mean, the current owners might be on the hook for the issues having to do with the team,

depending on how it's spelled out in the agreement. You know, since it's not Dan personally, it's the team. When you purchase a corporation oftentimes, you take on the assets and the liabilities of the corporation. So it might be the team that's ultimately going to have to resolve that matter with Friedman, as well as the person, the individual who's also named in the lawsuit. All right. So not Dan. At Neil N. Rockville, as in Neil in Rockville, our legal contributor many times over.

The one that's in the country and not in Santero pay right now. Right. He's in Santerpay right now. Wearing a commander's t-shirt on the beach. He sent me a picture of that. Great job. Appreciate it. You got it. All right, that is it.

Back tomorrow, Tommy again, doing Wednesday and Friday this week.