The Kevin Sheehan Show - SVP on PGA and WFT

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

Kevin was joined by Scott Van Pelt for an hour to talk PGA Championship in San Francisco along with specifics on Rory, Tiger, Koepka, and DeChambeau. Scott also weighed in on the Washington Football Team's name change and more. Then it was Ben Standig/The Athletic joining the show for some Skins' talk as well. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right, two guests on the show today. Scott Van Pelt coming up here in moments and then Ben standing after that. Quickly, Window Nation. If you're thinking about new windows, please give Window Nation a shot. 86690 Nation or WindowNation.com. There's no risk. You should get windows replaced if they need to be replaced right now. That will get you in for fall. and winter to allow you to really save from an energy bill standpoint. Window Nation has installed one million windows. Their installers have an average of 16 years of experience, and if you mention my name, they're going to set something up for you real quickly. You can get a virtual online quote, or they'll set something up to come out to your home following all CDC guidelines

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Actually, you're not at Harding Park quite yet, but you are in, I'm assuming you're in the city of San Francisco. Is that where you're staying? Yep, we are. We're like right at the airport, which is great fun for my son who enjoys watching planes land. So I take videos, and I think he'd like me to stay here forever and just send videos. So from there, if I recall, you just jump on the 101. You head up there in Harding Parks, like in that western part of this city, right? Like near that lake, whatever.

Lake Merced. Like 15 minutes from where we are. And it's a really good golf course. I love it. And I think it's so cool that they've gotten to host, you know, major just because it's, you know, It's a public course, and it got great history back to the 20s, and it all fell apart. Parking lot, blah, blah, blah. Now, they're hosting a major.

Players really like it, and it's very early on. It's provided, I think, a great stage for the return to big-time sports. You know, it is interesting that, you know, a big city, and I think it's the fourth, you know, third or fourth or fifth largest city in the United States, there are several golf courses right there near that one that are esteemed and pretty famous, right? Oh, yeah, I mean, when you think about it. Like, look at Washington, D.C. You know, like Washington, D.C., you know, like Washington, D.C.,

you know, a bunch of really good golf courses in town, you know, different clubs, and you can argue the merits of whichever one. But they're in the suburbs. Pardon me? They're in the suburbs. These courses are in San Francisco proper. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah.

You mean, yeah, I get that. I mean, hey, look, me, I learned to play golf at Haynes Point. I realize it's not going to host a major anytime soon, but I mean, it's right there. Right. But, but, yeah, no, I mean, it's, but I mean, these don't feel like, like, you know, Olympic and Harding Park. Like, they're not, like, you don't get off a cable car and walk five feet and say it's not in the city-city. I know. But, I mean, whatever.

It's a great town in, it's a city. great golf town and we can't go see any of it because we're not allowed to do basically anything, which we can get into if you're interested. But, you know, again, I think everyone's just excited that big, like a huge event is here. And it's definitely, it's without question, the biggest event that's been played since March. And you were on the call of a lot of the action yesterday on ESPN Plus and then on ESPN. And I forget who told me this. It may have been Corbyn or Ryan and one of the two said that they heard you or Nance, somebody explaining how when you came in or you left, the whole thing had to be sprayed down before Jim Nance walked in.

Am I getting any of that right? Yeah, yeah, and it was me because the thing about people to watch golf, and the reason people seem to be really pleased with what we did on ESPN Plus in particular, they just, they want to see golf shots. they feel it's their birthright to see 508 golf shots per minute shut up and show us golf. And I get it. And so we've tried to feed that insatiable

hunger on ESPN Plus. But as we came on ESPN, and this is a joint venture. We host the coverage on our air on Thursday and Friday. And then we also cover some stuff on Saturday and Sunday, leading into the sort of handoff of a battalion. Khan, if you will, to CBS for the afternoon coverage on the weekend. And so they also work with us on Thursday and Friday.

And so when it's time for Jim Nance to come into the tower on 18, we have to get out. They have a separate headset for him and for me. They come in and they disinfect the entire area. And there's like a group. It's not like some camera man with a spray bottle of Windex. Like it's a medical group. And I mean, I don't know what, I don't want to make it sound like they come in and hazmat suits, but these are people that understand the protocols for how to come in and clean stuff, and they do.

And everyone who's been here, and included me when I got here, I had to be tested in quarantine to make sure I, are you positive or not? Obviously, I wasn't. And so they're just trying to maintain everything they can to create a safe work environment. So the reason I explained that, Kevin, as I was getting out, it's going to be a little bit before you guys see live golf again. And that makes the golf fans furious. And they demand, you know, a pound of flesh because I want, where's why I think live golf?

It might be 10 minutes. It might be 15 minutes before everything is ready to be up and running. So just hang tight and we'll be back to you. You've been to, I don't know, how many majors covering so many of the majors for 20, five years nearly at this point, just about. And I just describe how much different this is. Well, it's, it's, the golf course is, is every bit of a major golf course. It feels big, it feels important, it feels difficult.

I've been walking the golf course on Wednesday with my friend David Duvall, who I've known for all these years. And, you know, this is a guy who was the best player in the way. world. He had about a five-year run. It actually a shorter run, where he and he's telling me this the other day, very matter of fact. He wasn't bragging, but I was just asking about, like, the mentality of a guy, you know, who'd won.

Like Justin Thomas, you know, he won a bunch of events. He said, I won, like, 11 tournaments out of, like, a 33 tournament stretch. Me, he won a third of the tournaments for a chunk of time there where he got to be number one in the world. And I'm getting to the point about his sort of who he is as a player or who he was. And as we're walking around this golf course,

he goes, this golf course looks hard to me. And I started laughing because I'm like, well, hell, if it looks hard to you, you know, imagine how it looks to me. I mean, it's a big boy golf course, and it feels like a major, everything about what it looks like in the setup and the, you know, the infrastructure

of what they built. And then there's no one, right? Like, the PJ Championship, there'd be 40,000 people, every bit of it. And they'd be raucous. and they'd be, you know, and I'm saying if this pandemic never happened, or if we were a little bit further down the road and people were allowed to come,

it'd be even more pronounced if this was like a return for the fans to be able to be out here. But the absence of people is so jarring. And Gene Loggerowski did a great piece yesterday where the title of the piece was the sound of silence. And they're like, ladies gentlemen, T from Jupiter, Florida, the 2000, this,

and that, and the other BJ champion, Tiger Woods. And it's like, it was so weird. Because, I mean, you know how it is, particularly with him. You've been at events when he's introduced. People go apeshet.

You know? And it's like, so you're waiting for that, and it's just, there's nothing. And there was one stretch cover where they got out by like the 12th hole and with that kind of borders,

I want to say, like the fifth hole where people could kind of look through a fence and you heard people who'd been hollered when they saw that group. And it was kind of funny. You're like, oh, there's some people who could... Right, and you heard, yeah, you heard a few of them. And you noticed you're like, oh, cool, like, people can actually see it. But, I mean, look, we're way past how weird the world feels.

Everything obviously is different, right? But this is the first time I've been at an event where you see in real time I mean, you're actually part of the picture that doesn't include, you know, the 40,000 people, and it doesn't include the however many hundred or maybe even thousand media members that would typically be part of covering it from site. So it's very intimate. You know, you kind of just wander around wherever. Andy Norson, hey, it makes my job easier when I'm out there on the ground trying to cover golf, you know.

So there's things, I suppose they're upside to it, but the upsides aren't nearly offset by what a bummer it is that people can't be out. here. By far and away, on television, it's the only thing that I've been watching that seems close to normal because, you know, when you watch a golf tournament and I watch a lot of golf and you watch a lot of golf and you're at a lot of golf, but, you know, there are lots of shots that are hit that are on television without huge galleries. In some cases, no galleries. So it doesn't look that abnormal. But I really, this event this weekend for me is the most excited I've been about a sporting event since it shut down in March like it's not even close but I mean and that makes total sense because because and I and I I don't know I started to say I had an argument I haven't argued with anybody

I would argue with anyone that would try to act as if anything about this week here is in any way worthy of some asterisk. I mean, why? This is the field, the field. The course is still the course. They're not playing in a bubble in Disney. They're not playing in an empty baseball stadium.

It's, and I mean, you could say, well, they're playing in an empty golf course, okay, but there'd be a home field advantage in baseball or in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Think about like the Cavs when they play at home, much the building is part of the energy and the story of what makes a game a game. This is the field. This is the same course, and the stakes are what they are.

Somebody is part of history when they win this weekend. And the tour, I think, has done an excellent job, and CBS deserves a ton of credit. Commissioner Jay Monaghan deserves a ton of credit when there are a bunch of positives the week they were in Hartford. They didn't blink. They just said, look, we're going to keep going, and good for them. Because I think we kind of have to do in life is try to figure it out as best we can, and they have. And so it's been this weekend constant. People have watched it.

The ratings have been good. Tigers here. You've got all these storylines. You've got the leaderboard after one day. It's littered with big-time names. So, I mean, I think we'll do an enormous number Friday just because Tiger will be in prime time. And I think CBS has got a chance to do huge numbers for the weekends. So I think a lot of people feel the same way you do.

Well, and for, you know, those of us that live on the East Coast, there's always something special about a West Coast major. The best. It's so much fun. It's funny. We were having that conversation, I think, on the air the other day. And then CJ also said, yeah, but you know what else is really great? The British Open, when you can turn it on it 4 in the morning and see it being played.

That's great, too. That's a great point. Such a great point because that's a good one especially if you're someone that's got the bug, right? You've got that golf, Jones, and maybe you wake up at 4 and you watch it. The person you're interested in can be done by 10 a.m. your time and you go out, you play golf.

Exactly. But I think, and I said as much at some point, I looked at my watch and I never changed my watch from East Coast time. I don't know, because I'm weird. I never do that either. Yeah. Okay, well, maybe we're not weird, but I just had look at my watch and I said, it was some point I said, you know,

it's all our friends back. on the East Coast. There's nothing better in primetime major championship golf is there? You know, maybe you played

your round and you get to come home and now you get to watch you know, whoever, and it was gorgeous. This golf course just looks so good on TV

and it's, you know, late afternoon, sun, not setting, but it just makes it look even, the aesthetics ever

were just gorgeous. And so, you know, on Friday night, I don't know when you're going to post this, but if people are listening in the afternoon, then you'll be,

you'll be able to watch Tiger and a bunch of bunch of the big boys going out late today. You know what, though, it's funny being, and we're both East Coast, you know, born and raised. Just sports coming from the West Coast in general late in the afternoon and early in the evening has always been interesting, especially in football. And I'm talking about the outdoor sports, obviously. But in football, you know, thinking about UCLA, USC, you know, and, you know, I'm dating myself here,

obviously okay boomer but let's just say you know Oregon and Cal or Oregon and Washington in a big game and just to see how beautiful it looks when it's dark and cold you know where you're watching the game it's always been that way but but the golf thing is outstanding I want to get to a couple of players in particular um and not necessarily talk just about their rounds but you mentioned David Duvall and as you were talking about him I just pulled up you know his Wikipedia page and there were just a couple of things that just struck me immediately. He's only 48 years old. I would have guessed he was much older than that.

I don't know why that is, but when his greatness in the late 90s, he was really young. Oh, yeah. He came out of Georgia Tech as a four-time All-American, and he was that guy. I mean, he was the dude. Oh, yeah. He was supposed to be what he became. And I was, we, you know, David and I are, Oh, you're saying out of college, out of college.

Oh, yeah. I went out of Georgia Tech. He was supposed to be that guy. And he was. And I was at his first win as a professional, which was down at Williamsburg. You remember they used to play that the Biclobe down there at Kingsville. Kingsville. And that was the first win, and it really was like a springboard for him that just lit a fuse.

And then he went nuts. And the issue for him was that like a lot of guys, you know, Bernie L's, Davis-Love, the third, VJ. Singh, you know, they were born at the wrong time because they had to deal with Tiger Woods. And, you know, like, David was, he's in a lot of those, in a lot of pictures where he's not the guy, like the lens is trained on Tiger, like St. Andrews 2000, like he's going to finish, he's going to finish off the slam. Okay, well, he played that final round with David Duvall. Like, that was the guy whose job it was to try to put some heat on but, you know, Tiger was so far clear that he just couldn't.

And, I mean, that's one of those deals where if there's no such thing as Tiger Woods, well, how many majors would David have? I don't know. But to your point, I think he probably feels older because he got injured and he didn't have an opportunity in his late 30s and early 40s to continue playing at a level where, you know, like a Mickelson or a Tiger, he continued to get, you know, accumulate wins. And so he's been, how do I put it? I started to say he'd been allowed to. He just, by no fault of his own, just because of his inability to play at the level, you know, where he once did,

I think he becomes part of your memories more because he hasn't played nearly as much golf. But, you know, he's not yet, not yet 50. But one of the reasons I pulled it up real quickly is I recall, and it sort of explains it in the Wikipedia page, his struggles. but I recall him having a lot of anxiety, yips, different things that really derailed his game. And, you know, it talks about personal difficulties from a form of vertigo during that time. I didn't remember it specific to that. But do you remember that period where he was really struggling and it was more mental than physical? Well, I think it got mental because it was physical.

Like he was, and I mean, I'll say it because it's you. I mean, people are all going to hear this. But, I mean, I kid with him because I can because I'm his friend. Like, he was heavy. And then he got really fit. Like, he committed to getting absolutely, absolutely shredded. And I joked to them, I'm like, bro, you shot 59 to win a PCHAT Tour event Palm Springs when you're fat. Like, you should keep eating pizza.

And just go shoot 59 and win tournament. But he injured himself in his discs in his back. And that, even as it got better, I think created doubt. And, I mean, I can remember having, like, I don't call it like heart to hearts, but I remember having, like, trying to keep trying to be, like, give him to Adaboy. And I remember saying to him, Dave, you know how many people played golf or they didn't know what they were going to do or how it was going to go, like everybody. But you know many people who play golf know what it feels like to be the number one player in the world?

Like, not a lot. You're one of them. And I mean, I remember trying to, like, kind of boost him up. But he just between vertigo and his back, Yeah, I remember vividly when it was just a real struggle, and he was shooting big numbers, and that's why, like, when he, if you remember, when they went to Bethpage that one year in the U.S. Open, he was right there with a chance. And it was, and I get the years confused because they all blend together, but it was the U.S.

Open that, I guess, Glover won at Beth Page. Oh, yeah. 2009. If you pull that up, look at it. He finished, like, third or something. and that was the last great chance he had in a big event. And privately, I remember I was just, I was rooting so hard for him to do it, just because in a different, not nearly to the level of Tiger,

but it would have represented the same kind of thing as Tiger doing it after all the injuries and doubt, and people thought he was done. It would have represented the same kind of thing for him. It would have only been his second major. But, yeah, I was, God, I remember how much I thought. I just wanted him to pull it off. I remember this and I was just going to say it. I said, I think this was a Monday finish and it was.

Yeah, because it rained every day. God, that was a terrible week. Oh, my God, it was awful. You know, anyway, his life and his professional career is an interesting story for sure because it was a meteoric rise and then, you know, a big time crash pretty quickly after the rise. So, all right, a couple of players. to talk about. First of all, I wanted to start with Rory McElroy. Why hasn't he won a major championship in six years? I alluded to that yesterday of the coverage, and I want to choose

words carefully because, like, he won the players. And people forget last year, because I don't think the playoff is ingrained in people's mind. Like, it's not something that the majors are just different. Like, they try to make the playoffs matter because of money. And, like, I don't think people care that these guys win a potload of money. money because there he got it. But he won that, too, Rory did. And so what gives him saying he's won a bunch of big events. And he's a great player. But he hasn't won a major since 2014. And I don't know the answer to that. I think he's a interesting guy. He's a thoughtful guy. He's a guy who's on a bit of a sort of self-exploitation and he's read all these different books where he's not tied to

results. Like, he's just, which, by the way, good for him. Like, he's, I guess what I'm saying, Kevin, is he's human. Like, he doesn't look at himself in the mirror and think, I'm worthless if I don't shoot 68. But I find it odd, given his talent, and he's got as much of it as anyone, that he hasn't won more major championships or that he hasn't won any in a five-year window. And the thing about this game is if you don't take advantage of a five-year window from

late 20s to early 30s. You know, you're going to regret that historically when you're on the back end of your 30s and you're in your early 40s because at some point in there, he'll become a dad, and then maybe how he views golf changes even more. Maybe he doesn't even care. I mean, I'm not saying. Is he a father? Does he have young?

I don't believe so. I don't believe Roy's a dad yet. It's interesting because you raise the possibility that he's not as dialed in or committed. as much. I guess, but I don't know that to be the case. Like, I don't think that the fact that you are, you know, are well-read and have this sort of view of self that isn't defined by golf doesn't mean he's not dialed in.

Maybe it means you're just more self-aware than someone who just says, you know, I'm ruthlessly focused on winning majors. And maybe, Kevin, you're winning four as quick as he did. You're like, hey, I'm good, man. Like, I need the Masters to win a grand slam. I got, I mean, there's maybe three commas in his worth, you know? Yeah. You know, I don't think, I don't think you wake up.

That can change your view, too. That can change your perspective, too, because there are just so many guys like him on the tour that are just outrageously wealthy, like to the point where, you know, you end up having other, you know, other responsibilities that. come with that, corporate responsibilities, business responsibilities, and for somebody who may be more well-rounded, which is sort of what you're describing as well, it can result in it being not nearly as important. As a fan, when I watch him, I just think his putting is way too inconsistent, and that's why he doesn't win as much in the big spots.

Well, that's the technical part. That's the technical part. I mean, watching him and David DeVole has said as much. He just said he just said he hadn't hit it. He had done in his wedges as well as he should. And he had putted as well. If you watched on Thursday, you saw, like, he just, and Andy North was with that group. He's like, he just can't, he doesn't have the speed. He must have to hit it past five, six, he had to be all day long. All day long. And he's done that before. And I mean, well, I mean, it was, I think these greens are really, they're, they're not as fast as, you know, you're used to, because these greens, California, you know, the marine layer, they tend to hold moisture. They're fast, but they're not blazing.

And, you know, maybe you just tend to hammer them. I don't know. He couldn't find the feed on Thursday, but, I mean, it's a question that's reasonable, and I ask it. You know, I'm like, how come I got one more major? But the other thing, Kevin, it's so friggin' hard to win majors right now. And Duvall said it yesterday. I said the depth of golf right now is, and I paused for a moment to think, what word do I

want to use it. David said, unprecedented. And I said, is that the right word? He said, I believe it is. And he just, he went through, you know, just the depth of how many people there are that come every single week to you go, well, this guy. Oh, yeah, well, don't forget about that guy. And like I said it, look, Dustin Johnson, how good is he? He's preposterously talented.

He's got one, Kevin, one major. Justin Rose, same deal, one. And as I said to David, I'm like, hey, as you know, one is kind of a lot. majors. It's hard to win more than one. I thought Rose had two. One. He lost a playoff to Sergio and the Masters. And like, that's the thing I said about him.

I'm like, man, when you've got a chance to do that, you better take it. Like, David knows better than anybody. There are three or four chances he had to win the Masters and it just didn't happen. And then you're sitting there and you're 48, you're never going to win it. You know what I mean? I'm rambling now. No, no. But it's... Whether it's... Or anybody.

Winning majors is really hard. I mean, well, what's so amazing, First of all, the PGA championship field is always the deepest, right, of the four majors. But, you know, in the golf pool that you and I are both in, I'm sitting there on Wednesday night, and I'm going through, you know, all the players I haven't used in looking at the field. And I'm like, you know, wow, I mean, it's so deep. And you look at the leaderboard yesterday and guys like Zach Johnson who have won majors and Martin Kimer who have won majors. They're in this field.

And then all these guys that have been hot recently, whether it's, Burger or the guy last week that played well, Tom Lewis, or the young guys that everybody thinks are going to win eventually. Victor Hovlin would be in that. It's so deep. If you follow the sport like we do, it's incredible how many players you would say, yeah, he's got a chance to win this week. It's got to be as deep as it's ever been.

Look at you dropping Tom Lewis on the people because you're paying attention because you got to pick the winner one week and now all of a sudden. No, two times. Two times. I'm back in the mix. I've got two. I had Webb Simpson when he won, and I had Justin Thomas last week. Good for you. I'm sure everybody listening to your podcast. That vaulted me to number three in the golf pool. Good for you. I cashed last year. Maybe you'll cash this year.

What did you think of Tiger? And more importantly, what do you think of his chances this weekend to be in the hunt? well to be to just to we're clear here I mean we're talking before I know yeah it's 11 a.m. on Friday East Coast time right so it's I mean I mean there's there's a long long way to go for all these guys you know like hey Martin Kimer Zach Johnson cool I mean that's you know great start but you know that's a quarter of a first quarter of a football of an NBA game I I was impressed at how he played because I had no idea what to expect because he just hasn't played golf. And it's entirely reasonable for him to at this stage truly not care about anything but

the majors. Like there's no point. Like he doesn't need to go anywhere and play. He doesn't need to go to Memphis. Doesn't need to go to Harbor Town. I need to go to any of these places. And he didn't. But because he's got this bad back and because when he did play at Mirfield, he

complained about his back. And he normally is really, really hesitant to do that. But he was honest. He's like, you know, it's bother me. It's not good. And so, okay, I saw him at a practice round Monday, Tuesday. It's hard to remember which day it was. And during practice rounds, like, I'll walk with people and I'll talk when it's clear

that they're not sort of in a grinding mode. But he had that far away look, and I've done him way too long to go up and start playing, like, backslap and hey, how's it going? I just left him alone. And he was doing all these deep knee bends on teas, and I'm looking at him, and it's cold outside. I'm like, man, he looks old, and he feels like crap. That's what he looked like to me.

And he was obviously just sort of, you know, working through whatever. Well, he comes out on Thursday, and he looks like Tiger Woods. You know, he butted it well. He hit it well. He never looked like he was in any discomfort. And so all the things physically that would be kind of tells if he didn't feel right were absent. And so that is a huge positive for, you know, the chances of him competing. Because unlike most players in the field, he's actually played here and one year.

So, you know, a lot of the guys, when they got here, it's blind to them. Well, Tiger knows it because, you know, he played here and one here, got history here. So I thought everything, everything about Thursday that Tiger, Woodes did was positive. Well, he really putted it well with that new, I guess it's a longer putter. I thought he's... It is, and he explained that because his back, he's like, you know, he just even... And I thought that was interesting because the difference in a putter link isn't going to be like

he's not using a long putter, but just even fractionally not having to bend down more is a help. And so that's why he did it, so he could be a little bit more upright. Is there a better clutch performer in the sport than Brooks Kebka? right now, no. I mean, I don't know. I don't even know how you'd argue that. And he's, I really, I dig him.

He doesn't give up bleep. Are we allowed to cost us to get? Of course. Like, well, he doesn't give him. He doesn't, he's got none to give, as they say. Like, he doesn't, I don't think he likes Bryce into Shambos, so he just heckles him. Like, he makes fun of him. And he, he, he, he, I think, you know who he reminds me of him of, you know, I've seen in

goodwill. hunting where like Damon's characters going through like solving a proof on the board and the professor's sort of fumbling around and Damon is just like you know how easy this is for me? He's offended. It's just off-putting to him

that you don't understand how easy this is to me. You can't do it, but I can't blind. And golf feels that way for him, I think. Like, he doesn't love it. He's made that no secret. He doesn't grind over the game. He's made that no secret.

He works at it, but he just, he cares when he cares, and when he does, which is the majors, he shows up, and it's like, let's go, man. And you look at his finishes, and when he hasn't won, he, like, who Tiger beat it at Augusta? Well, on the end, it was Kepka. And he's there constantly with a chance. And, you know, yesterday, we're talking Friday, it was Thursday. we were on ESPN Plus, and he started on the back at the par five, and he did make a birdie, and then he made a bogey,

and then he made a grinding par. It's like three holes in, and he's one over, and you're like, wow, he looks a little, you know, all right, it's a major, and it's a bit of a struggle. Well, you know, five birdies later, you know, he's four under par, and he's like, oh, so he's won off the lead. He's just got an ability to find the gear when it matters that at the moment feels like he's the only one that has it every time.

There's plenty of guys that have gears, right, that they find. He seems to have it anytime there's a major. He's got complete focus locked in, and let's go shoot a score, and he does. You know, I don't know if this is true or not, but I don't know that there has been a more overwhelming favorite. it. Odds-wise, percentage picked in pools than Kepka this weekend other than Tiger Woods in his prime. He's become such the obvious go-to pick in such a short period of time. I mean, he won that first open in 2017, I think. So we're talking about basically three years. He's

become the best big game guy in the sport. And Vegas, takes notice. He was such a big favorite. He still, as I was looking at it this morning, I think he's like a three to one favorite, and the next closest is eight to one, and he's a shot back. Yep, well, I mean, again, it's one, it's one round. Yeah, after Thursday, it's, you know, it's insignificant, just given his track record, but no, you're right, it's, and you know, it's interesting, I don't know if I've told this story, I'll try to make, I'll just try to give you a clip note. The year Phil won the open at Mearfield, and again, I'm terrible with years. I want I was 2014, but, I mean, it could have been, I mean, I don't know, I'm terrible at this, but

I know Phil one at Muirfield, I was there. And the Tuesday of that week, and I was just talking about, like, you know, walking with guys during practice rounds, and I had, I walked with a group, and the group was. Marion. Ricky Fowler. Say again? And not Mirfield, Marion. No, no, Muriel.

Oh, Mirfield. Oh, the British Open. That's right. 2013. God, that was a great... That was where he shot, 65 in the final round or whatever, something like that.

Incredible round. What Phil did there was astounding, because I thought he had... I'd have bet a million dollars five years before he'll never win a major. He did not have to play open championship costs. Anyway, it's Tuesday, and it's the Phil Money game,

and it's Phil, Dustin Johnson, Ricky Fowler, and Brooks Kepka. Now, what was telling about that is it was two, 2013, and Brooks Kepka played at the time on what was called the Challenge Tour. The challenge tour is the equivalent of, like, what is now the Corn Fairy Tour.

In the U.S., which was once Nike, web.com has been named a billion things, but you know the tour I'm talking about. So he had gone from Florida State, went to Europe to play, which I think is really interesting, because I'm imagining like Kepka running around in Belgium, you know what I mean. But he went there to go play golf and play pro and grind it out, and he went there, he won a bunch of those events, which got him a chance to play in the open. And so here are these three stars. And in 2013, all those guys are already stars.

And this dude, no one knows. But I knew who he was because I knew that he was this American guy that went over there. And so as we walked during the practice round, I was just walked. I was talking to Brooks, just about being part of the group. And he didn't say much of anything. Who's the group? Who's the group again? Tell me who's in the group again?

Phil and Ricky, they were a team. Dustin Johnson and Brooks kept. So what is, for those that don't know, what is the money game? Well, it's just a Tuesday practice round, so you're going to kill two birds with one stone. You're going to go out and you're going to prepare for the major. You're going to make it interesting because you're going to play. You're going to play for some stakes. Okay.

And so the fun part of that was that, you know, they were just goofing around and they got to like 16. I'll never forget it. It's like, you think we should turn the screws on them now? I'm like, whatever you think. He stuffed it in there like two feet. Ricky makes a birdie. They made Eagle at 17, and they win the money. And I said, they kept going.

It was over. I'm like, you know, I said, it costs you some dollars. But that's as valuable and experiences you can have. And he's like, that's why he's like, I didn't say a word. I think I'm just trying to learn. I'm just trying to learn. But here's what I'm getting at. Even then, Kevin, in 2013,

these stars, Fowler-Mickleton Johnson, saw enough in him, thought enough of him that they wanted him to be part of this group playing this money game. They wouldn't have invited some slappy to play. But he fit in then, and that's before he was even a guy. And now here he is, you know, not that long later, and he's the guy. You know, and it's amazing how quickly he figured out what it was to win majors.

And, you know, he wanted in a runaway, and he run it where he had to grind it out. He had that big lead bet page, you know, fell all the way down to one. but he held on for dear life. And Andy said, you could take more out of that than winning and a runaway because you had to dig it out. You know what I mean? So, I don't know, man. He's, again, I'm rambling, but he's got it, man. Well, he's also one of those dudes, like Dustin and a few others, where you can tell he's just an athlete, too.

You know, he's exactly right. I mean, he probably could play anything. Yeah, I think you're right. Dustin more than him. Dustin's absurd. Like, truly absurd, just athletically gifted. I always joke around with him. Like, when he walks like he walks like a panther. Like, he doesn't walk like a human being.

You know what I mean? He just saunteres down there. And I watched him hit drivers yesterday, Kevin. It is preposterous what Dustin Johnson does with a driver in his hand. Speaking of what players do with a driver in their hands, what about DeCambeau? And off of Kepka, they've got this, you know, running thing going. I asked Sands was on with me two days ago on radio. So what is the word on DeCambeau?

Like, how different is he? Do the players like him? Just give us, you know, a minute or two on him. I don't know. I don't know if they do. I know they respect him. I mean, I know that they're amazed at what he's done. amazed and to a man they're all like nothing but praise for that but he's this guy that you know it's he's got all this physics and science and he knows he knows um you know uh like like the humidity and this and that he's just all the he's got all this sort of all these different

equations that he that he puts into putts and all that i get some get the eye rolls from his peers i'll just put it that way And then, you know, the fact that he's gotten kind of aggressive with, like, rules, officials, and, you know, I don't know, like, the fact that Kepka goes back at him as pointedly as he does, I think is pretty telling. You know what I mean? Right. Like, do they, like, I don't know. I'm not out here enough to know how they view it, but I think the way people act towards it tells me that, you know, they want to kind of tell him to shut the bleep up sometimes. They want to take his action. Kind of.

Yeah, kind of. I mean, especially in majors. The guys never finished better than top 15, which is kind of, I mean, let's be fair, he's been out here five minutes, man. It's not like he's underperformed. But it's the guy that's going to use all the data to bring down Vegas. Yeah. Yeah, I guess.

I guess. And, I mean, one player, and I won't identify this player, just because, but he said to me, he said, look, how long can you physically. do what he's doing. Like, put that much more weight on your body and swing that hard at it before you're going to have back problem. He goes, look, he's young now, so it's fine. Have fun and let it rip. But how long can you do this before something goes wrong? And I said, I mean, this is an older player who I think maybe has a better sense of wear and tear. But I'd say, like, on the range, another player who was a major, who's a major champion,

said, have you seen who swing the driver yet? They say, they've said, they've got to see it. He said it's a circus. And like, this isn't you or me talking. This is a pro, right? Who's saying of another guy, you've got to watch him hit a club. They've got pros don't say stuff like that. So he's definitely like seen as a, another guy said he's like a, you know what he's like he's like one of those big, beefy long drive guys.

The difference is he's actually a great player. But that's what he's done. He's built his body like a long drive guy. He swings at it like a long drive guy. But then he goes and shoots, you know, 65. Those two warm-up swings are just so aggressive. It's unbelievable. It's like what you would see somebody who's never played the game just sort of walk out there and swing super hard. Correct. It just, I mean, and again, he's enormous. So he's, he's managed to figure it out in a short

period of time. Bryson D. Shambo is a show for sure. I mean, that's, That's the part about him that is he's entertaining to watch. I'm not rooting for him. I bet I feel the way other players feel. I'm not rooting for him, but I love to see him swing the driver for sure. Before you run,

because I know you've got to head over to the course here shortly, changing subjects completely. It's been, you know, it's been a wild month and a half down here where you're going to be moving very shortly down here to do your show with Steve, the Scott Van Pelt Support Center, which will start to come from Washington, D.C., which we're all excited about.

But this last month and a half with the football team, the name's gone. There's a Washington Post story on 15 women that stepped forward to accuse an alleged sexual harassment. With, by the way, an internet speculation leading up to it that had, you know, Snyder with Epstein and Edges' craziness. You know, it's... Yeah, that got wild, man. It got crazy.

That was not a good look for media types that took to... They took the opportunity to use the fact that a story was coming out as cover to just baselessly speculate about, like, Reddit stories. You know what I mean? Like, internet stories. And let me just be clear. Many times there's something to... There's something to that smoke. But, like, people were just...

Like, media people were throwing stuff out there, like, yeah, I'm hearing like this and that. The other thing. Here's what I hear. And then the story came out. and I shouldn't have jumped you. I mean, the story is significant, but it wasn't the stuff that people were talking about the Internet. No, it actually did this story a bit of a disservice.

And, you know, I don't even know if we've talked about this. Maybe we have. The story, if nobody knew it was coming and it got dropped on your phone on a 4 o'clock on a Thursday afternoon, you would have been wide-eyed. I mean, you know, Liz and Liz Clark and Will Dobson did a great job. I mean, this isn't two people alleging this. This is 15 people. You rarely see that and that kind of a story.

So, but because it wasn't Epstein or sex trafficking or some sort of drug ring, you know, it was, it actually emboldened the franchise a little bit. They sent out, Scott, they sent out a letter from their sales department, their sales and marketing department, to clients. And they attached the post article. And in the letter, which I got several copies of from various people who I know, who are clients of the team. It actually says in the letter, the wild internet speculation was not true. The only thing that is true is this attached story here from the Washington Post.

It was almost like they were saying, see, look over here. This thing, it's not that bad. The thing that you heard it was going to be, it wasn't. It's crazy that they would do that, but it's sort of typical of the franchise. But anyway, that and the name. which you grew up, a Washington Redskins fan.

What did you make of all of it? Well, and let me just say this preemptively. I'm going to call them the Redskins on the air. Don't get mad. Don't get mad. I'm not being defined. I'm going to do it. I'm going to say it because I'm going to slip because I called the San Diego Chargers, the San Diego Chargers, even though the L.A. Chargers, because I called them that my whole life.

I called the Brooklyn Nets, the New Jersey Nets the first year that they were there in Brooklyn because they'd been to New Jersey Nets my whole life. And in talking about them out here with, for instance, Joe Laca, who's TIGER's Caddy, as soon as I saw him, I walked up and I gave him 40 bucks because every year he, I've known him, we've had 20 and 20 on every Washington, New York game. And when I saw him, we were talking, and just in the conversation, I started to say that's the name. And then I stopped myself, and I said, I'm going to do that all year. I'm sure. And he's like, of course, he said it. It'll be impossible not to. You just said it forever.

And I, like you, Kevin, I read quite a bit about this because people would always ask me, why don't, why do you call them that name? And I said, well, that's it because it's their name. And because all I've read is the Washington Post article that they did not, not what white people or black people. The poll, the 2016 poll. the 2016 poll the Washington Post did that I would that I should presume there is their intentions

but I they did it and I maybe they thought that they were going to get different results but the result they got with it 90% of Native American people did not find the name of it 90%. So I took that to mean that everyone that tells me

this is a slur and it's the same as the N word are just wrong because this is how people feel for whom it would most pointedly mean a slur. So that is how I always operated that this is the team's name, this is the best intel I have about how Native American people feel about the name. And so that's how I carried on.

It became very clear that this moment in time when many things are changing was going to be the time that Washington's name changed as well. and I will call them whatever their name is moving forward. If it's Washington football team, if it's Washington Football Club, if it's whatever, fine. Like, I have no emotional attachment to the name. None. I'm not like defiantly going to wear shirts and say the name because, no. No, zero emotional attachment.

So the time was, the time, I started to say the time was right. the time made it inevitable that this was going to change whatever Native American people felt or not. The public at large was saying this has to happen. And right now when the public at large says that about most anything, that's what happens, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, you know my feelings on this. We've talked a lot about it. And everybody that's listening to the podcast knows my position. Yeah, they know.

And you don't know, you don't have anything. to be apologetic about for slipping and saying the Redskins. And the most frustrating thing, and I've mentioned this on the podcast several times over the last month, and I don't know if you and I have talked about this, I think the most frustrating thing for someone like me is, first of all, you know, if one less person feels less, if one person feels less marginalized because the name changed, I'm happy about that. That's awesome. That's well said.

And by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I should have said that. And that's right. You know what? 9 out of 10, 90% of the people felt that way, but that means 10% felt marginalized by that. And that's too many people. I don't know if it's too many to make the name change. But the point is, is I still have a sensitivity towards those people. And who knows?

Maybe if they had done another poll after what happened in Minneapolis, maybe the numbers would have been different. But the thing that really just continues to irk me because it continues to be the case on a day-by-day basis when this is written about is when people look back, you know, 10, 15, 20 years to July 2020 when the name was finally changed and stripped, you know, really by corporate pressure more than anything else. What really bothers me, Scott, is it's being recorded for history as this shameful, terribly racist, heinous name finally in July of 2020 was dropped. And all of the people that supported it and the owner that continued with it, finally those racists were, you know, had that name taken away from them. And, you know, whether it's Peter King or Max Kellerman, they are being disingenuous because they know that this is a complex and debatable topic. They know it's not, it's the N-word, mic drop, end of discussion, dictionary defined, that this has been a very complicated conversation. And yet it's not going to be recorded that way by them.

And I find that to be a bit repulsive because they're being dishonest. They know that the Post and every single data point has supported that overwhelmingly Native Americans have not found the word to be insensitive and actually have supported the team keeping the name. But it never gets mentioned. It's more we just as a collective, you know, a group of media people, we just ended the worst. racist wrong in recent modern history. I just can't stand it being recorded that way. I would just ask for the people that are so certain in 2020 that that's the case than why it was in 2015 that they weren't on their platforms equally and equally and with

as much as they would say keep that same energy. Where was it then? If it was so evident, if it was so crystal clear to you 10 years ago, five years ago, I think then you would have been you'd have been pounding your desk and demanding that anyone that said the name or cheered for the team with some racist, you just said it then.

Well, some of those people have been on it for a long time. You're right. No, no, no. There are some people that have made those points. Others feel like it's a bit more opportunistic in terms of in terms of how passionately they're arguing against. And just so we're clear, like, I was never passionately defending. Never. I wasn't my, that was not my position. My position was, this is their name. Yeah, I grew up rooting for the team. And based on what

the most information that exists on how Native American people feel is not that they feel that way. But again, I don't care that they change the name. I'm not upset in not one shred of my being is upset. That's because you've become, you've become much less of a fan over the years because you haven't lived here. And because of... And also they stunk. And they stunk. And look, admittedly, I've become less passionate about the team as well.

And this name issue, which used to be, you know, something that, it wasn't like I was vehemently defending it. I was just always, wait a minute. Why would you change it when there's absolutely no evidence that the people that matter the most want it changed? But I'm less passionate about it as well, which has frustrated. many of my listeners because they expect me to be out there really fighting, you know, when it was still in doubt, you know, a month ago or so. But, you know, I think I mentioned

this to you. It's like 20 years from now. A grandpa, how could you have been such a racist and rooted for a team with that name? And I'm going to have to explain to him. No, no, I'm a good guy and I'm open-minded. But what you're reading from Mike Florio from, you know, July of 2020 actually isn't true. It's not the way he framed it very inaccurately, which is what they've been doing for a while, but man, did they jump on it when it finally came to an end? But anyway, so are we going to have football or not? Pro football, yeah. Pro football, they'll play. They'll figure out a way. Because they're pros and are being paid for it. College football is really tricky, really, really

tricky. And as you and I were talking, I just saw Maryland had like six guys opt out and some significant people that were starting players along the line. Who opted out? Johnny Jordan, Fontaine, Jackson, the quarterback

that started last year. Now maybe he saw the writing on the wall, maybe if he feels like that, I mean, keep calling him to his brother, I should do a better job than that, but if he can go by Lolo, maybe if he gets a a waiver, maybe that's what they think. But what, neither here nor there, You asked what we have college football. And I can't tell you, Kevin, walking around out here, every player is like, man, they're going to play college football.

And I say, on the one hand, they have to because the sustainability of college sports is dependent upon the money that college football generates. So they have to, or else college sports, it feels like we'll die. On the other hand, I don't know how they can because college players have no union. to represent their concerns. Each conference is going to have to figure out what protocols look like. If these protocols like the Big Ten is talking about, where if there's a contact trace, where if one person had it and you block them,

you're out for 14 days, well, then it'll never, there's no chance. So on the one hand, it feels like it has to, so sports survive. On the other hand, it feels like it can't happen because I don't know how the protocols can be established, that will allow for it. And once college campuses get back together, as we have seen,

I mean, there will be spikes in cases. And I don't know, man. Like, if I had to bet on, is there college football, I bet that there's not. And that's a horrible thing to say out loud because I love the sport, and I want to watch it. And from a, look, just being honest for a business standpoint, for ESPN, it'd be crushing to not have college football crushing.

So sure. But again, I mean, this is similar to Washington's name. You know, like, I'm not so insensitive that if people feel a certain way that it's damaging, like this is potentially damaging to young people, then I don't, I'm not an asshole. I'm not over here going, I want football, and I don't care about your health. Of course I care about your health. The thing that's crazy about this, that whole topic, to me, is that there's so little we know about this. like, well, young people get it and they get better. Like, I know the number of schools, they had a bunch of positives,

and I asked the coach, did anyone have a symptom? And they said, no, not a temperature, nothing. They're positive, tested positive, zero symptoms. This is important. This is important information. It feels like it. But what we don't know is you, I read, I read these stories, but I don't know the context, like people that had it,

and then it turns out that they've actually got heart damage. It looks like they had a heart attack. I know. I'm like, okay, well, now, hold on. Did all these young people that had it but didn't have a temperature? Are you telling me they're wandering around with hearts that have been compromised? Because if that's the case, then, of course not. Of course, you can't play football if that's the case.

But if you had it, never knew you had it. And a week later, you're fine. Well, then I'm like, well, then what are we doing? Are we really going to stop the show over that? But I don't think anyone can tell me definitively that they know because no one does know. So college seems like maybe it's a bridge too far Just because of all of the hurdles that have to get to get cleared You know what I mean?

I know they're going to try I know they're going to try to give themselves a chance But it just seems so complicated The NFL I think will because they're professionals And you could opt out and get compensated You just create a bigger pool of people Look at the PGA tour, a guy gets it You sit him down Nick Watney got it

It's somewhere Harbor Town Denny McCarthy got it Yeah, well, I mean, and he's here this week. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, that's different here because it's not a team sport, so you can kind of go sequester yourself. But, I mean, I don't know, Kevin, I tweeted out. I don't tweet it.

I know. I was just going to read it because it's exactly what I've been saying to. Go ahead. Tell everybody who the hell knows? Exactly. Who the hell knows? The day that the Marlins all tested positive, everyone wants to scream, oh, that's it.

You got to pull the plug on baseball, and I was like, who the hell knows? Well, guess what? They didn't pull the plug on baseball. No, they did. Now the Marlins apparently don't lose. They've got zombie Marlins. They've got these people know who they are, and they win every game they play. By the way, I would love that.

I would love if this team has been bad and has a bunch of people to get sick and brings in players no one's ever heard of suddenly became like the good team during this crazy pandemic. It would be hysterical. They're six and one. I think it's the best start for a team that lost 105 games or more the year before since 1899. I think I read that early this morning. And, you know, they just swept the Orioles with, as you mentioned, a bunch of people that nobody even knows. But it's totally the appropriate answer, unless you're some sort of scientist or doctor.

And even they seem to have, you know, very little clue. I'm going to say, hold on now. Hold on. The scientists and doctors have told us one thing. And then a week later said, not just something slightly different, but the exact opposite of what they told us the week before. And that's okay if the data changes. Like, I don't want them to be behold. to a prediction or, you know, a statement from two weeks ago if the data changes and they feel

differently. But yeah, I mean, it's every... You know what? That's fair. That's fair, Kevin. You're right. But because so many things that they've said, they've circled back on, I think people, and God knows the climate is such at the moment where, you know, there's very, there's not a lot of reasonable discourse, but because trust the science, and then the science is like, well, which one do you want us to trust the thing where you said this? The thing you said it was day or the thing where you said it was night, which one should we trust? Like, you're right, don't be beholden. But when you move the goalpost every week, we don't know where the hell we're supposed to kick the ball.

To your college football thing, too. Tommy and I, I think, had this conversation yesterday. What a lot of people don't realize when they just say, shut it down, shut it down, shut it down. You have small town America, small business America, totally reliant in so many of these college towns on the six to seven home games a year. And it's going to be devastating economically if there's no college football. Devastating. I mean, there's so many different ramifications economically to know football,

and it goes much deeper than any other sport, which is why I think both college and pro are going to give it the college try. And baseball, to your point, I mean, Bos wrote when the Miami Marlins had all those people test positive. It's over. Shut it all down. Sports. And, you know, the bottom line is it's 0.2% of the players being tested or testing positive. And no one has gotten really sick.

But at the same time, there could be long-term effects from testing positive and being infected. So who the hell knows? With that. Oh, no, that's it. All right. That's it. I'm done. thank you for doing this and have a safe weekend, fun weekend. We'll be watching.

Yeah, and hey, when we get down there, can you help me bring some couches in? Yeah, I can set that up for you. Not it. I'm going to be there with refreshments. Yeah, you're going to be there sitting in a lawn chair saying, no, no, no, but just a little further left. Just a minute. No, no, that does go in that room. This should come down here. The most important room will be wherever you've got the big screen and refrigerators. We're going to get that set up.

We're going to get that set up for you. We'll be ready for football if there is any. I'll promise you that. All right. Take care. All right, pal. Good to talk to. See you.

All right. Thanks to Scott for spending so much time as he is out in San Francisco heading to Harding Park and you can watch him as he spearheads ESPN's coverage of the PGA championship. Quick word about MyBooky.ag, then we'll get to Ben Standing. If you're betting already and you've got a place online that you're betting through, that's fine. I would still urge you to go to MyBooky.orgie. You can compare point spreads and get the better of the point spreads, perhaps at MyBooky. Their pricing is excellent, and you get paid if you win.

They also are offering, if you use my promo code, Kevin D.C., a free $10 MLB wager. MyBooky.ag is a place where you can rely on the fact that they're going to give you fairness on point spreads prices and you're going to get paid if you win. That's a big deal in this business. Again, if you're new to it, use mybooky.ag. They've got a lot of offerings, including the $10 MLB wager. And if you're already wagering and you're looking for a second or a third shop to do comparison, you know, line shopping on, I would urge you to consider MyBooky as well. MyBooky.ag. You bet you win, you get paid. And again, my promo code, use it, is Kevin D.C. All right, let's bring in Ben Standig, who, of course, covers the Washington football team for the athletic. I've urged everybody for a while now to subscribe to the athletic. And you can get a discount right now for doing it. Ben does such a great job covering the team. Rianne Walker, everybody that covers all the local teams does a great job on the athletic. and you are someone who writes quite often. And even though we end up talking once every week and a half on either the radio show or the podcast,

it seems like every time I have you on, there's another two or three Ben Standing columns to discuss. And you got Jack Del Rio one-on-one last week, and you did a great job with him. You obviously have been a part of all of these Zoom conference calls or interviews. with coaches and players over the week. So we've got a lot to talk about, and I want to take it chronologically since you were on last, and start with your interview with Jack Del Rio, the Redskins' new defensive coordinator,

a man who's been very active on social media, and you did ask him about that. But what I want you to share with people is what you found out about, A, players he's really excited about, and B, style of play. style of defense? Well, as always, thank you.

Thank you for having me. Yeah, so, you know, I didn't have a ton of heads up that it was going to happen that day. So, you know, there's obviously a few things you should generically want to ask the defensive coordinator, especially a guy, you know, the defensive coordinator for a new team and all that. But I was trying to think of different ways to say, I've been trying to get a different ways to ask,

what do you think of your players, especially when he hasn't seen any of them at this point. You know, the training camp is only just starting. There's been no off season. So I thought to myself, well, what's he been doing all summer? So he's probably been watching tape. And I guarantee these guys, the way they watch tape, they gravitate.

Even if they try to watch every single player, they gravitate towards some more than others. So that's, I frame the question as, of the players' tapes you watch, who enjoy the most, whatever that meant, maybe somebody was just amazing, or maybe he saw somebody being misused

that he could fix, or whatever. And the first name he gravitated towards was Duran Payne, which I think is interesting on a few fronts. One, you know, it feels like everybody in the defensive line gets overlooked. It's not Chase Young right now. And two, I don't think Payne, even among the two Alabama guys they drafted in the first round, is the one that people always think of first,

and Jonathan Allen tends to be the one first. But you definitely talk to people around the league. And, you know, I think there is a sense that Payne is the one to watch of those two. that he's got a chance to be something really special inside. And, you know, I think, without crapping on the previous administration or the previous regime, I think there was a sense that they were misusing him a bit. Del Rio talked about less too gas, more being penetrating type interior line, you know, getting up the field, and that he really thinks that Payne has a chance to be a breakout player

for the team this year. And, you know, obviously with all the edge talent they have, with Chase Young, Carrigan, Montez-Swett, if you want to throw Ryan Anderson in there, that, you know, that's going to open up more opportunities inside. You would think logically in pain is the one to take advantage of. He also mentions Cole Holcomb and Ryan Anderson as two other guys who's taped. He enjoyed. He enjoyed, so, you know, I thought it was just a fun way to sort of get an off-the-cuff response to things we know he's thinking, but not just tee it up in the most obvious way.

Who do you think is going to be interesting? And I think that gave him honest response. Yeah, I liked his response to you on Payne as well, because I think you're probably right. More of the fan base focuses in on John Allen. I have spent a lot of time talking about Duran Payne. I'm not trying to slot myself on the back because it may not work out, but I think there is a different level of upside in pain

than the other interior D-line. He is freakishly athletic. And, you know, we know that the last couple of years, even though Rivera and Del Rio aren't going to come out and say it directly. But, you know, the scheme didn't necessarily fit the talent. The way they were coached, I don't necessarily think worked out for anybody defensively. But pain to me is one of those obvious upside blue chip A-type players, like a guy who could become top three or four at his position because of his athletic talent. The thing about him

that I've heard is it's just too bad that John Allen's mindset isn't in Duran Payne's body. And not that people minimize or think that little of John Allen because he's a tremendous talent as well. But Payne's talent is maybe the highest along that defensive interior. your front. Yeah, and the way you just phrased that, it kind of reminds me with the Wizards when you had Otto Porter and Kelly Ubrey together. Yeah, right. And Ubray was just an incredibly dynamic athlete who did no seem to always understand how

to play basketball. And Otto Porter was a guy who was from an NBA athletic standpoint was fairly pedestrian, but from a mental game and a fundamental standpoint was off the charts. If you could merge the two, you'd have an amazing small forward. And, yeah, I think that's, I've heard some more things as well. And, you know, Alan gets the sacks, and that's obviously sort of the easy stat to gravitate towards, which is why, you know, if I'm accurate, that that's why some people think of him first. But, yeah, that pain, the havoc he can cause inside, especially in the run game,

is potentially very special if, like you said, he, you know, if he can sort of get the needed focus, you know, at all times, and having Del Rio and Rivera, I think, is going to go a long way. You know, plus obviously the defensive line coach Sam Mills, part of the new staff as well. But, yeah, Payne's upside is pretty significant. And we did a story on the athletic recently about who's the potential breakout star for your team, somebody who hasn't been to a Pro Bowl or been named All-Pro. I was going to go with McCorrin, but I went with Payne instead because I just thought, sort of like we're discussing with the upside is there,

and that on this defensive line with so many pieces now, he really should have an opportunity to get a lot more, you know, one-on-one or at least just, you know, advantageous situation. Yeah, and Del Rio talking about him being more of a penetrating and more of a disruptive player, speaks also, I think, to an aggressive style with some of their talent that they're going to favor as a defensive. style and as a defensive coaching staff. You mentioned Ryan Anderson, and his quote to you was,

I like Ryan Anderson. I think Ryan Anderson is a guy that plays with toughness and an edge that you covet defensively, so I appreciate his toughness. Those are a couple of guys that just stand out. He had mentioned Payne and Holcomb prior to that. You and I've talked about Anderson. I think it's you and me, the two of us that have talked about Ryan Anderson together. I thought he was the most improved player on the team from 2018 to 2019, or certainly you could debate that. What's very clear to me now through several of these coaches' conference Zoom calls with you guys on the beat is that Ryan Anderson's a 4-3 defense event. Let's start with that. Am I right about that? Oh, one million percent. We ended that debate definitively this week when we had linebacker coach

Steve Ruff on, and he was asked about working with that. Anderson, and he just said flat out, oh, I haven't worked with him at all. He's on the defensive line. You want to talk about those people. And, you know, we have already talked to various people, and, you know, Del Rio and Mills and others, but, like, it just feels like it's always kind of being like, yeah, we're still figuring out what to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, it has the trend that felt more about him as a, as a four-three-end, and to

your point about us talking about it, I wrote, I don't know, a month or so ago, sort of the idea of should they look, should they consider trading? Ryan Anderson, not because he's not potentially interesting, but because if he is a 4-3-end, where is he playing when you have all these other pieces? He's on an expiring contract, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I think both things can all be true. They can definitely like his toughness. He absolutely seems like a Del Rio type guy. I mean, Ryan Anderson definitely made big strides last year, and, you know, I could see him being an effective 4-3-end and run-stop. It's just when you have, you know, what are you doing? You take him chase you on.

off the field, are you taking Carrigan sweat off the field? I can imagine that playing Jonathan Allen as the end, you know, four-three situation with pain and ionitis or settle inside. So, you know, it's just hard to see where all these snaps coming from. Also in the conversation with Del Rio with regards to the edge, I figured I had to get in some sort of a Chase Young type question. I asked, you kind of how do you envision getting all these guys, you know, together? and, you know, he said, you know, we're going to swap players in and out.

We're not expecting anyone guy to have a massive workload. And he specifically, when I originally threw out the question, I mentioned the first three young Terrigan and sweat, and then later said, and if you want to add Ryan Anderson to that, go ahead. And then he made a point of saying, yeah, you only added Ryan Anderson to that. That's not how I'm viewing it. Ryan Anderson, to me, is part of it. But, again, it all sounds good.

I just don't understand. I just don't not see from the outside. how you realistically are giving all these guys the needed snaps to get out there. Well, I mean, and the answer when you ask that question, again, adding to the Ryan Anderson discussion, I like Ryan Anderson a lot, his toughness, the juicy brings off the edge, I think he's really going to flourish in a 4-3 approach, and he was the fourth one to get mentioned at defensive end in the question. So it's funny, you know, it's only August 7th, and we're not going to see any preseason games that are going to give us any clues. We're not going to watch enough practice that will give us any clues.

We're going to find out a lot about everything September 13th against Philadelphia. But I started thinking about, you know, the crowd that you're referring to along the defensive front. And I think there's a possibility that what you said, again, guy like John Allen. I also think Matt Ionitis can play as a 4-3D end. I think Ionitis and Allen and Payne are obviously and settle are part of that interior mix. But if you needed, Alan or Ionitis could actually play a 4-3 defensive end. Anderson's clearly a 4-3 defensive end. I think the Ryan Kerrigan conversation is an interesting one. He's on the roster, 11 and a half million bucks.

We know that they didn't restructure. It's a one-year thing. Rivera talked about, right, Ben. I got to get to know these guys before I start handing out contract extensions. Kerrigan, at times, we have seen him. Not a lot. We have seen him line up in passing situations inside. We have seen that once or twice.

I can't give you the game or the year. But I know it's happened before. and I wonder whether or not Del Rio considers Carrigan's versatility. Yeah, I think there's definitely any of you guys could potentially move around and play in different spots. I think that's absolutely part of the mix. You know, we just generally tend to talk in conventional terms, 4-3-3-4, 4-down linemen, and we picture, you know, beefy guys, whatever. But, yeah, I mean, you could, depending on the situation, you could easily have, you know,

you know, it's not inconceivable to think you could put young, sweat, carrigan out on the field somehow, together on the line, and let the defense figure out what the heck is happening, especially in an obvious passing situation, right? So there's all different things that can be done, and, you know, to me, all that sounds great and exciting and exotic, and you hope that the coaching staff and the players can maximize the situation and the opportunity.

You know, I just did the end of the day, if these guys want to play, you want to get your best guys out on the field. you know, it's good to have a rotation mix, especially on the line. You know, it's just a matter of, you know, how much you actually going to fit some of these guys. And, you know, I think that's interesting. But, by the way, the Karegan thing, I thought you were going to kind of say that, you know, is he the idea of, well, I mean, the idea of possibly moving him before, before the season starts simply because he is the expiring contract,

and he do have these younger guys. I don't think that's likely at this point, which is why I haven't written about it, but I thought you were going to go for a second. Well, I actually have given thought prior to no restructure of whether or not, you know, Ryan Carrickon could be either a trade or a cut casualty. Look, it's the only area of the team where there's perceived depth and a perceived crowd. You know, and you added to that in the offseason with Chase Young. So it'll be interesting.

You know, Matt Ionitis was the strongest and most, you know, productive. Clearly he sees Payne's talent. We know what John Allen, you know, is and then you've got two first round picks from the last two years on the edge. You know, it's really

it's exciting, actually, because the reason I'm excited, Ben, is because I feel confident that we're going to have, we're going to have that area of the team coached well. Right. Well, and also like, this is

like they could have like some dominant linebackers or maybe they could have a great tight end or something but like if the line and the quarterback were really these games are typically one and it appears on paper that they have a defensive line that maybe not this year but in the near future could be an absolute dominant force one of those groups that we know the NFL analysts get all you know geeked up about and start flabbering over because of how much the havoc they're causing on the pass rusher stopping the run, what have you. And that could be the absolute the game changer. I mean, if you want to view

this, if you want to say, what's the best hope for this team this year that you could imagine maybe they're contending for the playoffs, it probably is that defensive line has turned into a top five and helped turn that defense into a top five group. I'm not saying that's necessarily likely. I'm just saying there is at least

a timeline or something like that exists if K. Young comes in and just crushes off the bat and everybody else kind of goes with it. Ryan Kerrigan comes back from the injuries and so on. And that's what makes that group exciting for sure. We're talking, of course, to Ben Standing of the athletic here on the podcast. In reading through your entire interview with Del Rio, and staying focused on the personnel before we get to some of the personal thoughts

that he had on personal things that he's been involved in here over the last few months, he mentioned KPL, you know, Kevin Pierre-Lewis, who was signed as a free agent in the offseason. Tell everybody what he thinks about him and any other players that he singled out defensively. Yeah, well, I brought him up because when we talked to Del Rio as a group a month or so prior, he in talking about the linebacker, you know, an interesting group, it's a little bit of a confusing group, but an interesting group as to who's going to emerge. Del Rio said, hey, you guys are kind of sleeping on Kevin Pierre-Louis, one of these guys we just signed, and don't do that.

So this time I asked him, essentially, well, you mentioned him last time. Is there anybody else that we should keep an eye on? He didn't really, I don't think, dropped any names of anybody else, but what he basically said was, and this has been echoed by other coaches as well, is like it's sort of cliche to talk about competition, competition, competition. Of course, every coach on some level says that, but maybe I'm being, naive, but I do got to get the vibe here that it's a combination of these

are new coaching staff. There was no off-season essentially. And because this team is where it is, it's effectively in a rebuild mode, that I think everything, other than maybe a handful of spots, is really kind of open. And so I don't think, you know, I think we could all

probably guess right now with a fair degree of certainty what the starting lineup looks like or even the rotation, but I don't think it's necessarily as set as maybe we all think. it just simply because they don't know. They don't know what's going to, what exactly is going to happen.

They haven't seen these guys for months, and in the case of a guy like though, really, he's never seen most of his players in person. So I think he really just sort of emphasize sort of the idea of, you know, it's pretty wide open for him across the board. We did talk a little bit about Fabian Moreau.

I'll have some more on him and Holcomb and some separate, in some separate pieces on the athletic. And I think Fabian Moreau is a pretty interesting guy in the cornerback if he doesn't get discussed enough. But, yeah, I just think I'm not getting caught up in the idea that they think they have great pieces along the defense. But I do buy into the idea that they are very open to letting the players actually win jobs rather than just walking into camp and saying, you're the guy, you're the guy, you're the guy, you're the guy.

What do you think about Ruben Foster? Is he going to be ready to play early in the season or not? I don't know, man. I mean, you know, it's over a year now since he had the injury. So obviously, you know, torn ACL is, you know, not nothing, but we're in a modern era of medicine where these guys come back, you know, nine months, sometimes even less than that. I mean, when I say come back, I mean, being on the field,

not just, you know, getting clear to practice. He's not even there yet. So, you know, obviously, we haven't seen them. We've gotten relatively vague reports about what to expect. I'm basically going up the mindset. If he shows up, great. If not, this is their linebacker unit and move forward. I mean, they have enough pieces that are, you know, it's okay to interesting.

And that's the thing. Even if Ruben Fulter is clear, I mean, I don't know what he's, you know, we don't even know what he can do. It's similar somewhat to Alex Smith, right? I mean, just getting cleared isn't the same as, well, can you now go play in a football game? I don't know what that is. So I'm not factoring him into my thinking, but they at least continue to at least sound somewhat optimistic about his chances. He's doing when he's working hard in the meetings and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, kudos to him if he's trying to get back, and it sounds like he is.

But personally, I just not like thinking, oh, yeah, Ruben Fawzer comes back, look out because I'm not assuming that's happening. What did we find out this week from Ron Rivera about the quarterback situation? It was debated and discussed after, you know, his conference call interview earlier this week. You wrote about it. What do you think the big takeaways from the Alex Smith stuff and the Dwayne's and the Dwayne Haskin stuff was? Well, I'll be curious to get your reading of the T leaves, but on the Alex Smith stuff, I'll be honest. I feel like we're asking too many questions about this because I don't,

we've talked about this before. Like I just cannot comprehend how he's ever playing again. Now, look, obviously it's a fascinating story, a personal, you know, just of a human being going through this, you know, struggle to come back and, you know, not go beyond living with just the normal life on that leg that was ravaged with 17 surgeries, the infections and all that. But in terms of playing football, I mean, we keep bringing it up.

And Rivera keeps saying, if he's cleared, he'll be part of a competition, which leads to stories about if he's, you know, he'll be part of the competition of cleared. And it just feels like it's overstating the situation to me. This is, again, I'm not, I don't see him practice right now. I'm not a doctor. I don't know for sure, but it's hard for me to fathom how he becomes, how he ever gets clear for practice. It's a physical and then it's clear to actually go out on the field and take a hit. but in terms of the Haskins part of it, so I think the part that was interesting was

Rivera, in talking about Smith, said that Smith, you know, even though he's, you know, dealing with his own sort of side work, you know, probably already knows around 75% of the playbook because he's, you know, kind of a been there done that quarterback. So I had an assist from somebody to suggest that I could maybe ask for Wesleyan Haskins on the playbook

and if he's going to say that. So he said, oh, just, you know, probably just a little bit less than that. And I thought this was a very interesting moment because I think how, I think part of this job and part of it, and I say that as a writer, but also if you're a fan,

I think part of this job of paying attention to this team is reading the Tileys and understanding what is being said. And I think some people took what he said as, wait a minute, Dwayne Haskins is behind a guy who hasn't played football since 2018. He's also behind Kyle Allen, a guy who is not a real starting quarterback,

this league, what on earth is happening where I completely went the other way, which was that Ron Rivera has been sort of, you know, not crapping on Haskin, but he was kind of given him tough love early on after he took the job about it's going to be a competition, it's going to be open, and lately

I think because, and this is what Rivera and I talked about in the one on one I had with him recently, he laid down a challenge to Haskin's, and by and large, Haskins stood up to it. He got himself in better shape. He seems to be working hard. One of the knocks on Haskins was was he putting in enough work last year. It feels like it's happening.

And so accordingly, Rivera started to give Haskins, I think, praise. And saying he's only around 75, a little bit less than 75% of the playbook, is 100% not a knock. He's only a second-year quarterback in a new system. He had no off-season. It's his third system in three years. I don't think any of this means that Haskins is going to come out and kill it. I don't think Rivera could say that.

But he did not suggest that Wayne Haskins is behind. It was the opposite. I just think it's an interesting moment to, like, see how people reacted to that, whether they understood what we were everything or if they were thinking, oh, boy, this kid's not improving. We have another coach kind of, you know, saying so. My reaction was exactly yours, and you and I don't agree on a lot of things. That's not true.

We probably agree on more things than not, but that was exactly my reaction. When I heard him say, it was funny, I had people basically say, well, he was comparing your question was about a comparison to Kyle Allen and Alex Smith. I'm like, no, it was a comparison to Alex Smith's 75% comment. Maybe I misunderstood that. I said, because what I said, I mentioned Kyle Allen, but I said, I'm assuming Kyle Allen having been in the offense for two years, is fluent in the playbook.

We don't have to mention him on this front. Right. If he doesn't know the playbook 100% of what's he doing here, that's the whole reason he's here. Yeah, and I had people say, oh, no, no, no, no, he was, when he said, I don't think Dwayne is very far behind, he wasn't talking about far behind Alex Smith. No, I think, anyway, I agree with you. I think this was very complimentary.

I think it was very encouraging. I think it leads me to believe what I've believed all along, you know, in terms of just, you know, big picture that there is very little chance that Dwayne Haskins isn't going to be the starter or an opening day against Philadelphia. I just find that very difficult to believe. And part of that stems from, I just don't think Alex Smith is going to take a legitimate NFL snap ever again. I don't care what we're hearing about the momentum and the clearing of doctors

and the four days of progress and what he said about Alex Smith. I don't see that happening. I see Dwayne Haskins being a guy that's, by the way, put in the work. and I think it's acknowledged by the head coach. And I think we're going to see Dwayne Haskins, barring injury, be the starter opening day and be the starter for 16 games, barring injury, and if there is 16 games, that's what I think. And I think we're going to look back on this and say typical summer offseason conversations,

but to me this one is close to a slam dunk. So I guess this is where I'll push back slightly. I still think in the broader scheme of things, he needs to see more from Haskins and that he does like Kyle Allen and that there's a puncher's chance whether again we've talked about this before week one he just feels like he hasn't had enough time

for some had it for Dwayne to get ready or more likely you know maybe at some point in the season of Dwayne's struggles he wants to go somewhere else I just think that in this case I think that I think Ron is you know a lot of the things that these guys say to us are calculated they're not it isn't just

an honest assessment of what they think it it's an attempt to get to the player, because they know that no matter what players say, they hear these things, to get to the player of different messages. The message you was sending out in January and February was, hey, Rookie 8 2019 first-round pick, I get it. That doesn't mean squat to me. I didn't draft you. I'm new.

You need to show to me. And by the way, I've already seen what people, I've already heard what people think about you and you've got some work to do. Don't think you don't. I think he sent that message. And then once that message seems you take hold, he then, went back to, hey, good job. You listened. I appreciate that. I'm glad to see it. Now let's keep going. So I just, I think those things are slightly different, but yeah, logically,

he's the guy. And this is my thing with Alex Smith. Even if Alex Smith is clear, even if it's the greatest comeback story of all time. For the purpose of this team, what's the upside for playing Alex Smith over Dwayne Haskins or even giving him practice reps? You need to see what Dwayne Haskins can be because if he's not the guy, you probably have to draft somebody next year. But you need to make sure of that. You need to give him the necessary work, not just, well, we split the reps, and Alex played some games, and, you know, I don't know, this is where we're at. You know, you've got to figure this out.

Of all the people that spoke this week, you know, whether it was Russ, the linebackers coach, or the wide receivers coach yesterday, or Kendall Fuller or Brandon Sheriff, of all the people that spoke this week, what stood out to you? I mean, any of these people, any of the quotes that they had? Oh, good question. Brandon Sheriff was interesting.

You know, he's a guy. Whenever I go over to him in the locker, he's always willing to talk. He's just not willing to say anything. He's very much, you know, keep it to himself, you know, the classic offensive lineman doesn't want to talk about himself. And obviously, we have to things to talk about him, to talk about with him. namely the fact that he has a uh he's playing on the franchise tag didn't sign an extension he was pretty buttoned up on that but i thought he was fairly loose on some other stuff he he really had fun discussing his love for bushlight beer apparently there's a a fruit

version of this which sounds awful but apparently he's a he's a fan and and uh but just it was sort of interesting just to see him you know sort of being loose on on that front right a little bit. The question I asked him, which, you know, unfortunately he didn't really answer in the way I would hope was that, you know, you mentioned this, I think, earlier, you know, Rivera made a stance early on in his tenure that particularly when it was coming to Quentin Dunbar and Trent Williams wanting contract extension, that, hey, look, I just got here. I'm not giving anybody an extension until I get to learn more about you.

I don't want to make sure I'm doing the right thing by everybody involved. then, of course, we had a pandemic, and he didn't get that opportunity, but Dunbar and Trent Williams, they pressed the issues, ultimately leading to trades for them. Brandon Sheriff said nothing publicly, and he's playing on the tag, and so I asked Sheriff, this thing goes both ways. Did you feel compelled to have to learn more about this new regime before you signed on?

And like I said, he largely punted that. But I do think that's an interesting question with regards to the Sheriff. I mean, you know, we all just can sort of sit here and imagine, you know, they're trying to work out a deal. I don't know. I don't know where he's at. He says he wants to be here for, for, for a play his whole career here. No reason to necessarily doubt him.

But obviously it's been a larger chaotic scene. I don't think he's a dummy. And, you know, we'll see. I mean, he's going to make $15 million if you're on the tag. It's a lot of money, not just for a guard, but he's been hurt a bunch of the last two years. So that's interesting, I think, for the team. You know, you've also now lost Trent Williams.

If you were to lose Brandon Chair for the end of the year, you know, what's that due for your line. I think it's a really interesting situation that will see unfold. You know, the sheriff ultimately grow, interested enough of what's happening here to really push for a deal or, you know,

the two sides at the end of the year. I can't imagine it's another tag, even though we've seen that happen before. So, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens with that situation. Back to Del Rio real quickly. He's not real fond of the players that are choosing to opt out, is he?

No. He, you know, as a guy who was not just the former head coach, but a former player for 11 years, I asked him what did he think about guys around the league opting out. And I clarified, hopefully, they understood that, you know, Caleb Brantley at that point had opted out. Josh Harvey Clement did not. And Brantley opted out for what was deemed a high-risk situation

because of the coronavirus. So hopefully that's a different level of the other guys choosing to opt out for whatever reason. And when I asked El Rio what he thought, his response was, I've got views on this that I'm going to keep them myself because they would effectively not do my career any good or would sort of go against my professional world here. And, you know, that's the quote that a lot of people ran with because of the vagueness of it and the implications of what that means as a guy who was a former player, known to be a tough guy,

things like that. I mean, you can read into it what you want. And that led to some other questions with regards to some of his, is political views that he has been willing to share publicly on Twitter and feeling compelled to do that. And I don't know, to me, it ultimately felt like even though, yes, it would be great to just talk about football and all that stuff. But, you know, it's been interesting to watch this guy put himself out there

in the public square when it comes to the political game. We see people do it. We don't often see assistant coaches do it, I guess. Even if he's one that's a little more high profile. So it's been interesting to see that and knowing that a lot of his stances go against the player the one we assume that the players on his own team

we're going to have and some of them as it's obvious as it goes against it. So I think that's been interesting. His responses, but you can check out the opposite on the athletic. You know, talked in that vein of, you know, he's open to conversation about these things, but he basically wasn't afraid to,

he's not afraid to express this stuff. And if you're not open to conversation, can kiss his ass as he tweeted out about a month ago. But my favorite, the answer to the opting out, I have personal views that would probably not sit well with my professional occupation right now. I think I'll just leave it at that. Well, he's had personal views that may not sit well with a lot of people in his profession over the last couple of months that he is not backed off from expressing. He's interesting. Bottom line is, and Tommy and I were talking about this the other day, Ben, none of his players, none of his players who probably don't know him very well. We haven't

seen any sort of pushback to any of his social media stuff over the last month and a half. And we have seen players in many cities in many different sports push back against owners, against coaches and their views, other teammates' views. I find that interesting. Now, they don't have an outspoken player really on their team. You know, there's no Josh Norman type on the team anymore. But I think that that, you know, You know, who knows? For all we know, a lot of that could have been addressed behind closed doors, figuratively speaking. But if it was, I'd be really impressed.

I know you've got to run because you've got to do a radio hit, but I love catching up with you. I appreciate it. Have a good weekend. Always glad to talk, Kevin. I always appreciate that, man. Enjoy watching the golf. All right. Ben Standing, the athletic, everybody.

All right, that's it. Really enjoyed it. with Scott and Ben. Have a safe weekend. We will be back on Monday.