The Kevin Sheehan Show - Steve Spurrier

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

Kevin interviews Steve Spurrier on the show today. Before that, the latest news on the sale of the team from Teddy Scheifler that Jeff Bezos is NOT going to bid on the team. Also on the show today, ESPN's John Keim talking everything Washington Commanders.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Hey, we wound up 5 and 11. Not very good. But there was some worse than us.

I guess that's one positive way to look at it. We weren't the worst team in the league. Why Steve Spurrier to open the show? Five and 11, not too good. Well, because Steve Spurrier is going to be on the show today. I'm going to keep this first segment really short, and then you'll hear my conversation with Steve Spurrier coming up after Spurrier, John Kime will be on the show. This show today is presented by Window Nation. Go to WindowNation.com or call them at

86690 Nation. You can get five years of interest-free financing on your purchase right now. You're not going to pay any interest until the year 2028 plus. Buy two, get two free, so you're paying half price on the windows already. Call them at 86690 Nation. Go to windownation.com. Mention my name, you'll get a free estimate. I promise you. You won't work with a better company that's got a better product for a better deal.

They are terrific to work with. I've worked with them for now 14 years. And all of the experiences from just about everybody that's ever had any experience with Windonation swears by them. do to 86690 Nation or Windonation.com and mention my name. There is some news on the ownership front. It comes from Teddy Schifler. Remember we had Teddy Schifler on the show last Friday. Teddy Schifler's prediction last Friday, and he was a great guest, was that Bezos was still hovering. And his prediction when I asked him to make a prediction was, hey, you know, I'll go for it here.

I'll predict that Jeff Bezos ends up getting the team. Well, Teddy Schifler, who writes for Puck News, just tweeted out, Jeff Bezos is not in the bidding process for the Washington commanders and is not currently planning to make a bid for the team, a source with direct knowledge tells at Teddy Schifler. So there you go. according to Teddy Schifler at Puck News, Bezos is out. This is not surprising news for people like me who have been predicting Josh Harris all along.

I am still on Josh Harris. I have told you sooner rather than later for three weeks now, and I've been wrong about that. But let me just emphasize right now. I not only think it's sooner rather than later that we get an announcement about, the Josh Harris bid being the winning bid, I think it comes much sooner rather than later. I think we are nearing the announcement of this, boys and girls. And with that, I want to read this tweet that I got, which I thought was interesting. It came from John. It was actually an email. Excuse me. John emailed us at the Kevin Sheehan Show.com where you can email us.

Also, please don't forget to rate us and review us on Apple and Spotify and follow us on both of those platforms too. You can click the follow button on the Apple podcast app in the upper right-hand corner. And for Spotify, it's down the left side about midway down the left side. But John emailed me the following. Kevin, you brought up a very interesting point with Phillips from Richmond yesterday. and he was referring to Michael Phillips from the Richmond Times Dispatch who was on the radio show with me yesterday. And he said,

You said that we may have reached the point where when the news on the sale of the team comes, it will feel anticlimactic. You summed up the way I feel perfectly. I almost wonder if it's Snyder's plan to wear us down on the sale, as much as he's worn us down over the years on everything else. It's actually to his benefit that the reaction be subdued more than it would have been if it had been done faster.

The celebration parade idea may be less appealing now, just a thought. Thank you, John. By the way, on your last point, you know, sort of suggesting that Snyder had a plan to wear us down, you know, over the last four or five months before, you know, making the announcement on the sale, that would have required, you know, some force. some strategy, some thinking a few steps ahead. And he hasn't really shown that kind of aptitude over the time that he's been the owner. His reactions are much more impulsive than they are kind of well thought out. So I don't think that's the reason that this has taken that long. But to your first point, which is, you know, what I had mentioned to Michael Phillips yesterday, and for those of you that didn't hear it, it was on the radio show, and I'll just summarize it, I just said to

Michael at one point, and he was talking about, you know, his current thoughts on the sale process and where we were and all of the reporting and the back and forth. And I said, you know, I think when we finally get the news, it's going to feel somewhat anticlimactic. It's going to feel like the real news was when we heard that Bank of America had been retained by the Snyders to explore the possibility of a sale. And I just feel like, you know, five months later, right, five months later, roughly, we're sitting here and when we get the news, if it's in the next few days, or if it's beyond that, it's going to feel, you know, not as exciting. That's the way I feel. I don't know if everybody else feels that way. But, you know, I think what it is, is it's like we've become

numb to all that has surrounded this organization in recent years. Like we've become almost desensitized. You know, all of the shenanigans, you know, the investigations, the lawsuits, the oversight and reform committee things, the, you know, all of this stuff, this would be shocking all of these news reports and all of these investigations, et cetera, that we've gotten for really now coming up on three years. This would be, you know, big news in most NFL cities, but it's now mundane here. You know, it's run of the mill here.

Like the other day, the news that they had settled the lawsuit with DC for $650,000 for ripping off customers with their deposits, that was like something that even, that was like blah. It was like it barely registered here. And I think that's the point, John is. is making and why I felt the way I felt when I said what I said to Michael Phillips yesterday about, you know, when we get the news at this point, it's going to feel sort of, you know, anti-climactic. You know, the damage, as Tommy said and has said, the damage that's been done

to this fan base, you know, is measurable in things like attendance and television ratings locally, etc. But I think that the psychological damage isn't quantifiable. And we're not going to know what that means until the team is sold because there is an expectation that all things will be repaired when Dan leaves. And I do believe that that would have been true like five or six years ago. You know, I think the last three to five years, there have been people in this fan base that are no longer really fans, or like in my case, are less passionate about the team, but interested, that, you know,

it's not just about Dan leaving anymore. For so long, that's what it was all about. I know out there they believe that once Dan is gone, they believe the floodgates, the revenue floodgates, will open up. I think we won't know, as Tommy said, what the real overall damage is, until he sells the team.

And I think that the recovery from what he's done to this organization over a quarter of a century is perhaps going to be a little bit more difficult than maybe we all think. I think there's going to be a jump, no doubt. I think there's going to be a jolt when this becomes finalized. And I think there's going to be a revenue jolt.

I think there are going to be more season ticket packages sold. I think they're going to have more corporate sponsors. But I don't know that we're going to have you know, a 90,000 seat stadium that we can fill with a waiting list. I think a lot of the people that left and got worn down and just insulted too many times and you combine that with everything of the last couple of years, including the loss of the name, I think many of those people found something else to do. We'll see. But John, yeah, I, you know, By the way, I think kind of the celebration parade would be distasteful.

I know I've said that before. I think, you know, I wouldn't kick a guy while he's down. I would just let this happen, let it go, let him move on, and let's, you know, get a fresh start with a new owner and understand going in that it'll feel great and that, you know, it couldn't be worse. And then focus on hopefully finally, you know, somebody who will come in here. and give them a chance from a top-level down standpoint. Hey, one other thing real quickly before we get to Spurrier, because I saw this reported, and I am excited about this, and that is it's being reported that Hunter Dickinson is going to visit Maryland this weekend.

A Georgetown visit is also scheduled. Hunter Dickinson, the number one guy in the transfer portal. if he comes to Maryland and they've got Dickinson, Juju Reese, Dante Scott is back, Jamir Young is back, Deshawn Harris-Smith, the other recruits that are coming in that are top 15 recruit class, you know, guys that were on this team last year, Ian Martinez, a few others, they'll be pre-season top 10.

They still, you know, could get another transfer if it's not Dickinson that could really elevate them from where they are right now, which is kind of borderline top 20-ish for next year. But, I don't know, Scott told us on the show last week that Dickinson, it's about money, and I don't know that Maryland can afford Hunter Dickinson. We shall see. Up next, Steve Spreyer, I'm looking forward to this.

You'll hear it right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, joining me now, and I have to tell you, this is my pleasure, is the old ball coach. Steve Spurrier, who, you know, here in Washington, we got two years of Steve Spurrier, but coach, I've been a fan from afar for a long time going back to the Florida years, going back to the Duke years, when you actually coached one of my high school basketball teammates, Anthony Dilwig, at Duke, way back in the late 80s. And I've been following your career for so long, and it's a pleasure to have you on. First of all, how are you doing?

Oh, I'm doing fine, Kevin. I'm down here in Gainesville, Florida. I've got a title called Ambassador to the University of Florida, and it's a pretty good gig if you can get it. I sort of come and go, got an office down at the stadium, and, you know, try to promote athletics as well as the academic part also. So doing that, we opened a restaurant down here. It's doing very well.

Spurrier's Grit Iron Grill. So I'm staying actually pretty busy, I guess. Well, that's good. You are in town for the Touchdown Club Awards dinner tomorrow night. Well, you will be honored, Dexter Manley, my best friend, Scott Van Pelt, Terry McClorn, a lot of people. By the way, this is an event where you can still get tickets for tomorrow night. in Bethesda, just go to D.C. Touchdown Club.com.

You mentioned it's a pretty good gig if you can get it. I would imagine that includes a lot of golf rounds. How are you playing these days? I don't play near the way I used to. The guys I play with, we play from way up. If I'm hitting the ball decent, I can make a bunch of pars, and occasionally a birdie or so. but yeah, I don't quite play like I used to, but yeah, I'm still playing and still trying to do my annual little golf tournaments.

They have one out at Pebble Beach called the Coaches Classic. A college coach brings three friends with him, and they have a handicap and a low gross two parts of the tournament. So our team's won it several times, but not anymore. I bring my two sons out and a guy now that we're out. out there for the camaraderie, I think, mostly. Yeah, well, that's most... The company in your foursome is as important as the golf itself. You know, I was curious, what's your most memorable round at Augusta since we just

finished up Masters Week? Somebody asking me that today. The first time I ever played it was back in 1978. I was actually Georgia Tech, and Pepper Rogers came into Coach's meeting room, said, how many guys were to play Augusta. Of course, about eight or nine of us raised our hands. We had guys, you know, like the offensive line coach, playing Augustine tennis shoes. I mean, these guys didn't even play golf, but the opportunity to play there.

So there's a bunch of Georgia Tech members, or they got some members to play, you know, with the coach. You have to play with a member. So somehow or another, I scraped around the 78 there. Wow. And all the other times I played, it was, I think, had one. 79 one time, but after that it was 80s or worse. Is there somebody that comes to mind as like the most memorable person that you ever played around a golf with? Oh, I don't have a particular favorite.

I've played a lot of golf with my son, Steve Jr. He coached with me, really at Florida and South Carolina all those years. And he was up there my two years with Washington. and by the way, Kevin, you know, I've coached three pro teams. A lot of people look at me and say, man, you weren't worth a damn in the pros for you. I said, well, wait a minute now. You ever heard of the Tampa Bay Bannett? We were 35 and 19.

Right. And in the Spring League, the Orlando Apollo, it only lasted eight games. But we were 7 and 1, and we were leading the league when it folded up. So anyway, only one of the three did I not do very well. there's a lot of reasons for it, but it's the only head job I've ever had where I was not actually in charge of the team. But I didn't do a very good job either, so it was time to get out of there. Well, I think many of us probably have a pretty good idea of why it didn't work out here real well. Before we get to that, I was curious, like, what would NIL and the transfer portal be like for you right now if you were still coaching in college?

It would be absolutely no fun, but you've got to jump in there to compete. So all these scores are setting up some kind of collectibles or some kind of... We opened one up down here called Gators Victorious. And our football team's gone six and seven in the last two years. I don't know if you know that, Kevin, but that's... Florida Gators used to be up there fighting for SEC championships most years. So we've got a way to go to get back to the top of college football. And I guess you've got to get in there and start passing out money.

Now, a lot of schools have passed out a bunch of money and not done very well. Texas A&M and Miami come to mind. But obviously, I think, did very well. And the other schools that are passing out a lot of money seem to do very well. Yeah, and you wonder, you know, with all of that money being passed around, especially when players take the money and then a year later, they transfer. And that's not the best investment how long this will last. By the way, speaking of the Gators, you know, the draft is three weeks away.

What do you think of Anthony Richardson as a quarterback prospect? Yeah, I was talking to somebody the other day. He was talking about who would you love to have coached? And I said, I would have loved to have coached Anthony Richardson. And, I mean, he is a talented player. We all know that. And yet the last two years here in Florida, we've gone six and seven. So the victories have not equalled out to his talent for whatever reason.

But he can make all the throws. He can run. He can do it all. So if they've got a real good offensive quarterback coach, coordinator, wherever he goes, maybe they can get that talent out of Anthony. I think he's going to be a high first-round pick, so it's going to be interesting to see how it all works out. So do people call you, Coach?

Do they call you about an Anthony Richardson knowing how close you are to the Florida situation? Do you get calls from NFL, GM, scouts, et cetera? Oh, no, no. I'm not that close. I'm not that close. I sit up an athletic director's box and watch the games, and that's about it. But no, I have no influence on Florida football or really any of the sports. I just try to be a good supporter and do whatever I can to say good things about the Gator Athletics.

All right. So let's talk a little bit about your time in Washington because, you know, over the years, we've talked a lot about you. They were two, believe it or not, even though the results were, you know, in 2002-7 and 9. and then your famous line after the 2003 season, 5 and 11, not too good, which is one of these quotes from you that we've played over the years. A lot of your quotes, you know that. You get quoted so many times in all of the different places you've played.

But let's talk about the two years here. Do you regret that this was the NFL job that you took? Oh, well, the way I look at it, by taking that one, let's see, one, two, three, four years later, I got to South Carolina job, okay? So if I had gone somewhere else, I don't know how it would have turned out, but I don't want to try to make a whole bunch of excuses. But obviously, I thought we were going to get a general manager and a guy I could work with and if that and the other, but all of that didn't work out.

and when I couldn't choose the quarterback for the second year, I knew my butt needed to get out of there. So that's about all I need to see. Was the general manager that Dan had promised? Was that Bobby Beatherd? Bobby Bethard's name was brought up. You're exactly right. And I thought it was going to happen,

but it didn't happen after I signed on. Right. Yeah, so you get here in 2000, to what do you remember about when you got here? You know, the quarterback stuff in year two, I remember some of my memories are Osaka is definitely

a memory for me, but I remember you were bringing in a lot of your college players from Florida. If you had to do it over again here, would you have relied so much on some of those ex-gators? Well, I felt like they were just as good a player, knew our system,

as the ones we had here. So I guess it was sort of natural to do that. But it probably overall was not a good idea to have that many. So they didn't last very, all of them didn't last very long. I can assure you that. Because I wasn't in charge of the cuts either.

So I'm good buddies with all those guys now. Yeah, I'm sure you are. But that's okay. That's, you know, I didn't do a very good job, and I'm not trying to make any excuses. But it gave me an opportunity

to go to South Carolina. Carolina, a place that had not had much success, and we had some good years. I wish we'd won one SEC title, but we did not do that. But we had, you know, three lead-win seasons, so we did some good things. Oh, you had some incredible seasons at South Carolina. I mean, there was that stretch of 2011 through 2013 where you won 33 some odd games, and you were in contention in the SEC, in the SEC East. Those teams, I got to tell you, were a lot of fun to watch.

And I don't know if you understand this, but I think a lot of us here not only followed you, you know, after you left in your career in South Carolina, but were rooting like hell for you. And I don't know if you understand that you had a lot of fans here, and a lot of us understood why it didn't work out for you. And basically everybody else that has been here as a head coach. Do you have that sense that you made, that you actually created a lot of fans in your two? As I travel around, they've always been pretty nice to me. Washington fans, when I run across some here and the other, yeah, they're fine. There was no issue with the coach and the fans, I don't think.

No. And so the issue was with Dan, and I want to ask this specific question. How quickly after you got here did you realize that his involvement would be a problem? Well, Kevin, I don't want to get in all that. Like I said, you know, I thought Bobby Beth was going to be here, but for whatever reason, he never showed up. And so that's the way it turned out. And everybody knows that Dan Snyder was the general manager, and, you know, he wanted to be very active. where he was, and I don't know, it just didn't work out. I didn't do a very good job either, though.

So blame me. I'll take all the blame. No, and I think everybody appreciates that and hears you when you're saying that. And at the same time, you know, here we are on the verge here in D.C. of a dream kind of coming true for those of us that grew up and rooted for, you know, the Redskins, you know, and the Joe Gibbs' glory years. and trying to recapture that, you know, so many times and it's never worked. You're, I'm sure, very familiar that Dan's on the verge, we believe, of selling the team. Did you ever think we would see that day? Well, I don't think it was his decision, was it?

I don't know if the commissioner or the other owners have told him to do it. Maybe they've hinted at it, but I don't know all the details. But it seems like that's what the league wants to happen appears. Look, I sense your reluctance, and I understand that I totally respect that, that you don't want to go down the path of discussing that. So let me ask you this. What are your good memories from Washington?

You know, we won some games there early. In fact, we went to Tokyo, or not Tokyo, but what was that other? Osaka. Osaka and the preseason. Yeah, I've won that preseason game. Mucci, the coach there, he said it's the first time he'd ever had an exhibition preseason game that the other team ran the score up on it.

We were at 31 to 7 with about a minute and a half left, and we had fourth and one. At about, oh, they're 30 or so. And one of the assistant coaches said, Coach, go ahead and tow it in the end zone. I said, oh, we don't be sure. I said, okay, told the damn thing. So I think our quarterback went back through another touchdown pass with about a minute lap. So Mitch wasn't real happy about it, but they beat us during the regular season.

They played their varsity the whole game in the regular season. They didn't play their varsity in that preseason game. You know, this is a very legendary game for us over the years. discussing it because, you know, we thought here we go. It's the fun and gun. And you're rolling up 38 and 400 yards of offense in a preseason game. I am curious because you had played in the NFL obviously and you had coached in the USFL. Did you think that what happened in the first preseason of the game was actually something that was translatable to the regular season? Were you confident after that game.

Well, we felt we would do all right, but we also understood that the other teams, they don't play their starting defensive linemen very much, or even many of their starting defensive guys. So our free agent guys and our young guys, we can play against the other teams' free agents and young guys. We had a system that was pretty easy to put in within two or three weeks. But when the big gas came on, and it was hard to block those big guys, so it was a little bit different story, obviously. Yeah.

The next season, by the way, 2003, you guys won that Thursday night NFL opener against the Jets, you know, on a field goal, you know, a late field goal by John Hall, who kicked you guys to a victory. Then you beat Atlanta. And then I'll never forget this, and I wonder what your memories are of it. we had basically one of the worst kind of remnants of a hurricane storm that came through here, the week leading up to the Giants game, and you guys lost a game in which I think it was hard to prepare for. That week, you lost to the Giants in overtime, but you beat the Patriots the following week. You had a chance to start four and one. You started three in one that year.

What do you remember about that start? And by the way, that week of kind of that hurricane remnant and then the win over Belichick. Yeah, every now and I tell people I'm one and oh against Belichick now. They tell me he's the greatest of all time. But, yeah, that wasn't interesting. What was that, 17, 14, or 20? 24, 20. Which one?

The Belichick. Yeah, the Belichick. Yeah, you guys beat him 20 to 17. 20 to 17. Yeah. And we actually, Brady came in and played that one, I think, and did not. We stopped him with, they had balls a minute or so left. and somehow we stopped them.

We stopped them and won that game. After that, I think they went on that win streak, didn't they? You were the last team to beat him. They went on and won that Super Bowl over Carolina that year, and your win over them. Yeah, they won the rest of them just about. Yeah, exactly. So, again, I understand you don't want to go down some of the negative spot.

But any other, you know, positive, memories of those two years in D.C. The players, the area. I know you didn't love the weather here, not when it turned cold, right? We didn't have any terribly cold games. The coldness were, we went up to the New York Jots about the last game the season. That was a cold one up there at Green Bay. That was probably 30 degrees. It wasn't real severe. But we didn't have any, I don't think, any real terrible weather. there in D.C. Right.

You know, I was looking through the two seasons that you were here, and we talked about the Belichick game in 2002. You were the last team to beat New England that year. They went on to win the Super Bowl. The 2003 season, even though it was a 5-11 season, 12 of the 16 games coach that you coached that year were decided by a touchdown or less. There were so many exciting games that year.

Other than, you know, the Belichick game that we, already discussed, you know, was there a game in either one of the two seasons that really was memorable for you? Yeah, we lost our share of the close ones. And in the NFL, you probably win. Got to win, oh, 75% of your close ones to really have a good record. We didn't quite win that high percentage. But anyway, I'm looking forward to going to the D.C. touchdown club thing tomorrow night.

they actually honored me and my wife back when I was there with Washington. They had a dinner that they honored the coach's wife, which I thought pretty neat, back in those days. You don't see many of those. But anyway, she'll be with me also. That's awesome. And looking forward to seeing all the guys that are up that way. I know that top high school player that signed with South Carolina.

What's his name again? Yeah. He's going to be honored. Right. So, yeah, look, I can't say for his name right now either, but looking forward to seeing him there. Heisman Trophy winner, National Championship Coach, and a legend for football fans in so many different spots.

I appreciate the time. It's good to hear your voice. I hope you're healthy and well, and enjoy tomorrow night. Okay, Kevin. Good talking with you. All right. See you. The headball coach, boys and girls. I love Spurrier.

You know, that's the first chance I've ever had to interview Spurrier. I have reached out many times in the past, not in recent years, but when it was announced that he was going to be honored at the touchdown club, we were able to get him. Thanks to Steve Beck and thanks to Josh Barr. Look, I get it. He's reluctant to go down the path of talking about his two years here. That's obvious.

The Osaka stuff I loved. I had a lot more written down here in terms of trying to get to some of the more detailed stuff from those years. But this wasn't what he wanted to do. He has moved on from that. Very clear, by the way, on making sure we all understood that the only losing season he's ever had was here. the only blip on his overall resume and the only pro job in which he ever lost going back to the Tampa Bay Bandits where he coached in the 80s in the USFL and the Orlando. I don't even know what the name of the team.

Did he say the apostles, the Orlando apostles of whatever league that was? But this was not a great experience for him. And it just sounded like he didn't want to relive much of it. And I understand that and actually respect the fact that he didn't want to go. you know, scorched earth on Snyder. Not that I was looking for that, but, you know, it just seemed like, as I look at the rest of the questions that I had for him, we weren't going to get that far.

But anyway, that was a joy, actually. Always been a fan of Spurrier, and so I appreciate that a lot. All right. Up next, John Kime will jump on with us right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show is presented by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.ag or MyBooky.com. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and MyBooky will do something most books don't allow you to do,

which is cash in and cash out quickly. All you have to do is wager your deposit amount one time and you're eligible to cash out. Perfect for the NBA playoffs, which got underway last night. By the way, I gave out two. winners, both of the underdogs, covered. I like Chicago tonight, by the way, plus the points. But go to my bookie.ag. You have to use my promo code, Kevin D.C., to get the benefit that they're offering, which is the ability to cash out quickly. Joining me on the podcast right now, I'm actually so glad that John Kime is jumping on with me right now because I just had Steve Spurrier on the

podcast. He's in town for the D.C. Touchdown Awards dinner tomorrow night. And you covered Spurrier, and you've had many conversations with Spurrier over the years. And I have to tell you that, you know, I've always loved Spurrier. I've always been a fan of Spurrier. I loved watching and rooted for the South Carolina teams after he left here, wanted him to do well. But there was a definite reluctance, John, for him to go down. memory lane and talk about his two years here, which I totally respect. He doesn't want, he said enough, but really tried not to say much. And he was uncomfortable. Like he didn't want to go down that path. But you covered Spurrier. Look, I enjoyed this 17, 18 minutes,

whatever it is I just did with him. But it was interesting. But I know you've talked to him, you know, in the past. And I don't know how recently, but it was interesting. Well, he's interesting, and I also think part of it for him is it's the one blip on his coaching resume, where he does not have, where he did not have success, and it was bad. I mean, you could tell I like Spurrier. Like, I thought he was a good person, and I thought he was as honest as you could be in this profession. So I like that about him. He was entertaining, but I also remember being at a dinner party in early,

after two games, two or three games in his first year. And somebody at the party asking like, well, how's it going to go? I said, it's going to be a disaster. He's like, really? You can tell that after three games? Like, yes, it was just so obvious that he was not cut out to coaching the NFL or not cut out to coach the NFL in Washington, where you had Vinic Serrato and the top football guy and his team owned by Dan Snyder. It was not a good combination. I know like Ron Wolf loved him, and I think even after he failed here, I remember seeing something from Ron Wolf where he said he would have, maybe I even talked to him about it, that he said he would have hired him even after this experience because he still felt he could coach in the NFL.

And if you had the right support system, he did not have that here. But he was, my gosh, Kevin, like, you know, there are a lot of times every once in a while even my podcast or on other shows. But I enjoy talk. I enjoy. I think it's just one spurious story leads to another. Yes. And it just, like, to highlight what, like, how did this guy, I remember, I remember talking to one of the assistant coaches when the news came over that he had resigned.

And he was on the golf course when he resigned. Right. Well, at least when the resignation letter came through. Right. And I was talking to the coach, and I was like, I said, I've got to be honest. I said, I don't know after being around him. how did this guy succeed in college? And the coach said, I was just asking my wife,

I was telling my wife the same thing. But you know that it's a different thing in college, but it was more, you know, it's just, you know, it was, gosh, there's so much. Like, I don't even know where to start, but, you know, the quarterback she saw could win here and, you know, Danny Wharfall and, you know, Shane Matthews and guys like that, like, it just, you know,

They drafted Patrick Ramsey. He never met Patrick Ramsey before they drafted. I know. And that's not his fault, but that's the support system that failed him. So, you know, I think if, you know, I mean, there were, I'm going to just, I'm sorry, I'm but it's like I said, once you start going down the road, there was one time where back in the day, the press used to be, the media used to be inside the building. And so you'd walk in, it's the first room to the right.

There were cubicles in there. There's a little bathroom in there, a little kitchenette, and then your TV set up. So we're there for the draft. And again, again, Spurrier was a good guy to talk to, like, a genuinely good guy. And but, but, like, we're sitting there watching the draft, and he's, like, poking his head in talking to us. He looks up at the TV, says, oh, we're on the clock. I better go. He wasn't in the draft room when this is going on.

And so, like, it's things like that where if you see that enough when you say, like, you're just not cut out for the NFL. In college, you could recruit well and get mismatches. And then your offense really worked because it exploited mismatches. But in the NFL, it was, I don't think he ever stood. They played Pittsburgh after the Osaka game. So they have this, you know, they score a lot of points in Osaka, but most of it was like in the third and the fourth quarter, so not with the starters.

So the starters played, they play Pittsburgh the next week. at FedEx, and the starters were bad. But the third and fourth stringers had a rally in the fourth quarter to win the game. Well, in the press conference, all the questions are about, you know, hey, your starters, are you concerned. He's like, he snapped, eventually snapped and said, we just came back with this great comeback to win the game, and all you guys are doing is talking about the first quarter. I don't think he understood some of this stuff, and that's where the hard part was in. So that's a long answer, and I got more.

No, well, part of the discussion was about Osaka. And, you know, he said, well, you know, they played the varsity. They were playing the junior varsity. And we got the varsity in the regular season. And because I kind of asked him if, you know, he knew that the first preseason game was going to be different. You know, remember, they played San Francisco that year in like week three and lost 20 to 10. And as he said, you know, well, they played the varsity in that game. No, there was clearly not an understanding of how it worked.

You know, through his reluctance to say much about his time here, I think, and I'm going to have to go back and listen to this again, and everybody that's listening to you with me right now, just listen to Spurrier. But there was some clear, you know, indication of, look, he thought he was getting into something that turned out to be much. different. He thought Bobby Bethard was going to be the general manager. And Dan, and it turned out that, you know, Dan was essentially the chief personnel decision maker. And this isn't what he signed up for.

But, you know, he did this thing where he said part of the, you know, I don't want to pass the buck because some of the blame falls on me too and I didn't get it done. But he talked about, it's funny, you know, he talked about, look, as a professional coach, you know, I won in Tampa Bay. in the USFL and I won with the Orlando apostles in whatever league that was. I mean, there's still, he is, he's a competitor at his core. And he wants people, you know, to know what a great coach he was, despite the one blip on his coaching record, which was the two years here. And I, listen, yeah.

I'm sorry, I mean to. No, go ahead. but like how many coaches, no coach, hired by Dan Snyder, finished with the winning winner. Exactly, I pointed that out. We know why it didn't work here for him. Right. And that's, now I will say, like, he needed, where I felt there was going to be some problems. And I think, like, you can always get a good feel on the initial press conference.

What a coach, what it's going to be like. Like, for example, when Marty Schottnheimer came here. And I just remember him talking about how, like, he knew the roster. He knew, like, they've got these two tackles. You can build around the tackles. And he's talking about these guys they have. And then you just feel like, you know, I mean, even like, if you played any level of football at the interview, like, shit, I'm going to play. I want to play for this guy because you just felt that passion that he had.

With Gibbs, you felt the aura. And like, wow, this is why this guy is this. With Spurrier gets in there. He didn't know anybody on the roster. It was just like, I want to come see if my offense can work. but he didn't know anybody. Well, he's not in jail, is he? He's not in jail, is he?

Who was that? Why am I blanking on him? Oh, no, I can't remember that one. It was the Oakland. Oh, Russell, Russell. Something Russell? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Jamarcus Russell.

It was a defense, it was an offensive or a defensive lineman. Whatever. Daryl Russell. Was it Daryl Russell? Oh, yeah, I think I would have to double check. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but like there were times in the draft press conferences.

It was Darrell Russell, by the way. It was Darrell Russell. By the way, he passed away in 2005 just two years after playing in Washington. But I forgot about that. But what happened with Spruyer, we'd be in the press conference after the draft, and he'd have to like, after they'd make a pick, they'd bring out the coach to talk to us. And after each pick. And they remember they drafted like Bobby Roy, Robert Royal, the tight end.

And, like, he would, in order to inform us about him, like, he was learning about him as we did. Right. He would read off the guy's stats and, like, oh, Bobby Royal, well, he only had so many chances up, must not be much of a pass catcher. Yeah, I remember that. You not know this. Yeah. Yeah, and so it was like that with everybody.

And that's where a strong GM could have said, like, either you don't put them out there for that, and don't embarrass it because that, that looks bad, or you, you, put him in a position where it's like, Steve, you've got to know more of that this. And you know what I mean? And just guide him better. And that's something that just didn't happen here. And you knew that he was done here after they cut. It was Kenny Watson and Danny Wharf on.

Once they cut him, you could see his soul just departed. Yeah. And that was early in the second year. And that was it. And you knew that would be the last year. Yeah. I was like, he was a good guy. The other problem that he had is he hired too many college coaches who didn't know what they were doing.

Right. Plus, he brought in a lot of his gators, you know, and I asked him about that, and do you regret that? And he said, well, probably in hindsight, I can't remember specifically. I'm paraphrasing, but, you know, they knew the system, the whole thing. But remember, I mean, see, there was a bunch of stuff that I wanted to get to that I just, I couldn't because he just, it was very clear that this was the last thing that, for whatever reason, he expected to talk about or wanted to talk about. So I guess at the end of the day, you know, there was only so much, you know, what's the saying? Blood you're going to get from a stone. But whatever.

Right. When Marty was run out of here, it was because, and Dan admitted this, he wasn't having enough fun. He wanted to be involved. And so, you know, he hired a coach. He gave him a boatload of money. And he really was dishonest with Spreier about. Bobby Betherd because really at the end of the day, Snyder didn't want Betherd here. You know, I remember talking to Bobby about this and all of the times that we had Bobby on the show.

And Bobby said, yeah, you know, we were close, but it wasn't really a place for me. I mean, you know, specifically saying, yeah, that they, it was not somebody that he wanted to work for. And Dan, and Dan didn't really, you know, it was more of a press release to get people excited about maybe Bobby Betherd, but he didn't want Bobby. here. He wanted to be involved. Right. And the other thing with Bobby that I remember, because I remember talking to him at that time, and, you know, it's funny because I asked him this several years later, he said, no, it wasn't really about that, but I remember you

telling me this, that, now, this wasn't necessarily the reason that he didn't turn it down because I think there were other factors. But one of it, he felt like Dan wanted more of someone to be, you know, his go-out buddy versus he's like, I just want to do my job and go home. And you know what I mean? And so he didn't want to do all the other stuff. And now, I don't know that that was the main reason. I don't think it was the main reason, but it was something that he brought up to me.

And, you know, but I think there are other factors involved with money and some of the other stuff. Yeah. He always said to me, he always said to me, you know, ultimately I considered it, but it was really not a situation that I thought was conducive for me to be successful. And that's essentially what it was, yeah. Yeah. But it would have helped Spirier a ton because, just because, you know, again, Ron Wolf, even after it, said that's still a guy I would hire

because he just felt he was a really good offensive mind. But, you know, but then, you'd hear these stories from Rex Grossman when he was at Florida. and he would say, like, he said there was one time that there at Florida spring practice, and Spurrier comes, they would get on the field just getting ready for practice, and the golf course was nearby. And Spurier comes zipping over on a golf cart. Boys are cancer practice today, and he just zips off on the golf cart, and that was it. So, but is that Florida, you can do that?

And, you know, there would be times where I don't, I don't, like, he would always say, like, I don't understand when these guys work all these 90-hour weeks. Remember, he kind of pissed off Jim Hazlitt about that. Like, you know, Hazard is doing this, and Hazlitt's doing this, and they're not winning. And it's, you know, and I always, like, I kind of always welcome that because I think sometimes you, you know, with coaches, there is a, this guy's working a hundred hour a week, well, I'm going to work 100 one. And it becomes something that it doesn't need to be, you know, is there, you know, paralysis by

analysis almost, or, you know what I'm saying? Well, remember Spurrier coach from inside when it was too cold and it was sleeting one day. Yeah, well, that was, that was, that was, Trey Johnson talked about that. Yeah. That they were going outside. And he was like, get back in, get back in. I don't know what this is. And Marvin Lewis said, they told him, get the hell out, get out there.

Get your asses out there. And by, but yeah, but with, you know, there was just, there was just a lot with him. We'd be, we'd be sitting in the press room, and it would be, like six or seven on Thursday, he's going to play nine, and we're sitting there working. I'm like, what's wrong with this? Oh, well, I mean, there was, like I said, yeah, there was the story of, you know, they were down, was it Jacksonville, I think, and he was at the pool just, you know, a few hours before they were going to leave on the team bus for like a four o'clock game, and he's out the pool, you know, lounging around. Yeah, look, that last season, and I didn't, I didn't bring

this up. I had several things on my list to get to. You know, it was clear that it was probably best to bail on him. But I remember that final game against the Cowboys in 2003, the final home game when it was sleeting and it was 34 degrees. And he was dressed like a, you know, like he was bundled up like he was an escimo over on the bench with what's his face, you know, who he had turned over play calling to, the guy that ended up being the coach for the Browns, you know, during that 0-0-16 season.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing, the other thing with him, why am I blanking on his name? Hugh Jackson, Hugh Jackson. Oh, remember he turned to, he said, oh, Hugh's going to call plays. Well, I think that was Hugh going to the front office saying, let me call the play.

Because there were a couple games where he did that. And he kind of wrestled that, and they gave him the chance that they let him do that. But there were, if you remember, too, there was a game in Seattle that they won where, like, Kenny Watson and someone else both had over a hundred. yards. And, but he was like, they won the game. It was like 14 to 6, 14 to 9, something like that. And they only scored 14, but he was almost despondent.

Dispondent. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And so then the next week they're playing in Jacksonville, the Jaguars have like one of the worst run defenses in the NFL. They just had a game with that. Two guys run for over 100 yards.

I remember this. And they threw the ball 50 times. Do you remember what he said? Do you remember what he said after the game? It was a beautiful night to pitch in California. He said, he said, I noticed all day long teams putting up big yards through the air around the league. Because wasn't that a, although it was a late afternoon game, and he said all the 1 o'clock games, you know, there's lots of big yardage. He said, it looked like a nice, nice night to pitch and catch.

Good day. Yep, yep, yep. I mean, it was, he was. And they got crunched in that game. They got killed. And it wasn't, they didn't throw because they were behind. They threw to open the game. He wanted to throw the ball and prove that his offense could work.

That's what it was. Yeah. I don't know who it was if it was Werfel or Matthews. It was one of the two. I can't remember who was quarterbacking, but it was one of his guys. I think it was Matthews in that game, but yeah, it was one of his guys. And it was, yeah, what a joy. What a joy.

All right. Let's talk some football. Where are you on the quarterback situation? Sam Hal, Jacoby, Berset, and. And how this plays out over the next several months into training camp? I think it's Sam Howell's job to lose. But I think with Jacobi Bresset, there's someone there that can threaten him. So if you're not doing well, then I think it becomes a real competition.

But I think if Sam Howell goes in the spring and the summer, and he's showing really good progress the way they hope and building off that last game, then I don't think you're going to have. Like, it's not going to be a, okay, today, Howell gets the first team reps and Bresset gets the first team reps next day. To me, that's a real competition. Or somehow alternating. I do think that they want how to win a job

because of what he could represent for them, which is a young quarterback they could build around. Whereas if you get Bresset, you're not building around a guy. You're now, you know, if he doesn't beat out Jacoby Bucet. Here's the other thing. What if Jacoby Bucet looks? really good. I don't know. I mean, he did a good year last year, but, you know, he's got a track record. So if you don't beat him out, where is the state of this franchise? Because that's the most

important position. And how does that look to a new owner? Like, you could go 9 and 8 with Jacoby percent, but that doesn't look as good as 10 and 7 with Sam Howe. You know what I mean? And so, but I do think they want Howl to win the job or they would, you know, that's the, so if he goes in there and he's looking good, it's going to be his job. I don't think there's going to be a competition, but if he starts to falter, they have a really good option. Then I think then you start to see some pressure put on for that job. But I go in there thinking that it's a house job to lose. But as they say, he still has to earn it, which is true.

But, you know, I don't think, I think if he's looking good, then that's it. I know, but I'm sensing from you, and maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, that you actually kind of agree with me and Tom, and that is, that it actually is more of a competition than some people believe it will be, that if Jacoby Brissette clearly shows he's ready and he's ready to run their offense, and they have a good team around him, and they want to win this year, and they want to win games, that it's not impossible at all that Jacoby Brissette emerges as the starter by opening day. I don't think that would be impossible at all, but I do think that HAL has to,

in that case will not be showing the progress they would have hoped. You know, unless Jacoby Busset just looks like outstanding, it's like, oh my God, this guy looks phenomenal. You know, something like that. Short of that, I do think it's on how to lose it. But, yeah, what I have felt, too, is, you know, they wanted to bring back to our Heineke. And Heineke was willing to come back.

It just didn't work out. But this is a much tougher guy for how, to beat out. Like, I think the leash is shorter with Jacoby Preset behind him than it would have been with Heineke. Because they know what Heineke can do in this, you know, here. And Bucson has a track record, too, but also I think Bresett's track record probably fits well with these guys because he doesn't turn the ball over. And with the defense that they hope to have in a running game and they do feel like they have enough skill guys, like he could work pretty well. So they have a really good option if Howl's struggles. And the other part, Kevin, is, you know,

What if, you know, players, like Ron tends to listen to them enough where if Bresset is looking really good and how he's not picking it up? Right. Those guys, you know, he's going to listen to those guys. Yeah. And so I think so I absolutely see a scenario where Bresset can win the job, but I do think they go in, their preference would be to see how he'll win it because it would mean that he has progressed. And he does have to beat out a better player now. You know, it's funny, we've had three straight coaches here, in Mike, in Jay, and in Ron, who have all said at one point, you can't fool the players. And if you try to, you are lost. And so if you put somebody out there at that position at quarterback that the rest of the team believes doesn't give you nearly the chance to win that another guy does, you can lose the team. Ron said it with Dwayne Haskins early in his. his rookie season. By the way, you know, for those that don't know this, and I think many do,

John grew up in Ohio. He's a Browns. He's a Cleveland Indian slash Guardians, Ohio State, massive Ohio State fan. So you watched Brissette a little bit more, you know, closely than a lot of us. I know you're covering a team. You're covering a team. But it's hard for me to watch them. Yeah, but you pay attention to that. Right. And I hear, let me say this, I hear from my son who watches it all religiously. So what I knew is that he played well, and the offense was better under him, but it wasn't under Deshaun Watson for a few reasons,

but that he did play well. It was the defense that let him down, not the quarterback. And they didn't have, now what they had is a really good run game, but they didn't have the weapons that these guys do. So, you know, so I think, like, it's not inconceivable that that guy is, It wouldn't shock me at all if he ends up to be the starter just because I think he's a good option. And if How is not ready, then you have this option. But I think for going forward, if you're a new owner, you know, how would you, and this is what you have.

I can't look at. How do you process that? Like if you're Josh Harris, let's say. Yeah, let's say that. Let's say. And, you know, and it's Jacoby Perci, and it's like, okay, you got this roster. but are you guys the ones to be able to find the next quarterback? You know what I mean?

And with the set, what is the feeling with him? And I don't, you know, I don't know. So I think I just wonder how all that plays out. Whereas the young quarterback, you can do a lot more with the roster going forward. Yeah. It's actually a good segue for me. Go ahead. Were you going to finish the thought?

No, no, no. I really didn't have much else. But it, you know, it will be interesting because how does. I think with Heineke, again, I think, you know, Taylor was fine being his backup. And unless Howell looked really bad, he would have been the starter. With Brissette, I think he has to look good to be the starter. So the, I did this on radio this morning. And it's simply put, it's like, what kind of season does Ron Rivera have to have to be the head coach and be in his current role?

You know, coach-centric Ron in 20-24. I'll give you my answer and then I want yours. No, I want your answer first and then I'll give you mine. What's your answer as to what kind of season? Is there a situation where Ron, by the way, John, talking about Snyder earlier with Spurrier and the whole thing, remember when Dan acquired the team, Norv Turner was the coach, it was too late to change that, even though he tried to undo the Brad Johnson trade.

And then Norv went out and won 10 games. won the division, won a playoff game over Detroit, lost a divisional round game at Tampa by one point nearly, was there in the NFC championship game against the greatest show on turf to St. Louis Rams, and Norv was brought back for 2000, and that was with an owner who you know wanted to put his stamp on everything at 34 years old once he bought the team. So do you think it's possible, Ron, could be back for a fifth year, his fifth contract year? And if so, what does he have to do in 2023 to make that happen? And, you know, this is without, like, talking to enough people in a certain group to know exactly what do they, like, what do they think? But in talking to you, you're talking about the Josh Harris group?

Let's say, let's say it's Josh Harris. And, you know, and right now, again, that's really the main name. But, like, let's say, let's say, let's for sake of this. but he has a track record of hiring really good people in certain jobs. And, like, Darrell Morris, I mean, even, you know, Doc Rivers is a good NBA coach. I mean, people can, I think people, some people might argue that, but he is. I mean, he's got a title. So how is the guy like that going to process?

If you go nine and eight, I don't think that's going to cut it, you know, and I think, because I think you're also going to have to say, like, what do you to do to generate the enthusiasm here, is it to bring, you know, to continue along this path? To me, I think you'd have to win, I'd say 10 games, well, let's say you win 9, but how it looks really good. And the team is playing really well at the end, and you go in there and you win a playoff game, and there's actually like, oh my gosh, they actually might be pretty good down the the road. Maybe something like that, but I think it's going to require, you know, off the top of my head, I would say you win 10 games and you win a playoff game. And you've got to show

the real progress with this roster. And like, it has to be where the roster, like, okay, you've got a lot of good young draft picks who are paying off. And they've really hit on these guys. Like, do you really want to change? That's what I think it's going to have to take. But I think some of that is I think I'd say that even if Dan Snyder were still the owner, I would probably say something like that. Because I think, you know, it's four years now.

And we heard a lot about year three needing to show certain things. And shoot, they were, you know, I mean, I'd say they're close in some games, but they're close that they could have lost, too. So that's up even doubt. You are what you are, and you're 8, 8 and 1. But year 4, you can't have the 8 or 9 wins. I think you've got to go beyond that

to justify in a new owner's mind who didn't hire you, and he went through this in Carolina with Tepper. Right. You know, they were 5 and 7, and he got rid of them, because the new owner is going to want to generate their excitement, And I think, like, there's no attachment to anybody in this group, anybody. So I think they all need to have a good year because, you know, I think your new owner, you pay $6 billion or whatever it's going to be.

You're going to want to get your people in place unless they make it a no-brainer for you. Like, okay, that's, this is, you know, I also think, Kevin, I think some of it's going to depend on, how does Ron communicate his message to them the minute that this is over? And when he has his first meeting with him, how does it communicate their vision for the future? And then how does it play out? Because if he's saying, if what he tells them is exactly how it plays out during the season, they might say, okay, let's, you know, going in the right direction, see where it's headed. But I think so there's a lot of things to it.

But I would think 10 in a playoff win. What about you? Yeah, mediocre minds think alike. exactly my answer. I said it's 10 plus wins. It's a playoff win and it's a quarterback who is ascending and really that quarterback more likely than that has to be Sam Hal. And then I think, you know, if you're if you're the new owner, you look at it and you say, well, I mean, am I going to bail? Like I was looking at Mike Malarkey won a playoff game in Tennessee and then got fired, you know, after nine and seven season. I don't think like a nine and eight season where

there are a seven seed. You know, I think that that's a whole different dynamic. I think like 10-11 wins, even if you don't win the division, you are contending for it. The worst case, you're like a five-seed and, you know, you win against the four-seed on the road and then you lose to the one seed. And wow, we just, you know, we had a season. And by the way, we've got a young quarterback who we now know for sure we can believe in moving forward. I think it's possible. But I also have injected this into the conversation, John, in recent weeks with Tommy and on radio.

And I did it with Michael Phillips yesterday, I think. I've had this sense for a while now, but definitely in this off season, that Ron is less engaged than ever. You know, whether it was not knowing that his team could be eliminated from the playoffs against Cleveland to, you know, the waffling on answers with respect to the quarterback, with respect to Chase Young. to, you know, talking about Sadiq Charles and Chris Paul and forgetting that Andrew Norwell was even on the roster. I mean, a lot of those things could be in their own, you know, could be just, you know, innocent sort of mistakes. But I think there's a chance that Ron, at his age, with what he's been through since arriving to this shit show, hello, in Washington of a job that was much more challenging than even he thought it would be because of pandemic and personal kids. cancer and all of the investigations and all of this stuff, you know, most of this stuff having nothing to do with him, I think that, you know, it's very possible that he understands the likelihood

that this is his last year and he's okay with it. And in fact, I think there's a chance that, you know, not that he would resign if there was a chance that he would get that fifth year of money, but that if he was going to be fired that somehow, you know, he'd be okay with it at the end of next year. I think part of that could be in play. Look, I thought last year that if it didn't work out this in 2022, that there was a chance he may call it quits at the end of 2022. But, you know, they were in contention. They had a chance to make the postseason. They went eight, eight, and one.

How convenient that they won that they won that. final game for him not to have a losing season. So I think some of that's in play in all of this, too. What do you think? I don't know. What I know is that in Carolina, he was ready to retire within a few years. I think he had viewed that as like, okay, a couple of coaches there, a couple more years, and then you retire. So, you know, if he's still on that mindset, I think when he came here, I think it energized him to finish to get somewhere where he hadn't gotten with Carolina. So I don't know.

I haven't seen the disengaging part. I know, to be honest, I think DeAndrew Norwell thing, I think he was looking at 2023, and I think there's a good chance that Norwell won't be part of us. True. Of course. So I think that's part of it. I think the quarterback stuff, I think sometimes he trips up himself on some of that. But, you know, I know, like, I've known for a while what they've thought about Howell. So, like, they've been fairly consistent on him.

So I don't, but anyways, having said that, like, I don't know that I get that sense. It wouldn't shock me if, you know, I do think he wants to, I think he does feel good about what they're building here. I will say that. That's been always my sense. And I think, you know, he even told me, and this will be in a story I assume that he's like, if something happens to me, I feel like the roster is in a good place. So I think he's at peace with his situation because I think he feels good about where this could be going. You know, now so much of the key is on how, but the rest of the roster, I think they feel good about what they're starting to build. So, you know,

I think I think at peace with it maybe is accurate, just in the sense that you can't control it. So, you know, it's hard. You can't worry about it, right? I mean, so I don't know, like, you know, I don't get the sense that he's disengaged as much as maybe, I think, like you said, maybe he's at peace with what the situation is that, you know, you got to go ahead. I'll subscribe to that description. I'll subscribe to that description. I just, I guess the gut feel here is that if he's halfway realistic, the odds are. that this is going to be his last year coaching

and that he's not oblivious to that fact. No, and I will say along those lines, though, and that may be, you know, they haven't made moves to just win now. You know what I mean? Like the moves still are more, like if you really wanted to win now, you're going to trade,

you're going to cut a bunch of guys and create a bunch of space for Lamar Jackson. And you didn't do that. Yeah, but they may have done that, John, if the ownership situation was what it was. And they had the ability to do that. Well, they did, but there's a different discussion. I don't want to go down this road with it.

But with Lamar, it was always like, okay, you're going to have to, you're going to get rid of John out, probably. You're going to have, you can't sign to Ron Payne. You're going, you know, you're going to have to cut this guy. Yeah, no, no. I'm just saying that even if they're, take Lamar out of the equation, because there's a lot of reasons not to go after Lamar. A lot of reasons, which, by the way, I'd still think that they'd be a hell of a football team with Lamar,

but not at the price and et cetera. But I'm just saying that this wasn't an offseason where swinging big on a quarterback was even an option. That's my only point. No, it really wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't. So, you're right. And like last year, they swung big on a few guys. I mean, shoot.

They scoured the league. They called about Kirk Cousins. They called about Andrew Luck. They called, you know, Kyla Murray. Anybody that they thought might be free, they called on. I'm like, you're clearly not going to talk to Kansas City about Mahomes. You're not going to get him. But they knew, like, sort of the obvious guys, Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, you know, sort of the obvious guys, they called on everybody.

So, you know, and this year, and I will say, like, you know, with Howell, and it's funny because I think Howell, like, there are some guys who felt he's a second, third-round guy, and some guys who felt he's the fourth or fifth round guy. Here they felt he was a second, third round guy, and some scouts, apparently, I know talking to him over there, like some scouts have the first, so I know they liked him. But, you know, we still don't know where this guy's going to go. And I don't think their enthusiasm for him is fake.

I don't want to argue with you about this, but to me, because I want to get to something else here in a moment and something you said. but I'm not disputing that there were people in the organization that really like Sam Hal. I think Scott Turner liked Sam Howl a lot. But the bottom line is if they really, really thought that this was a first, second round guy, then they wouldn't have waited until the fifth round and drafted Percy Butler in the fourth round. And that's fair. That's fair.

Yeah. So you said something. And I think it's really interesting because I agree with you in that if Ron has that feeling like he's done some good things here and he's changed the culture here, I think he deserves credit for a lot of that. You know, one of the things that's been very obvious to me from the jump is Ron doesn't want to coach children. You know, he wants grownups who are committed. and I think that that's happened here. Like the culture of the locker room has changed, and I think he deserves a shitload of credit for that.

Yeah. Without question. But what's ironic about that is the whole conversation of, well, we're going to start doing something we've never done before, which is roster building. No, Ron, you've been roster building, and you've done a pretty good job of it. Like, you can actually be proud of kind of the job you've done

in roster building. This is part of the stuff that like if he got done with that press conference, I would have said, Ron, you were roster building two years ago after you missed on Matt Stafford. You did the roster building speech. And here's the reason you don't have to

talk about roster building for the first time as if it's like this new philosophy. You've been doing it and you've done it pretty well. You have a pretty good roster. Their roster is much better than when he took over. and, you know, I felt the drafts have been pretty good.

You know, they've missed on some free agent guys, which is why free agency is a bit of a hit or a miss, but they have drafted pretty well. And I think, you know, it probably would have been, I think if he had come out right away and said for the first time, you know, if he had said for the first time we have a young quarterback that we feel we can build around, that's different than just the roster building, right?

And I think, but I know, like, because you know, you probe a little bit deeper on it or just ask them more, like, what had you been? Why are you saying it now for the first time? Because now they have a quarterback that they think moving forward can be the guy for them. So now you can be around that guy. But that's a little bit different than for the first time to roster build, because you're right, they have been building that out. And he talked about roster building being the, you know, being the philosophy after they swung and missed on Matt Stafford. that, you know, remember it was a 180 degrees different with, you know, our philosophy is to build out this roster and then go get the quarterback. But my point is, is they've done a good job of roster building.

There's nothing to feel ashamed about. But there is. They were eight, eight, eight, and one, and God bless Taylor Heineke, they were eight, eight and one. Look at the quarterback. Their quarterback play has been subpar since Kirk Cousins last. And, you know, by and large, Alex Smith was a solid, but he was not playing at a level that they needed him to. He was starting to get there. And he was playing at a, like, if they had Alex Smith last year, that's a good team because of his style of play and what they needed from him.

But, you know, but the point is, like, they haven't had, under Rivera, especially they haven't had good quarterback play. And yet they did, they do have a roster. They was able to win the game. Yeah. Why is that they, you know, there's, like, you can look at their skill guys, and like, I like Brian Robinson, I think he's going to be solid for them. And you like the receivers and, and, and you like Forrest and Curl and you're in St. Juice. And yes. I mean, but here is where I'm, yeah, here's what I want to get to next, though. And that is, you know, one of the first, if not

the first big decision he made was to draft Chase Young at number two overall. Right. You know, by the way, I think I talked about this with Tommy yesterday on the pod, and I said, you know, really the first big decision he made was we're going to not do anything at quarterback in this first year in 2020. When I think if he had been more honest with himself or had said to the owner, I'm not a Dwayne Haskins fan. I don't believe that he's the answer. And we've got a chance with the number two overall pick in this draft where we made. never draft at this level again to address it. That needs to be the priority. You know, he could have, you know, if he felt that way,

he should have, that should have been his first move. But he, you know, whether he felt that way or not, the bottom line is it wasn't his first move, and it may have been his first mistake, clearly was in hindsight. But the big decision that he made in the draft was to draft Chase Young at number two overall. And here we are, Jeff Okuda, who is picked after him, one of your Ohio State guys just like Chase Young. Yeah.

Traded for a fifth rounder. Chase Young is, we're now less than a month away from the decision to pick up the fifth year option. We've already talked about, you know, he has changed the culture, and he wants to coach people who are committed in the way that he believes they should be committed. Do you think they're going to pick up the fifth year option on Chase Young? I don't. This is a guess. I don't think so, but that's just a guess.

And I think part of that, you know, is talked about health. You know, I know initially when it came out initially where they were like they weren't sure, there was talk about motivation. And I think also the word, other word you hear, is commitment and commitment to the program. And I think they want to see that, see all that. And so I think like they're willing to, I wouldn't shock me if they're willing to roll the dice to see what does he do this year and then make a decision going forward because you could always, if you, you know, they would like to sign Montess Sweat to an extension. Can you really keep

off for those guys on high numbers? I think it'd be hard. So, you know, I think, but if Chase Young goes out and has a really good year, then you're going to want to keep morale, but you can do it on the tag. So, you know, so I think they'll probably let a role. And also, because then you can see, again, the commitment level, and then you can see, you know, does the play improve? And while he was, you know, that was a really bad knee injury. And, you know, it was not just the ACO as a Patelor tendon and ruptured it. That made it a lot more difficult to come back from that. So where's he going to be at next year?

And so I think, you know, I think they're going to want to collect all as much information as possible on him. So, you know, and like I said, I don't, I haven't, I don't, I don't, know for sure which one way or another which way they're going to go. But I think I wouldn't be surprised if they don't pick it up and those are the reasons. Yeah, I think the health thing to me at this point is a stretch because Doc Andrews cleared him. Ron talked about how he was cleared. They all talked about how great they thought he looked physically in the games in which he played at the end of the year.

And then he brought it up again recently. I'm not suggesting that maybe there wasn't some setback or there is some concern after looking at the tape or looking at how it reacted or what happened in the offseason. I just personally think that the decision on the fifth year option has much more to do with something that isn't knee-related than knee-related. I think the commitment is the big thing. I think, and I do think, though, when you're talking about being healthy right now versus how does it, hold up over the next few years. So those are, you know, those are two different things when you have that injury, but also not just that, but your confidence level in the knee when you're on the field.

So I think from a health standpoint, it's as much mentally where it's as it is physically because you would hear that for a while last year, like as we got deeper in the season, that it was more about what can he, his confidence level in the knee. Right. And does that, you know, where is that next year? But I think, so I think from a health standpoint, that to me is part of it. Does he look more like the guy they drafted or is he still, or there's still some uncertainty? Because you would see the more he played, there were games where it's like, you could see like, okay, that looks more like him.

I thought it did look like him. I thought I saw the explosiveness that we saw in 2020. Well, listen, I mean, there were some, there were some rushes he had against him. Francisco and Trent Williams that were really good. Really good. And I think it was, yeah, and there were some backside plays where he got into the play. Chaste. Then there were a couple, yeah, yeah.

So I think, where did, how does that progress? But I do think it's as much commitment because I think they want to see that commitment level match what others are showing. And I think that that's probably a big thing. But, you know, productivity is always, you can see all that. Listen, Deshaun Jackson wasn't coming here in the off season, but guys, knew that when he showed up in the season that he was ready and he produced. So you can miss things in the off season if you produce. And if you're not, then people are going to

wonder like, okay, what's going on here? And so, but yeah, I think that's a big thing. You know, you just reminded me that it was the San Francisco game, which was, I think, his first game. I think it was the San Francisco game, right? And he was there, once he got comfortable, there was a play when they were, I think, you know, in the red zone and he chased down a back and he blocked a, he deflected a pass. And I mean, and I was like, wow, he's got that explosion. But yeah, I think. He's a talented guy. Yeah, I think it's clear, though, that look, even if we didn't know all of the tea leaves going back to the first half of 2021 would tell you that,

they have been disappointed with kind of everything related to, you know, all of the things they'd like to see in a leader and a committed player. So we'll see what happens. All right. All right. Last one. And I'm sure we'll talk before the draft. But right now, at 16 overall, give me a couple of names, a couple of positions.

What do you think they're going to do? what are you hearing? So I have been on the O-line thing from the start, and I still think that's where they go. Maybe a guy like Darnell Wright, he has that quote-unquote position versatility because he can play guard, he can play either tackles. He's played both tackles, right? Didn't he play both tackles in Tennessee? He did.

He did. I think there's a feeling that he could also play guard. So, you know, and you could slide him into left guard. I know what I know what they say about City Tribes. and Chris Paul, but, you know, Charles doesn't stay healthy. So, like, they know that as well. So that's the hard part there. So I could see a guy like that.

Cornerback is the other spot that I would see. Now, the question then becomes, you know, if you start to feel like there's going to be a run on either of those positions, do you then, how do you react? And I think in an ideal situation, they probably trade back, pick up another second or third rounder, and then it still address one of those spots. I mean, there's, you know,

the guard Osiris Torrance is an interesting guy, but I don't think you take him at 16. You know, their corners are a very interesting class, and it could be a guy like, I mean, shoot, I know French Moot loves Emmanuel Forbes. I think he'd be a good fit just because of his ability to turn the ball, you know, to take the ball away. You know, I don't know that Joey Porter,

I don't know that he'd be the guy. You know, I mean, he's definitely a press corner. And in this defense, you've got to be able to play press and off, you know, off man and zone and zone match. And so there's a different skill sets. And I think, you know, ideally you find someone who takes the ball away. So, you know, I think that those are the two spots that I go back to. Like, I just, because the draft is good in those areas, and there'll be guys when they pick, whether, like, does a Paris Johnson fall to 16?

you know, one of those guys could slide there, which corner slides are Deonté Banks from Maryland. I mean, he's a physical corner, and, you know, but he doesn't, he has some ball awareness skills that that was the knock on him, according to the scouts. So, you know, but I think those are the spots. And the question, though, Kevin, is that you can, or the thing is you could find those positions after the first round as well. And so, like, that is, why, you know, so is there going to be somebody who falls to 16 who you say you can't pass him up, whether, whatever position is. But I do think in an ideal world for them, it goes O-line and corner, and then it's like,

you know, does somebody fall there, whether, you know, I'm not big on the tight end in the first round because I think there's really good value throughout, and I don't know that you have to do that. But what if there's a, if there's a guy that you love and just expect it, then that's a surprise. Otherwise, I think O-line, you know, specifically tackle and then, you know, corner. Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things that could happen, and I've talked about it a little bit, is what if the best player on the board at 16 is a pass rusher? You know, what if it's, you know, what if it's the kid from Iowa, you know, and they've got him rated higher than anybody else? I don't think that that's out of, you know, Lucas Van Ness.

I don't think that that's completely out of the question. Do you think a trade down at all? Do you think a trade down and a Hendon hooker is a possibility? I think I'd have a hard time believing that in the first round. I think he's a guy that I just think that they probably be more comfortable with him. Let's say if they picked up a second round pick. The question is, would he be there? Now, I know that some people are putting in the first, but it seems like they're doing that because of the, well, then you can control him for five years versus four.

But I think the value of him with his knee injury, I don't know, like, when is he going to be ready? If he's not ready, if he's not, like, cleared until September, he's not ready to play. You know, so, like, are you really going to take a guy like that in the first round? And he's coming from an offense that was considered quarterback friendly. and, you know, some people point to what his backup did in the bowl game after he got hurt. Like, okay, that's a good system for a quarterback. So how much – he was a good quarterback. There's no doubt.

But there's a lot for him to learn. So I have a hard time believing in the first round that you would do that. But I think if you picked up a second round pick, you could do that. I mean, what would it say? What would it say about – Well, then everything I just said about how – Exactly. Out the window.

Okay, good. I'm glad you see that the conflict there. If, you know, everything they've been talking about, everything you've said, everything others say, if they take a quarterback in the first or second round, well, then they're not sure, which, by the way, I think is the real answer here. I do. Right. And listen, I think it's, you know, there are a lot of things I like about Sam Howell.

I mean, I really do. Like, when you watch that game, it's still one game. We're still only talking 19 passes, but there are things that you can like, and you can say, like, if he builds out this, if he can do this. So there's a lot. But I would also say, like, this is a franchise that has been searching and searching and searching for an answer of quarterback for decades, for a long time. You don't stop that because of 19 passes.

If you find a guy that you just say, like, we didn't think this guy would be here, and I love this kid, then take them, you know, and then figure it out. But I also, like if you take Hooker, let's say, let's say they pick up a second, second round pick, and they take Hooker. Well, again, I don't think he's ready this year. So now you have a chance to see what Howell can do, and if he really is the guy. And if he's not, then you have another guy that you can start to groom. And if he is, then you have a guy like maybe he's just a good backup or maybe he becomes, you know, he's not the same style as Jalen Hertz, but maybe he's your version of Jailen Hertz.

where it's like, all right, you know, you got him to figure out, but maybe you parlay him into a different draft pick, right? I don't know. But I just don't think when you haven't had that quarterback for so long that you just give up on the position, I'm looking for that. But I don't think in the first round he'd be that guy. But, you know, I mean, I've been surprised before, but I would be surprised by that.

John underscore Kime on Twitter. He's one of my favorite people to have conversations with about this football team and other things, which we don't usually bring to the podcast, but we have conversations about other things privately. And he is the best. I will be back. Thank you, John. Appreciate it as always. My pleasure.

I'll be back tomorrow. I'll be back tomorrow with Tommy.