The Kevin Sheehan Show - The Russell Wilson Offer

Episode Date: March 5, 2022

Kevin on the report from the NFL Network's Ian Rappaport that Washington offered multiple first-round picks earlier this week to Seattle for Russell Wilson. Also on the show, Dave Ungrady and Don Markus on their podcast...."Len Bias, A Mixed Legacy". Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. A special weekend edition of the podcast in part because of the report last night from Ian Rappaport of the NFL network that Washington offered Seattle multiple first round picks for Russell Wilson. Seattle did not accept the deal.

You're going to hear Ian Rappaport's description of Washington. Big Swing for Russell Wilson here in a moment, and then I'll give you some thoughts in follow-up. Just a reminder, and I know it's annoying to some of you, but sorry, I've got to do it. And those of you that have delivered on this, thank you so much. But if you get a chance to rate and review the podcast, especially on Apple and Spotify, please do it. What I do know, based on our daily listener account, is about 12% of the podcast. of you have rated and reviewed the podcast. That's actually not bad for a podcast. It's pretty good, but it means that 88 to 90% of you have not. And most people don't actually take the time to rate and

review us, but any podcast. But it'll take you literally five seconds to rate us five stars. And it'll take another 30 to 60 seconds to write a one to two sentence review about the podcast. It really helps us. This was a review from WFT WTF on Apple. The show is a nice mix of local and national competence sports takes and Tom Fulery, T.H.O.M. Fulery. This from Travis in Ford Hunt, even if you don't like D.C. area teams, I don't, but I live here, but I'm not from here. Kevin's show never disappoints. He's a real pro.

Covers plenty of national topics. And when Leverro is on, they could talk about the Dewey Decimal System, and it would be more compelling and entertaining than nearly everything else out there to quote Judge Smales, top notch, top notch. Thank you, Travis, in Fort Hunt. This is from Louis on Apple reviewing us.

Big Washington football fan here from Niagara Falls, Canada. So the Canadian side of the falls. Even though I'm not a fan of the other area teams, I love listening to Kevin, listen to his radio show 980. Tom is great. I find myself laughing the whole episode when it's the two of you. I was supposed to come see Washington this past year, but COVID shut the border. I hope to come next year. Thank you, Louis from Canada. And many of you have written in here over the last few days. Much appreciated, really. And those of you that haven't done it, if you could take

a minute and do it, it would be great. Another reminder. or another suggestion. If you missed yesterday's podcast, Jimmy Patsos was on it. Jimmy is one of my favorite people. Jimmy is smart. He's interesting.

He's a basketball coach, obviously at his core, a bartender at his core as well, a salesman for sure. But Jimmy and I covered everything you need to know about Mike Shoshchevsky and Coach Kay's run at Duke.

You can look. listen to this well after tonight's Duke Carolina game. It's not going to be dated at all. But we got into a lot of other things, the Terps coaching search. We touched on a lot of the old famous bars from uptown to downtown to Georgetown. We talked briefly about the McKinley assassination. That's how it always works with Jimmy Patsos. That was yesterday's show. Okay, let's get to the news from last night. Juicy. news from last night. Washington's first reported big swing at a franchise quarterback. This was Ian Rappaport from Indianapolis describing it.

Yeah, the Washington commanders, no doubt one of the teams that is very much in the quarterback market serious about potentially acquiring a big name quarterback. And here is how serious. Sources say that earlier this week, they called the Seattle Seahawks about trading for Russell Wilson. they made an offer a strong offer involving multiple first round picks. Now, the deal did not go anywhere, and Seattle really hasn't engaged at all on potential trades for Russell Wilson. But this really does show you how deep and how strong the commanders are willing to go for a potential quarterback. And you think about their roster and the way it's constructed.

They got a lot to like. Really good young receivers. They got a good offensive line. Tons of studs on defense. Got a good running back. Really just need a quarterback. Do you seem to be a team that is a good. quarterback away from being good, and they are very, very willing to go where they need to go

to acquire one, Chris. Tell us earlier this week that no dice, Russell Wilson's going to be our quarterback this year, isn't that what be a girl said? He did say that, but then general manager, John Snyder said at least he's going to pick up the phone and at least talk, but this one didn't go anywhere. Okay. There is a written version of Rappaport's television appearance last night on NFL Network. There are tweets from Rappaport.

I wanted to read one additional line. The clubs made calls throughout the league in hopes of striking a deal. He also emphasized that in a tweet. That's very consistent with some of the reporting, like John Kimes reporting from earlier in the week, where Kimes said that Washington had reached out to all 31 teams in the league, all the other 31 teams in the league, to find out about quarterback availability and cost to acquire

an available quarterback, to which Ben Standing said yesterday on the podcast, yeah, that's probably not true. They talked to Martin Mayhew, and Martin Mayhew essentially said, well, there aren't 31 teams that have quarterbacks that we would be interested in. Of course, of course. But the reason I bring it up is, look, they're going after a quarterback. They've been telling us that all along. And this report, I believe, that they went after Russell Wilson. In fact, I believe Russell Wilson was plan A. But there's something else going on here that I find interesting. Some of you ripped me a little bit for my tweet last night. That's fine. But I tweeted out with Ian Rappaport's discussion of what Washington had offered Seattle. I'm glad they're trying. And it's clear

they want all of us to know that they're trying. But I'm glad they're trying. That wasn't really meant to be flippant or condescending, to be honest with you. I just find it interesting. how hard they are working to get the message out to their current fan base and more importantly, to those that are considering being season ticket holders or being fans of the team, they really this year want everybody to know. Rivera said it. The reporting has reflected that. And now we've got an actual offer of multiple first round picks for one of the three

elite quarterbacks that are available, they want us to know it. I have a pretty strong hunch that Rappaport, more likely than not, got the information from this side of the equation, the DC side. I can't tell you that that's 100% by any stretch. It would just be my hunch. It would be consistent with, you know, the information that Kime got. I think they really want everybody to know how hard they're trying. They think it's beneficial to them. I'm not sure if it is or isn't. And I'm not knocking it because it aligns with their interests, which, you know, their main interest, their main offseason priority, get a quarterback and get the best effing quarterback you can get. But I think that this is an effort to, you know, really let everybody know how hard they're trying so that in the event they don't

land on one of these key guys, there's not like this disappointment that they didn't go after them. It's funny because last year, you know, I don't think they cared if we knew that they made the offer for Matt Stafford. Because remember, Ron Rivera's position was, yeah, we'll have time down the road to get the quarterback. Right now, we're focused on building the team, inside out, offensive line, defensive line, block by block, and then we'll go get the quarterback. And then we found out that they offered a first and a third for Matt Stafford. So kind of contradicting information. It wasn't as important last year coming off a playoff season, actually, for their customer base, their fan base to know how hard they were trying to get a franchise quarterback.

I mean, they didn't necessarily, they felt they needed one, but they didn't feel like they needed to tell everybody that they needed one. This year, different. Again, I don't know if it'll benefit them or not. I just find it interesting that that's what they're doing. They want everybody to know they are swinging big. And they did, according to Ian Rappaport. So let's talk about that. I think the report that they offered multiple first round picks for Russell Wilson, I think it means that Russell Wilson is plan A. By the way, even though Seattle rebuff them. It doesn't mean that they can't go back and offer more. I don't know that Russell Wilson's available. Listen to Pete Carroll. He's not available. Listen to Rappaport.

He said Schneider's fielding calls, but I don't think Seattle's trading Russell Wilson. But if they were to trade Russell Wilson, if Wilson were to legitimately be available, Washington could keep trying and should keep trying to get Russell Wilson. I think Russell Wilson's plan A, because I think Aaron Rogers isn't a possibility for Washington. Diana Rusini, who was on my radio show, last week, said that Aaron Rogers would not have Washington on the list of teams that he would approve being traded to. Now, there's been news on Aaron Rogers here over the last 24 hours, including the news that basically Green Bay is waiting on Aaron Rogers. Green Bay is waiting on Aaron Rogers to tell them whether or not he's coming back to Green Bay or he wants to be traded. So if he wants to be traded, Green Bay is going to trade him.

But I don't think Green Bay is going to trade him to Washington. They're probably going to get a list from Aaron Rogers, and then they're going to try to trade Aaron Rogers to those teams. And the AFC teams would be the first that they would target. So I think Washington more likely than not has had this sense that Aaron Rogers isn't a possibility. But I think they've had a sense that Russell Wilson is. Because I think, well, I don't think, as I've said, this way in delivering this. I don't think I know that Russell Wilson would not be opposed to a trade to Washington.

So he's plan A. Russell Wilson is plan A. what's plan B? I think it's Deshawn Watson. I think Deshawn Watson, if the legal situation gets cleared up, is plan B. As an aside, if they try for Deshawn Watson and they don't get Deshawn Watson, that one would probably be better for them if they keep it to themselves. I don't think there's huge benefit for people to know that they've offered multiple first round picks for, Deshawn Watson. But it's a different situation altogether with this franchise. Obviously, the reason being, Watson with all of these, you know, these lawsuits, these civil cases, potentially criminal cases with sexual harassment and sexual misconduct, potentially sexual assault, would not really align with what Washington is dealing with right now

as an organization. So if they make a move for Deshawn Watson, I would expect that one to be rather covert. I think that one would be, that wouldn't be leaked by the team to Ian Rappaport or to Adam Schaefter. Anyway, I think that's plan B. And then plan C is veteran draft choice. Now, if Trubisky's the veteran, I think he's going to have some choices. and I don't know that he would choose here if Washington's going to also take a quarterback at number 11 overall. But I do think Russell Wilson is Plan A.

And I don't think Plan A needs to be scratched yet just because Seattle said no to their first offer. If they're going to really go after Russell Wilson, they should keep going after Russell Wilson. Don't take no for an answer. make John Schneider go to Pete Carroll and go to ownership and say Washington just offered us three ones, two-toes, chase young, and I don't know, throwing another player. Tim Settle. That's a pretty good haul. The problem with Washington in a chase for Russell Wilson is what I've said before. They just don't have the same level of dry powder, of, you know, attractive compensation. If they decided, Seattle decided to trade Russell Wilson, there are so many

teams in better situations. Philadelphia, three first round picks, 15, 16, 19, and Jalen Hertz, the Giants, the fifth and the seventh overall, two first rounders and Daniel Jones. You know, Denver's got the number nine overall. and Drew Locke. You know, then you get to Houston with Watson. That could be a trade partner for Seattle. So you've got more attractive teams. Washington would be more in sort of the category of unattractive teams to deal with

because they just don't have enough. They've got number 11 and no quarterback. Pittsburgh has 20, number 20 in the first round, and no quarterback. Indy doesn't have a first round pick. They've got wents, but how attractive is that? They're kind of in that, you know, the Saints have number 18 overall and then have no cap space, and they've got who, Taysom Hill to throw into a trade? So I think Seattle would have better opportunities unless Washington just started throwing everything,

throwing the entire kitchen sink at them. But I think Russell Wilson's plan A, Deshawn Watson will be plan B, and plan C will be the veteran. And by the way, plan C is maybe Trubisky. Plan D is maybe Marriota in a draft choice. Plan E is maybe Bridgewater in a draft choice. Plan F is maybe Andy Dalton in a draft choice. And we can keep going down the line.

And then maybe Plan G is Taylor Heineke in a draft choice. I'll tell you what all this reporting has done. It's really made very clear to those of you that it wasn't clear to that they want to do anything they can to make sure that they've got a better starting quarterback on the field next year. So, Russell Wilson, multiple first round picks, I think it's plan A.

I think they should keep trying until Seattle completely shuts the door and says, no, no, no, no, we are not trading him, period. As long as John Schneider continues to field offers, keep sending them offers. Now, you know, I say keep sending them offers. I'm not talking about every day so that he just sits there and says, oh, this isn't good enough.

Come back tomorrow. But you don't want somebody else to get in there and blow them away like Philadelphia with three firsts. Jalen Hertz and maybe another player. And Seattle says, yeah, that's the one we want. You've got to keep trying. And they may not, again, it doesn't make sense that Seattle would trade them. B, it doesn't make sense that Washington would have enough to outbid some of these other teams

that might be interested in Russell Wilson as well. As far as, you know, Rappaport's discussion about, you know, he doesn't say the word or he doesn't use the description. They're close. But, man, he talked about they're a quarterback away. They are a Russell Wilson or Aaron Rogers or Deshawn Watson. away from being a legitimate contender in the NFC. I agree with that. I do.

And I'm not super, super high on the roster. I think the roster's average, but I think Russell Wilson is elite. And I think elite quarterback with average roster means 10, 11 wins. You're in the postseason and you got a shot. So there you go. What else did I have on this?

I have anything else on this? I think that's it. I did an interview earlier in the week, and it's the second time I've done an interview with these two gentlemen. Dave Ungrady, who wrote the Len Bias book, and then Don Marcus, longtime columnist with the Baltimore Sun. They have a great podcast out on Len Bias and everything that surrounded the Lenn Bias death

and the legacy of Lenn Bias. which is very mixed. There's something that they revealed in this interview that blew me away. You'll hear that interview next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, on the podcast for, I don't know, the second or third time, but I've enjoyed the conversation so much the first couple of times that I've invited back both Dave Ungrady and Don Marcus, who have produced this 14-part podcast series, Lenn Bias, a mixed legacy.

Dave, longtime author, wrote the book about Lenn Bias, Born Ready. Don, of course, longtime columnist at the Baltimore Sun. The guys are back. Look, before we get to where we are in this incredible podcast series, which I recommend to everybody, and as I've said before, you don't have to be a Maryland basketball fan or even that familiar with the Lenn Bias story to enjoy it.

It's an incredible story and far reaching beyond basketball as well. But before we get to where we are, what episode we're on, what's forthcoming. I mean, every time we get together, we've got to talk about Maryland basketball to a certain degree. So here we are in early March, and we've now had a season, almost an entire season of Maryland playing. Now, we're recording this before the Minnesota game here tonight. Many of you may be listening to this after, so we don't know what happened tonight against Minnesota. But before we get to who you think the next coach is, what do you make of the season they've had? I'll start with you first, Don.

What do you make of the season that they've had? Well, it's interesting in the sense that they're probably going to have their first losing record. Marilyn's going to have its first losing record since the 92, 93. season, which is right before Gary turned it around with Joe Smith and Keith Booth, and he had Dwayne Simpkins and XRIHipp and Johnny Rhodes' freshman. So that's

probably going to happen unless they make a surprising run the end of the season run. But having said that, you know, they have either beaten or played competitively with everybody in the top tier of the ACC,

of the ACC, excuse me, of the, we were talking ACC. Our new league. Yeah, the Big Ten. And, you know, they just had a very impressive win on Sunday against Ohio State. They played Michigan State tough at home. They should have, they could have won at Purdue a couple weeks ago,

questionable call at the end of the game. You know, they beat Illinois. It was without Kobe Coburn. But it was still, you know, that's still a pretty good team and a pretty good win. So, you know, you see, look what happened at Georgetown in the big East tournament, you know, and then making the run as a really low seat. That was, that was, was that last year. Yeah, I guess it was, like four years ago.

Yeah, they won the East tournament. And look where they are and look where they are now. But, you know, you can't, you can't say, oh, they're going to lose, you know, they're going to lose early and go, home. It could happen and it probably will happen, but you can't say definitively that they're not going to, they don't have it in them to make a run because they do have talent. They showed it on Sunday. Dave, what about their season? I don't think anybody should be surprised how it's evolved. I think it probably took a couple weeks or perhaps a month for the players to adjust. Manning was already there on the bench and that made it easier. But I think it's,

think this was just such a surprise to so many people and few if, I don't know of anybody who anticipated it, that maybe, you know, Mark and his family and maybe a couple in the athletic department. But I'm not surprised how it's evolved. Now, typically, as I've seen over the years, as these situations happen, after players get used to it and the coaches get each of their new roles and toward the end of a season, especially when the team is not really a contender to win, not even close to being a contender for the regular season, you can relax a little more.

And there's more pressure on the teams who are atop the league and they're trying to win the regular season, trying to get a better NCAA tournament's seat, et cetera. So they're in a good position, I think, emotionally, psychologically, than most teams in the league. And they've played pretty well in the last few games. and if you look at the schedule Minnesota beatable tonight, Michigan State

be a little tougher, they could end on a two-win roll a two-win streak before the tournament and who knows what happens in the tournament. So I'm not saying that I have a lot of optimism, but I think they're in as good a situation as maybe they can expect at this time. Yeah, I mean, Don, you may be a little bit premature in saying that this is going to be the first losing season.

They could still eke out. a winning season or certainly a 500 season at this point. A follow-up to this, because I've said this a couple of times over the last couple of weeks, and this is meant in no way to be disrespectful to Danny Manning at all. But he was put in a tough position, and I think he's done a great job. But I believe that if Mark Turgeon had coached this team, this team would be worst case sitting on the bubble with a chance to make the NCAA tournament. What do you guys think?

you know, I agree. No, I agree. Yeah, that's why I think you, I'll be briefed on, but that's why I think, that's why I think, it Turchin had his reasons, but there was not much forethought about how, how him leaving, his leaving affects the players, their seniors, their year, man, stick it out for the year. There could have been something else more that we don't know about it usually is, but stick it out for the year and see where it goes, at least for the benefit of the players. Don? Yeah, you know, a couple of weeks ago, I don't think I would have said that. But having watched them, or I haven't really watched all the lot,

but having seen the results of some of these games, and just knowing that, you know, Mark had a way of, you know, really sort of beating teams when their backs were against the wall, they usually play pretty well. in this case, their back would have been against the world, maybe more than ever. And his coaching job he knew was going to be on the line. So you don't know what would have happened with him, the way he coached. And maybe he, you know, he made have coached differently knowing that, hey, you know,

it's either going to be here or I'm not going to be here, so I might as well just loosen up and coach, you know, not to lose, but to win that type of thing, which I think sometimes he did, when he had really good teams, he coached not to lose. And, you know, so I think you might have a good point. You know, look at the job he did last year when they started whatever. They started one in six in the league, and everybody wrote them off. And then they, you know, they sort of fell into the tournament, and they won a game in the tournament.

And they, you know, they certainly had more talent, you can say, because they had Aaron Wiggins, who's now actually starting for the Oklahoma of City Thunder. But, you know, it wasn't, you know, Pat Russell has come on and played really, really well, the second half of the season. You know, and as the

player that they expected him to be, you know, from the start, and he wasn't, he was really resistant. Now he's putting up decent numbers, decent shooting numbers every night. And if they had that at the beginning of the year, Mark Turgeon might still be the coach.

Yeah, I think it's everything you said, and I'll just throw in this last one. I think that the one thing that I think it's almost impossible to debate during his time at Maryland. Maryland was always a well-coached defensive team. They were really good at scouting their opponent. They just were good and tough, typically defensively. Now, some of that, you know, that led into that was their pace of play offensively. But like, I don't think Iowa would have ever scored 110. you know, at Xfinity Center. I think they've improved defensively here recently,

although really with Ohio State, they just missed a lot of open shots. But I think it just would have been a better defensive team, and it would have been the difference in some of these tight games. Like, you know, the Purdue game that they had a chance to win, the Michigan State game, they had a chance to win. Obviously, the Wisconsin game. I mean, you're talking about three ranked teams

that they lost by a combined four points. He was also really good in these tight games. you know, over the years. So I think, you know, you get two more wins and they'd be 16 and 13 and 18 and 8 and 10, and that in this league would have been bubble material, you know, with a chance to make a run here down the stretch to get in. So I think that's the big difference. So let's move on to what's next. What is next? Who's their coach going to be, Dave? I'm liking actually the Seton Hall coach, Kevin Willard. And I'm using, part of my selection is,

I'm a New Jersey guy, and I've followed a little bit of college basketball in New Jersey. Don certainly followed it closer than I have, but I've been talking to my brother up there, living up in New York City. And there's a lot of discussion about Willard. Moving out of Seton Hall, he's doing a good job, doing a really good job there.

He's a fairly young coach, relatively compared to the other candidates. and he's a big upside. He's young enough, hasn't been around long enough, where he has the problems like a Petino has or some of the older coaches, some of the issues, some of the disciplinary issues they've had. But that would be my pick.

And the other, I'll also add this a little bit with something, a name that's not on these lists, and probably for a good reason, but this would be an emotional pick. and I've got to be general in how I explain this, but I've had some discussions with some people and within Maryland Athletic, and one of them brought up, man, we should get, we should have Walt Williams as a coach.

It would be a very emotional pick. It's not a very practical pick. He's never really coached as far as I understand. But who's been a better ambassador for Maryland basketball than Walt Williams over the years? But as a practical pick, I don't know. think it makes any sense, but I just thought that's really. Before you answer, Don, I'll just tell you, I love Walt.

Walt, you know, has coached at the youth level for a long time. In fact, I'll just tell you real quickly. I coached against Walt in a summer league game. This was, I don't know, five, seven, eight years ago. I think the kids were eighth graders. You know, they were, they were 14, 13, 14, 15-year-olds. and in a gym, I think it was Blair. I think it was Blair.

On a blazing hot July afternoon with no air conditioning in the building, Walt and I coached against each other in a four-overtime game. And we still occasionally will talk about it. The two of us, I think, were going to wilt before the players did. But it was just a bruner. hot game, but it was just a memorable game to which we eeked it out by a point at the end. But Walt really knows basketball and really can coach, too. I don't think that's practical, though, do you?

I mean, I, I, I, yeah, go ahead. Well, no, someone in that discussion said, well, look at Juan Howard. But John Howard had coached for six or seven years with the heat. He's got a, he's had a much higher level background in coaching. So, no, I just don't think it could happen, but Don, I'll throw it to you. Yeah, and I think, by the way, Walt also was coaching as an assistant, I think it's Sherwood when his son was there. I think it was helping out. I forget, Walt would be able to answer that.

But, Don, go ahead. Who's their next coach? Well, after hearing that story, you know, how come your name's not on the way? Yeah, right, right. I like, I like. You can put that on your red. Well, I'll tell you, before you answer this, because this is one of my favorite stories, and I haven't told it in a long time. But you guys, I think no, for years working at 980, you know, we were in the same building every day with Coach Thompson.

And Coach Thompson's show followed my show in the middays for, I don't know, eight years. So every single day, you know, I'd walk out of the studio and Coach Thompson would be, you know, walking in. And many days, like he would just hang out in what we called our bullpen area, and he would say to either Tom Leverro, because Tommy and I were doing middays or me, his term of endearment was to call everybody by MF. You know, he'd say MFer. And so one day I was telling the story about how I got teed up in a game that past weekend, the team did, because I called a time out that we didn't have.

Now, just so you know, I turned to the scores table, and I said, do I have a timeout left? And they said, yes. I called the timeout, and then all of a sudden they waved the referee over, and they said, he doesn't have any timeouts left, to which I said, what are you talking about? And the referee said, sorry, it's whatever's in the book, and they teed me up. So anyway, I walked out of the studio after telling that story on that particular day. And coach to coach is waiting for me in the bullpen. and he goes,

M. F, or? How old were these kids? And I said, these were seventh graders. You're telling, he said, and how many timeouts do you get in a game? And I said, I think we get four. You're telling me in a seventh grade basketball game, you called all your timeouts? What's wrong with you, boy?

And I just started, I started laughing so hard, and he started laughing. And it was so, it was a lot of the banter that would go on at the radio station, especially with coach. What's really funny, though, is coach actually got a chance because his grandson was playing in a league that was playing against, he was Ronnie's son, was playing in a league, a lot of different leagues that would play against my son's team that I was coaching. So I was in gyms all the time with Coach Thompson watching his grandson play against the

team that I was coaching, which was always fun. He honestly turned into, believe it or not, is a longtime Maryland. person, right? And remember the rivalry and how Maryland people thought about Georgetown in the 80s. I loved Coach Thompson. He was one of the real decent people ever I've had a chance to work with professionally. But anyway, I digress there for too long. Don, who's the next coach? Well, before you, I think what people don't realize about John Thompson is he played a very pivotal role in left feet, Gersel, getting in the Hall of Fame.

He was the guy who really pushed that to the finish line. They became very good friends. You know, that's something that people, a lot of Maryland fans probably don't know about John Thompson. Anyway, the lady gave me all this time to think about how I was going to answer

this question. Because the last time, it's funny, the last time we were on, you were talking about Rick Cepino, and I said, no way they were going to hire Rick Cipino. Well, you know, I still don't think because, from what I hear, he has a, he has a, he has a very big buyout that they're not going to be willing to, they're not going to be willing to, to pony up. And Iona did that purposely because, you know, they knew he was, you know, he was probably not going to finish his career there. So I think that that's still probably, you know, I think, honestly, I think that's the guy who could turn this thing around in a heartbeat, but I don't think that's going to happen. Then you have a bunch of people, you know, like, as Dave said, you know, Kevin Willard, and I think Kevin Willard fits into the category like an Andy Enfield, like an Ed Cooley.

I think they're all very, very good coaches. I think they all, in a normal situation, situation do a pretty good job getting the program back where it should be. But this is not a normal situation. You have a fan base that's not just fractured. It's really non-existence, you know, in terms of following them every day. You know, you have, obviously, you have big crowds occasionally for big games, but it's not, it's a very, you know, it's a bunch of front runners. And I think it's going to take some time to build this thing back up unless you get a risk. you know. But I, you know, honestly, I would love to see them higher just for one aspect of this whole story with Maryland the last year. I would love to see them if they can't, you know, hit a home run.

I would love to see them hit higher Mike Bray. And for this reason, you can bring a guy back, a demath guy back. You can bring in a demath guy in DuMatha guy in Duane Simpkins, a Maryland guy. you can have a Maryland presence on the staff, which they haven't had. And Dematha has a really, really good team right now. And one of its stars is Gerard Moustaf's son, who I believe is a junior. I think he just yanked. Didn't he just yank him from the team? Oh, I didn't follow that. Okay. I could be wrong. I thought I had some friends tell me about that recently.

Okay. Well, anyway, he's still a really good player, whether he was yanked from the team. Right. But I think, you know, the story of the last few years is about Maryland not getting anything. And, you know, they do have some really good players coming out the next couple of years. And I always believe that there's a sneaker component to why Maryland is not getting these guys. I agree. The math of boys team is the only team in that school that does not wear Under Armour. It wears Nike.

And I think that it would prove. once and for all, whether this was a sneaker story or the math and Maryland story. And on top of that, you got a guy like Mike Bray, who sort of has resurrected himself a little this year. We'll see how they do down the stretch. We'll see how they do in the tournament. And if he makes a run, you know, maybe he becomes a more, you know, Maryland fans will buy into it more. But you have a guy who's a real pro, who's done this for a long time. And I think it would energize him. I think it would, you know, he's, you know, you look at the fact that the guy he worked for and made his career name under before he went out on his own is retiring now at whatever

age, 75 or something like that. So it's not like these guys retire at 65 like John Wooden did, you know, 45 years ago or whatever it was, you 47 years ago. You know, you have guys coaching until they're 70-75 and, and Mike Bray is a really, really good basketball coach. Yeah, I've had so many conversations with so many people about Mike Bray. Like it feels so much like the hire that they should have or could have made 10 years ago that no one was super excited about. Because really, you know, all those years at Notre Dame, I mean, we, you know, we've had a fan base complain about, you know, not getting out of the first round of the tournament. I know that there was that two-year stretch where they got to the elite eight. But for the most part, Notre Dame year and in year out has been an.

out in the first round, first weekend team. But, yeah, look, I think it's his dream job, right? Kind of like, you know, Morgan always said, there's only one job I would have taken to leave to math, and it was Maryland. And I think Bray would certainly be, you know, very intrigued by it, but it just seems like a 10 years ago higher to me. I don't know, that's just my reaction.

Listen, I'm not saying that this is, you know, I don't think there's, one of the reasons I say this is I don't think there's a slam dunk higher except for a Rick Petino. And then you're, you know, and as I said, the last time we spoke, it's, you know, retire Rick Petino and cross your fingers. But I think he could turn this program around at a heartbeat because he could get, he could get, he could get, he'll get the fan base excited. He'll get players in the portal, which they need. They're going to need whoever comes in is going to have to work the portal really hard. and and he's going to and he's a great coach.

I mean, you know, all his off-court stuff aside, that guy is a great coach. So you have everything you need and you have to say, okay, is it worth the PR hit? Well, if they're, you know, if he comes in and all of a sudden he gets two or three really good players to transfer as he did at Iona, he got him, he got some really good players at Iona.

So if you have them, and next year they're sitting 20 and 3, in late January and they're 17th in the country or whatever, I'm coming up up these stats, you know, randomly. I don't think anybody's going to talk about, well, what happened at Louisville and what happened at, you know, all these other places? I think they're going to say, wow, we got Rick Petino and we're back. I couldn't agree with you more. They will sell out season tickets within three weeks after hiring them.

The building will be packed. even in November and December, he'll use the transfer portal. They'll be ranked in the top 20 next year, and within three years there'll be a legitimate challenge to win a national championship. And all of the negative PR, and I don't even know how to define that, because I don't know what would be coming, but it would be forgotten in this day and age of NIL, transfer portal, and guys like Will Wade who are legitimate crooks, you know,

on wiretaps, offering players money who are still coaching in this sport. It would be the life, you know, injected into a program that right now feels very stale. I agree with you. Dave, do you have any thoughts on that? And when you're talking about Petino, I'm thinking you would hope that at this time in his life, he's attained so much wisdom, perhaps on being naive, that he would know, okay, do I really need to do that anymore? Right.

Can I coach a basketball program and not have to work? worry about doing the crooked stuff. People don't change, perhaps, but I would think, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I mean, you're not thought like you're 45 and you get to prove yourself. And plus what motivates him now? I'd like to know what motivates him now as you get older. Well, we haven't seen Coach K really fade in that area,

and Petino's a rare breed. So I think the advantage of hiring him is sort of a, idealistic evaluation, you know, why would he want to do this again? Why would he want to do anything that's considered against the rules here? Well, maybe I'm being naive, but I'd like to think that. Yeah, and I think also it's become more Wild Wild West just in the sport right now anyway, where it seems like a lot more is happening. Yeah, so, all right, let's get to the podcast because I know you guys are limited on time.

So it's a great podcast, Lend Bias and Mixed Legacy, 14 episodes. You guys are on episode 9 right now. First question. So what's been the overall reaction so far? I mean, what kind of reaction do you guys hear from people about this podcast and those that have listened to it? I'll offer one that I don't know if I mentioned the last time we were on, and this is Derek Lewis, who was a teammate of Lance, excuse me, And I think a lot of people that we talked to initially when we interviewed them for the podcast,

they didn't know what it was going to be like. They thought it was going to be like a lot of the impression I get is it's just sort of in your format. Kevin, people talk about things and you don't throw it to tape. And so it's not heavily produced in that regard. We took the position. We wanted to tell this in-depth, deep, narrative story about Len as completely as we could. And it's taken a lot of time and effort and work, which we're not complaining, but it's just the process. So Derek responds to, man, I didn't think it was going to be like this.

And it's just been, his result, it's been great. I mean, I love listening to it. All the voices you get on it, you get different people talking about it who were there, primary sources, et cetera. Now, on a more objective level, since Derek was on the podcast, when we talked to the people at Octagon and the producer, producers there and help them to produce it. They're very happy with the numbers. And one of our goals of this, a primary goal of this podcast series, Kevin,

was to take it to the next level. How can we produce a video documentary from this, all this information? And the initial thinking was the most significant part of the story is the criminal justice aspect of Lentz. Right. How it affected federal legislation related to cocaine prison sentences.

And we are, we're being told to Moxagon that there are in discussions with ABC about producing a documentary on that. And there's interest out there. There's nothing definite, nothing signed. You know how this works. There's a lot of talk sometimes.

But my feeling is there's a lot of interest in getting that part done and fairly quickly, because that is, that is a contemporary significant topic. Yes. criminal justice related to cocaine crimes. And there's a political tie-in now with the sentence. The U.S. Senate is considering a new bill called the Equal Act

that would get rid of the disparity of crack versus powder cocaine sentences. So no matter if you have one or the other, you're getting the same mandatory minimum. it doesn't skew against young black people who have committed these crimes. So there's a lot of momentum there. The numbers are pretty good. And we've got a lot more to do, and we're very happy so far. So I want to get to something else done next, but I just wanted to make sure that everybody understood that in the wake of Len Bias' death,

there was a lot of legislation. This was a shocking, you know, cultural event at the time. And it created the 1986 Anti-Drug Abuse Act passed by Congress, which created these mandatory minimum prison sentences related to, you know, several different drug-related sentences. I mean, I think recently, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think recently there was actually, I think it may have been in the last administration, a reduction of some of those mandatory minimums. But I don't need an update on that. I wanted to go to, you know, that's a very significant part of what happened and part of the Lenn-Bias death legacy. But I also think part of it that I and many Maryland basketball fans are interested in was the decision-making process after his death at Maryland. And what happened to Maryland?

Maryland basketball, this juggernaut of a program, you know, basically went into, you know, you know, a multi-year period that, you know, that ended in probation and pretty much something, you know, approximating the death penalty in terms of NCAA probation. What were the mistakes made in the wake of Bias' death that really impacted and set the athletic department, not just the basketball program, but the athletic department back? well i you know go you know going off of a little bit of off of what dave said i just wanted to add one thing and that is that um you know one of the things about the series is that is that um people are being educated about a lot of stories that they weren't aware of you know whether

it was the mandatory minimums and the drug laws or even i don't think people either knew or remember they they were you know it's a long time ago what happened to Maryland as you brought up I you know I think the the you know I always point to the because I call it I call it the Bob Wade error not the Bob Wade era and I think that was the as far as basketball that was the single biggest mistake that was made in you know okay you're going to fire lefties is Lowe and you're going to bring in an unproven high school coach from Baltimore thinking that he's going to, you know, he has a reputation of being a disciplinarian,

but in reality, he was, you know, he was a disciplinarian. But as we point out in the podcast, a lot of guys did not like playing for him, who played for lefty, you know, guys who didn't like playing for him who played for lefty and then played for Gary. And, you know, I think that that was the biggest mistake. I think the fallout at Maryland because they were so ill-equipped from an administrative standpoint when Dick Dull, who was a terrific, you know, rising star, if not a star already as an AD, was forced out, you know, put pressure on him to resign, and he did.

And then again, they have an administrator, Chuck Sturts, running the athletic program who knew nothing about sports. It wasn't a guy who was involved in athletics, and he comes in, and he's making the decisions about when Bobby Ross, you know, but when Bobby Ross leave, and he hires Joe Kreevac, who's a really nice guy, but from what I was told for years, even the staff did not think that was going to be a good move,

and it proved to be, you know, a terrible move. And I felt bad, but I got off the beat in large parts, it because I like Joe so much, and I knew it was going to be a disaster, and I had a chance to cover national college sports, which was obviously a better beat, but I also didn't want to have to write Joe, Joe Crevex, you know, professional, you know, his swan song. So there was a lot of decision made, and then on top of that, there was a lot, and Dave can speak of it, because he was closely tied to the university as a former athlete, and he was, you know, he was recently, you know, It came, you know, it came, you know, six years after he graduated, Len died, and within 10 years, all the stuff was happening.

And he was very much involved, and he could speak to it. There was just a lot of infighting in the university among people, you know, taking sides in it. And there was, I remember when Gary showed up, he couldn't believe how much, how much, you know, acrimony there was between different factions, you know. And he got caught up in it because, you know, he ran an illegal practice. and it cost them, you know, it cost them, you know, at least the perception of things haven't changed in Maryland, whereas it was something that a lot of coaches did at the time. And but he got ratted out by somebody who was a wave supporter.

What were you just referring to? In 19, I would say it was his first year there. He coaches watched a practice. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. I know this story. You've actually told it before. Okay, got it. I mean, very insignificant, but, but yeah. By the way, Bob Wade giving Rudy Archer a ride to class was pretty insignificant too. Well, you know, it, again, he gave him a ride to class after he had flunked out or cheated his way out of the university. he was at Prince George's Community College.

And, you know, number one, either way, didn't know the rule or didn't think he get caught. Number two, you know, I remember getting a phone call from one of the, from Tion McCoy, who told me that Rudy Archer, when he was living, when he was on, you know, going to PG County community college was still living in the dorms. And, and I called that, I called Bob, I called Lou Perkins. and within a day, Rudy Archer had cleared out. Oh, boy.

So, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on and a lot of bad decisions. And it cost them. And if not, you know, and we talk about this, and I think Bonnie Bernstein and a couple other people said, if not for Gary Williams, who knows where Maryland basketball would have been. But, you know, Walt Williams, and we spoke about him earlier, he was he was the savior for for gary's program because he stayed and he gave them some legitimacy and he gave him a great coach team player to build a team around but in the long term gary williams is the reason you know maryland won a national championship and and is not an irrelevant program

all these years later it's it's flirting with irrelevancy if they don't make the right hire but but gary williams is the single most important figure in that in the in the history of that program as it stands now. Yeah. That's Don Marcus talking right now, a longtime columnist at the Baltimore Sun. Dave Ungready's with us as well. The podcast is Lend Bias and Mixed Legacy. We've talked about it before. What I asked Don, Dave, is what I want to focus on a little bit more because I want to go back a step in terms of, you know, before, you know, the hiring of Bob Wade. in hindsight, does anybody believe that it was wrong to fire Lefty Dressel?

Oh, a lot of people, sure, and we present that in the podcast, the section, we have, it's broken up into three sections, the second section of three episodes, focuses on how Maryland reacted and how it impacted the athletic department. There were a lot of people who weren't happy with that. But people who knew Lefty personally, we talked quite a bit with Russ Pot, who is now deceased. He passed away in December, but he was the first marketing director for Maryland Athletics when Lefty started, and Jim Kehoe came in his athletic director in the early 70s. And so he knew Lefty very well, and Jay-J. Bush, who was his head trainer for many years.

Now, they knew him and they're going to have sort of a less objective observation about it. But the point with Lefty is, and J.J. Bush says this, lefty didn't put the cocaine up Len's nose. Len did. Leonard was an adult. He was responsible for that. Did Lefty handle it as well as he could have? Probably not. But that's Lefty. He spoke. He said too much publicly, and he put himself out there to be criticized and slaughtered like that. but there were a lot of people who have been involved with the program either working there or fans of Lefty and liked his personality and what he did for the program. Now that said, I'm not surprised Lefty was released because he was there had to be a scapegoat and he was it. Dick Doe was not the scapegoat. Lefty was. He was the headcoat.

When things happened in a program like that as a head coach, you're in charge. Whether you've anything to do with it or I'm not. So that's an easy, easy pick. to remove in that sense. If I can get back to a little bit, now going to Wade in that selection process, it was not Wade, it was by no fault of Wade that he was selected. Right.

How do you turn that down? It's an opportunity that a few people were turned down, but once he's in there, he didn't help himself. And we addressed this quite specifically in the podcast in the episodes we feature about mental and athletic, Sue Tyler was an assistant Athletic Director at Maryland then

and she was actually a coach when I was at Maryland and she's an iconic Maryland athletic figure and she talks about how Coach Wade just didn't want anybody to help him

he would go into his office and they would have meetings he wouldn't show up for meetings and all the other departments that were in charge in charge of recruiting and guiding him in all those areas he didn't want their health according to

that. Chuck Wash, who was in media, and I'm sure Don't remember Chuck Wash. Sure. He was quoted in the podcast series saying that he thought from day one that everybody was against him. And I can't blame him. Everybody was pretty much white, white male or primarily white male, I thought it's part. And here comes this black gentleman coming in as the coach. And he didn't feel comfortable, and he didn't let him see. self, get comfortable. There's a very profound story that we tell on the podcast about John Brown, who is the owner of Belly's restaurant,

visiting Bob at his home at the request of Bob's wife, and he was very upset. And here's Bob Wade crying in his chair, frustrated that he was not invited to a meeting by the terrific for them. Why don't they invite me? What don't they want me? And John Bates says they should. So he didn't help himself. The environment didn't help him. It was a bad thing. It was a hard thing for him. It didn't turn out well. And it had a lot of repercussions later on. I look at it a little more broadly within athletics over the next couple decades. How the athletic department struggled to deal and accept, or at least not embrace, but accept. Glenn's legacy. It didn't really

happen until 2014 when he was inducted into Maryland's Athletics Hall of Fame. And Bob Gagan, you may remember Bob Gagin. Kevin, he recently passed away as well. The nicest guy. Such a nice man, yeah.

McDonald's Capital Classic. One of the best, right. He started the Capital Classic in the 1970s and a pioneer in starting high school All-Star Games, like that. But he was the first one to induct him to a Hall of Fame in 2012. And his reason was, as we present in the podcast, nobody else had done it. And he didn't know why. I mean,

he understood why, but he thought it was time to do it. Maryland hadn't done it. I'm going to be the first one. Two years later, Maryland does it. Then the D.C. Sports Hall of Fame adduct him at 2018. And then just this past winter, I'm sorry, just this past November, National League of Basketball Hall of Fame in Dutch land. So he's finally getting his due as far as honors. But it took too long. I think Maryland Athletics lost its way. They're forbidden.

And just how are we going to deal with land? They tried to forget about it. And they couldn't. How do you forget about this story? You know, we in the media, we didn't let it be forgotten. And maybe to sell newspapers or sell online, you know, get eyeballs on online content, whatever. But as we present in the podcast series, there are so many people. people who say, I'm glad the story has never been, we haven't forgotten about it because there

were too many lessons from it. And if Maryland has sort of taken that approach, they wouldn't have had the struggle as much, I think, accepting as the end of the issue. Just real quickly, because I think the Bob Wade thing, which we haven't really talked about in our previous discussions, I think it's such an interesting time. And there's so many stories about, you know, why he got hired and who hired him. And, you know, from this was chance. Slaughter and John Thompson, the two of them, basically John Thompson, you know, this is a legendary story among, you know, Maryland fans, that basically Chancellor Slaughter, who was black, and John Thompson, who he called to get a recommendation from, and he recommended Bob Wade, that

essentially those were the two people and no one else was involved in picking the next head coach. Is that true or not? Yeah, I think it expanded a little bit. Go ahead. He also called Dean Smith. He may have called Jim Valvano. So there were other prominent coaches involved. Bob was, you know, because he was running the Nike camp during the summer.

He got to know all these guys. And listen, he did a great job at Dunbar. He did it. You know, he was also the football coach. He was a very successful football coach. People felt he was even a better football coach or a basketball coach. because he did more with less in terms of the football talent at Dunbar, you know, at the city school. But again, I think that, you know, it was a time where John Flaude was trying to, you know, and I understand.

You know, Bob Wade was the first black coach in the history of the ACC in football, maybe in any major sport. and he was trying to, you know, I understand that, and there had been successful. You know, John Thompson was not an immediate success at Georgetown. I mean, there was a very, very, you know, terrible incident, you know, with a racial epit involved. When Thompson, you know, when Thompson had a terrible, I think they finished like three and 23 his first season or something like that, you know, and Nolan Richardson, you know, was the head coach at Tulsa, and then at Arkansas.

saw. So, you know, it made sense that the ACC needed a black coach, but I'm not sure that, you know, that Bob Wade was, was really, and Dave spoke really well about it. And I knew that at the time. I had a conversation with Wade in his office one day. He wasn't in tears, but he was saying, and he basically said, I'm not, I'm not the people's choice, and I'll never be the people's choice. But on top of that, he didn't trust anybody. He trusted he had a guy. named Woody Williams, who came with him, who was sort of his, he wasn't an assistant on the bench, but he was his guy because he was told he had to take Ron Bradley and Oliver Pernell, who were both very good assistants. They both became very successful head coaches,

and he didn't trust them, you know, because he thought that they were out to get him, and they thought they were out, they were still left these guys, was lefties still had an office on campus. And there was, you know, there was lefty. You know, he once said that, you know, they would go down to lefty's office and visit with him and then come, you know, talk to him, talk to Bob. So there was a lot of stuff going on with that. And, you know, it was.

There was a lot of fault on both sides of it. If I could have a little more depth to that, Kevin related to Slaughter's process in pick and way, He told me for the book that I wrote about Len that Wade was the only coach that he interviewed for the position. And his thinking was he had a good record of keeping his athletes disciplined and focused on academics. And that was a big priority for him based on everything that was happening. Now, he also told me that he did talk to, as Don mentioned, Dean Smith and Don mentioned of Avana, but also Terry Holland of Bobby Crimmons. He also mentioned that Bobano's wife and Wade's wife were friends.

So he did some due diligence there. But he was the one. There was no committee. He was the one making that decision. And I think that was not to the benefit of Bob Wade. Ultimately, as we see, was not to the benefit of Bob Wade. What's your favorite episode, each of you, of what you've done so far, and then give us just kind of a preview.

of what's upcoming here over these last few episodes? Mine, I'll pick it. It's going to drop in about two weeks, two or three weeks. The next episode is going to be about the team, how the teammates and Lester Grissel reacted to it, and how it affected their lives. And it's a very long effort, it's the longest one. It's over an hour.

So bear with us on that, but there's a lot there. The one after that is going to be about the family. And we have two voices in there that are two of the more, emotionally impactful voices. One you know of, one you don't. Lenny's bias. Talks a lot about how she reacted not

to Lenn's death, but Jay's death. Jay Bias is death. And before we talk about how she reacted and how James Bias to an extent reacted, we set it up about J. Bias. Jay Bias, I think, is the saddest story about, the status part about this whole thing. And as we present in the podcast series, there were Bob Wagner, who coached both Len and who coached Len and also coach Jay for one year before at Northwestern.

He thought Jay was better than Len coming out of high school. Jay had D-1 offers, but his grades weren't good. And understandably, Len's death rocked his world. I did a piece for CNN. I was doing some freelance producing then, the year after Len died. And unfortunately, I can't find the piece, but I do remember some of it. And, you know, I could see Jay was still shell-shocks when I was talking to that story, the winter after Len died.

But the prominent voice really capturing the impact of Jay's death is a player named Clint Venable, who was Jay's teammate at Northwestern, a year older. They grew up playing basketball at the rec. They learned watching Len and Brian Waller play. Brian Waller was the Len's teammate in high school. Len was everything that he's got. And I sat with Clint Venable for about an hour and a half at a restaurant, Mr. Rogers County,

interviewed him for the book, and we used the audio for the podcast series. You just got to listen to that. His voice is so deeply emotional talking about Jay. and he tells about when he found out Jay Dye. And Clint was a very prominent cause player at Bowling Green at the time. He was a pre-season candidate player of the year. And after Jay Death, his career was never the same.

Wow. And it really comes through in the way he talked about him. And then we go, we segue from there to Lenny Spice talking about how the family and her reaction and how she handled everything and we end it with Len's son.

Len has a son, Michael Bias, that very few people know about. There's never been a DNA done, so it's not 100% proof we're comfortable presenting it that he is a son of Lenn Bias, how it's impacted his life. That I think is the most

emotionally profound of all these. Oh my God. I didn't Lenn Bias has a son. Lynn Bias has a son. He's in his mid-30s. For the book, I talked to him. Does anybody know this?

I mean, I feel like when I say anybody, I mean, like this isn't something, have I just missed this discussion over the years? I had no idea. Well, there was a reporter on Channel 7, local D.C., Channel 7, did a piece about it when I was working a couple of years before I was working on the book. And it didn't get much traction. And I think the problem is there's never been a DNA test done. Len is listed on the birth certificate.

That's not 100% proof. But we interviewed the mother. For the book, and the podcast, we have the quotes in the podcast. I met Michael Bias when he was in prison. when I was working on the book in 2010. And there are enough people as I presented the book and the podcast series who confirm a meeting with Tobias family that we're comfortable with presenting it that way.

And he struggled. He has struggled all his life, as he has said, knowing who Len bias was, but never knowing his father. And it's created issues for him. Was the mother Len's girlfriend at the time when Len passed away? Interesting question. Len is your might not be surprised. A lot of girlfriends at that time.

Okay. She explained to me, she understood who Len was. He met him at a party on the campus. She was only, I think, 17 at the time. And a friend of hers was a student at Maryland. And a friend of hers played, a friend of his brother played a high school basketball game against Len when she was 13. That's when the first time she saw him.

She said she had a pressure on him. It was the state championship game when Len was a senior or junior. I forget what year it was. That's what she first saw him. And then she got a chance to meet him at the party on campus a few years later with her friend who was a then of student of Maryland.

She was still in high school. She met him. They hooked up. She said she wasn't home for like a week and a half. So as she recalls it, they spent some quality. time together. And then she spent time with him in the, as she explained it,

she spent time with him in his dorm room. She saw him use cocaine. There's only one player of all, this is the fascinating part of the story, in fact, why you probably have not heard much about it. Not that these guys knew about it, his teammates, but I'd be surprised that they didn't. Only one player on that team that I talked to, Phil Nevin, remembers meeting her.

Jeff Baxter, Keith Gatlin, Terry Long, I didn't talk to her, Speedy Jones, three or four of my talk to. Derek Lewis did not remember hearing anything. And Phil Nevin did. The son was born. Phil Nevin did. He was living there.

He was living in a suite with Lenn in Washington Hall. Last year. Yeah. In Washington Hall. No, no, no. Lettertown. During the school year. Leonard Town.

yeah okay and and he remember seeing her and and i present in the in the book and the podcast how we how we knew it uh but everybody else hadn't said they had no idea the son was born two weeks after lend die so clearly it's hard to believe that people didn't see her in that suite and she was pregnant at the time so lefty didn't that lefty didn't know at least say they didn't know so it's sort of a it's a perplexing scenario and it's mysterious but uh we're comfortable with all the information that we've confirmed that he does other side yet. Wow, that's, that's fascinating. And just out of curiosity was, were the bias is a big part of his life?

You know, did they know? Were, were Linise and James bias? Were the family, were Lenz family members a big part of his life? The best we can determine is no. there was a meeting. We never had a one-on-one interview with, Denise Bias, we were able to obtain her interview with Rock Newman

when he had the show on W.HU.T. TV, and he interviewed her for about 45 minutes, and she has a lot of really good things to say in that interview, and that's what we used for the podcast. But, and since the Bias family has refused to talk to us, we never could confirm that through them, but we were able to confirm there was a meeting with the mother, with Michael Bias, the son, and the woman's uncle, the mother's uncle who attended the meeting.

And I talked to him, and he confirmed the meeting. He confirmed, that was in the biased household. And this uncle and the mother also talk about, they attempted to see misbiased, this is biased at speeches, just as they could see. They went there, so she could see his grandson. And as they explained it, it wasn't the, they were hoping for a little more welcoming reaction from Lenny's bias, but it wasn't there, according to them. So the best we can determine there has been very little, if any, recognition of Michael as the son. And the mother says that that's a big thing she wants, that she would love the family just to acknowledge that they have a grant. Well, I mean, look, there's so many questions that, you know, come to mind. And I'm just, obviously, there's one that I haven't asked you. And then we don't have to continue to get, you know, go down this road.

But was he an athlete? Was he a basketball player? How big was he? Yes. He, we have a picture of him in the book. You could see sort of Lenin is a little bit of more of Lenis bias in his face as I see it. And he has a very husky build. There was a picture of him in a basketball uniform in the book of when he was in high school.

But then soon after that, he started getting involved with drugs and dealing drugs and had some other criminal convictions and spent some time in jail. So he did tend to be athletic, but to no real impact. All right, guys. I mean, I feel like we could do this forever every single time we do it. But I would just tell every... There's so much there, Kevin. I mean, this is a story that... And I think Donna will attest you is just so much.

It's never ending. Let me just finish on this point. You asked about the reaction. I play back... As you know, I play a lot of pickup basketball. There are a couple of guys I play with. One guy who grew up in the Dominican Republic, came here at age 15,

who played baseball, and he ended up in Orlando, Florida. And when the day Bias died, there was a great player that he played with in Dominican Republic, a basketball player named Baez. And he thought that they were reporting about the guy he played with in Dominican Republic, and they couldn't understand why everybody was making a big deal about it. He knew nothing about bias. And when he listened to the series, he did it. He said, I did this as a courtesy because he's a friend of mine.

He said, but he couldn't believe not only how well-produced it was, but how deep we went and how well-reported it is. And it really is a story that he knew a little bit about. There's another guy who's from Spain who told me he got up the morning of the 1984 Olympic gold medal game between Spain and the U.S. And because he was a big Michael Jordan fan as well. And he found out about through the guys we played pickup with. He knew nothing about why I'm biased.

And this podcast has spurred, you know, has made him, you know, go on the Internet. And I said, and I said, go look at the YouTube video of Bias versus Jordan. And he came back like two days later. He says, oh, my God. that guy was Michael Jordan. He might be better than Michael Jordan. So there was so many people who are not, who not only are getting stories that they hadn't heard before. A lot of people didn't know, and I didn't know the extent of the political implications of it until a few years ago.

Didn't know it at the time. You know, didn't know how his, you know, so there's so many aspects to this thing. And it is. it's really truly a mixed legacy. And as I said, Dave has, you know, we cared about his compassion for this project and his obsession. But Dave did an unbelievable job with not only the book, but with this podcast. And, you know, there's an episode about culture we're doing. And, you know, I think we talked about it the last time, the musical background to this, you know, the musical

the soundtrack of this podcast is a rapper, an obscure rapper named MC Longshot, based out in the Midwest, who wrote a four-minute rap video, did a four-minute rap video about bias in 2013, and that's how much he was a fan. So it's an unbelievable story. It still resonates

on many levels to this day, and I think, That's why, you know, hopefully we'll do this documentary and really make people understand probably the most impactful part of biases legacy was the writing of these, you know, these drug laws that they're now trying to try to reverse. It really is. Like, it's so amazing because when, and we've, I know that this has gotten repetitive with me, with you guys in the past, but it's like, you know, the conversations, the nostalgic, look back, you know, God, I've mentioned the word nostalgic so many times today because I just recorded an interview with the guys that produce the ACC, or one of the guys that produced the ACC tournament documentary, which is just incredible, which is running on the ACC network. And, you know, those of us that live through that era, but more importantly, those of us who

are Maryland people, and I was in school at the University of Maryland living in college park towers, living in Spring Hill Lake, living in all these different places, going to all these games, playing pickup ball every single night in North Gym or the Armory with, you know, and it's like we all live through this era. And, you know, the stories usually are just about, you know, the game at the Dean Dome or the final game where he took Olden Polynes his shot and threw it into the third row. Or, you know, like for me, I remember when, you know, his freshman year, when he, when he beat Tennessee Chattanooga in the first round of the tournament on a buzzer beaters as a freshman or the ACC tournament as a sophomore or, you know, the thing I like

I always, the thing that really upsets me and whenever I think about bias's basketball career is that they never made a deeper run. You know, they got to the back-to-back suite 16s. They lost to Illinois. And then they lost to Villanova who went on in 85 to win the national championship. and that was Bias' worst game of his career. If you go back, I think statistically, his Sweet 16 game in, God, that game was, I want to say that game may have been in Birmingham.

I think it was in Birmingham when they lost to Villanova in the Sweet 16. I think he was two for 17 from the floor. And they only lost by like two points. And if not for Bias having the worst, game of his career. Villanova never wins the title in 85. And maybe, and by the way, Maryland would have played North Carolina in the elite eight. Interesting, because that's your Villanova beat that year in the elite eight. But it's like, you know, you remember all of this stories for all of us that were there and, you know, whether, you know, you were at the games or

watching the games, everybody remembers Len Byest the player. But God, there's so much more to it. There's so much more to it and how it changed the lives of many. I will tell you, Dave, I'm looking forward to actually the first thing you said. I know the Jay biased stuff and you've mentioned to me just how nobody may have been more impacted by Len's death than his younger brother. But to listen to all of those former players and you said, you know, sort of the players episode, I'm looking forward to hearing that and to hearing, you know, Baxter. And I've heard Gatlin so much talk about Len. And I've heard Jeff too, the same thing. But Terry Long and and Dave, Dickerson, who's, you know, gone on to a really good coaching career.

You know, obviously was an assistant on Gary's national championship team and, you know, all the other guys that were there. I think that'll be a fascinating episode as well. Anyway. Well, Kevin, if I can add quickly just in talking about the team episode that's coming out the next few days, you mentioned someone who I think has, will get your interest primarily in that episode is John Johnson. freshman there. Right. Yes, he talks as emotionally about Len as Clint Venable talks about Jay.

And the other players don't go as deep emotionally as John does. And for reasons that we'll explain in the podcast. So they develop a strong connection after knowing each other for so brief a time. So I think you'll really grasp on to that part of it as well. Yeah, John Johnson was, I think, a freshman on Len's scene. your team. I think he was the key he was, yes. He was, yes. You know, the key recruit who came in. Thank you guys. Again, for everybody.

Great podcast, listen. Lenn-Bias, a mixed legacy. Episode 9 is out. There are five more after this one. It's fantastic. Dave and Grady, Don Marcus. You can get it anywhere you get a podcast. I appreciate it, guys, as always. We will talk again, maybe when this whole thing's over. Thank you. I hope so. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you.