The Kevin Sheehan Show - The Sharp Draft Evaluation

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Kevin opened the show with some thoughts on Washington's UDFA signing of Notre Dame QB Sam Hartman before bringing on NFL Analyst Warren Sharp. Sharp talked about his "Draft Capital Over Expectation" (DCOE) analysis and where the Commanders' 2024 class finished. Michael Lee/Washington Post jumped on to talk NBA Playoffs, Caleb Williams, and Jayden Daniels. Download the PrizePicks app today and use code Sheehan for a first deposit match up to $100! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. The Knicks up by three. Ten seconds left in game fire. Maxi fires.

He's got it. Tie game. 8.1 to play. You won for Maxine. Three seconds left. Brons it. Two seconds. Brits it at the horn.

It's blocked. He has not done yet. Tyrese Maxi. comes through in the clash. The NBA playoffs, boys, the NBA playoffs. I know some of you know what I'm talking about, but I do have a sense that the majority of you listening don't really care.

But you should if you're a sports fan. The game last night at Madison Square Garden was ridiculous. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, is Wind Donation. Call them at 86690 Nation. We're head towindonation.com. Mention my name for a free, no obligation, in home quote. We are going to talk some NBA playoffs today on the show. Now, I'm not going to do it much here in this opening segment

because Warren Sharp is going to jump on with me in just a few minutes. It's a longtime NFL analyst. Warren evaluates the draft right when it's over. He's got a way of doing it. I've referenced it in the past. Warren Sharp coming up in just a few minutes. But then my guy, Michael Lee, we've had some good debates over the years, love talking NBA basketball with Michael Lee from the Washington Post.

He'll be on the show. We'll talk some football with Michael, too. I promise you. He did a very good profile piece months ago on Caleb Williams, so I know he has followed the NFL draft and the quarterbacks, specifically, that went in the first round. so we'll get his thoughts on Jaden Daniels. Look, the game last night, in a nutshell,

was another one of these incredibly dramatic, intense games. They don't resemble regular season NBA games at all. It's a completely different sport in the postseason. Tyrese maxi, 46 points in 52 minutes, had seven in the final 28 seconds when his team was about to be eliminated at Madison Square Garden by the Nixon Five games. It was Reggie Miller-esque what he did.

Maxi is one of those emerging superstars in the game, young superstars in the game. The game went to overtime. You heard Ian Eagle's call of the Maxi 3. It was a 34-foot-3 that tied it, and then they won the game in overtime with Joel Embed playing 48 minutes with Bells Palsy, a migraine, and a hurt knee. He wasn't great in the game, but he was great in overtime, actually. He made a couple of big plays, including the block shot at the end of regulation. But man, a warrior last night to be out there for 48 minutes with all that he has been suffering through.

But yeah, the NBA playoffs have been great so far. I will be up late tonight watching Mavericks Clippers. Why don't some of you join me? In fact, let me suggest a place you can watch NBA playoff basketball. How about Shelly's back room? Tommy's Place, 1331 F Street. Northwest, great bar, great menu, great cigars, great friends. All you have to do is say, you know, Tommy, and they'll take really good care of you.

And remember, Monday night, this coming Monday night, 6 to 8 o'clock p.m. at Shelley's Backroom 1331F Street, Northwest, Tommy's Cigars and Curve Balls auction event. Join us for an evening of Cigars, baseball, and support for the D.C. Grays, nonprofit organization whose mission is to provide opportunities for college baseball players to develop their skills and give inner city youth a chance to learn the great game of baseball. This is an incredible night. It is many years now running. There will be people, real people that you recognize there.

Doc Walker will be there. Mike Rizzo Davy Martinez is expected to stop by. Tommy is in rare form on this night as the host of his event. It's a great event. Shelly's back room Monday night, May 6th, 6 to 8 p.m. Be there. I'll be there as well. For tickets, go to DCGraise.com to purchase.

You can also purchase tickets at the door if you decide last minute you want to head down there. But Shelley's back room is the best, and we appreciate always. support. So before I get to Warren Sharp, I wanted to read this quick note. It came from Kevin. Kevin said, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Sam Hartman being signed for a major guaranteed contract for an undrafted free agent. What do you think it means? So I think we talked a little bit about some of the undrafted free agents, but that's fair. I didn't spend a lot of time on Sam Hartman. And Kevin, you're right. Washington gave Hartman one of the biggest guarantees among undrafted free agents. $20,000 signing bonus, $225,000 guaranteed base salary.

And this is, to me, an indication that Sam Hartman has a really good chance to be the third quarterback on the roster in 2024. They have Jaden Daniels. They have Marcus Marietta, as you know. Jeff Driscoll and Jake Fromm also on the roster. It would not surprise me if one of those two is released before training camp. I don't know that you're going to have five quarterbacks brought into camp, and they're about 92 or 93 players on the roster right now. You can only go to camp with 90.

So there will be players that will be cut loose a couple of them, and I would expect one of them to be Fromm or Driscoll. But Sam Hartman's an interesting quarterback. For those of you who don't know much about Sam Hartman's career, Sam Hartman was in college football. It just seemed like forever. First of all, Sam Hartman didn't get drafted. People thought he had a chance to get drafted on day three.

You know, we didn't talk about this. After the six quarterbacks got taken in the first 12 picks, Williams, Daniels, May, Pennix, Jr., McCarthy, and Knicks, there wasn't another quarterback taken until the fifth round on Saturday. was Spencer Rattler picked by the Saints as the 15th pick in the fifth round. So basically four rounds went by after Bo Nix became the record-setting sixth quarterback taken in 12 slots last Thursday night. Spencer Rattler, there was a lot that was discussed about Spencer Rattler at Oklahoma and some of the issues he had as a teammate. But there was a lot written about that.

And a lot written or updated that he had become a much more mature player at South Carolina. And a lot of people thought he had a chance to go even before Bo Nix, not in the first round, but perhaps sometime in the second round. But he didn't go until the fifth round. Jordan Travis, who broke his leg for Florida State or they would have been in the playoff, he got selected in the fifth round by the Jets. Joe Milton, the big-armed quarterback from Tennessee, who was at Michigan, ended up with New England in the sixth round. Devin Leary from Kentucky went to Baltimore in the sixth round.

And then Michael Pratt, the Tulane quarterback, was a seventh round selection by the Packers. Michael Pratt was one of those quarterbacks. I actually, on the day three quarterback conversation, whenever we had it, I gave you Keaton Slovis, the quarterback from BYU, who was with Pitt. And prior to that, with USC. I actually thought he would get drafted on day three. And there's just something about him that I thought made sense. for a team to look at.

He was signed as an undrafted free agent by the Colts. Pratt, I remember saying, I don't get the people that think that he is a night two pick. There were some discussions about Pratt. I forget exactly where he was projected. He was definitely projected earlier than the seventh round. But anyway, back to Sam Hartman. So he wasn't drafted. Sam Hartman had a six-year college college.

career. COVID, obviously, in 2020. But he ended up playing his sixth and final year at Notre Dame. Last year, he went into the portal. I remember a lot of Sam Hartman's games at Wake Forest, man. They were a prolific offensive team with him at quarterback. He was dual threat. He was RPO. A lot of that slow mesh read option, if you know what I'm talking about, the teams that ride out the fake handoff part of the zone read for what seems like forever. And Sam Hartman was so good at running that slow mesh read option. I mean, that ball was held in that running back's gut forever. And he'd pull it and either run it, pull it, leave it there or pull it and throw it.

He threw for 39 touchdowns and ran for 11 in 2021. in a season in which Wake went 11 and 3. They lost the ACC title game to Pitt and Kenny Pickett, by the way. But he had some massive games that year. They played a game against Wake Forest that year. He was the quarterback for Wake Forest. They played a game against, I'm sorry, Army that year. And Wake Forest won that game, 70 to 56.

That was the final score. Wake team was terrible defensively. In that game, he threw for 4.58 and five touchdowns. He had a game that year where he played against Sam Howell and North Carolina in a shootout. 58 to 55 was the final score. Hartman threw for 398, five touchdowns, ran for 78 yards and two touchdowns, right? He accounted for nearly 500 yards of offense. That's not Jaden Daniels's but it's up there. And seven touchdowns in that game. I looked this up.

Sam Howell, he played on a team that had terrible defense in 2021. And by the way, Drake May didn't have a much better defense when he was at Carolina, but it was a little bit better. Last year anyway. But Sam Hal in that game, 216 yards and a touchdown, but he rushed for 104 yards and two touchdowns. I watched a lot of the Notre Dame games this year. Murray would be one of those guys that would really be able to give you sort of expertise on Sam Hartman

at Notre Dame. I do remember he was not very good in that classic Saturday night game in September that they lost on the walkoff touchdown by Ohio State. 1714 was the final score. He struggled in that game. They could not generate any offense against Ohio State. He also struggled big time against Clemson later in the year. He had a couple of very good games, though, at Notre Dame. And, you know, in that game head up against Caleb Williams, they didn't have to do much because SC could not stop the run. But he threw for two touchdowns in that 48 to 20 route of SC. That was the night Caleb Williams was really off through a bunch of picks in South Bend.

But I think Sam Hartman is a guy that can be a really good ball handling, dual threat, smart, get it out quickly, I think. I don't know. I'm thinking about just watching them at Notre Dame this year. I'm looking up the sack totals. There were a couple of games where it just seemed like he just constantly held on to it too long. He was only sacked 14 times. Yeah, I'm wrong on that.

He was sacked five times against Louisville. I remember that game. He struggled mightily that night against Louisville. Took four sacks against a pretty good defensive team in NC. That was the game early in the year that literally got stopped because of thunderstorms. And when they resumed, there was like nobody in the crowd in Raleigh and Notre Dame just rolled it up on them with no crowd there. He actually had four touchdown passes in that game. He was 24 TD's eight interceptions at Notre Dame.

It's funny, though. I just remember that wake offense was just unstoppable. But it also goes to show you, like the schedule Wake played compared to Notre Dame. the ACC portion the same. You had some good defenses in the ACC, but you had some bad defenses. That 2021 season where they actually went to the ACC title game, 58, 55, 75, 76, 40 to 37, 45, 42. I mean, every wake game was that way, but man, they were a great offensive football team.

just with a lot of the, you know, read option, slow mesh read option is part of the attack, a lot of RPO. I think he's going to be the third quarterback. I mean, they gave him that money because they see him as QB3. And by the way, if they see him as QB3 now, they probably see him as QB2 starting in 2025, where he's got a chance to be QB2 in 2025. If you have a moment and you haven't rated or reviewed the show and you want to take 30 to 60 seconds to do so, it would be much appreciated. Apple and Spotify allow you to give us up to five stars if you think we deserve it.

Apple gives you a chance to write a quick one to two sentence review. It's really helpful for us. Advertisers look for audience size, which is something we do very well with, but they also look for how much the audience. likes the show and the ratings and reviews really reflect that. So if you haven't done it, you have a chance to do it, I thank you for that. Subscribing to the podcast is a big help and following us on Apple and Spotify. Just hit the plus button if it's still there, if you haven't followed us on the home screen of our podcast on Apple and Spotify. And that would be much appreciated as well. All right, let's talk some football and bring on

Warren Sharp, as promised. Warren, a long-time football analyst. You can follow him on Twitter, on X at Sharp Football. We'll talk some draft here. We will talk maybe at the end of the conversation about some of the work you've done already in looking ahead to the 2024 NFL schedule strength. The way you do it, I think, makes the most sense. But I want to start with the draft, something that I think, you know, all of us love. We debate it. We discuss it. And after the fact, a lot of people want to declare something about it. And the truth is, we all know as football fans, that the people that get paid to do this with teams get patted on the back, three years down the road, if they hit on 35 to 40 percent of the picks in a specific draft. But I know you do a lot of work in analyzing drafts, and I want to start with that.

is there a fair way to evaluate a draft in the moment right after it's happened? Well, it's a tricky question, obviously, because everybody has their own opinions, and most people believe that their opinions are correct. And so it makes it a challenge because you have the school of thought that, you know, I'm talking from a media perspective, not from a team perspective, but from a public-facing perspective, let's say. many people believe that it's difficult to grade a draft, to rank a draft, because you really have to wait and see how these players end up developing.

There's a smaller school of thought that believes that you should be able to analyze decisions that are made today with some level of clarity as to whether this was a good decision or a poor decision, and thus you should be able to analyze the NFL draft. One of the ways that I like to measure it is I like to go of some of the experts with actually studying the tape, studying the film, have a better knowledge of these players than most of the people that are kind of publicly just talking about it. So that's like go to the experts, so to speak. And then the other way that I like to look at it is biometric that is call draft capital over expectation and basically employs a wisdom of crowd's approach to

studying the draft. And the logic behind this wisdom of crowd's approach and Arifasana, who writes for wide lust.com, I think it is, does a big board, consensus big board. And what that means is he's going through and analyzing over 100 different boards where they're ranking the top 250 athletes, players, prospects for this draft class. And, you know, obviously one or two of them could be way off than the others, but when you're going through 101 of these, you're going to come up with a general consensus as two. This is where we feel prospects are plotted or ranked in terms of where they should be drafted.

Now, you might reach for a need. You might reach for a variety of other things. But in general, these are where these players are done. drafted. And so that's heading into the draft. You can get an understanding as to where all of these players are being slotted. And then you see where they actually were taken. And you can measure the delta between the two to determine if a guy was potentially by a singular team drafted too early and thus making him maybe a reach. Or he was drafted later than what the consensus was. And that might make him a steal. And generally speaking, we in the analytics community tend to believe that

reaches are more of a thing than steel are. In other words, you know, reaches are more accurate in terms of, okay, this was probably wrong. Whereas a steal, so think about a reach. A reach means, like, let's pretend a player was supposed to go at pick number 50. And a team drafts them at pick number 20. Well, that was technically well before he should have been drafted based upon the general consensus. And that team who drafted it might be right or they might be wrong. Nobody else had, no other team had the opportunity and decided to draft that player. So it's only on the one team that decided to. They're either right or they're wrong. Whereas if a player slides, let's pretend the opposite occurred and he was supposed to go number 20, but he's not

not taken until number 50. Well, many, many teams had the opportunity to take this guy. He fell five spots, ten spots, fell ten spots, fell 15 spots, fell 20 spots, and none of the teams are taking him. All of these teams have decided they do not want to draft this player with their pick, and then one team ends up taking him. So all these guys passed on him, so it's more likely that a player that fell is accurate than a player that was a steal is accurate.

But that's kind of the way that I like to approach it, is from a two-pronged approach. How does it compare to the consensus and then target some select guys that I believe are well qualified to give me feedback? And I listened to them. Yeah, and I referenced your, you know, DCOA, DCOE yesterday. And, you know, what you're talking about here is a way to evaluate in the moment how a team did relative to kind of a consensus big board. I am curious, you know, we're a long, long ways away from the days in which Kuiper would scream, that's a reach based on my board, or that's a steel based on my board.

This would have been much more difficult to do years ago because we didn't have this cottage industry. It's not even a cottage industry anymore, but we didn't have all of these mock drafts out there. I did want to ask you in terms of like the consensus, Big Board. You talked about this guy. I think his name's a reef. I think I've had him on the show before.

Like where are, where is this big board specifically coming from? Like which mock drafters? It's not coming from a consensus from teams, obviously. They're not going to disclose that information. No, that's correct. So what he does is he goes through 101. board, and he actually ranked them out whether they were, well, the actual information here. He calls them evaluators and then forecasters. The forecasters are a group of draft analysts.

This is per his website at wide-left.com football. The forecasters are a group of draft analysts with access to some team information and source data on prospects. The evaluators are analysts that primarily rely on publicly available data such as combined results and tape. So, you know, when I look at, you know, we can bet on the draft now. So when I'm looking at trying to grade out different mock drafts, I, to find out which ones are going to be the most accurate. And there's a difference between a big board, which does it. really slot the players to the team. They're just ranking the prospects, and they go well beyond the first round. They're, you know, up to 300, whereas a mock draft that I'm looking at when I'm trying

to pick, which over under the specific player, you know, like J.G. McCarthy under five and a half draft plot, I'm going to be focusing more on mock draft to do that. So he's got the forecasters that have access to information, some team information and some source data. And then he's got the evaluators that are looking at the publicly available data. You can go and track the most accurate big boards. Some websites do keep track of that. You can go track the most accurate mock drafts, and some websites keep track of that. You can target the individuals. You can see their names and how accurate their scores are. I'm not sure if Hassan went through and tried to do that as he's pulling these 101 consensus big boards or these big boards to determine his consensus,

or not. I'm not sure where he's sourcing that specifically, but I do know he categorizes them into different groups. And I'll tell you this, Kevin, I did go and look at what my results would have been for the DCOE. If I just looked at what I'm guessing is probably closer to team evaluators, and that's the group he calls the forecasters, which has access to certain team information. and the difference doesn't really change all that much. In addition, I looked at me personally, I wanted to see, it's not so bad if you're reaching on a guy in the sixth round, right? Because there's a better chance for a lesser-known prospect

or a lesser-talented prospect, potentially, that you personally might have a different opinion on this player than some of the rest of the NFL. And so I don't really care as much as that. So I looked at, you know, what about this the first three rounds? how does DCOE look for the first three rounds? And there are some teams that moved up a little bit, but for the most part, many of the teams stayed pretty similar based on DCOE. As it relates to DCOE, draft capital over expectation, your way of analyzing, you know, a draft class,

and we'll get to the commander stuff here where they ranked in a few minutes. But you wrote something that I thought was interesting, and you essentially implied that on occasion it's okay to reach. Like if you have a unique offensive system and there's a certain player that fits that system, that it's okay to actually reach and maybe take a player spots ahead of where they are projected to go. Maybe I just explained it, but I'll just ask you to add to it.

In order to make sure they get these players, they do have to draft them before the average, because by the time you get to the average consensus, it's fair game for everybody, and you might not be picking there. So you have to take them where your pick is, and so it does make sense. I guess it's defensible slash arguable that you may need to reach on certain players if you're trying to deploy a new system, guys that'll fit your system a little bit better.

You may need to reach on those. Warren Sharp joining us right now, and I think most of you understand how Warren evaluates a draft. Warren essentially evaluates the draft based on where these players are taken by teams and where these players were supposed to be drafted. If you draft a player after the player was supposed to be drafted, that's a valuable pick. If you draft a player before that player was supposed to be drafted, that's a reach. And again, we'll get to how the commanders did here in a moment. But what's interesting to me is how does that play?

out three years down the road when you actually can evaluate a draft class and find out whether not the players turned out to be good players and contributors or not? That's an outstanding question. I honestly have not been looking at the consensus big board long enough to be able to judge that because I started looking at this just a few years ago myself. And so it's a valid question. The interesting part about the draft is that So many of these coaches and GMs that end up making the picks or are doing the evaluation to make the picks aren't there three, four years from the time that they're making them. But you're right. Eventually, we should be able to go back and look at the players and judge them based upon the big boards.

I did see a tweet by Austin Gale a couple of days ago where he listed out, here were the biggest reaches by draft class based on Hassan's big board. And he went through last maybe four or five years. And as you're looking down that list, he only listed like the top two, I think, top two or three. Pretty much all the guys that were reaches ended up bombing in the NFL. They were not good players in the NFL, which is why a reach is almost always a reach. whereas a steel is rarely a steel. Exceptions to every rule, and those were the biggest of the biggest.

Washington doesn't have any of the biggest from their draft class. All right. So as it relates to the 2024 NFL draft class, where did Washington come in in terms of, you know, for the lack of a better description, how sharp they were drafting players where they were supposed to be drafted? Well, the good news for Washington, the easiest to eval is Jaden Daniels, right? He was expected to go. He went number two. He's not, he wasn't over or underdrafted.

He was drafted exactly where he was expected to go. The other good news obviously had those three second round picks, and two of those three second round picks were fields, were highly valuable players, were players that they drafted later than what. what the board was expecting them to be drafted. So if you look at Newton, your defensive tackle, he was expected to be drafted at pick number 26. He went at pick number 36. Now, in each of these categories,

as you get higher up to the number one pick, that draft capital is more valuable. Sure. And so even though a guy was off by only 10 spots here, that draft capital of those 10 spots is far more valuable than let's say the difference between, the 100th and the 110th pick. But he was the best value that you guys had of the entire draft class.

St. St. Strill, the cornerback out of Michigan, he was expected to go pick number 45 until pick 50. That also was a little bit of a value for you guys. On the below value side, I listed out already on the offensive side of the ball. Your tight ends in it. Luke McCaffrey and Coleman, your tackle. Those were three of your four worst picks based upon draft capital over expectation. The numbers just to spit them off here. Tonight was supposed to go at 83, and you guys picked him at 53 overall. McCaffrey was supposed to go at 146.

You guys picked him at 100 overall, and Coleman was supposed to go at pick 114, and you guys took him at pick 16. Now, again, supposed to go. That's just based upon the average consensus does not mean that there's some sort of precise indicator. It's just that the average consensus. But those guys were all overdrafted. And then the other guy that sort of stands out that falls in the middle of them is your linebacker in the fifth round. McGee, he was supposed to go 174 and you took him at 136. So when you look at the overall ranking, I'm sure you shared this with the listeners already.

but you guys finish what 25th. But the good news, in my opinion, is that if you look at your top picks, your most valuable picks, you're getting three of the four at or better value than what was expected. And so by those standards, you know, if those guys are going to be the most impactful guys because they were drafted highest and will get the most playing time, then you guys got better value for those picks. So that's a real positive. whereas, you know, guys in the fifth round or so, taking those guys earlier than expected may just be the fact that you're trying to fit in a new offense and install something and you're going after, quote, unquote, your guys, as opposed to who's the best player at this spot who gives us the best value based upon where everybody else thought he should be drafted.

Washington finished 25th. I had not shared it with my audience yet. I had referenced the way you. you kind of evaluated draft. Washington 25th out of 32 teams in Warren Sharpe's draft capital over-expectation evaluation of the draft in the moment. The best was Detroit the worst, and I think I could have guessed this, because of Pennix Jr., even though I was a big fan of Pennix Jr., and I thought there was a chance that he would get picked in the top half of the first round. But Pennix Jr. going eighth made Atlanta's draft the worst based on this criteria. And I'm assuming that it was Pennix that drove that, right? Actually, the interesting element here was it was not Pennix that drove it.

Pennix was expected to go based upon the way that the final, final mocks were falling out. He was still expected to go right around pick number 23. Okay. And so going at eight was a definite reach for sure. but the sad part about the Falcons and who knows maybe they'll be right and we're wrong. That's the interesting part about this why I like using it, the wisdom

of crowd approach is that the odds though that the Atlanta Falcons were right on all of these guys and all 31 teams plus the consensus big board were wrong are very slim. You have to be very lucky if you're the Atlanta Falcons to be right on all

of these picks and so they had actually Kevin five picks that had worse draft capital over expectation than the Pennix pick. Five of them that were worse. Their defensive tackle they took in the second round, Aurora Ho, he was worse. Then they got a bunch of fifth and sixth round guys, Jason McLaughlin. All the guys they drafted after the fourth round were substantial reaches to a degree that was worse than the score for Pennix Jr. Well, the detackle they took from Clemson was the pick before Washington got great value with their pick of Newton at the same position.

Exactly. One pick later. Before I let you run, one of the things that I've enjoyed over the years is how you look ahead to the schedule. We know the opponents. We don't know the actual schedule. We'll know that in a couple of weeks. and you develop based on projected win totals strength of schedule the right way, which looking back at last year is the wrong way because the league changes so much year to years.

So using the over-under numbers, I think you did this recently. If you can remember, where was Washington strength the schedule among 32 teams? Yes, so you guys have the 13th easiest schedule in the NFL out of those 32 teams. That's the positive. So you're on the positive side of having an easier-than-average schedule. The negative is that you had the 12th easiest schedule last year. And, of course, we only won four games. We know what happened at the end of the year ultimately allowed you yet Janiel's in the past history.

And so let's look forward to the future. but that's currently where you guys rank. And I guess the other positive is if you're looking at teams like the Giants who you'll be competing with or the Cowboys who you'll be competing with, you have an easier schedule than both of those teams. Ironically, the Philadelphia Eagles have a slightly easier schedule than you do. So they have the easiest of any of the teams in the NFC East. But your schedule is easier by my metrics than the Giants than the Cowboys, and you rank 13th overall.

Always fun to catch up. Thanks for making time for me today, Warren. I appreciate it. Thank you very much, Kevin. Warren Sharp, everybody. All right, let's switch gears. Michael Lee, long time reporter for the Washington Post. We'll talk some basketball. I will also ask Michael about Caleb Williams and the quarterbacks in the draft because he did a very impressive profile of Caleb Williams back in the early portion. of football season. We'll get to that and a lot more right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, guys, now with the NFL draft behind us, it's time to focus on springtime games, like real games, playoff games. For me, it's the NBA playoffs. And if you're a daily fantasy sports player, I've got the app for you. Prize Picks is the app that's easy and exciting

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McBride. And that's it. The Sixers, stay alive. The Knicks could not shut the door. Spectacular playoff game last night at Madison Square Garden. Yes, we're going to do some basket. football talk right now. Michael Lee will join me in a moment. This upcoming segment is sponsored by Window Nation. Wind Donation's got their semi-annual sale going on right now, and it's a big deal.

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All right. Michael Lee, longtime Washington Post reporter has covered the NBA. He's covered a lot of different things for the post. You can follow Michael on X, on Twitter, at Mr. Michael Lee. I always enjoy basketball conversations with Michael and I thought of you today after the game last night because we had back-to-back great games. Let's start with what happened in the garden last night, Philadelphia coming from behind, winning in overtime, staying alive, down 3-2 in a great series.

Do you think the Sixers can pull off a 3-1 comeback and come back and win this series, something that Joelle Embed predicted when they went down 2-0? I don't know if they'll have enough gas. I worry about Joel Embed, stamina, and his ability to play with one-day rest after playing 48 minutes. It'll be tough to see him come back.

Maybe being home or give him the juice to step up and have a typical Mb-B type performance. But he was really fading in the fourth quarter of that game. I mean, he was with a ball all over the plays. He wasn't really engaged. And Tari's maxi did everything in his power to save him. Like he saved, he didn't just save the sixth season. He saved Joel M.B.

Because that would have been like, oh, this guy can't deliver close out games. Oh, look at him. He's got a shooting percentage. He shot so poorly, and he all his turnovers. But Tyree saved the day with just one of the most incredible performances that anybody that young has ever had. I mean, to come to be 23 years old, to still be on your rookie deal, and to have that kind of performance in the Garden in Massa Square, like, and it's completely upset all the stars and celebrities and all those Knicks fans and just crushed his spirits, it was phenomenal. And the thing that I loved about it the most is It really showed how tough mentally Tyrese is because the last time he was in that building in game two, he got foul and lost the ball.

They didn't call a foul, but he did lose the ball, and then they gave up that three on another incredible shot. But Dr. Davis-Sinzo, and so you had this epic game two, and he goes around and flips it on the Knicks and gives him his Reggie Miller performance. As they choke away a game. So it was just, it's been an entertaining series. I don't know if Philly has enough to match up with the Knicks. But them at home, I mean, once you give a team life, that's the thing with the playoffs. You give a team life, you put yourself at risk. And you don't really want to play with your food in the playoffs because it comes out to bite you typically.

Yeah, I mean, the ending of that game, him scoring seven points in the last 28 seconds, It wasn't exactly Reggie Miller, but it was Reggie Miller-esque. But in talking about Embed, and I mentioned this in the open to the podcast today, I mean, Joel Embed has a knee injury. He has Bell's palsy, which he's been diagnosed with, and he had a severe migraine yesterday, and he was out there for 48 minutes. The one thing that I really appreciated last night was him being out there and competing for 48 minutes, whereas the night before Anthony Davis was basically breathed on,

and the Lakers were playing four on five the rest of the way. Well, yeah, but Anthony Davis has had a little more success in the playoffs than NB. Yeah. He does have a ring. I know. I will give them a bad. They also are playing a much better opponent than any body that Embeddy is really faced in the playoffs. But you get my point on Anthony Davis and on NBee.

Anthony Davis, yeah, I mean, what happened the other night was typically Anthony Davis. I feel like Anthony, I feel like Anthony, I feel like Anthony Davis gets a bad rat. Honestly, I think he's the reason why the Lakers went to the Western Conference last, West Conference finals last year. I thought it was phenomenal. I thought it was phenomenal this year playing 76 games with no one talked about. And, you know, getting a shot in the elbow, I mean, in the shoulder the way he did. I don't know that.

That's like that would have hurt. I mean, I don't know if it would. And he stayed out on the court. And he left the court and went to the back to cry. Like, he out there, he competed the best he could until his shoulder, you know, he'll, and he was still getting rebounds and he was still contesting shots. I mean, I don't know. I'm just, I feel like AD gets a bad rap.

I think that he does a lot more for the Lakers than score. And, you know, he didn't have the best series, but he also wasn't on the best team. As for Embed, he's just been hit with the bad luck stick. Every postseason, something happens. Every single postseason from the minute he reached the playoffs. I remember the first year, he had a facial front. fracture, and he came out and couldn't play, like, the first couple games, and he came in a home game wearing, like, a family of opera match, you know, to ring the bell to get

everybody fired up. And so he's always, every postseason is something that happened. Last year it was a knee. It was a knee injury that he's coming back from, that slowed him down. And so it's like every year, like, you just wonder how in the world can he play a full season and then all of a sudden get to April? And then all of a, every bad thing he happened to plague. I mean, when they had their best shot, I won the championship of 2019 against Toronto,

you know, he had like a stomach virus that made them, you know, that just crept up on him at the wrong time. Like, there's always something with him. And so I think that's why, like, Stichers fans are really excited now because of what Tyrese maxi did, because they realize that they can win in spite of Embed having a bad game. But the one thing about Embedith is he has to be on the floor. Like, he has to be on the floor. Their plus-minus numbers when he's on the floor are, like, off the charts. Like, when he's on the floor, they are a great team no matter what.

Even if he's just lumbering all over the place and not being efficient, just his presence just makes them, you know, a legitimate threat. And so, but Tyrese Maxie just stepped up as a true superstar did and just told him, you know, I got you, just to let him know that, you might not be the best. And that's all the sixers have needed for the whole time they've been, they've had him beating the postseason. For somebody just tell Joanne B, hey, I got you and hope that maybe one day he'll return that favor. Maybe it'll be game six. But we'll see.

Look, on Anthony Davis, we'll just agree to disagree. I agree with you because he's a great player. I mean, he's a first ballot hall of famer. He's one of the best ever do it. And I've enjoyed watching him play when he's been healthy. there have been moments over the years. I'm like, I just wish he were available more. But there's just been, there have been too many moments where, you know, he's wincing and grimacing and rolling around. I mean, I thought, if it weren't him, I would have thought somebody had been

seriously injured the other night. But once it was him, given what we've watched from over the years, I just knew, oh, God, they're in trouble. And I actually just wanted to see that series extended. And the Knicks 76ers game was great and we'll see what happens in game six. I just thought Embed was a true warrior last night, given everything that he's dealing with to be out there for 48 minutes. You wrote a story and it's actually kind of a perfect segue talking about the Lakers. We didn't talk about LeBron specifically. And then Tyrese Maxey last night. You wrote a story a couple of months ago. Long live the NBA's three kings. The league's

brightest stars for more than a decade, James Durant and Steph Curry shine on. And in that moment, that was happening. All three of them are out. This is the first postseason, I think, since 2005. That would have been the year, right, that LeBron went and lost to the Pistons after he had that phenomenal game six in the Eastern Conference finals. I think that was the year. And it's the first time we've gotten to the second round without one of the three. My question to you is... Not to say in the league. I think we should prefer...

Every step in the league in 2009-10 season, at least one of them than beyond the second round. Right. Or maybe it's the second one. Yeah, so if you start it in 2009 when all three of them are in the league, first time that we haven't seen at least one of them in the second round. So my question to you would be, did we see one of the next three or four?

or five big stars have his first massive moment last night in Maxi? Maybe. I mean, I think we've got to just see how it all plays out beyond the first round. I think the reason why we appreciate LeBron, Steph, and Katie is that over the last, you know, 15 years or so is that they have been relevant because they've been on that championship stage. They've won rings. They've had great performances in meaningful games and memorable games that stay with us.

The first round, as entertaining as it can be, is just the first round. And unless you can do it in the conference finals or the NBA finals, that's when you establish your reputation. But I think there have been stars who've been emerging throughout this postseason, and it's been something I've been begging for for a long time, you know. I've been waiting for the young guys for this new generation to say it's our league. You know, they've allowed, you know, LeBron and Steph to kind of hold a hold, hang on a lot longer than they probably should have, you know.

But it says a lot about the passion and the love they have for the game that's still relevant, but I think that it's time for guys like Anthony Edwards to say, hey, man, it's my time now. Like, I'm taking it, and I'm talking smack to your face, and I'm dunking on you, and I'm snatching chains, and I'm doing everything else because it's my turn, you know. It's a, you know, a guy like Tyre's Halliburton, you know, doing this thing in Indiana. It's a guy, like, like said, Tyrese Maxie and Philly, you know, Jim Brunson with the Knicks, you know, all these young guys that are sort of their moment.

Oh, yes, of course, yeah, it's their turn. I mean, you know, Yolke's is, you know, he's 29. He's still, he's in that middle age of the NBA stars. But it's time for these young guys that really start taking a hole because, you know, if they don't take a cold, when will they? So this is the moment. And so I'm just pleased to see that, you know, as much as I'm disappointed at Durant's no longer there, Steph's not, didn't even make it to the playoffs, and LeBron's gone.

But, you know, I think it's just time. I think it's good for the league to always turn the page to something fresh and something new and something to get excited about because we don't want to keep telling the same story over and over again. We want to get new blood in here. And so I get something to get excited about. And I just love what I'm seeing right now. I wish that we could just get Zion and Jod to be healthy so that they could be a part of this too

because of those are the two names we keep waiting on but they always get, they're either hurting the playoffs or this year, John just wasn't even around. But I just want to see the new guys kind of take over the league and just give it a new energy because, you know, it's a young man's game and it should play out that way. Yeah, I don't, I'm with you. I just, I love Anthony Edwards.

I love Shea Gilgis Alexander. I mean, there are so many of these young players. But this league's always at this time of year, the experience has won out. It's one of the reasons I'm looking so forward to seeing Minnesota and Denver in this next series. And actually, I mean, I wish the Clippers were healthy because I would have loved to have seen Oklahoma City play a healthy Clippers team. I don't know how that series will play out with Game 5 tonight. But I wonder what you think of the idea or the thought that LeBron James just isn't done yet. And I say that because, and I talked about this yesterday after they went out in Game 5.

And I just thought that LeBron James was playing at a level. He's a better shooter than I think he's ever been in his career. He was, you know, he shot better from behind the arc. Three, high from three. Yeah, than he's ever shot it before. Just the stroke in general is more consistent. He looks to me bigger, stronger, and at least as athletic as he's ever been. Maybe not Durant, maybe not Steph.

I don't know about those two. But what could the Lakers do for LeBron and AD in terms of an addition to make them a legitimate deep into, you know, May and June team next year, because it doesn't seem like they're that far off. I think they're further off than you think. Okay. And mainly because they're still relying on a 39-year-old guy to carry them and to be the primary force. That can't be the case if they're going to win a championship. And I don't know how necessarily LeBron can defer more, but either AD has to be the guy,

or they have to get a younger guy who can carry them. I say this all the time, and whenever anybody brings it up, like, why are the old guys losing? Because Father Thomas undefeated, right? But he can give you a pass or help you extend it if you have a young guy on your roster who can boost your championship aspirations. You know, if you'd look at Officer Robertson, you know, he won when he got with Kareem, right? Kareem, you know, languished for years with the Lakers. Then he got magic.

Then you had Shaq. You know, he got D. Wade. That helped extend his career. You had Tim Duncan. He got Kawhi Leonard. They helped extend his career. He was able to win a championship late in his career. LeBron was able to win a championship. His last one with AD, when AD stepped up and was a star. And I know it doesn't get said a lot.

But Steph, when he won his last ring, that was Andrew Wiggins' best performance as a professional basketball player. He played as a true elite all-star caliber player during that finals run. So you can just go down in history. You always find it, but unless they can find a young guy

who is really able to elevate their ceiling and their floor, they're going to continue to be a team that no one can take seriously because the West is only going to get better. They're going to get older. These other teams are going to get better because they're younger and they're still approaching their prime

they're not already in it. And so that's what the Lakers, if they can do anything, they'd have to get a young star, I don't know where they find it, how they find it, or who's willing to sacrifice a star, who can actually elevate their floor and their ceiling. Because if LeBron has to be the guy to carry them, he can't do it because he's 39 years old. And that's just, that's just unfair to ask them. And, like, you could look at last year's run, say, well, they made the Western Conference finals just a year ago, so why can't they just do it again?

That was a fluky run. Let's just be honest. That run was not legit. I mean, in terms of, like, them being a true. Those games against Denver in the Western Conference finals, I know they got swept, but every single game was competitive. They weren't. They weren't good enough, though.

No, they weren't. That's true. That's what I'm asking, though, because it wasn't LeBron. But it's fool's gold. If you look at that and say, well, they were this close, no, they weren't. They lost. They weren't this close. They lost.

and they went ahead and just brought back those same pieces, and those same pieces, they were a playing team. What I'm suggesting, though, is... A.D. and a healthy LeBron. Yeah, I agree with the whole season. They both played 70 games, and they were at 70 seats. I agree with you that they can't win it without adding something else, and that's what I'm asking you. Is there somebody out there that they could add?

I don't know. I don't know who that player is. I mean, a lot of people say, like, a Trey Young, whatever, maybe you could get him, I don't know if he really elevates their floor that much because he can't defend. You know, they need somebody who can play both both ends of the floor. And they need somebody who can help defend. They probably need a three who can, or three, who can play the four and kind of take the pressure off LeBron defensively because as much as he's a great player

at this age and his stage in his career, he is a bit of a liability on a defensive end. And if you look at the game that they lost, he wasn't able to make the plays that you would expect him to make down the stretch because he is older, and we shouldn't expect him to do that. You know, if you look at the, you know, just the whole series, I mean, there were moments when you thought, oh, the LeBron's going to take over, and he had some great moments in the fourth, but he never closed it, you know?

And so I think that's not good for a franchise to say that, oh, a guy, this old is going to have to be the one to close the deal. You've got to find somebody who can do that. And it's tough to ask a big man to do it unless it's somebody like a Yokic who can beat you with something. any different ways. AD is a great score at times, but not he's a great facilitator, playmaker

or anything like that that, that Yogich does, because that's what makes him so great, is that, you know, you can say, we're going to double him and get the ball out of his hands, he's like, great. That means I can find Michael Porter Jr. wide open, or I can get, Jamal, just get him off and not, you know, I don't have to do anything. Or are you going to say, oh, you're going to go one-on-one

with me? Okay, I'll just bust two errors in front of me. So it's just a unique, pleases of unique player, but that's for the Lakers. I just don't know what they can do. As long as they're going to continue to build with LeBron being their front line guy, they're going to continue to have, you know, they're not going to be a championship contender. And it's not a knock on the bond. Is there a place where LeBron can go and be a championship contender?

There are a couple places they could go. I mean, he could go to New York. He can go to Philly. He can go to a couple places where there's enough of a strong. force there that can elevate him and he doesn't have to be the guy that has to deliver in those stretches. Like if he plays with an MB and the maxi, oh man, and he's facilitating and making plays for them, yeah, that's the team that could do something. If he's, you know, out there with the Knicks and he's just, you know, kind of a versatile, you know, forward for them and doing, you know,

some of the things that they like to do and playing for Tiz and they got the defensive pieces around him to cover for him, then yeah, that could help him. But I don't know. But I don't know if he wants to leave L.A. either. Because, you know, at the end of the post press conference the other day, he said, you know, everything's about my family and my son. If he's going to play in the NBA, and he's got his kids in school, you know, if he's really that big into his family, and that's what matters to him, then why would he leave L.A. Is his son an NBA player? Who?

Bronny? Yeah. Um, he is if, uh, no, no, I'm talking if he, if he, if LeBron weren't his father. I don't, I don't know, I don't know if he's ready, honestly. And it's not because I don't, I don't think he's any good. I just don't know. He came off a heart, you know, element, you know, which is scary, you know, and like, I don't think that can be overlooked, you know, for somebody that young to have that kind of a health scare, I think that, you know, it should be about him now just getting his footing back. as a basketball player and not necessarily rush him into the NBA. But, I mean, it's his life and his decision that if his dad can leverage a position for him in the NBA, and so be it. I mean, he's got a decent enough jumper.

He's skilled enough. I don't think he's a star, but I think he could play in the game, playing the league. But I also think that it would be good for him if he went back to a school and was able to just have a fully healthy season and didn't have to worry about just trying to recover and get confidence. He averaged 4.8 points per game for a bad pack 12 team, but to your point, he had a real health scare, a real heart health scare. A legit. Yeah.

That can really shake your confidence in what you can do. And I think it happened to him, like, at a practice or just a pickup game, like, that's going to mess with you mentally and give you doubt about, like, what am I doing out here? And so, but I don't know. I mean, at one point they said it was a first round pick, and now they're saying it's a second round pick. Right. I think that it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you've got a team that's willing to, you know,

give you a chance and give you an opportunity. But I wish that he wasn't being, you know, rushed or push into this, you know, NBA draft process. Right. Because I don't, I don't think he's proven that he is. I don't think he's shown that he is by what he did in college last year. Yeah. But, you know, sometimes you're in bad systems.

sometimes you're on teams that have too much, too much talent at your position. I mean, they had, you know, one of the top guards in the country, probably a lottery pick, you know, as the starting, you know, back court player on that team. The night he's going to take minutes from him. So it was just a tough situation for him to be in. So I don't know if he's a pro or not, but I know that his dad's going to make sure he is. Yeah, two more on the NBA, and then I want to ask you about the quarterbacks in the draft. We're talking to Michael Lee.

Can anybody in the East beat the Celtics? Can they win four out of seven against Boston or not? I thought that Milwaukee could be that team, but I don't know what's going on with Janice and Dane. I don't know if they're going to be able to come back and be healthy enough to contribute. If neither one of them can come back and play or if they can't do it, I don't see anybody in the East standing in the way of the Celtics,

even if they don't get Chris Sass-Prozingis to play at a high level. I think they can get through the East without them because they have the depth, they have the talent, they have, you know, Jason Tatum, who we talk about, you know, future faces into the league and all the young players. We kind of take him for granted because he's been so... He's been to the finals, too. He's been relevant on the good team.

Yeah, in the last, you know, eight years or six years, we're so used to seeing him on that stage and performing, but we're just like, ah, yeah, okay. Yeah, how old is he? I mean, he's got to be 20 years. 27 right now. Yeah. So and Yokic is 29. I mean, look, there were a lot of names we didn't mention. We didn't mention Luca. We didn't, I mean, there are others. But I'm kind of with you, like on the, I mean, I'd actually like to see the 76ers and healthy at that time. But that's the question. In Milwaukee, I'm not trusting that they're going to be healthy for a series against Milwaukee. So one more quick NBA. So I I mean, I stupidly in hindsight, back in January at one point, I took the Clippers to win the West at plus 800 when they were really starting to play well.

And Kauai was playing at a near MVP level for that, you know, month, month and a half or whatever it was, two months. It doesn't look like they're going to have him. But I'm just curious, do you think if they did have him at full health, which is always the big issue we've talked about Anthony Davis and others that have been heard? I mean, it was probably even money that he or Paul George was going to end up missing much of the postseason. But if they were fully healthy, would you give them a chance to win the West? I would, but it's funny.

He has played, what, two games in this series? Yeah, could barely walk. Yeah. And they're 0-and-2 in those games. Right, but he could barely walk in either of those games. I know. Yeah, I know, yeah. But, yes, but they won the games that he didn't play.

Right. But yeah, their championship hoax have always hens on him and his health. The one time they had a healthy Kauai was in the bubble, and he didn't want to be there and neither of his teammates. And you could see it when they blew that series against the Nuggets when that was their best shot to win the championship. And ever since then, it's just been another bad run of health for him and for Paul George. It's been upsetting because you remember what happened the last time you saw a fully healthy

Kauai play, you know, in front of a crowd and what he did with Toronto. And he hasn't been able to be that guy since then. It's five years. Like, Tom Flies. It's been five years. And, like, no one is left from that championship team in Toronto anymore. The coach is gone. All the player, all the starters are gone.

And so it's just like, man, a lot has changed. But what hasn't changed is that we still can't rely on Kauai, you know, to be healthy at this time of year. And it's sad. but I mean it's also kind of falls in line with the history of the Clippers. It's like this is their best chance to really be contenders and they can't get their guys on the court. But it's interesting that they've found a way

and that Hardin has actually been really good this postseason. It's been their most consistent player, and he doesn't have to defer to Kauai. I think some of the problems that they have, you know, late in the year, is that James still doesn't really know if he should be Houston Hardin or some other whatever version he is now, facilitator Harden, and he doesn't know how to balance that

whenever Kauai is out there, but whenever Kauai is gone, you can sort of see him more assertive James Harden, and that's what they need at all times, and I don't know how, I don't know why mentally he can't do it because he couldn't do it with the Sixers either. He couldn't be committed to being an aggressive force, you know, consistent force for them

because he was so busy just saying, oh, well, I got a passage of well, and, you know, it just led to him. and unhappy and for the Sixers to under G. Yeah, I mean, he had an incredible performance in game four. I mean, the back and forth between him and Kyrie down the stretch was incredible. And I'm not a big James Harden guy. I don't like watching a lot of ISO or two-man basketball,

even though a lot of the league does it. I mean, you know, well-coached teams, like the two teams last night, you know, there was a lot of Brunson with four guys standing around in overtime. But Hardin was incredible the other night. And you're right. And watching them during the regular season, you could tell they were still trying to figure it out. But I think when the game slows down, if he were healthy, it should go through Kauai. But it doesn't matter.

He's not going to play. And they're probably going to lose this series. I'm guessing they're going to. By the way, I said one more question. Kyrie Irving, without getting into the personal stuff and the sabotaging of situations he's been in, I mean, you're a historian and you love looking back on players in the past. I think in terms of scoring skill, the combination of ball handling and scoring ability, I don't know that a lot of people understand he's one of the greatest that's ever lived.

and it's been on display in this postseason where he also has always, when he's been engaged, when he's actually cared, he is the alpha in these big moments in the postseason. I thought he was incredible the other day and has been throughout this series. He has been, and I think Luca needs him because he's got a knee injury and he's not playing at full strength. And so somebody has to step up, and it is, Kyrie. you know, I am not the biggest Kyrie fan and a lot of it is rooted

in the things you just mentioned. Like, I can't brush over the sabotage. I can't either. I can't brush over some of the things that he's done. And so I don't, I don't know why. I have, I have, like, dark hater glasses when it comes to. I'm with you.

I'm talking, I'm separating the artist from the art. No, I think I can't, because I have my haters shades on whenever I see him before. I'm like, oh, that's cool, but yeah, M.J. only needed two dribbles. He didn't need 15, you know. I'm like that. I don't really care about, you know, doing all the fancy dribbling and all the fancy, you know, you know, theatrics and the, you know, circuit shots off the backboard and everything. I think it's cool. But I also think, you know, a little simplicity is something I admire, too, you know.

He's great, Michael. I can't stand them either. I can't stand them either, and I would never want to employ him, but when he's been in these situations where he's actually given a shit, he is a special all-time player. He is. I mean, he's got the championship to show it, but, you know, I'm still looking at, like, what happened in Boston, what happened in Brooklyn. I know. I mean, James Hardin ran away from him.

That's all you need to know. All right. Tell me about the quarterback. And personally, you know, I'm a big fan of Katie, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, hate that he wasted his last couple of really prime years playing with that guy. So it's tough of me to appreciate it. No, I mean, I think the whole situation in Brooklyn was really Kyrie for the most part. By the way, speaking of KD, I think you're a fan of KD.

I'm a fan of him as a player too. And I think one of the things that people don't realize is that the two titles that he won in Golden State, he was the best player on that team. And, you know, I don't know that. No one even questioned it when he was there. Well, I understand that. But I think when people look at what's happened since with him venturing out trying to win one without Steph and without Clay and without Dremont and without Steve Kerr and the whole thing, you know, there was the toe that was just barely on the three point line in the series against Milwaukee. I mean, it could have gone differently, but it didn't.

But to get swept out of the first round when Devin Booker and they brought Bradley out there. It's not a good look for him. But how good was Bradley? He was the worst you've ever seen him play in the postseason. He was bad. He was so bad in the final game. I talked about it. Literally, he could not.

It was almost like he was colorblind in terms of throwing it or dribbling it to the other team, the turnovers. Which, by the way, has always been a bit of an issue with him. I felt bad for him. I was like, man, he should not be out there on the floor. Whatever he's dealing with, he's. He's not healthy, and he's not right. But get back to Katie, and I'm glad you bringing it up. I don't know how much time you got, but I can go on and on about it.

Well, let's try to keep it short because I want to get to some football. I will say this. He is five years removed from an injury that should derail anybody's career. Nobody in the history of the game has come back from a rupture to kill him the way he has. He is a prolific score. He's one of the greatest players we've ever seen. Probably some people will say he is the greatest score we've ever seen just because of how simple he makes it.

all look, right? And he averaged 27, six, and six had an all-star season at age 35. At age 35, most players are gone from the league. They're no longer effective. They're no longer a championship contender. They're no longer leading championship contending teams. It happens. It happens to everybody at a certain age. Kobe Bryant never made the playoffs after age 32. AD is still performing at a high level five years removed from a rupture Achilles. And I don't think that's mentioned enough. So everyone who said, oh, he got swept by Boston, he got swept by Minnesota. Oh, this is such a scar on his legacy. Hold up. You don't continue to build a legacy year 17. Your legacy's already set. If there's anything more you have to prove at this stage in your career, you haven't done it

and you're not going to do it now. And when I mentioned earlier that you need to have a young stud that can really carry you, that's what you need if you're going to win it and be in a championship level. Devon Booker's a really nice player. He's a good player. He's a all-star caliber player. But he clearly isn't that kind of player that's going to elevate an older player to a champion. He wasn't able to do it with Chris Paul. He's not going to be able to do it with KD. And that roster, that team, was atrocious. That was one of the most poorly built teams in NBA history. They had no depth. They had no size. Think about this.

They were a... Counselor Lee here. Counselor Lee. Michael Lee, ESQ. Look, we're not in a court of law. We're in a court of opinion. We're in a court of opinion. I understand.

I understand. They were an undersized team with no athleticism. You know how you pulled that off? But there are people... They were an undersized team with no athleticism. How are they going to compete with the rules? We're not in a court of law. We're in a court of public opinion, counselor.

And what we have here is we have NBA fans, but really more so just casual NBA fans, that think that Kevin Durant rode the back of Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Steve Kerr, and the already crowned champions to his two titles. You could say that, but I will say this. When the Warriors won their first title, I'm not hating on anybody, I'm not trying to discredit anybody. When the Warriors won in the first title, LeBron James was by himself. The second best player was Matthew Delova Dova. They needed six games to beat LeBron by himself. They needed six games to beat LeBron by himself. I think this is one of LeBron's best moments, actually.

With Delavadova and with Kyrie and Kevin Love Out, he took that team to six games. Six games. Six games. And that's who they beat. The next year they lost to that guy. The next two years, they only needed nine games. to beat LeBron twice. Yeah.

I know. They needed. I'm with you. He was the best player on those two championship teams. They played him 13 games those two years before KD. And they lost one of them.

They played them nine games the next two. It was not close. Those details will get lost. They always do. No one cares about details. No one cares about context. No one cares about the fact that since he left Golden State, that he had to play with Kyrie,

who imploded and sabotaged the team, that James Hardin was playing on one leg. The Kyrie got hurt on the year. He stubbed his toe. The next year, they traded James Hardin for a guy named Ben Simmons, who did not play a single game for them. So they were a team that was built around three superstars. They had two, and then they played the Celtics team

and went to the NBA finals. So, of course, they're going to get swept. Last year, in Phoenix, he was with the team for like two weeks. He broke his, he hurt his ankle. He came back late in the year, never had a chance to establish any chemistry. They were the only team to win two games off the Nuggets. in the playoffs and they lost.

And this year he got swept. Okay, he's 35 years old. The defense rests. I could be here all that. The defense can rest now. The defense can rest now. Okay. By the way, when you said, when you said the greatest score in the history of the game,

he certainly is in the conversation. I'm with you on Kevin Durant as an absolute flat-out's all-time great score. If we take this set. If he ever needs a defense attorney, I'm his guy. Yeah, if we take this, let's take the centers out of the conversation. Would you put him ahead of Jordan? I wouldn't.

Yeah, I wouldn't. You said you would or would not? I would not either. Jordan, I mean, Jordan, I mean, yeah. Like I said, remember I thought about Kyrie and how Jordan did it with one or two dribbles? He got right to his spot. He knew exactly what he's going to do. He, you know, he was decisive and he was quick, and it was just.

Would you put him ahead of Kobe? the non-converse, in the non-center conversation? He has four scoring titles. Yeah. Name another guy that's not a senator that has four scoring titles. Well, Jordan, but how many did Gervin have? I had to look it up. I had to look it up.

I mean, that was a different area. Did you see the documentary on him on NBA TV? I have nothing documentary on Gervin. I would love to watch it. Oh, you have to watch it. It's so good. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of George Gervyn.

But I would say, I mean, Kevin was a four-time scoring champion, and then he decided that he was going to trade in, you know, putting up scoring numbers and be more efficient. And now he's been like a 50-40-90 guy, you know, maybe not each year, but his averages over that time has been that. So he's been efficient if he's not going to be a big-time scorer, you know. So he's going to put up respectable numbers, but be more about efficiency. And, you know, you know, I could talk about KD all day.

Gervin won four scoring titles. He won four. He won four? Yeah, I just looked at up. I'm just curious because I'm thinking about the greatest scores that were always among, like I actually thought briefly about Bernard King, but I'm looking at it right now. He only won one scoring title. Jordan won seven.

Jordan won ten, excuse me. Jordan won ten, yeah. I mean, every year he played, he basically won a scoring title, especially with the Bulls. Every year he won't play with the bulls he wants to score in title. Chamberlain 17. I mean, talking centers. Chamberlain 17. Okay.

Let's take a quick break and then we'll continue and talk some football, including quarterbacks that were just drafted with Michael Lee from the Washington Post, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, most of us are interested in our mental and physical well-being to a certain degree. And with that in mind, I'd like to welcome and introduce a new sponsor to the podcast. The new sponsor is Unified Healing, Unified spelled UNI-F-Y-D Healing. It doesn't matter if you're a big-time world-class athlete or just a somewhat athletic podcaster like me. We all understand the importance of mental and physical well-being and proper recovery for top-notch performance.

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medical advice diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care providers with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, including EE system. This segment of the show brought you by MyBooky. Go to mybooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and you'll get a cash bonus on your initial deposit Kentucky Derby on Saturday. This first weekend in May's got the Derby, it's got NHL playoffs, NBA playoffs. So for all of your sports and horsebook needs. Go to my bookie.orgie.ag and use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. We continue with Michael Lee from the Washington Post. Michael wrote a profile on Caleb Williams

back in the early portion of the football season for the Washington Post. So what kind of quarterback do you think he'll be for the Bears? You know, I don't know what kind of quarterback he's going to be, but I can say one thing. Based on how he has. constructed his life and his past, I would not doubt that he's going to be successful. Why? I spent time with him, and I spent time, I spoke to his dad, I spoke to his two of his mentors, I spoke to a lot of people, everybody's around him. This kid is determined, and he told me, I do not set small goals.

His goals, his aspirations are to be. He wants to be the greatest, and he's going after it. I mean, how many 10-year-olds say, I'm going to be the number one pick in the NFL draft, 10-year-olds say I'm going to be the number one pick and then do everything that he could possibly do to be the number one pick and then have it happen. Like, these are things that you dream about. These are goals that you like aspire to

and, you know, it's probably a shot in the dark. These are things that he feel like he can grab. And if you have that kind of determination and that kind of dedication, it's hard for me to doubt you. I mean, I don't doubt that he's going to be successful. I mean, it would have to be something that would derail him, an injury or something that I think that would knock him off. But this kid is focused.

He's polished. He knows how to communicate with people. He knows how to work a room. He knows how to deal with his teammates. And he does it in a way that's genuine. And it's because of how he was raised and who he was around. I remember, you know, I did a story on him last year, but I talked to him a little bit. And I noticed when I was around him at Disavent, you were there. Yeah.

It was, you know, with a fundraiser for his Caleb Kairs. program. And I just saw how he worked the room. I saw how he went from, you know, place to place, you know, whether it was a little kid or a grown man or whoever, and he just put on the charm and everyone melted in his presence. And I was just amazed by how he was able to do this at 21, just like he could really work a room. And so I asked him, I was like, man, you know, is that natural for you? Like, or do you have to turn on the light switch? Like, how are you able to be so easily moved through these situations? He's like, well, he's been watching this, said, I've been watching my dad my whole life, and that's he's a businessman, and that's how he does,

and I've been able to study him my whole life. And then, you know, so he's got that down. He knows how to work people and, you know, engage with people and relate to people and help them sort of feel comfortable in his presence, right? But then his mother ran a daycare, so he's got his dad has got the business in his mother ran at daycare, so he also knows how to care for people and look after people. And, like, he always, if you listen to all his interviews leading up to the draft, people ask him what he's about.

He's like, I care, I care, I care. and you can tell that he understands that as a quarterback, his role isn't just to throw the ball to the receivers and just make sure he makes plays, but he also has to make sure his linemen trust him, and they are engaged, and they feel like that he's going to play hard for them. And so he does a lot for his lineman.

He flew all his linemen with him to the Heisman trophy when he got the Heisman. He flew them all to New York. They had dinner. They all celebrated his moment, and he also said, I couldn't do it without you. And like, this is not an act for, him. This is how he really is.

So, long story, short, I feel like he's going to be successful because he's committed and dedicated in a way that few guys are his age. He didn't just stumble upon being the number one pick and say, oh, shucks, look at where I am. He looked at it and said, I'm going to go get it and he got it. And now that he's here,

he's saying, I'm going to be the greatest to ever do it. I don't know if that's going to happen, but I know that he's going to do everything in his power to try, and that's why I have confidence that he'll be successful. He's going into a good situation. I mean, I don't know about organizationally, but in terms of the talent on the roster. What did you think from, you know, just a reporter standpoint and following the NFL draft, following the quarterbacks because of

Caleb, what did you think about Washington taking Jaden Daniels? Well, I mean, you know, he's a hobby winner and he did it against the SEC. I mean, it wasn't just that he was just a guy that stood in the pocket and just threw the great receivers. He was making plays. He was, you know, you know, extending plays. He was running down the field. He was juke and defenders. He was doing everything that you could do. And he did his Arizona State as well.

So, like, he's a guy that knows his talent, his ability. He's a great leader. And so I think it's a great pick. It's just the thing that scares me. And, you know, like I said, I'm confident that kill will be fine. The thing that scares me about anybody else or even him is that it's so rare that you hit on the first round court. Yeah, I know.

So even if you, even if you, even if it looks great right now in the moment that you did this, that you got this pick, you know, it's like one out of every four turned out to be any good. I mean, look at how Caleb landed in Chicago. The Carolina Panthers were so dedicated in thinking they're serious about thinking that Bryce Young is going to be their future. They gave up, they gave up their future. And it landed in the Bears' laps. And now they don't know, no one knows what Bryce Young is, or no one's conference.

that he's going to be a star after having one of the lousiest rookie years he could imagine. And now the bears get a chance to build their future off of just a year ago, a franchise that thought they were going to be moving ahead in a place that now no one is sure about. So it's just, it's such a crapshoot, but it really is because it's so hard to measure humans, you know, and like how they're going to respond, what the environment's going to be like, what the culture is going to be like, how they handle pressure, how they handle the expectations, and just is the offense really geared for them? Is you going to mesh with the offensive coordinator?

Are they going to come up with a system that really plays to his strengths? They're trying to make him, you know, fit into some sort of box, you know, and that's what happened. Like, you could see what Patrick Mahomes, you know, just how great he is right now. But no one necessarily saw that when he went, you know, in the draft. Everyone thought that the Chief were fools for trade up to number 10 to take this gunslinger out of Texas Tech who showed no discipline and couldn't make, you know, basic plays and basic reads. And they're going to invest in him when they already had Alex Smith, and it looked foolish at the time.

But Andy Reed was the coach. And Andy Reed was like, oh, I can do something with this kid. He can do this, XYZ. I can come up with these plays. And we got speed. We got this receiver. We got this tight in. And they knew exactly how to create a culture and a system that was going to work for him.

And that's really what the commander's responsibility is now that got Jay and Daniels is really creating the coach. and the system that he can thrive in. And that's what's important for all of these quarterbacks and for any time you draft a guy. And you've got to invest fully into them and making sure that what you're building is something that's going to be beneficial to them

and not to the coach or to the organization. Because if it's not going to be beneficial to that quarterback, everybody else is going to suffer. The coach won't be around long, and the organization is going to falter and have to be back in the situation a couple of years, you're after the quarterback again. So I hope that Jaden is up for the task, is up for the challenge,

but I think the responsibility is going to fall firmly on the commanders to make sure that they play to his strengths and make sure that he can thrive in whatever system they come up with. And there's no reason to doubt them right now, but it's just a crazy thing that when it comes to football, and especially the quarterbacks, where you land and who you land with is just as important as just your ability. your ability to read a defense in the work hard.

But he's proven that he's willing to do the work. It just is, are they going to make them do the work that's going to be the right kind of work? Great job. Always appreciate it. Enjoy the conversation. Mr. Michael Lee on X on Twitter. And I would just click on to all of the stories he's written over the last year because they're more interesting. They're not really reporter stories as much as they are columns with a lot of information.

a lot of cool angles. I love the story that you wrote back. I can't even remember when you wrote it about who's playing football and where players are coming from. Yeah, well, the Mississippi one, exactly. Hey, thanks. Hope you're well. Thank you. And thank you for having me on. Appreciate it, man. All right, that is it for the show today. Thanks to Michael Lee. Thanks to Warren Sharp. Back tomorrow.