The Kevin Sheehan Show - Trent "Fires" Bruce

Episode Date: December 6, 2019

Kevin opens the show with the Cowboys' loss last night in Chicago and then gets to the Washington Post story on Trent Williams/Bruce Allen. He has 4 "Smell Test" picks including one of them for the Redskins-Packers game. He brings on Jeff Ermann from Inside Maryland Sports to talk Terps' hoops. He finishes the show with Tim Murray/NBC Sports "The Daily Line" on tomorrow's college football championship games and a Skins-Green Bay prediction. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. Aaron's here, and I am here. We're going to have Jeff Erman on the show today to talk Maryland basketball. We're going to have Tim Murray on the show to talk college football, but a lot to get to last night's Cowboys game. Oh, my God, what fun it is to watch the Cowboys implode. They may ultimately, make the playoffs. Maybe Aaron with a 6 and 10 record. That is in play. You realize that, right? Yes, I do realize that. They could actually make the playoffs with a 6 and 10 record. That's not

going to happen more likely than not. 7 and 9 is becoming more likely. 7 and 9 is almost probable at this point. I think 8 and 8's probable, but 7 and 9 is very much in play. The NFC East has never had a division winner with less

than 9 wins. And only twice in the NFC East history going back to the merger in 1970 when the NFC East was created. And actually it may have been the year after that. 71 may have been the first year of the NFC East. They were called different things. But anyway, since the merger, the NFC East has not had a division winner since the division format with less than nine wins. And only twice has there been a nine and 17. One of those was the Redskins in 2015. And then the Giants in 2011 ended up winning the Super Bowl after winning the division with a 9 and 7 mark. 8 and 8, 7 and 9 this year in the NFC East.

It is the worst division in all of football, and it's not even close. You know, we have our own big hot mess here. Dallas's mess is not nearly as unstable or unfit or completely, you know, in tatters like the mess we have here. But Jerry Jones's biggest flaw is the reason the Cowboys, you know, are not of championship caliber and haven't been for a long, long time. His biggest flaw is he needs the credit when things go well, which he did not get when Jimmy was here, which is why Jason Garrett and other insignificant figures for the most part have been cowboy coaches since Jimmy left, and Barry Switzer was there for a brief period of time. You know, Jason Garrett's been the coach for this.

long because he's unassuming. He's considered to be insignificant to the team's success when they have it. And he's always the biggest reason for their failures. It's not Jerry. It's the coach. Jerry hated the credit Jimmy got. And that's why he's had Jason Garrett for so long. He's going to have to make a different move because, you know, the Cowboys are not a championship caliber franchise. They are a mess too. And I have to remind many of my cowboy friends, Cowboy Clay and I, and I mentioned this on radio this morning. We have a 24-hour rule. We are friends. He's a cowboy fan. I'm a Redskin fan. We have a 24-hour rule where we cannot call the other or text the other after a team's loss. So I'm going to refrain from reaching out

to him until about 1130 tonight. That'll be 24 hours. My buddy Kenny, who is a huge cowboy fan, my friend Kevin. I have several friends who are Cowboy fans, are a lot of them around here. We all know that. I would remind all of them, you know, when they talk about how they get a kick and how they get a laugh out of Redskin fans talking about our storied history,

as if the Redskins championship success was like so long ago and theirs wasn't, cowboy fans, it's been 23 years since you won the Super Bowl. 23. You've won three playoff games in the last 22 years. Three. The Redskins have won two over the same period of time. It's basically the same. One more, one more playoff game you've won.

One of them you shouldn't have won. You got lucky beaten the Lions. Whatever year that was, 2014, 2015. Now, Dallas has had many more legitimate regular seasons. You know, they've won 13 games a few times. they've won 12 games a few times, but they aren't any more championship caliber than the Redskins. And I was thinking about this when I started talking about this this morning on radio. Just imagine, you know, where the Redskins and the Cowboys are today and where they've been over the last 22 years.

You know, there was a three-decade, three-and-a-half decade stretch there where, you know, the Cowboys and the Redskins were among the most successful franchises in all of the NFL. And, you know, them contending for championships was almost a gift. One of the two contending for a championship, you know, in any given year was probably even money. You know, maybe a little bit longer shot than that, but I mean, they had a run. And now for 22 years, neither one of them has played in an NFC championship game. Neither one of them has been even a participant in the NFC championship game, and they only have five combined playoff wins to their credit. It's really, really remarkable.

the downward spirals of two of the sports iconic and storied franchises. The Cowboys, again, they're not the same mess the Redskins are. I would take Jerry Jones right now as the owner of the Redskins if it meant we could swap out Dan Snyder and company. I think all of you would too, but he's not a good owner. The Cowboys aren't championship caliber. They're not a championship franchise anymore. It's been nearly a quarter century.

and I think a lot of that's on Jerry. The team is not well coached. They've got talent. They've done a decent job of acquiring players. They're going to probably end up winning this division because Philadelphia is really bad too. And they're going to be one and done. They're going to lose a home game to whoever. So they would be the four seed.

So they play the five seed. And the five seed is going to be either Seattle or San Francisco, Aaron, right? More likely than not. Yes. And they can't beat either one of those two teams, even if the game's at home. One other quick note before I get to this Trent Williams stuff, which we're going to get to.

And I've got a smell test today and, again, some guests as well. So we spent time talking about the LeBron James travel yesterday. And then there was the coming out onto the floor at the end of the game, waving his towel with two minutes left in the game, when Kyle Kuzma had back-to-back block shots. and he was, you know, he was out of line, really. He was on the floor. There's no problem if you're going to cheer on your teammate from the bench,

you know, or even if you've got one foot, you know, on the sideline or one foot on the end line and the actions nowhere near you. He came out onto the floor. He was nearly a participant in the game. And it was, you know, one of those things that the Utah announcers in calling it, they called it and referred to it as disrespectful. And a lot of people, including me and Tommy, had a problem with this and talked about it. It was a big topic yesterday in the sports world, a big topic yesterday.

And it was a big topic because there's sort of this sense of entitlement that LeBron has. You know, like he's untouchable. Like, I can come out onto the floor during a basketball game that's being played and do whatever the hell I want to do. He should have been teed up. He should be fined for what he did. you know, some of you said, somebody tweeted me yesterday, actually somebody texted me yesterday, a friend of mine said,

when you were describing this, I thought it was at the other end of the floor. And he was just out like, you know, it would be like being in a gym during a pickup game and the action's going on on one end of the floor and you're shooting, you're taking some shots on the other end. And then once the action starts to come in your direction, you sprint off the floor,

he was picturing that whole scenario, you know? Like LeBron's down there and the action. on the other end? No, no, no. And then he said, no, I didn't realize it was actually on that end of the floor that they were sitting that he was out on the floor. It was absurd. And I don't know that it was intentionally disrespectful, as the Utah announcer said, but it was just clownish. It was entitled to me, and it should have been teed up. Anyway, LeBron responded to all the criticism yesterday. Did you see his Instagram response? I did. So LeBron puts out this Instagram, and I'm going to read it to you.

He wrote, imagine doing your job at the highest level to where you're not needed anymore. He's, of course, referring to how well he played and the fact that they had a big lead, and that's why he was on the bench, patting himself on the back about how high a level he played, doing his job at a high level to where you're not needed anymore. That's how the Instagram starts. And then he writes, giving your shoes to a little girl and boy who you inspire and hoped you'd made proud that night. So he talks about the shoes that he took off, which is why he was in his socks when he came out under the floor,

because he'd given those shoes to a girl and boy in the crowd who he clearly inspires. And he hopes that he made them proud that night, which I'm sure he did because he played at a very high level, so much so that his team didn't even need him anymore. He continues. Then cheering on your teammates because you love seeing them succeed more than yourself, only to be criticized while doing it. I mean, LeBron's always been the guy that is a great facilitator, sets up his teammates, makes his teammates look great.

Now he's telling you that he loves cheering on his teammates because he loves seeing them succeed more than himself, only to be criticized while doing it. Well, let me just make it really clear here. I did not criticize him for cheering on his teammates at all. And I think he knows that most people weren't criticizing him for cheering on his teammates. Even though I do have a hunch, a hunch, that it's somewhat phony, right? It's Kyle Kuzma.

It's not the guy at the end of the bench that never gets into the game, that everybody's up at the end of the bench, all the starters, you know, waving towels. When Charlie, you know, Charlie Hustle at the end of the bench finally gets in the game and makes a shot, this was Kyle Kuzma. He's a great player. He just happened to have still been in the game. And he blocked a couple of shots and you have that reaction up 20 with two minutes to go. Seems a bit phony to me.

But whatever, that's not what I was criticizing yesterday. That's not what most people were criticizing yesterday. He continues, people, it's the world we live in. And you can't let it ever stop you from your purpose in life. Negativity, bad energy, hate, envy, et cetera, et cetera, will try to bring you down throughout your journey, and it's up to you on how you handle it. I handle it by simply saying thank you with a smile on my face and continue to push forward while doing it. Live, laugh, love, and then he's got a bunch of positive emojis that follow that.

That's his Instagram. Just to be clear here, he says, I handle it by simply saying thank you with a smile on my face. Well, that's not how he handled it, right? He handled the criticism with a lengthy Instagram post. If he handled it that way, he would have had an Instagram post that simply said, thank you with a smiling emoji. But he didn't. He gave you some self-congratulations that he had played at a super high level to where he wasn't needed anymore.

To more self-congratulations about how he made a little girl and boy super happy because he inspires them and hopes that he made them proud. To more self-congratulation about how he cheers on his team. teammates, because he wants to see them succeed more than even himself, and then he goes on and on and on. Look, this isn't, and he knows this, this is total flim-flam on his part. This is creating a narrative that did not exist yesterday. Nobody criticized him for cheering on a teammate. Nobody criticized him for giving shoes to a little girl or boy in the crowd. I didn't. I didn't hear anybody that did. What we criticized LeBron for was coming out onto the floor, okay, five feet inside the sideline,

a couple of feet inside the baseline, four and a half feet away from the action going on right in front of him. That's the criticism, is that you should have been teed up for it. You should be fine for it. Can't come out onto the floor. you can take a step over the line when the action's on the other end. You can't do what he did unless, of course, he's LeBron. And he got away with it. And he felt like he could get away with it.

And that's why he did it. That's what the criticism was for. And he knows that. He's smart. He's savvy. He's also incredibly needy. So needy. And has been that way forever.

It's one of, to me, his least redeeming characteristics, because God is he a great player. One of the greatest ever. Not Magic or Michael, in my view. That's a debate we've had before, and I'm sure we'll have it again. But man, is he a great player? And he's playing at an unbelievable level this year. He seems to be into it this year, and he was injured last year, but he is needy. I think most mature people recognize that about LeBron. But, you know, it's a matter of perspective, I'm sure. All right, I want to get to this Trent Williams thing right after I read you this about my bookie.ag. Lamar Jackson's having just an incredible season.

And if you played Lamar Jackson early in the year to win the MVP, you got it at 50 to 1, Aaron, 50 to 1. Imagine that. You know what? It wouldn't have been a terrible flyer to take. After listening to Harbaugh in the summer about how we're going to be. to play football like no other NFL team has ever played football before and we're going to we're designing everything around Lamar it actually would not have been it's easy to say it now but if somebody told me they they bet Lamar Jackson at 50 to 1 early in the year and use those reasons it it makes sense

we never really did a big prop segment before the season started actually I think we did we did a little back no I had given out Josh Jacobs that rookie of the year for at 9 to 1 which looking good right now not looking that bad. That's what it was, 9 to 1? Yeah. Good for you. Yeah, I played some props at the beginning of the year. I played Pittsburgh to make the playoffs. I'll tell you what those props were right now, because they are sitting right in my account here, which I will pull up very quickly. I know I played Denver to get to the playoffs and win the division. That's not going to work out. Hold on for one second. Here were my props. You ready? I played the Broncos over seven wins. I could potentially get a push on that.

They're four and eight with four to go. They'd have to win three of their final four to get a push. I played the Seahawks to make the playoffs at plus 145. That looks good. Remember, I picked them to win the division. I picked the Steelers to make the playoffs at minus 120. And I had the Broncos to make the playoffs at plus 325. So that's not going to work.

So I've got a chance on three of the four, but I have a really good chance on two of the four. The Seahawks are going to make the playoffs. That's almost going to cover at plus 145. Well, it'll cover two of the three other losses. But if the Steelers make the playoffs, I'll actually win money on all these wagers. Anyway, back to my bookie. If you're looking for a place to wager, bet futures, you know, you can still bet on some of this stuff. They're still available to bet on the MVP race, to bet on division winners.

But if you're looking for a place to bet the UFC card next week, three championship fights on the 14th, all highly anticipated, all in the betting capital of the world, Las Vegas, Nevada, go to my bookie.ag. My bookie right now will match your deposit halfway all the way up to $1,000. That means if you deposit $2,000, you'll get an extra $1,000 in free money to play with. All you have to do is use my promo code, Kevin, D.C., K-E-V-N-D-C, to activate the offer. Once that's activated, you can go ahead and play. MyBooky.ag, use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. All right, let's get to this Trent Williams story. If you missed it, Les Carpenter in the Post, had this story yesterday.

I was not looking for Trent Williams story. I'd really put it on the back burner until March until hopefully they trade him. But Les Carpenter not only had Trent Williams with a lot of quotes, he had Bruce Allen quoted in this story. Real quickly, the story was a lengthy story, a lengthy interview that he did with Trent Williams, where Williams is critical of just about everything, critical of the leadership, critical of Bruce Allen,

accuses Bruce Allen of retaliating against him for holding out, blames Bruce Allen for the team's failure to succeed over the last decade, and describes his own feelings of betrayal by the team after playing through a ton of injuries, only to be left, as Les Carpenter wrote, fearing for his life, the cancer scare, with the growth on his scalp. So I'm going to read some of these quotes, and I'm going to get to the key pieces here. And I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because there are some things in here that are interesting. But at the end of the day, the net of it is the Redskins really screwed up.

They really screwed up by not dealing this guy, because these stories, that are coming out and they may continue, would not be coming out if he were playing for another team. There may have been an initial press conference, and Williams may have talked about some of the stuff he talked about at the end of October when he did the press gathering out at Redskins Park, but you wouldn't have this. So here's some key quotes from Trent Williams. I don't see how it can be reconciled. At the end of the day, I'm a human being. I ain't like a dog that you can slap shit out of me, and I'm going to come back the next morning with my tail wagging. This was a conscious decision. They didn't burn the bridge by accident. This was something they felt comfortable doing,

so I got to feel comfortable with moving on. He also describes to Les Carpenter that he did come back minutes before the 4 p.m. deadline on October 29th, not to collect the $5.9 million that they owed him the rest of the year, which they didn't pay him because he went on the non-football injury list, but because he wanted to get credit for the 2019 season to have it count as one of the two remaining years on his contract. If he hadn't gotten in by 4 p.m., the Redskins could have made sure that he still had two years left when he came back next year. He also revealed this. He says he can only feel about 60% of his haircut. And when he puts pressure on his head, he feels tingling and a burning sensation, said the doctor who did the operation told him it might take as long

as 18 months for the burning to go away. And while Williams' carpenter rights had been cleared to play, he needed a helmet that wouldn't make his head feel as if it were on fire. You do have to wonder whether or not if they had traded him, if he would have passed a physical. But my sense of it is, had he been traded to the Patriots, he would have passed that physical and they would have found a helmet that fit him. Now, he said this as well. He said, said that Bill Callahan was helping him get a custom-made helmet from Rydell that would have been more comfortable. And it was supposed to arrive the Monday after the team's buy week. And the team placed him on the league's non-football injury list a couple of days before the helmet was to arrive. And he said,

quote, it was kind of a vindictive move. It just showed their hand on how they wanted to operate. I mean, I had until Tuesday, and the new helmet Rydell was talking about was coming in on Monday. So for them to prematurely put me on the list without taking time to see if the helmet would work goes to show you that they didn't really want me to play anyway. He thinks that the Redskins also try to trick him into not reporting. This is where it gets a little crazy. He said Williams is sure that Bruce Allen wanted him not to return

so that the team could claim that he had two years last. on his contract and potentially get more value in an off-season trade. And he says that Alan ignored calls and messages from his agent in the days and hours before the trade deadline, hoping to trick Williams into not reporting. He said, quote, he didn't say anything because he wanted the four o'clock to pass by, because if I didn't report by four, he could challenge to keep me for two years instead of one. that rings not very true for me. All of these people knew what the deadlines were.

Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder and the Redskins organization didn't think that Trent Williams didn't know when he had to report by to get the seasoned account as a contract year. I think that's a little bit of a reach. I also think it's very interesting that they were looking for this helmet. Remember all of the reporting was that Trent Williams was never going to, to play for the Redskins and it made that very clear to everybody. And yet, what he is suggesting with Bill Callahan working with Rydell to come up with a helmet is that he was ready to play.

Well, that's a little bit of a change from where the story was back at the end of October. And then he had this one. Quote, it just goes to show you how behind the times Alan is and he still tries to use that money to hold it over black athletes. Closed, quote. Allen was asked about that particular allegation and others, and Alan called them, quote, comical. He said that Williams, quote, elected to stay away from the Redskins facility with his holdout, and that Williams himself told reporters upon his return that he had a non-football injury.

He also pushed back, Bruce Allen did, on Williams' suggestion that he hoped that Williams wouldn't report by the 4 p.m. trade deadline, saying Williams and his agent had told the team team since the spring that he did not intend to come back and play. That is, by the way, revealing of Bruce Allen one of his lies because Bruce Allen told us that Trent Williams, he expected Trent Williams in for OTAs. He expected Trent Williams in for minicamp. He expected Trent Williams in for training camp. He expected Trent Williams in for the beginning of the regular season. Remember that?

Bold face lie. because he said that Williams and his agent told the team back in the spring that he did not intend on coming back, which really, really makes not trading him insane. There's more to this. Williams admitted that he and Daniel Snyder haven't spoken since he was put on the non-football injury list, and that makes him sad. Because he made it a point at the end of October when he first met with the media about this to not throw Dan under the bus,

but to direct his ire towards Bruce Allen, to blame Bruce Allen for all of this. So the other thing that I just wanted to read to you real quickly is Williams had some comments just about the organization and the losing with the organization, and that he's not the first to have had issues with the organization saying, what about Kirk Cousins? What about Preston Smith? Like, look at these guys that also aren't here anymore. And he said, quote,

there's no shortcuts to the top. It's a long, grueling road, and right now I don't even feel like the organization is on a road. It's on a track that's going in circles. You get to a point where you say, all right, we're about to break through, and then in less than a year, you're back to rebuilding. And on Bruce Allen's overall record of 395 winning percentage,

6293 and 1 is what Carpenter writes. If you count the playoff losses, it's 6295.1. quote, I just don't understand. He says, in any business world, when the employer has someone who is underperforming, he finds another one. I don't know in the last 10 years if there's a worse record for someone who has held their job for 10 years and perform the way they performed and still have a job. I don't know. That would be a good thing to look up and see who else is in that company. I would be thrilled to find out. Bruce Allen about that particular comment from Trent Williams. Quote, I'm much more concerned about the Green Bay Packers than that, close quote. Bruce Allen, you're the one that told us that everybody's accountable for their record,

the person that comes in and cleans the building, the salespeople, the administrative assistance, etc. That record's on you too, bro. You're not preparing for the Packers. Your coaching staff and your players are. There could have been a better answer to that. But anyway, so the net of it is this on this particular Trent Williams discussion. It just makes me so angry.

because not trading him made all of these stories and the ones that will come possible. If they had traded him, he may have had an introductory press conference at his new place where he would have referred to the cancer and referred to the six years or whatever, and that would have been it. The black athlete comment, that particular quote where Trent Williams says, it just goes to show how behind the times Bruce Allen is. He still tries to use that money to hold it over black. athletes, you know, wow. I mean, whether true or not, okay, it's out there now. And he needs more

proof to make it true in my mind. I don't, I think Bruce Allen's a lot of things. I don't know that that enters his mind in these particular things. I don't know that it doesn't either. I just don't know. But you say something like that, you should have a couple of other examples of it because he's just throwing it out there. But here's the thing. When you throw something like that out there. It's out there. You know, the perception becomes almost reality, especially when you're an organization that is a bottom feeder and has a reputation like the one the Redskins have. Look, the Redskins have thrown out information before that may or may not have been true to try to embarrass somebody. Look at what they did Scott McLuhan when they leaked those quotes to the Washington

Post about what a complete and utter, you know, inebriated drunk he was all the time at work and how embarrassing he was. True or not. People remember those quotes. You know, they do. And then they move on with their lives and they don't have time to actually do all of the legwork to find out if it's true or not. But what all of this just comes back to for me is I think Trent Williams is leaving out big portions of the story. That's my gut feel. I don't know that for sure. I don't think anybody knows anything for sure on this. I think Trent Williams should have actually reported to the Redskins and collected a lot of money this year on Injured Reserve. I think that would have been smarter for him. I think he also should have been fine with the investigation that the NFLPA and the league was going to put together an

independent investigation of this whole situation. He should have not stopped that. I think it was suspicious that he did. And I think that even if it had been revealing of something that would have been, would have changed his story or would have been in conflict with his story, we wouldn't have heard about it for like another year. And he would have been in a new place and it wouldn't it mattered anymore. But here's what I also think. My God, the Redskins, seriously, how they didn't trade somebody like this, given all the potential that this thing had. They are so petty, they're so small-minded. They're the biggest dunces on the planet for not trading Trent Williams. They have no vision on where this was going or where it could go. They have no recognition ever about whether or not

the juice, as Tommy says, is worth the squeezing. No common sense. I said this morning, they've got no IQ, they've got no EQ. They just don't get it. And this is, I don't know who's really at fault for this, but I know this, they could have avoided all of this. And they could have had a lot back for them in the meantime. Let's get to the smell test.

Kevin looks where the John Q public is putting their cash and does the opposite. It's time for the smell test. Four plays, five, if you count last night. I gave out Chicago plus three, so we got off to a good start. I'm one game under 500, after being 26 over 500, I think at one point. So tomorrow I don't love the card, but Georgia's a big anti-public play. The public loves LSU laying seven. Take Georgia plus the seven.

I don't feel great about it in terms of the analysis of the game. I think LSU is really good. I think George is excellent defensively, but they can't. can't score, and I think they're going to have to score to keep it within seven. But Vegas knows that, too, and they haven't moved the line. It's just been sitting there at seven all week. Take Georgia plus the seven. Miami of Ohio in the Mac championship game is getting six and a half. Buy it to seven. I like Miami of Ohio tomorrow. And then let's get to Sunday. Guess who's in the smell test this week? The Washington Redskins. Plus 13 at Green Bay.

Biggest public play on the NFL card this Sunday or the Packers laying 13. I'll take the Redskins plus the 13. And then the Jets, after getting absolutely run by Cincinnati last week for the Bengals' first win, and the dolphins beating the Eagles. The Jets are laying five and a half at home against Miami. I think they destroy Miami Sunday. Take the Jets minus five and a half. I'd lean Rams.

I'd also probably lean Hawaii on Saturday. But there you go. The smell test is Georgia plus seven, Miami of Ohio plus six and a half by the half point to get it to seven. The Redskins plus 13 and the Jets minus five and a half with a strong lean on the Rams and probably Hawaii. I sort of am leaning Wisconsin too, but four plays to go with the Bears last night, which were a winner. All right, there you go. That's the smell test for the week. Jeff Herman coming up in a minute real quickly. We've got a nap. You can get it if you've got. an iPhone in the app store. If you've got an Android, you can get it in the Google store. We've got social media on it. Easy way for the show to be listened to. If you don't like

listening to the show on the platform, you're listening to it on now. Try it out. If you have any problems with it, let me know at Kevin Sheen, D.C. Maryland tomorrow is 3-2-1. Maryland basketball tomorrow against Illinois in the first big 10 game of the season. The Terps are 9 and no it's their best start since the 98-99 season, which was the Steve Francis season, which ended, by the way, in the Sweet 16 against St. John's, and Ron Artest, who played for St. John's on that particular night. Jeff Irman joins us. Jeff covers Maryland sports for inside Maryland sports, and you can follow Jeff, and I urge you to follow Jeff if you're a TIRP fan on Twitter at Jeff underscore Erman, E-R-M-A-N. You remember that game, don't you?

That was so disappointing. Yeah, you can't bring that game up. People get very upset when you bring that game up. That was, I'd say that and that other UCLA game a few years earlier, or was a few years earlier or later. Now, the UCLA game that they got blown out in in the second round was the next year. That's right. So those two, I think, are the two big tournament,

the really ones that people get salty about you. That was a surprise to me. That felt like that was a break of a year. And I think Gary has said before that, you know, even while the other team won the national championship, he felt like that still might be his best team, even though it didn't end obviously well. You know, he hates that loss. They could not make a shot in the first half of that game.

They got down by a bunch. They came back late, had a chance against St. John's. Maryland was the two-seed. They were the favored team in that particular game. You know, it's funny, and I'm getting sidetracked here from the main part of the conversation, which is this year's team. But yesterday on the podcast, Tommy was asking me about why people have been frustrated with Turgeon. And I said, well, you know, there are a lot of reasons.

But primarily because, you know, he's in his ninth year and Marilyn's been to one sweet 16. That's it. You know, and they beat Hawaii to get to it. And I told them, and you know this, Gary was criticized heavily before he got to that final four in 2001 and won it in 2002. so many of us. Now, I loved Gary, and I thought he could coach. But you know the fan base was so frustrated. They were frustrated for a different reason, and that is that he kept getting to the Sweet 16 and losing in games in which we thought they should win. The St. John's game being one of them, the Yukon game with Joe Smith, you know, was a game that I think a lot of us thought that that was a final four type team. But he was criticized walking off the floor in a loss at home against Florida State in 2000.

2001 before they turned around and made a run to the final four. Yeah, he got killed for that. It really did feel, I mean, it really did feel in those times like he was never going to get past the Tweet 16, which, you know, like he said, can compare to now. That pretty much explains it. Surgeon has been a solid job. There's no question. He hasn't been a failure, but he hasn't gotten past the one to tweet 16, Hawaii,

and South Dakota State, I think it was. He's got a win over Valparaiso, you know. So he hasn't beat him a major conference team in the tournament. yet, you know, with Gary, I think the other thing is he didn't inherit a program that was in the shape. You know, he inherited something in much worse shape than Turgeon also. No doubt. But, you know, times change, expectations change. Gary raised those expectations.

And now this is Turgeon's chance this year, obviously, to kind of break through and get people off his back about that. Yeah. The, you know, part of the conversation yesterday was, you know, I don't know how it came about. Tommy, I think, maybe asked me, well, what should the expectations be? And I've always sort of been steadfast on what I think Maryland basketball is. And I think it's a top 10 to 12 program should be consistently. It's definitely a top 10-ish kind of job if it were available, top 10, top 15. But I basically described it this way.

Every five years, Maryland should be in the tournament four of those five years. They should be in two sweet 16s minimum. and once every five years, they should have a legitimate chance to make a final four run and win a national title. Like, certainly a final four run. To me, that's reasonable. That's not over the top. That's not over-inflating what the potential is, you know, and being delusional about it. What do you think?

I agree with you. That's what it should be. To me, the conversation has always been kind of a dichotomy between what it has been historically and what it should be, you know, because even under Gary, there weren't that many, you know, there were the two final fours back to back. Otherwise, it's not like there were a bunch of final fours or elite eight, even as good of a job he did. Can't go back for the lefty because the tournament was a whole different animal back.

Right. Maryland should be clearly the job, you know, that you're mentioning with the recruiting base, with the facilities. I mean, it's easily a top end, the top 50 team jobs. The thing is it never actually has consistently been that thing. So it's hard to say that turgeon necessarily. should be doing these things even Gary hadn't done me before. But at very least, it should be what Gary had it as, or close to what Gary had anyways.

It should be a big surprise when you don't go to the tournament. You should rarely be getting bounced, and you should be competing for, you know, conference titles, especially now that you're not in the ACC, Gary didn't win a lot of conference titles, but he was competing against a vastly more difficult field than you are now in the Big Ten, even though the Big Ten is a monster this year. So, you know, it's kind of a difference between what it should be and what it is, but clearly you would, you know, now in his ninth year, you would like to see a breakthrough, you'd like to see a regular season championship, a tournament championship,

some sort of new accomplishment on a higher level. Yeah, I mean, I think my description is sort of matches up with what Gary did, you know, going to two sweet 16s out of every. I think he probably went to more on average than two out of every five. But, you know, you're in the tournament four out of five years. What was Gary's stretch? 11 years straight in the tournament here? Yeah.

11 years. Yeah, 11 years in a row in the tournament with ultimately seven sweet 16s. Is that right? Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. So, you know, that would reflect, you know, closer to one out of, you know, every two years. But, you know, to me, 40% of the time, 50% of the time, you know, being in the sweet 16 with 20% of the time. One out of every five years, you should be able to recruit a squad and coach up a squad that's legitimately final four caliber.

You know, and that's not Kentucky, that's not Kansas, that's not Carolina, it's not Duke, it's not the blue bloods of the sport, but it should be in that next category down. You know, I think it should be anyway. And maybe that's where we're approaching here, you know. He's had some tournament teams, they had the one Sweet 16 team. You know, they were really close to a Sweet 16 last year, and it would have been incredible had they gotten to Capital One arena, had they beaten LSU, because that would have, I think, really been. a moment for him, even if they had lost to Michigan State in the Sweet 16, and it was not a good

matchup, but imagine had they played an elite eight game against Duke. All right, before we get to this team, real quickly on the ACC Big Ten Challenge, I had Gary Williams on the radio show yesterday. I'm just sick of this. Like, I, when it came out last spring or whenever it came out, the ACC Big Ten matchups, I don't want to play Notre Dame in this game. And by the way, Jeff, I think it's bad business for the leagues and for the league, for the Big Ten and for Maryland to play Notre Dame in this game.

Maryland should be playing a traditional ACC rival in this game every year. What do you think? I agree. I mean, Notre Dame is really not a very sexy matchup, especially for a team as good as this one. Everybody was kind of hoping, I think, for Duke, obviously, which, you know, Don Marcus wrote a good story about that in the Baltimore Sun the other day. it's pretty clear that Coach Kay isn't going to let them play Maryland any time, at least while he's there. That's the one of all the fans are craving.

This would have been the perfect year, you know, given how good Maryland is. But, yeah, I mean, and then you add in the fact that if we're being on its certain non-conference schedule is a little more solid this year than it was last year, but it still lacks those headliners that also have Notre Dame. It's not, does not add a lot of appeal, it doesn't get the fans inspired up. But on the flip side, from what I've seen, the fans are. seem to be finally getting back on board on the bandwagon a little more than they have been, you know, early in the past few seasons. I didn't think the crowd was great the other night.

I was there. I mean, the students showed up, which was great. It was certainly not your typical big game feel, you know, and I think that's what was missing. You know, if Kay's not going to play them, you know, they played Carolina a couple years ago. That game should have been returned, you know, back to College Park this year. If Merrill was going to play a home game, it should have been against North Carolina this year. Yeah, Carolina or Virginia.

They played Virginia twice. Twice. So I can see why that wasn't it. But somebody in that top tier could have made more sense. And the Notre Dame would also give a little better feel of what they actually are right now. Because, you know, they've played a few likely tournament teams, but we still don't know what they are against the legit top 20 or top 10 teams. All right. So let's get to that.

What do you think they are? How good are they? I mean, they look really good, Kevin. It's hard to knock much about them so far with that same cabinet. be odd that they haven't played any sort of powerhouse. This is obviously a brand new version of Turgeon we're seeing this year with how they're getting out and running. The question early on is that just something he's going to do against the cupcakes and then

revert to his old ways. And who knows as the season goes on, maybe he revert's a little bit to a little more deliberate taste. But I think it's here to stay. I think he sees that this team was made to run. He's got more depth than he's ever had. He talks about it constantly how much he likes the depth and how he doesn't have to play guys if they're not playing well.

You know, a friend who watched them practice, you know, before the season described it to me as Noah's Arc. They've got two of everything, which is pretty true. Yeah. You know, other than, you know, established centers they don't have. They have some freshman depth there, but, you know, they're longer than they've been. They're athletic. They're deeper. Anthony Cowan's playing like an All-American so far.

So if they can keep this level of play up, which is a big if, clearly they're, you know, potential Final 14. Yeah. It's amazing. Like they have a senior point guard who can do it all and takes every big shot. They've got the defensive stopper and the competitor and the jack of all trades and Morsell. They've got, you know, the big who can block shots, rebound, and can actually post you a little bit, but can actually stretch you a little bit. They've got the wing and Wiggins who looks like a pro and is getting better.

And they got the old guy who, by the way, had a dunk the other night that I didn't even think he was capable of, on that breakaway. And he can, you know, he's so versatile. And then they've got a bench that's loaded. I had Walt on the show earlier this morning. And I asked him, I said, give me of the young guys you like the most. Because I mentioned yesterday,

I think the Mitchell twins are really talented. I had no idea what they were. I saw him in high school a few years ago when they were really young. I think, first of all, they're huge. And they're going to, you know, get physically. bigger and stronger, but they've got good hands, they've got good feet, they're aggressive, they're confident. I mean, those two, you know, they could be really good next year and beyond. Yeah, and they're high- IQ guys. You know, that was the biggest thing people talked about with them.

And Mackay was the Under Armour Association Player of the Year nationally, excuse me, defensive player of the year nationally, so they can play defense too. They're still a little foul prone and the conditioning still isn't great, but, you know, to get, double-headed monster of those two. And you'll probably keep them for three or four years because they're not above-the-rim NBA kind of guys either. So, McKell has surprised me a little bit. Mackay was ranked, you know, somewhere in that top 50 range, and Mikkel is about 100

spots lower, but you really haven't been able to tell that much of a difference between them so far. And then you look at Dante Scott. I mean, he's a man already as a freshman. He's a guy you'll have in the program also for three or four years who's going to become I'm a real player too. And then Hymard even looks better than expecting. You know, six-six.

His jumper's not really falling, but he can really handle and pass at his size. So now that the only other question is whether the footer comes in around Christmas time, Joel Merrill is ready to play. That would be the icing on the cake. I haven't even thought about him. We're talking to Jeff Herman. Tomorrow they get, they have a stretch here that's very interesting because Gary said something today that

yesterday that rings really true. You really don't know until you go on the road and play somebody good. And they're going to play somebody pretty good on Tuesday night up in State College. Penn State is underrated and Maryland has struggled up there. And then they got, you know, I guess the finals break and then they get Seton Hall on the road as well. Starting with Illinois, though, tomorrow in their first Big Ten game, that was the game that frustrated me, Jeff, last year more than any other.

I hated that that game was at Madison Square Garden, that they moved to home game there, and they lost that game. And it probably heard them, maybe, you know, potentially even a seed line. I don't know. But Illinois can run. They can score. They lost to Miami the other night. Chris Likes went off, the kid from Gonzaga. You think this is a challenge or not tomorrow? I think it is a challenge. Illinois is best rebounding team, at least according to rebounding margin in the country, they're plus 17 a game, which is a huge number. They've got a 7-foot, 290-pound freshman who's tearing it up so far, top five in the conference in scoring, number one in rebounding.

So that's going to be an interesting challenge for Maryland because they've been a good rebounding team, but they're not what they were with Bruno Fernando. Obviously, six, as we know, is not the same kind of post-presence. He's more of a guy who likes the face-up. So you're going to be forced to play more of the big lineups as opposed to the small lineups that Tersen's been using lately. May the Mitchell twins more. Maybe Ricky Lindo gets back in the mix a little bit. So, you know, they should win. I'm sure they'll be favored by, you know, maybe eight or nine points.

But Illinois presents a pretty interesting challenge for them. You worried about Penn State Tuesday night like I am? It should be, yeah. I mean, they've given Maryland tough games, if not beating them lately. They're pretty good this year. I can't remember what they were in Ken Palm. I looked at a yesterday top 30 or 40-ish. You know, the guard play there. Maryland has a huge division. advantage in guard play, but it's kind of the same thing. They've got two forwards or forward in the center.

Lamar Stevens is one of the top five players in the conference to the left of the NBA last year. And then Mike Watkins Center is really good, too. And they've played Maryland tough lately. That's why the Big Ten this year is really, to me, by far, the best it's been since Maryland joined. You know, those teams aren't even the ones we're talking about. You know, they're not Michigan or Michigan State or Ohio State, but they're still really good teams. Yeah, I think it's, I think,

you're right. I think the Big Ten is very, very good. And there were some losses early. You know, Purdue is excellent. And they had a couple of losses that could have been wins. They lost to Texas on their home court. They lost to Marquette, actually. And then they lost to somebody else before they crushed UBA. I'm forgetting who it was. But yeah, Ohio State is the real deal. I was telling Tommy yesterday, you know, we know the ACC better than we know the Big Ten. We know the coach. in the ACC still, especially at the top. And nobody, I can't remember somebody going to Chapel Hill with a Roy Williams coach team in holding Carolina to 49 points.

Now, that was their worst, Roy's worst home loss since moving to UNC, which was 16 years ago, which is crazy to me. And maybe their biggest margin at home ever. I mean, clearly Carolina is not as good as they're supposed to be not as good as they usually are. But to beat them by that much, Ohio State looks good. Chris Holman is a stud. He's getting top 50 recruits there now.

So, you know, just that wave of new hires a couple years ago with him and Archie Miller and Brad Underwood really upgraded the coaching in the conference. And, you know, Fred Hoyberg, obviously now they're rebuilding, but he's an upgrade. So the coaching level in the Big Ten has improved dramatically the past year. You know, Ohio State, I think, is scary because the first result earlier, this year when they played Villanova and they completely annihilated them. That was a head turner and Villanova's not what they've been, but still what they did to Carolina was scary.

All right. Bottom line, it's only December 6th. We've got months before we get to March, but what should be the minimum this year to keep the fan base at bay? Yeah, it's so hard. People always ask this and it's so hard because the tournament is such a weird thing, you know. just a fluky deal. Give me a seed and then how far they should advance?

I mean, clearly you've got to be a top two seed, right? If you're anything less than the top two at this point when you've got a real chance to maybe be number one in the poll for the first time ever in a few weeks if you keep winning, anything less than the top two seed, I think the disappointment. You've got to get, you know, I would say elite eight. You've got to break through to the elite eight, I guess it's kind of a sliding scale, I would say. Like if you win the conference regular season, then maybe people are a little more likely to have

a tweet 16 or if you stumble at the end toward the end of the conference season you finish third or something then you probably need to do better than the tournament to make people happy but bottom line is you have to win something you haven't before whether that's regular season title tournament title or an elite you have to have some sort of accomplishment that you haven't had so far so you know the expectations I think are rightfully high yeah I'm sort of with you on that one last thing and I was just looking at their

schedule I didn't realize this until I just saw it Last year they had like a 12 or 13 day break before they lost to Seton Hall at home, and I hated that they had that long of a break. They've got nine days this year between Penn State and Seton Hall, and then another 10 days before they play Bryant at the end of December, and then they go right into the conference schedule. What the hell am I going to write about? Well, I mean, why the scheduling with that?

I understand finals break, and every team takes, you know, nine, ten days, for finals. I think they took 12 or 13 last year. But you got a nine-day break and then a 10-day break. You're playing, you're essentially playing three games in 20, in 19 days. That's it. Yeah, you don't want to lose your momentum. That's what you're worried about. Yeah, I understand. They do usually have these breaks, but maybe that gives the big fella a little bit of extra time to get ready, come back in the new year. Jeff, thanks. As always, really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, Kevin. Always like catching up with Jeff. And follow him on Twitter at Jeff underscore Irman. He writes for Inside Maryland Sports. Tomorrow is not going to be easy, Aaron. Got to get that win, though. You've got to pile up wins at home in the Big Ten this year. They've got a brutal schedule in the Big Ten.

They play Ohio State twice. They play Indiana twice. Indiana's undefeated. They play Michigan State twice. They only get Michigan once this year, but they've got to win their home games. And a team like Illinois, they will be, I think, maybe a double-digit favorite potentially tomorrow over Illinois. You've got to take care of business at home in the Big Ten, especially with what's coming up

on the road. I mean, all of this 9-0 ranked third in the country, you lose tomorrow at Illinois, and then you're going to Penn State Tuesday night. It really ends up being a pin to the balloon, you know, here in December. It's early. You know, it's not going to end their season if they lose, but they should beat Illinois tomorrow. All right, let's bring in Tim Murray, our good friend, who co-hosts the show The Daily

line, which Aaron produces. That's his other job, his more significant job than this one. But Tim's a good friend. We love doing this every once in a while. And tomorrow's championship Saturday, which we will get to in a moment. Did you have Chicago last night? You know, I did. Finally, we got one. Finally. It has been a tough year, Kevin. We are, I don't know about you. You've been at this a little bit longer than me. But this has been this has been a year where you have to really buckle down and trust the process because our sniffing outlines has not gone our way more often than not, especially lately.

We had a good start early in college, I know that. We had a great start overall. I mean, I was 26 above 500. 26 games above 500. I am now for the year one game below 500. That's how bad the last five, six weeks were. Actually, last week wasn't terrible. And I have a feeling that it's going to turn. And I have, I just finished up my smell test before we got you on the phone. I have a feeling it's going to turn. It usually does. And maybe, you know, we're in for a nice couple of weeks of betting. But I don't love the board tomorrow. And the games that fit, you know, sort of the criteria. I gave out Georgia and I gave out Miami of Ohio tomorrow.

You know, I'd lean Hawaii and Wisconsin a little bit, but what do you like about the board before we get to the games? I think it's kind of chalky. I know I've heard a lot of people, maybe they're scared away by the number, but I talked about it yesterday on the show. I laid 28 with Clemson. I just think like they're on a war pass, but maybe the first half is more of a of the play, Kevin. But since that close call to North Carolina, that's all people can talk about is the close call with North Carolina. That happened on September 28th.

Since then, Clemson has beaten everybody by 31 or more points. Trevor Lawrence is playing like he did last year. The defense has been unbelievable. And look, I'm thrilled for Virginia. I know you and I have Virginia friends. what they did last weekend. I heard Stanford speak talk about it on the pod earlier this week. I agreed.

I thought that game was spectacular. And Bryce Perkins is really good. But you can't be a one-man band and beat Clemson. I'm sorry. He accounted for all but 17 yards of total office. He had a hand in all but 17 of their yards last week. So I think Clemson, everything Davos saying about, you know, woe is us and everyone.

doesn't want us part of it. It's getting a little tired. That's being said, I think that that's been really hammered home, and I think Clemson just goes out and just demolishes Virginia. How are they scoring? How is Virginia scoring tomorrow? I don't know. So I laid 28 with Clemson. I know it's a big number, but I got it at 28. I felt like, all right. Wait a minute. When did you, you played it earlier, early in the week of 28? Because I see 28 and a half on all of my sites right now. Yeah, I played it a little earlier on the way. I mean, you could buy the hook down.

You know, a little extra juice there. But, yeah, I played it at 28. So, yeah, that's the one. And then, you know, tonight, Kevin, I'm curious to get yourself. I love Utah. I've locked Utah a lot. I know you have, too.

They're really good. They're playing really well right now. But is anybody giving Oregon a shot? It seems crazy to just assume that Utah is going to be. Oregon comfortably. I think people are giving Oregon a shot. I do. And you know, yeah, I do.

I mean, first of all, you know, the win last week over Oregon State was actually an impressive win. If you've been paying attention to Oregon State, that was one of the most improved teams in the country this year. And Oregon, you know, beat him 24 to 10. And I heard people saying, well, you know, they had lost the previous week to Arizona State and they only beat Oregon State 24 to 10. Well, it actually, you know, it was a 17-10 game in the fourth quarter in Oregon State had the ball, I think. Oregon State's actually played pretty well.

Plus, that Civil War thing is a massive rivalry game. I give Oregon a chance. I just think Utah's really good. And I am hoping that Utah wins this game and wins it easily and looks really impressive of doing it because I'm fearful that Baylor in Oklahoma, Baylor in particular, inching up in the recent rankings, that if Oklahoma really throttles Baylor in the Big 12th title game, that they're going to jump Utah. And I don't think they deserve to. I've said this on the show a bunch. And for Aaron, this is going to be just a rinse and repeat from me. But I would prefer to see Utah in as the number 14 if Georgia loses. Yeah.

I think Utah is better, but I think the way that the committee has set up the rankings, and I know other people disagree. And some people, Kevin, think that the committee has stood by Utah, and they've ranked them higher every week, and they're saying that we think Utah is better. And I hope that's true. But Baylor has moved up seven ranks, seven in the last two weeks. That's ridiculous. You know, you could say they were underrated at 14, but then they beat Texas and jumped five spots to nine.

That made no sense to me whatsoever, and I felt like they were cooking the books a little bit for Oklahoma, because if Oklahoma wins on Saturday, they would have two top 10 wins because Baylor probably is not dropping out of the top 10. And you saw it, how did Oklahoma State magically stay in the top 25? there they were. That's another top 25 win. And then Utah, when you put their full body of work, would have one top 25 win. And their losses are comparable. You know, Oklahoma lost Kansas State and Utah lost to USC on a Friday night with a third-string quarterback.

And back Moss, I get it was hurt. But I just have this feel that Oklahoma is going to get in. And real quickly on that game, you know, Matt Rule is one of my favorite coaches. I love Matt Rule. I think he's tremendous. But on that turf at Jerry's World, C.D. Lamb didn't play against O'C. Baylor. I think Oklahoma has the capabilities of blowing the doors off of Baylor.

And maybe I'm wrong. I laid it with Baylor, you know, earlier, or excuse me, I laid it with Oklahoma early this week. So I'm leaning that way. I don't feel great about it. Kind of to your point, I don't love the board this weekend, but I just feel like on that type of turf at Jerry's World, big stage. I feel like Oklahoma, if they just play a clean game, I think you were talking about Jalen Hurts and how nonchalant he is. If they play a clean game, I don't know how Baylor can stand toe to toe with him. You agree with me on Hertz, don't you? Like, I want to believe that he could

be a really good NFL quarterback, and there's a lot to him that I really like, and I thought the Baylor comeback was 90% because of him and what he did in that game. It was one of the better games of the year, and the comeback was. phenomenal. But man, does he put the ball on the ground or make some throws that just makes you, it would make me scream if I were an Oklahoma fan? Because they're just, they're terrible plays and they're unnecessary. Like, you don't have to make a great play to pick him off. You don't need to make a great play to force a fumble on him. He does it himself too often. Yeah, it's got to be just so infuriating if you're a, if you're an Oklahoma fan. But Kevin,

Think about Galen Hertz's career. This is a guy that has started a national championship, an FCC championship. Now he'll start a Big 12 championship. And last year, you know, we can say all we want about the turnover. They needed him. They need. He won the game last year in the FCC championship game. You know, Charlie Brewer didn't win Baylor a Big 12 championship last year.

Jalen Hurts came in cold and beat a. stout defense in Georgia last year. So he's got some big game Cajone, and I think when you're looking at that, you know, that certainly is another advantage for Oklahoma on that day. The one thing about Baylor, and if you were listening to Stanford Steve when he was on a couple days ago, I said this to him, is that Baylor obviously had all of those results during the course of the year where you knew they were a lucky team and they were living right. You know, they shouldn't have beaten TCU. They barely beat West Virginia.

You know, Texas Tech, I'm trying to think of the other ones. Iowa State, whatever it was. But they have played, going back to that first half of the Oklahoma game, they've played their best football the last three weeks. Yeah, they've played well against Texas. And, I mean, they destroyed Kansas. Destroyed Kansas. Now, Kansas, it was a turnover fest for them.

But they played well, and, you know, they're the ones that want to make up for that loss. I'm leery of laying nine in that game. I'm going to stay away from that one because Oklahoma, you can move the football against Oklahoma. Like early in the year, remember, we thought, oh, they're different defensively. They're different. They're not that much different defensively. You know, I mean, you can move the football. Baylor moved it up and down the field against him.

TCU moved the ball up and down the field against Oklahoma a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, and I think a little bit, Kevin. I think last weekend was a bit fraudulent. uh, they, they were, Oklahoma was good defensively against Oklahoma State. Oklahoma State had their backup quarterback in there. So, uh, you know, take that with a grain of salt. If Oklahoma State is their starting quarterback, I think it's a different game on that spot. You know, Alex Grinch, he's been applauded by a lot of people. Uh, he was the big hire this offseason, uh, for, for Oklahoma to take over that defense, but I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, this defense can,

they can move the ball, but, you know, I, I just, it's, Something about it, and, you know, the same goes for that Wisconsin-O-Hawyer-State game. I also think, I feel like I'm just repeating what Stanford Steve said, but I agree that when you play these indoor games, Kevin, God, the athletes really shine. You're talking about CD-LAM, Jalen Hurts. I mean, the superior athletes on these, you know, perfect condition type of games, it really helps out the more talented teams. You don't think, though, that Baylor would jump Utah, do you?

if they beat Oklahoma? No. No. No. No. No. I don't either. But I just think Utah, the eye test, I think they're better than Oklahoma. I agree. I don't think they're better than, actually, in many ways, I think they might be better than Georgia, too. I think Georgia's really limited offensively. Yeah. What do you think about that game, Kevin? Because, you know, I think there's a little bit of overreaction to this George Pickens' suspension.

Everyone's freaking out about it. I've talked about it. He's the freshman who got in the fight against Georgia Tech. He's going to miss the first half. Lawrence Cager is out. We don't know how healthy Dandre Swift is. But, man, I feel like seven points is a lot, but I don't know. This L.S team is a monster.

I don't know if we've seen in the SEC before. God, they are so good offensively. They're not great defensively, though. They really aren't great defensively, LSU. And I, the public's on LSU, I took Georgia. I mean, I think, you know, in Georgia, they've been in this spot. I'm going to take the point, too. Yeah, they've been in this spot.

And, you know, they got it done against Auburn a couple of years ago. They should have gotten it done against Auburn, if not for Hertz. Against Alabama, excuse me, if not for Hertz. But I sort of like Georgia. I love LSU as a team. And I think probably we will see LSU, Ohio State. But, you know, you get into these situations. It's funny because remember the Georgia, Oklahoma playoff game,

from a couple of years ago. And it was after Georgia looked like the right side against Auburn in the SEC title game, which was a rematch from the regular season game, which wasn't, you know, it was like a month earlier when Auburn was the right side and they crushed Georgia. And then Georgia was favored against Auburn in the SEC title game. We were all on Georgia. And then Georgia was, I think they were either favored or maybe a super short dog against Oklahoma. And it just said to me that Georgia was going to shut Oklahoma down and win the game.

Well, they did win the game, but they did. He didn't shut Oklahoma down. You know, that was like, what was that, 54 to 48 overtime or something like that? Overtime, yeah. But I don't know, Georgia defensively is, you know, LSU hasn't been stopped by anybody. The best defensive teams they played this year were Auburn, and they played Florida, who was without their two best defensive players in that game. And Florida was really, other than Alabama, Florida's the team that had the best.

shot to beat them. That game was 28-28 early in the fourth quarter. Florida's playing without their two best defensive players, and LSU ended up scoring twice and winning the game by 14. I would have loved to have seen that game with Florida being fully healthy. I agree. I had LSU in that game because they were laying, what, like 13 or something like that? I think I bought Florida to 14 and played 14, you know, played a plus 14. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I mean, Kirby's smart. I'm not a big Kirby smart in-game type of guy because, I mean, let's just look,

the proof is in the pudding when you look at that's fake punt last year. But that being said, they did have the right game plan to slow Alabama down enough. Were they a double-digit dog last year against Alabama? Yeah, I think so. And I think this is just another. No, I don't think it was. actually, I don't think it was double digits. Was it?

The Georgia Alabama game, it might have been like eight, something like that. I forget, actually. They were a dog, and they were, let's just say comparable dog. You know, Georgia was a team that I was super high on, and Aaron can attest to this. They were my preseason team. I thought they'd win the whole thing. And then, you know, Jake Frost, something's up with Jake Prong. It doesn't look 100% there.

But, yeah, I think this is a, I would. want to play Georgia. This might be just a stayaway, sit and enjoy type of the game. But if I had, to me, it's Georgia or pass, just because I do think they have the defensive horses to slow this LSU team down enough. They were an 11-point dog in that game. Wow. An 11-point dog, and they lost 35 to 28. So real quickly, before we move on something else. So, Georgia wins they're in. Ohio State and LSU can both lose and they're in. Clemson has to win and they're going to. You don't think Clemson it loses and gets in, right?

I mean, I don't think that happens. Yeah, so let's just assume Ohio State LSU and Clemson are good because Clemson's not going to lose to Virginia. And Ohio State and LSU could both lose and still be in. So we both agree that if Georgia were to beat LSU, they would be the fourth team. If they don't win and Utah loses, to Oregon tonight. And Baylor beats Oklahoma. Is it Baylor? I think it will be Baylor. I think they've moved them up enough, and they've kind of set the

precedent. Who can you put in over Baylor? I feel like by process of elimination, you have to put them in. Do you put in a two-lost Georgia over Baylor? You can argue that Georgia is better, but The committee has said conference titles are tiebreakers, and when you've got a Baylor team that they conference champ with only one loss, they just avenge their only loss, which was a catastrophic loss. They let a 25-point lead. You can point to the non-conference being garbage against what Stephen F. Austin and Rice and UT San Antonio. But I think at the end of the day, the committee almost has to get, if that scenario unfolds, almost has to put in a one-month conference champion. You can't put in a two-lost non-conference champion over a one-loss conference champion. Because, man, I just don't think they would be ready to deal with that backlash.

It would be bad. Yeah, if Wisconsin beat Ohio State and Baylor beat Oklahoma and Georgia lost and Utah lost, I think, Wisconsin would actually jump Baylor because their championship game would be more impressive than Baylars, even though Wisconsin would have two losses. You can't lose to Illinois, man. You can't lose to Illinois. Yeah. That loss is such a, to me, I don't know what they're doing at number eight, you know,

but you just can't lose Illinois. I'm sorry. I know they're a bowl-eligible team, and, you know, the committee can spin that, and that's fine. But you can't lose it. You can't have two losses. and I know that win would be far superior to anything Baylor has, but my hunch would be, and people would not like it, would be Ohio State would stay in if they lost to Wisconsin,

and Baylor would still get in. Ohio State's going to be in win or lose. So is LSU on Saturday. I mean, those are locks. Both their resumes are as good as we've ever seen. Have we had three undefeateds in the playoff? Last year. Last year was?

Last year we had three undefeated, and prior to that we had three total unbeaten and four years. So we're on path as six unbeatens in two years, and we had three and four years prior to that. All right. So you are, it sounds to me like, did you play Oregon tonight or not? I bought the hook. I'm playing Oregon plus seven. All right, and then you like Oklahoma Lane the nine, and you do like Georgia plus the seven, and you like Clemson minus the 28.

If you're looking at 28 and a half, Timmy's telling you to buy the hook and play it at minus 20. I would say look for a half too for Clemson. I think they come out and just blow the doors off right away. So I don't know what that first half line will be. Probably what? Yeah, it's going to be at least 14. Yeah, so it's going to be at least 14.

Anything on Sunday you like? The Rams. Yeah, I leaned Rams. That line makes no sense. I'm kind of looking at the bills, bills plus five and a half at home. And then, am I crazy? I like New England plus the three at home or minus the three at home against Kansas City.

I liked, I leaned Rams. I sort of thought about Buffalo, but passed on it. I think the Redskins are the biggest anti-public side of the weekend, actually. gave them out. And I like the Jets. You know, they got smoked last week, and the dolphins beat the Eagles, and the Jets are laying five and a half. I think they're going to smoke Miami.

Oh, yeah. I love, I'm looking at that now. Yep, definitely like the Jets. New England, look, you watch, we all watch New England. That offense has got massive issues right now. They, Kansas City is the clear square dog. Everyone's going to be grabbing Kansas City. I got plus points going against an in-epard.

offense in New England. So I'm going to lay New England, lay the three with New England on Sunday. I don't know how they beat them, but I'll trust in Belichick here in this spot. You know, sometimes you feel dumb making bets. If I lose with Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, who have been just ridiculously profitable over their tenure, so be it. But I'm getting New England on sale, and I think everybody's going to be on Kansas City because they don't think New England can score with the truth.

Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of dopes that think Kansas that are off New England, you know, typically at the wrong time. I think that New England's a publicly bet team too. I bet you more likely than not, the action will be sort of split. But I like your thinking there. And I might actually, I might take a little bit of a taste on the Patriots as well when we get to that, when we get to game time. The last I heard earlier this week, and we still have the tourists to come to town, but earlier this week I think the Westgate had three-to-one ticket count on Kansas City in that spot.

Yeah, that's the information that I got this morning actually when it was on radio. Because there were a couple of games that I, like I leaned hard on the Rams, and there was one other one on Sunday that I learned. That line. That's the stinkiest line of the weekend. Yeah. Why are the Rams pick them against Seattle? Everybody's going to be on set.

And that line has come down, Kevin. The line opened at three, and it's come down to a tick. Yeah. And everybody's on Seattle. That line makes no sense. All right.

What else? What else you got from me? Do you think the Redskins are going to, do you think they've got any shot to beat the Packers? No. Did you think they had any shot to beat the Panthers last week? No, I didn't. I didn't. Yeah, they'll be hope, right? This was a hopeful, wishful thinking, and your buddy's going to be back as the head coach next year.

Yeah, that'd be great. How about the Cowboys last night? That was beautiful. They stink. It's really, they're so, it's got it. First of all, what you saw at the end of that game in particular is you saw a team that looked like they felt like their season was over. And it's not. That's the irony of it. I mean, they still have a half game lead in the division. And the other team that's close to them is imploding as well. But man, they look horrible. They really do look bad. And look, the last, really the last two games, they haven't been close against Buffalo or Chicago. It's funny how Jerry got all up.

set after they lost by four in Foxborough to Bill Belichick in a terrible weather game, and he's acting like they should have won the game. And they actually could have won that game. They were in that game, but they get blown out by Buffalo and by Chicago. Pretty hysterical. And Urban Meyer might be the next head coach of the Cowboys. Yeah, and that did. Matt with Urban Meyer. Oh, God. Is that true? Yes. When did that happen? James later reported it last night. Oh, I missed that. Urban Meyer and Stephen Jones is going to meet with Urban Meyer.

Lincoln Riley is still high on their list. And Clemson offensive coordinator, Tony Elliott, is a under-the-radar candidate to keep an eye on. This is why the Redskins have to move quickly here in the next week. And I think, and I mentioned it earlier in the show, I think something could happen. There could be some news next week, maybe. They got to clear the decks here so that they can be in the race and be ready. to go after a head coach here. This is why Carolina cut Ron Rivera loose

this early. It's the move now in the NFL to cut guys a little bit earlier than they used to just to be set up so you can start having these conversations and start teeing it up for the day the season ends to hire your new group. You don't want to start on that day. You should be starting right now. We'll see. Thanks for doing this. Have a good weekend. Good luck. We both need it.

need it. Exactly. All right, thanks, Tim. Time to settle the score is score and more. All right, let's finish up the show with a Redskins score and more. I got the Packers 27 to 17. I've got the Redskins and the smell test, as you know, plus the 13. I just think that they're going to be competitive in this game. I don't think, you know, you're ever going to have a sense that they, you know, are going to win the game. You know, it's going to be, they're going to run the football a little bit. They're going to move the football a little bit, hopefully get into a fast-moving game. I don't think it's a 27-3 to 3 that they get too late touchdowns in, you know, like the jet game, 34 to 3 got too late touchdowns. I think it's something like, you know, they're within a

score most of the way, and Green Bay ends up winning by 10. I don't know if that's a good thing with respect to everybody coming back next year or Callahan being a more significant, you know, candidate to return. 2717. That's what I got. Do you have a hunch on this one? Are you with me on the Redskins plus the 13 or not? The only reason that I like the 30 is that I do think, I think there's something wrong with the Packers offense. I don't know exactly

what it is. Might be something wrong with their defense. I think their defense is going to be, at least in this game, is going to be fine. So if you tell me that this is a 2717 game, I can buy it. but I can't play it, that's for sure. Yeah. One last thing before we run. Wanted to get to this Nats story. First of all, they re-signed Howie Kendrick, which is great news.

I think that was expected. That's been reported. Actually, I don't know if that was expected. A lot of people thought he would jump back to the ALS, some AIL team would pay him a multi-year deal to play designated hitter and really step up. So this actually came as a little bit of a surprise to me, but a very pleasant one. Yeah. Bob Nightingale was on the radio show with that.

me the other day and he guessed that Kendrick would resign and come back. So I guess I was just going with that. But if you, if anybody's missed it out there, Mark Lerner was a guest on NBC Sports Washington and he was interviewed by Donald Dell of all people. Is Donald Dell doing work for NBC Sports Washington? I didn't know that he was. But anyway, Donald Dell conducted the interview. And Mark Lerner, who is the team's principal, you know, managing owner, the son of Ted Lerner, said the following, quote, we really can only afford to have one of those two guys referring to Steven Strasbourg and Anthony Rendon. They're huge numbers. We already have a large payroll to begin with. It's not up to us.

We can give them a great offer, which we've done to both of these players. They're great people. We'd be delighted if they stay, but it's not up to us. It's up to them. That's why they call it free agency, closed quote. Sort of the same tact that they took with Harper a year ago. Remember, the big difference with Harper is you had Soto and Robles. You know? Right. With Rendon, you don't have an obvious answer unless you're going to go out and get Josh Donaldson. And, you know, I would argue that you don't really have an answer for Steven Strasbourg either. He's been the biggest and best clutch performer as a pitcher for this team over their last couple of post seasons. I don't know if this is leverage. I do know this. The learners are among, if not the wealthiest owners in sport.

If you didn't know that, they are the wealthiest sports owners out there. I think Forbes had this recently. I think they were number one. They may have been like in the top three worst case, but they are exceptionally wealthy even when it comes to sports team owners. They also had a World Series season, which will result in a significant revenue boost and increase, not to mention in valuation, overall valuation increase when you are a World Series champion. It is sort of up to them. You know, I think, I don't know about Rendon,

but I think if you blow away Strasbourg, he's coming back. And maybe if you blow away Rendon, he's coming back as well. They had this seventh highest payroll last year, not the highest, the seventh highest payroll. I just think it would be deflating if both of them aren't back. If both of them aren't back, I mean, if you end up with one of them back, I think the lien here is on Strasbourg. Without question.

You know, so, but I just, you know, you come off that incredible feeling that we all had at the end of October. And then we're going to get to April and opening day, and Anthony Rendon's going to be suiting up for the Rangers. I hate that. He's 29 years old. You know, he had a near MVP season. He hit 320. He had 34 home runs. He had 120-something RBIs.

You know, he was unbelievable in the post-year-old. season, memorable moments in the postseason. And I just would hate to lose Anthony Rendon, but I think they're going to. And I hate that it would be about money because I think the learners can afford it. I can't tell business people how to spend their money and they're good business people, you know, and they've spent money on players in the past. It's not like they haven't spent money on players in the past. I understand the decision on Harper to a certain degree. I don't know that I'd be as understanding on Rendon. There's a number. of things about this. A, you're right. They can afford it. And I hate the, you know, we can't afford.

No, no, no, no, no. You can say it doesn't, you know, it would make the team a little bit too cash tight. That's fine. But you can afford it. You know, it might not be a good long-term decision, but you can afford it. So to say you can't afford it is completely disingenuous, and it's what Scott Boris ranted about. But this is the second year in a row that Mark Lerner in particular has kind of negotiated through the media, negotiated publicly with free agency. That's not a good look. I really want him to, when it comes to free agent decisions, stop going to the media and talking about the great offers he's offering or the agents being too greedy or whatever they're saying because that's not a good look and that's going to cause agents to

have problems with it. Obviously, you know, Boris right now is starting a public war against the nationals now. Had a big thing this morning about how. how the can't afford it thing is nonsense. And that's just something that, again, especially off of a World Series, you don't need. And it wouldn't surprise me if this was part of the reason why Howie Kendrick got done today as opposed to maybe a little bit later. They needed that public relations win.

And that's certainly what Howie Kendrick is. Winter meetings are next week, right? Yes. So a lot of news coming on that. All right. Thanks to Tim Murray. Thanks to Jeff Irman, who joined us on the show today as well, talking Terps Hoops.

I'm excited about Maryland's opener tomorrow. I'm not going to the game tomorrow. I went Wednesday night for the Notre Dame game. There's too much great college football on for me that I'm interested in watching. Tomorrow is such a great day in college football. But I will be watching that Maryland game with all of the other sports that will be going on. And I hope the Terps get off to a 1-0 Big 10 start. That would be great.

They have a huge and very difficult game coming up next week at Penn State. Thanks to Aaron for producing us. Thanks to all of you. for tuning in back on Monday, where we will have a lot of football to discuss. Have a great weekend.