The Kevin Sheehan Show - The Annoying Name Game

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

Kevin joined by Ben Standig/The Athletic today off the top of the show to discuss the WFT branding/name roll-out that has become somewhat annoying to many in the fan base. At 33:00 they previewed tonight's preseason game against the Bengals and then at 58:00 Kevin weighed in on the Eagles blowout preseason loss last night to the Patriots. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Ben Standing will be on the podcast today here shortly with me to talk not only about tonight's game, but to also talk a little bit about the team name. We will get into that here shortly.

I wanted to remind everybody that because I didn't do a podcast yesterday, I am going to do one tomorrow morning early, recapping tonight's game. So I'll do a recap sort of post-game of the preseason game tonight. That should be out early tomorrow morning. Just a reminder to subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't already, it doesn't cost you a thing. Helps us. Also, rate and review it where you can, especially on Apple and Spotify.

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Totally worth it. And if you're going to subscribe, subscribe in the middle of reading like the teaser part of one of Ben's stories, where they give you like the first paragraph. And then they say, if you're not a subscriber, you've got to subscribe now. If you do that in the middle of Ben's story, he'll get credit for it and it will work out better for him. So we're going to start with something other than the game tonight. We're going to start with a topic that I did on radio this morning and my final hour of my radio show on the team 980, 6 to 9 a.m. And it has to do with the team name because I asked a question to callers

and I asked it on Twitter. I asked, are you tired slash annoyed with the Washington football team name conversation and the releasing or teasing of information from the team. You know, we got on Monday, we got that story from CBS Sports, which wasn't put out by the team, but it was a reaction to another episode of making the brand, which is the Jason Wright and the branding and the marketing and the business side of the organization. I think there are three episodes in. I don't know how many episodes they are planning, but they are trying to be very transparent as to what they're doing in the development of the new name and the new brand.

And so Jason Wright yesterday did a couple of shows. He did Grant and Danny at 1067 The Fan. He did some interviews. I think he did an interview with Michael Phillips. And there were a number of quotes in there about the process. that they're going through. And he did snap back a little bit on Twitter and with some of the interviews he did that the eight names that CBS Sports put out, that the list of their final three didn't necessarily come from that list. Which if you read the CBSSports.com story, you can see it's not sourced. It's not a report. It's more of a guess. Anyway, we bring Ben in right now.

And I'll start by saying, I am a little bit annoyed with the name conversation. I'm ready for football season to start. I hope that this ends when the games actually begin. I know that you texted me earlier this morning, which is why I called you up, because I thought it would be great to have you on the podcast today to talk about this and then the game tonight, which we will get to as well. But it sounds to me like you are also a little bit annoyed. and tired of the teasing and the releasing of bits and pieces of information about the new team name and brand.

Yeah, I mean, it's getting to be a bit interesting and not in a way that I find interesting. Look, I'm somebody that's written a lot about this process. When they went, when they announced, and a half last year, they were going to change the name, and then they went to the Washington football team. that led to me thinking could we simulate this for the athletic, and we did end up, we wrote this whole story, we talked to experts about the whole process. And I defend the process that is going to take 12 to 18 months. This is what the experts say, whether you're talking about a football team or a soda or tissue

paper or whatever it is, this is how long it takes their change of brand name. But now that they're using it for a lot of promotional aspects, which I respect. I'm okay with it. shows that this organization is taking full advantage of everything at their disposal and not just sort of, you know, being, I don't know, whatever they were doing before. They weren't doing a very good job, as we know, on 100 fronts with building the brand here and making a coherent product. But now that they're doing these videos, and this one in particular, we're like five or six months out, they tease that they're down to three. They do it in a way that led to some of this confusion.

They put these names up on a board to give, I guess, in theory, an idea of what potential names could be, right? That's the reason why you show specific names, you show fans reacting to it, which leads to then, as you said, this false reporting that there was a list of eight names that they now got it down to three, and the names must be from here. Now, obviously, that's blame on whoever it is that put that out there without knowing any information, but at the same point, it's going to lead to some of this kind of confusion. and now fans are getting confused. But even more than that, in the video, as we all saw, Jason Wright is talking to Ron Rivera and Martin Mayhew. He says what appears, well, we are led to believe to be three names that are then bleeped out.

And he and Rivera have a further conversation that's also somewhat bleeped out about one of these names. I don't believe for one second that they actually said any of the finalists in there. You're telling me this billion-dollar decision is being discussed, even if they're bleeped out, is being discussed that publicly. in the sense that

Jason Wright told me a few weeks ago there's only like a handful of people that know that are part of this process obviously starting with Dan Snyder and Tanya Snyder and a couple of executives

and the company that's helping them the marketing company is helping them. I don't even know that Ron Rivera and Martin Mayhew definitely know

but even if they do, you're telling me now that the camera guy knows that the people editing this film know that's starting to get a lot too many people who is a massive

massive decision here. I don't, I don't buy that. And also in the interview, he gave yesterday on a with grant and danny on one of six seven. Grant brings up, okay, so there's been some confusion about this, this final three did it come from this group list of eight? Can you help clarify it? And Jason writes, quote, is, quote, the final three or the list of three are not necessarily nested with the ones that

showed up in that video. His choice there to say the list of three, he's not even willing to say that they were actually discussing the three names in the video, which is, of course, the point I can't imagine they were. And that's what I'm saying. It feels like now they're going to tease this thing as too much. We're six months out. He said they're not changing the timeline, early 22. So I don't know.

I defend the process that it takes long time, but I think it's going to lead to. They may be getting a bit cute here with the level of tease. If they're going to, you know, if they're going to tell if there's three out there and they're not going to stay anything else and act like this was in that video, that may be a bit much. It's a good point that you may. made, by the way, that he didn't more likely than not say the three finalists. Again, let me be clear about what I know. They've got the name. They've got a plan B and a plan C in the event that the

name that they have chosen to move forward with somehow over the next month or two were to fall apart because somebody finds some story from, you know, 1927 where it was used in an insensitive way somehow. But they've got the name. And as I've said before, it's not going to be Washington football team or Washington Football Club or anything just Washington-centric. But

in watching this video, as you were talking, I pulled it up again, and there's no chance that he's sitting there ripping off these three names with a cameraman in there. Although maybe the cameraman for all we know is Marty Herney. You know, I mean, or Dan or Tanya.

Because it's, you know, not like, super professionally shot, but I bet it was like Charlie or somebody else out there that was shooting it. And he's probably, as he is bleeped out, and by the way, his mouth is covered up and shaded, he's probably just saying, so we've got and we've got and we've got to have that and we've got and we've got better of time about it. And Ron's going, yeah, I like all three of those or whatever he said. You know, you did write about this and you did do for the athletic. Of course, everybody knows Ben writes for the athletic, and I would urge everybody to subscribe to the athletic

and do so by reading one of Ben's stories, the beginning of it, and then clicking on to subscribe in the middle of one of his stories. That would be much better for him, and that would make me happy as well. I'm a subscriber, and I think the athletic does a phenomenal job. By the way, just as a complete digression and as an aside, They have been counting down on the athletic. The 100 greatest football players in NFL history.

It's a very interesting list. It's the athletic top 100 best players in football history, and I think they are now down to like the top 20. I think that's where they are. And there are a few Redskinned players on there already. Anyway, so he said yesterday, and I don't know if this was part of the, Grant and Danny interview or the one he did with Michael Phillips or whomever else.

But he said, and I've understood this for a while, he said, what we're trying to do this whole time is to show the process. One, because we think it's important enough to show the homework on this, to work with the fans, because as I mentioned in that video, this is stewarding folks's memories. This is stewarding generations of cheering and family connections and friend connections. I just think it's important to show your work. work sort of like long division. We go through this because we owe that to the fans.

In the next making the brand episode, we'll talk about a different criteria that helps us evaluate the process, closed quote. The playbook on a new brand rollout, especially for a McKinsey guy, a consultant, is to really be inclusive on how the process took place and make people. feel like by the time we get to 2022 and they announce the name, that they're very aware of how they got to it. Apparently, branding experts say that that will make people feel better about the name. And for those that aren't in favor of the name, it will make them feel more understanding of how they got to it. My personal feeling on this is that the context of this fan base and the name that

it had and the name that it lost and the 80-something years of being in this market and the passion that was associated with this brand, that there's no way to avoid a at least a 50-50 polarizing response. People will be outraged. They will be very negative. And then there will be some that will absolutely love it and be thrilled. And I don't really think showing your work is going to help or change that result. So my personal preference is enough of this, if you're not ready to reveal it because you still have T's to cross in eyes to dot, that's fine. But let us, you know, enjoy the upcoming season, immerse ourselves in the upcoming

football season. And at the end of it, when the season's over, hopefully after, you know, 12 and 5 and a playoff win and a playoff loss or something like that, then we can, you know, wait for you to reveal what the name is. But right now, I do think it's a bit much, it's a bit, as you said, either you just said it or you included it in your text to me. It's a little bit too cute. It's also, you know, it comes with just the annoying, constant consultant business speak over and over again that I'm not even sure that everybody, I'm going to read to you from the, I think he said this to Michael Phillips. This could have been part of the Grant and Danny interview.

There are things like grit and resilience and tradition, strength and unity, those types of things are timeless and shared by people, irrespective of whether or not they wanted the name to change in the first place or they were itching for it to go. And irrespective of which direction they typically like for a new name or moniker, those things unite. And so as long as we create a brand that embodies those in deed and not just in word, I think we're going to be all right in the long run. We really are. As long as we're buttoned up on all the other process stuff, so it's not a messy-ass rollout, we're going to be in good shape. That's about as plain speak as he gets, and I understand what he's saying there at the end.

We have to be buttoned up on the process stuff, so it's not a messy-ass rollout. One of the things they want to be completely buttoned up and sure about is that, when they give the name that the next day, there's not a story in the Washington Post about how, you know, the brigade was used to describe some sort of minority group during World War II or something. They've got to be buttoned up on all that, so it's not a messy-ass rollout. I do understand that. I just don't think what they're doing here. And by the way, Ben, they're not really giving much information about the process.

It's just more sort of teasing. I hope it stops when the game stopped. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they've announced how many of these making the brand videos there will be. Again, it is only August. They're not revealing this until early 22, presumably once the season end. So let's be optimistic and say February. Or, you know, I mean, that's a lot of proof.

Well, I just think, you know, they could say to make the playoffs, whatever. Well, and I also think it'll be done maybe when people aren't focused on things like the playoffs in the Super Bowl, too. Yeah, right up that after the NFL season, presumably, right? So you would imagine there's going to be more of these videos and potentially several more. You know, I don't know if it's a weekly thing or hopefully not, but whatever it is, that would be a lot. But there will be more. You know, I think one thing that's important to note is obviously Jason Wright and his group inherited all these problems. and people keep telling, I keep seeing people on Twitter saying,

this is ridiculous, it's taking so long, the Indians did it in two minutes. I mean, it goes to show the difference, it goes to show the problems this organization's had. The Indians didn't do this in two minutes. I don't know really much about their process, but one, they weren't forced to, I guess, change their name, or they didn't feel compelled to change their name mid-stride of this. They stayed with Indians, and then one day they went to Guardians,

and that was out there. They did a say, I guess they were going to change the name, But I would imagine that as a reasonably thinking organization, they probably in advance of all the turmoil, had thought, like, hey, one day we may actually have to change this. Right. So let's get ahead. Yeah. Here, they were definitely, it was beyond getting caught flatfooted.

They were starting from ground zero, and Jason Wright had to take that process, which takes a long time. And then on top of it, they had this interim, interim name. So at least like with the Indian, they pulled the Band-Aid off in one day, they go, from Indians, the guardians, whatever. Here, we're going to have two, you know,

two full seasons of being this other name that is probably not going to be the main name. And they have to sort of go through this process in broad daylight because there was nothing being happening, there was nothing done in advance. So he does have to inherit and have to inherit that. And I think they're trying to take advantage of, well,

okay, we're going through this. Let's, let's, how do we make, you know, lemonade out of a leaves of lemons? And they've come up.

with this plan. And like I said, I've kind of defended it for the most part. I just, you know, this level of the tease is starting to feel like you're playing with people a little bit. It would be how I interpret it for my seat. By the way, I think it's a really good point about Cleveland. They were probably prepared for this at some point. Now, you know, to a certain degree, I do think that the Washington football organization had a plan in the event that this ever came to be. And I think the plan was the Washington Warriors. And then there was a lot of stuff related to that name. And now we know that it wasn't going to be the name anyway after, you know, further review. But it was the name, I believe, that the owner and others felt like if

they ever had to switch it, they would switch it to. But that's beside the point. You're probably right. Cleveland was probably ahead of where Washington was when they decided to change the name. in Washington's case sort of being forced to change the name. I think there's something else. So I think they're following the playbook on this. They're attempting to follow the rollout of a new brand playbook. I don't think it's going to be impactful. That's my thought.

I think that the context and everything about this fan base and this situation is maybe different than the rollout of like a new detergent. So I would say that it's not going to help. I do think that the actual day in which they choose to reveal the new name, the way that's handled will be important. You know, Pauley, a longtime caller and a friend of the show and the podcast. You know, he brought up something that others have brought up to me, and I sort of feel the same way, and it's that for a lot of us, it's like, you know, Jason Wright is obviously

highly intelligent, very successful. You know, I am sure he is handling this in a way that's super hyper professional in every way. And he certainly seems a lot more thoughtful about everything that I bet Dan would be and the, you know, and the dummies that were there before. With that said, he just got here five minutes ago. And so, you know, there is a little bit of animosity from some, like, I don't need Jason Wright and Julie Donaldson and a bunch of people that have barely been here and don't understand, you know, the, what it really feels like to be a Washington Redskin, a Washington skins, a Washington football team fan. They don't have that, you know, as part of their DNA.

It's sort of hard that they're, you know, significantly involved in this process. Now, they've tried to make it seem like, you know, ex-players and fans and long-time fans, and they've tried to make it certainly appear to be inclusive, and maybe it is. But let me get to my point. My point would be in March or late February, whenever it is that it happens, man, they ought to trot Coach Joe up there. And Coach Joe should be on one, you know, arm, you know, on the right side, you know, it's Art Monk and Joe Thysman.

And on the other side, it's Daryl Green and Brian Mitchell and Rigo's going to come up with some sort of thing. Like, you know, it may not be what it, but this isn't. They better have people that are trustworthy and people that know what this means and know what the, you know, the revealing of this new name and how, you know, people are going to react. Because it's going to be polarizing. I've already said, and I think I said this to Tommy the other day. This is not for me. You know, Ben, to a certain extent, it's not for you. This is truly a decision that's going to be targeted on the next generation of fans.

It's not that they've bailed on, you know, older, longer term, middle-aged or much older fans, but they realize that that group, you know, isn't as open to this and probably won't love whatever it is that they pick. and the only thing they care about is winning. And I've already learned through multiple conversations with people. You know, in sports, in organizations like this one, they've got to figure out how to appeal to a younger demo that cares less, not that they don't care at all, but cares less about wins and losses

and cares more about things that maybe aren't important to some longer-term older fans. They're not necessarily targeting us. They're targeting a younger fan base that wants fan-friendly experience at a stadium and a new stadium and a cool name and investments in other things like e-sports and Formula One and soccer teams. And this is what a lot of what, you know, I'm reading about, you know, current U.S. professional sports teams. are thinking about. And, you know, I've been told the Miami Dolphins, they haven't won anything in a long time, but they're very successful right now as a business, in part because of their investment in

Formula One, in part because that new stadium, it's not, you know, however old it is, is apparently incredibly fan-friendly for younger fans, especially younger fans with families, with young kids. So these are things that, you know, Jason Wright and the business people are going to be focused on. But that reveal day in February or whenever it comes, it better not be Dan, Tanya, and Jason up there. You know, I, it's got to be, I think they're going to be surrounded by Coach Joe and a few other of our favorites. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would say, based on having talked with Jason, right about this and others, like, everybody wants Red Wolves, Red Wolves, Red

Wolves, Red Wolves, right? That feels like that's the most popular name in their Twitter world, another than that. Forget the fact that it's been sort of apparent that's not going to be the name for a variety of reasons, trademark among them. It's also like completely missing the point of what's happening. That's naming the team. That's not what they're doing. They're not naming a football team. They're naming a brand. The video even says making the brand. He's come out and said

this is more than just the football team. This is about investments in other things, this new stadium that the business is going to go in that stadium. And you mentioned the dolphins with their extra businesses. That's part of this as well. It isn't just that. So it's not just a name of this thing. It's a broader term.

So, look, again, I think that in a lot of ways, it's somewhat impressive with what they're doing in a relatively short amount of time in the sense that they've made it look at a professional operation, at least from a PR perspective, which is not something that obviously was even close to happening here for most of the last 20 years. So kudos to them for that.

And the things that you and I are talking about, maybe a little too cute and teasing and whatever, that is at least, at least they are doing something to acknowledge that they need to appeal over people. They're trying to get parts of the fan base that have disappeared. They're trying to get people engaged. I mean, how many times do we hear fans go crazy for Jason Wright

if for no other reason that he's not Bruce Allen? That Bruce Allen never talked to anybody. Dan Snyder, obviously, is a recluse, more or less. Like, that things don't happen. and Jason Wright is talking to them, and people feel warm from that. They feel welcome. It doesn't matter to them that it doesn't, like, it's all sort of a bit of a show because that's what PR is.

It's a show. They're not really asking for their opinion yet. They're doing marketing surveys and tech marketing, and they're doing these videos or they're showing fans. They're not, they're not winged the decision on what, you know, Joe, Joe fan, 74 things, or Rigo lover, you know, 44 things or anything like that. Obviously, in totality, all these things, kind of. this sort of matter, but that's not even the point.

The point is they're making the fans think that they care. And I'm not even the argument that they don't. I'm not saying that it's a complete for show. They're at least trying to do something. And I give them credit for that. It's just like, you know, at some point here, it's like, all right, well, let's, let's, you know, either tell us the name or maybe, you know, just kind of keep doing your thing behind the scene.

And by the way, whatever name they pick is not going to go over well. I think we all can imagine that's going to be the case. Nothing is going to board perfectly. A good chunk of the fan base will hate anything no matter what. Others will, even if they're open-minded, it'll say, I don't know, that seems a little lame. It'll sound weird. Eventually people will get over it. I'll move on, and that'll be that.

But, yeah, that rollout's going to be important. And, you know, we've got, unfortunately, just right now a few more months of this, or who knows what else is coming, but there's going to be more, I imagine, teasing and PR work by people who kind of know what they're doing. Well, it's going to get rough for them if they have episode five of making the brands scheduled for the Monday after the opener against the Chargers and they lose the game 35 to 17. You know, you can't do that. They've got to be a little bit sensitive to the fact that once these games start, this is their primary product. This is what people care about the most. And it's

going to be a little bit difficult if they're teasing more information about the team name two days after, you know, losing to the Chargers and two days before a game against the Giants in week one. Look, I think there's a big difference with what they're trying to do in the playbook that they're trying to follow with respect to new branding. I don't think this is a new Procter & Gamble dish detergent. I think it's totally different. I hope it ends when the game start. And I have a feeling that it might. There may be some reports that come out that they may have to respond to, but I hope that the process of making everybody aware of how they're coming to name this team and create this brand, I hope it's less of a tease and less of a

release when the game start. But that's just me. All right, when we come back, let's get to tonight's game. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Eight o'clock tonight, Washington and Cincinnati, the weather is going to be maybe terrible. I have no idea, Ben, what kind of crowd they're going to have tonight. It's the first opportunity for a real crowd since they played the Giants in the Chase Young game at the end of the 2019 season. Thank God they lost that game. If not, we'd have Andrew Thomas. I don't know who we'd have.

But the Giants had Andrew Thomas and we got Chase Young. And that was a rather significant game. and may go down is one of the more significant moments in the NFC East over the next 10 years. Anyway, is there something before we get to, what would you like to see? Is there something that you think is important to see competitively? I mean, look, obviously you don't want a floppy performance other than some miss tackle last week. I thought they actually were just, you know, pretty, seemed like a pretty coherent effort on both sides of the ball. It didn't really look like a preseason game as I sort of thought about it.

I mean, in the sense of, you know, there's a relatively well-executed game. So more of that, obviously, that'll show that they're, you know, getting, their practice habits are forming and they're, you know, moving in a positive direction. You know, we'll see how long the starters play. The offensive thought did well last week under Ryan Fitzpatrick, but ultimately they didn't get in the end zone on two drives. Dustin Hopkins missed the field goal, so they should have had some points, but he missed the field goal.

Let's say they get four or five drives tonight. Okay, you've got to kind of get the end zone, right? I mean, for all the talk of offensive progress, it would be nice to actually punch it in. You can't just be a hypothetical. Again, they're not going to show a real game plan, you know, and we'll see if everybody's going to be playing other than Sammis Reyes right now and probably tomorrow, Hemingway. We don't know if anybody else is going to be out there,

both in the concussion protocol program. So, yeah, for all this, for all the new pieces, for all the Fitzpatrick talk, you know, can the offense actually, you know, punch it in. And then for the defense, you know, sort of the same thing. Last week they had a nice drive to start the game, and then New England did move the ball down to the field to get a field goal on the next drive. You know, can they, if they're on the field for four or five drives, you know, can they deliver, you know, some three and out to hold one drive.

Again, you know, no Joe Burrow, so it's not like it's going to be a full-throated Bengals attack. So we'll have to keep that in mind as well. But, you know, I do basic stuff like that. I don't go into these things with, like, massive, like, expectations, obviously for certain individual players. You know, if you growth, we talk about the roster battles, that's important. But, for a broad perspective, like, you know, let's just see the starters be more effective than they were last week. Yeah, I mean, I think when I asked the question, I was thinking more about individual battles.

But you gave a good answer because one of the things last week that was important to me, was to see, you know, a competitive, disciplined together group. And I think for the most part we did last week, but that's beside the point. I think it's a big night for Dustin Hopkins. I think it's a big night for him. And if the weather's really bad and the field's really bad, really bad, if the field is really bad, excuse me, maybe he gets a bit of a pass tonight. But I think he's going to be the kicker on opening day.

I'm not suggesting he's going to lose his job over the next two weeks. but I still think there's pressure on him tonight. Even if he still has total support of the coaching staff, he has to understand that if he goes out and he's O for two and one of the misses is a 34-yarder that he hooks, that they're really going to be concerned. I mean, Ron Rivera can't give the same answer late night tonight if Hopkins misses two or three kicks

and the field's not a mess. He can't give the same answer that, you know, you know, well, we're getting used to this new operation, and old cheese, you know, Cameron Cheeseman's snap has got a little bit more velocity. He's going to have to then at least express some concern. And I would imagine there's a chance somebody would be brought in, you know, next week to compete, to maybe push him a little bit before the final preseason game. Do you agree or disagree? Well, certainly a big night, I agree at that. By the way, as somebody who's written about this new field that they put in, feel better.

be an excuse. I mean, it looks like as a forecast. It has been raining all morning, and it's raining last night. It's raining the last few days. But, you know, they apparently have this new system for first major renovation and there's the stadium open, and the drainage is obviously a huge deal. So, a floppy field. I mean, again, it looks

like it's not going to be raining game time. You know, it should stop this morning. So hopefully that's not a big deal, so that will be something going. That's a separate issue of the field is kind of a mess. But that aside, yeah, I think Dustin Hopkins needs to make some kicks. It is I'm not a kicking expert by any stretch,

but we've not talked to Rivera, we've talked to Tress Way about this, and they talk about timing issues. They don't seem to make it a big deal. Okay, I mean, I guess I'm not smart enough to know what is taking so long on a timing issue, right? I mean, they've been going at this for weeks, so you would think you'd be able to figure this out.

So look, at the same point, there's games in the course of a year where a kicker misses two kicks, and the next week comes out and it's three. So if Hopkins does that tonight, we'll move on, and that'll be that. But yeah, if he misses some kicks tonight, even one perhaps, that might be enough for people to say, hey, what are we doing here? And then the question is, will they actually bring somebody in?

You know, it's possible they wait until the cuts down to the 53, so they see if other kickers get released. But, yeah, at the same point, this is definitely a big night for him. It's a big night for a lot of guys. But his is pretty obvious. It's pretty cut and dry. You make the kick or you miss the kick. It's not a matter of, you know, you had one bad path protection play. if you're an offensive lineman, maybe you were really good on 10 other ones.

You've got to be a couple field goal opportunities a game. You've got to make them, especially after what happened last week. Let's talk about some of the other guys that it's big for. I think that this punt returner job is also, you know, either the sixth receiver or the seventh receiver on the final roster. Carter and Milne both had big weeks last week. Sims Jr. got one opportunity, didn't do much with it. But, you know, I was thinking about this, and I talked about this this morning, Ben. You know, with the defense, you know, that they hope to have, you hope that there are five, six punts a game that you're receiving. And you'd like to get more out of them than you did

last year when you finished 27th in average punt return yardage with, you know, many muffs and fumbles, not only from Sims Jr., but from Isaiah Wright as well. So this is a big opportunity. They're going to hopefully be on the receiving end of five, six, seven punts a game if the defense is what we think it is. And maybe with, you know, the opportunity to field it with really good field position, to really make an impact in the game. So I think that this is going to be settled here over two preseason games more so with

return game than even in practice. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, the return game in practice is not much to see. There's some basic fundamentals going on, but they're not, you know, there's not a full-throated effort here that they're not getting hit or anything like that. And obviously that's a pretty, you know, it's a very different simulation in practice versus a game. And yeah, it's going to be a huge component of the punt return, also the kick return. I mean, DeAndre Carter, she made me pick right now.

He was the guy that I put in on my 53 ahead of season. Sims, the head of Dax Milne, but I don't think it's inconceivable that, you know, Milne, who I think he's continued to impress in camp, could somehow sneak on. I think a lot of that also factors into what happened with Antonio Gansy Golden. Is he making this team? He's not in the return game. He would be the six receiver. He was a fourth-round pick a year ago.

He essentially had a red shirt working year because of injuries and was a slow to adjust coming from Liberty. And he's had some good moments in camp, but, you know, at the same point, I haven't been thinking to myself, well, he's the same year. second coming that they've got to keep him, but he's got obviously a really good size. So Rivera, the group drafted him last year in the fourth round. Typically, you think that guy's going to stick around. So if he does as a six, then you have to keep a seventh, which is interesting in

itself because now you have to sort of take away from a different position. But if somehow gained the goal, and they decide to move on for him, which in my head would be more of a trade than a relief, then what does that mean? Is it just the six receivers? Or could you even keep two of these guys? I would think some of these receivers, clear waivers, land on the practice squad, and then you have some depth in that way.

But it is a fun battle for sure. I would throw Danny Johnson into the kick returner component of this. And, you know, I'm not going to discount Stevenson, but obviously he had struggled last year. He's had a – I think John was speaking at defense camp. But, you know, I feel like Carter and Milne would probably be my lean right now, but we'll think. He talked about Jared Patterson getting opportunities in the return game.

Will that be more kickoff returns, or could you see him being back on a punt return? I would think kick. I don't know, you know, can't watch every single, you can't watch every single snap in practice to some degree. I don't know if I saw Patterson actually back there before kick. He was on some kick coverage duties, but I would think it would be a kick return more than a punt return. But that's another point as well. If Gerra Patterson is making this team, and I'm kind of, I think you're of the belief that he probably is, and I think I'm there as well.

but are you keeping four running backs? I don't know. That seems like a lot of respect to when Curtis Samuel is on the team and he's going to get some work out of the back bill too, but if you're keeping Patterson and Barber, one way to sort of justify that is having Patterson help you as a kick returner, you know, do more. So we'll see, but they haven't, you know, they've got to ramp that up. He wasn't really being used that way in college.

And like I said, I haven't noticed him getting a lot of work in that regard when we're out there. So that will be the kind of thing to see in a game like this. does that actually happen? Because, yeah, if you're going to justify four running back, special teams can be done in other ways besides a returning game, but you think if you'd have a running back, he'd be one of those guys who'd be in the mix.

You can check out Ben's 53-man roster projection on the athletic. Yeah, this is going to be, you know, like there are things that we're probably not even focused enough on, like quarterbacks. I think Kyle Allen has something to play for here tonight. I think he has to reaffirm in reverend Scott Turner's minds that he's healthy enough and that he's the guy that, you know, they really like because there is a chance. I don't, you know, I think it's remote, but there's a chance, especially if you're going to keep four running backs and you're going to keep a returner, but you don't want to get rid of Gandy Golden, that, you know, you could end up carrying two quarterbacks. I mean, I don't see that happening, but there's just a lot of, there's a lot of wiggle. room here, you know, because I think Patterson is going to be on the team and I think they're going

to keep four running backs. I do. I mean, I don't think they're going to expose them. And John Kimes said something to me this morning on the radio show, which is true is, you know, we've done this before in the past. And every team has a player where their fan base or their media base is saying, oh, you can't put him on waivers, he'll get picked up immediately. And then they're not. But I think Patterson is different because unlike, you know, some of the big names of pre-season's past, the Marco Mitchells and the Marcus Masons, whatever, this guy, there was a lot of interest in him. I'm surprised he wasn't drafted, and then there was a lot of interest in signing him as an undrafted free agent. I think, you know, if he plays well again tonight, I don't think they can expose him

because I think they would lose him. Yeah, I mean, I would just say, like, we focus on him being an undrafted player, but it's important to look at how they paid him. They didn't pay him. an undrafted for a player. He basically got the same contract as Dax Milne minus, I think of like a last year, maybe there's some different bonuses, but like from a salary perspective, like they paid him like he was drafted. Now, so obviously this is a distinction, draft versus undrafted, and we therefore sort of label in our head the players different ways, but I think they viewed it as

they drafted Patterson, they paid him like they did, and I think he's done enough to show that, you know, I imagine that they think other teams made a mistake, and not going to let them get another chance at him. But look, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of ways to play this game. And, you know, the practice squad rules being what they are again, where you can have two guys come up every week and be part of the game day roster is huge for stuff like this.

You know, it allows you to maybe be lighter at another position where you think maybe we can clear some guys through waiver, have those players come up through the practice squad scenario. So we're still having our full complement in another position and then kind of go from there. There's ways to play this out in the game system. And I'll also note, and I wrote about this in my story, that all the decisions typically, I think people are thinking of it

just in terms of the 2021 season, and I don't think that's how they're viewing it. I think they're also viewing it as, yes, we just won the division last year. Yes, people are optimistic about our chances. But at the same point, this was a three-win team not that long ago. And most of the players here are young. They did try to get Matthew Stafford, but by and large, they didn't do a lot of all-in-type moves. they are, this thing is about building a sustained winner, not just how do we beat the chargers in week one. And I think some moves will go accordingly, which includes saying like,

hey, we think Jared Patterson can help us beyond this year. We think Sam McReyas is somebody we want to invest in beyond this year. Maybe the same thing with a Gandy Golden and so on. And I think that's something you got to keep in mind when you're doing your own projection. Yeah, especially when you refer to Jared Patterson as Darren Sprouls-like and then adding to that the contract, as you described, which also, you know, reflects that there was competition for Patterson, which is why, you know, you should, you should, you know, think that if he were exposed, he'd get picked up. So I'm curious as to where you are right now on Left Guard. Is it Schweitzer or Flowers? Well, it's funny. I think it was either on the radio, like last week or the week before,

I'd lose track of time. You told me, I think, that one of your biggest surprises, was that Flowers was not the starter. Right. Because you thought that was coming in, and I was like, well, he hasn't been getting into the rep. So, I don't know. Well, since then, he's been getting a lot of the reps. This week, I feel like he's almost been exclusively with the ones with Schweitzer's the two. Now, but they are trying to give people different looks and different opportunities.

So we'll see. Maybe next week it goes back the other way. But, you know, from a trend perspective, it does feel like Flowers is heading in that good direction. and you'd have to wonder if you were in the Schweitzer side of the thing. You know, good. I mean, look, it was a big surprise here a couple years ago. It obviously completely didn't work in Miami. But he's back here and different coaching staff,

but they seem to like what they see. And look, ultimately, at the end of the day, you're going to need to have a couple of guys, in part because we know Brandon Sheriff's history is you get hurt and miss us some games. And when that happens, they're going to need Schweitzer and Flowers to play. So, you know, good to, you know, get everybody as much work as possible. And having options is not a bad thing.

It feels like the trains is heading towards flowers away, but we'll have to see how this game goes and what happened over the next couple weeks. There were a lot of questions this week about William Jackson III, a massive free agent signing in the offseason. And, you know, a lot of discussion among fans and media members and a lot of questions for Ron specifically about, you know, Jackson being more of a man corner in Cincinnati and Washington playing a lot more zone than man last year. and it seemed to me that people thought, at least based on the questioning, that Jackson's been struggling. How do you see it? It is a good question. Like, the practices are designed in many ways to favor the offense.

I mean, just like the rules in the NFL favor receivers. You know, there's some of that as well. Again, the defense can't exactly hit anybody. He is going up against Terry McCorn a lot. That's not an easy situation. he's got, he's had Simone, what was a quad injury,

I want to say, a little, a little minor thing that kept him out a little bit. So he has been a little bit slow. It doesn't feel like he's had some, wow, this guy has been an amazing player,

you know, or anything in camp. So to some degree, it does feel like there's a bit, a bit of a struggle. And he talked about how, you know, he was in,

in more man concept with Cincinnati, and that here it's very different because they're using more zone, um, uh, context. So to that end, it does feel like there's been a bit of an adjustment, and that's, I think,

one reason why Rivera has been getting a lot of questions about it, because I think there's some echoes of the Josh Norman situation where, you know, he went from Rivera's tone system, and they were trying to use him in a different way here, and it didn't, you know, didn't quite ever really work out, especially towards the end. So obviously it's very early for that. There's no reason to really question the William Jackson situation at all, but, yeah, I wouldn't say that he's had some great camp, and then, That's probably why.

Look, I think also we're all trying to figure out what to do and what to talk about. And it's been largely a quiet camp, no big injuries, you know, the quarterback controversy that we're supposedly going to get, never materialized. You know, so, okay, well, what else can we talk about? Okay, William Jackson, maybe he's had the best camp, relatively speaking to expectations. So what about that? I think it's a lot of for that. But, yeah, I mean, it's been not some, like, robust.

Wow, this guy's an absolute shutdown court. But we'll see it. Once the game's happened, they're putting out a real game plan and they can hit people, and we'll see if things are different. Yeah. I do want to mention this one thing because I got a text from somebody who is familiar with people in the Bengals organization. And I will just tell you that I don't think that they made a great effort to keep Jackson

and they weren't displeased to see him go. That doesn't mean that he's not going to be a great player and a great fit here. But I just thought I'd mention that. I think the other thing, too, that was really interesting from this weekend. I listened to a lot of the Rivera press conferences was that with all of the questions about William Jackson and man defense and zone defense, Rivera revealed a lot. He talked about wanting to be much more balanced defensively. They played too much zone last year. You know, depending on the stats that you follow, they played anywhere between 60 and 75% of the time in zone coverage on pass downs.

And so he wants to be more balanced. He wants to be more unpredictable. It's one of the reasons they targeted William Jackson. They wanted another man cover guy. Now, I thought Darby did a pretty good job last year. Jackson, they think, is even better and worth the money. So we'll see. But I think one of the things that came out of that conversation

was a lot of discussion about man coverage versus zone coverage. And I think the perception from a lot of you is that if you've got a really good pass rush and you can play man coverage, well, it gives you more time to get home. And that can be true. But really, it's always about matchups. There are a lot of quarterbacks and a lot of offenses, you know, quarterbacks and receivers, that drool when they see man coverage, drool when they see press man coverage.

So it's really typically a matchup thing. The most important thing in any defensive coordinator will tell you this is the goal for a defense is to totally make an offense one-dimensional. And that's the bigger issue for Washington this year. In my mind's eye, they have to become a more consistent run-stopping team. If they shut teams down from a run defense standpoint and they make them one-dimensional, then with that pass rush and any kind of coverage behind it, they're going to be awfully good. Stopping the run this year and making teams one-dimensional, to me, is the key to taking that next step from being a good defense to being an elite defense.

Anyway, what else? You got anything else? I hear it to the actual game day experience, right? I mean, it's not the biggest deal in the world, but when they score a touchdown, what happens then? Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. But I wasn't thinking that this was going to be a big-time crowd tonight. Yeah, I mean, obviously, not so much, but whatever. Yeah, we might get hail to the Redskins with certainly some people.

Apparently, there was some of that New England last week. Some fans up there were singing it. Thank you. At Ben Standing on Twitter. Subscribe to the athletic, please. It's totally worth it. Ben's the best. And I will talk to you actually on Monday on radio.

Yeah, let's talk about that after we hang up. Okay. Sounds like we might be rescheduling that Monday visit with Ben. That's fine. Up next, last night's preseason game, many of you crushing me for my pick of the Eagles to be in competition in the NFC East. I'll respond after these words from a few of our sponsors. Last night, the lone preseason game was a blowout. The Patriots beat the Eagles 35 to nothing. And for many of you, it was an opportunity to reach out to me on Twitter and tell me what a moron I am for thinking that Philadelphia could compete for the NFCE's title, which is what I believe and mentioned earlier this week. And nothing about last night's game changes my mind, nor should it. if they end up not competing in the division as a competitive team, it's not because they got beat by the Patriots 35 to nothing last night.

The Eagles didn't play most of their starters last night, and their starting quarterback, Jalen Hertz, was rushed to the hospital with a stomach infection. I have not heard anything new about Hertz. The only thing I saw reported was Adam Schaefter saying that it was not COVID, that he tested negative for COVID. Actually, before I get back to the Eagles and the result, Cam Newton and Mac Jones, that battle is one of the more intriguing, you know, NFL training camp preseason topics.

And I had Ross Tucker on the podcast. He thinks Cam Newton's going to be the starter on opening day. I had Mike Jones on the radio show from USA Today. Mike thinks that Cam Newton's going to win the job as well. And Cam Newton went eight of nine last night with a touchdown. and no picks. And Mack Jones apparently looked good, too. I did not watch the game last night. But it'll be interesting to see which way Belichick goes. Anyway, so first of all, I don't care that the Eagles lost a preseason game, 35 to nothing, with the players they played in the game.

I think there were a couple of defensive starters that played and maybe a couple of offensive starters, but they barely played, and their quarterback wasn't there. and they didn't treat this game as a tune-up. Maybe they will in their final preseason game. Who knows. Now, 35-0-0. If you're the new coach of the Philadelphia Eagles, if you're a fan in Philadelphia,

you're like on the new coach. You're like, dude, you got to be competitive. Even if you're not playing any of your starters or most of your backups, you can't get beat 35-to-nothing in the pre-season. And maybe there were signs that Nick Siriani, the new head coach, is not doing a great job at this point.

Maybe there are signs that they are disorganized and maybe there's some stuff going on in Philly. I have no idea. But let me speak to the result because the result does not matter. And I went back very early this morning before the radio show and did just a little bit of research on the last two pre-seasons, which were 2018 and 2019, because there wasn't a pre-season. season last year, just to give you a sense of what these results mean or don't mean. In 2018, I looked at all of the teams that lost preseason games by 17 or more points. I just figured a 17 point loss or worse is a legitimate blowout. It isn't necessarily equivalent to 35 nothing last night,

but it's a blowout. And what I found was that There were 11 of those games that ended in 17 point or greater margins. And seven of the losers of those games went on to have winning regular season records. Six of the 11 went on to the playoffs. And one team, the L.A. Rams went to the Super Bowl that year. The L.A. Rams in 2018, lost to the Ravens 33 to 7 and to the, the Saints, 28 to nothing. They got out scored in two preseason games 61 to 7 and went to the Super Bowl. Six of the teams that lost preseason games by 17 or more points, like ugly one-sided

preseason blowouts, went to the playoffs. In 2018, there were only eight blowout games of 17 or more. two of the teams that suffered those blowouts and preseason and the preseason games won their division. This stuff means nothing. Nothing. I mean, Devante Smith made his debut last night, two catches, 19 yards. I don't know how he looked. They didn't play most of their starters, and the starters that did play played for like a series. And the starting quarterback didn't play.

I don't know which, I mean, for New England, Cam Newton and Mack Jones played a lot. Damien Harris and Sony Michelle combined for 13 carries. Those are their two big running backs. Nikiel Harry played, James White played. They had a lot of their starters play. New England did last night. Philadelphia didn't.

Philadelphia last week actually played their starters more, and Jalen Hertz was in the game against the Steelers, and they scored on four of their first. five drives in the first half. And that still doesn't mean much. Anyway, for those that reached out to me on Twitter and mocked me for saying that Philadelphia, or any team in the NFC East can win the division, and Philadelphia is one of those teams. And I talked a lot about what Philadelphia was, Jalen Hertz was at the end of last year. And I've already, yes, I've already played over seven plus 120 on Philadelphia.

Last night's result isn't changing my mind, not in the least. All right, that's it for today. I will have a podcast out, as I mentioned, at the top of the show. I will have a podcast out. First thing tomorrow morning, recapping tonight's preseason game, the things I like, the things I didn't like, a few more observations from the game. Won't be a long podcast. I may have a guest, not sure, but that will.

will be out tomorrow morning. Until then, have a great rest of the day, and enjoy the game as much as you can, any preseason game. Back tomorrow.