The Kevin Sheehan Show - Thom Taken By 4th and 1

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Kevin and Thom today with Thom once again singing the praises of Jayden Daniels. Thom was taken with Daniels' 4th and 1 conversion in New Orleans. Plenty more on the close call against the Saints before the guys started previewing Sunday's game in Philadelphia. Kevin believes this game will reveal a lot about Washington's rest-of-year results. The boys talked "New Orleans" movies, Sam Howell, and the 30 For 30 on the 80's New York Jets' pass rush called "The New York Sack Exchange".   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, is Window Nation.

Give him a call 86690 Nation or head to Window Nation. If you need new windows. Tommy wrote a really good column about his new love, Jaden Daniels. You have such a crush on Jayden. A bigger one than I have. I'm so smitten. I really am. Yeah, you loved him on Sunday.

And one of the, that would have been a truly awful loss. That would have been bad. Yes. Yes. But in his own way, he was determined not to let his team lose, even putting himself in harm's way by jumping in the air for first down. I was infatuated with that play, you know, when he went in the fourth quarter. Yeah, it's fourth and one.

It was a huge play. Yeah. Yeah. And he jumped in the air for it because at that point, one yard was hard to get by if they then went the traditional way, you know. They weren't getting many yards. So, look, the Saints coach thought enough of it to point it out in his post-game press conference. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to ignore our quarterback these days, you know, from the other side line.

I think Taran Matthews said something about him as well. It seems like everybody is, you know, as smitten as you are with him. And now, by the way, some of that will lead to the opportunities they may have in free agency. Seriously. I mean, they are a much more attractive. organization and then on, you know, they're ascending because of the quarterback. That's the perception anyway. I would agree.

I would agree that that is definitely an asset, particularly for skill players that they'll be looking at in terms of free agency and coming to Washington, a chance to play with Jane Daniels. Now, you know, I think that for the first time this year, and I talked about it on the podcast, the last couple of shows. That was a win that was not a feel-good win. I know how you feel about Jaden and you know I feel the same way. And I think without them on Sunday, they would have had no chance.

And I think Terry fits into that category on Sunday as well. But that was the first of their nine wins that didn't leave you feeling super optimistic. I mean, I think I said on yesterday's show that it's been a while since, you know, our fan base had an issue with a win, but they did. You know, I think people felt differently about this one than the eight that preceded it, and it felt almost like, uh-oh, what's going on here. You know, over the last several years, you would have said, wow, they actually won that game. I can't believe it.

And the truth is, every NFL team, including really good teams, have, you know, an ugly win. or two on their schedule when it's all said and done. The Eagles barely beat the Panthers, you know, a week and a half ago. About a month and a half ago, they barely beat Jacksonville, where they blew a big lead and almost lost at the end. So these things just happen in the NFL. I don't know that it's a predictor of things to come, although they are an injured, they're becoming an injured team, which is a bit concerning.

Yes. look, I think part of it, I think you're right, and that's always amusing, you know, that will always remind me of the time when Jim Zorn beat the Lions, it was. Yeah. And you asked him if he was worried about his job in our interview with him. Yeah. After a win, and he looked at you like you had two heads. He was not happy.

Yeah. So, yeah, there's some wins that you don't feel good. good about. I think part of what's going on too is I think people know who they're going to play next week. I think they know the Eagles are coming. And look, a division game, anything is possible. I'm not ruling out that the commanders could somehow win, but I think everybody knows what will happen if that commander's team shows up on Sunday to play the Eagles. I think this is a really important game for this season. It's not going to be anything that portends something about their future.

But I talked a couple of weeks ago with you on the show that the one box that needs to be checked with our young quarterback is we need to see whether or not he can deliver in a big time moment, in a big time game. Now, the biggest game they'll have, hopefully, will be a playoff game or a game to get into the playoffs. And that's not Sunday's game necessarily. But they have not beaten a team this year with a winning record. And every winning record team that they've played, they haven't, well, let me just mention, if I haven't done it already in the previous shows, they haven't played many teams with winning records. The only teams they've played with winning records are the teams they've lost to. The Buccaneers, the Ravens, the Steelers, and the Eagles,

the Cowboys are the one team with a losing record that they lost to. But every team they've beaten has a losing record, and most of the teams they've played have had a losing record. It's the nature of just how their schedule broke. It isn't necessarily only tied to playing a fourth-place schedule. It's just how it played out this year. And I think that Sunday is a game in which they need to play well. It's not that they need to win it, but we have to leave that game like we left the game against Pittsburgh.

Or Baltimore. Baltimore, the first go-round. I think that was their best performance in a loss. I think you're right. And I do. And Brian Robinson, Jr. didn't play in the game, but they were right there. They went toe to toe with the Ravens. You know, they had a legitimate, in Baltimore.

They had a legitimate shot. I think the Pittsburgh game was a game. Look, they had a 10-point lead in the second half against the Steelers and ended up losing that game. It felt like a lost opportunity. You know, I remember in the moment saying I didn't feel like it was a bad loss. It just was a missed opportunity. But Sunday, they have played, since they played the, Eagles the last time, they've played the Cowboys, the Titans, and the Saints with a

bye week in between. They have not faced stiff competition now in a month. And so it would be a little bit of a tell on what they're going to be the following week against Atlanta, which could be a very important game, the finale against the Cowboys on the road. And then if they get there a playoff game, I'd like to see this be a bit of an idea. identity center for the rest of the year, that we're not just going to be a team that limps in with a 10th win against the Cowboys in the season finale, not having beaten a good team all season. I think Sunday's important because of that. You're asking a lot, you know. Why? Because you don't think they're capable of it?

Not this banged up unit, no. But this is where the quarterback? If he is who we think he is, and by the way, he is that, I feel confident, and I think you do now as well, he needs to kind of strap it to his back a little bit. If they're without Ertz on Sunday, that means no Ertz, no Echler, no Noah Brown. Now, we could see KJ Osborne make his debut on Sunday. Well, actually, I think that could be a critical addition. He is capable of playing at a pretty, you know,

decent level. Different kind of receiver than Noah Brown, but a guy that had made a shitload of place when he was in Minnesota for teams that were competitive. Meanwhile, Luke McCaffrey sits on the sideline count in balls to make sure they have a good supply of footballs. Lowest snap count of the year by far for him. That was really surprising to me. Yes. Yeah. I don't. I didn't expect that. I don't know why. Like I said before, I guess I had expectations based on the bloodline as much as anything. I just figured that he would be a valuable contributor, not a star, but at some point a valuable contributor. Well, he's a rookie. I mean, you've got to give it some time.

I mean, I just thought that there were moments where it looked like he would be a contributor and maybe a meaningful one this season. I still like what he does, and I think that they believe that he's going to be a part of what they're doing. But they're kind of relying on vets right now. They got a rookie quarterback, and they're relying on veteran players. They brought James and Crowder off injured reserve and played him, you know, 28, 29 percent of the snaps on Sunday. He's the one that ultimately took a lot of the snaps from McCaffrey. Yes. I just think you're asking too much of the kid to carry them because he carried him last week.

And for two weeks in a row against a much tougher opponent, I think it's too big an ask. Well, this is round two against a team that played awfully well and confused the hell out of him. That was the game more than any other. that he looked confused, and they have an excellent defense with a phenomenal and borderline legendary defensive coordinator. And so you get a second opportunity with a whole week to prepare

rather than four days, playing them in your park. I don't know what that crowd's going to look like on Sunday. By the way, let me just give everybody a heads up on the extended forecast. Sunny, but very cold. Sunday. Temperatures in the upper 20s to around 30 degrees. That's not good for Al-Qaeda. This will be the coldest game by far of his career. And so this is a moment from that standpoint to see how he handles December big-time football in conditions. Now, it's not going to be windy.

It's not going to be cloudy or snowy or rainy, but it's going to be pretty cold. on Sunday. You know, they need to get him one of those George Costan, Kornetka, Kostk, for the sidelines. He'll be bundled up on the sideline. But when he's in the game, this is a big one Sunday. They got through the near debacle on Sunday. And thank God, because you can put it behind you,

and we won't even remember Sunday if they're able to play really well. They're beat Philly or... I don't think it's a big game. I do. I mean, they can lose this game and make the playoff. Yes, they can. Which is really all anyone wants. Yes.

It's not about necessarily winning the game. I'm not in for moral victories here, but I think we've got to feel really good coming out of it. Look, they're playing the best team in football right now. You could certainly make the case. that the Philadelphia Eagles right now are the single best team in the NFL. I would argue the bills, would they? But it's a close argument.

The reason I would say Philadelphia is right there is that Philadelphia's defense is so much better than Buffalo's defense. Yeah. Philadelphia's defense right now might be the best in the NFL. I mean, Buffalo just gave up 42 and 44 points in two consecutive weeks. And they're brilliant outscoring. the last opponent, Detroit. But this is, you're right, they don't have to win this game.

Thank God, because if they had lost in New Orleans, it wouldn't have been mathematically must win, but it would have felt like you really needed it. I just want to see, I want to see number five rise to the occasion in a big, big game where, by the way, you win this game and now you're in position where one more does it, either against the Falcons or the Cowboys.

That does it. You're in at that point. And, yeah, the Falcons game is looming very large. But if you watched Atlanta right now, the last night, right now that team is a mess. They won against the Raiders. My boy is struggling. He last, you know, the interesting thing is they won the game last night. and I thought by far that was the worst he's looked and much worse than he looked during the four-game losing skid.

I mean, he threw for 344 last week against Minnesota and kept a minute. That was a 21-21 game in the fourth quarter. They took the ball out of his hands last night and limped to the finish line. Now, it's a week-to-week league. We'll see what happens. We might see Michael Pennix when Atlanta comes here,

which I think we'll find. out today or tomorrow if that game's going to be Sunday night or Saturday night. I'm guessing Saturday night, but it wouldn't surprise me if it gets flex to Sunday night. It's also possible it could be a Saturday afternoon game as well. But that game looms large, for sure. Normally I would be going to that game and I'd be going to the Eagles game on Sunday. But visioned? But yeah, I found that to compose a story in a press box under those conditions, I don't think I can do it the way things are now.

Well, I don't want you to do it. I want you to be comfortable. You've earned the right to be comfortable. Yeah, but I mean, I like... I know you do. Did you see the Press Box location Sunday in the Superdome? How many games have you seen from the Superdome? Actually, I covered a national championship game there once.

Okay. And I covered a Redskins game during Marty's year there. I remember that. They crush the Saints. What national championship game? Are you talking basketball? No, no, no. No, Michael Vic.

Florida State. Yeah, Florida State, Virginia Tech. That's the first time I was in New Orleans. Oh, baby. I almost spontaneously combust. Oh, that was your first trip to New Orleans? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. God, I said to myself, if I have been here when I was 25, I never would have lived in 30. I went to a Mardi Gras when I was in college, and the one thing I remember about it, I was ridiculously sick. I had strep throat, I had a fever, so it was miserable. That was my second trip to New Orleans because I had been there once before.

I think it was like the summer before. But I do remember how completely, incredibly sort of mayhem oriented. was for that. But I, that was, I love New Orleans. I had, I had a client in New Orleans, Winn-Dixie, Win Dixie supermarkets, and Winn-Dixie had a big New Orleans division, and they were my client and the company that I was a part of. This would have been early 90s, early to mid-90s. And so I was down there, you know, three or four times a year. I do think, like Vegas, it's like a three-dayer tops, maybe even a 48-hour tops. But, oh, such incredible entertainment and food. After that game, at the beginning of the year, I always used to

look at the calendar and figure out, what story can I convince the paper to do to send me to New Orleans? Yeah. You know, because always the best part was always going on someone else's dime. That was always the best part. Of course it was for you. Not having to pay for it. And I was usually successful creating something, you know, getting there. But, yeah, I love that sound. What's the best New Orleans movie ever?

And the only reason I bring that up is recently that movie Double Jeopardy. Have you ever seen Double Jeopardy? No, I am. With Ashley Judd and, and, you know, what's his face? Tommy Lee Jones. Tommy Lee Jones. No, no, no. Tommy Lee Jones, Ashley Judd, you've never seen Double Jeopardy?

No. Okay. Well, anyway, it ends in New Orleans with the last like 30 minutes in New Orleans. And it's, uh, is there a really good, what'd you say? I'll give you two New Orleans movies right off the bat. I mean, everyone knows about the Big Easy, the one with David Quaid, which was pretty good, you know, and Ellen Barkin. Yep. But here's one from the 60s called The Cincinnati Kid with Steve McQueen about a card player.

You'd love it. Edward T. Robinson and Steve McQueen about playing cards. I know a little, I certainly know the movie or heard of it, but I've never seen it. Well, it takes place entirely in New Orleans. It's great. Another one is the best Charles Bronson movie ever made, hard times. Yeah. Where he's a street fighter.

I think I know that movie. I think I know that movie. with James Coburn. Those are probably my two favorite New Orleans movies. The Pelican Brief was a New Orleans movie for a big part of it. That's great. And what am I thinking of? What other movie am I thinking of?

Well, JFK had a big New Orleans part as well. Yeah, New Orleans is such a great town. But what started this was that I mean I talked to C.J. Who was there obviously with the broadcast team with Bram and London calling the game. And I saw a few of our beat reporters tweeting out pictures.

My God, they were like on the moon watching the game. I mean, I wouldn't have been able to see the field from that location. I would have strictly been watching it off the monitor. That was a, CJ said it was a ridiculously high spot for an NFL press box. Like they were way up there. And apparently the Superdome's highest reaches have some of the steepest seating. I haven't been to a game in the Superdome since I covered a final four.

We did a couple of years. You didn't do these with me. We were doing the show together. But remember Chuck sent me down to do a couple of Final Four radio. rose. I did one in New Orleans. I did one in Atlanta. Of course, you did the Super Bowl in New Orleans. I did not do that one with you. The 49ers Raven Super Bowl. That was a good Super Bowl. So I think Sunday is an important game because in some ways, the way it ended Sunday, the fact that they haven't beaten a good team yet. The fact that they haven't played competitively against a really good

team since the last time they faced the Eagles, and that game was a bit of a mess. You know, four days to prepare. Vic Fangio, Eagles playing well. You get a full week here. They're coming to your place. By the way, the line, guess what the point spread is? I never do this with you, but I'm just curious as to what you think the point spread should be for the game. I'm going to say the Eagles by four and a half. There are three-point favorite right now at my book. I'm looking at it right now. So it was three and a half.

It's down to three. No, it wasn't off that much. I mean, I think three, I would have guessed that it would have been where it was, where it came out at three and a half. The fact that it's down to three, you're going to get, I believe, a lot of public action on Philadelphia this week, especially recent impressions. They destroyed Pittsburgh.

Washington held on for dear life against a bad team in New Orleans. I give Washington a chance Sunday, a real chance. And I'm concerned about Philly's defense, but at least it matches up to our strength, even though it could be compromised. I'd love to have Zach Ertz in that game. And then defensively, man, they got to stop. I mean, what Spencer Rattler and the Saints did,

to them in the second half is another for me sign for concern. By the way, I'm looking for something right now because many of you keep pointing to Washington's rank defensively in the traditional numbers. There were some points in that game, a number of points, too many, at least enough to notice, where it seemed like the defensive linemen were in the backfield the minute Brian Robinson got the ball. Oh, no doubt. Look, they missed Tyler Biotish Sunday. It's hard to get around that. Absolutely. Here it is. This is from Masey. Masey writes, you keep talking about your concern for the defense. They're ranked 12th in the NFL right now and rising. They're ranked 12th right now in yards allowed.

the true traditional old school really meaningless stat. Yards Aloud can be so misleading. Look at the teams they have faced here recently. If you look at DVOA, which is a much better indication of strength, they are 25th in the league defensively. 25th. and per DVOA rush defense, let me pull it up because that wasn't very good.

Right now they are 26th in rush defense. This is a much better indication. It takes into consideration, you know, down distance, context, opponent, everything. And I just, I still think that's the concern. And it's ironic because I think some of their best players are on defense. Frankie Louvre, Bobby Wagner, Jeremy Chin, who, by the way, is in concussion protocol. And how about Marshawn Latimore?

You know, they didn't throw at them for 60 minutes. Now, that'll be different with Philadelphia. That'll be different with A.J. Brown and Devante Smith. They're not going to shy away like New Orleans did with backup quarterbacks. But, you know, a lot of that is you've, you've, faced a second and a third string. You faced Will Levis. You faced Cooper Rush. You know, a few weeks before that, you faced the Giants. You faced Caleb Williams, who is really struggling. The Panthers who were playing Andy Dalton. You played Deshawn Watson this year, who was horrendous.

I mean, the best quarterbacks they have faced this year, well, the best quarterback they faced this year, they faced him beat in week three, Joe Burrow. But they didn't do it with their defense. They just outscored them. Yeah. You know, you keep saying that, you know, they haven't played a good team. They haven't beat a good team. They're not a good team. Well, they're nine and five.

They might have played well, but they're not a good team. They're not? I don't think so. Well, how would you describe them at nine and five? Okay, well, like you said, they're better than some of the bad teams they've played. But I wouldn't say they're a good team. I mean, where are they good? Break down the positions.

Well, they're very good at quarterback. They're very good at quarterback. They're very good with their number one wide receiver. They have an outstanding run game. They're a top five offense in the league, even after Sunday. They have an outstanding run game because of the quarterback. Yeah, well, I mean, a lot. That's why Baltimore and Philly is.

have outstanding running games as well. I mean... Well, actually, Baltimore has an outstanding running game because they have Derek Henry, too. Well, they have an outstanding running game in part because it's 11 on 11 with the quarterback involved in the run game. I know. And that's, you know, Philadelphia, that's, I mean, I'm looking right now, you know, per DVOA, Washington's third as a rush offense in traditional numbers in terms of, hold on,

Right now, rush offense ranked seventh in the NFL. Baltimore's one, Detroit's two. They lost in Montgomery, by the way. Big loss for them. I saw that. Buffalo 3. They're just going down with one injury after. I just don't think Washington has a good roster, therefore they're not a good team.

I think they've played well, and they have a couple of key, oh, they have the key component in the quarterback, who couldn't get by. And you just made the case that, you know, look at the teams that they've beaten. You know? Yes. It doesn't mean they're a good team. But they haven't had many. But they haven't had many good teams on their schedule.

Most of the teams they've had on their schedule have been losing teams. Now, they do own a win now over a 500 team with Arizona winning last week. But hold on for a second. You said they're not a good. good team because they don't have a good roster. You don't think a team can be a good team without a good roster? I think it's possible. I don't think that's the case here. I just wouldn't describe them as a good team. I just would describe them as a team that we've had this discussion for years. There's a good team and then there's playing well. And, well, they didn't play well last week.

Right. For the most part, they've played well against teams that are kind of on par with them in a lot of ways. But you asked me where are they good? They're good on offense. They're a good team on offense. Well, I'll tell you what. Right now they're not. Well, they are.

They just, you know, Sunday was a strange game, but the quarterback and the number one wide receiver were really good in the game. And that's why they won more than anything else. That and the fact that Jake Hainer was the starting quarterback in the first half against them. But I take exception to it. I think they are a good team. I don't think that they are what I thought they had a chance to be a month and a half ago. But I think they are a good team because they are a good offense with the capability of being an excellent offense.

Now, we'll see what happens with, you know, Echler, Noah Brown potentially Eertz. I think Echler's actually the biggest loss of the three. I think they missed a guy like Echler actually on Sunday. But I think that's one of the reasons that Sunday is important. And maybe it's not that it's important for them from a standing standpoint or anything that. From my standpoint, it's important for me to see that they in this big spot really compete and have a good chance to win the game, regardless of the way it goes. I mean, I'm not saying I'd be happy with a loss. I'd love to beat Philadelphia because you may face this team in the first round of the playoffs.

In fact, if you beat Philadelphia this weekend, it actually makes it more likely that you'll face Philly in the first round of the playoffs. If you lose to Philly, Philly's on their way, maybe to the one seed, and you're going to face either Minnesota or Detroit. Say that again? That playoff game would be in Philly. Yes, it would be in a 2-7 game. Yeah.

But Philly right now has a good chance to get the one-seed. But if they lose to Washington, that's a big blow to their one-seed hopes. I know that we've completely ignored the conversation. about them winning the division because there are three games to go and Philly's got a three game lead. Philly would have to lose all three, including Sunday,

Washington would have to win all three. I just don't see Philadelphia losing all three. Let me read this from my guy Avine. Avine is a frequent caller to the radio show. He writes, Kevin, Avine from D.C. here. Just wanted to send a quick food for thought about the current playoff picture because I think a lot of us are assuming we're pretty much into the playoffs with 10 wins. I don't think that's true in that we could easily miss out being 10

and 7. If we lose to Philly, then against Atlanta in essentially an elimination game, I say this because Atlanta's three other opponents of the Raiders who they did beat last night, ugly, giants and Panthers, they could easily win those three and knock us out with a head-to-head and be in the seventh spot at 10-and-7, also assume Tampa will win at least two of their next three against the Cowboys Panthers. Yeah, yeah. The game against your boy, Kirk, our boy, Kirk, he writes, actually, and the Falcons will be huge.

Look for it to be announced soon that it's getting flexed to not Saturday, but Sunday night. Yeah, it's going to be one of those two for sure. Yeah, I know that 10 and 7 isn't a lock. I get that. I understand that. And the scenario that you just painted was the one that I talked about on Friday show. is Atlanta wins out, Tampa wins out, and you get the NFC West with 11 and 6, 11 and 6.

Yeah, that is an issue. If you watched Atlanta last night, right now they are struggling. Doesn't mean it'll continue, but they've hit, you know, a real lull. They've lost four out of their last five. They lost four in a row. they won last night against a bad Raiders team, starting by the way Desmond Ritter at quarterback. And Cousins looks, to be honest with you, shot. Like he looks shot physically.

Last night he had confidence issues. And I'm actually less concerned about that game if he comes in playing the way he's playing. Now, I was a big fan of Pennix Jr. So if he gets the opportunity, who the hell knows? but you're going to get a rookie starting maybe his first or second game at that point. I think 10 Washington still is a pretty good bet. I also think their chances of winning 11 are better than, say, the Rams or the Seahawks who lost the other night.

In Seattle, maybe without a quarterback on Sunday. We'll get to a Sam Howell email in the next segment that I have to read. But, yeah, no, 10 and 7s, not a lock. True. That would be awfully disappointing. That would be disappointing. Yeah. Because when I predicted 10 and 7, Tommy, I predicted a playoff berth. Damn it.

I can't believe that 10 and 7 might happen because I never thought it really would happen. Well, sometimes it's better to be lucky and good. You know what? That's what left you, Drusel used to say all the time. You know what? It's better to be lucky than good. And he had some bad luck. A lot of bad luck is the head coach of Maryland. All right, we got a lot more on the show, including a 30 for 30 doc that we both watched that we want to talk about.

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Yeah, this is going to be such a fun week of football. You know, it's holiday time. You get Thursday night, that's a good game. Denver Chargers huge in the play. playoff race in the AFC. And then Friday night in South Bend. No one would have ever predicted that the opponent was going to be Indiana. And nobody predicted that SMU was going to be the opponent on Saturday against Penn State.

But man, this is, even though it's a bit of a flawed system this year, this is a dream come true for college football fans. It'll be fun. Tommy, I got – I like the outsiders coming in. Me too. I don't mind that. It, you know, it gives you a chance. It gives everybody a chance. Like, Indiana didn't have to go undefeated to get into this thing.

SMU didn't go undefeated, and they're in this thing. Boise didn't go undefeated. They're in this thing as a conference champion, but still. No, it should be spectacular. And I promise you, there are some games right now that I would be shocked if I don't have in my smell. test and they match up with kind of games I like. Texas is definitely going to be a play, and I think Ohio State's going to be a play. Those are two favorites. Yes, I understand that. All right, I got this from Sandy. Sandy writes, so Sam Howell is trash because he came in off the bench against one of the

best teams and played bad. I think it's played badly. You and everyone else need to give him a break. He had a bad coach here, bad O.C, and the fans didn't give him a fair shot, and he still played some good ball here. Oh my God. So let me... I'm talking about delusional. It's so delusional. Let me just real quickly just clear up why Sandy sent this to me, because I don't think I actually said this on the podcast. If you missed it on Sunday night, Gino Smith got hurt in the Seattle Green Bay game. Sam Hal remember that Adam Peters was able to extract a draft choice for Sam Howe from the Seattle Seahawks. And he's been the backup in Seattle this year.

Well, when Gino went out, Sam Hal came in and truly had one of the worst relief appearances you'll ever see. I mean, it was. It was so awful. And to be fair, Sandy, when Denton and I talked about this on the radio show yesterday, all I said is what I just said, it was one of the worst relief appearances. I didn't say he was trash. In fact, I said, we know he's capable of more than that. You know, we saw moments here last year where he proved he was at least a backup in the NFL. But his performance, for those that didn't see it, he was 5 of 14 for 24 yards.

He threw an interception. He got sacked four times. He had a 3.3 QBR and a 14.6 passer rating. They had no chance of anything good happening when he came into the game. In fact, Seattle fans who, you know, someone, were like, I remember he had a couple good games last year. That's not a bad backup. And I think he may have played, you know, okay in the preseason games. They get a little frustrated with Gino Smith. And I'm sure, like with our fans, there were probably a few that said, ah, Sam Hald could probably come in and do that. I actually like Gino Smith. And even those people were like, oh, that, that was, that was

offensive looking. It was a bad performance. But, you know, under what circumstances? do you possibly feel compelled to write an email in support of Sam Howe after that performance? Well, how about the fact that he said the fans didn't give a fair shot? I know. I think he got upset that I was, look, there was a group of people, Tommy. I dealt with these people all during the 23 off season that wanted to make that Dallas game at the end of 20, 22 into, you know, a Joe Montana performance. And I'm like, serious?

I know he did. Well, but he didn't even want to start him. I mean, they had no confidence that Sam Howe was going to be anything before that game. But as Ben Standing pointed out very early on, this was the ability to create another diversion and conversation that got Ron away from the hideous conversation. about the way the season ended against Cleveland without him knowing that they could even be eliminated. And it gave like this, it was a wing and a prayer.

Nobody in that organization thought that Sam Hal was a slam dunk to be a starter, which is why it took Taylor Heineke talking the coach into playing Sam Hal. But I had to deal with that. We both did. The Howlers out there, the Hauer people, the Howler people, the Carson Wals. Wence people that I don't blame any of you for wanting something to work out. I always said you can feel the way you want to feel. Now, the Carson Wents thing, come on.

I mean, there were so many red flags on that. You had to be an idiot to ignore those. The Taylor Heineckee thing, come on. He's a competitor. He's a badass. He just doesn't have an NFL arm. Didn't mean that he couldn't compete and be a gamer and have some results, but he's a backup quarterback. But Sam Howe, my God, this way, and he had some games, you know, he had some games.

But, you know, I never ever blamed any of you for hoping and seeing some things that you hoped developed. But some of you lectured about how you knew, and the The rest of us were idiots for not seeing it. You know, and you were the same way with Carson Wentz. My God, did I take a pounding for crushing that trade and saying they got absolutely taken to the cleaners in that trade? And not being like... When I went to training camp and after seeing him one day said this guy will be on the bench by the 10th game, I took a brutal beating for that one.

Yeah, I mean, they haven't had a quarterback here. You know, they just haven't since Kirk left. Kirk was a legitimate starting top half of the league quarterback. They haven't had anything resembling that. Even Alex Smith in that first part of the year, Alex was limited from a passing standpoint. You know, they PFF nicknamed the checkdown stat after Alex Smith. And by the way, he was better than anything that came after it. Even coming off that injury in 2020, he played better than anybody else they had.

But to suggest, by the way, that the fans didn't give him a fair shot, they felt like he wasn't getting, they wanted him to get a better shot. I had people all off-season saying, don't draft Jaden Daniels. trade back, draft linemen, draft players, and build around Sam Howl. I had a lot of people that thought that was the way to go. So, no, you're wrong about that, Sandy. There were a lot of people that felt the same way you did. They were big howlers.

And it's not fair. I never said he was trash. I never. In fact, I said, and I'll say again here, what I watched Sunday night was one of the most brutal. relief appearances I've ever seen. And let's face it, Sam Hal had a couple of starting performances last year, and its first year starting, okay, that were brutal.

I mean, that game against Buffalo, where he took nine or ten sacks, was one of the worst started NFL games by a quarterback I've ever seen. I mean, it was Nathan Petermanesque. It was really awful. But we knew he was capable after that Philadelphia game, after that Denver game. The two Philadelphia games. Yeah. He's capable of throwing the football. The big difference between Hal and I said this all last year, big difference between Hal and Heineke is Hal had NFL arm strength. His problem is he plays small, is small, and just doesn't see it yet. And that's why he

took all those sacks. You know, he was, you know, if we don't get Berset at the end of the year, he probably sets the mark or comes close to it for sacks in a season. But even after last year, I said, somebody's going to give him a chance and he's going to be a backup in this league for a while. And the other night was not reflective of what he's capable of, even in relief. So I agree with you on that front. He's just not, you know, he's not a starting quarterback unless you got to start him in a pinch for a few games because your starter is injured. And obviously, Taylor, Heineke isn't that either. Taylor's a backup for the Chargers for Justin Herbert.

By the way, that speaks to something with Taylor Heineke because Jim Harbaugh is not going to have just anybody be the backup quarterback. I bet you Harbaugh loves Heineke. Yes. But, yeah. Okay.

Enough. We have our guy. We have our guy. It's pretty obvious. We have our. guy. And he's going to get some big chances down the stretch. All right. I know you want to talk about the Jet documentary. We'll do that to finish up the show right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Euro step around that hot take and make a play today with Robin Hood. With a 3%

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All right, Tommy, tell us about Shelley's. Love Shelly's this time of year. It's getting close. Christmas is why eight days away. Yep. And if you haven't gotten a present for your significant other in your life, I'm telling you the place that will save your life right now is Shelly's Backroom. Go to shelley's backroom.com and you can order gift cards anywhere from $50 to $500 gift cards that are available to give to your husband, your wife, your boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever. and they'll be pleasantly surprised when they open the envelope on Christmas morning

and see that they've got a visit already paid for at Shelly's backroom. It's a very unique gift, something that they wouldn't expect, and something that they'll never forget, and you'll be able to join them because you'll probably go with them to Shelly's, to have a top-rate cigar, to have a top-shelf drink, and to have something off the great menu of food that they have. Shelly's Backroom is at 1331 F Street Northwest, so it's right in the middle of D.C.

You know, this time of year, Christmas in D.C. is always beautiful, very festive. You'll be right in the middle of all the festivities, and it will be a festival for you, a Christmas festival at Shelley's Backroom. Find out more at shelley's backroom.com. I love when you say, you know, you can take friends and friends, family with you when what you would do is you would drop them off at the natural museum, the American Natural Museum of History, and with the kids or grandkids, and then you'd say, I'll be right back, and you'd go to Shelly's without them.

That's some of the best advice I've ever given. It's some good advice, that's for sure. Yeah. All right. So the New York Sack Exchange, 30 for 30 that aired on Friday night. I actually had the guy Ken Rogers, the director on the radio show last week. Oh, cool. He's done a lot of 30 for 30s.

He's done a lot of the hard knock stuff. It was actually, I enjoyed it. Let me just tell you up front. I haven't seen the entire thing. I saw basically two thirds of it. I came in at that point, and then it sucked me in right away. And my God is Gastino, a character. character and the four of them, but in particular, Lions, Cleco, and Gasson, or something else.

But look, this is your team. These are some of your memories of rooting for the Jets in the 80s. Tell everybody what it's about and what you thought of it. Well, I mean, you're right. This really hits home for me. I remember that Jets' AFC championship game against the Dolphins, you know, with. where the, you know, Miami, the field was not covered, and the wet field, you know, worked in favor of the dolphins in that game. I had, I remember watching that game at home with a bunch of my friends who were Jets fans. I painted my face green for watch the game in my home.

Really? In my home. Oh, my God. You've never told me that before. You painted yourself green and you weren't even at the game. I know it was in Miami. Yes. Yes.

Okay. How many? I mean, we went to see a bunch of Jets games in those years in the early 80s. We'd make an annual trip every year about six or seven of us to a Jets game. And I really, it was a big deal. And I felt like they had a really good team. They had a lot of talent. And this is ultimately why abandoned the Jets.

You know, I gave up on the Jets when they left Shays Day. stadium and moved to the Meadowlands, but it was easy to do because they were an underachieving team. Okay. And to have this pass rush that they had and to not have more to show for it than they did shows that they were an underachieving team. This was, at that time, you know, one of the best pass rushers in the history of football. Yeah.

You had two guys with over 20 sacks. Yeah. You had Kleco, a defensive tackle with over 20 sacks, very unheard of, and then you had Gastonoh, who set the NFL record. So, I mean, it had Freeman McNeil on that team. They had Wesley Walker. They had Greg Butler, was the middle linebacker from Penn State. They had a lot on that team.

And so this really hit home for me, and you're right, Gastonoe is a hot mess, isn't he? He really is, but he's really kind of a compelling figure on this show and the relationships are really complex. But before we get to that and the show itself, so, I mean, a couple of things here. You painted your face green and had a bunch of friends over to your place to watch the AFC championship game. How, I mean, this was in East Rowsburg, right? Yes. This was, yes. So did you get a, did you have a half or a quarter keg of yingling?

No, we just had cans. Okay. We just had cans at that point. Yingling, Rolling Rock, would you have? Do you remember? Oh, Genesee Creamail back then. Genesee cremail. Got it. Did you, were you one of those people that dressed up for games? No.

Okay. Well, again, back then, I'm not even sure back then. you could buy jerseys even. It certainly wasn't as, you know, prolific as it is, you know, is it would become in the 90s. Yeah. You transfer me to a different age. Yeah, I'm wearing a jersey to a game.

Well, that's a whole other show, you know, age appropriateness for wearing jerseys. But we can save that for another day. But, yeah, I mean, the Jets, I mean, you know, I grew up in the Joe Neiman era. I know you did. You know, so, I mean, I was, I was smitten with the Jets, and I thought that was the team. And I always thought it would be interesting. What would have happened to the Redskins if they had played a Jets in that Super Bowl? Well, the Jets were favored in the AFC championship game,

and the Cowboys were favored in the NFC championship game. The two road teams were very short favorites. You know, Dallas had beaten Washington for Washington's only regular season loss. For those of you that don't know, many of you probably remember, 82 was a strike-shortened season. They played nine regular season games when they came back. Well, they started with two. Then they went on strike, and they came back and played another seven.

And they expanded the playoffs to include eight teams that particular year. In fact, you know, the Jets were a lower-seated team. I'm just trying to think they, yeah, they made it comfortably. with a six and three record. Washington was eight and one. They were the one seat in the NFC. But the Cowboys and Jets were both very short favorites on the road in the title game. So people were expecting Jets cowboys and they got Skins Dolphins, and of course that's Washington's first Super Bowl win. I don't want to lose this one thought because I don't know the answer to this, but you will. You said that you had, it was a blow when they moved from Shea State.

stadium to the Meadowlands. Actually, in this 30 for 30, Mike Greenberg, who grew up a massive Jets fan, and if you watch him on his ESPN morning show, you know, the Jets are everything to him. He said that a lot of, you know, what they felt for the Jets was lost when they moved to the Meadowlands. Yeah. Was the same? It was a different five in the city than it was out over in Jersey. So does the same conversation apply to?

to giant fans when they moved from Yankee Stadium to the Meadowlands, which happened, you know, about a decade earlier? It happened. It happened. You know, the Giants were bad when they moved. Right. Okay. So I don't think the impact was as great. I wasn't around. I wasn't, you know, I didn't follow that as much, but I'm thinking because the Giants weren't that good to begin with. And the Jets were, again, like the Mets. They were aligned with the Mets. They played at Chase Stadium. They were the upstart.

and the giants were the Yankees. The giants were the old standard. You know, the giants were the team your father rooted for. The Jets were the team you rooted for. And they had name it, the ultimate rebel. You know? So the Jets had a different persona than the Giants. The Giants were Wall Street, you know,

and the Jets were, I don't know, Nostrand Avenue or some street in Brooklyn or something like that, Flatbush Avenue. So there were, queens going out to the island, Jets, Mets, right? Everywhere else, Yankees, giants, for the most part. I know it wasn't, you know, it's not uniform. But that, yeah, yeah. And, you know.

And Brooklyn. You have to include Brooklyn for Jets and Mets too. All right. Well, I've told you this before. My father loved Joe Namath. I mean, still to this day, he'll say, Sonny and Joe Namath, the greatest people. passers in the history of the game. My father very much was sort of, you know, I think I've told

you this before, the first basketball I ever got was an ABA basketball, the red, white, and blue ball. He was big into the AFL, even though we had Redskins season tickets, and he was a huge skins fan. He loved the AFL. He loved Namath. Now, this jet team with Kleko, Marty Lyons, with Mark Gastino, and Abdul Salam. lot. This front four was devastating and Gastino was an incredible pass rusher and like you said Cleco started inside, went outside, Cleco's in the Hall of Fame. You know, Gastonot's numbers there were pretty wild for a few years and you know, you could make a, I think a slim and weak case for Gastonaut, but he ain't going to the Hall of Fame. But what did you think of the show and how it was done?

and then these interpersonal relationships between these four men that really were the backbone of that team, and, you know, they sack the quarterback as much as anybody did in the NFL for a few years. I thought it was a great documentary. You know, the thing that got most of the attention was Gastonaut confronting Brett Farrb about allowing Michael Strayham to get the sack that broke Gaston's record. I thought that was one of the least interesting parts of the documentary. I thought the relationship between Cleco and Gastonoe and Lions was the best thing about it. No doubt. And Cleco, Cleco was such a badass.

I mean, he told the story on that documentary about when he played football at Temple. He also drove a tractor-trailer part-time, and he would park his truck out on the street outside the stadium. him, you know, when he was playing. Then he'd go to work after the game, delivering stuff in his tractor-trailer. He was a boxer. He used to box while he was in college as well. So he was a legitimate badass, and he had no patience for Gastonnell. Could not be more opposite of Mark Gastonel.

You know, Gassanel was a bright light, big city kind of guy, and Cleco was a truck driving kind of guy. What was interesting about the four of them, but the three you focused in on, Cleco, Lions, and Gastinoe, is like, you know, a lot of people have in various parts of their lives. A lot of it is professional connection, personal, but they have this connection that they'll never be able to erase. But because they were so different, because they all admit that Gastino was so selfish and so. so self-centered and was a problem when they played with him. But now as older men, you know, in their 60s approaching, what, 70 years old, I have no idea how old's Mark Gastinoe right now? He's got to be close to 70, I would guess. The emotions that came to their faces when they were

together. And Cleco was the one, Marty Lyons and Gastino had the big, issue. You know, they've had, it would appear they've, they've been at odds for a long time, because Marty Lyons has come out more publicly than Cleco and talked about, you know, how selfish and self-centered Gaston know was. But Cleco was a little bit of the broker in that relationship in those conversations and was also, they all were, they got so emotional. And Gastino, first of all, he's a freakish looking dude right now. Like, I mean, there were obvious steroid, you know, he was a steroid user. He was, but you talk about boxing.

Remember when he tried to become a boxer, that was part of it. But the emotions of people when they get older and they've had issues, but they have this kind of a connection is always really, if it's done well the way this guy did it, it's an emotional way. watch even if you didn't care at all about this team. Yeah, it definitely was. And let's not forget. And I don't know if he's ever said this before, you know, but Gassano revealed he was sexually abused as a child. He did that on the show.

Yes. Was that the first time he's ever said that? He said it was. I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. That basically he was raped as a young boy. Right. By like a field hand or something like that. Yes.

Yeah. working, you know, some fields. I forget where was Gastinoe from somewhere out in California? I thought it was somewhere in California. I think Oklahoma. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a lot.

It's worth the watch, definitely. Definitely worth the watch. I miss the first third or the first quarter of it. I'm going to go back and watch it again. I mean, they kind of made up. They all said that they love each other, you know, at the end. and Salaam is in a wheelchair and passed, well, in this, in the 30 for 30, he passed away a couple of months ago. Yeah.

Yeah. And you talk about a connection. When you share something that you share something unique that nobody else knows about that nobody else can relate to. Yeah. That's a connection that lasts forever. No doubt. Yeah. And these four men have it.

And it's kind of cool to see. And they were at odds with Gastino, the three of them were. What was Salam's, what was his nickname? Why am I blanking on it? The peacemaker or something like that. What was his nickname? Baker, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He just seems like one of the kindest people. And he passed recently. But he was in that get-together, which obviously, they must of, you know, videoed months ago. You know,

he was still kind of wanting to be, he wanted everybody to get along, you know? And Kleco really wanted that. He was able to be part of it. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Gaston O' grew up in Oklahoma. You're right. 68 years old, by the way. The tarp on the field was a part of it. I actually talked about that with Ken Rogers, because that's my single biggest memory of that championship game against the Dolphins, is that the, you know, Shula kept, you know, you could never get away with that in today's NFL, but they didn't cover the field with a tarp and there were torrential rains.

And the jets were the faster, more athletic team both on offense and on defense with their pass rushers. And it basically won Miami the game. You know, they had, the quarterback of the Jets was Richard Todd. Richard Todd, yeah. He was flawed. Yeah, but Freeman McNeil was a really good back. That was, that was a contentious part of the episode, is that the team voted Freeman McNeil, the MVP instead of Gastineau,

off of that 22-sack year. And he's, you know, like with Favre, giving up the sack to Strayan, and he doesn't appreciate that. But Freeman McNeil was a good NFL back. Had some really good seasons. I know that. Yeah. Yes, he was one of those players that you'd say,

that guy plays for us. I'm proud to have him on the team. Absolutely. A Wesley Walker at wide receiver was an excellent receiver. I think Freeman McNeil may have played with Doc at UCLA. I think he may have. If he didn't, he was, Let me just see Freeman McNeil.

I don't think so. Doc played with a lot of great players at UCLA. Doc was a really good player at UCLA. Freeman McNeil was a rookie in 81, which means, you know, 77 to 80, 70 to 81, whatever. Yeah, Doc, I think Doc was picked in the fifth round in the 77 draft, 78 draft, something like that. So he was just gone, I would guess.

All right. Yeah, recommended for sure. Anything else? Yeah, there's one thing I wanted to bring up. Okay. Kind of an off-the-wall unique thing. But, you know, I mean, I go through Facebook, look through pictures and stuff, you know, when I'm looking, just like kind of, you get caught up and scrolling. And I came across a picture of a slot car track. Of a what? Slot car track.

I don't know. I don't know what that is. When I was a teenager, like maybe 12, 13, 14 in the Poconos in East Trousburg, there was this place, it was a slot car track. It was like a big, like arcade area, and they built these huge tracks for slot cars. Slot cars were like the size of maybe a shoe, okay, and you put them in a track. and you had controllers that you would use. Oh, yeah, of course. I thought you were talking about like an outdoor track, like for racing.

No. Oh, of course, yeah. Did you remember slot cars? Of course. I had those tracks and built those tracks and the what you call. No, but these are not the little ones. These are big. These are like, like I said, the size of your shoe was the size of a car.

Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't have that. I had the little. And then the tracks were enormous things. Not something you'd have in your basement. Okay. But something that would take up half a house. So they had slot car racing centers.

And, I mean, everyone had a slot car and growing up. You know, I had a Mako Shark slot car. And, you know, you took care of it. You cleaned it. You fixed it. And for a while, for a very brief while, it was a huge phenomenon. on. I don't remember.

I remember hot wheels and the tracks that you put hot wheels on. That's a different thing. Yeah. Yeah. And then the slot car thing just disappeared. And I'd love to find a place where to have slot car tracks now. I haven't been able to find any. But this picture reminded me for a brief period, it was the hottest thing kids were into.

It was slot car. I don't remember that. Not the big thing. I remember the, you know, the little tracks and they fit into the slots, hot, well, Hot Wheels weren't necessarily, it may have been Mattel or Hasbro or whatever. One of those companies had that. And I would get one of those for Christmas from Santa Claus every year. You know, I'll tell you what I never, ever got.

I was not a train set person at all. Well, my dad was. My dad would start in October putting up our train set for Christmas. Yeah. It was a pretty big deal. But I was never, I didn't inherit his skills working with any kind of tools whatsoever. Me neither. So I was never able to copy that for my kids.

Yeah. My father wasn't necessarily handy, but I didn't pick it up from anybody. The toolbox in our house is really my wife's. She knows what most of them are for. I'm not completely useless. I can do most simple things, but I'm not, you know. Oh, I am completely useless when it comes to tools. Like I said, you could put on my tombstone when I die.

Never owned a power tool. We got plenty of them around the house, but if you start asking me for which drill bit we need to use, it's a problem. All right, good job back on Thursday, and we'll talk about the big game on Sunday. Have a good one, Tommy. Okay, boss. All right, perfect. I got a roll. Thank you. Okay, I'll see you.

And we'll do Thursday early. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Bye.