The Kevin Sheehan Show - Stanford Steve On Daniels or Maye

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Kevin is joined by ESPN's Stanford Steve Coughlin to start the show. The guys spent time discussing the quarterbacks in the NFL Draft with Steve sharing his preference between Jayden Daniels and Drake Maye. They talked College Football's 5x7 playoff format as well. Then it was all-time Maryland great John Lucas jumping on to share stories and memories of Lefty Driesell.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Wind Donation is the presenting sponsor of this show. Right now, Windonation is offering 50% off all windows and window styles with no money down, no payments, and no interest for two full years. Call them at 86690 Nation.

Head towindonation.com. Mention my name. You'll get a free in-home. estimate. We're going to get to it pretty quickly here in this opening segment. Stanford Steve is going to jump on with us and talk Drake May and Jaden Daniels primarily. That would be Stanford Steve Coughlin of the ESPN Scott Van Pelt Show. Stanford Steve is a college football guy. I would consider him to be a college football expert. So we will get into the two quarterbacks that I think will be available at number two for Washington, assuming that Chicago

trades Justin Fields and selects Caleb Williams. We'll get his thoughts on Caleb Williams as well and some of the other quarterbacks. Plus, Stanford Steve knows Cliff Kingsbury pretty well, so he'll weigh in on that. And I'll probably ask him about the new college football playoff format, which was voted on yesterday. And then after Stanford Steve, this is going to be a pleasure for me, as much as any guests that I've had on in some time. John Lucas is going to be on this show. John Lucas was a four-year player at Maryland in the 1970s for Lefty-Druzell. He is one of the greatest players to ever play at Maryland, one of the greatest players to ever play in the ACC. He's one of the greatest tennis players to ever play in the ACC. NBA career, NBA head coaching career, NBA front office executive career,

Lucas has had an incredible life, and he is going to jump on with me to share his thoughts and memories of playing for Lefty Dresel and of his lifelong friendship with his college coach. I'm looking forward to that. It's been a long time since we've had John Lucas on the show. I don't think he's ever been on the podcast. I don't think he has. He was on the radio show years ago.

Tommy and I were doing a show at Redskins. Park from our Redskins Park studio. And it was during a commercial break that I walked outside just to get some fresh air. And in the parking lot and walking towards the front door were John Lucas and Jamarcus Russell. You know, John Lucas had an addiction issue throughout his playing career and then did such incredible work and continues, I believe, to this very day doing incredible work with his rehab Center and he's helped so many athletes with addiction issues over the years. And Jamarcus Russell was somebody he was helping at the time and he was bringing him to visit

the skins. That was, I think, 2011. It would have been before RG3. So it was either 2010 or 2011, I'm guessing. And when I saw him, I noticed Jamarcus Russell, but I really noticed John Lucas. and I said, hey, if you get a minute when you're done here, do you have, would you sit down with us and let us, you know, interview you and have a conversation with you? And he did. And it was great.

And I think that's the last time that I had Lucas on the show. So I'm very much looking forward to talking to John Lucas. That will be in the final segment of the show. A couple of things real quickly before we start with Stanford, Steve. Number one is this. Alex Ovechkin's on fire. I love that. I'm a big Alexo-Ovechkin fan.

I'm not a big Caps fan. Most of you know that. I'm not a big hockey fan. I like playoff hockey. But man, eight goals now in eight games after scoring just eight goals in the first 43 games. And the caps are still a ways away from, you know, the playoff, you know, eight that'll make it out of the Eastern Conference.

I think there's six points now out of the wild card race, but there's still 28 games left. I guarantee you the NHL would love. to see Alex Ovechkin in the postseason. They were not in it last year. And he is ramping it up from a scoring standpoint. That's for sure. That's actually really nice to see. I've been a fan of his, even if I'm not a big fan of the team necessarily. The other story that I wanted to mention real quickly was this story that came out late last night early this morning about Virginia labor unions coming out against the caps and wizards moving to Potomac Yard. I'll read from the Post story.

A group of labor unions said on Tuesday they oppose a proposal to move the capitals and wizards from D.C. to Alexandria, Virginia, dealing another blow to a plan that is already facing increasingly tall hurdles among legislators in Richmond. There's a quote in here from the president of the AFL-CIO. Northern Virginia Arm, Virginia Diamond is the person's name. Quote, taxpayers should not make a massive investment in a project that is only going to create more low-wage jobs for local workers. The Post goes on to say that the union's stance is likely to influence state and local lawmakers

who have said that labor support is essential for the $2 billion project. It certainly seems like much of the news with the exception of kind of the house in Virginia passing the proposal, but there is a lot pushing against this deal. If you missed the show on Monday where I had Sam Fortier on the show walking through the story that the post had written over the weekend about how Ted Leonis and Mayor Bowser and monumental in the city and then Virginia, basically the blow by blow of how it all led up to Ted, you know, sitting down at a press conference with Governor Yonkin and announcing that they were going to get this $2 billion project to move the teams to Northern Virginia to Potomac Yard. I thought it was a really well done story and really spelled out what really happened rather than speculating on it. But there's a lot of hurdles here for Ted to clear. And it's looking more and more like those hurdles may be too high to clear.

And what would be really interesting is if it falls apart in northern Virginia and he's got to come back to D.C., all of a sudden you would think the district would have the leverage in the negotiation. Now, my suggestion would be that the district consider it to be a real lucky break that it fell through in Virginia and then pick up where they left off in December, which was making available $500 million for the $800 million project. If they took that opportunity to try to haggle the deal down and into better terms for the city, when in many ways they, I think, were more responsible for Ted intending to take his teams to Northern Virginia. They could never get their act together. They came to that meeting on September 1st with a proposal,

an official proposal that was far different from the one that had been discussed and Ted was amenable, as the Post story said, to moving forward with. if it falls apart and falls through in Virginia, D.C. should just pick up where they left off in December and give Ted the $500 million that they came up with under favorable and fair terms for both parties to keep the teams in D.C. And it does seem like the chances are increasing

that the Virginia option may not be an option that actually happens. I wanted to mention real quickly before we get to Stanford, Steve, because it's kind of a good segue into the conversation about quarterbacks. Two things. One, I had Rob Likens. He was the offensive coordinator and quarterback coach at Arizona State when Jaden Daniels played at Arizona State in 2019 on the radio show today. He was really good in talking about Jaden Daniels as a young quarterback.

Jaden Daniels, the person. that's available at the team 980 if you want to listen to that. And then I got this tweet from Gene who said, Kevin, are we really going to take a quarterback as skinny as Jaden Daniels? He's pencil thin, has a build like RG3, and seems like he's one NFL hit away from the IR list. Doesn't make sense. We did this before.

Heisman winner, insane athlete, number two overall. come on, we can do better than this. Thank you, Gene. You can follow me on Twitter at Kevin Sheen, D.C. Also, rate us and review us on Apple and Spotify if you get a chance. So let me just mention this. I don't see any comp with RG3 other than Heisman winner, insane athlete, number two overall.

RG3 had a breakable build. He was a straight-line track athlete. He had no peripheral vision. He couldn't slide. He couldn't avoid big hits. And he just had a more breakable frame. By the way, he had been injured seriously at Baylor. He had torn in ACL when he was at Baylor.

Jaden Daniels is skinny. I agree with Eugene. His frame doesn't look like the typical NFL quarterback frame, especially a quarterback that's going to be as mobile and run as much as Jaden Daniels has. I have one concern more than any other about Jaden Daniels. It's that very thin frame. They're going to have to build it up a little bit when he gets into the NFL. However, he's got great vision, is able to avoid hits, gets out of bounds with his speed before he gets hit.

A lot of you have sent me these compilation videos of him taking these massive hits. Just as an FYI, most of those are from the 2022 season, not the 2020. 23 season. If you've watched his tape, you know how he can avoid a lot of big shots, how he does that little thing where he's running down the sidelines and then just hops out of bounds, flips the ball to the ref, avoids any contact. I would be more fearful of the hits he'll take in the pocket. I think those are the hits, you know, with a smaller frame that may be more problematic for him. But anyway, that is a perfect segue into a conversation about. about quarterbacks in the draft.

Jumping on with us right now to talk some college football and NFL draft is Stanford Steve Coughlin from the Scott Van Pelt Show. Our good friend Stanford, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, on X on Twitter. And of course, you can watch him with Scott every night on Sports Center. So I want to just start with what I think my audience wants to hear from you the most. that is quarterbacks, draft, who do you like, and then I'll give you a couple of hypotheticals for Washington at two. But rank them right now in terms of, you know, on your board, who do you have one through six? Oh, well, Caleb, Drake, Jaden to start, I'm still diving back into McCarthy

and Bo Nix. Right now, I would have McCarthy ahead of Nix, and then who am I missing? Panics. Panics, Jr. Yes. Panics ahead of Nix. All right.

Well, if you have it, I don't, the top three is what everybody's focused on. Do you think that they're, like most people do, there's a big separation after the top three with whomever's next? It depends on the fit, Kevin. It really does. You know, when you start going up,

and down this draft, what really stands out to me is the depth of offensive line play. Now, I'm not in the tier of saying these left tackles are as high as guys in the past. But when you start combining, you know, combining, you know, your plan and what you go about, I do think as a lot of times you look at a situation where, where, we're, we're, we're, a quarterback's going to fall, but he's going to the better team because it's a draft order, right? The playoffs. I thought it was really interesting last year that the Lions knew they had their guy, but still had plenty of proven. They took Hendon Hooker, who I thought was a valued commodity. Now, as you start to see, you know, the Mitch Tribiskeys and the guys that haven't had a lot of college experience,

those gambles were taken on those guys at the top of draft, and those guys are, are going by the wayside. And now there's this, this gauge of, we want guys that have played plenty of snaps. And I've always been in favor of that. I don't care, you know, the windows in this league are so short. I want a guy with experiences and played as much ball. So, you know, you're not going to find more experience than Pennix and Knicks.

But those three guys at the top that I, you know, coming in and basically starting from day one, I think they have, they have plenty of. have experienced. I mean, Daniel's, Daniels longevity in college is incredible. I mean, he beat Justin Herbert when they were, you know, in the amendment making for a playoff. So you fast forward to now and you look at what he did and Caleb also and Bo and Pennix and going about the transfer process and finding that situation and making the most of

it. And that's what's really cool about this is there's plenty of investment from all six of these guys. And that's what's fascinating moving forward, knowing what kind of hot commodities they are. It's interesting because, you know, the NBA draft, there's a different mindset, right? Oh, you don't want to draft anybody that's 23 or 24 years old. It actually drives me nuts because all I want is a really good player. But, you know, the 19-year-old you are projecting in a major way, And what you're saying, and we've seen that.

Look, Trey Lance may be, it's not just the level of college football he played at. It's the fact that he played very little college football at all. And so that's an interesting way to look at it. And all three, look, all six of these guys have played a hell of a lot of college football, in part because we've also had kind of the COVID year, et cetera. But, I mean, Daniels, yeah, I mean, Daniels five years, Nick's six. something like that. You know, obviously, Caleb has been a big time starter,

May is starter since, you know, Hal graduated, et cetera. So your order is Caleb, May, and Jaden Daniels. So let's go to a couple of hypotheticals. Well, let me start with this. How much separation is there between Caleb and May and then May and Daniels in your mind? Not much. Okay. Not much.

I think it's evenly the difference. difference is even amongst the three. You know, if you want for percentages on it, whatever you want to do. Here's why I prefer May for the commanders, if we want to go right there. When I watched him in person on tape, the process of what North Carolina football has been, there's a comfort level and a not trying to hide

anything that I really think is real. And what I mean by that is FC comes in this past year. Defending Heisman Trophy winner, all the expectations in the world. Everybody knows their defense is going to be great. But it took a while.

You know, we're trying to find ways to get in. Lincoln Riley shuts down interviews with players and doesn't allow access. And I'm like, you know, how to you do that when you have such a great player of that caliber to showcase your university and the position you're in. And that just caught me, you know, by saying, and it goes back to the fingernail paint. And there's just a lot there where now it's going to be all vetted out.

Like these teams are as proactive as they are. They've done their homework starting, you know, two years ago on these guys. So with Caleb, you know, none of them. team is going to be in in those personal meetings. How is he going to handle himself in that situation? That's what I want because, I mean, being a local guy, Kevin, I'm flying out every Friday or Thursday morning, and who do I see at the airport? It's all these high school parents that are going out to see their kids that are playing

in college. I ran in the numerous Gonzaga parents at the airports this season, and they're like just, oh, how about Caleb? They love Caleb, love them. And I just thought that was really cool, but we never. got to see that side of him. You know, you hear about his teammates. His teammates like him. So, like, that's a big plus. But on the other hand, with Drake May, it's just Mac Brown. Come on in. What do you need? Do you want to sit down with Drake May? Do you want to go do a feature with

them? I mean, I think Marty Smith went over to summer to go fishing with them. You know, it was just a cool aspect. Like, I don't have anything else to hide here. And this is what you're going to get. And when it goes to on the field, I look at one thing that separates May from Daniels is looking what he had to work with. Like all that nonsense, they had to go through it with Walker, the receiver. And Drake just shows up and says, all right, we got to play FCC teams start the year. I'm going to do whatever I got to do. Whereas I'm not trying to take anything away from Daniel.

But he's got three NFL receivers he's thrown to. He has an offensive line. And when you talk to the guys that do the Joe Moore Award, they were right there. They were top three. So when you talk about the situation, he was in, he was set up to succeed. North Carolina was based on their success on whatever Drake May could pull off. And to another essence, that's what USC was too. And when you talk about these three guys, the best thing about them that we've seen guys,

you know, you go back to your Mansell and you're Tyler Murray. But these guys are way more refined in improvising. And when I look at that, you talk to guys that coached college in NFL, they want the bigger guy. They're going to get hit. And you watch LSU. I mean, I was at the Bama game. They made it a point they were going to hit him as much as they could. And, you know, cheap shot, whatever it is, it gets called.

He doesn't finish that game. Those kind of things stick in my head. And like I said, I'm not taking anything away from it. We have the best season of a college football player. But when you stack all, I love what Drake May had to go through and what he brings to the table. and just in I'm not hiding anything. And I look at Caleb if he needs some work to do in the pocket. But Drake May, to me as a trustworthy pick,

I would totally be fine with commanders there. So you talked about the availability of Drake May and the unavailability of Caleb Williams during the offseason and, you know, leading up to it. But you didn't mention Daniels in terms of his availability and how easy and accessible he was. I mean, I'm not passing judgment on whether or not these are even significantly important things in the larger scheme of it, but I'm interested to know what the situation with Jaden Daniels was. All hands on death.

They were totally fine. They knew he was the catalyst for that team. Sorry, I didn't get to him. That's okay. Rambling on because I wanted to try and get it. But, no, I mean, as up front is, I think what he had to face to, Kevin, at Arizona. state is so long ago that I think people forget. I mean, you've got a coaching staff that's in turmoil.

You had some success in that first year. I mean, I go back to a Mark De Antonio team that's top. I think they're top 10. They go out to Arizona State early in the air. They lose to Jane Daniels. And Herm Edwards got that thing cranked up. And then you see what happens off the field. And that coaching staff goes by the wayside.

He's looking for a better opportunity. and, you know, Brian Kelly, out of the blue, you know, takes the LSU job, and what do we have here? We got one of the best offenses in the world. So I looked at Jaden as being a lot more ahead of the game than people give them credit for, you know, just knowing what it takes to succeed, you know, having, you know, his lumps at the beginning of the 22 season, and then fighting all the way back and getting his team that you see title. And look where that team started the season, you know, with the missed extra block decker pointing at Florida State and the dome.

That's a home game for LSU. That fan base is as quick as anybody to show how unhappy they are. And what is he do? He goes on and he beats Bama in Baton Rouge on a Saturday night. And they go to the SEC title game like that. That's some real stuff that when you're looking at these guys, you got to take into accountability. Yeah, you know, you mentioned just the bigger challenge that May had. You know, it's interesting is that all three of them, Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, and Drake May,

all were totally responsible for the team's success because all three defenses were so god-awful. You know, all three of them played on teams that were horrendous defensive teams. Now, maybe Carolina wasn't as bad this year as they were in previous years. They were not a good defense, though. And SC and LSU had two of the worst defenses in the country. So they were constantly – the games that were won were won by these players and the offensive side of the ball. Yeah, and I go back – I mean, if you go back, watch the Clemson-Carolina game this year,

Carolina gets some brutal calls down in the red zone. a fumble that was a touchdown, went through the end zone, it gave them the ball. But I just looked at the approach of Drake May and saying, we're not here to hang around in a game. He always had the mentality of what am I going to do to take the next step to succeed. I mean, there's cutups out there of him on fourth down

when he's just, I mean, first game in the year against South Carolina, just hanging in the pocket. No, he's responsible for the fourth linebacker week, and he takes the hit and throws a jump ball for a touchdown. the fourth down, he throws a ball left-handed. I love what he brings to the day. He doesn't put his guys at risk, but he does take his risk. And talk to that Carolina staff, they did have the conversation with him going back to the 22 season.

I mean, you go back to his first three games. He's hurtling guys, not getting out of bounds. I mean, he's got these little shoulder pads on. You don't want that guy taking extra risk. But I will say, I think Daniel's had it, and Caleb is as elusive as that. any of them, they still want to prove what they can get away with. And now that they, you know, it takes them a little bit. You take, there's so much practice time that's not allowed because of the rules now

that these guys want to see what they could do in a game situation. And is it taking a sack when you're not supposed to? Yes, of course. Happened multiple times to all of these guys. But I still love the wherewithal and the mindset of these guys, as I say, compared to guys that haven't played a lot of football. So let's get to Washington at two and go with the assumption so we can focus on May and Daniels. And you've already made the case for May, but I want to get into it in more detail, that Caleb Williams is gone,

that Chicago is going to move on from Justin Fields in the next week or two. That's kind of a reading of the T-Leave situation leaves a situation right now. And that, you know, they're not going to trade the pick. If they move on from Justin Fields, they're taking a course. quarterback at one, and let's just assume it's Caleb Williams. So here's Washington with Adam Peters. By the way, that just reminds me to ask you about Kingsbury here. I didn't have that on my list, but I'll add it. But they've got the choice of May and Daniels. Maybe the best way to ask you, because you said at the beginning is it depends on where they

land. You know Cliff Kingsbury. You know his offenses. You probably have a sense of what they're going to try to do here in Washington. So which of the two would be the best fit for Cliff Kingsbury? That's a great question. I don't think it matters, Kevin. I know they're going to have their choice and they might

be in a tougher predicament than the Bears because like, think about it now, right? Combine starts Monday. We already have this narrative of fields unfollowing, you know, on social media the Bears. So like there's already this distaste, right? Like,

that's, I mean, Scott gets mad at me all the time about, about, you know, what the narrative is. That's a narrative. Like, that's going to be the first thing brought up in meetings, and everybody talking at Indianapolis in the combine is, all right, Fields is done. Like, that's going to be the assumption that's made. So now with Washington, I think you've got to be even more certain, you know, if guys have a feeling in the building, they've got to be careful because you never know what can open up. I mean, the way and how tight everything is.

kept, you've got to figure that there's teams that are going to have a preference between May and Daniels. And does it matter? You know, do you get something dropping from two to three? I don't know the logistics of that. I know there's the charts out there and all that. But going back to Kingsbury, I think he is, you know, he gets lumped in, you know, I'm trying to think, you know, your Johnny Mansell, your little guy running around quarterback. Connor Murray. And then on the other hand, you have the Mahom deal. And, you know, they have the Mayfield Riff.

And when he left, he left Tech to go to Oklahoma. So I think he doesn't get enough credit for how good of a quarterback coach he is and a football mind he is. You know, he's got the swag. He's got the good looks. He's got all that stuff. And everybody loves to talk about that. But, like, you go back. And, you know, I watched the Hard Knocks last year when he was still in charge of the Cardinals.

Like, that was as a depressing in-season hard-knocks I've ever seen. But guys are just going by the way. I mean, seriously, like the team meetings, and there was, oh, he's got to be more fiery. These guys know, like the playoffs are out of rakes. You lost your quarterback. You don't know if your best, you know, you're face to your franchise. JJ Watts is going to be there or Buda Baker's out. Like, that is a brutal situation and brutal, you know, a hand of cards to be done.

dealt. And I don't judge him on that. I judge him on what I know and what I talk to him. You know, he's from, you know, the West Coast, you know, played for Leach. And then you got Holgerson under there. Like those guys are free spirit. And the best thing about them is how short-term their memory is. You know, they're not afraid to face a loss and they know what they got to do. They're the first guys in the tape room to figure out what the problem is. And they fix it. And a lot of times, you don't have the players to fix it. But as far as the plan goes, and what you want, I have the most, utmost confidence in Cliff Kingsbury, having a plan and adapting to what he had. I mean, you mentioned some of the name. He never had a good

offensive line. It feels like, and he's probably not going to have a great one in Washington in year one. But what do you do about that? Do you have multiple three-step drops? Do you have a guy that could roll out. You have receivers that can get open in the quick game. And how does that affect your run game and your protection plan? Those guys are as good as it gets when it comes to acclimating to what they have and still figuring out how to move the ball and keep your defense off the field, which I still think goes back to the most important thing in the NFL. And I believe that Cliff Cairings-Berry has that.

And I would think just because of the stature, I think May has more of the pro-bill. So you've answered the question about Cliff Kingsbury, and I know that you feel this way because we've talked about it, but you love the hire. Yes, absolutely love it. Like I said, as far as a plan, I don't, I just think when you look at what Rivera was up against and then you bring a name like the enemy in, I don't see that. And you see how hands-on Dan Quinn's always been in the defense. you see him up in the box for the Cowboys as the D.C. And it's vested as he is as a D.C. I think he made that higher knowing he has full confidence.

And Cliff Cairingsbury, who's been an NFL head coach, been a big time college head coach, saying, all right, when I need to put my own and put my book in for the defense, because, you know, that's the saying that comes around him that, you know, when he went to Dallas, they rebuilt the book of how they want to do things defensively. and that's going to take time, and you know the investment that it takes. But now, on the other side, while I'm doing that, I have a former head coach that knows what it takes to be successful in this league, and that's why I absolutely love it.

All right, so May and Daniels, back to them. On May, you've made the case as to why. Why wouldn't you do May? What concerns you about May, if anything? If the answer's nothing, it's nothing. Yes. No, it's not a lot. I do wonder about those risk-taking deals,

but like I said, all three of these top guys haven't. They've all made decisions where they shouldn't have, and it costs their teams. But again, I think that's the toughest thing. Your situation is going to change. You're not necessarily going to be asked to win a game the first four weeks in the NFL. You know, you're going to have different ways to go about things.

And, you know, they're going to try and put more on your plate. So I just think the idea of going in the next play is the biggest eye opener for these three guys. They've all shown how much they can extend plays, keep drives alive, and I just wonder at this level how much you still can get away with that. And that's the one thing I think across the board with those top three guys. And that's it. The ability to figure out I don't have to be elusive and I could throw the ball away and lift it the next down, I don't have to get the first down here. I could go out of bounds and lift to the next plate. Those are the things that because it happens that much faster at this level.

And they're all three, they're all three in terms of their strengths, off-schedual creativity in trying to buy time. They're great at it. And but yeah, I mean, Caleb probably is in his own tier with accuracy on the run. But Drake May is not going to, like I'm dying to see what May and Daniels run. if they run at the 40. I'm worried they're not going to run. That's what I want to see. Because I was asked the question,

like, who can separate themselves between May and Daniels at the Combine? And I said, I don't know because I don't know what they're going to do. They are going to wow the heck out of people throwing the football.

But when you start to talk about, you know, your verticals as for a quarterback and your speed and your shuttles as a quarterback, that's the stuff that's fascinating to me. And that's the thing that all these guys will blow away.

But I don't. don't think they have to do it because of the situation that they're in and they'll be able to do whatever they want at their pro day. That's really interesting. I haven't thought about what they would do and what they won't, what they'll do and not do at the combine next week. But I'm just curious. If they ran the 40, what would Daniels run? Would he run 4-3? I don't know. Four-trees, that. And listen, I go back and watch that Florida game from time to time. I mean, when he goes down the sideline. It's incredible. And the guy behind, I was watching it last night, actually. The guy behind him is trying like, heck, and Jalen pulls up is going probably 75% the last 15 yards.

He still can't get them down. I would say in the four-fourth, and I want to see May. I think May could break four-six. Yeah. I really do. I mean, we should, like, my good friend Doc Walker would be listening to this saying, why are you guys talking about? Because the next thing, he loves to talk about shuttle runs or what he calls the underwear Olympics at the Indycom. Which he thinks is completely and utterly worthless, which I tend to agree more with him than not agree. I do. But we're talking about 40 times for quarterbacks. But, you know, so we've talked a lot about Drake May.

You know how much I love Jaden Daniels. I actually think it was one of the most exciting seasons by a player that I can remember. And I've noticed, and I said this to Leverro yesterday on the podcast, I said, he goes, you know, a bunch of people are putting Daniels number two now. And he goes, you really like him. And I said, look, what's happening right now is that the Super Bowl's over. And a lot of people that don't watch college football religiously, week in and week out, they're just putting on the highlight reel of Jaden Daniels. Oh, yeah. And they're picking up their jaw from the ground every other.

play because it is the most incredible wow tape of any quarterback we've seen in years. You mentioned the Bama game. I actually think that's the game that pro scouts should turn on and watch because they're NFL defensive players. It's on the road. It's a massive game. LSU has no defense. I mean, if they had been just average defensively, they may have won the national championship

this year. But they were horrendous defensively, and he was effing brilliant in that game. And the cheap shot that knocked him out of the game, that should have been flagged. It wasn't flagged. But he had neighbors

dropping pass after pass. There were multiple drops in that game by his NFL receivers. And somehow it was 28, you know, it was 21, 21, and halftime. It was amazing. Yeah. I said on game day that morning, Kevin, I said, you know, people talking about what I like in the game.

I said, if you think LSU is going to win, just bet him to win the Heisman trophy because if he wins that game, he's going to win the Heisman trophy. And it shows you how much of you how great a year I did is he lost that game and he still won the high. Well, you know what? What's funny about that is the next day or the Monday on the show I said, they lost that game. But to me, he clinched the Heisman trophy that night. Because if anybody was watching that game, they saw, and I think, you know, the Missouri game earlier in the year when he got hurt and led him back to a win against another good, you know, a good all-around team. Because Florida's defense stunk. Ole Miss's defense stunk. A&Ms didn't. He had a phenomenal game against A&M, too. I, there are a lot, like, I don't have any concerns about him except for two things.

one is his frame and whether or not it can hold up. I think he, these people that say he's a North-South runner haven't watched him. He's got great vision and great wiggle in the open field. And then the other thing that I'm just not sure about, I've watched a bunch of interviews with him. I've watched a bunch of those videos with him getting a game ball from Brian Kelly in the locker room. And everybody's saying speech, speech, speech. I had his offensive coordinator, Rob Likens from Arizona State on the radio show today, and he loves Jaden.

But he's very introverted. He's very shy. Everybody says, incredible dude, and by the way, so cool and calm on the field, but that he's not a vocal leader. I don't know that you have to be, but I just wonder whether or not Drake May if that'll be. the differentiator for some teams? I think both those guys are really,

really level-headed, Kevin, and I really start to think now about the situation these guys are going in where you're going to be dominated. There's going to be some old veterans that are going to have control that locker room, and I almost think it might be better if you're not

this out-spoken guy. Like, go out and prove yourself with your ability. Go out and show these guys. you can have success on the office inside, you know, show the defensive veterans that that you can put some balls in some windows that the previous guy couldn't. That's where I think we're starting to get this whole thing with social meeting. And I give those two guys credit for being able to be that level of heaven in this day and age where it's just, woe is me.

I mean, I go back once he realized, you know, he has a chance for the high. And he starts going on every ESPN show. And there wasn't any provocative things said. There wasn't anything that, you know, shine light on himself. He talked about his family. He talked about his team. He talked about his family and the trust he put in LSU when he transferred. Like, it's everything you want to hear with these guys.

And that's what's really, really cool because the problem, the issue is two of these three are not going to work out. And it's just brutal because they're all legitimate, legitimate dudes. And you want the best for them seeing how. many guys previously haven't been done to it. Real quickly on his frame being skinny. And, you know, I know you told me recently, you said he's not 6-4. What do you think he's going to measure at the combine? I would say maybe in the 6-3s.

Okay. Which is fine. I don't. He's not going to surprise you. 6.2.5, I'm good. Yeah. So do you have, is that a concern for you? It seems to be a concern for a lot of people.

It's been my concern watching them all year long. I mean, Anthony Richardson broke in week three, and he's got a Cam Newton body. So what's going to happen to Jaden Daniels? Is that a concern for you? It is. Anthony Richardson, his problem was he didn't play enough football and he didn't know when to get down. You go back and look at the first three weeks. so that the heat. He took. He took a hit

on a touchdown run. I think he knocked him out. I'm like, man, just get down. You're in the end zone. But I think James ahead from that wherewithal, it's the next, Kevin. It's the third down, you know, pressures

where you take a hit on the hip and you know, that guy's been stronger than the guy is you played against the previous three years. And then you get hit on it, you know, four plays later. And now that next day you're feeling it and you're not able to give 100% in practice on Tuesday and Wednesday. That's where the totality comes up.

And you talk to guys, I always say at the highest level, and they say, I take the frame because of the unknown of when you're going to get these hits and the tally of them. And listen, Jane could go put some, you know, more muscle on his bottom. There's no doubt. Is he going to be able to run a 4-3? Probably not. But is it going to be better off for him?

Yes. But I think he's way better when you talk about mindset. of taking hits than in Anthony Richardson, I think he's way above that length. But yeah, there is a slightness to his frame that worries. That does, you know, when you're looking at the other two especially, that's the problem is when I measure him against the other two guys in May and William, that's what sticks out to me.

All right. One more on this, and then I just want to ask you quickly about the five plus seven playoff format in college football. I don't get it with J.J. McCarthy watching. him. I don't get the talk of why he's going to be a first rounder. Some say that in NFL circles, he's rated much higher on boards than anybody would imagine at this point. Explain J.J. McCarthy's, you know, appeal. Well, you got to go back to he was like Harbaugh's favorite recruit. And when he brought him in, they had Cade McNamara. And things started rolling.

for Cade McNamara. And when you go back to when he started playing him, he put him in and situation. It didn't matter what the down and distance time of game. Like I think it was two series, and then he got one, or he started the first series in the second court, whatever. And there were some brutal circumstances he got thrown into and failed.

I go back to a game in the East Lansing when they lost. He fumbles, and I think he throws a pick in only like five series, and they lose that game. But I look at what he was up against. When you have that priority from the coaching staff and you're the young guy, you've got to take a lot of heat from the older guys, man. You've got to put up with a lot of stuff.

And I look at how he elongated that. I go back to last year where I thought he was incredible against Ohio State in the confidence that Michigan has, and opened up the offense early on to get that secondary out for the run game. And he hit the throw. There was no incompletions, man. He hit those throws.

And that place was as silent as I've ever heard it in the second quarter. And then you go back to, all right, we got it done. He gets the starting job. They beat Ohio State. They go to the Big Ten title game. That's fine. And then he goes to bring them to a place that they haven't been in forever. And he plays his worst game.

and I just think about how long this past year was for him, knowing his team could have played the national championship against. You're talking about the TCU game. TCU Fiesta Ball. He throws two pick sixes and they lose. Right. And they are backbreakers. Yeah.

And I just think about, you know, being the face of that program and fighting all the way back and this year saying, you know what, we are going to be all right. Let's just do what we need to do early on. And when I need to be really good, I'm going to be really good. And he was that, man. I mean, the timely throws against Ohio State, he was awesome out of the pocket. They lose the offensive lineman.

He started running around scrambling. The throws he made to end that game, the throws in the semifinal. I mean, you're up against the man. You're down in Alabama. You got one drive left. And that was as cool as I've seen anybody. So I get it. There's not the flash.

There's not that. But when I think about precision, game plan, taking what's supposed to be taken, I put him up there because he's made the throws when he has to as a guy like, let's say, Bo Nix, where that system is get the ball out

and let's get our ball handlers, the ball as fast they can to make guys mess. And I just look at JJ owning the offense, and I think that, I believe he has what it takes to succeed at the next level. All right, quick break, and then we'll talk about the 5 plus 7 playoff format for college football to finish up with Stanford, Steve, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you're one of those people into high-end vehicles, exotic vehicles,

there's a dealership in town that's brand new to the DMV that caters to that interest. It's Magnin Motors. find out more at magden motors.com. They specialize in clean, low mile, and unique spec vehicles. Every car goes through a 110 point inspection. It's backed by an extensive warranty. Financing and leasing options are available on all vehicles. And they've got an expert staff with an average of 20 years of experience. All the big brands, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Magdon Motors.com, that's M-A-G-D-N-Moters.com. All right, let me just get your thoughts on this before we wrap it up.

So yesterday, the NCAA, they agreed. It was voted on, and we have a 12-team playoff with the format now. We had it before, but with all of the conference changes and the disintegration of your league, the PAC-12, we had to reshape it. So it's five conference champions, the top four ranked. conference champions will get first round buys and host, not host, but we'll play quarterfinal games after our first round by. The fifth best conference, highest rated conference team, will get an automatic bid. And then just so for those of you that don't understand,

it'll be five automatics and then seven at large. So the NCAA tournament, you know, has the automatic births for conference champions or conference tournament champions, and then the the rest are at large. There's one thing more than anything else that bothers me about what they came up with, but I want your reaction first. I love it. I get it. People are going to complain about the seating.

We've never had to worry about seating in college football in my lifetime. I'm not, seriously, I'm not going to start worrying about it now. I'm really not going to. We wanted more teams in the playoffs, and we got that. The thing I was wondered, or I did wonder about, I got a chance to talk to Greg Sankey at the FTC Championship game this past year. I said, well, what do you, I mean, Kevin, I walked into that game, and I was like, holy Christmas.

This is, this is bigger than the national championship. I mean, it's Bama, Georgia. You know the winner's going. And I'm telling you, like, when ESPN getting that thing, I'm telling you right now that thing is going to be built up like the Super Bowl. It's going to stay at 4 o'clock, but it is as big as anything as I've been to because no matter what happens on a play, the place is rocking because it's 50-50. But going back to that, I look at the – I ask them, you know, do you worry about the conference championship going away? He's like, heck, no, he's like, look at this.

It's going to be even bigger next to him. I agree. I totally agree. He's like – and he said, he goes, it's a buy. You get a buy. And I think about it. And I'm like, wow, I mean, that 11 days at that point of the season, I think is astronomical. And I don't want to know.

No one's going to want to lose those games, but then you get a home game. The loser's going to get a home game, you know. So I get it. People are going to come after the seating. I don't care. I'm fired up for it. You look at the way it's set up, you know, for a Friday and a triple header on Saturday, the week after Army Navy, and we're right in it, man.

Amidst of all the bowl games that, you know, college football fans still love, but, man, you've got a lot more meaningful football being played, and I think the windows that they're in are absolutely spectacular. Yeah, I mean, that last part that you just said, I've heard this argument for years, even before we got a final four. Oh, it's going to render the regular season, you know, less important, the conference champ. What are you talking about?

It's not even, by the way, forget the buy in a lot of these instances, like the ACC championship game last year would have been for a bid, you know, a guaranteed bid. So, you know, you're going to be playing for that. There are lots of these championship games. Now, we won't have that because we won't have some of the divisions like we've had in the Big Ten. But the second place team in the Big Ten may have no chance at getting in at large, but they're in the championship game and they've got a chance to clinch a bid. So the games at the end of the year, the conference championship games are going to be so much more important across the board. I gave the example earlier. I'm like, how many years has the Big 12 championship game featured, you know, K-State and, you know, Texas?

And there was no birth at stake. Now there will be. But the thing that I, there are two things. There's one thing, by the way, I'm with you. I'm just glad that we'll have this. And I mean, for those of you that haven't seen the calendar, December 20th, 21st, you'll have a game on Friday night to kick it off the first round, a triple header on Saturday. By the way, I think the NFL will probably try to take it on on that Saturday, but we'll find out when their schedule comes out later on. And then the 31st and January 1st will be the quarterfinal rounds.

So you'll have two games on New Year's Eve, two games on New Year's Day, all played through bowl games. the championship, then the semifinals are the 9th and 10th of January, a Thursday night game and a Friday night game, and then the title game will be January 20th. So it'll be amazing. So here are the two things. You nailed one of them, but I'll start with this. I think there's going to be great pushback at some point from the four schools that get a buy that they don't get that incredible revenue bump that will come with playing a home game. And by the way, I think as fans, it's going to be so great to see the first round played in the venues of the higher seated team. But I'd like to see that for the quarterfinal round as well. But I understand

the bowls and how you got to have these bowl games be relevant or six of them every year. The seating to me is just easy. I understand we're getting something we haven't gotten and we should be thrilled. But this is just basic 101 competitive tournament, you know, talk. You you give the five automatics, the seven at large's, and you've got your field, and then you seed them one through 12 to have a competitive tournament, the most competitive tournament you can have. What you're talking about now is the possibility. Everybody's given the Notre Dame possibility. Notre Dame goes number one in the country is the best team in the country, and they're going to be the five seat in the current format. But how about the upset Big 12 winner with three losses? And now they've got a first round by because they upset, you know, whomever they beat in the final.

I just think that it should be receded once you have the 12 teams. Understood. Two things. I hope that happens for Notre Dame being a not a Notre Dame fan. That would be the best thing I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. But I think that's the only way you're going to get these four. I mean, because let's face it, man, the Big 12 is hanging on by a threat.

you know, I know the ACC has had some their issues with forces, but like, look at the Big 12 right now. Like, I honestly think Arizona might be the frontrunner. And I think that only way to make this for and make everybody happy is to guarantee that by now, can they rip these things up and go by the wayside in the coming years? Absolutely. So, like I said, I am not going to get overbound with the seedings. stuff. It's still going to be awesome. And, you know, it brings us to, I don't know about you

coming, you're older, but like I never thought we were going to see this. I honestly, like, growing up and playing in my day, like, never thought we were going to see the openness of 12 teams, you know, vying for a championship. And I'm truly, truly grateful for that. Me too. Can't wait. Thanks for doing this. as always. You got it, my man. Stanford, Steve, everybody. John Lucas next, right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

It's an absolute pleasure right now to welcome onto the show. One of the greatest players in Maryland basketball history, one of the greatest guards in ACC basketball history, one of the greatest tennis players in ACC history, John Lucas, who if you were like I was, you know, a child of the 70s, and a Maryland basketball fan. You were a huge John Lucas fan, which I was.

And I reached out to you to have you on the show, obviously to talk about your coach, Lefty Drusel, who passed away over the weekend at 92 years old. But before we get to your coach, tell everybody what you're up to these days. Well, I've been coaching with the Rockets, the Houston Rockets, the last six years, and I moved to the front office this year,

as a form of a general manager and front office. And I'm still doing the NBPA National Basketball Players Association, top 100 camp. And I have camps all over the country. And I'm developing youth basketball. I'm going a lot with that. You know, you have really had an unbelievable post-playing career. Everything that you did with your rehab centers,

and the people that you helped over the years that were struggling with some of the same things that you were struggling, coaching, being a head coach in the NBA, being an assistant coach, being in the Rockets organization for so many years. I mean, you really have had a life, haven't you? Basketball is my family business. You know, my youngest son is associate head coach at Duke, and my oldest son is coaching with the Phoenix son. So basketball has been our family business, and my daughter runs my company. So it's been our family business. And, you know, I've enjoyed, I've had every position in basketball.

I was the vice president and general manager and coach of the Sixers, I was coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers and Coach of the Spurs. I've been the first pick of the draft to the Asian veteran to the starting player, to a backup. So I think I know all the roles that I involved in basketball. And, John, you've lived in Houston pretty much for the last how many years. I mean, you know, you played in Houston, obviously. And did you just fall in love with Houston as a place to live?

Because you lived in so many different places as a player and as a coach. When I moved from, when they made me the first pick in the draft, from tomorrow, I came here and stayed and then, you know, Moses, who also went to Marlon for one day. We played together here, and we stayed. So I've been in Marlon. I've been in Houston 40 years. I've been my home and been my place.

And one of the biggest reasons is when I had my drug and alcohol problems, this city loved me until I could learn to love myself. So it was a big part of what I was doing in my future. So I see I owe this city. so I worked to try to give back and be in the servant of the city. You know, I remember your rookie season because as a Maryland fan but also as a bullets fan, you got drafted by the Rockets and in your first year, it was either your first year or the second year, you guys played the bullets in like the first round of the playoffs.

And I wanted you to do well, but I wanted the bullets to win the series, but you guys won that series, I'm pretty sure. got a good memory. We played them in the semifinal of Central Division Conference. Yeah. And we, that was West Unsell and Elvin Hayes, Phil Sheen here, and Mike, and those guys are all my heroes being at Marlon, and he used to play against him. And Moses and I were at Marlon had always, Moses had been in D.C. most of his time that summer. And so when we played them, I never forget.

Alvin Hayes said he didn't think any young center could beat them. And Moses had an unbelievable series that I played well. We beat them, but then we lost it. Right. We eventually lost to the Portland Trail Place for the championship. You have a very good number. Well, not only that, that was it for the Sixers until Moses came to Philadelphia in 1983, and they won it because the bullets went to the 10.

title and won the title the next year. And then went back and defended their title and lost to Seattle. They went back to back with Seattle those next two years. But I do remember that series. I do remember Moses. I want to say also on that team, wasn't Rudy Tomjanovich on that team? Rudy Tomjanovich, Calvin Murphy. Yeah. Mike Newland. Theo Rattles. We had a very good team at that time. Tom Owens, who played with South Colorado that had just left the ACC.

We had a very good team, and so did the Bullets. Yeah. Moses would go on with, you know, it was the year after Magic won the title as a rookie that next year, I think, was either his last year in Houston

or next to last year in Houston, but they ended up beating the Lakers as the defending champs, and one of those, Remember they had the best two out of three miniseries in the first round? Yeah. Yeah. Then Moses and those beat magic in them like the 4 to 1 because one of the guys I put in coaching and played with him, which was Mochi.

Yeah. He played on that team along with Doc, George McGuinness, and Bobby Jones, World Beat Free. Yeah. I mean. And Andrew told. I mean, how about you and Calvin Murphy in the back? court. That was a hell of a back court. Well, Murph and I, we were, I played the point with guardage, two cards.

And Murph taught me a lot about the game of basketball. And we are both still with the Rockets organization today. He does color commenter, and I'm still there with them. Wow. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I might be thinking of somebody else. But isn't he one of the all-time greatest free-throw shooters in the history? of the game. Wasn't he like career 90%? Something like that. He was a career 90% until Steph Terry broke his record along with Rick Barry. Yeah, Rick Barry. And Larry Bird was up there for two.

Yeah, well, Rick Barry shot his underhanded. I don't know how the kids would react to that today. So, God, yeah, it's so great to hear your voice. So, look, I called you about lefty. the four years you spent at Maryland for some of us of a certain age. I mean, those were, you know, those were memories. Those are childhood memories and how big Maryland basketball was in the area and how good the team was. And, you know, Lucas played on both of Lefty's elite eight teams at Maryland. In 73, they lost to Providence.

And then, of course, in 75, after McMillan and Elmore graduated, they lost to Louisville. That team should have had Moses on it. But I guess I just want your thoughts, you know, on lefty and being a part of his life for as many years as you were, four of them as a player. Well, you know, coach was an ideal coach for our team. He was an innovator. He started Midnight Madness. He also started having him play Hill to the Chief when he walked in and he would always put his victory sign up.

Coach was, I was the first freshman to start in Division I basketball because of him. Howard White got hurt, and I ended up being a starter for him in the first freshman to start. But coach's greatest attribute was his love for his players. He really loved his players. And at that time, he was determined to make Marilyn back then for those who were at that time, the UCLA of the East. And back then, we used to go on tobacco road and we were hating.

And in fact, you know, you may remember Lefty was the first one that people put nicknames on the back of the jersey. Remember H. Howard White, you said H on the back of his jersey. Jimmy O'Brien had, O.B. I didn't remember that.

He was one of the first. But I'm going to tell you what my memory goes back to coach. And since this is black history, Coach came to my high school when my dad was the principal to watch a guy named Charlie Scott. You remember that name Charlie Scott? Of course, yeah. He recruited him heavily at Davidson, yeah.

Yeah, and Charlie was the first black to play in the ACC. Right at Carolina. But Mike Malloy was the first black player to play because lefty, took Mike Mallor because Davidson was 25 miles from a main highway, and Charlie wanted to go where he could be right close to highway and ended up going to UNC Chapel Hill. Left Hill has always been groundbreaking about that, and he's always been a big part.

Now when I go back to Maryland, it's like a new Maryland to me because the Infinity Center, no more cold field house. People don't know how special that was where that was to play. And how big Marlon basketball was. We were on primetime TV at night. Remember, we played the game before the Super Bowl. We played North Carolina State two years in a row on Super Bowl Sunday.

With David Thompson, distraught. And one of the funniest stories, David Thompson recruited me to state. And I kept telling Coach, coach, this guy, David Thompson, we're going to have to do something different. Oh, Luke, you always talk about these Carlisle of the guy. David averaged 40 points against us. You know that? I didn't know it was 40.

I knew it was a whole lot. On Super Bowl Sunday. And you remember when Liddy rammed him into the backboard, they had a picture of his shoulder at the top of the square? Well, I remember the story about how David Thompson had that 48-inch vertical and he could go up and take, you know, take off a quarter, take off two dimes and a nickel and replace it with a quarter at the top of the backward. I do remember that NCAA tournament game where he hit his head on the side of the backboard. They hit that guy's head. I thought when he jumped over the kidney and his feet hit his head. Exactly. And he had to take them off.

You're out. Yeah. He left it with all. And then David would come up and play pickup with us at mom. And coach, because he had to have knee surgery. Coach said, you know, that knee not going to be the same. But coach, I'll just tell you, Coach Chazelle was one of the best. Always, always engaging, always enthusiastic, and he loved falling basketball. not all of his time.

After we left, the recruitment changed and things changed for him. So he went through some tough times there for a while. But, you know, like I always said, by coach, he can never stay good all the time. Yeah. And so he went through a tough period, and then eventually because of who he was and how big he was at the school, he eventually left.

And he won over 100 games at four different schools. Yeah, it's crazy. And people used to question this coaching. I think that's pretty good as a coach. You know, one of the biggest fights I had with Coach all the time was he wanted to be in the Hall of Fame. I said, Coach, if you make it as great, if you're not, you're still a Hall of Fame career.

And eventually he got in and gave one of the all-time great speeches. He really did. He really wanted that Hall of Fame because of what you just said in many ways, there was always this discussion about lefty, great recruiter, OK coach. Of course, the wins, you know, completely negate that argument. When he left coaching, he was behind Adolf Rup, Bobby Knight, and Dean Smith when he left coaching from Georgia State in the early 2000s. But there was always that, you know, he didn't get to a national, he didn't win a national championship, didn't get to a final four, you know, signed, you know, four number one players signed you out of the state of North Carolina right under the, you know, the nose of all of the tobacco road schools. And I always felt that that was an unfair knock. And I had Tom McMillan on the radio show yesterday. And he said the same thing. He said, Lefty was a very good strategist and a very good. Preparation coach. You know, we, the years that Lenny Mack and myself,

there was probably our best year. Yep. And remember, we lost the North Carolina State. Of course. And we couldn't play another game because only one year had to win the conference tournament. Right. The next year, they changed the rule for us. Yep.

And then one year we went to the file, we were going to the foul board, and then we played Providence, who at that time had one of the best teams in the country, too, with Dave Gabbitt. Right. Marvin Barnes. And then we lost to Louisville, yeah, man, we lost to Louisville when they had a great team with Junior Bridgman, Wesley Cox, Phil Bond, and they went to the Final Four,

and the guy Rex Morgan missed the Frito that would have won them the national check. Right, lost the UCLA. Yeah, in the semis. Yeah, right. So we were there, and every year we had. But our best teams, North Carolina State, had just as much talent. And we lost in double over. I think it was an overtime.

I don't remember the game like I used to, but that game in 73, 724, the final ACC game that was double overtime. It was one overtime, still considered to be one of the greatest games in NCAA history, 103 to 100. Many people who were there that night, I remember as a kid watching it and being devastated. And you guys were probably, you were ranked fourth,

but you were probably the second best team in the country if UCLA wasn't, and you would have been in the final four that year. We didn't go to the NIC. We didn't play another game, and we were ranked fourth or fifth that year because of the four teams that went to the final four. Right.

That game, that team was your chance. But, you know, the next year, when you guys went, we had Brad Davis as a freshman, and you went with something which was unique, right, in college basketball, which was a three-guard offense. That wasn't something that was done a lot. That's correct. So we added Brad, and we had a three-go-old. But before I go to Brad in those years, remember, we went out to play UCLA. Yeah, in 73-74. And we lost that game. 64, 65. And we were all trying

our best to be on the collision course to beat them. But in order to get there, we were going to have to beat State. And State ended up being us in the final again, and went on and won it. So there are a couple of things, and we talked about

this, I think, in kind of remembering Lefty. So for those that haven't heard it, in 1973, Maryland was preseasoned the number three or four team in the country. UCLA was on a long winning streak with Bill Walton at center going into his senior year. And because Maryland had said and Lefty had said, we're going to become the UCLA of the East, they scheduled this made-for-TV game to kick off that season at Pauley Pavilion.

And Maryland lost 65-64. But I'm going to ask you, do you remember the chance that you guys had down one at the end of that game and what happened? Mack and I were going to run a pick and roll on the side, and Pete Turgovich tipped the ball from behind me, and the guy who eventually became his name was Keith Wilkes at the time, eventually turned into Jamal Wilk. Save the ball to Pete Turgovich, and that's how Mack and I had one of the worst games,

the two of us, had one of the worst, our two worst, games of the year that year. Yeah. Lidney played great. Lennie Elmore had a great game against the Boston. But Tommy Lee Curtis and those guys, I'll play Mack and us as a rest of them. But that was a good game. And I tell you how they got us, as you remember.

That was the first time I ever saw people when they introduced our team. All of the stands at the lower section had newspapers. And when they introduced us, they acted like they didn't even know. we were in the arena. They were reading newspapers. They put the newspapers over their faces and I think that had an effect on us. Yeah, I had Billy Packer

on the show before he passed away a couple of years ago, and I didn't realize he actually called that game, I think maybe with Dick Enberg, but that's beside the point. The thing that he reminded me of was this, and I don't know if you remember it. So after you guys

lost the ball there at the end, there was a foul as the buzzer went off, and they were going to send UCLA to the line to shoot free throws, but Lefty ran to the scorers table and said, the game's over, the game's over, because he wanted you guys to lose by a point, not by two or three points. Do you remember that?

I don't remember that. I don't remember that. That's not all the coaches out of his mind. I remember. I remember we played in the golden. They had a game where Phil Smith. I don't know if you remember this guy named Phil Smith. He was like, he and I were the best two guards of the country.

We played seven-sixth and the Golden Gate Cable Car class. Okay. And we played the fire. And they wouldn't let us in. Was this the Phil Smith that ended up playing for the Warriors? Yeah, he and I played together for the Warriors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, got it. So we could end.

So let's just we can't get him. we won't play in this game. Man, you should have seen those people. Lefty had a bravado about it. They gave you if you played more confidence. And if you didn't, you would want to play for it. So wait, what happened? So you got to the game in San Francisco, and what did lefty say?

And we had to go in a certain door, and we were late. And I can't go in this door. I'm not going to play. They were what? We're not playing. Get back on the bus, guys. going on back. Man, those people

moving to the left and right to get us. Coach was at there. He threw me out of practice

one day because whenever we got ready to play Carolina, we would practice long. And one day

we were going and so whenever they went to the four corners it was like we were going to go to the

zone and I used to say, gather and get back in. So I had enough of praise

and I went real smart as gather he said, he gathered the fuck out the gym. He threw me out the gym the day before the game and then called me the next one, make sure I was okay. I said, Jesus Christ. But wait, wait, I miss that.

So what were you when you were practicing against the four corners, you said we, I would have called, I would say gather, we would come back in, call and go back to a zone. And so I said, gather to come back in. We've done it like 10 times. So I just said, gather. They got to be held out to gym. And so he was a lot of the league.

Those games against Carolina and NC State were obvious, you know, in the last 25, 30 years, you know, Duke has really been the rival. You know, for Gary's years, it was Duke. But for you guys, it was NC State and Carolina. Yes. You know, for one third, for about three weeks. North Carolina State was number one. We were number two or three, or Carolina was two or three, for almost three weeks in the season.

All three ACC teams at the top, wow. And that's what ACC was 18 conference. Yeah. Seven. No, seven, it was seven. That's 17. Yeah. And then when you lost the state, you would drop the four or five.

That's crazy. But now people don't realize on those three teams, there's almost 20 pros out of the three teams. Yeah. Mitch Cumpchick. Bobby Jones. Walter Davis. Walter Davis. Phil Ford.

Phil Ford. Yeah. John Custer. Tommy Burles. David Thompson. Monty Tow. Moe Rivers. And you remember a guy named.

Stoddard. Phil Stoddard. The pit. The pit. I want to play baseball for the Orioles. Yeah, for the Orioles, exactly. And in Clemson, a skip wide, free rolling. Skip Wise, that name always comes up.

From Baltimore. From Baltimore. Yeah, he was one of the great talents of all time. Yeah, absolutely. Was David Thompson the greatest player that you played against? Ever? In college. Yes.

We just couldn't stop him when we played him. It's just those heartbreaking losses, and it would be like, you know, Tom Roy would. People don't realize, you know, now because of his age and where it was, people don't realize he was six-three. Yeah. And could jump out the gym. And back then you couldn't duck, but they got photos of the number 44 over the realm. and, you know, he won a couple of scoring titles at the Denver Nicket. Yeah.

Yeah, he was so good in the ABA. And, you know, there's that famous, you know, him and Gervin on the last day of the regular season when Thompson went for 73. And then the ice man needed like 58 and he got 63 for the scoring title. So I wanted to ask you specific to lefty as a recruiter. How did he get you out of North Carolina? Because you really were the first player that he kind of plucked right out of North Carolina with all four of those schools highly interested in you. Well, I wanted to play tennis, and I don't think I was going to be allowed to play tennis at Carolina.

I had to play basketball tennis. And you got to remember in North Carolina, tennis. I never lost the set in high school tennis three years. So I wanted to play tennis and I asked coach, I said football coach. And then I talked about George Carl.

I said, if I'm good enough to beat out George Carl, will I play? You won't be able to beat out George Carl. And I said, Coach, he said, he ain't left to say, hell son, if you're good enough, you'll play, I'm not worried about that. And if you want to play tennis,

you can play tennis too. That's where I'm going. And then he walked in my house, and he walked right to the icebox and got a soda, sat down, and until he passed, would call my parents three or four times a year. Really? To this date. Wow. So they were sold.

Your parents were sold on Lefty. Yeah. And when he had a stroke about two Sundays ago. he couldn't talk and I talked to him for about 30 minutes Pamby's family called me and we talked for about 30 minutes and we had talked to each other

about being Paul Burroughs that he juggles criminal and I'm going to go down for his doing to have that but nothing was one of a kind his recruiting

he would do anything and tell you what you needed to know. But when he needed to be strong, he was also strong enough for his players. But that, when he came to visit you, people always said that left, the parents always fell in love with Lefty when he walked into their home. Was it the same with your parents? Yes. You know, he was ball here, about six, four, three. And, see, we knew coach. He went to Duke University. Yeah.

And for my dad and my family, you know, what he did in North Carolina with Mike Malloy's blacks at that time and then the recruitment of Charlie Scott. See, Charlie Scott made coach take Mike Mallor. So, whenever coach was going to look at a player, Charlie Scott would ride down to Davidson to tell coach to help coach if he was good enough. So, Gleptly have such a great name in North Carolina. because you've got to remember back then, integration that just happened. Sure.

He was so much more. I mean, we talk about Midnight Madness, and we talk about all the other things that he did, but what he did off the court culturally was just as important. I think that's so interesting because, you know, when Charlie Scott didn't go to Davidson and instead chose to go to the University of North Carolina to integrate North Carolina,

Dean Smith gets so much credit for that, deservedly so, for integrating the sports at the University of North Carolina. And Dean Smith obviously had a huge conscience and was incredibly progressive thinking. But I don't know that people think of Lefty that way, but to your point, so when Charlie Scott decided not to go to Davidson instead to go to North Carolina, where by the way he beat Lefty in the Elite 8 with a shot at the bus. at Cole Fieldhouse to go to the final four. He recruited Mike Malloy, who was a player. Was he playing in North Carolina, or was he out of a different area? He was out of a different area. Okay.

And, you know, it's funny. We're talking today. Charlie called me today to talk to him, and Charlie told me, he said, look, I said, Mike, and he said, Coach is the reason I'm out. He said, because Davidson was so far off the beaten road. that that's why I didn't go there. Right. Because, see, Charlie, my high school, I saw Charlie Scott play.

Lefty was in my gym when the Hillside High School beat Longford, 100, 4006, and Charlie Dean Smith and all of those were at that game. Wow. And that's when I fell out with the great Scott, with Charlie. And so for me, when coach got him, lefty was like a, Dean Stiff was the name, but Lefty was also such an innovative. But Davidson, at that time, we ranked ahead of Carolina and all of them. Remember that?

Yeah. They were, the coach had them ahead because Will Hetzel and Dick Snyder, all of them played for left. Yeah, I mean. And people really forget the coaches that coach put in the league, Terry Holler, who played for him. played and coached for him in Davidson, yep. Yeah, and Joe Herring got into coach,

our wife is a big part of Nike. George Ravelling. George Ravling was the first black coach in the ACC. Yeah, lefty hired the first black assistant coach in the ACC. George Ravling, who obviously went on to, you know, he was one of the, I mean, I think about the hall of... And I get it. And I get it.

But you know what? Really, he got, like I told coach, when the Lynn Byr's incident happened. You know, coach had begun to have some bad years and not the years that were been there. And I told him, you can't stay on top for him. And your run was a long time. And so, you know, eventually people, you know, you either, coach has always. he's hard to be five. They're not hard to be there for all.

So, I mean, Coach did. I mean, that was an awful time. And then, you know, at that time, our league in the early 80s was all about drugs and alcohol in that period of time. And so he got a lot, he got a lot of criticism and things like that.

And as you know, things happen on people's watching. So, but he got through it. And then he just kept moving. forward. But I won it's proudest moment, you know, what's seeing Gary Williams win the national championship for a lot. Yeah, you know, I think you can speak to this maybe better than I or anybody else can.

I don't know that Gary and Lefty were ever super close, but, you know, Chuck ended up being on Gary's staff there for a while, Chuck Dressel. But you're saying that Lefty was super proud when Gary won the national championship. Yeah, he was very, very pleased for him. You know, obviously anybody who has a legacy, what a legacy was, I remember he really hated to see Barlin leaves the ACC. Right. We all do. And it was for basketball, but Marlon left because of football and the money that it could basically generate.

So, you know, I got why he left. But he was absolutely the best. He and, you know, some of the things aren't meant for you. And like I told coach, coach was a fighter, and it just wasn't your time to win a championship tomorrow. And, you know, he put a lot of pros in the league. You do what you can. You have a different attitude as you get older.

But, you know, as you know, when you're going through the middle of it, you're in the middle of the fight. And, you know, it's hard to let go. of things that were so good to you. He got through that period of time, and he got through it and I think he always felt that was going to keep him from the Hall of Fame.

And I just said, you always make the Hall of Fame. Yeah. But see, the Hall of Fame, to me, is so political anyway. It is not judged on the, it's not like it was years ago. You can almost pay your way

into the Hall of Fame now. Do you think that if Moses had come to Maryland? if Utah didn't give him all that money, and he had played at Maryland, that you guys would have won the title? Let me tell you this story. So Moses was my roommate for one night.

It was one night. And left me put him with me to make him stay. Because I did all the recruiting the most. I drove to Petersburg nine or ten times a year. And Moses wouldn't even let us play in the people. Me and Mo Howard and Owen, Brian, guys would ride down there to go see him and go get. He'd hide from us.

And I said, Coach, we're not kidding this guy. This guy ain't going tomorrow. And so how would White stay down there? And I would move down there for three weeks. Left just to spare. So we would ride down there three and a half hours to play, pick up, and do it. And he wouldn't pick us. He wouldn't pick none of them.

We didn't even play in the pickup game. And then when the games ended, he wouldn't even hang out with us. He would give us the time. I said, Coach, I ain't going down there anymore. More ain't coming. And then Moses called me and told me he's going to run. I almost fell out to me. Because, you know, everybody thought he was going to San Diego.

Because Moses lived in a one-room house. In Petersburg. Yeah, I said, you know, you didn't think. And, you know, Moses averaged 32 points, 17 rebounds, and 13 blocks for games. Crazy. Would you have won the national championship with him? And wait a minute. And never had a place.

call. Because he just, he's a relentless offensive rebounder. Yeah, and I kept saying, now you think he's going to be able to and then he woke up because at that time, David Falk was representing me for my tenants, right?

And so, Moly said, I think I'm going to approach, Luke. I'm not going to college. I said, well, no, we got to go class. I said, no, no, no. I said, if you're going to go, let me drive you down here to David Falk, and let me talk. So I drove them down there, and they sent me back to school. And Moses went to the pro.

I couldn't believe it. And I said, well, what about me? No, no, no, no. And the guy who took him was a guy by the name of Tom Norseki. Yeah. Took him with the Utah Stars. Yeah. Well, when I came out of school, Houston Rockets.

Tom DeSulke was a head. head coach, just got named the head coach of the Houston Rockets. Small, such a small world. Well, wait a minute, he traded to get the first pick to take you. To take me, because I was all set to go to Milwaukee at four. And he traded the pick to get the number one pick and got me and told me by Christmas, will I have Moses? And then I understood how very good Moses Malone was.

such great stories but if Moses had made it more than one night at Maryland before Utah paid him all that money you guys went to the elite eight without him would you have won the national championship that year in 75? We've been really close. We'd have been really close. The Bill Walton stuff is really unbelievable. Bill Walker was the help of college player, man. That thing was really good.

They were really, really good. And we would have been really good. I think so, but you know, you just don't know. But Moses, I mean, our defense would have been unbelievable. Mosz was unbelievable. All right. He was the fastest guy in Houston. He was the fastest guy on our team.

He outran everybody. Everybody sees him in Philadelphia when he put on all that weight. Yeah. And, you know, grew up. But Moses was the quickest guy in our league. Moses, Moses, average, you know, he and I actually in Houston started the alley-oop. Well, David Thompson perfected it a few years earlier.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about, but the alley-up he got was, like, different than Moses than I got. Moses, we would catch sinners leaning down, and I would throw the ball over his head, over the guy leaned down. So what Moses did the first year, I led to League in a sense, right? Yeah.

You know what he did the second year? he would take the blob, hit it off the backboard, right? Yeah. Make it an offensive rebound for him. It's so it wouldn't be an assist. And then put it back in to get three points. That's great. That is so funny because I think people...

Yeah. So, you know, Moses kept setting these offensive rebound records, remember? Yeah, of course. That was always... It was always his rep is that Moses would throw it up against the backboard, two or three times catch it, then finally score, and he'd have three offense rebounds and two points. But that took the assist away from you. That's funny.

Yes. All the time. That is so funny. So, look, I've taken up so much of your time. It's so much appreciated. But I did want to ask you this, because something that McMillan said, and I've heard from others, that you would, that players just always heard from Lefty over the years, that you guys stayed in touch with him, that sometimes he would just pick up the phone.

and call. Was that the same with you? I told you. I talked to him a week ago. Yeah, right. But during... He would go to Durham. He would go to Durham and visit my parents. My dad's 103. Oh, my God. And coach and George, his wife would go visit my dad. Still, call me during the course of the year. You know, people don't remember left. They hired me to be the assistant coach with all his coaches left to try to get Ralph Samson. And Ralph eventually went to Virginia. you. But we were right there at the end. Yeah.

They get him. And, you know, Coach, it's always, you remember Lai Gibson? Of course. Yeah, he beat Notre Dame. Yeah, Laird Gibson had a serious illness and became an infant before he passed. Oh. And Coach raised money for him.

He called all of us to give money and give support to Lerickson. Wow. He had a number of his former, players of people who would come on hard times. He would call, and we, you know, we don't get the credit for the Carolina family or the Duke Brotherhood, but we're all still really, really close. I talked to old Senate.

You know the Senator is, don't you? McMillan. Yeah, Senator's all. And then Lenny used to be Michael Jackson because he used to think he could sing like Michael Jackson. And talked to back. Steve Sheppel all the time. And every time I'm in Philly, I talk to Moe,

when we talk on a pretty regular basis. Porek was a dentist. And I used to talk to Billy Hahn all the time. Oh, yeah. Right. Now, wait a minute. Now, Billy Hahn's mom and dad came to see him at a Christmas, and I'll let you go.

No, no, no. This is great. I don't want to stop. Billy Hans Perge drove from Indiana to see him play. on the weekend and the Christmas to me. And we won our first game, and the last game of a cruise, there's about eight minutes to go in the game.

And Billy gets up to put his own self in the game. Coach goes crazy. Wait, what happened? So, wait a minute. So Billy... Billy's prize in his prize. He wanted his purse to see him play. He had driven all that side to see him play.

The game was winding back. He got up and put his own self in. Coach sat there and looked at it. Coach was one of a kind. Well, yeah, but I remember when we lost the state, remember he put his foot through the chair? Oh, yeah. I mean, the stomping on the sideline and all this stuff. You know, you reminded me of the Hailed of the Chief.

People, they would play Hale to the Chief when Lefty would walk out of the tunnel at Cole onto the floor. It was wild. It was. And I love to hear about the brotherhood and the fact that all of you stayed close. I mean, I know that happens with... You're a Jap, Jab. Jemble, remember Jab? Yeah, of course.

He's living in Vegas. He's an FBI. He's with the FBI. All our guys are going on to do things and be a part of stuff. And, you know, it's just real funny. Coach never gets a lot of that credit. You know, Coach, you could go on for Coach. Coach did a lot of good.

And, you know, it's, it was a blessing. You don't really appreciate him until you really now see all the things. My favorite line used to be the hard I work, the lucky I get. Always one of his go-to lines for sure. This was so much fun. This has been such a pleasure. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time you've given. I think a lot of people are going to be really happy to hear your voice and to hear your thoughts.

Thank you so much for doing this. All right. Thank you. All right. Bye. One of the greatest to ever do it at the University of Maryland and in the ACC in college basketball period, John Lucas, everybody. I enjoyed that a lot. By the way, speaking of Terps Hoops, they got a commitment today from five-star center, Derek Queen, 6-10,

One of the top players in the country. This is a huge recruiting get for Kevin Willard. All right, back tomorrow with Tommy.