The Kevin Sheehan Show - The Seattle View On Trading Wilson

Episode Date: February 9, 2022

Kevin with two guests today after he opened with some Super Bowl, Bradley Beal, and his feelings a week removed from the new Washington Commanders name announcement. Then, long-time DC lawyer and former Ambassador to Belgium Howard Gutman was a guest on the show to discuss in detail why Dan Snyder and the Commanders are launching a new investigation into recent allegations which implicated Snyder directly. Kevin also talked with Michael-Shawn Dugar who covers the Seahawks for The Athletic with the Seattle view on why there is so much buzz about Russell Wilson potentially being on the trade block. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Something came up. I do have two guests on the show today. Howard Gutman, who was the Obama administration's ambassador to Belgium. Howard's become a friend. He's a big sports fan. a big time, long time lawyer in town one of the smartest people in Washington. He is going to join me to discuss

what Dan Snyder and the Washington commanders, I hate using that name right now, but whatever, I'll get used to it maybe, what they did today in launching an investigation into the claims made by Tiffany Johnston last week. Tiffany Johnston was the one that claimed that Dan Snyder put his hand on her thigh during a business meeting and then tried to push her into his limousine through his attorney the day after he

vehemently denied that allegation and called it an outward you know an outright lie well they have launched an investigation a so-called independent investigation that they'll be paying for to look in to these allegations which were new allegations from tiffany johnson last week allegations that were not presented because she was not interviewed for the Beth Wilkinson investigation. Howard Gutman will join me to discuss all of that. And then after that, Michael Sean Dugger, who covers the Seahawks for the Athletic, will join us and we'll find out whether or not there's a legitimate possibility that the Seahawks would trade Russell Wilson. All right, we'll get to Howard Gutman here shortly and the Washington new investigation.

I wanted to get touch on a couple of things here in the open. First is the Super Bowl. It's on Sunday. You know, it sort of sneaks up on us during this two-week period. We'll talk much more about the game tomorrow and on Friday's show. I do always feel that the Super Bowl is very anticlimactic to the playoffs that we just watched, all the games, just one game. We've got to wait two weeks for it.

But I am excited about this game because I have a strong lean in this game. In terms of analysis, I think the Rams are the better team. I think they're going to be dominant with their defensive front against Cincinnati's offensive line, and I think they're going to wreak havoc defensively in this game and win. And I like the Rams to win by a comfortable margin. Now, from a betting standpoint, most of you know, I'm a contrarian better. You know, I'm pretty much anti-public, pro-sharp. And, you know, the Super Bowl right now, there is a slight public lean on the Bengals.

The other thing I like looking at for these big games or national TV games during the season, a Sunday night game or a Monday night game, is where all of the so-called experts are on the game. I can tell you, like, in a Monday night game, if all the experts are picking the game and they're all on one team, I get to the window quickly on the other team, even if I didn't have any interest in the game. I just think that the so-called experts are wrong more often than they are right. And ESPN just posted their ESPN lineups picks on the game. All their writers, all their columnists, their commentators, et cetera. And I wanted to see where they all lined up.

52 ESPN people picked the Super Bowl. 29 picked the Rams and 23 picked the Bengals. So it's not like an overwhelming, you know, what does that come out to? like 55 to 45% something like that, you know, advantage on the Rams. So it's not an overwhelming, you know, pundit pick of the Rams. But I'm always interested in that. And I would have preferred, quite honestly, to see most of the pundits picking Cincinnati. And I do have a sense that a lot of people like Cincinnati because, I mean, Cincinnati beat the chiefs at Arrowhead.

That's a big deal. They beat the number one seed the week before. And they're coming in with a hot quarterback. And I think that there's a lot of also people just hoping that the Bengals win the Super Bowl. I think the Rams are just a better team. And I think they're going to prove it on Sunday. I think the Chiefs more times than not are the better team. And they didn't prove it.

So anything can happen. It's an NFL game. But I did think that I was hoping to see more Cincinnati from the experts than the Rams. but many of the Rams, many of the pundits at ESPN picked the Rams. 29 to 23. I wonder if Van Pelt weighed in on this. No, it looks like it's mostly like their columnists and their NFL insiders picked the game. So 29, 23 there.

I still like the Rams, off seeing that. The second thing I wanted to hit on here in the open is I really feel awful. for Bradley Beal. He wasn't having a very good season. He's out for the year with this wrist surgery, but I also feel really badly for the Wizards. Boy, they're in a tough, tough situation. And I have a recommendation, which I'll get to in a moment. But the tough situation is now they can't trade Beale, even though, to be fair, I didn't think they were going to trade Beal. And now they've got a player coming off a serious injury and off a season that wasn't going very well. Their season is essentially over without him.

If they were to keep him after the trade deadline, which I think they were going to do, they're not going to be able to make a run even if they make moves here at the trade deadline, which I think they're going to try to make a couple of moves. Wouldn't be surprised to see like a mantra as Harold get moved with his expiring contract. But the Wizards just can't catch a break, man. They cannot catch a break. Now they've got to make a decision in the offseason. And now it's more of a decision, although I don't think it's much of a decision.

Do you pay him $250 million, you know, and understand that, you know, he has played by the way. He's missed, by the way, let me rephrase it. 79 games in the last three seasons. And remember last year was a 72-game regular season. He's essentially missed an entire regular season of games in the last three years. So you're going to have to pay him this money to keep. him. He'll probably take it now. It's an extra year and it's an extra 50 million bucks. Actually, I think it's an extra 60 million that the Wizards can offer. And he's going to be your highest paid

player and your best player. And it's not good enough. If he's your best player, you're never going to contend. If he's your highest paid player, you're just never going to contend in a big way. I would love for the Wizards to tank. I'd like to see him try to deal all of their veteran players, especially those on expiring contracts, get anybody to take Bertons off your hands, play all of your young people, and try to get into the lottery. You know, a lot of people don't love the draft.

There are some players in the draft that I like. I watched one last night in Jabari Smith with Auburn. I'm not going to call him Kevin Durant. Okay, that's a little bit crazy, but he is 610 with a handle as a perimeter player, and he is unstoppable when he goes up to shoot the basketball. It's an unblockable shot. He is a freshman.

He's averaging 16 a game. He's got great touch. Can really score. I love him. Now, a lot of people are talking about him recently as a potential number one overall pick in front of Bancaro and Holmgren. But I really like Javari Smith. But, you know, they're not going to end up with the number one pick, more likely than not. But anyway, feel badly for the Wizards.

Feel badly for Brad. Tough spot, but I'd like to see him tank. Ted never tanks. He wants to make a run for, you know, the play-in round and get a series where you can get the extra revenue from a couple of home playoff games. Lastly, before we get to Howard, it's been a week since the name reveal and the uniforms

and the crest of the patch with the wrong championship years and, you know, last Wednesday was, you know, typical of them not very well planned, not very well executed. They did not stick the landing, as they say. Now, again, and I said this to Tommy yesterday, I think part of it wasn't necessarily their fault because everybody kind of knew the name going into the day. But anyway, a week later, you know, how do you feel? I took calls on this on the radio show this morning. And it's kind of what I predicted. I'm not back slapping here, but I said that this was going to be a totally different feeling about the team and about losing the Redskins name. Because the last two years were interim. It was Washington. Yeah, the Washington football team

got made fun of, but it was still Washington. It still looked like our team with the exception of the helmets, you know, and no logo. But the uniforms looked the same. And we were talking about a Washington Dallas game and a Washington Philly game and we can still talk that way in the future. But I knew there was going to be something of a finality to the Redskins name

with an actual real name and a new look. The Washington commanders and the uniforms that, you know, certainly the road uniforms that won't look anything like anything we've ever rooted for in the past. I have yet to talk to one person

of any age or demo demographic that likes what happened last week, likes the commanders, likes any of the new branding. You know, I don't want to just sit here and say they blew it because I think it was a hard thing to actually, you know, get right.

I do think, and I think I've mentioned this to Tommy and even before, I think the easiest transition would have been Washington, Warriors and keep the uniforms, change the logo, put some sort of, you know, the W on the helmet would have been fine, whatever. I think that would have been the easiest transition, but this one is a jarring transition. Washington commanders, you know, the uniforms, none of which look like any team we've ever rooted for before, okay, there's some burgundy and gold on the home uniforms. It's an expansion team. That's where we are. It's an expansion team in town,

with unfortunately the same GD owner. And it's going to be hard, man. It's going to be hard. I don't want to be so down on it. And I love talking about football and talking about the team. But in terms of the passion for the team to do well, to win, to root for them, man, last week and a week later I'm sitting here and it's like, I got an expansion team in town.

How do you deal with that? Well, you know, unfortunately it's got the same owner. You know, the Baltimore Colts left in 1983, was it? 82 or 83? And they didn't have football for over a decade before they got the Ravens, before the Browns moved from Cleveland to Baltimore. That's different. You know, they've embraced the Ravens.

And it was probably pretty hard for Colts fans to do that to embrace a new brand and a new name. But they didn't have football. We haven't lost football. And by the way, I don't, not suggesting that I'd rather us lose football. No. And Washington would never lose football anyway. It's too big of a market with, you know, with too lucrative an opportunity for the league, which it's not being taken advantage of right now.

But, you know, if we had been without football for 10 years, it would have been much different because we would have been desperate for it to come back. I mean, those that are baseball fans, and I'm just bear. old enough to remember when the senators left. It was so cool to get the Nationals back. Didn't care that it was the Washington Nationals and not the Washington Senators. Of course, there wasn't the success or the attachment or the emotional attachment to the senators like we had with the Redskins.

And, by the way, the Nationals were a previous name of a Washington baseball organization way, way back in the day. But a week later, I don't know anybody that likes it. I don't know. Anybody that thinks they got it right. And this is one of those things where they better win and win quickly. Or whatever's left of the fan base will be gone. And whatever they hope to attract in the form of new and younger won't give it a shot.

They have to win next year. If they want to have any chance of resuscitating the business, of the Washington football NFL team, the commanders. They better win and they better win in a big way. They better be a contender next year in the NFC. And one more thing on this too, because it is now final, right? And there's a new name and there's everything new. As the expansion team with the same owner, you know, plans an offseason

and we'll play a schedule next year with home games at FedEx Field. I'm not going to refer to former players ever as commanders, ever. Okay, Darrell Green was a Washington Redskin. Art Monk was a Washington Redskin. John Riggins and Sonny Jurgensen and Joe Thysman were Washington Redskins. Sean Taylor was a Washington Redskin. Chris Cooley, Santana. Moss were Washington Redskins. The RG3 magical 2012 season, RG3 played for the Washington Redskins.

But really, when you go back to the conversations that we have more often, at least among some of us, when we start talking about, you know, the glory years, Joe Gibbs coached the Washington Redskins. I'm not going to ever purchase, I'm not a Jersey purchaser anyway. But it's not going to be pleasant to look at a Washington commander's jersey with number 44 on it. Now, I know Riggo well, and I love John. And John would be the first to tell you probably. I have no idea. I haven't talked to him.

He couldn't care less as long as he's getting money for it. And these things he does not care deeply about. Obviously, he's got fond memories of being a Super Bowl MVP for this franchise. But as a fan, no one's going to tell me that John Riggins was a Washington commander ever. Anyway, let's get to Howard Gutman and this investigation that the Washington commanders are going to launch here shortly. We'll get to Howard right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Two things before I get to this Howard Gutman introduction. Number one, there was some news that came out after I interviewed Howard for the podcast today.

The NFL is now saying that the Washington investigation won't stop the league itself from conducting its own inquiry into Tiffany Johnston's allegations of sexual harassment. So I wanted you to know that so you didn't think that I forgot to bring that up. This came out after my conversation with Howard. And also, you'll hear me refer to the Roger Goodell sort of State of the Union Super Bowl press conference. I thought that was tomorrow or Friday. I looked at the TV moments ago. It's actually happening today. But anyway, here's my interview with Howard Gutman about the news today.

that Washington's launching an investigation of the Tiffany Johnston allegations. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. It doesn't cost you a thing. Rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify. It's a huge help if you do that on Apple in particular, both of them. But most of you are listening on Apple. And if you haven't rated us, please do it whenever you get a chance. It takes 30 seconds and write a quick one to two sentence review about how much you like.

the podcast. Joining me on the podcast right now is Howard Gutman. Howard, long time ambassador to Belgium in the Obama administration, a very successful lawyer in town for years, just one of the smartest people in Washington for sure. And he's joining me right now. And I called you because I wanted to see what your reaction to Dan Snyder and the footwork. football team launching their own investigation into this Tiffany Johnston thing was, and you didn't know about it. So just to reset it again, and there are other things I want to talk to you about as well. But earlier today, it was announced that the commanders have hired an independent investigative team to look into Tiffany Johnston's allegations of sexual harassment against

Dan Snyder. Howard, you are aware of what Tiffany Johnston told Congress. last week. It was a new allegation, one that was not actually given to Beth Wilkinson and her report, because Tiffany Johnston was never interviewed as one of the 150 witnesses. It was a new allegation. Snyder came out the next day through his attorney, denying it and essentially calling her a liar, and now they're investigating this one allegation against him. Your reaction is what? It's a typical smoke and mirrors. Their club is now taking the position that whatever happened before was settled by Beth Wilkinson. That was resolved by the $10 million fine.

That was not a fine. It was just directing the club's normal charitable contributions. And this is something new, and guess what? It will turn out that there will be no way to substantiate, prove, disprove, or the like whether dan under the table put his hand on the thigh or put with trying to force someone in the car so you can get as many great lawyers as you want you can get every former u.s. attorney

they're going to say this allegation was not proven but it speaks but they're too cute by a half that would then say well if you're going to release this one you're going to release witness notes you're going to release interview notes you're going to release the report Where is Beth Wilkinson's report? Where is all the other allegations and what the club is going to say is, oh, no, no, no, no. That one was done.

A new one came up, and so we wanted to investigate the new one, and the negative pregnancy is unbelievable. It just screams the question, why are you releasing this if you didn't release Betts report? So you only decide to go down this path, correct to me if I'm wrong, if you really believe that the allegation is either a false or be completely unprovable, so that at the end of this, because they did announce also, that the findings of this report would be released to the public. So this is like, you know, he's got this one allegation, that is not provable.

He can do an investigation. He can announce the findings of the investigation, which, by the way, I've already checked online. It's basically even money that he's going to be cleared of these allegations with this report. I'm kidding, of course, but of course that's going to be the result, right? And it ends up being almost a huge PR move where he can say, see, I mean, this allegation, you know,

we had an independent investigation of it, and I was, you know, it was found that it was not true, so you don't have to worry about any of the other stuff from the Beth Wilkinson report. Exactly where they're headed. Because look at the nature of the allegations. It's at a dinner table. Did his hand go on her side? Did he, he might have, who knows what?

And when you are going to your cars and you kind of have that steer someone on their back, was that something? and so the question is, when she says his lawyer says, Dan, Dan, Dan, that's not a good idea. The lawyer's going to say, I don't remember any such thing. Dan's going to say, I don't remember any such thing. Tiffany's going to say I do, and that's the end of it. And if he can get by that I was wrongfully accused of everything,

look at the report we released. That puts to rest in his mind. It's not going to work. puts to rest in his mind the demands to release the Beth Wilkinson report. The one part of the allegations that Tiffany Johnston made, obviously the hand on her thigh underneath the table after she was asked to dress cute, dressed cute and then placed next to him, that was not corroborated. What was corroborated by Jason Friedman, who was a VP with the football team at that point,

was the attempt to push her into the limousine. However, you know, and the attorney was there as well. But wouldn't there be some, you know, question as to whether or not that is anything? You know, you know, whether it was aggressive or not aggressive, you know, it's much different than placing your hand on a woman's thigh without being asked to, right? Kevin, when we had coffee, I offered you a ride. You did. That's exactly it. I did. I offered you a ride. And by the way, I could have pointed to where my car was parked.

And so if he has a limo, you and I come up in our, you know, Priuses or whatever. He's come up in the big Danny limo. And, of course, one of his signature moves, it's not a sexual signature move. It's an impress you signature move. It's whether he's with Benadzee or Kevin Sheehan or Tiffany. You wouldn't with me. Let me give you a ride to your car in my limo because it's waiting right outside and you had a park, you know, the 10-minute walk away because the venue's all crowded except he has a limo waiting.

That is, by the way, I know from a third party we both know a very normal Dan move to say, take a ride in my limo to your car. I don't think that's sexual necessarily. That's just the sort of the Napoleon complex. I'm a big guy complex. Right. So tell me about when you hire a supposed independent investigative team and you're paying that independent investigative team. What does someone like me who doesn't understand this, but would intuitively say, well, that's not very independent if you're paying them. How independent is it? What's the nature of him paying an independent investigative team to produce a result? Is it a bought and paid for a result? Should I just assume that? No. So the Gibson Dunn lawyer will do the legitimate investigation. These are people who are

quality. Normally it's hired by the board of directors to report to the board, and if it's a public company, it can become public. This is the exact question on the Beth Wilkinson and this common interest issue, which is, if Danny and the NFL wanted to share conferences, each one with the other's lawyer, without waiving their privilege, I don't see how that would cover Beth at all. I cannot imagine when the NFL took over the investigation, they said, but Beth will remain a lawyer for you, Dan. I can't imagine that when the NFL took over the investigation, the thought was anything Dan said to the lawyer or anybody else would be privileged.

I don't believe what's happened is there's been a common interest privilege that's kept the report from coming out. I believe what happened is Goodell said in advance to Beth before you come. up with a final report. There are hundreds of, there are tens of thousands of pages of information. There's hundreds of pages she wrote of interview memos. I know how long she did it. They do interview memos. There are notes. But Gooddale said, before you put it down, I want to hear where we're going. Once he heard where he's going, he said, do me a favor, don't put it down. Because unless he knows that the owners have the appetite to throw Danny out, it's just causing a headache.

And I can tell you, the owners do not have an appetite. Kevin, if the standard was, did you, owner of the club, ever put your hand on a young woman employee cheerleader sigh unwantedly, how many of those owners would remain owners? Right. Yeah, I mean, that's the issue, right? Unless it's really, really something egregious, something that they just, if it ever came out, It could be devastating that they didn't do anything about it. It's there for the grace of God, go I, if we take him down. That's exactly it.

So they're not going to throw someone out for a hand on the thigh under the table once. I can't imagine what the other owners did. But in any event, you can prove that one. So by demanding that one be one that is a written report, you distract from the rest. It's what else they've done. When the council said, we will release every email that's not attorney-client. Right. Why just the emails?

What about the memos, the interview notes? We don't care about the emails. Danny didn't write an email saying, I did it. You caught me. We don't need the emails. We need the interview notes. We need the preliminary draft. I don't know why the club, so the club always says.

release is something that's set, makes it sound like they're being open, but if you look at what they've excluded by not mentioning it, you realize it's just a fake to the left. I want to stick with this latest report about this investigation into the Tiffany Johnston claim last week. Obviously, you can't do a thorough investigation without interviewing Tiffany Johnston. What incentive would she have, if you were her attorney, or what will her attorney tell

her as to whether or not to meet with this investigator that is, you know, again, and you said these are credible people and they're going to do a real investigative report, et cetera, but do you think she'll sit down and talk to these investigators or not? Of course.

At this point, first of all, Gibson Dunn is a totally crabble firm. They will report just what she says. Second, she's a red federal. And on the club's behalf, you've got to understand people now with having hired Deborah Katz, Debracats is a fabulous lawyer. I would never want her trained against me because she's going to go after unrelentingly to get sexual harassment victims or alleged victims.

I wasn't there, and I don't know. Victims or alleged victims' compensation. So at this point, once they're public, there is incentive on the Danny's defense, there is incentive for people to now remember, you know when he gave me that look, that look meant this, or you know when he brushed me like this, or you know when I sat next to him, didn't he put his hand on my thigh? So I'm not saying Tiffany Johnson's making anything up, I'm not saying she's not making anything up, but there is economic incentive going the other way. Right.

So this becomes that he said, she said. We don't know what the truth is, but the one thing we do know is the club saying they'll do this one and release this one, should not distract anyone from saying, well, of course you're going to release this one, but where's the Wilkinson waiver? Right, because going into this, as we said at the very beginning, we pretty much can predict the result of this investigation. You know, the fact that they've already said we're going to release it all,

we can predict what the result will be. Now, another question about Tiffany Johnson, This would have to be for Dan and the team. This would have to be pretty strict in terms of what they are investigating, right? Like what if Tiffany Johnston or somebody else that's interviewed, you know, says something that leads to another accusation or another figure that maybe we don't even know of or perhaps is in the Beth Wilkinson report going into this investigation, it would have to be really spelled out very clearly that this is an investigation of Tiffany John's.

Constance claim and nothing else, right? Absolutely, and you've hit your, you've hit it on the head. If I were Gibson and I want to do it legitimately, to no one, he said, she said, whether it's he said or she said, I've got to know who they are. So that, to me, would reopen the entire Beth Wilkinson investigation. I would want to know, did you ever have any other personal problems with other female employees? and reopen it. So I guarantee you the retainer agreement,

which is what we ought to see, will spell out dates, times, and limits as sharply as they could. And even if it did, I would try to take the position, not because I'm not because I'm trying to create trouble for anybody if I were the investigator, but because even if I'm only investigating an incident

that took place yesterday, that's what I'm investigating, but to do so, I need to know what you did a year ago and five years ago to understand who these people are. So it will have to, the retainer agreement will have to try to avoid it, but this could spin out of control for the commanders. Yeah, that's what I was wondering, because if it's not truly defined and if they don't, you know, put some sort of a limit on what they can do, yeah, I mean, the way you just explained it is, so logical. It's like not only to find out something about Tiffany Johnson, but to find out about Dan and about anybody else

that's come forward. This could, like, could this backfire on him. We know that a lot of the stuff they've done over the years. Like, there isn't a lot of thought that goes into it, and sometimes it does backfire. Could it backfire? Kevin, rule number one is the criminal

defense attorney is when your clients in the hole tell them to stop digging. They should never have reopen this. Yes. Dan should have said in one second, enough of this, hand on the ankle, hand on the thigh. 13 years ago, she retired with a happy letter. I'm not dignifying any of these anymore enough. Instead, he said, oh, I might actually be innocent. This one, let me prove my innocence. And he reopened it to a way where ultimately, I never thought this would take him down. But if you give enough opportunities, every,

eventually something could fall. He just, it's always, he's playing chess, one move ahead. And I know that's how I played checkers, so I shouldn't be playing chess. But this is a mistake. He should have poo-pooed it, walked on, and never addressed it again. You don't see Robert Kraft now demanding investigations as to how many times he's walked by massage parlors without going in. Right. Right. Like there's, you know, the NFL strategy, right, has always been, you know what? The games will come on Sunday and we will forecorner Dean Smith this thing out. Like eventually it'll go away. And by the way, until the emails came out with the John Gruden thing, it had really started to go away. But Dan can't handle it that way. You know, whether it's going after Bruce and Dwight Schar and all of those lawsuits, I think every time they get into this and,

And even the statements, I think I've mentioned this to you before, and this is just reminding me of just kind of the mistakes they make. You know, I can't believe that somebody, I've mentioned it many times, doesn't say, Dan, stop talking about these allegations every time they come up being so old. He always refers to them as being old, you know, 10 years, 15 years, and this most recent thing 13 years ago. And then at the same time, he'll say, you know, I've got to get more involved. I haven't been involved in recent years. Well, this is easy calendar math. When he was involved is when all of the allegations took place. It was when he wasn't as involved, or at least he's trying to tell you he wasn't as involved,

and it was all Bruce's fault, is when we don't have any of these allegations. It's amazing to me. The minute he came up with this idea, that this one I'm fine, why don't we do an investigation? Somebody should have said, why don't you shut up? Why don't we talk next about our name, our number one draft pick, search for the quarterback, and our stadium? And why don't we put stories about football on top of your mess and have it go away?

And instead, we now have to talk about credentials of Gibson Dunn lawyers. in the pantheon of bad ideas, this is right at the top. It is right at the top, but I want to just summarize this, because I have a couple of other things I want to talk to you about. The odds are stacked heavily that they're pursuing something that they know more likely than not, even though they trip over themselves all the time, and things backfire on them all the time. More than likely, they feel like the outcome of this one is going to be a press release.

lease. Correct. Okay. By the way, how long will this take? I'm just curious. It depends on the question you asked earlier. If it's Tiffany Johnson and the one guy who corroborated and the lawyer and Dan, it'll take two months because the lawyers have to bill at least two months even in. But if it slips open, if the crack gets opened, it's another Beth Wilkinson and we'll be looking We might be here next year providing plenty of talk radio. You know, one of the things that they should not have done in this release, press release about this investigation, is to commit to making those findings public.

Like, you didn't, I mean, I'm sure it would have been asked and people to said, well, is this one going to be kept private to the results of it? But once you commit up front to the findings being made public at the end of this, and then you change your mind because you don't like the result. Well, then we know what the result was. Okay. So has anything, as we talked to Howard Gutman, one of the smartest people in Washington, and I love how you're just able to put this very succinctly always.

So tell me about the last week here with respect to the congressional stuff and then the common interest agreement. Did any of what's happened over the last week? push forward the possibility or increase the possibility that, A, we get to see the Beth Wilkinson report. B, he loses his team. We got closer because it's alive. If you just put it to sleep, it would remain asleep. The common interest agreement, I don't think, prevents Beth Wilkinson's material from being released. what I believe happened was

Beth has hundreds of pages of interview notes with her team. She had a large team at her firm doing this. She has hundreds of pages of interviews. She has draft sections written by associates, and she probably went to see Jeff Passhing, a

40-year buddy of mine, a classmate of mine, the general counsel of the NFL, and Goodell and said, here's where I come out, and Goodell said, hold on a little bit. He talked to some of the owners, Jerry Jones, and the like, and they called back and said, you know, Beth, you know, all that work and paper and stuff, let's not put it down, but there's plenty of stuff that exists right up to that point.

And will it come out? Well, it depends on how many mistakes are made. When the club this week said, we'll release all emails, somebody should have said, why just emails? What about memos and witness interviews from any witness who agrees, which will be a lot. every witness. Someone's got to ask that question, but eventually these questions will be asked. But here's the last thing we don't really know. We don't really know if when you put it all out there, whether there's anything Dan did himself or whether it's just that there was a heinous environment by a football club in the last 20 years, which I suspect obviously is true.

And I suspect the Washington Redskins, the Washington football team were no different than some of the other clubs. There probably was pretty bad locker rooms. When you do it in Washington, it's going to be pretty appalling. I think this week, and I was thinking about this as you were just talking, Roger Goodell holds, you know, the state of the union of the NFL during Super Bowl week, and there are going to be a lot of questions about this. And I'm not suggesting that this isn't going to be asked, but one of the questions that should be asked of Roger Goodell is what were Beth Wilkinson's recommendations at the end of her of her report. And did you follow them?

Because there was a report by Jason Bishop. I know Jason very well, the 106-7, the fans, sports junkies, you know, almost a year ago that they had gotten a copy of a report that was recommending that Dan be forced out of the league to sell the team. And the league vehemently denied, but what they were denied. denying is that they had received a report. I think somebody's got to ask Adele just what were Beth Wilkinson's

recommendations? And by the way, was one of them that Dan Snyder should be forced to sell the team? Or that level, I don't I mean, I don't know how he'll handle the question, but they've got to ask that question. Can you think of any others?

That is the perfect question. and here's the million-dollar issue that follows, which is, does he say that is attorney-client-privileged information? Because that's his only out. That then says, wait a minute, this is the question that jumped with the common interest. You're taking the position that Beth Wilkinson was acting in her investigative capacity as either your lawyer, Dan's lawyer, or both? And to ask it that way, that's where the pressure, no one's ever articulated that what they're saying by this common interest agreement, if that's the reason it's being withheld, is that Beth wasn't hired by an organization to report about its personnel, including its owner. It wasn't hired by the league to report on the owner of one of its teams. it was hired by the owner of the team as the client.

And there's no way in which that investigation, when it was taken over by the NFL, should possibly have been structured, that the NFL is having a very respected and talented lawyer, review the conduct of the owner of the Washington Redskins at the time she remained. his attorney. That can't be, but that's the only way Roger Goodell could say, I'm not going to tell you. Well, he could say it's an attorney-client,

or he could say that's internal private at the league. And you tell me what that second sentence meant, internal private the league. So you're saying it can be told. You just prefer not to let us know what the smartest investigator who took

a year got paid millions of dollars by the league concluded. So why did you do it? Right. If you exonerate him, we'll reveal it. But if you don't, we're going to bury it. But I'm sure Jerry Jones, I'm not demeaning Jerry Jones or just a generic owner, whoever he consults with.

Remember, Roger Goodell answers to 32 bosses, 31 in that case because Dan couldn't really say it. Jeff Pash is a fabulous lawyer. It was a classmate of mine, a friend of mine, but his job turns on 30. two bosses. And if they say, look, Dan goes down for this, unsaid, a lot of us would do this. There wasn't, you know, cheerleaders and champagne parties and lack of respect and misogynistic conduct. We're talking football players and rich guys in the 80s and the 90s and the aughts. They're all in trouble. Bury it. Roger Goodell is gritting his teeth because for what he makes, I would grip my teeth as well.

By the way, I think the answer that Goodell would give, or maybe I would recommend that he give, is we took Beth's recommendations, and we ended up fining the team $10 million, which is the largest fine ever imposed on one of our teams for an environment that, and then go through everything that was in that press statement back in June or July whenever it came out, about a toxic culture, about a culture that was not, that was misogynistic, that was included bullying and intimidating, essentially just read the press release on the $10 million fine. You know, we took Beth's recommendations and we decided, but that's not answering the question, but I think that's how he would get around it.

You know, the report from 1067 the fan, the junkies a year ago really focused more on Beth Wilkinson's recommendation being a recommendation because of not necessarily what she uncovered in her investigation, but Snyder's attempt to influence the investigation, to cover up part of the investigation, to stop various people from talking, even though ultimately I think they released, you know, almost everybody from the NDAs. But, you know, obviously, the league took that investigation back from Dan. And apparently that was Beth. GRIPE according to the report. Does that make sense to you?

Yes, but only if when the league took it back, there was no longer a privilege with the Washington Redskins at the time where it's owner. And if Beth was independent to do an investigation, which she was, I'm sure nobody tampered at the league level with her investigation. What they finally said is, thank you. You've done a great job. We're not going to tell anybody what you found out.

you didn't answer the question, did we get, or have we gotten any closer? Well, you did answer the question. I mean, I know what your answer is based on this conversation. You don't think we've gotten any closer to Dan losing the team because of, you know, we keep coming back to the default, which makes a lot of sense. And the default is, unless it was really terrible, these owners aren't going down that path. These owners are not going to throw Dan out over a bad environment, over words that had innuendo, or over kind of passing, spontaneous touching.

He would have had to assault somebody, and we have no idea of, you know, no allegations for race and homophobic or any of that stuff. had any of that. None of that. Yeah. And he's not, I mean, I don't, I don't have any reason to believe he is. He's generally kind of regarded as a bullion of Napoleon, but I suspect there wouldn't, that wouldn't be alone among the owners there. Yeah.

I know this has nothing to do with specifically what we're just talking about, but why do you, why does he want to own this team? Why does he want to fight this fight every, you know, every couple of weeks, every couple of days. Why does he, you know, I often say that I don't think he realizes how despised he is in this town. I think that there's some shelter there from that. But they do know. They have to know at this point.

Why the hell would he want to own this team now, rather than just selling it for $5 billion? We know now exactly because of what they did today. He believes right around the corner, if only he could get to end. X, he would be exonerated. And so today, he thought this is an opening to get an exoneration. Today, the let's look at the Tiffany Johnson allegations and write a report. He thinks that his exoneration as opposed to bringing him back down again. So, you know, it's a little bit, a little bit like the Kevin Sheehan advice on gambling,

which is if you're down a lot, don't stop betting. Well, you've got to have big cahooners to understand that if you are down, you're not going to get it back inching your way back. You're going to get it back by thinking big. But my real advice is don't gamble unless you really can afford to lose money, because you will lose money. I know that there's so many other things that I want to talk to you about. You have kind of a theory on how we got to commanders.

You've got some thoughts on Brian Flores. can we do that maybe one day next week? Love to do it. I got to tell you the commanders or the absence of considering others speaks volumes on the issues we were talking about with Danny. And if you read Peter King today talking about how if the Giants had really didn't consider Brian Forres, they've got trouble. And if Stephen Ross offered him 100,000 a game to throw it, he's got trouble,

Peter King has no idea about law and either of those issues. The Brian Forrest complaint is worth everybody reading. It's a fascinating I love to come on and talk about. Let's do that, maybe much sooner rather than later. Thank you, as always. Appreciate it, Howard. My pleasure. All the best, Kevin.

Howard Gutman, everybody. Man, I enjoy my conversations with Howard. I really do. That was fun. more importantly, it was very informative and we'll get him on the show next week to talk about some of those other things. I mean, the Stephen Ross situation in Miami,

the Brian Flores lawsuit against the league, a lot of stuff that Howard really does understand and he's able to communicate it so well. Up next, why would Seattle think about trading Russell Wilson? We'll get the answer from someone who covers the Seattle Seahawks for the athletes,

right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's welcome on to the show Michael Sean Dugar. Mike covers the Seahawks for the Athletic. You can follow him on Twitter at Mike Dugar, D-U-G-A-R. We had Mike on right before Seattle played Washington on Monday Night Football in November. And Michael, we want to talk quarterback here in Russell Wilson specifically because we are in one of those quarterback desperate. markets here in D.C. But before we get to that, I was thinking about you and everybody else in

Seattle that have had the luxury year and year out of covering big games or if you're a fan of the team, rooting for a team in big games year and year out for a decade now. I mean, Seattle's been pretty much a contender year and year out. And yet this year for the first time in a while, I know you didn't go to the playoffs a few years ago, but you know, you guys. were legitimately out of it with, you know, still weeks left in the season. What was that like to cover our team for the first time that was really, you know, out of it for most of the season? Yeah, I mean, I think they were eliminated from the postseason on like December, whenever they played the Rams on like that weird Tuesday, because that's when all the games got

shuffled, that was like right before Christmas or something like that. I don't think they've ever been eliminated that early under Pete Carroll since 2011. Like, even the year in 2017, they didn't make the postseason. It came down to, like, the final year or the final game of the year, the final kick by Blair Walsh. I think at that point, the Panthers had lost or something like that, so they were done. But we didn't find that out until, like, two minutes left in the fourth quarter. So there's always been meaningful football in December in Seattle.

And, like, after Christmas, everything was just irrelevant. a very weird feeling in the building. That must be nice. Been a long time feeling that way around here. 2018 and 19, it felt kind of shaky, but like generally speaking, it's always kind of been, hey, if the Seahawks have Russell Wilson, they got a shot. This was the kind of one year that didn't hold true, although this is also the one year Russell Wilson missed a month or a season, and then came back and stunk for a month.

It's kind of threw the math off, but yeah, some people kind of push back at me when I say like every season in the championship robust, it is. And I'm echoing the feelings of the guys in the building. They all want to win a championship every year, like being the running for one. Like, there's no,

this whole losing the wild card round and losing the division around. That's not it. You know, Pete expects to win a champ. Pete Carroll expects to win every year. You know, if you ask them about the, the Beechcquake run in 2010, that Marchon Lynch

running against the faints in the wild card round in the playoffs. Right. So, like, all right, yeah, that was a great run. But we lost to Chicago the next week. He almost always says that after. Why? Because that run did not win them a championship. It got him a touchdown.

One touchdown. That's it. One great touchdown, but the goal was bigger than one touchdown. So when I say things of championship are blessed around here, like, that's not just me. That's the coaching staff. That's the players. That's the captains. Everyone feels like that's what they should be competing for every year.

All right, Michael, let's talk about why I called you, because our team here is in dire need of a quarterback. as are, by the way, now many teams. I mean, probably more teams this offseason than even last year are legitimately going to be trying to swing big, you know, to land a quarterback, whether it's, you know, free agency trade or in the draft. And that's consuming the conversation around here these days, you know, after the whole naming thing of last week. And congressional inquiries and all the other stuff that our franchise deals with.

But I want to focus on football. why do I and other NFL media people and other NFL fans, why is there kind of a collective thought in the NFL community, if you will, that Russell Wilson could get traded or wants to be traded? Because he let us know that he wanted to be. I mean, I think that that's an underrated part about all this, is that Russell Wilson, even though he doesn't have that reputation, you know, across sports, like he basically pulled a James Hardin or a, you know, a Jalen Ramsey or Stefan Diggs,

like guys that like let everyone know publicly like, yo, this, where I'm at right now, this may not be the best thing for me. Now, those guys all just named eventually got moved and Russ hasn't, but they, you know, they had a spell there where they were kind of viewed, and Odo Beckham as well. Like they had a spell there where they were viewed as like, not cancer, but, you know, the malcontent, you know, the diva or whatever, like the guy. who needed to get out of it to fix the locker room, quote-unquote. Rustin hasn't gone that far, mostly because he didn't say

definitively that he wanted to trade, but you think about it, most of the trade stuff has come. It's like, people say sources close to Wilson or whatever. You know, it's very really the teams like, yeah, now we want this guy out of here, or the Seahawks are shopping, Russell Wilson. Even last year, I think the report was from like CBS that the Seahawks have gotten calls. That means they received them. They probably didn't call nobody.

And even John Snyder, the GM, acknowledged last year. Like, yeah, teams called, and I didn't negotiate with any of them. You know, so it doesn't seem like the team to generate anything. So when you say, like, not use it specifically, but like, oh, Russell Wilson is on the trade bloc. Like, I don't know. I don't think the Seahawks will that way. Does Russell Wilson feel that way? It's probably a different way of framing the question that's a bit more pertinent to the discussion.

I just think that Hayes kind of in control of this more than the team, which makes sense because there's no trade cards. Even if they wanted to trade them, he could just like, no. I love it here. So I don't know where Russ's head is at on that. You know, he said nothing but Gohawks on the record since he was at the Pro Bowl and kind of showed everyone his fingers healed. I don't know, was that just to show Seattle fans of fingers healed, national media, other teams that may warn him. You know, who knows where his head is at right now? So let's not bury the lead.

Do you think that he'll get traded in this offseason, yes or no? I don't think so. I don't think that a rational Russell Wilson can look around the league and decide that there's a better opportunity out there for him to immediately win championships. I just don't think so. I don't just say Seattle's got the best roster or whatever right now, but the grass is not always greener. And I think Russell Wilson and Aaron Rogers will both sit down if they're rational. Neither one of those two quarterbacks always act rationally.

Aaron Rogers showed his funky feet on Zoom and Russ had the bears on his list last year. So like those two are always thinking straight, right? Russ. You know, Roger's taking a science advice from Joe Rogan. So you'll be careful thinking that, assuming that everyone's going to act rationally. But if they do,

I just don't see a scenario where Russ looks around. It's like, yep, this spot is better for me than here. Same thing with Aaron Rogers. So, why you mentioned it comes from Russ? Why did

it come from Russ last year? And, you know, we don't know if it'll come from Russ this year or not, but why? Why did he speak to the possibility of being traded? Or wanting to be? I mean, I would assume

the same reason than all those guys that I mentioned do. I mean, look at all the guys who've gotten traded recently, with the exception to maybe like Kululmaq, like, it's a little bit. bigger names that got traded. They wanted out, you know? Stefan Diggs is like, man, Kirk stinks. Get me out of here, right?

He's like, all right, sent to the Buffalo. Jaylon Ramsey was like, I hate Jack to go. He didn't say that. Specifically, which I was like, I want out of here. There's been plenty of guys who just wanted to change the situation. I think Russ's love for Seattle and the city and the franchise is conditional, like anything else. Like, hey, you know, I love Seattle, as long as I can win multiple championships here.

You know, that's kind of how he views it. You know, he wants to win multiple. This is a guy who went to two in his first three seasons. You know, like he lost the Tom Brady in the 2014 season Super Bowl, and then Brady proceeded to make like three more Super Bowls, and Russ hasn't cracked the NFC title game since, right? That matters to him. It matters to him when he's been hot for years,

and then out of nowhere kind of comes Patrick Mahon, wins MVP, and then Russ starts on fire, and then Lamar comes out of nowhere, and wins MVP, you know, and now, like, Joe Broke, kind of the new hotness on the block, right? Like, that matters. That matters to Russ. And if he doesn't feel like the situation he's currently in, can elevate him to legendary status,

a multiple-time Super Bowl winning champion, and he acts out. You know, and I think any quarterback who cares about his legacy as much as Russ does, you know, will always prioritize winning over his, you know, sentiments towards any city or any franchise. People listening know that you touched a nerve there when you said Stefan Diggs hates Kirk and won it out.

So I'll just respond to it because people will be wondering why I didn't respond to it. Stefan Diggs couldn't stand Mike Zimmer either, as do a lot of the offensive players there, which is why he's gone. But we'll leave that one there. But, you know, where do you think Russ is in his career right now in terms of the quality of player? He has, I understand he was hurt. You and I talked about that before. the Washington game. He probably came back too early for the Packer game at Lambo.

And then all of a sudden, by the way, at the end of the year, they won four of their final six. They beat the 49ers. They beat the Cardinals when the Cardinals had to have it. And I know Rashad Penny got rolling after he got healthy. But what kind of Russell Wilson is Seattle or somebody else going to see next year and beyond? Where is he at this point in his career? I think he's still an elite quarterback, man. And I just think that he hit a spell there where he got, well, he got hurt. So there's that. And he came back too soon and sunk it up for a month.

Now, if he was like a rookie quarterback or something like that or a younger guy like Carson Wentz, you know, when he kind of downslide, then maybe I go, all right, something's wrong here. But no, I think he's got a huge, 10-year sample size, or 9-and-a-half-year sample size of high-quality football, high-quality accuracy for one. And I think that shows up every time he goes to the damn Pro Bowl and just smokes everyone in these throwing contests because he can really sling it at a level that's just much higher than a lot of other people. You know, he's an elite quarterback. He's an elite thrower of the football.

Like, I think to isolate that part right there. Like, I don't think there's very many quarterbacks who throw a better deep ball. And he was just, when you break a finger on your throwing hand, that impacts your accuracy a little bit. But, you know, I always thought this was interesting. You know, the doctor told him what, six, eight weeks after. So he broke his finger against the Rams. Surgery was the next day. And Russ was like, you know, I'll just come back in three or four.

And it's like, well, I guess that sounded good in the real time. And he comes back and he stinks. And it's like, well, maybe you should have waited the eight weeks. And I think if you go back and count as if he'd have missed eight weeks, like the doctor said initially, I bet you his numbers just from there, start there. And I bet you're way better when he was actually healed. So I expect Rush to come back and look like a MVP caliber quarterback in 2022. because the talent is there.

Michael, what's he like? I mean, there's been so much written about him and, you know, a lot speculated on from, you know, outside looking in, especially when he was looking potentially to get traded last year. You know, what's he like to cover? What's he like with his teammates in the locker room, et cetera?

That feels like I haven't been in the locker room since Stoney. Well, yeah, of course. But it's an interesting dynamic because Russ is like bona fide leader and he's older. He's 33, I think. And so you get some of these guys that come in, you know, how they view Russ is a little different than how guys viewed him who were like in his draft class or like in the draft class before or just maybe right after before he became like that guy, you know, superstar, all these endorsements, superstar wife. Like the guys who grew up kind of, not grew up, but, you know, came up watching him in high school. You know, they were in high school and the Seahawks won the Super Bowl, or they were in college when the Legion of Bloom was a thing.

Like, there's a reverence for Russ. That's a little different than maybe, like, someone like Bobby Wagner, who's the same age as Russ, same draft class, who just maybe sees him as more of a peer than someone to look up to, you know, like D.K., Russ calls D.K., like his little brother, you know, and it's because Russ is, I think, like, nine years older than him or something like that. So I think that a lot of those guys, when he gets in the huddle, you know, they're seeing, and listening to him and crunch time, they're listening and seeing a guy that what they saw,

you know, throw the game in a touchdown in the NFC title game in 2014 or all the playoff games they've seen him ball out or all the prime time games that Seattle has had while they were in high school or while they were in college or they were on some other crappy team, you know, earlier in their career. So there's just guys that look up to him in that way. I can't speak to like everybody's homies and go to their kids' birthday parties or whatever. Who knows? But how does he handle that adulation? I mean, maybe that's the wrong way to describe it.

But how does he handle that? Is he down to earn? I mean, he's been, he's been after, he wants people to look at him like the best quarterback there ever was. You know, he's always, the spotlight has always been his thing. And he's always want people to look toward him, look at him, look up to him. Like, it's not an arrogant way, but just like, you know, he thinks he considers pressure to be a privilege. He considers people have high expectations of you as good, you know, embrace that and go deliver.

You know, I think he, in college, he used to walk around NC State, like passing out Russell Wilson Enterprise business cards. He didn't even have no business. You know, at the time. I've never heard that story. I'm pretty sure. He did there, NC State or Wisconsin that he had the business cards. It didn't even have a company, you know, it was weird. But that's just who he is.

His dad used to train him for press conferences, you know, when he was like six or seven years old. You know, like he's been, he always behaves as like someone's watching him. So when people are watching him, whether it's cameras or teammates or media or whatever, he's always on. He's always on. I don't know if that travels down the earth necessarily, but it's not like arrogant or cocky. He's just prepared.

You know, when you prepare him for this moment for so long, you know, it doesn't face you. It just kind of becomes your normal behavior. And then what's the relationship? relationship like between Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson? I think those two are really similar, like, in a spooky kind of way. It's like the way they don't allow themselves to think negatively. Like, they will reject a question if it's framed negatively.

They think that they're so ultra-positive in the face of adversity. They, like, are legitimately versions of, like, that gift from Game of Thrones, where John Snow like pulls out the sword and there's like an army coming at him and it's just him. Yeah. Like Pete and Russ see themselves in that situation. It's like, I'm going to cut everyone's head off. Like that's even if it's just me in this blade.

Like they, you know, Pete wrote a book in 2010 called Win Forever and, you know, Russ had his first biological son in, I think like 2019 and he named him win. You know, like they just have this addiction to winning. The ultimate optimists, you know, I don't really think anything matters to them other than than winning and being great. And I think they just bond because of that. Does that cause some friction in terms of philosophy, maybe a little bit?

You know, I think Russ would like more personnel control and free agency, maybe draft picks, whatever, trades. Where Russ like to throw the ball a little bit more, sure. But at the end of the day, they're just so results-based, you know. They click as long as they're achieving the thing that they're addicted to, which is probably why it's been a little harder on both of them in the last few years because they're just not a championship team. And that's all those guys are chasing.

So I think like any relationship, when you're not reaching the goals that you guys want to get to suffer. But at the end of the end of the end of the end of it, when they reset in the off season, they both like, all right, well, this year we're going to win, even if it sounds logical to everyone else who looks at the Rockville. John Snow's sword was pretty cool because it was made of Valerian Steel. I don't know if you knew that or not.

We're talking to Michael Sean Dugar, who covers the Seahawks for the athletic. All right. Last one. And you answered this already. But, you know, in the discussions here, it's like I keep coming back to why would Seattle bring Pete Carroll back, you know, and try to run it back and then somehow end up dealing Russell Wilson. You have, and I agree with you, you have an elite quarterback. You have one of the guys. Like, it's so hard to find one. Trust me, they've been trying to find one here for over three decades.

and to me it just it doesn't make sense that they would deal him unless he were super unhappy and kind of forced his way out and again just to reiterate you don't see that happening no here's the only scenario that I see and I mentioned

this when I talk to the homie Ben who covers Washington for the athletic just the other day the only scenario I could possibly see is that when Russ does try to you know have that conversation with Pete John Schneider and like hey all right well

We went seven and ten last year. What are we going to do to get to the Super Bowl? You know, especially if the Rams win it, you know, I think that'll be like, all right, this team in our division is there. How can we get to where they are? It'll be a really easy benchmark to identify. He could either, A, not like the plans that they map out and be like, oh, that's what we're going to do?

That stinks. Trade me to the Raiders. You know, he could. Or he could just be like, well, or they could not even tell him the plans. Like, hey, man, we got this. Worry about it. you know, we got the free agent thing, we got the draft thing, we get paid to do this, you know, we'll holl at you at OTAs.

Now, I have those scenarios, that could really piss Russell off and cause me like, look, man, if you're not going to tell me the plan, then get me out, or you tell me the plan and it stinks, then get me out, Keith. I don't know how likely those scenarios are, but I could see it. You know, quarterbacks having control over their situation has kind of become the topic lately, you know, whether it's Tom Brady getting the guys he wants in Tampa or Aaron Rogers being pissed,

they cut like third string tight ends that he loves or something like that. Yeah, I think even Joe Burrow had mentioned like that he has that personnel power or he wants it or something like that in some of his Super Bowl interviews. And Russ has said it on record that he wants that as well. So I think if there's a world where he hears the plan to get better and it's like, that's not going to get us where we need to be, go ahead and send me somewhere where I like their plan a little better, then I think he could be dealt in that scenario. Okay.

So since you brought up that scenario, and by the way, you interjected there, trade me to the Raiders. Like, is that where you think he'd want to go? Where do you think he'd, if they decided collectively we're going to deal you, where do you think he'd want to go? That's a good question. I would have, before Sean Payton's retirement, I would have said easily the same. I just think that he's drawn to these offensive-minded coaches. just wants to be in that situation. I don't think with Dennis Allen there, the allure is the same.

I think that's probably why he had the Raiders on there when John Gruden was the coach, because, you know, John Gruden for years doing that QB stuff before the draft. Quarterback just kind of viewed him as a QB whisperer coming up. So at this point, you know, I think the best options are probably, if I was him, man, that's tough. I mean, the Raiders aren't a bad option, but that division. just so damn tough, which is why I would feel weird about, you know, if I was him going to the Broncos too. Who else these quarterbacks? Tell me out here. Let me see. Let me think about

the destination. Well, I mean, in the AFC, the two teams that are most desperate right now are Denver and Pittsburgh. And I, in discussing that I would think that if they came to an agreement that they're going to deal them, that the team would want to deal them to an AFC team. And then in the NFC, the teams that are super desperate are washing. Carolina, New Orleans, and now Tampa. Washington's obviously, of all of the markets, the biggest market. It's on the East Coast. It's a 40-minute private jet right jet to New York City.

And, you know, I don't think Washington would be dismissed, as many players dismiss Washington probably from their list for a lot of reasons to begin with. he's from Richmond. So those are the teams that are desperate for quarterbacks. And we know those teams are. There might be more. I mean, you know, we don't know what will happen in Minnesota, you know, if Cousins is going to stick with O'Connell or if his $45 million cap it means he gets dealt. But those are the teams, really that, you know, I don't think I'm missing any. Okay. So that's good. That helps. So I think that you're right that the Cops would want to send into the AMC just because, yeah, who wants to deal with like a rest revenge tour if you're the

Seahawks? I would say the best thing is probably Pittsburgh. I forgot about them, yeah, because Big Ben's out of there. That's probably the best. Honestly, a sleeper one that you didn't mention, I didn't think about it. So you mentioned Pittsburgh was Cleveland. Cleveland's team is built really well. I like their front office.

I like their coach. You know, I like their approach to just team roster construction. That would be a really interesting one. That division's obviously tough as well, but, I mean, it ain't no tougher than that. NFC West, those two of the AFC are probably the most interesting, I would say. I'm just not as sold on Denver as much

just because they're a little bit of a wild card from ownership down to, you know, the head coach. That's just too many wild cards for me. On the NFC, obviously, Tampa makes the most sense. The team is just so damn good already, even if they lose a few pieces, you know, here and there, they're just really good and I think their division stinks.

Washington's an interesting one because, I mean, they have to give up some pieces in return plus the draft pick. Who would Washington throw in there as like a player, you know, that will really help that deal? Well, I mean, if you put it this way, if Seattle trades Russ, they're rebuilding, right? That's pretty fair to come to a conclusion on. They're just, they've decided to start over, which is why I keep, I can't get past that and why I've come to the conclusion that, you know, more, I'm with you.

I think Russ stays in Seattle, and I think it's a pretty good bet that Rogers probably ends up in Green Bay. But what would they need? They need picks. You know, obviously, Russell Wilson's going to get two firsts minimum, and Washington's got number 11 this year. You know, maybe, you know, another, you know, a second, a third, and maybe a player. You know, Duran Payne for Washington is an interior defensive tackle, extremely talented, a good player already, getting better. better. And, you know, they're going to have to make the decision on whether or not to pay him here shortly. And they've got John Allen and they've got, you know, Chase Young and Montez

sweat on that defensive line that they're going to have to pay. So, you know, that's the kind of player that we've talked about here that would probably be involved. But I would imagine with a team that's going to start over, it would be a lot of picks. Yeah, no, for sure. But they'd also, they did want some assets in young. players or something or guys on some friendly contracts or whatever in return to. I also think that if Seattle was ever to do move, Russ, their after three first rounds, for sure. Like that's...

What are we negotiating the deal here together? You for Seattle, me for Washington. I'll give you two firsts. I'll give you my second, and I'll throw in Duran Payne. But I'm not giving you three ones. Yeah, I think that any team that's not offering three is getting hung up on. You got to remember, look at what two first have gotten teams, right? That two first got to Laramie Tunsel.

Two first got you, Jalen Ramsey. Two first got to Jailen Ramsey. The Laramie Tunsel deal. Do you know how often we have talked about the Laramie Tunsel deal here in Washington, Michael, over the years? It's all because Trent Williams should have been traded for something approximating the Laramie Tunsel deal, but Washington refused to do it, and they ended up getting very little back from the 49ers for one of the best left tackles in football.

Anyway, look, we could go round and round. I really appreciate the time. Very informative. Take care. Hope you're well. And we'll see what happens here in the off-season. Oh, yeah. No problem.

Appreciate you. All right. That's it for the show today. Back tomorrow with Tommy and then Cooley scheduled for Friday.