The Kevin Sheehan Show - Tommy Sheppard Fired and Commanders At 16

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Kevin is out. Tim Murray is sitting in. Tim discussed whether it's a good or bad sign that the Wizards fired Tommy Sheppard. Thor Nystrom joined the podcast to breakdown the possible prospects Washington could draft at 16. Josh Robbins/The Athletic finished the show looking at what's next for the Wizards front office. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Welcome in, everyone. It is the Kevin Sheehan podcast. I am not Kevin Sheehan.

I am Tim Murray. I've been a guest on this podcast a time or two, talking some college football, talking some betting. And Sheehan taken a couple days off, asked me to sit in for him and was happy to oblige. Of course, longtime deal. DC, Maryland native, and now living out in Las Vegas. I host a show on V-Sin, which is the Sports Gambling Network, with Sean King.

Of course, famously was the quarterback of the Buccaneers in January of 2000 when the Buccaneers beat the Redskins 14 to 13. B. Mitch had the kickoff return for a touchdown to start the second half. And now I work on a daily basis with Sean. Don't worry. I get my licks in on him. he does does get to hold that over me for eternity. But Kevin out. A lot to get to today. I listened back to the podcast yesterday and not to blow smoke because Kevin's not even here, but it is a nice bringing me back home type of feel when I walk my dog at night after work,

just to pop in the pod and listen to Kevin and Tom or Kevin and whoever may be coolly and just the chat. Is there a gambling text thread between myself, Kevin, and Steve Sands? Yes, there is. Does Kevin often not answer? Yes, that is also correct. So, you know, I think last night, let me, let me text it. Let me see if last night, let me check the live checking of the Sheehan Sands podcast. And I said, let's see. I said, thinking about the gris tonight, Steve Sands responded, fade the Oakland A's. And then Sheehan said a couple hours later, look at this.

Sheehan did respond. He said, I don't like anything tonight. And I heard him say that on the podcast. Maybe Minnesota. Well, if he took Minnesota, that was a tough one last night. Tough one to swallow as the Timberwolves had an incredible. third quarter. That game last night going back and forth was a lot of fun to watch Denver and the Timberwolves, but ultimately Denver gets the win, gets the cover. The Memphis Grizzlies

did get a win, so that was nice. It was one of those situations where I got a text from someone that I often fade, and I'll pull it up real quickly. And I'm not going to do all gambling here. I'm going to get into some important stuff. And, you know, obviously with Tommy Shepard being fired, what that means. I want to get to that in just a moment. But I want to point this out. Just kind of what Kevin talks about all the time with the anti-public play. But John Morant was out last night. I'm just going to,

I'm going to paint the picture for you a little bit about how myself, Kevin, Steve, so many others think. So I got a text last night or yesterday afternoon. It said, Lakers at a pick. I feel like I need to take that. And immediately I'm thinking, okay, let's go. And this was before the John Morant news came out. Then the John Morant news comes out and the line doesn't even really move. It moved back to Lakers minus one. Actually closed Memphis minus one. It was already baked in. Everybody assumed that the Lakers would take care of business with John Morant sidelined.

Not the case. And now we've got a one one series. But Memphis this to me, man, they're unlikable. Dylan Brooks yesterday. Hey, man. They talk a lot of shit for a team that has done absolutely nothing. Think about last year. All the crap they were talking against the Golden

State Warriors, cool. You didn't win the series. The Warriors won the title. It's a team that has nonstop yapping. Dylan Brooks is calling out LeBron, saying he's old, saying he doesn't have his respect. All right. Good luck.

Good luck, Grizzlies. I know there's plenty of people who would enjoy LeBron exiting this series. I totally see that, understand that as well. I kind of want LeBron to go out there on Saturday night. By the way, 10 o'clock, sorry for you guys back east. 10 o'clock for the Lakers Grizzlies on Saturday night, yikes. How do you, why do you do that? But regardless, he said he doesn't give anyone respect unless they put in 40 on him.

Dame Lillard has putting in 40 on Dylan Brooks. I kind of want LeBron to throw, to go like game six in Boston in 2012 style. I don't know if LeBron still has that in him. That was 12 years or 10 years ago. So I don't know if that is going to happen. So we will see. A lot to get to today on the podcast. You've heard from him before, Thor Nystrom.

We are going to break down some potential draft prospects for Washington at 16. I have looked at God knows how many mock drafts and have just wrote down names that you see frequented to Washington at 16. Thor does as good a job as any of breaking down draft prospects, giving his analysis. You guys heard it from him a couple weeks ago when he was on the pod with Kevin. We're a week away from the NFL drafts. We'll get into some names. We'll get into a local name. Deonti Banks that has been rising up a lot of mock drafts, maybe a spot for Washington.

I know Washington had a 30, 30 visit with him. So that certainly could be a name. We'll get into a lot of things there with the NFL draft. And then we'll close out the show with Josh Robbins from The Athletic who covers the Wizards. And a couple weeks ago, was it last week? I can't remember all the, all the Shee and pods kind of blend together here. But I am one of the people who texts Kevin, especially. early on in his podcast, how it all started. And I would text him, stop talking about the

Wizards. No one cares. And we used to have this fight all the time because Kevin loves hoops. And I love hoops. I do. But this franchise has really never had the juice, even in the years. And you can, you know, scream and yell at me and say, no, when Gilbert was here, you know, John Wall and Bradley Biel, look, there were some fun moments. The, you know, did you call bank? I called game moment was tremendous. John Wall jumping on the scorers table. Game six against the Celtics was a lot of fun.

But at the end of the day, I feel like Kevin came finally to a come to Jesus moment where he said, this franchise is irrelevant. You know, they're lucky where even, I'm even talking about them, paraphrasing Kevin. And I agree. and the move yesterday to fire Tommy Shepard, I think is something that could be looked at as a punch in the arm, a breath of fresh air. And I think Josh Robbins, I already taped that interview with him,

will mention that in our chat there. But this is a franchise that Tommy over the years has gotten his licks in on Ernie Grunfeld, the arsonist fireman, which is one of the most tremendous nicknames. Tommy gives out a lot of good nicknames. That might be atop the list there regarding Ernie Grunfeld. But the leash on Ernie Grumfeld felt like it was endless. And for Tommy Shepard to be shown the door after this season, knowing that Kyle Kuzma's contracts, he's got a player option.

Christopps Porzingis has a player option. As a wizard fan, could it get worse? of course. But I think it could get a lot better. And for an owner that feels like he has continued to just want to swim around in mediocrity. And Bill Simmons on his podcast a couple weeks ago called them the dumbest franchise in the league this year, a franchise that seems happy about being an eight seed in the postseason, I think this could be a very positive thing.

Now, who do they ultimately get? That remains to be seen. Only team in the league right now with a general manager opening, which you would think is a positive. But certainly the Bradley Beal contract is going to be looked at as not really a positive thing moving forward. Are they going to, with a new general manager, talk to Beal, see if he wants out, if this is going to be a complete rebuild? I would think the likelihood of Kyle Kuzman will get into this with Josh Robbins.

coming back is pretty low, knowing that he's going to be able to hit free agency with a player option of 13 million, which I would imagine he would decline. Christopps Porzingis, does he come back? Does he pick up his player option? Does he get extended? But I think as a franchise that is basically irrelevant in town

and has just been in this bizarre land of, let's get into the eight seed or the play in, tournament. Let's fight for, let's not trade our players at the deadline. I think this could be looked at as a positive. We'll see how it all plays out. But to me, from afar, and you see, you know, the responses saying, whoa, didn't see this coming. I think that should be looked at as a positive. Good. This is maybe a change expecting more. West Sunseld Jr. is expected to come back. if it is someone like Tim Conley, who once again, Joshua will mention, that could be a positive for West Sunsell Jr.

Tim Conley is going to be fascinating because he just signed that big deal with the Minnesota Timberwolves. I have no idea if the Rudy Gobert deal was his choosing. But Tim Connolly signed a five-year $40 million deal last year to go from Denver, to Minnesota. He's from D.C., worked for the Wizards, went to Catholic University. Speculatory, I wonder if Tim Conley, knowing that that franchise, the Minnesota Timberwolves, who just gave up all those assets in what might end up being a top three worst trade of all time in the NBA with Rudy Gobert, if he's going to say, get me out of here.

That's speculatory. But if you're the wizards, you're calling him. You're absolutely calling Tim Conley and seeing if he'll come down. We'll talk about who else could be on that list, Josh Robbins, a little bit later on in the podcast. We're going to talk some NFL draft here up momentarily. I will give my thoughts, maybe tomorrow. I'll be here for two days. And then fortunately for you, Kevin, we'll be back on Monday, getting you ready for the NFL draft.

Real quickly, just a kind of NFL draft thought here. And I'm fascinated by the NFL draft. I don't like reality shows, but I do love the drama of the NFL draft. It's fascinating to me. I stare at it all day. I talk about it nonstop. The latest feel right now

is that the Indianapolis Colts love Will Levis. The mayonnaise in his coffee, eating a banana with the rhineine on Herkulean quarterback, Uncle Rico, throw the football over that mountains quarterback. That is the latest. And also, I think right now, Houston's sitting at two, I think they're going defense at two. I don't think there's a big market for that number two pick. I think they would like to trade out.

I think ultimately a week from today, it'll be Bryce Young won, and it'll be either Will Anderson, edge rusher out of Alabama or Tyree Wilson edge rusher out of Texas Tech going number two. Arizona is desperate to get out of three. I am very fascinated, but Houston ultimately does at two. I think they go Will Anderson. Domeco Ryan's was a linebacker at Alabama. I think Will Anderson, while he may not be incredible upside, I think you think back to last year, the Jaguars went Trayvon Walker over Aidan Hutchinson.

If they could do it over, who would they pick now? I think Tyree Wilson has that Trayvon Walker type of upside. But if you're D'Amico Ryan's walking into a new contract six years down in Houston, and you don't love a quarterback because everything you read, they love Bryce Young, may not love all these other quarterbacks. Do you just get a stability piece there at number two, Anderson or Wilson? He's a defensive-minded coach. And also this Trey Lance rumor that he is being shopped around.

If you're Houston, you're D'Amico Ryans, you were in San Francisco. What do you think of Trey Lance? Does he like what he saw? He had a coach against him, right? Because he had a, he was the defensive court. coordinator. And if you can get Tray Lance for, let's say, a third, test them out. Okay, Trey Lance isn't our answer. What did you give up? You didn't give up what the 49ers gave up to go get them. Now, I don't know if the 49ers would do that deal, but I think Houston doesn't go

quarterback at two. I think they stay at two. And I think the run on quarterback starts a little later. And I wonder if C.J. Stroud ultimately falls a little bit more than we expected. And And then, of course, the Hendon Hooker. Where does he ultimately go? I know Kevin talked about Hendon Hooker yesterday. Buzz seems to be real that he's going to be in the first round. Is this a Desmond Ritter type of buzz from last year, Davis Mills from a couple years ago, where, you know, hey, this quarterback could go the boredom that's around with TV networks talking

about a guy that was a Heisman Trophy candidate putting up gaudy numbers? Is he really thought of that highly around the league to be a first round pick? I'll say this. I know there are a bunch of teams that do. do like Hendon Hooker a lot, but is he worth the first round pick? I think that's going to be really, really interesting, you know, come next Thursday. Does a team trade back into the first round to get Hendon Hooker, get that fifth year option, which is the buzzword, by the way, do a drink every time you hear fifth year option in Hendon Hooker,

and you'll be drunk in an hour. All right, Tim Murray, sitting in for Kevin here on the podcast. Up ahead, Thorneisstrom, Josh Robbins. I'll do the obligatory rate review, subscribe, five stars only. I'm not going to be reading any reviews. So if they're negative about the fill-in guy, just make sure you click five stars or say, this podcast is five stars, Kevin, because you're filling Tim Murray really sucked. So if that's all you have to do, I'm here to help Kevin.

This is his podcast. So five stars, always kind. Josh Robbins on the departure of the Wizards General Manager in just a little bit. But coming up next, Tommy Shepherd, of course, we're going to talk some draft. Who could Washington Select at 16? We'll get a breakdown of all the potential options. This is the Kevin Sheehan podcast. Tim Murray in for Kevin.

Back with Thor Nystrom after a couple words from our sponsors. All right. Back to Murray sitting in for Kevin here on the podcast and a frequent guest on my show out in Las Vegas. And I know a guest on this very podcast just a week or so ago. Thor Nystrom, he's one of the best out there. So many great draft folks out there. I love it. I love this event so much. And Thor does an incredible job. My man, Thor at Thor KU on Twitter. Thor, what's up, brother? always good to talk to you Tim. You know, it's a lot of fun.

We talk on a much broader scale on our show, on my show, and obviously more gambling-wise. And, you know, gambling on the draft is kind of a niche thing, sometimes hard to find. But for this particular exercise, I just want to talk about some guys that the commanders could ultimately get at 16. But before we do that real quickly, there seems to be smoke building around.

Will Levis going to the Indianapolis Colts? And I know that doesn't have much to do with the commanders, but I think the quarterbacks just are always fascinating. What's your feel slash read right now, Thor, on how the quarterbacks after Bryce Young, which seems to be a lock, go off the board next week. Well, the fascinating thing is if Houston indeed takes the defender,

if they defer, you know, there's been the whispers that they're not as high on C.J. Stroud. And what gets interesting is in the Colts situation, we've heard for months now that Earsay loves Will Levis. So it was always going to come down to, it was someone in the front office or someone in the coaching staff going to fight him on that. Or did they secretly agree with him on Will Levis? So then, you know, the scenario of like if Levis and Stroud are both on the board, you would have just automatically assumed that a team like the Colts would take C.J. Stroud over Will Eiffis, certainly most of us would. but I mean based on at least the fact that we know Eursay loves Leves, that's where that gets really interesting. So I totally buy that because I've been hearing that for months that Eersay is a

levis guy. Yeah. And we did, I did a podcast last week for Vesen and Matt Humans, who I respect his opinion quite a bit. He's a colleague of mine. And he said he'd been hearing the same thing. I think when there's smoke, sometimes there is fire. And I would be at this point, now lots can changing the next week, but I'd be surprised if Will Levis isn't an Indianapolis Colt next Thursday, which could kind of send some shockwaves. You know, lastly on this front, C.J. Stroud, you're hearing a lot of rumors about this S2 test he struggled on, some rumors that he has not shown out well in his, in his meetings with teams. Another rumor, you know, that the Colts aren't thrilled that he didn't go to the Manning Camp or he ghosted that. We're in that. We're in that. We're in that. We're in

time where it's just like a lot of bullshit is out there. And I almost feel bad for C.J. Stroud. I mean, I don't know him. I mean, from everything that you've heard, it seems like an upstanding citizen. So have you heard anything about C.J. Stroud? The question I'm opposed it this way, who likes C.J. Stroud? Because after the Panthers didn't want to go that route, now we're like, who likes this dude? Yeah, well, you know, we see this every draft process. we're leading up to the draft, some guy that most people rank high, that you start to get nitpicked. You have some of these weird things come out.

Like with Justin Fields' process, you know, another Ohio state guy that came out recently, was sort of like that. And these nitpicky things were being tossed out. And then he ends up falling down a little bit. So that part of it doesn't surprise me. And to the other part of the question, no team that is super interested in C.J. Stroud

has any incentive whatsoever to convey that to any media contacts right now. because if he starts to fall down, you don't want other teams to know that you're interested in moving up or whatever or to now, you know, if his value indeed is being sort of artificially deflated by market forces for whatever reason is behind that, if you're a team that loves him, you don't want to then, you know, start propping it back up because then you're going to have to negotiate for a trade for the slot form or whatever. But yeah, like what I think is if he does start to just fall a little bit,

Like if he gets outside of the top five to six, I know that I've been told that the Detroit Lions are looking to convey some of the enormous amount of draft equity that they have in this class into next year. I think they're a team that would consider moving down from six to pick up a first rounder next year, you know, moving down just a little bit more. If that doesn't happen, they're certainly going to be trading day three picks for next year's picks, something that they're already thinking about. But yeah, I think that's why you aren't hearing the other side on the C.J. Stroud stuff because the teams that love them, There's no incentive for them to put that out there. Yeah, I think that's a fascinating way to look at. And I agree. I feel like teams right now, you're seeing these last minute, hey, C.J. Stroud, come to town.

We didn't think he would have a chance to get you. He visited with, who is it, Atlanta the other day. I mean, he's, he's been getting these visits really, really quickly. All right, Thor, let's get to a couple. What I want to do is I've, there's a spreadsheet out there. by the Twitter handle at Vegas refund. His name is Luke Swain. And he takes every mock out there that he could find and puts it into basically a spreadsheet

of what players are going to what teams. So I have taken that data and have compiled the list of players that have been mocked to Washington at 16. Right now, about 50% of the mocks have Washington going with a defensive back. but it's not a lock of which defensive back. So let's roll through some of the DBs. And we'll start with Joey Porter Jr. Thor, clearly a guy with bloodlines. His dad was a long-time NFL player, went to Penn State.

I had heard some thoughts out there. Maybe he's dropping a little bit. His over-under, if you're into those types of things, is 16 and a half, but expected to go past that is juice to the over. but as a prospect, what do you think about Joey Porter Jr. and if he were to land in Washington? I'm a big fan of his. I understand why there could be some trepidation with some teams.

It's because he's a very usage-specific kind of player. To me, he's the best press man outside corner, Boundary Corner in this class, better than Christian Gonzalez. He another guy that has to play on the outside press man. But I think Porter is better than that than Gonzalez. first of all, he's longer. Dang near historic length on Joey Porter Jr. I believe his wingspan.

It's the fourth longest going, like in the entire mock draftable database for cornerbacks. It's funny. One of the guys that's above him, it's Julius Brent, is in this class. But prior to this year, there was only two guys that had longer arm length than Joey Porter's. Porter's arm length is the same as Brent's. It's just Brent has a little bit longer wingspan.

You have that. And then he knows how to use that length. It's not just having it. It's like, he reminds me of like, you know, on the train tracks, you have that little mechanism where it changes which way the train is going to go. Yeah, if it switches the other track or whatever. That's what his length is off the line of scrimmage. He gets his hands on wide receivers and he directs them whichever direction he wants them to go,

which invariably is towards the sideline. And what that does, it cuts off all the options for the receiver. When you don't have that real estate and he has inside leverage on you, what are you going to do? You can't cut back to the inside through his body. And Porter, like two of the nitpicks about him, it's that he doesn't have great agility. And then his long speed is just sort of okay. But down the field, he rarely gets burned down the field. It didn't happen too often in the Big Ten because he has sufficient speed and it's buildup speed.

He's sort of a long strider. And the agility thing doesn't manifest as often as you would think because of the reason that I just mentioned. Because he funnels you exactly where he wants you to go. and he cuts off your spacing, which by extension cuts off your options for using that agility in the open field because you're not in the open field. You're between the sideline and Joey Porter with his ridiculous length. So I'm a big fan of his. He does have to clean up a couple of things. He's super duper physical with receivers sometimes gets flagged for being grabby.

That's one thing he's got to watch. And then the other thing is when the ball gets there, he is natural at snapping his head around and then getting those long arms using him like cattle prods to sort of bat that ball down out of the air. I would like to see him convert more of those into interceptions at the catch point because he can get up there with any receiver during the 50-50 balls and stuff like that. And there's no reason that he shouldn't have more interceptions. He dropped a couple at Penn State. But that's the other part of it. But I really like Joey Porter Jr. A couple things to polish off.

But I think there's a clearer path to that than the stuff that you have to polish off of Christian Gonzalez. Yeah, a lot of mocks you see do have Joey Porter Jr. landing 16 to Washington. maybe trade down if there's a need for somebody else and you know you look at the him as well but another guy not mocked a ton and and mostly the mocks have him going after 16 but I know he met with Washington a couple mocks had him going there it's a local product dante banks out of Maryland and this has been one of those buzz names right thor during this process because of how well he tested ran a four three five at the combine so dante banks If his name is called by Roger Goodell on a week from today, what would Washington be getting?

Well, an athletic freak. First off, you know, we talk about the RAS, the size adjusted athletic composite. In that system, there is only one 10 given out per position. So, you know, the free, you know, the guy who tested the best coming into the NFL, like one, you know, going back historically, Deontay Banks got the 10 and the cornerback, you know, he won that during the pre-drop process. And that is very, very apparent on his tape. he's he's the best moving cornerback in this class that the best athlete and very very sticky um he needs to work on more of of the technical stuff and then more specifically the ball scales even more so than

than porter because it is so difficult to shake that guy and you're not beating him in a foot race down the field either but it's we need like the the smoothness you see in his movement you want to start to see that smoothness when the ball is descending um start turning that into ball production and moving the ball the other way. But as far as just a sticky corner and man coverage, he's right near dang the top of this class. Thor, a guy that, and I don't know when your next mock is coming out, so things change.

But I do want to get a discussion on this particular player because you mocked him to Washington last week. Peter Schrager and his most recent mock from the NFL Network had him there. A player that you really like, Dalton Kincaid, tight end, at a Utah. And I was reading through Bob McGinn's write-ups talking to executives and scouts. And he said, or an executive told him that tight end is the strongest position in this draft. So at 16, if it were to be Dalton Kincaid to give Sam Hal or Jacoby Brissette another weapon to go along with those wide receivers of McLaren and Dodson, what would Washington be getting if it were

Dalton Kincaid at 16? Yeah, it's funny that executive said that about the tight end class. First off, I totally agree with that. And it's funny yesterday I put out a tweet about a guy that's a little bit lower down the board, but Tucker Kraft from South Dakota State, and someone had asked me about like this class in comparison to last one. So I thought about it for the first time, you know, like how many of the guys would in this class, would I have ranked T1 in the last class just comparing the grades?

The number is either five or six. Like my top five tight ends or my top. It would be better than last year's class. would have ranked any of them number one over tray mcbride you know who he was the tight end one of my board last year he was the first tight end off the board but i would certainly have craft above him and he's my tight end five certainly everybody above him the the reason i say five or six is musgrave for me would be right around there like i'm going to have them extremely similar they're not extremely similar players but in terms of their overall grade uh and then as far as

zelton kinkade in this nasty tight end class he is my tight end one uh above the res he he he's usage specific in that you're going to have to play him in the slide. You don't want him trying to block the ward daddies in the NFL in line, but he is by far the best receiver in this tight end class. Like Michael Mayer, he was receiving utility. It's in the intermediate area and he doesn't get any separation. So he has to win in the contested situations. He's able to do that in the intermediate area, but he doesn't scare it downfield. And like I said, even in the intermediate stuff, he's not getting any separation. Dalton Kincaid can go downfield and get it. And you can also create separation. He creates it, you know, dang near every single route. And then he has the most

reliable hands in this class. Like, just absolutely stupid hands. I mean, that's sort of what he's gifted with is just those vice grip hands. You know, whether the ball is outside of his frame. Last year, the quarterback he worked with Cameron Rising is, as you know, Timmy, being a college football fan, his placement and accuracy could come and go. But all you got to do is get it anywhere within that sort of Indian God of a catch radius that Duncan Cicade has. And he's coming down with that. right? So you don't need to put it on his frame and you're going to come down with it. You love all that stuff. He's also extremely good after the catch because of the fluid movement, you know, number one. And then he's got some play strength as well. He'll run through an arm tackle.

So you have all that different stuff. Just the ability to push the ball down the field with the tight end. You put him above everybody else in the enormous utility with that. You know, if Washington does go Dalton Kincaid, I'm going to tell Washington fans to go watch the Utah, USC regular season game and you will think that you're going to have the next greatest tight end ever. I mean, that game was Thor one of the most spectacular performances that I, that I saw all last year. And Caleb Williams was on the field the night and he was awesome. You could argue that Dalton Kincaid was the best player on the field that night in Salt Lake City. A thousand percent, yeah. I mean, it was Dalton Kincaid against Caleb Williams.

It was awesome. Partions of that game because, yeah, I mean, Utah. Utah knew that they had to keep up in a firefight. That game took Utah out of their comfort zone, right? Because the way Kyle Whittingham likes to play football, it's more the strong defense and then, you know, the run game and then, and then get the ball to his couple tight ends, whatnot. But in that game, he didn't have that choice because USC was going to score. So they had to keep up in a firefight.

Well, what option did they have other than let's just force targets to Dalton Kincaid? And Tim, like you're mentioning, so they threw it to the ball to him 16 times in that game. He caught all 16 targets, had near 250 yards, had a couple touchdowns. Utah ends up pulling that game out. They wouldn't have been within single digits of USC had Dalton Kincaid not been on the field that day. And another point I've made about this is you go to the Pac-12 title game when there was the rematch, Dalton Kincaid played in that game with a back fracture. That kid's tough as hell.

But because of the damage he had done to USC in the first game, even though he was moving around gingerly on the field. USC was still double teaming him every single time. Well, Dalton Kinca, I mean, he only had like four catches in that game, but just being on the field helped Utah to win again because then all of his other teammates, there was another tight end. I forget the kid's name. He's still in school.

But he got free a couple of times just because USC was throwing multiple guys at Kincaid. So he had a couple long reception. Some of the receivers got involved as well. That's the kind of receiving threat that you have in Dalton Kincaid, where even if he has a back fracture, teams in college were terrified of them. Let me ask you this.

And I don't want to waste too much time on the tight ends, but hey, they catch a ball and people get excited about that. And look, this is a franchise that thought had maybe a big one in Logan Thomas. And now he's been nicked up. But you mentioned this tight end class. And I mentioned the quote that Bob McGinn.

And Bob McGinn, by the way, is Thor, Thor, would you agree maybe the most connected NFL draft guy we've had over the years? I mean, he's, he's, he's pretty spot on with, with the info he gets. He, he's up there. And the thing that I appreciate about McGin Moore, where you have to put him on the top of the list is the willingness to put those, that information and those quotes out publicly. That's the thing where he went further than anybody else.

Because a lot of the other connected guys, they'll just sort of, you know, put it out there with, you know, caveats or, or, you know, in such a way where they can hide the source behind it. McGinn does it in a really cool way where he'll just, you know, say a scout said, A scouts. set, but give you numerous quotes from numerous different perspectives of guys inside those room speaking to the players. So that's the really cool thing about him and obviously very well connected. So what I wanted to bring up here was with the depth of this class in Washington picking at 16, if they want a tight end, let's say they don't go Kincaid. At 47, you would think you could get a pretty damn good tight end if that was the route that they would go too, right? For sure. Yeah. And that's where it comes down to like the three dimensional chest thing of like if we go with this position group that we need, you know, let's say cornerback like we were talking about before.

What what cornerback could we get at our slot in the first round and what, you know, with the tight end, what tight end would then be there in the second round? And then you compare that to the other side of the exercise of if we did it the opposite way, who are the two guys we get. And then you're more or less just comparing the two groups, you know, qualitatively combined what, what, you know, what path would we prefer more. And that's why NFL teams, it's funny. I don't think people out there would know this. They actually look at all the mock drafts. Like Rick Spielman's been very open about this, that they had a data, sort of like the database you were talking about from our buddy VR on Twitter.

The Vikings had a mock draft database with all the different mock drafts, whatever, where they would then use that to go through their scenarios of their mock draft. Teams actually do this. And it gives them real value because, you know, anyone that does these rankings, if you're actually watching all the players doing the work on that and then you're setting up your board, you fall victim to or potentially fall victim to biases with regards to that of, you know, you think that the way that you think about a player that another team might, but you remove all that when you start to look at the aggregated data of those mock draft

draft things. So that that's certainly something that Washington is doing at this point. Their board is probably finalized. I think most of the boards around the NFL are finalized. And now the teams are sitting down to go through the scenarios with the draft only a week away. Well, let's sneak in a couple more because I know you have to run. And I'll revert back to another quote from, from Bob McGinn regarding the offensive line. He said a long in the tooth NFL personnel executive said this. This is the worst offensive line crowd in the history of the draft. Maybe. We have like 15 guys in our top 150 for an entire 32 team league. we need 320 linemen.

He continued, it's so bad. Okay, let's get excited about offensive linemen. Some mock drafts have Roderick drones, Darnell Wright. I even saw Anton Harris at one. It feels like Paris Johnson Jr. Skoronsky definitely gone by 16. At 16, which tackle prospect would be the most intriguing to you if the commanders went O line. Darno, right, if he gets there. And if he doesn't get there, there's a shot that the reason why is because he's hopped Broderick Jones in some team's hierarchy that's picking above them,

which would potentially make Broderick Jones available to you at 16 bite, you know, the kid from Georgia bite. What's interesting about that quote, I don't necessarily disagree. There's there, but like with some context added, like there's not the Orlando Pace in the class, certainly. And then I think that the talent level of the thing drops off a shelf after, you know, if you want to say Bergeron, maybe from Syracuse or Tyler Steen or maybe even Blake Freeland. But to me, there's like nine tackles in this class that I would be interested in getting and developing. And then after that, you know, you're either taking a guy with a higher floor, but no ceiling to speak of, you know, sort of a locked in guy. It's going to be more

of a swing guy in the NFL or else you are swinging for the fences on a guy that has the athletic tools but absolutely didn't prove it in college like a guy from around there that you think about with that is Jalen Duncan would probably be near the top of that list once you get past like the top nine tackles or something like that but yeah like I definitely agree with that but the part of it the draft where it's viable for the offensive linemen I do think you know you're talking you know wherever that dance starts nine or ten you know or nine or 11, whatever. But if the Bears started, I think you go from there into maybe the mid-second round,

maybe even the late second round, but after that, I think that's where the offensive line class gets terrible. And why this is topical to the teams thinking about an offensive lineman in the first round is that might artificially pull up the, you know, where those guys get drafted at the very top. Because the same way we talk about the three-dimensional chess, what we were just doing that exercise of the tight ends in the cornerbacks with Washington, teams are doing that with the other positions as well, of course.

And if you need one of those positions, this, you know, one of the offensive line positions, this is not the year where you can defer it to, oh, hey, we got a mid third round pick. We can just take a guy there and we can plug them into the lineup immediately. You would have to have some real gumshend and some real conviction on a guy way down the board to do that. I don't think this is the class to monkey around with the offensive line. All right. Let's wrap up on this, Thor.

Great stuff. By the way, follow Thor on Twitter at Thor KU. He's busy. He's got other response. So I could talk to him all day. Sadly, I'm not allowed to. I've seen some mocks have Bejohn Robinson going to Washington. I don't know what to do with Bejan Robinson because before you give me where he's on your

big board, it seems like consensus top five, top three player. But we know the value of a running back has sorely been diminished. Washington has Antonio Gibson, has Brian Robinson. to me at 16, if Bejan Robinson is there, there's got to be, oh my God, this guy's number one on our board, but there's also got to be, yeah, but we have Brian Robinson and Antonio Gibson. Are they together just as good as Bejan Robinson? So where do you have Bejan Robinson on your board? And how is his draft day going to go? Because you look at an aggregate of mocks. I've seen Dallas at 26. I've seen Atlanta at 8. No one knows where the hell of Bejan Robinson. is going to go. Yeah, the two teams you just, I was asked about this last night. To me, that is the window. For the Bejohn watch, it starts with the Atlanta pick at eight, and he ain't dropping further than Dallas. Obviously, you know, staying in the home state and

Dallas has a running back knee, whatever. It is going to be somewhere within those picks. But to your question, it's really hard to peg which team. Like, will Atlanta actually spend a top 10 pick on a running back? I wouldn't, especially a team that has that many holes, but they definitely could. With Washington, if it was me, I would look at to, you know, do the other holes. I would prioritize some of those other positions that we were talking about. But like for me, where Bijan is going to be on my board, I don't do it like some of those other guys.

I do it more like an NFL team where I stack my board based on if I was up in that slot, that's where I picked that guy. But when you put Bejon in the top five, what you're saying is, you know, we're ranking by how good they are at their position, probably not necessarily by the value of like if I was on the board at three. I would take Bejohn Robinson at three. I don't do it like that because if you do it that way, you have to take it all the way. And for instance, when Sebastian Jayneikowski came out of Florida State, you would have had to rank him one or two because he's such a good kicker in comparison to all the other, you know, kickers, whatever. That's not how you do it. So I'm going to

have him in the 20s, even though, you know, in terms of just seeing the same thing that other folks are seeing that rank him higher. I see that. It's just you're not going to take that guy in the top five. All right. I'm going to sneak in one more prospect real quickly. another DB. Brian Branch, terrible safety class. What does he project to? And if Washington went Branch at 16, should fans be excited? For me, it would just be the slightest of reaches, but not enough where I would quibble with it too much. And your point is well taken. It is a terrible safety class. Like I like that kid for me and I'm a little bit too, but not enough to go in the first round. He didn't test very well Antonio Johnson. I think he's a second round pick. I don't know if there's going to be

another safety taken in the second round. Like we might only have two safeties off the board heading into round three. And yeah, Branch is clearly above all these different guys. Branch didn't test the best, but I compare him. He reminds me so much of a kid from the last class. And it's interesting because Branch ain't sneaking up on anybody, but the guy that I compare him to did, a guy that I was pounding the table for all last spring.

He ends up going in the second round. And he was fabulous as a rookie. Jalen Petrie, they're basically the exact same. guy. Jalen, both of them play in the slot. So, you know, in the nickel roll, whatever. So it's not really instructive to think of them as a traditional safety. They could both do it.

You know, Branch, he could do the deep stuff if you wanted. But like at Alabama, he was just in the nickel roll taken on the opposing team slot every single time. And that's what you want him to do. Because his special sauce, he does not miss tackles. He's also willing to take on offensive line. And he'd be happy to crash down every time and run support, whatever. But like the tackling.

efficiency on that guy. It's a legitimate superpower. Just so dang efficient and he saves so many yards by, you know, by his tackling efficiency, whatnot. And then he saw it in coverage too. I mean, you don't want him on the outside against juiced up guys. It's part of the reason why Alabama had him playing in the nickel. But that's what you're getting out of him. And in terms of that kind of prospect, yeah, the value of that to me, it's a late first round guy. I mean, that's where I had Petrie last year. I think I had him like 24, 25 on my board. Brian Branch is going be right around there. Yeah, maybe a trade down for Washington. You get branch in the early 20s, but you always need a dance partner. Thor, you got to get out of here. Thank you so much. Fantasy

pros at Thor KU. He always puts out all his stuff there. Top-notch analysis, Thor. You're the man. Appreciate it. Appreciate you, Timmy. All right. We're talking Wizards. Tommy Shepard is out. Josh Robbins from the Athletic. We'll tell us what's next. Coming up next right here on the Sheehan podcast. Welcome back in to the Kevin Sheehan podcast, Tim Murray sitting in for Kevin as he takes some time off and happy to bring in Josh Robbins, who covers the Wizards for The Athletic. You can follow Josh on Twitter at Joshua B. Robbins. Josh, you know, just the news coming out yesterday that Tommy Shepard, part of the franchise for two decades. And, you know, once again, me being from afar and removed from from the wizard seen as much as I have been here these past couple of years.

Did this come as a surprise to you that the move was made by Ted Leonis now when everything that was brought up was, well, Ernie Grunfeld seemed to have nine lives like a cat and Tommy Shepard is out relatively quickly, you know, based off of previous timelines of Ted Lianzis. No, it wasn't a surprise. This has been something that's been rumored in NBA circles for more than a season and a half. But the timing surprised me a little bit that it occurred 10 days after the end of the regular season. If the team was going to retain Tommy Shepard, one thinks that this could have been a decision made earlier. If the decision to fire him was going to be made, I think this could have been made earlier. But that's almost

irrelevant now because for the time being, the Wizards are the only team that has a GM opening. And that's a big advantage for them. That's a big advantage for them. Can you make an argument? I saw this just kind of being put out there because in the open, I talked about something that Kevin alluded to on his podcast, I think it was last week, about, look, they're irrelevant right now in town, and across the country. And, you know, it almost felt like there was a complacency. Bill Simmons, you know, went on his podcast and said they were the dumbest team in the league this year for how they kind of went about things.

So could you make, and I think I know your answer, but could you say that this is a step in the right direction for this organization? It's certainly given fans a shot in the arm, a jolt, because there's a very substantial portion of this fan base that has lost hope, has lost hope. is lost hope. But that kind of jolt in the arm can be fleeting if the wrong hire is made. So I think the chance, so it's been a benefit so far PR-wise that this move has been made. I think they're going to win the press conference, depending on who it is they hire.

But two years from now, three years from now, four years from now, if the new hire fails again, then the irrelevance will only compound and the hopelessness will get worse. Yeah, no, that's a fair way to put it. Let's get to the personnel. Well, we'll start with the coach. Reports out there, West Unselt is safe heading into next year. But that all being said, he can't feel all that comfortable knowing that it just missed the playoffs again and you're going to have a new sheriff in town.

So where are you with the job security? It may be safe for 23, 24, but long term for West Sunsel, Jr. This kind of situation where a new GM is working with a coach he did not hire is typically one fraught with problems. Certainly the incumbent coach is under a great deal scrutiny because the coach is not the GM's guy. just isn't. Now, the caveat here is if the wizard's higher, higher, excuse me, Tim Conley. Tim Connolly and Wes Anso Jr. are very close going back roughly two decades. So there would be a comfort level there. But if it's anyone else, then it has the makings for an uncomfortable year for Wes Ansoe Jr. and his coaching staff. Yeah. And well, you mentioned Tim Conley.

And, you know, he has been, I feel like, forever rumored to be headed to Washington at some point. You know, it's so early in the process here. But do you think Tim Conley has a chance? I know he's got the gig in Minnesota. And, you know, the trade with Rudy Gobert looks like, in my opinion, is going to be one of the worst trades in the history of the NBA. But, you know, are there, is that going to be the first? call that Ted Leonsis makes in your opinion? If not the first, then certainly the second.

Yeah. There's no doubt in my mind that that's a call that gets made. And I would also think that they would inquire about Masayu Jiri. Who's got a better resume than Missai Ujiri? Now, I also think that Masayu Jiri's got a great gig going in Toronto, and I wonder if the Wizards could afford to hire him and give him equity. in monumental sports. But I think

those are two of the three names I hear most being bandied about within the industry. How attractive is this job? There are only 30 of these. So that's in the wizard's but all things considered

compared to the majority of the others, not vary. Not vary. For a variety of reasons. One of which... Can I interrupt How much is the Beal contract a part of the not very attractiveness of this job? That's a part of it.

But more so, I think there are questions as to what degree of autonomy the new hire will have. Will that person have full autonomy to run the basketball operations department and potentially trade, Brad, if that's what the individual wants to do, knowing that there's already a no trade clause and that Ted Leonis has at least up. until this point wanted Brad with the Wizards? That's question number one. And by the way, when I say autonomy, I think it's reasonable for a franchise owner to have the final call on whether the team goes into the luxury tax. I'm saying full autonomy up to that point. That's part one. Part two is that they have a kind of an organizational structure within monumental sports in which the head of the Wizards basketball operations department doesn't oversee medical. Medical operates within its own silo, and there's a dotted line cooperative relationship there,

but very few incoming general managers would want the structure that's in place now within monumental sports. That's just not something that would almost be a non-starter, all other things equal. So those are some strikes against it. And then I think in terms of the facilities race, there is a facility's arms race going on within the league. And the practice facility that the Wizards have is nowhere near the best in the league. As a matter of fact, there are at least two teams in the division that far outpace the Wizards in that line.

The Hawks and the Orlando Magic. So these are all strikes against this being an attractive job. But, and I have to say the, but Tim Conley started with the Wizards. He's from Baltimore. He went to college in D.C. He was an intern with the Wizards as a college student. So it's been said that running the Wizards has been one of his career aspirations. So I will be fascinated to see if this is the time when stars align between him and Ted Liances.

Do you think, and I don't know if you know the answer to this when it comes to Tim Conley, because he just got to town, right? He just got to Minnesota. They're in the midst of a playoff series. They're down 02 and they might get swept, even though last night was a ton of fun to watch with Anthony Edwards. It's not a five-year deal, a whole lot of money. but he did make that Rudy Gobert trade. And this is pure speculative on my part with new owners.

Sometimes you see a push for new owners to say, hey, you've got to make a splash. That Rudy Gobert trade is going to hamstring that organization. In my opinion, for a long, long time, do you think that there is some doubt creeping in there with Tim Conley saying, I was forced to make this trade, I didn't want to do it? Now we don't have picks for it feels like a decade. Rudy Gobert can't win in the playoffs.

Do you think there is doubt creeping in there for Tim Conley that he could be looking for a potential, you know, out, even though he just got to Minnesota last summer? I don't know. I wish I could answer it. I've never met Tim. So I, if I were to answer, I would be speaking out of school just out of total ignorance.

All right. I'll say it because I'm a, I'm a radio host. So I'm allowed to speculate on those types of things there. You're the reporter. You're the true journalist here. But all right, let's get to things that you might know the answer to because. Thank you. Well, we'll see about that.

You know, do you look at this roster? We know about the Beal deal. There was speculation, deadline. Okay, they're going to move Coosma. They're going to move Porzengis. Neither of those happen. Both players have a player option. Let's talk with Coosma because it seems pretty obvious that Coosma will not pick up that player option

because I think it's around, what, 13 million? So he certainly would be. able to get a lot more, whether it be from the Wizards or whether it would be elsewhere around the league, personally, and for people listening that have hopes that the Wizards can, you know, get back to, I don't know what they were, I don't know what that is, but paying Kyle Kuzma massive amount of money, to me, signals complacency. What do you anticipate? And I guess you don't know the answer because we don't have a GM, but, or they don't have a GM, but the Kuzma situation is his likelihood of staying now less that Tommy Shepard has been fired?

I think so. And that's one of the most fascinating things of this whole situation. There's no, you could, no one could convince me that the Wizards and Kuzma's representative did not have an understanding about what it would take to resign him in unrestricted free agency this summer. before the trade deadline. In other words, I didn't quite say that well. We talked about the differences between a beat writer and a radio host. You speak much better and more clearly than I do. There is no way that Tommy Shepard would have kept Kyle Kuzma at that before the trade deadline if Tommy Shepard felt

like there was a real chance Kuzma was going to walk in free agency. And now that Tommy Shepard is gone, what would that do to any understanding that's in place between Kuzma's agent and Kuzma and the team? That's a rhetorical question. I don't know. But it's certainly the likelihood of him returning, I would have to say, is less than it was last week. Yeah. And for me, and Josh, I don't know, this isn't a knock on Kyle Kuzma. I think he's a fine place. I think he's a fine player, but is, you know, not to quote Spencer Dinwiddie here, but I don't know if he's a top three on your roster type of guy to win a championship. Now, he did win a championship, of course, as the number three with the Lakers, but LeBron and AD aren't on this roster. So,

that's right. So yeah, I think that's fascinating. And then the Porzingis angle played really well this year, stayed relatively healthy for, for his standards. And he's got a $36 million player option. And I don't know what the market is for him. You know, we saw Russell Westbrook this past summer pick up his player option. Not a shock because who was going to pay him that amount of money. Do you think there are people around the league, teams around the league, that would look to kick the tires on Porzingis? Or do you think ultimately him picking up his option is likely at that price tag?

Yeah. Up until this week, and I don't think his calculus would really change. I would have thought that they were moving toward an extension. In fact, Tommy Shepard and Porzingis' agent, Jeff Schwartz, had been talking about an extension. Shams had reported that weeks ago. And so any progress made there is, I would think, gone. Yeah.

Right? Because one party there has lost the other negotiating partner. I have to give credit where it's due. ESPN's Bobby Marks said it best. He wrote this somewhere over the last month or two. He said, with regarding Porzingis, how high would the wizard be willing to go and who exactly are they bidding against?

The bidding against part is exactly what you just stated to him. And given his injury history, I can't think that his value within the league is that high. even as well as he played this past year. So talk about something on your plate from the get-go, whoever it is who comes in here to D.C. That's, if not question 1A, it's question 1B or 1C. Well, it is a fascinating time and, you know,

living in that city for as long as I did. and the complacency that the fan base has felt, I think you said it best. This is kind of a shot in the arm where it could certainly go sour, which is the risk you have to take. But I think this is the hope, Josh, that maybe this is the turning of a page, if you have to burn it down to the studs, whatever it may be.

So we'll see how it all plays out here. Josh, I appreciate the time. Really good stuff. Follow Josh on Twitter at, Joshua B. Robbins covering the Wizards for the athletic. Josh, thanks so much. Enjoy the GM search. Thanks. That's Joshua Robbins.

Thanks to Thorneisstrom. Tim Murray filling in for Kevin Shee and thanks to all of you. I will be back on Friday. Kevin back on Monday.