The Kevin Sheehan Show - The Sports Fix's Menu of Excellence

Episode Date: May 19, 2020

Kevin and Thom today on a few states that said no sports a few weeks ago but now have the welcome mat out for any and all major leagues to begin play. They talked "winners and losers" from The Last Dance. Why Michael Jordan hated Maryland more than Duke was discussed. LeBron James would've been "the greatest football player of all time"? Doc Rivers said it and the boys reacted. What DC sports topic would make for a compelling 10-part documentary? The guys had a few ideas. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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slash tips. You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. That's right, Sports Fix Tuesday today.

Tom, he's on the phone from his home in Frederick, Maryland. I'm in studio. Aaron's at home. Aaron, I think, might be rejoining me soon, Tommy. I think I'm ready to take the leap and have maybe Aaron come in in a mask, maybe. I don't know. I, you know, Tommy? Well, you know what, Kevin, Kevin, as long as the numbers keep going up, why not?

Which numbers are you looking at? Which numbers are going up? Maryland had, and this makes sense if you're doing testing, Maryland yesterday had their highest number of cases. I didn't see that news. I've seen the news of the states that have been reopened now for a while, and the numbers based on where they were prior to reopening haven't gone up. In some cases, they've even gone down.

You know... Maryland had their highest number of cases, I think, yesterday. Is that because we've got... Is that because we tested more yesterday? It's probably because of testing. I'm sure they're catching more. But that's, I mean, I shouldn't make you feel good. That means there's more people walking around there out there with the virus that we didn't know about before.

And, but it doesn't make me feel bad about it because that means there are more people that have been walking around the virus that haven't gotten seriously ill. You know, that means that not yet, but that means in, you know, perhaps that, as we've discussed before, the more people that have actually contracted the virus and haven't gotten ill. and maybe even been completely asymptomatic just means that the the lethalness of the virus is, you know, isn't what they originally thought. I think we know that already. Look, we've got states in the U.S. right now where they have, you know, the testing centers are just sitting there waiting for people to come in and get tested. Oh, I know. You know, I know. It just seems like the decisions to open up, it seems are moated.

you know, are motivated more by economics and fatigue, I think, than actual safety. You keep saying that. And by the way, I think everybody would prefer, you know, everybody that can afford to prefer being safe and healthy versus, you know, going back prematurely. but there isn't necessarily evidence of that in a lot of cases. I mean, I just think we, you know, it comes back to the same thing, and I don't want to start this podcast today off with 35 minutes of this. Because really what I'm going to do is I'm just going to go out

and try to find me some hydroxychloroquine and a Z-pack and some zinc and just take it as a preventative. Don't do that, by the way, regardless of who tells you to do that who tells you he's doing it. You know why? He ain't taking it. Somebody gave it sick with. I knew people.

Are people saying that because I watched it live as he, as he, you know, sort of very sort of spontaneously, it was not planned, I don't think, for him to say it. I kept looking at him like, I think this is one of his, you know, just complete off-the-cuff stretches of the truth, if not outright lies. I don't know if I even believe him. Are people saying that or not? Oh, yeah. People are saying that.

I joked on Twitter that somebody gave me sicklets and told him it was this. It was a placebo? Yeah. Shicklets. So you don't swallow it. You've got to chew it first? Yeah. Some people suggested, and this is where he's brilliant,

it was a diversion to take away any concentration on him firing another inspector general Friday afternoon. Right. Yeah, I know. Everybody just talking about the Friday night, the Friday firings. Yeah. So, look, Kevin, I'm not saying people shouldn't open up. I'm just saying my gut feeling is what's driving it is fatigue and economics. And if you want to invite Aaron in there to the studio, have at it.

I'm not showing up anytime soon. I don't want you to. You're vulnerable. You know, as you said day one, this thing has, this thing is targeting me. It's out to get me. I am, I, I, there's no doubt there's a fatigue factor. There is also, you know, an economic factor. There's also a desperation factor.

Yeah. I think the news yesterday from three governors in particular in New York, California and Texas, old Governor Andrew Cuomo, who, you know, has been lauded and complimented so much for the way he's been able to communicate to his state residence since the beginning of this thing. And he's a good communicator. There's no doubt about it. And look, putting him side by side with Trump as a communicator, I mean, anybody's going to look like a better communicator. His father was a great He was a phenomenal communicator. Forget politics.

Mario Cuomo was a great, great orator. But, you know, Cuomo starts, in my opinion. Yesterday, he said he's now encouraging sports teams in New York to reopen without fans. And the quotes were hockey, basketball, baseball, football, whoever can reopen, we're ready, willing, and able now. I think this is in the best interest of all people in the best interest of the state of New York, close quote. California Governor Gavin Newsom, who correct me if I'm wrong, just two weeks ago, said,

we may not have sports in California until 2021. He said that he's looking to resume sports without fans in the state as early as the first week or so in June. And then Texas Governor Greg Abbott said he's ready to start things at the end of May. And in addition, he went a step further and said, look, Little League Baseball can resume play now. with parents watching under social distancing guidelines. I mean, I think over the last week or so, as Florida and Arizona in particular have really legitimately become open to this, you know, some of these states are going to start thinking to themselves,

we have been economically beaten down. We can't have this potential revenue going to another state. Can't have it. I know. You're right. Texas on Saturday had their highest rate of new cases with 33 deaths on Saturday from the coronavirus. Where did that daily death rate rank? I'm not sure. Yeah. Sounds pretty... I'll tell you what. If 33 people in Texas in one day died from rabies, it'd be a big deal, wouldn't it?

Died of rabies? Yes. Yes, and the relevance of that is what? Well, the point is, don't dismiss it because it's coronavirus and it's a lower number than what everyone expected. Well, I mean, how many people are typical to die of a heart attack or heart disease on a given day? In Texas? Yeah. They don't have any hearts in Texas, so I don't know.

And by the way, we don't get data from Texas because they're a different country. Yeah. And by the way, in Florida, the other state, the governor there is hiding, is hiding data. The data scientist who designed the COVID-19 dashboard has been removed from her position because she refused to censored data and manipulate numbers to generate support for reopening, according to what she says. Okay. So I wouldn't trust anything that came out of Florida or Texas. I'll tell you what. I'll be honest with you.

I don't trust anything that's coming out of anybody right now. I really don't. I, you know, one week we're hearing one thing. The next week we hear another. One week this person's doing a terrific job. The next week he's doing a terrible job. One week, you know, it's ventilators and masks. The next week it's testing.

And now here we are with states that apparently are just, sitting there waiting on people to come in and get tested. Apparently, Cuomo now has plenty of tests. So, you know, we talked about this last week, and I asked you just a simple question, why is everybody up in arms? Why do we need 330 million tests or, you know, a test per person? Well, the answer is we don't. But that doesn't stop people from claiming that it's imperative that we do. I don't really want to have this conversation. The sports conversation is interesting because to me, all of the sudden, the desire to open up states, New York in particular, because of all of the outbreaks in it being a hot spot for so long, to me reeks of, well, we can't

let that revenue go somewhere else. It does. It absolutely does. I mean, it's desperation and pressure and hopefulness, you know, that a second wave won't, I mean, New York, of all places, because of the proximity of so many people in one small area

has the biggest risk if there is a second wave. But look, look at, my hope is that I'm in a press box like September somewhere, even watching football or baseball at the latest. Yeah, I don't know that

you're going to be in a press box watching baseball or football, but you're going to be watching baseball or football and probably working. But again, I think covering it virtually for a while. I don't, I mean, here's the thing. I know it's repetitive here, but if these sports try to reopen with the belief that one positive test would somehow cripple their sport or a team in it, then they can't reopen.

They have to be prepared to move forward with positive tests. Because I don't think anybody knows anything, but I would bet a million dollars if I had it, and it was my last million dollars, that there's going to be an athlete when these sports that reopen who tests positive. They have to be able to move on from that. No one could move on from it in March. Rudy Gobert shut down sports all by himself. It was going to happen regardless, whether it not.

it was him or somebody else. If they have, all these sports have to be prepared that if somebody tests positive in their sport, a coach, a player, and this central person, that the sport's going to move forward. And they're going to have some sort of plan that everybody gets tested and those that test positive at that point sit out and those that don't get to play, whatever the plan is. Because if you don't have that as a plan to move, if you don't have a plan to move forward after a positive test, then this is fools gold. I agree.

But again, I said this, and you kind of dismissed it, the biggest roadblock to all this, if that happens, will be the discussions that will take place in people's homes between husbands and wives, players and their wives, about the safety of doing what they're doing. There will be a lot of pressure in homes, in all these sports, about the risk they may be putting their family at. even if it's a minimal risk.

I think every family is going to have a unique conversation. Some, you know, I mean, these are, for the most part, super healthy, very young, very low risk individuals. And by the way, their spouses and their children are very low risk in most cases. And I don't know. And not all spouses would be. And they make a shitload of money and they haven't been getting paychecks recently. So regardless of how wealthy they are, and some of them are so beyond wealthy, it may prompt the conversation of, is it really worth it?

Maybe you don't need to play anymore. We have enough money to live the rest of our lives and generations beyond us. But I would bet that the significant majority of athletes in professional sports are going to play. And that there will be a story here or there, somebody who says I'm not taking the risk, but it's going to be well into the 90s percentile of players and coaches who play and coach. If anything, it would be older coaches that may feel like it's not worth the risk. That may be. But then it comes down to, of that small group of players, who were the players we're talking about? Yeah, I mean, if it's a huge... If a Mike Trout

says, I'm not putting my family at risk. I mean, he's exactly fixed the sort of scope or he doesn't need the money to play this year. Right. Well, anyway, let's get to the last dance. Let's start with that, because it'll actually be a nice segue into something else I want to talk about. It killed it. It's the all-time most watched documentary ever on ESPN. I don't know how it ranks to any other documentary on any other.

network, but an average of 5.6 million people watched it throughout its run. By the way, just as an aside, did you see the NASCAR ratings from over the weekend? I just read the headlines that they were the most that they've had in quite a few years. The Darlington race on Sunday, which was called the Real Heroes 400, which aired on Fox. Average. Average. 6.3 million viewers up 38% from the last NASCAR race, which was run in Phoenix on March 8th before the pandemic shutdown. I mean, it really does indicate an incredible appetite right now for live sports. Now, I didn't really watch any of the NASCAR. I didn't even watch the live charity golf event that much. I watch very little of it. I need real sports. I need real sports. I need

real events. I need real competitions. The Darlington one was, but I'm not a NASCAR guy, so it doesn't matter anyway. But I talked about it yesterday for a little bit, and I'll circle back to it with you, but why don't you go first and give me sort of, you know, a couple of your biggest, you know, and most favorite moments from The Last Dance. Well, what's interesting on the Last Dance is, you know, If it only enhanced Jordan's legacy, and it did, obviously, I think it reminded everybody who had forgotten how great he is, it elevated Steve Kerr. Steve Kerr's, like, if they were given Oscars out, best supporting actor, Steve Kerr. That's a good question, by the way.

Who was the best supporting actor in The Last Dance? I mean, Steve Kerr, I mean, I think just, I mean, just enhanced his legacy. And that's without even talking about his post-playing career legacy, which will put him in the Hall of Fame. Well, not mentioned once at all during the 10 episodes, I don't believe. There's nothing about Kerr, you know, as a coach or a broadcaster. No. No. But so that was my impression is how much Steve Kerr. uh,

shined in, particularly in the end, the last couple of, uh, of episodes, talking about his father, uh, and,

and how he was shot and killed. Uh, and, you know, obviously, you know, I was surprised. He,

he, he said, him and Jordan never talk about losing their father. Yeah, I agree. I, that was, that surprised me.

He said it, he said it was too, I get too painful, uh, to share. I actually thought he sort of implied, that maybe Jordan didn't even know the history of Steve Kerr's family. That's probably true.

Let's face it. I mean, we saw that Jordan was pretty focused on Jordan. And when it was focused on somebody else, it was, how can that person help me? Yeah, you know, Kerr was definitely over the last, you know, I don't know, four episodes, five, six episodes, whatever it was. was he was a really good storyteller. He was involved in a couple of the key moments. Obviously, the fight that he got in with Michael at practice when Michael came back, him taking the last shot, the story of Kerr.

You know, one of the things I think I pointed out yesterday on the podcast is that it's a bit of a reach for people who may come out of that, thinking that Steve Kerr was like this massive underdog story. You know, I understand that he didn't have any scholarships until his senior year. in high school, but the scholarship that he did get was to the University of Arizona, which was a basketball powerhouse under Lut Olson at the time. And he had a spectacular college career at Arizona. He was a, for any college basketball fan, you know, during that period of time in the 80s, Steve Kerr had become a household name if you're a college basketball fan. Those teams, those Sean, those Lute Olson teams, one of them went to the final four that had Kerr and

Elliott as sort of the lead guys on that team. You knew who Steve Kerr was. He wasn't an undrafted guy. He was picked in the second round. And back then it was more, I think it was more than seven, more than two rounds in the draft back then. I could be wrong about 1888 or 89, whatever year he was he was picked. But he was not this, you know, out of nowhere guy nobody had ever heard of him underdog story. He was a hell of a college basketball player. And must have been a hell of a high school player, even if it was his senior year, to get an offer from Arizona. Yeah. I mean, when he said, I got one college scholarship, I thought he was going to say from some junior college for something like that. I didn't think he'd say Arizona.

I think Dennis Rodman enhanced his status. He might be the leading. He might be the best supporting actor of the series. Oh, my mind is Kerr, but Rodman comes close. I mean, I think people have a newfound respect for his ability and have maybe a newfound respect for what unusual phenomenon he was at that time. In sports, particularly in the NBA. I mean, to basically go from playing in the finals to one night to wrestle. in WWE the next?

You know, I mean, who does that? Today, you know, nothing does that. So I think his situation was certainly enhanced. I read an article that says Scotty Pippen is very upset with the way he's been portrayed in the documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And look, I mean, if he's talking about the fact, you know, the point where he refused, you know, to come off the bench. I'm not talking about the migraines, but at the end of that game, where the play was to Tony Kukov, and he refused, because it wasn't for him, he pouted, there's no way to sugarcoat that. No, none. You're right. No.

And his players, I mean, it was, it was obviously something that, in a situation like this, you know, where time heals wounds, that's a wound that's not healed. Yeah, there's no way to get away from that. And there's really, it would have been hard to get away from telling that story as part of the Bulls, you know, eight-year run, six titles with Jordan. I mean, he did that. He quit on his team because he didn't get a play called for him at the end of a playoff game. You know, you can't really, you can't make, it's really hard to make a case that he did the right thing. Yeah. And he looks bad.

I mean, look, the part, the other part is what came across, which is the truth, and I guess what probably bugs him, is he, it came across throughout the entire documentary, which it wasn't about him. It was about Michael Jordan, but still, he was clearly the second banana on the bull, on those both teams. Right. He was Robin, and Michael Jordan was Batman. And I guess that bothers him to some extent. I don't know how you get him. But it didn't bother him during, you know, the course of this series, you actually, I felt like Pippin really had incredible self-awareness

about what he was, who he was, and it didn't ever manifest itself into, you know, a problem. with Pippin wanting more of the attention. And by the way, Pippin, it turns out that Pippin was a much better, was more well-liked and was closer with his teammates than Jordan ever was. I think that's one of the things I was going to mention, if I didn't mention it yesterday's. I think we learned from this, and even Steve Kerr, you know, said it, that Jordan lived a completely different life than everybody else in that team. It was hard for him to be close to any of his teammates.

He had different responsibilities. He was a worldwide brand. And because of it, it appeared to me, and Kerr pretty much implied this, that his teammates never really got to know him personally. And he wasn't necessarily close with any of his teammates. And I pointed out, Tommy, that if anything, the thing that you learned about Jordan is that he had that sort of old soul personality. he got along better and seemed to gravitate towards older people that were around him in his life.

You know, the people... The guy who was closest to him was his security guard. George, well, Gus was, and Gus became a bit of a father figure, but George Kohler consistently gets Chiron as personal assistant and best friend. Yeah. Look, I think Pippen's reaction in the moment of the documentary, it's different than Pippin's reaction now to the aftermath of the documentary. Sure.

No, I understand that. And I think that's what he's kind of, he's hearing all over again, everyone worship at Michael Jordan's feet and how everybody else, it was Jordan and the Jordanaires. He's reliving that. And, you know, he's, I've never been a huge Scotty Pippin fan. But he's one of the top 50 players in the history of the league. Easily. He's higher than top 50. I know that. I know that. I absolutely know that. But I think he just hates reliving that again.

And so I guess what he should do is convince ESPN to make a documentary about Scotty Pippen. Yeah, I'm surprised. You know, I was surprised to read that. I think Jackie McMullen wrote the story about how Pippen is not happening. at all and that Rodman, as part of that story, or at least the story I read, and it could have been a follow-up story, Rodman's been very much sort of out there defending Pippen. Yes, he had. And that, you know, and throughout, that's why I'm saying that throughout the series, one of the things I think that I got out of it is how well-liked and respected Scotty was. And how, you know, remember there was that one episode where Scotty maybe, you know, when Jordan came back and

And, you know, Jordan was really tough on people, and Scotty was the guy that went around and said, don't worry about it. You know, this is what he does and don't take it personally. Scotty was the guy that was well-liked. And, by the way, Scotty was, you know, you said top 50, and I'm not here to, it's not my point to argue it. But Scotty Pippen really is one of the greatest combo offensive and defensive players in one body in NBA history.

You know, he really was a great player. But his legacy, sorry, Scotty, you can't leave that part of the story out. You can't. You can't leave that part of the story out. It's impossible to leave out the part of the story where you quit on people. And Cartwright had to address the team, and he broke down crying about it. And people were really upset with you. But you apologized and you got back into the series.

And it's also, you can't rewrite history that you won a title without Jordan because you didn't. You won 55 games, but in the second year, they were struggling, and they needed Mike. They didn't win it that year when he came back late in March, but he gave him a better chance. I mean, the – And I think he was also reminded about – and I think he doesn't like the – maybe he does. I think he does like it when people feel sorry for him, probably. But the other part of the early day – of the early episodes was – what a stupid contract he had.

Right. God, you know what? And, you know, he took it, from what I've gathered, he took it for the security of the money for his family rather than risking long-term security for his family rather than betting on himself in a couple of years to cash in on his talent. You know, if you go back to that point in time,

and we got Scotty Pippen's entire back, story, you know, growing up, you know, one of, I forget, was it 11 or 12 siblings in Arkansas, playing basketball on a dirt court, you know, having tragedy in the family, including to his father and at least, I think, one brother. And, you know, growing up, you know, very poor, you know, it's really hard for anybody to put yourself into his position where he's offered this long-term, you know, opportunity at long-term financial. sort of comfort for him and his family. And even though it was in retrospect a bad contract,

and Jerry Rinesdorf should have, because it would have happened with a different owner in a different time, that they would have gone to Pippen not selflessly. It would have been selfishly. It would have been a selfish motive because they didn't want to lose them when the contract ran out. But most owners would have gone to Pippen and said, we want to tear this contract up and give you another deal that pays you a lot more money

in these final three years of the deal but keeps you here for another four years beyond that or whatever. But he didn't do that. He seemed to be very stuck on this notion of you sign a contract, you live up to that contract. And when it's over, we'll try to do a new contract. Well, it wasn't in the best interest of the Bulls to be that short-sighted on Pippin's contract. You know, unless you want to say, unless you want to say they got the best of the deal and the thing ended, you know, after the 98 season, and Pippin never made another dime from them. You know, so the Bulls got the better of a one-sided deal with Scotty Pippin and six titles. But the issue with that is maybe there would have been more of a chance to extend the thing. But it's, Pippin wasn't the hold-up.

Pippin wasn't the issue. The issue was Jerry Krauss and Phil Jackson and Jerry Krauss and others in that organization. And Reinsdorf, you know, and he gave that explanation, by the way, as Michael was watching it on his iPad at the end of episode 10, you know, Reinsdorf explaining that we couldn't keep this team together. We couldn't keep Bushler and Kerr and Rodman and other guys together because they were going to demand too much money. And Michael essentially says that's bullshit. it. I would have signed for a year, and a lot of these players to come back and attempt to win a seventh title would have signed for a one-year deal as well. That sort of rings hollow to me, too.

Yeah, it does. And the one guy he did preface. Pippin. That was Pippin. Yeah. The one guy he did preface. And, you know, they wouldn't have won a title, another title that year, particularly with the Spurs, you know, starting to move up, making their narrative. move that year. They wanted to have won one without Pippin. True, but Michael thinks that he would have been able to convince Pippin to come back to try for a seventh at that point. I mean, they would have had to pay him for at least a year, and maybe Pippin would have held out and they would have

had to create a long-term deal with Pippin. Who knows? But yeah, the next year was the first year of the, you know, Duncan Robinson, you know, Spurs and, you know, in that run, because they took out the Nix if you recall, who made it back to the finals in 99. I mean, I still think that the biggest takeaway from this documentary is how the hell did they let it come to an end? How, in God's name, did Reinsdorf, did Phil Jackson, did Michael Jordan? How did Michael Jordan let it come to an end? He didn't own the team, but he could have gone and said, what are we doing here? Are you serious?

I mean, you've got to fire Jerry Krauss, and then Phil will come back, and then Scotty will be okay signing a one-year deal, and all of the supporting players on the roster will be able to get back here, and we'll be able to go for seven. Why would you do this? I mean, tell me. But I think Michael knew Reinsorff well, and he knew that that wouldn't fly with Reinsdorf. Like I told you before, Reinsdorf has a lot of good qualities.

He's very old school, very loyal, extremely loyal, but he's also a hard ass. I mean, a real hard ass. And it's not likely to count to basically be sympathetic to a player walking into his office, even a player like Jordan, and telling him that the guy that, I mean, he could have fired Krauss. You know, I mean, Reinshor wasn't oblivious to what was going on. I don't think that it would have made any difference at all to Reinsor. Well, Reinsdorf did say that he wanted to make another run at Phil, and Michael obviously says he was ready to go for seven. I don't know. Clearly, there was a combination of a sense of perhaps they had gotten the most out of it, and maybe that was Phil to fill to a certain degree. That was Phil said it was time to go.

Yeah, now Phil, remember also, you know, has the perspective of being told before the season started by the general manager that you could go 82 and O win the title and you're not coming back. But, you know, perhaps we got the sense from Phil that he thought maybe the run was over. There were hurt feelings along the way, whether it was Pippin or Krause and others. there was an owner who was far, far more deferential to a general manager than probably he should have been. But to your point, maybe that was just part of his personality. And, you know, they had one, they had one six, two, three beats, you know, and there was some symmetry to that, you know. But anyway, I still think, so here, I wrote something down when you were talking about Kerr and Rodman earlier. and that is, you know, you think Kerr's legacy was enhanced, and Rodman's also.

What do you think about Jordan? What did you think about Jordan after this? You know, I think everybody understands the greatness of Jordan. I don't think that's debatable. Young people who weren't privy to that era, you know, even are blown away with what they saw if they were watching the documentary. And I think some of that polling on ESPN proved it. 18 to 34-year-old said 66% to 34% Jordan's the superior player to LeBron James. But what did you think of Michael the person when this thing was over, especially with the context of

he said before this series started that a lot of people aren't going to like me when this thing is over? Well, I think the intensity, the single-mindedness that he had, no matter what human feelings were involved, I think I knew that already. I wasn't surprised by the way he came across. So I wasn't necessarily surprised by anything. And look, I think Jordan deep down, I'd like to think, you know, because of the way he treated some people, you know, it's a good-hearted guy who just has an unbelievable competitive streak about him in terms of everything.

But I think ultimately, Michael wants to do the right. That's where you draw the line. I mean, do they want to do the right thing? You know, it's at his first move. And I still think when it comes down to it, that's the kind of guy he is. it may get lost behind all the competitiveness and bravado, but I think ultimately, Jordan, in most situations in his life, wants to do the right thing.

Am I, am I? I agree. No, I think I agree with you on that. I made this list when you were talking earlier about Kerr in saying that he was the biggest winner. He would have won best supporting actor, and I just made the very cliche winners and losers list off of this documentary. And the winners to me are Jordan number one because I found him to be an even more compelling figure, maybe even a deeper figure than I thought, that, you know, the player that he was, the competitor that he was,

you know, there's a lot that we knew going into what we were reminded of. There's a lot that we didn't know. by the way, there's a really interesting story, just as an aside, please remind me to get to this when we're done about Jordan. His original preference college-wise was Maryland, which I did not know that. But we'll get to that in a minute. But Jordan, to me, came off as, I really like Michael Jordan, I think, even more. And I think he's a, maybe he's a more complex figure than I thought. not like super complex, but more than I thought.

Phil was a winner in all of this. Chuck Daly to me was a winner in all of this, and I'll get to that in a moment. Rodman was a winner, and I think, Kerr, you're right, you know, came off as very much a winner. The two coaches, Phil Jackson and Chuck Daly in particular, their handling of Dennis Rodman in particular, made them, you know, shine in this series. And I think I mentioned this to you a week or two ago after one. one of the episodes, maybe it was after the Rodman episode, which was way back at the beginning of this thing, that Dennis Rodman was very lucky in his life to have gotten Chuck Daly and

Phil Jackson as his two coaches. He could have ended up in a bad organization with a bad coach or a bad series of coaches that would not have been as empathetic, would not have been his emotionally understanding of his issues, which were, you know, let's face it, mental instability. and he was blessed to have had two guys that really made the effort to understand him and had sort of innately this empathetic part of them. By the way, probably wouldn't have happened if Rodman hadn't been as good as he was. But I thought that Phil and Chuck Daly both came out as winners in this thing. And then the losers list, Isaiah is number one on the list off of this documentary.

Rinesdorf and Krauss, both, Krause in particular, comes off. But they both in tandem shut this thing down, essentially. And then Tommy, you know who I think maybe the biggest loser of this documentary was? LeBron James. Because Michael Jordan's legacy was enhanced to a level that I don't even think anybody could have been imagined. that it would have gone. And he was introduced to a generation that has absolutely believed for a while now that LeBron James is the greatest player in the history of the game. And they don't necessarily, they're not convinced of that anymore. LeBron James has been compared to Michael so much over the last five weeks.

It's really incredible. And I don't know if you saw this, but Brian Windhorst, I guess LeBron made an appearance on uninterrupted, and alluded to the fact that Michael would have been a great teammate more than an adversary. And so Brian Windhorst wrote about it and tweeted it out and wrote, as people compare and argue about their legacies, LeBron James says he's envisioned Michael Jordan as a teammate, not an adversary. And he wrote a story about that. LeBron retweeted the Windhorst story and wrote the following. No, I didn't say I envisioned MJ as a teammate, not an adversary. A question was asked, do I think I could have been a teammate of his and compliment his game? I love the greats. I would have loved to have played with them all during their runs because I'm a historian

of the game, but I also would die to compete versus every single one of them to, exclamation point. Don't ever get it twisted. And then he puts the emoji of, you know, a king's crown. Nevertheless, MJ, thank you for being my angel, inspiration, and superhero. But Brian Windhorst is a friend of LeBron James's. You know, he's been as close to LeBron as any media member for, you know, LeBron's career. And LeBron just outright retweeted it and refuted it. And I think he did it, Tommy, because I think there's been this sense over the last five weeks that Michael's a better player, a better competitor, you know, and all of that. And by the way, LeBron would have been a perfect compliment to Jordan's game. Perfect.

But what do you make of that of him retweeting that? Well, I think that's a very good observation to put him on the list of losers. I think you're right. I think he's overcompensating for this reputation he had, you know, of, of, he was the ringleader considered in the recruitment of the super team they had in Miami, basically. And, you know, and he received a lot of criticism from old school NBA guys saying, we didn't try to get the guys that were beaten us to play for us. we tried to beat them.

You know, I mean, and that that was the argument, whether fair or not, right. From some of the old-school NBA guys against LeBron. And I think LeBron's been, you know, living with that. I mean, LeBron, I think, you know, it's funny because Jordan and LeBron, you could say, are both ultra-sensitive to criticism, but one uses it as fuel. and I don't know what LeBron does with it. I mean, LeBron gets defensive and Jordan gets aggressive.

Yeah, I think you're right about LeBron getting defensive. Nowhere near as defensive as, let's just say, Kevin Durant would have gotten. Had Kevin Durant been in this LeBron spot over the years. But, you know, yeah, there's no doubt that it's defensive and that they both were, you know, they both reacted. to criticism, but they both reacted to it differently. I think that's true. You know, the thing about LeBron, and I'm not a, I'm not a big LeBron fan. I've never been a big LeBron fan. I respect the game, and you know in all of our conversations over the years, I totally get the comparison to Magic more

than Michael. He's always been more Magic Johnson than Michael Jordan in a lot of different ways, in style of game in sort of the way he is on the court. Jordan and Kobe have always been sort of similar. Magic, LeBron's always been more similar to magic. But anyway, LeBron has something else. Jordan wasn't winning titles in his first seven or eight years or whatever, however long it took seven years. And he was losing to great teams, the Pistons teams.

but Jordan was carrying his team in a similar way to the way LeBron was carrying his team, but there was one big difference. LeBron seemed to shrink through that first half of his career when he wasn't in a front-running position. You know, there is all of the examples we can go through, whether it was that series that they lost to Boston when he was in Cleveland, where he basically, you know, went completely AWOL in one of those games. I think it was game five or game six when he barely even shot, like he took 12 shots from the floor or whatever it was.

There was the series in Miami when they played Dirk in Dallas in the finals, and he literally at the end of game three was hiding in the corner, didn't want any part of the ball on key possessions. It was like a hot potato. Like LeBron went through this period in his career. He really did where there was like an anxiety issue. You know, that's not imagined. We all witnessed it.

And then he had the game that I think turned it all around. And it was that game in Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals when he was in Miami. And they're down three games to two. Rondo's having a ridiculous series. in that particular Eastern Conference Finals. And LeBron goes at, they're down three, two. I think it was Rondo, I forget Pierce and others, and they're down three, two in a series that they should win.

They've got home court advantage. And they go to Boston for game six. It was like a Thursday or a Friday night national TV. And LeBron had never, up until this point, delivered the way he delivered. 45 points, 15 rebounds, like 10 assists. was a triple double, and they won that game, and they went on to win game seven, and then they got that first title against OKC with the heat. And, you know, he's had great moments and great

clutch moments since. I mean, even though I think Kyrie Irving sort of won that game seven at Golden State, he was brilliant in game five and game six. So Jordan never once, never once was questioned about his ability to deliver with the game on the line. Never once. No. No, and never once. Again, when I talk about what their differences in reactions would be, aggressive versus defensive, Jordan, I mean, Jordan's reaction was always like, like, I had to describe it,

kind of like a fighter. You know, Jordan, whenever anyone would suggest publicly that, you know, that Jordan wasn't the best or that somebody was as good as him, he would react with disdain and you could argue, you know, no regard at all for what people thought of what he said or that person,

where I think LeBron, you know, reacts defensively, things of all considerations and how he'll come across and what, you know, I just think their reaction to the same thing illustrates the difference in clutch moments.

Yeah. You know, I mean, Jordan's reaction with, you know, is basically, I mean, you know, LeBron's just just different. They're just different guys. You know, I mean, Totally different guys. Yeah, look, LeBron,

I think LeBron is a good guy, and I think his first move, for almost everything is to do the right thing. But, you know, me, I've always, I mean, I'm in the Will Chamberlain camp, a greatest of all time. But I think Jordan put a lot of distance between, some distance between himself and LeBron in that argument after this, because of this documentary.

You know, the other big difference between the two, and I know this is era-driven, probably. LeBron runs his team. LeBron is basically owner-general manager, coach, and star player of the teams that he's been on. Michael Jordan was told after Doug Collins was fired, his favorite coach, and that Phil Jackson had been hired. That would never happen with LeBron, ever. And again, I understand the difference in eras, you know, where LeBron essentially,

ushered in the I'm going to play general manager slash owner and put together my team and they're going to allow me to do this basically. It's just a completely different set of. And by the way, I don't really care. I don't love it. I like teams staying the same. I like, you know, trying to beat them rather than join them. I didn't love the Durant move from OKC to Golden State, even though I acknowledge Durant's a great player. And I acknowledge that LeBron's a great player. And LeBron's got three titles and he's been in nine championships. But he was also able to put together these teams, including the one he's on right now that had a chance to win a title this year.

You know, so that's a big difference, a huge difference. Like if Jordan, imagine Jordan and his contemporaries being in this era, we would have seen, we would have seen Michael, Patrick, and Barkley on one team. Yes. Yeah. That would have been a good, by the way, I just put together a pretty good, you know, group. We need a point guard. Maybe we'll see if Stockton wants to come.

I think we can get Stockton because, you know, Barclay is going to be our forward. Jordan's going to be our two guard. Stockton's our point guard. And, you know, we'll get Patrick his first title. I mean, ridiculous. But that's what happened. You know, this other thing, I kept thinking throughout the documentary, and let's do this with Kerr here in particular, is the post-playing careers of Jordan and Kerr. Right.

Steve Kerr. I mean, Jordan's career as an owner of the Charlotte Ballcat has, has, has. been invisible at best, disappointing at worst. And given how competitive he is, I would think you would think that this must eat him alive. How can he live with it? How can he live with all that losing? Do they have to hide his players from him so he doesn't go down and beat them?

I mean, this is the guy, I mean, he comes across so competitive that, I mean, literally, I don't know how he could keep his sanity and be the owner of that franchise. I know. I mean, I had Buck on the radio show two weeks ago, I think, and he and Phil are doing a podcast together. And they're telling stories about the Jordan era in Washington. And by the way, as an aside, I don't think I said this. I couldn't have cared less. This story was not about Jordan and Washington. It was a story about, Jordan's Bulls, you know, and a story about the Bulls. I didn't care that we didn't get any of the Washington stuff. But, you know, Buck told... But I think there's a story to tell about Washington, a separate story. Yeah, but I, but it's not a ten-parter. No. But the, Buck told the story of,

you know, being on flights and, you know, coming off a loss. And Jordan at one point was so angry and so frustrated with his teammates and everything that he went to the back of the plane and hung out with the older guys, you know, which by the way was a constant theme during this thing, just to come back to it briefly. Jordan, I think, you know, I think what it says to me, Tommy, is there was actually a maturity about him because older people tend to be, and maybe it was about being around older people who weren't going to sort of revere him. you know, anyway, I digress. Bucks told the story about Jordan being incredibly frustrated, you know, being a part of those teams and being really frustrated with guys like Kwame Brown. And, you know, we've seen that over the years. Great players not being able, not making the transition to great owner or great general manager. We've seen it both ways, obviously.

You know, Jerry West is one of the great general managers in the history of the sport. but, you know, more often than not the best coaches, the best general managers, front office guys, or guys that weren't stars that had to figure out a way to be, you know, to get their production based on, you know, more of what they learned and knew rather than their athletic talent. Jordan, by the, was both. Jordan was both as a player. I don't want to, you know. But anyway, I don't know.

Yeah, Kerr, an all-time great coach. Phil Jackson. How about Phil Jackson? He goes to L.A. and just keeps winning. I mean, talk about charmed life. And by the way, who was responsible for Phil Jackson? Jerry Krause, ironically. That's right. The last thing on that series real quickly, I really, really loved the way Steve Kerr told the story about the last team meeting, you know, after that season, about the 10-KK with the flame and the stories. You know, I don't know if anybody, if Jordan, you know, knows what that poem was,

but it would be really interesting to hear his poem. I love the way Phil said. I didn't realize that Michael could go that deep emotionally. And, you know, Kerr called it, like, essentially, I'm paraphrasing here, because I'd written it down, but I don't see where my notes are on this, but one of the more profound moments of his life as that lights went off and the flame burned all of what they had. He said it was a moment he'll never ever forget. Wait, we didn't even mention the pizza thing, which there was more news about the pizza story.

Did you see the news that came out from the guy that actually was working? There's a Utah guy that claims he was the one that made and delivered the fateful pizza. Did you hear? I mean, you know the part. I saw that headline. Yeah, I know the story. So it's a Utah man named Craig Fight posted on Facebook that he was the guy who made and delivered the pizza to Jordan. He was on a radio show in Salt Lake City giving his version of the story. He says at the time of the flu game, Fight had been recently hired as assistant manager at a pizza hut in Park City, Utah, about 30 minutes from downtown. Salt Lake. You know, Tommy, that's where I just was right before the pandemic. I was out in Park City for my niece's wedding, and it's more like, you know, Park City to Salt Lake is about 40, 45 minutes,

but whatever, it's close enough. But anyway, he says that the Bulls had already been staying at the Park City Marriott for a few days, and Fight says everyone in the local food service industry knew which hotel they were at. When a delivery order came in from that hotel, The employee who answered the phone said he thought it was for one of the players. This guy, Fight, Craig Fight, as the only Bulls fan working there, took control of the order. He said, well, I'm delivering it. He said, I remember saying this. I will make the pizza because I don't want any of you doing anything to it.

And then I told the driver, you're going to take me there. Michael's order was a large, thin, and crispy pizza with extra pepperoni. Fight insists that because he was still a new employee and eager to impress, he made sure to follow the food prep guidelines to a tea. All of the ingredients were fresh. Nothing was added that could have gotten Jordan sick. Fight and the unidentified driver went to the hotel, checked in at the front desk, and went up to the bull's floor. As soon as the elevator door opened, it was like I got punched in the face with cigar smoke, Fight said. Fyte's account of what happened next differs wildly from the account presented by Jordan's trainer, Tim Grover, you know, in that last episode, where he says five guys basically delivered the pizza.

Fyte says it was just him and his delivery driver, and he didn't even have five guys working the restaurant that night, that late at night. He says the great guy who's been saying all this crap lately, apparently referring to Grover, He says, was the one who opened the door and gave him $20 for the pizza and a tip. Craig Fight asked to say hello to Jordan, so Grover opened the door wide enough for MJ to look up from his card game and say, thanks, man. Grover says in the dock that after closing the door on fight, he thought to himself, I've got a bad feeling about this, implying that he feels the pizza was deliberately tampered with. Not only does fight deny contaminating the pizza to make Jordan ill, he doesn't think Jordan had, food poisoning at all. Not from his pizza, at least. He says there were no other reports of food

poisoning from the pizzas his store delivered that night. And then he says, and I talked about this yesterday, did you get it diagnosed? Did he go to a doctor? All this innuendo on their part. One thing I'm reminded everybody is he was smoking so many cigars. They had windows open. He didn't have a shirt on at around three or four o'clock in the afternoon in Park City. The sun's gone behind that mountain so it gets cold up there. So obviously, you know, he claims that he was the guy and I don't know if there's any proof as to whether or not he was the guy. Another story came out that Jordan, when he got the pizza, spit on it so that no one

else would eat it and that that was a regular thing for him to do. But apparently he was upset that people had gone to dinner without inviting him earlier in the evening. crazy. What a psycho moment. The whole thing is psycho. I mean, the fact that you just said there's this belief that Jordan spit on food so nobody else would eat it. I mean, that's just, that's a little bit of insanity.

It's insanity to make it up and it's insanity if it's true. I wonder if there's a way to prove that this guy, like if there's some sort of old time sheet, you know, from the Pizza Hut, to prove that he was working at that pizza place and that that was the one that was open and made the delivery. It'd be pretty hard to go back that long ago. I mean, we're talking about 22 years ago. You ever have food poisoning? Do you ever have food poisoning? You know what? I'm sure I have. I'll tell you what I have had. I've certainly had enough alcohol to feel the effects of alcohol poisoning.

There have been at least two tequila nights. Tommy that went south for me. And, you know, there's nothing worse than that because it's a whole day of vomiting and dehydration and the whole thing. Yeah. I had food poisoning once in particular, I remember. It was after my first year covering the Redskins in 92, when the season was over, my wife and I, we took a trip to Grand Cayman for five days.

never been there before. Where did you stay? That's where I went on my honeymoon. Well, we stayed at the Holiday Inn where they filmed the bar scene in the firm. Tommy. They were filming the firm when we were there.

No, that's not true. Hold on for a second. Stop. Stop. Can't believe that these two stories have never crossed paths before as long as we've known each other. my wife and I got married in March of 1993.

We went on our honeymoon and stayed at the Hyatt Grand Cayman. Yes, which is where they did most of the filming. When we were there, they were filming the scene at the pool when Holly Hunter, her character, is there down at the pool being seduced or trying to get seduced by, why am I blanking on the actor's name? Any, anyway. I'm sorry? Yeah, Gene Hackman.

That scene. Yeah. You know, it was Gene, it wasn't Holly Hunter's character. It was the Cruz's wife, Gene Triplehorn or whatever her name was, who, by the way, I don't know if she was ever in anything else. We were there. That night, they filmed for like two consecutive nights of. Barani Moon staying at the Hyatt Grand Cayman in March of 1993. And you're telling me you were there at the same time?

Well, I don't know if it's the same time because when I was there... It had to be pretty close. Well, it was pretty close because they were filming the scene where Cruz is, you know, Dean Hackman and Cruz are sitting in an outdoor bar with a couple of girls that Hackman set him up. with. And Cruz shows no interest in the one girl and goes down to the beach. That was filmed at the Holiday Inn where I was staying. Got it. And that's an earlier scene in the movie, too. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So if we weren't there at the same time, we were pretty close. Yeah, I can't imagine that they did multiple trips to the Caymans, although again, I mean, Hackman was in both

scenes. Cruz was not in the scene at the Hyatt. The actor, it was, I'm pretty sure if I recall, it was Hackman. It was the woman who played Cruz's wife. I think her name was Jane or Jean Triplehorn or something like that. She never did anything else, I don't think. And Holly Hunter was, I'm pretty sure there is well in that scene. And she was definitely more well known. I mean, Hunter, I think, really made a name for herself in that movie Broadcast News, which was probably five, six years before that. That was mid to late 80s. Yeah. But that's hysterical. I mean, if we weren't there at the same time, if they weren't

filming both of those things at the same time, they were certainly within weeks, if not, you know, a month or so. Yes. Very close. Well, when we were there, you know, Eric Williams, never he played defensive tackle? Yeah, for the Redskins, yeah. Right. I mean, I was pretty tight with him, and he told me he had a friend who owned a bar,

an American who owned a bar, a restaurant in Grand Cayman, and he recommended, I come by, he's a big, go by, he's a big Redskins fan, mentioned his name and all that. So we did that. We stopped at this place. Guy treated his great. You know, I had a hamburger, big, juicy, lots of meat, hamburger, and that hamburger got me deathly. on top of which we had sun poisoning too.

Oh, God. So I had food poisoning. My wife didn't have it, but we both had sun poisoning. Our trip, it was a five-day trip to Grant Cayman, which got delayed because of snow leaving Baltimore. And then half the time we were there, we were both sick. Well, you know, first of all, you shouldn't have been eating a burger in the Cayman Islands.

You should have been eating, you know, seafood and fish and whatever. But I'm not going to lecture you on that. But, you know, the snow thing is actually very interesting. Because the March superstorm of 1993, one of the biggest winter storms ever of all time, low pressure in terms of the barometric pressure, et cetera, happened when I was on my honeymoon in the Cayman Islands. And you know me with snowstorms,

I'm sitting there following it. In fact, I will tell you right now, and Van Pelt will tell you this the next time, you know, if you ever ask him, I'm basically calling him to get weather updates from my honeymoon. It was so stupid. He's like, you're on your honeymoon. What are you doing? I'm like, well, how much snow, you know, how big is the storm? So maybe we were there sort of at the same time or really close to one another because maybe the snowstorm that delayed you coming out of Baltimore was that superstorm of March.

93, do you remember the month that you went? I think we were closer to the end of February since it was after football season. Okay. That was March, that was like March, I want to say it was March 13th, 1993. It's, it's, anybody that follows like weather like I do, that's one of the biggest storms, East Coast storms ever in history. and it was, you know, it was one of those where they were calling for 30 inches of snow, like two to three feet, and it ended up being more like a foot and a half with a bunch of ice, as it turns out.

So it was still a big storm, but anyway. Now, the other thing, just as a grant came at its side, the other thing that happened to us was, you know, we went into Georgetown one day, the uh the basically the town uh on on grand camman and uh walking around a store and i hear a voice behind me saying so you took a vacation too huh and i turn around and it's terry or the redskins tight out yeah he had come in off a cruise ship that had docked for the day in grand camman and he recognized me so that was pretty bizarre did you did you go in the submarine that they have at grand camels Nah, I don't remember going in a submarine.

They had submarine rides. They literally had a submarine that you could go down in and, you know, look around under the ocean. It was very cool. It was the highlight of the trip for us, the submarine ride. You know, it's so funny. First of all, was it Terry Orr who went to jail for something? Yeah. What did he go to jail for?

Some kind of financial thing. sure what it was. You know, a recent trip, and I say recent, I don't know, it was four or five years ago maybe to the Bahamas. I forget where we were. I think we were in a restaurant, and I look at this dude and he's looking back at me, and it was Lorenzo Alexander. So we ended up chatting for like 20 minutes in the Bahamas.

But who, by the way, truly, in the era of Snyder, I'm not sure there was a nicer red skin than Lorenzo Alexander. Seriously. But back to the food poisoning. Two things. One, I'm sure I've had food poisoning before. Look, growing up when we grew up, I mean, you had to probably, anytime you got the stomach flu, I bet half the time it was food poisoning. Because I don't think that the standards for food prep were the same back then that they were, you know, that they are today. But by far and away, the sickest I've ever been was a bachelor party, not mine, although I was pretty ill for mine, but a bachelor party of actually was my cousin's husband. And I was in the wedding, because she doesn't have any brothers. And I was in the wedding. And we were at, um, we were at a place downtown prior to heading

to where we were going to head for the actual party itself. And it was just tequila shot after tequila shot. And for whatever reason over the years, that is definitely, that is a big problem for me, too much tequila. Tommy, the only thing I remember is the next morning waking up on the kitchen floor of the restaurant. It's like 5 a.m. having absolutely no recollection of how I got there. I don't know why I am telling this story, but that's the sickest I've ever been. It was for a day and a that I was ill after that. And so much to the point where I was legitimately dehydrated and almost needed to go to the hospital.

And I'm sure many of you out there listening have had similar experiences and some of you haven't. And by the way, good on you. But no matter what the situation was or how it happened, if Jordan had been throwing up, I believe that portion of the story. I just don't know what caused it. I think the story is a weird story to begin with

because if Grover were so convinced that it was food poisoning, why wasn't there ever some sort of follow-up investigation? Why wasn't there an attempt to identify what would have been, I don't know, that's a crime. You can't intentionally try to poison somebody. But Jordan's, that game that he had that night, after being physically ill for as long as he was all night all day, is amazing.

because anybody that's ever been sick that way, and almost everybody has, it's much different than a cold, you know, or a sore throat. When you're vomiting and you're, you know, you're basic, you have no energy, none when that thing is over. You're so physically weak. Yeah, you used it all throwing up. Yeah. Your body used all its energy. So the fact that he had that game that night,

is truly one of the great games of all time by an individual player. Absolutely. So netting it all out, Jordan's on the winners list. By the way, in talking about LeBron, I saw that you tweeted out this Doc Rivers statement that LeBron would have been the greatest NFL player of all time at any position he had picked in football. That's ridiculous. Isn't that absurd?

that that's so ridiculous why would he feel the need to say that I mean talk about overcompensating I mean better than Jim Brown at running back better than Reggie White at defensive end Jerry Rice yeah I mean this is absurd

Lawrence Taylor I mean my gosh you know I said this morning when I read that I had forgotten that that he was a good high school football player you know and Urban Meyer apparently he said that he would have been, Urban Meyer, way back in the day when he was recruiting him for Notre Dame, essentially, you know, watched him play football and said, this guy's going to be an eventual NFL

Hall of Famer if he wants to play football. But everybody knew that basketball, you know, was his thing. So I don't, like, I'm not going to debate people talking about, you know, especially Urban Meyer more than Doc Rivers, about him potentially being a great football player, a great football talent. We know that basketball players, you know, if they choose football, end up more times than not being really good football players. But I didn't even know that he was okay with contact. You know, football's different. You got to, you got to be okay with contact. You got to be okay with getting hit. But he did play high school football and he was, had great hands, great feet. That's the thing about basketball players. I talked about this this morning. I know we've talked about

this in the past, but the difference between basketball and football is basketball, you're completely exposed if you lack coordination. You have to be supremely coordinated to play basketball well, and if not, it's very obvious that you can't play, whereas in football, there are positions where you don't have to be tremendously coordinated if you're super fast and super strong, you know, and it doesn't get exposed at certain positions. positions, especially on defense. And LeBron, a lot of basketball players, I mean, Gates is obviously the, and Gonzalez, or really the two in modern era football.

I mean, they're both Hall of Famers that were, you know, they were great college basketball players. Incredible hands, incredible hand-eye coordination. I bet LeBron would have been a hell of a football player. And I know that. And I would probably agree with you. but the best at any position, I mean, that's literally overcompensating. That's saying, that's saying, I don't know why Doc Rivers feels the need to do that.

Right. I don't know if he's got some kind of financial connection to LeBron, who his agent or something like that. But that's just an absurd comment. And it diminishes, it diminishes the fact that he probably would have been a good football player. I mean, that's what you're saying, really. He would have been a good football player. I don't think anyone probably doubts that. Yeah, I mean, when you say it that way, now the conversation turns to sarcasm.

You know, it's like, oh, okay. Have you ever heard of a guy named Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor or Jerry Rice? But LeBron really is, you know, I know these conversations happen all the time, but it is, and you, you really, you really, you really, really tend to dig your heels in on these conversations. Because it's really impossible to sort of compare errors. You know, LeBron James is 6'9 and 270 pounds. And he's fast, and he's agile, and he's quick. And, you know, Michael Jordan, who I consider to be the greatest player of all time, was 6-6-205. You know, and I mean, when we've had these conversations in the past, I've always said to you, if you take the era that I loved, the 80s, you know, into the 90s, too, but the 80s

is really the era that I loved. Carl Malone is the one dude whose body type and his athleticism and physical overpowering athleticism is the one guy you could pluck from 1990 or 1995 and put into 2020 and he wouldn't look any different. Everybody else would look a little bit different. But Kevin, the game today, physicality doesn't matter. It does. You're wrong about that. No, no. It's less relevant now than it was then. I mean, being big and strong is not necessarily an asset in today's basketball. Yes, it is. You're just trying to say, you can separate the great shooters and the distant shooters

from the guys that can't be stopped going to the rim because they're so bad. big, strong, and skilled. My point is, if you're using that as a difference maker, I don't think it's a fair difference maker. Just because you think that evolution is on steroids and everyone's so much bigger and stronger now than they were years ago, I don't think that makes any difference, literally, in the style of the game and at the outcome of players. Okay, let me, let me go to another,

Then I'll debate you on this. Today's players are more skilled than yesterday's players. Forget about the athleticism. Forget about the training, the diet, and the evolution, the physical evolution of their bodies. They're more skilled than in the past. And by the way, there were super skilled players in the past, but there are more players with more skills today.

If the most important skill is shooting the ball, yes. You know what? It's not just shooting the ball. It's handling the ball. I mean, I understand what Pete Marevich was. I know what Isaiah Thomas was, and I know a lot of those players and their skills would totally translate, and there's more skill that would translate 25, 30, 35 years later than physical athleticism. I understand that. But I've given you the thing that's upset you in the past, but I've watched these 1960s games, you know, on NBA TV before. I'm sorry. In watching Jerry West, he just doesn't have anywhere near the skill level that the players of today.

He was a bad ball handler with his offhand compared to today's players, in part because he didn't really have to use it that much because there wasn't great defense. The defense was played at a distance. I've watched some of these games from the 60s. I'm not saying that Wilton and Russell and that Coosie wasn't a wizard. West is really the one that sticks out to me, Tommy, more than anyone else, because West is considered a top 15 player of all time, top 20 worst case. And I've watched some of those, you know, the way they aired on ABC in the 60s championship games.

And I'm like, my God, he wouldn't be able to beat anybody off the dribble in today's game. I would disagree with you. I know you would. I would absolutely disagree with you about that. I'm looking for it right now because Jerry West's vertical leaf was legendary. It was higher than a number of players playing today. Okay, well, now you're getting into the athletic. I was focused on the skill part of our conversation.

Jerry West, I know, was a phenomenal score, and you can see that he can shoot and that he can get to spots and make shots and get buckets. I'm telling you, in today's game with his skill level from back then, I think he would have had the ball ripped from him consistently. Do you know that Jerry West in a playoff series against the Baltimore Bullets? How many do you average? Average 46.3 points per game.

I know. Yeah. I don't think you could do it today. I don't think there's any chance against a good defendant, a decent defender in the NBA that he could do it today. I don't think you could do it at the college level today. But anyway. Okay, I can't find it. Let me tell everybody real quickly about Roman.

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So Tommy, there's this story that came out yesterday that I was completely unfamiliar with. It was another one of these Michael Jordan-related stories in the the wake of, you know, the last dance. This one titled Michael Jordan really wanted to beat one team in college more than any other, and that team was Maryland. It was written by Dave on Grady. Dave's written a lot about Maryland sports over the years, and he interviewed Buzz Peterson, Buzz Peterson and several others for this story. Buzz Peterson, for those that don't know, was Michael Jordan's best friend at the University of North Carolina. They were teammates for Dean. Smith in Chapel Hill on those Carolina teams. Buzz Peterson himself was a highly recruited player

out of high school. And he told the story that the team that really Jordan had it out for, more than any other at Carolina, was Maryland, not Duke. He said he was, and one of the reasons he says is that initially when he was in high school, he was interested in Maryland. Maryland was the one that he would talk about. That was the school that he actually had a strong interest in attending, but Lefty-Drasel, the coach at the time, had one scholarship left. And he basically said to Michael Jordan, Buzz Peterson himself, and Jeff Adkins, who was a very highly recruited player out of Martinsville, Virginia,

he lefty basically went to all three of them and said I've got one scholarship left the first one to respond that he wants it gets it and so Jeff Adkins was the first one to respond in part because Jordan according to Buzz Peterson was sort of turned off by Lefty's ultimatum now lefty was interviewed for this story as well and lefty says that he doesn't deny it He doesn't remember it specifically, but he said he did things that way back then. I'm looking for the exact quote from Lefty. Anyway, I'll paraphrase it. Lefty essentially said that sounds like something that I would have done. The other reason Jordan had it out for Maryland is that Adrian Branch and Jordan had played

in an All-Star game in Wichita, Kansas, either to. together against each other. And Jordan had a great game, but Branch got a co-MvP of the game with Jordan. And Jordan didn't like that. And one of the things we've learned from the last five weeks, Jordan had 30 points in the game. Branch had 24, and they were voted co-MvPs of the game. And Jordan didn't like that. Adrian Branch was a D'Amatha kid, played at Maryland, had a great career at Maryland. And by the way, was on championship Laker teams. You know, one of the things about this, I'm digressing here for just a quick moment, there's several shots during the last stance of Keith Booth. You remember Keith Booth, played for Maryland, and he's always,

he's always in civilian clothes. He was the, in 97, was the last first round pick of the Bulls, so he was a big part of that night. He wasn't a big part of the 98 team, but you saw many shots of him. Well, Adrian Branch was, I think, the last pick of the first round by the Lakers and ended up winning a ring with the Lakers, if not two. He may have won two rings with the Lakers. But anyway, I think he was just one. But anyway, Jordan had it out for Branch after that. You know, when Jordan didn't get the MVP by himself, Peterson said he was hot about that. Michael was always looking for something to get an edge to get motivated about. He never had to get motivated to play Maryland.

If I was in a room with him and I'd say, Wichita, that's where that high school All-Star game was, he knew exactly what I was talking about. Even more than Duke, Maryland is who he really wanted to go after and to go up against Branch in particular. Jordan's record in three years against Maryland was five and one. The one game that Maryland won, let me just say that that era, there were some big games against Carolina, especially in 83 and 84, Jordan's sophomore and junior years. They replayed one of them last weekend on ESPN, the Bias versus Jordan Showdown at Cole Fieldhouse.

They actually re-aired that game on ESPN last weekend. But anyway, in Jordan, Carolina, I think, was ranked one, and Maryland was ranked like seventh. And I was at that game. That's the first Jordan cuff dunk, you know, rock the boat dunk, which happened to Cole Fieldhouse. But the, so he went five and one. The one game they won Maryland won in 1983 at Cole 106 to 94. That was the year, you may not remember this, but the ACC was testing the three-point shot. And I mean, God, the line, the actual three-point line went through the top of the key.

It was so short. But that was the year that NC State won the national championship and beat Virginia in the ACC finals and then again in the elite eight in Atlanta. And you'll see the ACC games back there with this ridiculously short three-point line. Anyway, Maryland won that game. A lot of the other games were super close. You know, I think you remember this. But for those that don't remember, North Carolina was basically everybody's rival in ACC basketball in the 80s and 90s.

Before Duke became Duke, Carolina was Duke. And Carolina was the team that everybody shot for. And Carolina Duke was a big rivalry. But Maryland had a big rivalry with North Carolina as well. And they had legendary games against one another. And it was a legendary coaching matchup, left you dress. and Dean Smith. Oh, yeah.

But Dean always got the better of it. I mean, always. I mean, I remember specifically in Carmichael, they had a big lead with a minute to go, blew it lost by one, you know, against Jordan's team. But the game that is legendary in Maryland circles was a loss at Carmichael in Chapel Hill against Jordan's Carolina teams. So one of the five wins for North Carolina. Maryland's down one with 10 seconds to go, and lefty puts his son Chuck Dressel into the game.

I think you know this story. Chuck did not, was at the end of the bench. He was lefty son. Chuck was a really good high school basketball player at Springbrook in Montgomery County. But Chuck was not a good college basketball player. He was on the team because he was lefty son, and he played a little bit here and there. But for the most part, it was, you know, it was end of bench minutes. He wasn't going to play against North Carolina. and Lefty put Chuck into the game at the end of the game and called the play for his son to take the last shot to beat Carolina. And Chuck got free on the baseline, and he's driving for a layup, a game-winning layup, and out of nowhere comes Jordan,

and he swats it away as the horn sounds. And afterwards, you know, lefty's asked about, you know, Lefty, why did you put Chuck into the game? He said, well, he's my son. You know, I put my son in the game. We had a chance for my son to beat North Carolina. And that's one of those five wins for Jordan against Maryland during those three years that he played against Maryland. And, you know, people always talk about the Bias versus Jordan matchup.

Bias, you know, played Jordan for two years because Bias stayed all four years. Jordan only stayed three, and Bias was a year younger. So they matched up four times during their career. And then bias, you know, the second, the first two, bias was a freshman, and bias was very raw as a freshman. His sophomore year as he got better, you know, he still wasn't the bias you saw as a junior or a senior when he was the two-time ACC player of the year and the national player of the year. Jordan never faced the best of bias. He didn't, Jordan was gone. You know, after his junior year, which was bias's sophomore year. bias as a junior and a senior was unstoppable as a college player. At the end of his sophomore year, when they won the ACC tournament, he was pretty much

unstoppable. That was a matchup that we were anticipating in 1984, which was Jordan's final year, was a potential Maryland-North Carolina ACC final, but Duke upset North Carolina, and Maryland ended up beating Duke in lefties first and only. you know, ACC tournament title. But I thought that was interesting. I had never heard that story, that Jordan A, had an interest in Maryland, but Lefty basically put it on the table with Buzz Peterson, Jeff Adkins, and Michael Jordan, and said, first

one to respond, yes, gets the scholarship. And that Jordan had it out for Maryland more than any other school that he played in the ACC. You know, Jeff Adkins was a good, you know, he was a good college basketball player, but, you know, And he started, I would say he started two of his four years, maybe three. But he was on good teams with Branch and Bias and Ben Coleman and Keith Gatlin and Herman Veal. And Jeff Baxter, he was on good teams. He was very much a role player on those teams.

And Buzz Peterson was a good college player at Carolina. Obviously none of them turned in to Jordan. But I thought that, yeah. Two players that Maryland nearly got could have changed. the course of history for basketball at the school. Michael Jordan and? And Moses Malone. Oh, and Moses Malone. Yeah, of course. Of course.

The other one. Well, still to this day when Lefty talks about Moses, if you didn't know, you would think Moses actually went to Maryland and played for him. Because he'll always say, well, when I had Moses, well, he had Moses for one day of classes. Yeah, that was it. Yeah, and then, you know, and he told us this. You know, he was the one that advised him to take the deal with the Utah stars of the ABA. But the only thing lefty advised is tell him you want a million dollars a year,

because they were only offering like $300,000 or whatever it was. And then Lefty, I think, connected him with the agent and the rest is history. That is really the, that's one of the great what-ifs in Maryland. sports history, if not college basketball history, is if Moses had come to Maryland and played, you know, he would have been the best, he would have been a dominant, dominant center in college basketball at a time when centers were truly a factor in the sport. Yes. You know, and Lefty never got that final four, but he, I feel pretty confident that with Moses and, you know, Moses would have gotten there with John Lucas and Brad Davis and Mo Howard, they would have

gotten to at least one final four. I think so. Yeah, and maybe a national championship. Two more things before we run for the day. First of all, this Cody Latimer story. The Redskins signed Cody Latimer as a free agent during free agency, and Latimer appeared in a Colorado court yesterday on multiple felony charges stemming from an incident early Saturday morning.

The incident, according to News 9 in Denver, Latimer, according to the police report, Latimer and another card player. There was a poker game going on. Got into a heated argument during this poker game at the home of Roderick English, who told police that Latimer is his best friend. English said he separated the two men in an argument and ordered everybody to leave his apartment. According to the police report, there were about seven or eight people in the apartment. English then told police that both he and Latimer had been drinking and that Latimer returned. to English's apartment 30 minutes after leaving.

He was agitated, angry. He blamed English for the initial confrontation during the poker game. At that point, English told police that Latimer pulled out a handgun from his hoodie, waved it around, not directly at English or his girlfriend, but according to the police report, Latimer said that he was going to kill everybody. The situation de-escalated when Latimer emptied the magazine and cleared the chamber of his gun, but the piece didn't last long as Latimer later fired two shots near English, who responded by pinning Latimer against the wall.

Latimer retaliated by hitting English on the top of his head with a gun. English fell but continued to hold Latimer and again pinned him up against the wall. The fight ended after Latimer told English to calm down. So Latimer is telling his supposed best friend to calm down after he's already fired two shots near him. Now, here's the interesting twist to the story. Latimer's attorney, Harvey Steinberg, told the court yesterday that he had been contacted by law enforcement concerning an investigation of a sexual assault of Latimer's four-year-old son that was allegedly perpetrated by one of the individuals at the poker game.

Steinberg told the court that the allegations concerning the shooting incident occurred at the same time and location as the alleged sexual assault. Latimer just in terms of history has had a bit of a history with a previous incident in May of 2016 where he was arrested for an outstanding traffic ticket while police were investigating a complaint that he had that he was a victim of domestic violence, at the hands of his girlfriend. Now, apparently he's also suffered at times from depression and other sort of mental illness. Now, this story continues to sort of get added to

in terms of his recent history. Why did the Redskins sign him? He doesn't fit the Ron Rivera, culture change him, it does he? Not really. No. No, he doesn't. Here's something that I think

a lot of people knew, but we've been reaffirmed that between this and the Quentin Dunbar story is that poker causes a lot of grief between athletes. I mean, the whole Gilbert thing started because of card playing.

I mean, you know, it's amazing. How many of these things start because athletes are playing cards with each other. And Jordan, that's all he did. Remind me to tell you about the Gilbert Arena story. I don't know if you read that. Did you read that yesterday about him? Winning $300,000 in a lottery? No. All right. I'll tell you about it in a moment. Here's the... Because all that started, I mean, you know, both of these incidents, Latimer and the Quentin Dunbar case. Yeah, poker. All are related to car playing. And drinking and late

nights. Yeah. You know, that all sort of goes together. Um, I, uh, I, I, I, look, I, this, this part of the story where his four-year-old son may have been sexually assaulted at this thing and perhaps, you know, uh, by extension, caused his reaction. I mean, that's essentially what the implication is from the attorney. Um, I mean, I think all of us know that, you know, if your child was sexually assaulted by somebody, you know, who the hell knows what you're capable of doing, that would be among the worst possible things to be, uh, to have happen, you know, and so, I mean, you know, that reaction, you didn't kill anybody and he didn't hurt anybody except for the contusion on the top of his friend's head. But, you know, that part of the story, we still need to see how that part of the story plays out. I mean, there could have been

justification for his reaction. With that said, this is a guy with a little bit of a checkered history and maybe even, you know, a history that includes some depression and suicide thoughts. There's a video out there with him being interviewed a few years ago by a Denver, I think, preacher. And, you know, I don't know how much due diligence the Redskins did. with him. I just, I think the Redskins have a culture to change. And I don't know if you can just cut him now based on this information. You sort of have to let it play out a little bit and presume innocence because, you know, if you did release him right now and it came out that his four-year-old, he was reacting to something that happened to his four-year-old son that was terrible,

you know, you'd look pretty bad for cutting him. You know, I just, like, I look at this organization like, Jesus Christ, can anything ever be easy? Like, it's great that they got rid of Quentin Dunbar in time if Quentin Dunbar is guilty of this crime. And who knows, apparently there are five people that will swear that Quentin Dunbar had nothing to do with it. You know, what we might be finding out in that case is that Quinn Dunbar's best friends didn't know that you could actually go to jail for lying about an incident.

Who knows? But, you know, Cody Latimer wasn't going to be a big-time, you know, player on this team, I don't think. He hasn't been anywhere else. If there was any knowledge that there was some checkered history, why even take the chance? It wasn't a lot of money, I get it. But it's sort of a tough position they're in here, don't you think? Would you cut them out right? Well, they don't have to do anything now.

I guess they don't. I mean, so, you know, they could just let this thing unfold, and when comes time, they can make their decision. There's nothing they have to do now. I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't make them look good, but, you know, in the scheme of things, I doubt most Redskins fans even knew he was on the team. You know, I think most Redskins, I think, you know,

the Redskins fans that listen to this podcast and other Redskins' podcasts, and I think everybody knows who Cody Latimer is in that world, but I think your run-of-the-mill, you know, football fan who, you know, is a Redskins fan, may not have been paying attention to that signing that much. I mean, Cody Latimer's best season was last year when he caught 24 balls in New York for the Giants. I mean, that's it. He's got six career touchdown catches in six seasons. This wasn't a guy. I don't think they were expecting to come in and be a star. I mean, I don't know that there was a guarantee that Cody Latimer was going to make the team. I think, you know, it's one of those situations. You've got a culture change.

And now you're put into this position where you probably prefer to just move on from him because, as you would say, the juice ain't worth the squeezing, regardless of whether or not he's guilty, but you've got to be careful in a situation like this because if you cut him loose and he's completely innocent and even more so, he was totally justified in many ways based on on normal, you know, people's thoughts in reacting the way he reacted, maybe not with the gun. But, you know, then you end up looking bad. Like you bailed on somebody that was completely innocent, worse. You bailed on somebody whose son was assaulted.

I don't know. It's just never, it's everywhere around the league. It's not just them. Yeah, although, I mean, it's remarkable. things have been pretty quiet for a while, then all of a sudden they just flew up. Everybody's getting arrested. Dunbar, Baker, Ed Oliver, Latimer. Like I said on Twitter, cops are arrested a lot of innocent NFL players. Last subject real quickly. Off of the last dance, and we can maybe do this in greater detail on Thursday,

especially if we don't have a lot to talk about. I did a segment today on radio. Give me your best idea for a DC sports documentary, a lengthy, you know, 10-parter. It doesn't have to be 10-parts, but more than a 30-for-30. Give me your best idea for a DC sports topic for a documentary. Okay.

Want me to give you my number one without hesitation? Go ahead. The rise and fall of RG3 in D.C. That's 10 parts. That is the build-up to trading for him, the build-up to drafting him, the first mini-camp where you and I were both there, and he was letting the planes pass, which impressed the hell out of you.

The shock and awe, I mean, the New Orleans shock and awe game is one episode. You know, the Baltimore injury in the Cleveland game that followed it is another episode. The Seattle game could be two episodes. You know, what happened, you know, after the injury and in the off season of 2013 is multiple episodes. The all-in for week one. And then throughout the 2013 season, this is a 10-part documentary. The meteoric rise of Robert Griffin III in Washington and then the immediate fall of Griffin in Washington would not only be interesting to Redskin fans, and be, by the way, trust me, on this piece. people, very revealing. There are so many stories you've never heard. I mean, and it would have,

I mean, I would be interested if everybody, you know, told the truth. And if everybody revealed all of the stories that people like you and I have heard for years behind the scenes from various people that sometimes could have been exaggerated and they could have even been false for all we know. But that would be interesting to not just Redskin fans. That would be interesting to sports fans. That would be a documentary that would get a lot of run, I think, because that year he had in 2012 was amazing, and it caught the sports world, you know, was paying attention, you know.

And I think that would be a phenomenal documentary. Look, I don't think it would be a 10-parter. that that's a bit much. I think it's a documentary. It's going to wind up getting made by somebody, but I don't think it would be a ten-parter. There's one that's near and dear to my heart that I know most people aren't going to be interested in, but I think the return of baseball to Washington, D.C. From basically it's a 10-year process, that includes the story of the Boston Red Sox as well. I think that would be an interesting 10-part documentary. But the one I think that would be riveting that the RG3 one would be a part of

is Dan Snyder. It's the most hated owner in pro football. Yeah, somebody called in with that, and I would agree with that. And the RG-3 thing would be part of it. But the RG-3 thing is a lengthy documentary. It might not be 10-parts, but it is not a 30-for-30, which is what I used to joke about. It's much more than a 30-for-30.

But yeah, you're right. I mean, we've talked about this many times, but it is really hard to imagine what the Redskins are in 2020 compared to what they were in 1999 when he bought the team. Yeah, yeah. I mean, starting from the process with Cook dying and the whole process for buying the team and the competition. I mean, look at the characters.

Steve Furrier, Joe, Gibbs. I mean, Marty Schottnheimer, Mike Shanahan, Vinny Serrato, Fred Drasner, and some of his other big time, you know, Zuckerman, some of his other big investors originally. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

I mean, that would be in a series. Well, you know, the whole... No one's ever done a book about Snyder. That whole, why didn't Jack Kent Cook leave the team to his son is so interesting. And there's so much there.

I actually, one of my ideas, and this isn't probably a lengthy documentary, also dealt with baseball. And it's, you may correct me here, because I don't know the history with all of the other teams like you do. But it is close to unprecedented, right, that a major market lost two baseball teams in 10 years? I would say so. I would say so. I'm trying to think what else would come to mind. I mean, Washington lost the senators in 61 and then the senators in 71, the expansion senators.

This was a major market, not New York, not Chicago, not L.A. And I know D.C. is a much different city today than it was in the 1960s in many different ways. But they lost two baseball teams in a decade. And, you know, I think there would be some really interesting aspects to that. that too, because we know that the attendance in particular was terrible, especially after the 68 riots, you know, and people avoiding, you know, people from the suburbs in particular, avoiding going to games, and the senators weren't dead last in attendance, and I looked this up, but in their final season, they were next, or third to last in attendance. You know, they averaged less

than 10,000 fans per game in 1971. But that would be interesting to me. The, the, you know, rise of Georgetown as a basketball program and more than that as an iconic sports brand in America, I think would be a really interesting documentary. You know, John Thompson didn't build Georgetown the moment he recruited Patrick Ewing. They were already had become a big time program. You know, it's really amazing to look at John Thompson's career and understand that his first year was 1972-73 at Georgetown, but he started going to the tournament long before Patrick Ewing got there. They were in an elite eight game in 1980, two years before Patrick got there. You know, so in all of the stories of the Georgetown program, this small Catholic university in Washington, D.C., becoming the biggest seller of college sports

apparel in America. You know, they sold more apparel Georgetown basketball did than any football school in America for a period of time there. I think that would be an interesting documentary. You know what else would be? What? I'm certain. No, I don't want to do that,

because somebody's probably already done this. The Big East. Well, yeah, that was done. There was a documentary in the Big East. Yeah, it had to be. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'll tell you what, you know what else would be a good documentary?

The sports fix. That would be a good documentary. I actually did have another one that I think would be great for D.C. sports fans would be sort of, you know, Washington's sort of the home of the quarterback controversy. I know other towns have had it, but God, we've had a lot of them. And it would start with Sonny and Billy, and it would move its way to, you know, the Schrader and the Doug Williams controversy, and then the Ruffalo. Ripin and the Humphries and, you know, would go on and on.

And I think that would be a cool, it's probably more of like a 30 for 30, or, you know, a one-hour, you know, D.C. documentary. I enjoyed, I didn't ask you, I enjoyed the PG County basketball documentary, the Durant thing Friday night. I thought it was good. I think there's a bigger documentary just about the history of basketball in D.C. But anyway. All right.

Anything else? That's all I got, boss. All right. I'll talk to you on Thursday. Thanks. Okay. All right, that's it for the day. Don't forget, rate us, review us, especially on Apple,

if that's the way you're listening to this podcast. Write up a just a quick review, rate us as high as you can rate us. Subscribe. That helps too. And don't forget, especially if you are up early, I'm on radio 6 to 9 a.m. on the Team 980. You can listen also on the Team 980.com. All right, thanks.

Enjoy the day back tomorrow.