The Kevin Sheehan Show - Trent Off; Trent On

Episode Date: July 12, 2022

Kevin and Thom today on Queen Elizabeth's first-ever trip to the United States and the football game she attended. Some Giant Foods history included on the show today. Then the boys got to the Trent Williams "off the list" conversation. It includes some information that Kevin has on how the team messed it up. The boys talked about when exactly it became obvious that Dan Snyder was going to be an owner problem. They also discussed the Joe Jacoby path to the Hall of Fame.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. We are catching up on a weekend and a Monday with, I guess, lots of different news.

Lots of it related to the football team and some of the things that they were rolling out over the weekend, including this Take Command website, or I'm sorry, Command Legacy. a website, which was such a smooth rollout of a new website. We'll get to that. Tommy hasn't had a chance to weigh in on Jacoby, being a semi-finalist for the senior committee. What else? There are lots of things. I wanted to mention real quickly because I didn't do a podcast yesterday, and I am certain that you did not watch this on Sunday morning. But the Djokovic, Nick Curios, Wimbledon final, was really spectacular and exciting. I was, for the first time, in a long time.

And I felt this way last week, and I told you this last week about Curios, that he is really must watch, for a lot of different reasons, one of which is he's just an extraordinary talent. But the other is that he's nuts. Like he self-destructs on the court, he's yelling at his box constantly.

He's always in confrontation with the chair um but i have not seen the ratings yet for sunday but i have a feeling that a lot of people were tuned into that wimbledon final and it was such a high level of men's tennis in that final i really enjoyed it i hope curios in jokovic said this afterwards um that he hopes curious you know is that this is sort of a beginning of kind of a of a career that's always held promise um a new stage of his career because it would be important for men's tennis to have, you know, a figure like him. I know a lot of people don't like him, but the bottom line is I think he draws eyeballs, and the sport needs that. So I'm assuming you didn't watch it, right?

No, I did not watch it. Yeah. But it was a great, great tennis match. It really was, really enjoyed it. So there you go. That's it on that. I was just, looking for some TV ratings stuff. And it looks like for the most part, they were up, which would not surprise me. Would not surprise me at all. How are you doing? How was your weekend?

What did you do over the weekend? Well, the weekend was okay. My son moved into a new house in Baltimore. That actually, he had built. So the moving day was Saturday, so we helped them with that. We didn't help them. We just, like, watch the movers move stuff in. And then I went to a Graze game Saturday night at the Youth Academy,

where we honored the Anacosta Lodge of the Masons who are generous contributors to the D.C. Graves organization. That's pretty much my weekend after that. And I went to Shelly. went to shelley's after that. Oh, okay. That's on your way home. That's always on your way home.

Yes, it manages to be. Right. Well, good. Although, you know, I mean, every time I'm there and I'm talking to somebody, and I say, well, I got to go, and they say, where do you live? And I say, Frederick, and they're just blown away. And I have to drive, like, at Frederick at midnight or something like that, you know? So, I mean, I'm used to it by now.

Yeah. I feel the same way. I mean, that's a long haul. But, you know, it's depending on, look, it's a long haul for those of us that live in town or just barely out of town. But in other markets, that kind of commute is a nothing commute. So there. By the way, I'm looking at this real quickly. BBC's ratings of the final.

I have not seen the ESPN ratings of the final. but the BBC ratings of the Wimbledon final on Sunday were way up and had one of the largest streaming audiences of all time. But I cannot find for whatever reason the ESPN numbers. That's exciting. The BBC ratings. How exciting is that? Well, I knew you'd be excited. Isn't this tournament take place in England?

I knew you'd be excited by that. Yes, it took place in England. All the while, all the while we ran. having, you know, a prime minister situation there as well. Lots of things going on in the UK last year. Yeah, but how's the queen doing? Is the queen okay? I think the queen's okay.

Is she okay? Okay, because I'm real concerned about the royal family. Well, the Duchess of Cambridge, you know, has never looked better. She looked awesome as she presented the winning trophies for both the women's final and the men's final. I mean, Kate looked great. she's a beauty there's no doubt about it she really is you know it it's like a park at disney world the whole royal family thing it's ridiculous well i don't understand the obsession with it

the american obsession with it i i i agree i've never understood it but yeah um it's been it's been a thing for a long time now that's for sure uh it's funny because i'll tell you, the ESPN coverage, they, after the match, they take you right into these conversations between, you know, Kate and William and the son who, you know, is adorable. I don't know how old the son is. And the players. Like, they've got the camera and they got the microphones right in the middle of it. But she, you know, I don't know much, I'm not a royal follower. I'm like you. I don't really understand the fascination with it. But they seem like a lovely couple. I'll leave it at that, even though there are always stories about how poorly they seem to be doing in their marriage,

which is part of, impartial to the whole thing. Maybe the football team for a promotional campaign to start inviting the royal family to their games. Well, do you know, Tommy, do you know that Queen Elizabeth's first American sporting event, that she attended. It happened in the 1950s. Do you know what it was? No. You really don't?

No, I don't know what it was. Why would I say no if I knew what it was? It was a Maryland football game in College Park. Really? Yes. That's a strange selection. Well, in the late 1950s, Maryland was a powerhouse in college football. You know that.

They participated in, they won a national championship. And I think 1953 or 55 or something, on October 19th, 1957, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip watched Maryland upset the number 14 tar heels 217 at Bird Stadium from a specially erected box on the visitor's side of the field. The game fell during the Queen's first ever visit to the United States as a monarch, a six-day trip that began with a stop in Virginia for the 350th anniversary celebration of the founding of Jamestown. Then she attended a state dinner at the White House, visited the Washington National Cathedral, Children's Hospital, the National Gallery of Art.

And she specifically requested before she, came to the States a chance to see her first American football game. And because, obviously, it's not necessarily because Maryland was, you know, a big-time power at the time. It was because it was the closest game to her visit to D.C. Well, you know what, Lizzie, it's time to come back. Yeah. It's time to come back. We'll find the one suite that isn't leaking or doesn't have sour milk.

in it and we'll put her in that one. Yes. That's a promotional campaign right there. The royal family. There's some good video or film of her attending the game. 43,000 sellout crowd for the actual game there. 480 accredited members of the press. Wow.

That's a lot, isn't it? Yes, it is. Western Union. That is a lot. Western Union tripled its facilities in the press box. Newspaper, radio, TV, motion picture representatives from London, India, Pakistan. I like the way I said that. New Zealand and Australia were among the 480 accredited members of the press.

The Queen's Special Security Force was more than 300 strong. It included special agents from the Maryland State Police Secret Service National Detective. agency and Scotland Yard. That's a pretty cool story. After the game, her reaction was wonderful, wonderful. And Prince Phillips said, very wonderful about their experience.

And here's a copy, by the way, I'm looking at a copy of the Washington Post. Queen Seas Maryland game. Jim Tatum's Tar Heels. Oh, this is the day of the game. Queen sees Maryland game, Jim Tatum's tar heels favored before an expected 43,000. The game, by the way, was on WTOP radio. There you go. Okay. I'll tell you on this podcast,

you'll learn something about the past and that it's not always Tommy that's telling you about the past. No, no, that's the story I've never heard before. Oh, the other thing that she was fascinated in coming over to the United States for the first time was frozen chicken pot pies. And so she got one from the West Hyattsville Giant. She was fascinated, by the way, with just supermarkets in general. And I guess they were just becoming a thing in the late 50s. I don't know. You should know that.

I don't know when Giant started. You should know the whole history of supermarkets. Well, the giant was, you know, founded by like Izzy Cohen and that family, right, the Cohen's, right? And I'm going to, I'm going to say that. I don't know. You don't know? Why would I know? Well, because you've been it lived in the market for a while.

And Izzy Cohen was, you know, a big-time business person and known name in this market, I would have thought, is the... But every time I've been... walked in the giant and I've asked where like the crumb cake is, I've never asked, who founded this store? No. Never occurred to me. Israel Cohen, the giant food chairman who built his company into the largest regional grocery store chain in the nation.

This is his announcement of his death in 1995, died of the age of 83. This is the post story. a pioneer in the industry let's see if there's when he launched it so this is his obituary yeah let me ask you a question okay so his what

no go ahead so Cohen had controlled the company since 1964 when his father who was the company co-founder Nehemiah Mir Cohen N. M. Cohen, along with Joe Danzansky, they were the co-owners. That names a very familiar name in the Washington area as well. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. He was the guy who tried to buy the Padres and move them to Washington. Right. The father first operated a kosher butcher shop that was in the mid-30s,

went into partnership in Washington with Sam Lairman. The Lairmans are also obviously for those of you that know the history of giant, a big name in the giant family. They began a self-service grocery store in Washington, D.C. It would look like in the mid-30s. Oh, here it is. The first store opened in the midst of a snowstorm on February 6, 1936, on Georgia Avenue and Park Road, Northwest.

which Tommy, I can tell you, somebody may correct me on this, that that was really the wealthy area of Washington, D.C. during that part of history. When you go back to the 1930s, 1940s, Park Road, Georgia Avenue, that part of Northwest, because really the rest of the city, and certainly the suburbs, had not been built out yet.

But there you go. First store, a giant store, February 6th, 1936, George Avenue. When they write your obituary, do you think they'll include your grocery store era? I hope not. I hope they just say, you know, remember it as part of, as the co-host of the sports fix with the legendary Tom Levero. You know, I always tried to get Andy and Steve to do that on the sports reporters that we should all write each other's obituaries and see what it would like, see what it would say. But they never would do that.

It was too modeling for them. Yeah, it is. It's a bit macabre. Well, Dave didn't want to write more than three sentences, so about anything. Andy was up for it because he always thought he's going to live to be honest. Yeah, I mean, I can see Andy being up to it, but yeah, to me, it's a bit too grim thinking. But anyway, all right, typical per this show, we've not gotten to anything that we actually intended to talk about, but we will when we come back right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

Don't forget to rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify, some really good Apple reviews. lots of you giving us five stars and writing even more than one to two sentence reviews, although this was one sentence. It came from BeGis 3. Awesome podcast. Kevin and Tom are hilarious together. Also, the number one rated podcast for the Delaware Sports Podcast Association. Thank you.

You know, the accolades keep coming in. This is from Sean. Love listening to the show because Kevin and Tom, just seem like one of us, the regular Joe. They both show a personable side when they tear off into a rant, cussing and yelling and arguing sports, just like we do in the barbershopper at the bar. They never seem like radio personalities or journalists.

Just one of the guys. It's what makes this show different and special, and I'll never stop listening to it. For God's sakes, watch the wire, Kevin. And then from G.C. Falcon, Hoya. There is a reason why the DC Sports Podcast Association ranked them number one. Kevin and Tom are simply the best. As a lifelong D.C. area resident now living in Connecticut, listening to this show every day reminds me of home and helps me never forget the daily pain and struggle we all go through as fans of the Dumfries commanders.

Misery loves company. Also, Kevin fixed the crest, so we owe him. Yes, you do owe him. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Look, I was one of many that, you know, was outraged by the dates on the crest that they had wrong. And I had Jason Wright on the show. And I told them, and our good friend, by the way, our good old friend, I shouldn't say good friend. Our listener, longtime listener, Ian, who I actually don't mind, Ian,

Ian said to me this morning, as we were talking about what happened over the weekend, you know, when you drop the line on Jason Wright, ask your head coach if he played for the 85 bears or the 86 bears. He's like, that's probably what did it more than anything else. And I go, that's nice, and that's nice of G.C. Falcon Hoy to say that they were getting absolutely ripped from every corner of town. fans, media, etc. On the crest.

And they fixed it. And they were in this position again this weekend, Tommy, with another gaffe, another avoidable gaffe. But they seem unwilling to reach out to those of us that could help them before making these mistakes. And they made another one over the weekend. And so let's get to the topic of trends. Trent Williams being omitted from the list of names for fans to vote the next 10 off of the 80 greatest to add 10 for 90 total as part of the celebration of the 90th year anniversary of the franchise's existence. They didn't have Trent Williams, the obvious name that should be on there, more than any of the other names that should have been on there. Trent Williams is, without question, the best player that was, you know,

drafted by Dan Snyder's team, played for Dan Snyder's team, and is the one that will go into the Hall of Fame. There are others. Champ Bailey is going to go into the Hall of Fame, obviously. And Champ Bailey will go into the Hall of Fame as a Denver Bronco. He was drafted by Washington, but not. but that happened before Dan Snyder took control of the team in 1999. But I've railed on radio the last two days about this.

I first want to hear your reaction and then I'll give mine here on the podcast. So what did you make of not just Trent Williams being off the list, but all of the spelling errors, the dates they got wrong, the labeling of positions like labeling Richie Pettibone is one of the 80 greatest, saying that he was the head coach from 1981 to 1992. Just one gaff after another, avoidable gaff. All you needed was an editor to avoid some of these gaffes. What was your reaction to the whole thing? Okay, well, in an organization like this, after everything it's been through, for the small errors,

to still be surfacing, speak still to the bigger picture of how they do business. I mean, if you can't get the small things right that you can control, how can you possibly change the culture of an organization that's had arguably the worst culture we've seen in sports in our lifetime? Okay, that the small things, they speak to a bigger issue. And here's what I don't get. If you run this team, I don't get how you did not have a meeting way back when, where basically you kicked ass and took names of everybody in that room.

And you said, we don't make mistakes anymore. Zero. You just have to be diligent beyond any possible belief. and you hire people to make sure that they're diligent beyond any possible belief. We can't afford to look like this anymore. Our goal is to get it right, not necessarily to make some massive change, not necessarily to win over fans. It's just to get what we do right.

Okay? It should be our obsession every day. They should play a recording in that building every day. Like the morning announcements in school where you say, make sure you don't screw up anything today. But they don't do that. It's again, it speaks to the futility of this whole change of culture. You know, and they're not capable of doing the small things, then they're not capable of doing the big things.

You know, there's that argument always. You know, if you don't get the details, if you don't get the little things right, you'll never get the big things right. And anybody that's, you know, been involved in a business and been responsible for, you know, the big picture of the business, I think understands that. So there is that. And it's really hard to argue that.

Now, how much you care right now about these little things that they're messing up, which has now become sort of standard operating procedure. You know, that's a subjective thing. But really not debatable is when you can't get the little things right, as they haven't gotten for a long period of time, it's really hard to get the big things right. And of course, we know they've never gotten the big things right. And things, I want to get to, you know, what happened,

why it happened, what I've learned about what happened here in a moment. but really to sort of extend a little bit on your point, things that should result in a hundred percent positive of a reaction, like, hey, it's 90 years, we're adding 10 more to the greatest of all time list, and we're going to allow you guys to vote on it. This should have been nothing but a positive. It's July. There's nothing else going on. We're still a month, you know, three weeks away from training camp, a month away from the first preseason game. Just like, you know, Sean Taylor, just like 2 to 22.

Although that's a bad example. Take that out because that's not, that was going to be a polarizing issue from day one. Maybe not even polarizing. Just like all of these things that they're trying to do to, on the business side, to create positive, they just keep. butchering. They don't get right. And the mistakes they make are so avoidable. So the bottom line is, like, what should be a positive is a negative. And if they took any amount of time to really focus in on this, get people involved that could really help them, they would avoid this. And they'd end up with 100% positive. But again, but something that should have been positive was turned into a

controversial, mostly negative over the last couple of days. And for, them to once again write a wrong, a wrong that was completely avoidable. Here's the other thing, too. Do you know the name Jim Van Stone? Does that name ring familiar to you at all? No, it doesn't. Jim Van Stone is the president of business operations for the Wizards and the Caps and monumental sports.

I'd never heard of his name either, had to look it up. And I want to just make this overarching themed point. Jason Wright is taking a beating, which by the way is deserved. We shouldn't even know Jason Wright's name. If this were a normal organization, we wouldn't even know Jason Wright's name. I can't tell you I've ever heard of Jim Van Stone's name before. Never once. I can promise you right now.

Now, if you pull the name and you say it, it'll probably ring familiar and I may have to correct myself. But I have no idea off the top of my head who was running the business operations as the president of the organization during the Jack Kent Cook, Bobby Bether, Charlie Casserly, Joe Gibbs days. There are most fan bases don't know the name of the guy that runs the business operation, the president of the organization or the president of the business. business side. Most organizations don't know the name of the PR people. You know, they don't, it's only in this organization. This is unique. I'm not saying that there aren't organizations where you don't know, you know, that the president of the organization is, is some name. Like, I certainly know the name Dick Patrick, who's a long time senior executive for First Abe Poland and Ted Leonis over the years. We shouldn't even know Jason Wright's name.

other than in his case, because he was the first African-American NFL team president hired, we would have known his name. But he should have immediately in a normal organization slid to the background. You know, he shouldn't be front and center like he is. But why is he? Well, because everybody, everybody, just like they did with Brian Lafamina, they're globbing on to just somebody to save us, somebody to save us from this wretched owner that we have.

And so... Yeah. And so... Yeah. I think you're right. I think fans, you know, see Jason Wright. And when you hear Jason Wright, you know, he carries with him an air of confidence that makes you feel good when you do hear him speak.

So you're right. I think people do see him as a symbol of salvation. Although I think they did. I'm not sure they do anymore, but they did. Yes, just like with Brian Lafamina. I mean, you know, you told them day one, rent don't buy. Same, you know, same advice you gave a guy like Jason Wright. Look, when you come in and work for Dan Snyder, it's going to get messy for you.

There's no way to avoid it. No way to avoid it. Now, when you come in as a very bright, you know, very sought-after executive from McKinsey, you know, and by the way, you're the first African-American team president in the history of the league, and, you know, you're working in an organization that's high profile for all of the wrong reasons. There's going to be a little bit more of a magnifying glass, and we probably would have known Jason, even if the organization were somewhat normal. But a lot of what's coming down on him,

and some of this is under his responsibility, you know, in his responsibility bucket, a lot of it. So he deserves a lot of this criticism for this. But if it weren't for this kind of an organization, we wouldn't know that he was at fault for a lot of this. You know? And so when this first came out, a lot of us, you, me, everybody that's followed this team, just said, oh my God, another gaff.

And this one just reeks of Dan Snyder's small-mindedness, you know, his pettiness, you know, because of the way that Trent Williams thing, you know, ended. And again, let me be clear on this. I've talked to enough people over the last three years to know that this is probably more than a he said he said, that Trent Williams may have been dishonest in the way he portrayed the way things took place between him and the organization. His cancer, how it was diagnosed, the urgency and care that the team gave him. I'm not taking the team's training and medical staff, you know, off the hook for as bad as

it's been. Look, I mean, Chase Young just went out to Colorado, chose outside the organization to do his rehab. off of his injury, then choose, you know, probably a preferred organizational way of doing it. But I think that the Trent Williams thing is a situation in which, you know, he contributed to the animus. And, you know, in this particular situation, not to defend the organization, but I think they did do a lot that Trent perhaps didn't disclose. But, you know, the organization was never going to get the benefit of the doubt in that confrontation. They were always going to assume the worst about the organization, which is why the organization

was angry. And they felt betrayed. They felt that Trent, you know, essentially was dishonest. It hurt the organization and that they had really backed Trent multiple times through two different weed suspensions. And it given him the big contract. and it put a lot of faith in him as a person, despite the fact that he let them down on multiple occasions. In 2016, when he got suspended for four games late in the season, that was very critical to the team's effort to qualify for the playoffs for a second straight year, which would have been the only time it's happened since 9192. And so, you know, the team and Bruce in particular, Bruce wanted to be a very, Bruce won a

to bleed Trent dry, figuratively, of course. He was pissed. Dan was not happy. Trent played it up as if his relationship with Dan he hoped was okay, that this was more of a Bruce thing. But his relationship with Dan was not okay. It wasn't. Now, was Dan as pissed at Trent and ready to break and bleed him dry like like Bruce was, perhaps not. But the first thing I thought of was this organization is doing what it did with Kirk Cousins when it didn't trade him to San Francisco for the second overall pick, you know, because they didn't want to trade him to the Shanahan's. You know, they're being petty here.

Now, this doesn't impact football operations, but it's that pettiness that they have shown over and over again that's come from the top more often than not. Now, you know, Bruce and Dan both did not want to give Kyle Shanahan his quarterback. By the way, the guy that tweeted me, I saw that this early this morning. No way was San Francisco willing to give number two overall for Kirk Cousins. How do you know that? Well, because Mike Shanahan told me that on this podcast. Told me that.

Jay Gruden confirmed it that he learned of that as well when he was in the organization. even though he wasn't in charge. He said that it was his understanding that the 49ers offered number two and more for Kirk Cousins before the 2017 season. So I thought, look, connect the dots here. This is, you know, this is Dan. So here's what I've learned Tommy since. So right when I got done with my radio show yesterday, incredibly, you know, they immediate. put Trent Williams on the list with RG3.

RG3 doesn't belong on that list, by the way, for one season. But they put Trent Williams on the list. And I talked to some people. They were interested in speaking to me about my reaction to the Trent Williams thing. And they insisted that Dan had nothing to do with it. Not that they said that Dan and Trent's relationship is great. But they did say that Bruce was more of the issue with Trent, But that the organization absolutely was, as a whole, very disappointed and felt betrayed.

By the way, Trent Williams handled the whole thing. But that Dan didn't have anything to do with it. Okay. Like with the Sean Taylor stuff, when they called me to say, Dan didn't have anything to do with putting together a last second, 11th hour Jersey retirement ceremony weekend for Sean Taylor to sort of deflect from the ugly news of the day, whichever it was. I mean, there's so many things to choose from.

I can't even remember specifically what it was during that week. But, you know, they went out of their way to say, you know, he's involved in a lot of shit, a lot of bad stuff, a lot of, you know, different things, but this was not him. And I said, and then they, and then I was told that Trent Williams was on the list, on the list, voted by the 80 greatest Redskins who got the first chance. to vote on a list that would be made available to the public. And Trent Williams was supposed to be on that list, which turned out to be 15 players and ex-coaches.

And so I said, well, why wasn't he then? Why was he taken off if it wasn't Dan? And the answer was very convoluted, very vague, very, you know, could not discuss that. but I guess there is potentially still some ongoing stuff with Trent. That's what I surmised. I don't know why it would have stopped them from leaving them on a list for fans to vote for. But anyway, they put him back on the list.

They admitted they got it wrong again like they did with the Crest, like they did with Sean Taylor's, you know, rushed, you know, opportunity for fans to come out and honor him, like they keep doing. They righted the wrong. I give him credit for that, Tommy, because there is a time when they would have never admitted that they made any mistakes.

And they now have him available to be voted on for the next 10 along with Robert Griffin, the third. So that's where we are on this. I don't know what else to say. I mean, it's until, like you said, until they have people dotting eyes, in crossing T's, not once, but 15 to 30 times before any of these ideas get flushed out in front of the public, they're just going to continue, I would assume, to make these mistakes. They have people they could go to.

They've chosen not to use those people. I've said this many times previously. They haven't had recently anybody in the organization that knows anything about the football part of the organization recently. or certainly historically. And yet, many of you listening could have taken this website as a beta user and in 10 minutes put together an email back to their team to say, here are the 37 mistakes that we found. The biggest being, where the hell is Trent Williams on this list? He is the best player, Sean Taylor, you know, right there with him,

the best player of the Dan Snyder era, a seven-time pro-border in eight seasons here, and he'll be in the Hall of Fame one day. He'll go in as a 49er, I'm sure, but now he is on the list. Let me put this to you. Let's say the possibility that it's true that Dan Snyder had nothing to do with this. directly. Yeah. Okay.

Let me put this to you as, again, another reason why as long as Dan Snyder's the owner, that things will never change, it's certainly entirely possible that somebody down, low, in the organization, thought, well, what would Dan do? Okay. He wouldn't have him on this list. Yeah. No, good point. Yeah.

I know it's like they're, I mean, the owner's persona, again, consumes the organization. His presence hovers over it. People want to believe the worst of it. They certainly are going to believe that Dan Snyder had everything to do with this. And if he didn't, it's only because that people below him are acting as they think Dan Snyder would want them to act. Yeah, like we said last week, the only people that defend him are people that are still employed by him and are being paid by him. Those are the only people left that defend him. I mean, I'm not saying that there's been any sort of sizable group of people that have defended him outside of the people that are on his payroll for a long time now.

I mean, I have a caller and Ivan who listens and calls into the radio show all the time who I think is the only person I know of that isn't employed by the organization. that actually defends Dan Snyder on a regular basis. But other than that, I mean, as we've discussed, he's the most despised person figure in the history of this city that isn't a politician. And it's been headed in that direction for, you know, certainly 15 years. Actually, that reminds me of something that just remind me about,

no, I'm going to say it right now, so I don't forget. Because whatever I was going to say isn't important. One of my sons asked me the other, day. When did people start to realize how bad Dan Snyder was as an owner? It's an interesting question. The 2000 season, his second season, 99, he got in too late, you know, as the owner approved by the, you know, the league, took over after the Brad Johnson was trade. Charlie Casserly has told us before that he did attempt to undo the trade. He was not in favor of the Brad Johnson trade. he tried to undo it, but it was too late. The league was not going to undo the trade. And thankfully, they didn't because that's one of his only two playoff wins to his credit during the course of

his ownership, which he had nothing to do with and actually tried to destroy before the season started. But Brad Johnson obviously had, you know, a massive season. By the way, Brad Johnson is not on the all-time 80 list. I just want to mention that because he had one of the great, incredible seasons in 2000. You know, RG3 had an incredible season. RG3's on this list. I'm not saying RG3's in and he's going to be added to it. But Brad Johnson, you know, I also mentioned Brandon Sheriff should have been on there. Brandon Sheriff is a five-time pro bowler. How is he not on the list? But anyway, when did we start to know?

When did we start to have this sense? I think it was the 2000 fantasy football offseason. you know, Bruce Smith, Dion Sanders, Jeff George, Mark Carrier, et cetera, where he started spending like he was drunk for the first time. But I don't think I felt that way. But some people claim they started to feel that way. It was absolutely the 2000 season. I'll give you an example why.

before Marty Schottenheimer was hired for 2001, he had gone, he was doing TV work as an analyst. Right. And during the 2000 season, he had trashed dance, I know. You know, that's why people were so stunned that he wound up working for Snyder because he had publicly trashed him. Right.

So the word was out. Okay, the word was out then. And Theheimer, of all people, you know, spreading the gospel against Dan Snyder. So I'd say it was the 2000 season. I think that, I mean, he quickly nullified it by hiring a guy who had criticized him. Okay? But then by, you know, when, you know, they basically forced that guy out the door at the end of the year

that brought it all back again. And then he was able to nullify it again by hiring Spurrier. You know, he's always had the move to basically change the conversation until the conversation was so overwhelming, it couldn't be changed anymore. I mean, the Spurrier move, the Schottenheimer move, the Spurrier, the Gibbs move, the Shannan move. All these were basically changed the conversation, although even by Shannahan, it was by, you know, at some point a losing cause.

And now it just can't be changed. It's impossible. I understand what you're saying. I just didn't feel that way at the time. And, you know, I was, I was a number, you know, a top, I was a one-percenter in the fan base in terms of the passion and the understanding of it and the following of it. And I remember that 2000 off season. I was not like, oh, this is terrible. This is the wrong way to build the team.

I'm like, wow, Dion Sanders is going to play for this team. You know, they've added a pass rusher. You know, they're coming off a division-winning season. Tommy, the 2000 season going into it, I've mentioned this many times in the past, is the last time 22 years ago that Washington was considered to be a legitimate upper-tier Super Bowl contender. They were one of the top three picks in the NFL to win the Super Bowl before 2000 started. They had won a playoff game the year before against Detroit, and they were within a whisker of going to the NFC championship game, which would have been against the Rams, greatest show on turf.

The Bucks won the game, came back from a 13-0 deficit and won the game 14 to 13. Brad Johnson was kind of hurt and the arm went dead, and then Dan Turk's snap back to his brother dribbled back to him, and we never had a chance for a game-winning field goal. But Washington, heading into that season, was a Super Bowl favorite. And by the way, they were six in two at one point, even after they had benched Brad Johnson and put Jeff George out there. And then the end of the season came, and Eddie Murray missed those kicks that Norv Turner sent him out to kick that he had no chance of making.

and, you know, Norve got fired. And then in the offseason hired Marty. For me, it was when he fired Marty. When he fired Marty after that one season, that was the time I remember saying he's now fired two coaches in two years. The fantasy football thing didn't work out. Bruce Smith, by the way, is making me nauseous.

He really did. The whole, all he was there for was the record. He didn't care of winning at that point. And Marty, I've said this a million times, single biggest mistake football-wise, not all the toxic workplace stuff. Firing Marty is the biggest mistake Dan Snyder's made. They would have won division championships, plural. They would have been in the playoffs year and year out for a long period of time. They would have threatened years to be a legitimate Super Bowl contender winning 12, 13, 14 games.

And he had that thing on the right track. He won eight of his final 11 games with Tony Banks and Kent Graham and won Audible. And he was, you know, in search of a legitimate quarterback. He was going to need to find, you know, an upgraded quarterback. But he had in one year changed completely the culture of the organization. and it was on the path to a winning culture. But as we know, Dan wasn't having enough fun. He wanted to take back the personnel control, bring Vinny back, and Marty said, no, thank you.

You two are not going to be involved in this stuff. And they parted ways. So for me, it was at the end of 2001. I remember being distraught in saying, this is a massive mistake. and this guy's ego is out of control, and it's not going to lead anything good. But so hiring Spurrier? No. No.

Okay. That wasn't a sound for you? I'm not saying that, you know, at that point, because I was still engaged and still super, it was still very important, that there was an excitement for me around Spurrier to see what would happen. but I was pissed about the firing of Marty Schottenheimer. Pissed. I thought it was like, what are we? And Jack Kent Cook would have never done this. You know, we were still at the point where, you know, comparing it.

And remember, it was in the rear view at that point, 10 years, the last Super Bowl. We had gone a decade without, you know, we were now. Now, the Norve years, there were a lot of bad years before the division title. And then when they got Marty in and you could tell, and the young people in that organization like LaVar Arrington had totally bought into it. Darrell Green and Bruce Smith and some of the guys that were getting ready to retire were not into Marty, but it didn't matter. You saw the product on the field.

You saw what they had and you saw them fight back and nearly, nearly make the postseason. They had a game late in the year against Chicago and Erlocker scored on a fake field goal and if that doesn't go down that way, Washington's playing for a playoff berth down the stretch after starting 0 and 5, which by the way was what Gibbs did. 0 and 5, 8 of the final 11, 8 and 8,

the next year was a Super Bowl. And that's what I saw it as. I saw look at what he did, 8 out of the final 11, and man, they were one tough, hard-hitting team. at the end of that season. I mean, they really, really were well-coached, and, you know, he knew what he was doing, but what are you going to do?

So that was for me the beginning of really questioning the ownership. Now, I didn't turn on the team. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What about the gives hire? Had me back. Hook, line, and sinker. There we go.

He fucked it up badly with Marty, but you know what, after these two years, which by the way were a disastrous two years with Spurrier. And that was another thing, right? You know, them going down. And then by the way, the stories really started to come out. Because he hired Spurrier, got rid of Marty and hired Spurrier so he could have fun again. And he could be down there with his stopwatch and mobile timing players and working out quarterbacks. and so we, you know, we had the Patrick Ramsey selection. That was not a Steve Spurrier selection. And so those years, 2002, 2003 were disaster. I mean, the end of the Spurrier era where he's sitting out and he's turned over, you know,

all of the play calling duties that team that year to what's his face, the Cleveland Browns coach that went 116. Hugh Jackson. When he turned it over to Hugh Jackson and said, oh, Hugh's going to call the ball plays. And Spurrier's sitting back on the heated bench in that cold game where it was sleeting and raining, and he had the heavy coat and the hood over his head,

and he's on the heated benches. And you're like, he's already out the door. He doesn't want anything to do with this anymore. But then I was all back in with Joe, all back in. But Tommy, the 2006 off season in, particular, you could smell that that was not a Gibbs off season, that he was deferring too much to Dan and Vinny. And that's when I really, because that's when I, that was the first year I did the Riggins show. And I did this whole thing. I'll never forget it on how this is a poorly

run organization from a personnel standpoint. And that, you know, Dan and Vinny involved, they're disastrous. And Joe, you know, is kind of allowing this. And they've got to get rid of Vinny and hire a real general manager. And that was in 2006. But look, my passion didn't really, really start to depart until the Shanahan RG3 disaster. And the owner siding with the 23, 24-year-old over a staff that had all of these future head coaches that would win playoff games, plural in Super Bowls.

it wasn't until then. The Shanahan ending, even though I know that he didn't handle himself the best way he could, but that was, look, I've told you before, Dan has apparently apologized to Mike for what he did. It doesn't matter. It's too late. And things have not improved since then.

That was really sort of the beginning, a little bit of the end. But then, you know, they had the year in 20, 2015 and 2016, and, you know, they were a fun team to watch offensively, and you know what I thought of cousins, and they finally had a quarterback that, you know, you could potentially win some playoff games with down the road if they stuck with it, but then they fucked that up. But for me, not as a fan, but is evaluating their opportunities as an organization, Shanahan was their last chance. That was it. I mean, after the Shanahan's, fell apart, I never bought into.

I thought after the second season, that Jay Gruden should have been fired for losing that Giants game. I had no confidence in Jay Gruden as the head coach. So, I mean, it was the Sanahan. That was the first season. His first season was 24. Yeah, his first season is 2014. His second season was a playoff season.

Okay, then the third season. They lost the Giants game at the end of the season. where they could have made the playoffs. Oh, yeah. When the Giants had nothing to play for. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, when they had a chance to go. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, so I mean, for me, it was the Shanahan thing to just in evaluating that this will never change. That that was their last chance to change it. Right. Okay, we got some Jacoby and Hall of Fame stuff to wrap the show up with. That's next right after the. these words from a few of our sponsors. Washington's odds on my bookie to miss the playoffs minus 198. Okay, so if you're going to bet on them to miss the playoffs,

you have to wager $198 to win $100 or $19.80 to win $10. So meaning they are favored by almost 2 to 1 to not make the playoffs. There are also some odds on them finishing in various places in the division. There are odds on finishing in first place plus 500, 5 to 1. Second place, 3 to 1. Fourth place and third place, the same odds at plus 189. That's the kind of stuff you'll find at MyBooky. All of these prop bets for the NFL season, for the college football season.

Go to MyBooky.com or MyBooky.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C., and they'll match your first time. deposit dollar for dollar all the way up to a thousand bucks when you sign up if there's something already in the promo code section erase it and write kevin dc my bookie fair odds fair point spreads you're not going to be taken advantage uh of on on vigs um and lines uh it's a real first rate shop you can trust them my bookie dot a g my bookie dot com use my promo code Kevin D.C. So last week, at the end of the week, they announced Tommy the pro football Hall of Fame did,

their class of semifinalists for the seniors and for the coaches and contributors category. And among the 25 semifinalists for the senior Hall of Fame induction, possibility, abilities. Joe Jacoby was on that list. Joe Jacoby no longer can make it the normal route. He's not now has to go in through the senior route. And he's on a list of 25 players. That'll be narrowed down to 12. I think at the end of this month. And then they will vote and will know Super Bowl weekend who the senior nominees into the Hall of Fame are. So he's on this list. You've seen this list. We both think, Jake, you know, we don't have to sit here and do what we've done, you know, three dozen times previously to tell everybody that we believe that Joe Jacoby should already be in

the Hall of Fame and that it's criminal that he isn't. But what do you make of this senior list and his chances to get in this year? Well, I wonder to think I wrote my calm and you can read it. You can go on my Twitter account and find it or Facebook or you can read it Washington Times.com slash sports, is that, you know, these are all fine, great players. None of them meant as much to their franchises as Joe Jacoby did to the Redskins. None of them were the championship identity of their organization, meaning the hogs literally are the championship identity of the Redskins' glory years, and the anchor of the Hogs, one of them was Joe Jacoby.

And, you know, I think his chances are really good this time around. I don't want to get anyone hopes up, but they changed the voting for the final ballot. Previously, they would only have one senior member on the final ballot for inclusion to vote on. Now they're going to have because they have a backlog of great players who aren't getting in. They've expanded it to three senior members for the next three years to be on the final ballot for voting. Okay, so I think his chances have improved dramatically. And I just don't see how anyone in their right mind wouldn't vote for Joe Chicovy for the Hall of Fame. I just don't get it.

I mean, it's almost illogical. You know, I don't know. Look, the Hall of Fame football process is there's a. voter from each that represents each team, and they all get in a room. They're mostly sports writers, or media, and they all get in the room the Saturday before the Super Bowl and stand up and make a case for their respective players from their franchises. And then they vote this group of, I don't know, 32, 40 people who do this, whereas the baseball Hall of fame, you get a ballot sent to you in the mail, you fill it out, you.

send it back. Okay? People may hate the baseball hall fame, but I think the process is a lot more fair than it is the pro football hall fame. But that said, I just don't see how, particularly with the expanded chances that Jacoby is in it. I don't see how it could happen.

I agree with you, obviously. I mean, it goes without saying that Jake should have already been in the normal route. By the way, you know, there's another, there are two other redskins. on this list. Do you know that? Did you know that? Are you looking at it right now? I'm sorry, my fault. There's one other former Redskins on this list. On the total list? On the senior list? On the senior list. He came here and played for George Allen for one season. He played for George Allen in Los Angeles. Maxie Bond. Maxie Bond. Maxie Bond. It was a Redskin.

So Jake should be in this year off of this list, but can I just give you a couple of other names real quickly? Ken Anderson should be in the Hall of Fame. I've always felt that Ken Anderson was a Hall of Fame quarterback, and I think he's going to get in via the senior committee. And I think that there are two corners on this list that also will either get in this time, one of them will, or they'll get in in the future. Lester Hayes and Everson Walls. Both of them... They'll get in. Lester Hayes...

Well, let me start with Everson Walls. Everson Walls was a three-time first-team all-pro. Okay? Not pro-bowler. He was a three-time first-team all-pro in 82, 83, and 85. And three times, three times he led the league in interceptions. By the way, there's only one other NFL player in the head. history of the game that has led the league three times in interceptions, and that was Ed Reed

in Baltimore. So Everson Walls, I think, is going to get in through this senior route. Lester Hayes was a five-time pro bowler and was a first team all pro once and a five-time second team all-pro, and he was elected to the 1980s all-decade team. By the way, both Everson Walls and Lester Hayes Super Bowl champions as well. In Hayes' case, a two-time Super Bowl champion. By the way, in 1980, the NFL defensive player of the year, Lester Hayes was. So I think both of those guys and Ken Anderson will get in. And I think, look, there's some guys here that I don't know enough about. I'm sure you can tell me more about Tommy Nobis and some of these other guys that probably deserve it, Jim Marshall.

But for me, Jake, Ken Anderson, Hayes, and Walls are the names that jump out as, yeah, those guys probably are going to get in via this route. So. I think that Novos has a chance. Like I said, you know, for the next three years, they'll be picking three seniors. to be on the final ballot. I think Joe Pleco has a chance from the Jets to be on there as well. Part of that Gastonaut group that really, really got after the quarterback.

Otis Taylor is on the list. I mean, we know one thing that he can claim. He can claim that he got his ass kicked by Jack Del Rio. But he was also a great player for the Chiefs. You know, had a touchdown in Super Bowl 4 for Hank Stram and Len Dawson's Chiefs. Let me just mention real quickly. There's a name on here, Laverne Dilwig. Are you familiar with that name at all?

No, I'm not. Are you? I am. He played for the Green Bay Packers of the late 20s and 30s. I have heard his name many times during the course of his life because his grandson. Anthony Dilwig and I were high school friends and high school basketball teammates. And Anthony was the first quarterback at Duke during the Steve Spurrier era, set every ACC record there was and played in the NFL with the Packers for a few years

right before a year before Brett Farth joined the Packers. So there you go. He is the grandson of Laverne Dilwig, who is on this list. of senior eligibility for the Hall of Fame. Anthony was an unbelievable high school quarterback, a great college quarterback, and he was a really good high school basketball player, too. He was a good athlete, a really good overall athlete.

Anthony was a friend of mine, and I knew his father very well, and his father listened to this podcast and to the radio show over the years before his passing, you know, a year or two ago, I think, at this point. So anyway, what else do you have on this? Oh, the coach is a list. Shanahan is on the list. Shanahan and Marty are both on the list.

You know what I think. I think Mike is a Hall of Fame or not just for his two Super Bowls and his overall record, but his contribution to the game as an offensive innovator. I think that Mike Shanahan deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. But number one on this list

should be Marty Schottenheimer. I talked about this on Friday. Marty Schottenheimer should be in the Hall of Fame. He's one of the great coaches of all time. He's one of only eight coaches with 200 wins. His 613 winning percentage is offset by his 5 and 13 playoff record. And that's really why Marty's not in the Hall of Fame is because of his playoff record.

Everybody understands that. But as I detailed, there was a lot of bad luck in those playoff games the drive, the fumble. He had two field goal kickers, missed kicks that would have advanced them at the end. And then in a game, when they were 14 and 2 in San Diego playing the Patriots, they intercepted Brady to end the game. And the guy fumbled on the return back to the Patriots,

and Brady went down and won the game. Things that were kind of out of his control. Now, I did say, and I think fairly so, that Marty did get conservative in the postseason. And some of the biggest games of his career, he got a bit too conservative. maybe some of those games wouldn't have come down to a kick or a fumbled interception return if he had, you know, been a little bit more aggressive.

He was the anti-Joe Gibbs in the postseason. Joe Gibbs rolled out all of the trick stuff. He went for it in the postseason. And I think Marty, like George Allen, sort of, you know, got conservative and said, we're good enough as long as we don't beat ourselves. But Marty should be in the Hall of Fame. I think Marty and Mike should be in a hall of fame. I think Mike's going to have a hard time.

Why do you think Mike will have a hard time? Well, because I think the redskins stain will be tough to wash off. It's funny how many people in the game, especially in the last few years with the Kyle and the McSheae and the Lafleur and, you know, everybody else coming now off the Kyle tree. it's amazing how much more, or how much recently Shanahan's name and his accomplishments and contribution to the game

keeps getting brought up. I think he's got a much better chance now than he did right after he left here. Maybe he does. I think there's a recognition with his tree of the ongoing impact that he has had on this game, including

what we've seen the last, you know, few years from San Francisco and from L.A. and from, you know, all of the teams that employ especially the Shanahan run scheme. All right, you got anything else? I got nothing else for you, boss. Did anything happen while we were on the air? Any investigation, any congressional stuff, any Snyder stuff? Probably, but we'll just deal with it. can determine. But we'll just deal with it tomorrow. Not that I can see.

Okay. We're done. I'll be back tomorrow.