The Kevin Sheehan Show - Trent Williams: Skins Ring of Fame?

Episode Date: April 28, 2020

Kevin and Thom today talking Skins' draft, Trent Williams trade, and whether or not Williams will one day be welcomed into the Redskins Ring of Fame. Also discussed was Chase Young's application for a personal brand/slogan trademark. The boys talked Dennis Rodman and The Last Dance too. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yep, Sports Fix Tuesday, Tommy from home. I'm in studio, Aaron producing from home. We haven't heard from Tommy on his thoughts on the Redskins draft, on the Trent Williams trade, on The Last Dance, episodes three and four. Got a lot going on today. I don't. I don't. do want to start, however, with whether or not you have seen the pictures of Alex Smith's leg four days after the original surgery after breaking the leg in November of 2018. This is, TMZ got access to the photos. This is the documentary that's coming out Friday called Project 11, which is about Alex Smith's recovery from that broken leg. Have you seen the picture of the leg four days after he broke it? Yeah. Yes, I have. Oh.

If you're worried about coronavirus, this should give you hope. Because if they can turn that thing into a leg that he can now run around on, then that's a miracle of modern medicine. This is a picture, if you haven't seen it, that is incredibly gruesome. It is and does really require sort of a one. warning of graphic content. It looks like the legs that you see after a shark attack. You know, like a chunk of the leg has been bitten off by a shark and you see that, you know, during Shark Week, or if you read about the Great White Shark attacks or any kind

of shark attacks, it does not look like it's a leg, really. I mean, to be, to be honest, it doesn't even look like it's a leg. It's so, it's so scary looking. and to your point, it's just miraculous that he is recovered to the point where he is able to walk normally. Well, I don't know if it's a normal walk anymore. 18 surgeries. When you actually had the initial news of all of the surgeries that he had had, no one else had that had that, when you had that, how many surgeries did you say he had had? At that point, it was 17.

Okay. So you actually had that it was 17 surgeries? Yes. Okay. And that's what he told a group of medical professionals at a seminar he spoke at, what's the medical company, the Redskins or. Inova. Inova.

He did a speech just internally at Inova and told him he had 17 surgeries at that point. Yeah, I think counting the first one, the initial one, when he went into the hospital after the surgery, it was 18 in total. At least that's what it says. Okay. But wow, really unbelievable pictures. And, you know, such a great story of him recovering from this. And apparently this is going to be a cool documentary that will air on Friday and on ESPN. And we'll see.

I mean, what he went through, we know that he was, you know, in septic shock. he could have died. There was fear that he would lose his life. Then there was a choice he had to make between amputation and some sort of significant procedure that he, you know, that wasn't necessarily, you know, going to work for sure. But he had that procedure, saved his leg. His life was saved. And, you know, I mean, thank God, you know, whether he plays football or not is so immaterial after you see this picture. And I guess after we see this documentary, and he's not going to play football again. I mean, how could you look at that leg and think that somebody could play professional football again?

He does. Yeah, I don't think he's going to, though. I think it's all part of sort of the working back as a competitive athlete to get into a position where if he had to play, you know, he could conceivably go out there and be, you know, somebody's backup, but not really play. I don't think he'll be on the roster in 2020. But I think that it's cool that he's working towards that. and he's already made progress that I think some never thought he would make,

which is, you know, he's walking, you know, on two legs, not one. And it should be an interesting show, anyway. I'm rooting for him to come back to play, you know. Yeah, I don't, I don't, he's not, I don't think he'll play, and I don't think that that's in the cards. I can't imagine. You're probably right. You're probably right.

on both counts, but I am so rooting for him come training camp to be one of the quarterbacks there competing for a job. That would be really cool, you know. I can't imagine they're going to let anybody hit him, but that would be really cool if he were back there, you know, throwing balls around in training camp just to show that he actually, you know, came back and participated in the training camp. If he's on their roster, I'll pay you $100 if he's on their final roster. Okay, look, I'm not bad you because I don't think of it.

And I hope he is. And by the way, I hope he is. Although I just can't imagine that given what that family's been through, and by the way, given his economic stature, the amount of money that he's made, that he would risk that with young children, that he would ever risk going back out into a football field. I agree. I mean, you know, for his sake, there's part of me that hopes he doesn't. But for the sake of the story, I hope he's there.

come the first day of training camp, whatever that is. And the longer that is, the longer that is the weight, the better his chance goes up, I would think. Yeah, I would be blown away if he ever took a snap in an NFL game preseason or otherwise ever again. I mean, a seven-on-seven drill in Richmond in the summer, you know, that would be cool. That would be cool to see. All right, let's get to the weekend. I spent a lot of time yesterday going through the Trent Williams trade and the draft. I want you to go through it with me and get your thoughts. Let's start with what you deemed to be the big story, which was the Trent Williams trade, and it certainly was a huge story.

What did you make of it? Well, I think the Redskins got, did the best they could. I think it's what they did. They did the best they could. I mean, it's funny because he winds up with the 49ers, you know, where conceivably they could have gotten a first round draft pick a year ago if they had been willing to, if Bruce had been willing to do business, or Dan, either of them had been willing to do business with Kyle Shanahan.

Kyle Shanahan had to be laughing when they finally closed that deal, that they wound up doing business with Kyle anyway, and he got what he wanted in Treggone. But I think the current regime just did the best of a cleanup situation. I think they had to move on. He had to go. I think they made the best feel they could. Yeah, I mean, again, I mean, I said this yesterday, and I'll say it to you since you didn't listen to it, I'm sure.

And that is, if you're in the camp of it was time to move on, and that includes them, like they didn't want to deal with this anymore, it's over. And that's the win that it's over. In terms of an actual deal evaluation of who got the better of the deal for the quality of the player. Well, the 49ers won the deal. Of course. They got a seven-time pro-bowler who fills a need for a player that was retiring. And, you know, as of yesterday, and this is in part because I believe the Laramie Tunsel deal changed a lot on Friday and may have changed Trent's perspective on, you know, trying to hit the mother load next offseason rather than this offseason. But, you know, according to Kyle, he's not in a hurry to sign a new deal.

And, you know, the 49ers aren't necessarily in a hurry to give him a contract extension. So that would play into his agent's claim a few weeks ago that this has never been about money. And they don't even want a new contract. Well, you know, the discussion with the Vikings late last week was that they were talking contract and contract extension. And then all of a sudden, San Francisco was in the market. and Laramie Tunsell single-handedly without an agent negotiated the largest deal for an offensive lineman in NFL history with the largest guarantee dollars in NFL history. So Trent probably had all of those things sort of come together and now he's thinking,

man, if I play really well for a team that might win the Super Bowl, I could hit the mother load next offseason, you know, after this year. We'll see. But it's a good team. He's in a good place. If he's healthy and stays healthy, he's in a good place to, at the end of the season, cash in on it. Yeah, no doubt. Because of the team he's with. Yeah, and it's funny that you mentioned the whole, you know, Kirk to 49ers. I mean, if Bruce were still here, they would have never dealt with the 49ers, and he might still be on the roster.

Yeah. Oh, he would be. Yeah. They'd still be in the punishment phase. faith of Trent Williams. It's a hell of a legacy that Bruce leaves with two of their better players over the last, you know, five, six years. Kirk Cousins and Trent Williams brought back two third round picks and a fifth rounder.

I mean, it's really, you know, that's the kind of thing. You can't have continue in the future. I mean, I know you think it'll continue and you're not sold. I'm hopeful that those days, even though they've lasted for nearly 20 years or the better part of 20 years. I'm hopeful that that self-inflicted, you know, damage to their, to themselves will stop once and for all, you know, that's why, you know, doing things like this and doing them at a spite, these are the kinds of things that have led to, you know, Sunday afternoons with 50,000 empty seats, 60,000 empty seats. It's got to change. It's got to change. Hopefully it will.

That's what I believe I call the aura of self-destruction. That is the aura of self-destruction. No doubt about that. And now we've got a new force to do battle with it. The force of Ron Rivera is doing battle with the aura of self-destruction. And based on the draft, they seem to have gotten off to a good start. Yeah, I don't know if that's true or not. I mean, they drafted Chase Young after that, who the hell knows.

but I am a believer in the same way that I was sort of a believer in Shanahan when he got here was not a believer in Jay Gruden, as you know, but a believer that, you know, maybe things will change. One last thing on Trent before we get to the draft, because I did a call segment on this this morning. And basically, you know, Trent Williams made this statement after the trade that he still loves the Redskins fans and the players and, you know, Dan Snyder and Diana Rusini a week and a half ago had that, you know, quote from Trent that he still hopes one day, even though he wants to leave Washington, that he can come back and be inducted into the Redskins ring of fame. So I threw that out on the phone lines today, and I would say overwhelmingly, people are like, no. He may be ring of fame worthy based on performance.

but I think it's a reflection, Tommy, of how sort of the feeling about this thing has changed over the last, you know, three months, six months from where it was a year ago. I think a year ago people had the default of Redskins are fucking it up again. They're bad people. They've treated Trent poorly. They nearly killed Trent. But I think now with this trade being completed, and, you know, if you go back to the independent investigation that the team desperately wanted that, Trent did not want because he said it was going to, you know, force him to relive the trauma of what he went through. And then you combine that with some of the agent stuff over the last couple of weeks. I think, you know, the feeling on Trent Williams from the fan base or a lot of it really turned. I don't think that matters. I don't think it matters at all. I think he's in

the ring of fame at some point after he retired. Oh, man, I'm surprised you missed on this. You missed. Why? Because the one person that will make that decision is the owner. You're right that it doesn't matter what fans think, but it does matter what the owner thinks. And what's not been lost on me during this entire saga is not one word from the owner about Trent Williams, not one note from the team from management the other day after the trade. all of the expressions of this wonderful love he has for the owner have been one-sided. They come from Trent.

Most people understand that Bruce Allen had a major problem with Trent Williams and the way this was described, initially through other people, not directly and eventually through Trent, and that there was a lot of anger in the organization. I believe that that anger extended beyond Bruce Allen. I think a lot of people, including the owner, were really disappointed and angry at what happened here. And the owner will decide, just like he had to with a guy like LeVar Arrington, although Arrington doesn't and didn't have the credentials. I will grant you that to be in the Redskins Ring of Fame.

But Trent Williams has overwhelming credentials to be in the Redskins Ring of Fame. But unless the owner comes around and lets bygones be bygones down the road when Trent retires, I don't know that he'll ever get in. I couldn't care less, to be honest with you. I could care less either, but I think he's going to wind up in the pin. I think circumstances will change over the course of 10 years maybe, and I think Trent will wind up in the ring of fame. You do, though, concede or agree with the point that I've made

that over the last year, not one word, nothing from the year. owner about Trent Williams, nothing after the trade from anybody in the organization. The owner is a child. And just like a child, they bounce around with their feelings from one thing to another. And as time goes out, look it, people who didn't have great childhood when they get older, some of them wind up still having these selective fond memories of growing up with their parents. This is a child we're talking about here. Okay.

And like a child, he'll change his mind at some point. Like a child, he didn't get his way in this thing, and he may not forget it until he grows up. Now, CJ pointed out to me this morning, he pretty much, you know, eliminated Rigo from the organization there after the Dark Heart comment, and eventually he allowed Rigo back into the fold. I don't know that Trent Williams will be accorded the same type of future response. I think there will be a problem. But you're probably right. I mean, first of all, we're five, six, seven years away minimum from that discussion.

I really couldn't care less about those things. I think it's an absolute disgrace that somebody like London Flector, as he was referred to on that day, that London Flector's in there and Don Warren isn't. I think that's absolutely ridiculous. But if Trent Williams is in or if he isn't in, I just couldn't really give two shits about it. I just think it's interesting because I think down the road, it will, you know, it'll come up.

And he expressed a desire to eventually come back and be remembered as a great Redskin. And I don't know that the fans are going to forget this in the short term. They may in the long term. But what if he ends up winning a Super Bowl or two with the 49? Niners. Then they'll want to attack themselves to that gravy train. Yeah.

That's what they'll want to do. They'll want to say, look, we drafted that guy. And now he's winning Super Bowl. Look how smart we were. You know, back to the point of they've got to get things like, you know, dealing with Kirk and Trent and the trade value, et cetera, right. You know, in listening to a lot of the calls that came in this morning on the show, By the way, just a quick aside, Ron Rivera tomorrow morning will be on with me at 8 a.m.

So tune in at 8 a.m. Team 980, Team 980.com, Team 980 app. And I'll have Ron Rivera on the show. And we'll talk about it on the podcast tomorrow too as well. But listening to the calls come in, I'm hopeful that Ron Rivera will be on the show, Tommy. They don't always come through with these things. I probably have promoted it a bit too much because you and I promoted many. a potential guest that never posted. But anyway, I was listening to the callers,

and the significant majority we're saying to hell with Trent. And it just, it sort of made me think of this. And that is, you know, at some point, and I'm hopeful that things have changed and that it's a new day with Ron Rivera. But when you have people like Trent Williams and Kirk Cousins in your organization, and there have been others over the years too, but higher quality people, smart guys, performers, people who are accomplishing in this organization, and they want out, at some point you got to look in the mirror and you got to fix the reason why people like that want out. You know, you can't say, well, fuck them, you know, to hell with them. You know, if they don't want to be a part of this great thing, you know, that's their problem.

We'll get rid of them. You know, no, no, no, no. At some point, and I think Ron Rivera is doing this because he's talked a lot about changing the culture. He's, you know, and by the way, when you talk as much as he has about changing the culture, then that's an admission that the culture isn't very good. So, or not good enough. But eventually, you know, at some point, and maybe the owner did this recently, you know, at some point you look yourself in the mirror and say, why do quality people want to leave here? There must be something about what we're doing and the way we're doing it.

And I hope that that is true. And I'm not saying that Trent Williams is in the clear in terms of culpability, because I think he is culpable for a lot of what went on here over the last nine months to a year. I don't think that the whole story was, you know, that Trent Williams had been telling the whole story all along. I think this was a lot about money. I think this was a lot about the Redskins not giving them a new contract. I think it was also partially about a major life scare, too, no doubt. But anyway, ultimately, this is a reflection of how screwed up the fan bases. I mean, they hate her cousin.

They hate, now they hate Trent Williams, two of the best players that they've had on their team in the past 10 years. So which means like if you're dividing, you know, sides on this, they're on the side of Bruce, the fans are on the side of Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder. Not of the player. That's right. That's my point. That's my point. And if that's the case, it's the fans that need to look at themselves in the mirror. say, if this the side I really want to be on?

Do I really want to take this guy, these guys side, these weasels who have destroyed my franchise? Do I want to stand with them? That's my point. You know, they should look in the mirror. That's my point, Tommy, is that, you know, and it just occurred to me as one call was coming in after another, basically saying, go to hell, Trent. You know, no way do we want you in the ring. You didn't want to be here? That's your problem.

And I think, you know, to be fair, a lot of them are saying you didn't want to be a part of the new revolution with Ron Rivera. Well, then that's your problem. But again, you know, going back, you know, over the years, when good people want to leave, you've got to ask yourself why. Rather than just immediately discarding them and dismissing them as not loyal or not wanting to be a part of something, you've got to ask yourself, well, why wouldn't they want to be a part of something? you've got to ask yourself, well, why wouldn't they want to be a part of what we're doing? Because the bottom line is, and it has been the truth over the last 20 years or the majority of those 20 years, the reason good people didn't want to be a part of this thing is because it was a cluster, you know what, and it was run by, you know, people who had no idea what they were doing and weren't good people for a lot of the time.

You know, they wanted to work for stable places, not unstable places. And this place was unstable. I hope it's on the verge of turning around with Ron Rivera. I do. And look, getting rid of Trent Williams because he didn't want to be here is probably the right answer when it comes to the culture. You know, I still think there's a chance with somebody like him that he would have been reasonable had you approached it differently. But, you know, I also thought about Trent Williams being upset about Jaron Christian being drafted a few years ago in the third round. and being upset that Ron didn't reach out to him right away,

even though I think I would have reached out to Trent right away, you know, I think sort of sandbox stuff, you know, a little bit too sensitive. But anyway. Well, they look at these guys, look it, we're talking about, we're going to talk about a documentary where some people consider the greatest basketball player of all time used to make up stuff to be sensitive about. This is what particularly the great athletes do. I wrote one time, it's understandable why Trent Williams was upset about Geron Christian.

On the surface, it doesn't make sense. But Tom Brady went nuts when they drafted Jimmy Garoppolo. They had to trade him because Tom Brady was so. This is a guy who at that point had won four Super Bowl. Right. They all feel. I mean, we've heard Seizman tell us about how he wouldn't let the backup quarterback get wrecks on the field because, you know, he was worried.

These guys worry about their jobs. It's the nature of the business and even the great ones worry about being replaced. Right. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, I think that's mostly true. All right, enough about Trent Williams. Your thoughts on the draft?

Well, it was a wonderful draft, wasn't it? Didn't they get a bunch of good players, right? Didn't they? I mean, I said this yesterday. I think they got a really good one in Chase Young. After that, I have no idea. I don't grade drafts anymore. I haven't been doing that in a while.

I realized that it was really... It's really ridiculous exercise. Well, it's the conversation that we have, and I've said this for, I don't know, three or four. years running and talked about it with you in the past. It's the conversation we have every year that we know the least about. We watch games, we watch players, we watch seasons, we watch things unfold right in front of us, and we get in the next day and the several days that follow and we debate what we just saw. Most people haven't seen Antonio Gibson or Sadiq Charles or Keith

Ishmael play one snap of football. And then to project it based on seeing nothing, to what that guy will be as a pro. It was ridiculous. Now, if you want to look at where these guys were projected and where they got picked and evaluate, hey, maybe the Redskins got some really good value on a player that a lot of the so-called experts thought would go earlier. You know, you can do it that way, but the experts are wrong 65% of the time. But anyway. Yes. Yes, it's such a crapshoot. But you can, again, you can like what I do, you can make a decision based on the positions that they drafted. And it seems like they drafted a couple of weapons,

offensive weapons that will help your young quarterback. They drafted a couple of offensive linemen where they need death. They may have drafted their starting left tackle. How do you pronounce his name? Sadiq. Saddique. Sadiq. Sadiq.

So, I mean, for the most part, At the end of the draft, they went back to defense. But, I mean, you can make a judgment saying, well, you know, they need speed, they need offensive weapons, and they picked up a couple of those. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of time, you know, breaking down the things that I could break down, and that was just having thoughts on really the first four players that were taken by the Redskins. But I, you know, we'll know in three years.

We'll know in three years whether or not this was a good draft. Here's something that's interesting that I don't think I mentioned yesterday. I know I didn't get into detail on this yesterday. I don't know why this is the way it is, but the Redskins signed four players after the draft, four college players, undrafted college players, four of them. In the division, Dallas signed 13. Philadelphia signed 13, the Giants signed 13 of those players.

The Redskins signed the least amount in the entire league, and it's not even close. The next fewest that were signed as undrafted college free agents after the draft, Detroit signed. Detroit signed seven. So I was curious about that because I was like, boy, that's not a lot. Usually, you know, you get the list the day after Tommy, and it's the Redskins have added through, you know, undrafted college free agents, and there's like a list of eight, nine players. Well, some teams have added 17, 18, 19 players. In the division, again, the other teams 13, 13, and 13, and the Redskins added four, just four.

So Detroit was second with the fewest with seven. So I went back and I looked at last year. Well, last year, Carolina, where Ron Rivera coached, had the fewest number of college. undrafted players signed with four as well. Next closest was seven, I think, or six maybe, last year. The Redskins actually didn't sign a lot last year without Ron Rivera here. They signed, I think it was eight, and that was like the second or third fewest in the league. I don't know the answer as to why that Carolina last year and the Redskins this year signed the fewest number of players. Remember, Stephen Simmel.

James Jr. was one of those players last year that the Redskins signed as an undrafted college-free agent. It turned out to be a really good player. He's going to be a starter for a second straight year this year more likely than not. And a lot of players add contributors after the draft. It's a very competitive, you know, few hours trying to sign the players that you think probably could have been drafted, but you didn't have a chance to draft and you want to bring in and they fill out positions of need sometimes, and the Redskins only picked four of them, and Caroline only picked four of them last year.

I have a theory as to why, but I don't really have an answer. Do you have an answer? No, I have no answer. Look, I pointed out that there are more undrafted players in the Pro Football Hall fame than there are number one draft pick. Right. Now, there's obviously some kind of circumstantial reasons for that,

but it illustrates the value that you can find sometimes if you have a great personnel department with undrafted free agents. And a lot of these guys who were signed 25 years ago would have been drafted in the eighth round, the ninth round, or the tenth round. You know, the draft used to be 12 rounds and years before, I think it was 18 rounds. So now that it's down to seven rounds, a lot of these guys would have been drafted. I can't make up a theory other than Rivera doesn't like a lot of faces to confuse them. Yeah, well, I think that, you know, there could be something to ultimately, look,

I'm not just bringing in players to have bodies, it's difficult to manage all of that. And maybe he just prefers a smaller group. Remember this too, that when you go out to sign these players, the players have to want to play for you. You're recruiting them. And by the way, you're paying them too in some cases. In some cases, these guys that get undrafted are getting guaranteed money equivalent to what a seventh rounder or a sixth rounder is if there's competition for the player. They got money to burn. No, they do.

They have plenty of cap space. I know. But Baltimore, Baltimore signed 22 of these players over the weekend. What do they know? They don't know anything. And the Redskins signed four. Four. I just thought that it stood out.

Like Detroit signed seven. That was the second fewest. But it just stood out. As you're scrolling down the list and you're saying, oh, my God, each team's got 12, 13, 14, 15. Baltimore's got 22 and other teams got 19. and other teams got 20, and the Redskins have four. I'll ask him tomorrow. I'm going to ask him because I'm curious about it.

But anyway, that was just an observation. What did you think of the last dance? I'm not done with the draft yet. Oh, okay. I thought you were done with the draft. Did you see or hear Chase Young talking to reporters yesterday? I didn't. I had them on the show Saturday.

I had them on. Okay. What do you think of this young man? I like him. He's impressive. Yes, he is impressive. I like him as well. He handled himself very well, said all the right things, you know, gave the proper amount of respect for how much he has to learn, along with the confidence in his own abilities. And he's very impressive, and seems like a very nice young man. and what's my second reaction is,

God, I feel so sorry for him because he doesn't know what's coming. He just doesn't know, you know. I mean, he seems so nice and so undeserving of what's probably going to happen to him. And that was my second reaction. And that'll be my lasting reaction as I watch him perform and talk to reporters

and say, wow, you're a terrific young kid, you know, you really deserve better. What if I told you that he, a couple of months ago, filed for a trademark of a phrase, terrorize the moment, something that, you know, he hopes to market, you know, sort of a personal brand, personal slogan. and they want to use the phrase on everything from hats to hoodies to jackets to pants and more. Well, first of all, I thought you had already trademarked that phrase. Yeah. That was my first reaction, so I'm surprised that you didn't nail that down because that's what people say about you.

Right. You know? What's your reaction to this? Well, the reaction is until, like, if he does something on the field, if he's rookie at a year, has a great first season, is a tremendous player, and then he starts to capitalize on that trademark with merchandise, then I'm fine with it. If he, before the opening of training camp,

it's selling, you know, hats and T-shirts and jerseys, then I don't understand it. Even if it's what they do today, I don't understand it. You know, I mean, So that would be my position on it. You know, if he has a terrific first year and capitalizes on that trademark and becomes a star, then more power to him. But do something first.

Yeah, you know, I think that's actually a really good answer. I didn't, my reaction, and I took calls on this and could have taken calls on this. and could have taken calls on this for seven hours because the phone lines just kept being packed with people wanting to weigh in. And basically my question was really simple. I'm like, I don't need you to turn this into something that it's not. This isn't, you know, attacking Chase Young.

I want to know what you thought when you read this or when you heard me read it to you that a player drafted number two overall filed an application with the U.S. trademark trademark office to, you know, lock down the phrase, terrorize the moment prior to him ever taking one snap on an NFL field. We know what RG3 did. RG3 was in to a personal branding crusade before he had ever played his first game. Trademarking, know your why, and, you know, no pressure, no diamonds, all of that stuff. And he had a great rookie year. And then it got even

worse, you know, all in for week one. etc. And I know that this is done a lot more now. And I've sort of become numb to it. So I'm not, you know, I'm not going to sit here and get really overly distraught about it because I want Chase Young to be a good player and I think he's going to be a good player. And I enjoyed talking to him on Saturday. Had him on the show for 20 minutes on Saturday. And I found him to be very impressive and engaging. With that said, I'd be lying to you if I said that when I read this, when somebody sent this to me last night, I didn't roll my eyes and say, Jesus Christ, do me a favor. Go out and get 15 sacks and lead your team to a 12 and 4 record and a playoff winner two,

and then let's worry about how you're going to be referred to or what sort of slogan's going to be attached to you that you can market. And by the way, I understand all of the, well, you know, if he blows up and terrorize the moment becomes a big thing and somebody else marks it first, then he's got to change it or he's got to go, you know, pay for it. And I'm all for entrepreneurial spirit and thinking and doing more than one thing at the same time. And by the way, I want to make sure I'm clear. This is not a conversation about endorsements.

Totally different. They're apples and oranges. Okay, players that come out of college and get, you know, and get deals and get endorsements and commercials, I'm all for that. They should try to get every dollar they can. You know, they built some sort of brand in college and there's a desire to have them endorse a product. Go for it. Football lives are incredibly short.

You know, and careers are very short. They should. And when RG3 came out, I did not have a problem with the endorsement stuff. But I did have a problem with the trademarking and the personal branding, you know. And I just would prefer athletes that play for my team. just be more about singularly focused on winning and doing what they can to help the team win. And I know that they can do both things at once. Personally, I would advise him if this is important to put this application in someone else's name,

you know, a family member's name, you know, with a contract that he's able to acquire it five years down the road for a dollar or whatever. something like that, where it's not in his name, which it is. But again, it's, I just would, not every player does this, not every first rounder does it. I had John Orand on the show today, and I asked him, what do you think, what percentage? You said it's a very small percentage of rookie players that do this, that start marking things and trademarking for purposes of personal branding or eventually product sold. but it seems to be more of a thing these days, you know, but whatever. I think your answer is a good one, and that is if he doesn't start selling product

with Terrorize the Moment before he's taken a first snap, that it will be less offensive. Yeah, you know, it's funny. When I think it's, I mean, you don't want terrorize the moment for Redskins fans to be the moment that they drafted him. you want it to be the moment where he gets his 10th or 11 stack of the year on the field. Yeah. That's what you want. Definitely. You know, I found this earlier.

Midway through the 2012 season, okay, so it would have included what was applied for before this season and during this season. here were the trademark applications that Robert Griffin III had applied for. Are you ready? This is, by the way, by the middle of the 20, his rookie year. RG3, RG with the three Roman numerals, Robert Griffin the third, unbelievably believable, go catch your dream, light you up, work hard, stay humble, no pressure, no diamonds, go catch you. one of my favorite. I know it is. No pressure, no diamonds. One of my favorite. Go catch your dream, work hard, stay humble. Oh, I already said that one. Dream big, live bigger. And then eventually he would

add know your why and a few of the others that we, you know, had fun at his expense over. You know, all of those, all of those trademarks, very few of them given the way his career went, South were able to be, you know, monetized in a meaningful way. If he had become a star and he was, you know, in front of a microphone every week and he was putting T-shirts with all this stuff, well, you know, he could have, he could have really turned this into something. But there's no doubt in my mind. And I'm not comparing Chase Young at all to Griffin. I don't think that there are a lot of similarities. But there's no doubt in my mind that Griffin's personal branding crusade really important.

impacted his career in a negative way. There were other things at work, definitely, like lack of ability to be coached, but it just was much more or it was almost equally as important to him as success on the field was. Well, the whole all in for week one was marketing driven. Yeah. It wasn't football driven. It wasn't health driven. It was marketing driven.

I'll never forget at training camp in 2013, early in training camp, where he basically warned the coaches. I better be on that field for week one. Yeah. Yeah. That was all about the, you know, the Adidas marketing thing. Yeah, there were a couple of them that he had two that he put out there when Gruden came in, remember, and I can't remember all of those, but it was. Oh, it's something to do. It was going to do it hour.

way now. Yeah, say something about our way. Time to do it our way. Our team, our way, yeah. We're in charge now. Yeah. We're in charge now. That was his motto.

That was his theme. Yeah, it was really insufferable to watch that. And I don't feel, I mean, I'm numb to it more now than I was before because he's not the only one. And obviously, a lot of accomplished players have done shit like this, you know, over the years. Look, we were both critical. You maybe not as much, I can't remember necessarily, but I was flabbergasted.

I love that word, that Kirk Cousins had written a book before he'd take it his first snap. Like, that was outrageous. Come on. Let's accomplish something first. Before we start writing books and before we start creating our own personal, you know, slogans. You know, Colt McCoy had written one before you ever took a snap to it. I know. I know.

No. You know, Colt McCoy was a... I think it's a religious thing. Colt McCoy was a much bigger star in college, though. Yes, he was. But I think it's kind of more of a religious spiritual thing. I mean, if you read Kirk's book, and I read it a bunch of times... No, you didn't.

Yes, I did. You really did? I used the quotes a bunch of times when the whole fight with the Redskins was going on. I went and looked for relevant quotes in his book. And there was a lot in his book that would tell you the way Kirk was thinking about the Redskins moving forward without him saying anything. I mean, from the start, he basically says it was my worst nightmare to get drafted by the Redskins. Yeah. When he got drafted, I mean, all that's in the book.

You know, so, yeah, I mean, but look, I think Chase Young, if he's as smart as we think he is, has to have seen. what has happened here before and say, I need to take my foot off the gas until I've done something here. Yeah. Yep. I mean... I mean, no, no, no, no, no intelligent person could think otherwise. Yeah, I mean, look, you know, part of this too, you know, I think you would recognize this and I, and I definitely recognize this, is that a lot of this very often is, not necessarily the desire of the player. It's the desire of the people around them. It's the desire of the people who are influencing a 20, 21-year-old

and trying to tell them this is what you have to do. You're in position now to take it. And really, you know, most coaches and most people who have been through his experience after many, many years would probably advise him the opposite. And it would be, look, if you go out and you perform, and you help your team win, the number of opportunities that you're going to have are going to be exponentially higher than the ones that you're trying to create right now. That should be your focus.

That should be your brand. You know, 17 sacks a year on a 12-win team. Now we can start talking about selling T-shirts. Now we can start talking about coming up with a slogan. By the way, what happened to the days where someone else came up with your slogan? Not you. You know, like let other people come up with the nicknames and the slogans. You know, and again, I don't even know that it's him.

It could be other people. But if you don't believe that there's a tinge of self-absorption and narcissism in creating your own personal slogan, I don't, you know, you're not living on the same planet that I am. Again, is it the worst thing I've ever heard of? No. I think your point is the best one, and I didn't have it this morning. I wish you had been on this show. And that is ultimately, if he takes it to the next level before he's actually played in one NFL game,

which is selling product with this slogan and really trying to build up this terrorize the moment, slogan before he ever takes a snap, I'm going to have a problem with that. Definitely. Yeah. But like you said, you know, a lot of these things sometimes come from people. around him. No doubt. People pressuring him.

Remember, it was Pauley who sold the back of Rocky Road in Rockies. Right. So sometimes these things are beyond yours and he sold it to a meat that's this new packing company that he worked for. So sometimes things, you know, are relatives and friends. Yeah, exactly. All right. A couple of other things before we get to the last dance.

I don't know if you saw this story, but this to me is a bit sort of messed up. The Lakers gave back $4.6 million in a small business loan through the emergency plan for the payroll protection plan. They applied for and they got $4.6 million from the government. Did you see this story or not? I saw headlines about it. So here's why I wanted to get into it. So I will tell you that I've been following all of this with the small business administration's paycheck, you know, protection program and the small business loans that, you know, came off of that huge, you know, stimulus, two billion dollar, two trillion dollar stimulus package. And, you know, a lot of small businesses got completely shut out.

The money went out quickly. And it was empty quickly. Now, they're filling it back up. And they've got more money now available. But here are some of the companies that applied for and were granted loans. The Lakers got $4.6 million. Now, the reason that this is a story is that the Lakers realized that the program had been depleted of the funds. And there were a lot of companies that were really hurting that actually didn't get money.

And so they're giving the money back. You know, they qualified for it, they applied for it, but once they found out that funds from the program had been depleted, they repaid the loan so that the financial support would be directed to those most in need. But listen to some of the other companies, ShakeShack, which, by the way, I love ShakeShack, great product. And the one out in Cab and John, we've already been to once since this whole thing. They've got a nice little curbside pickup out there. Shake Shack has a $2 billion market cap. They got $10 million. Auto Nation, all right, they received $77 million in this thing.

Auto Nation is a Fortune 500 company. Shake check's got a $2 billion market cap. I do understand the difference between market cap and profitability. Okay, I understand that there isn't enough revenue coming in right now and they got all these people on the payroll and they're large businesses. And to keep those people employed, they need a lot of money, you know, from the government. but what I think most people thought this was intended for were true small businesses, you know, true businesses that, you know, restaurants, local restaurants that were going

out of business that they could get a loan and a loan that would, you know, carry a 0% interest rate so that they could keep people employed during this time. I just thought, I know, I know from personal experience that the dollar, dried up. There was nothing there for a lot of people that applied for these, a lot of businesses that applied for this money. And I just think it was interesting the way the money was doled out. Anyway.

Okay, well, it seems like the issue really is more with the qualifications of what's a small business. Yeah, they were giving loans out to probably groups they didn't think would actually apply for, you know, said loans. Well, now they've learned. Now they should be able to fix it. Now they should. To fix those qualifications. Now they should.

That they reach the businesses they're supposed to reach. One other thing before we get to the last dance in episodes three and four, which I touched on yesterday, but I said I wanted to save much of the conversation for today when you were on. John Orand, who you know really well, I think you know John, pretty well. Sports Business Journal. I like John Alati's local, and he writes a lot about sports and business. And he basically put out this story yesterday, and I had him on the radio show this morning. He was great. The NFL is planning on putting a schedule out May 7th. So it's a

week from Thursday. So just as, you know, sort of a promotion opportunity, I will have my mock schedule. And I'll probably do it on Tuesday with Tommy. I won't do it solo. I'll, do it with Tommy when Tommy's here on Tuesday, so we'll have it out in advance. I'm honored. I know. I'm honored. So the schedule's supposed to come out May 7th. But the NFL has created a contingency plan and a contingency schedule, which I don't think we're going to get presented to us on May 7th. But Oran points out several things. First of all, the NFL has a plan essentially to move the season start back a week, back. two weeks, you know, or, you know, delay it for a week, two weeks, three weeks, up to a month

of a delay, which would mean that the Super Bowl may not happen until the end of February, and the season could kick off as late as October 15th. And that would be still to play a 16-game season, even though they may eliminate the buy week in that. But very, the NFL is taking obviously this very seriously. they're also taking seriously contingencies on game locations. So as an example, if the state of California isn't going to allow sporting events in September, but every other state or most of other states are going to allow them,

you know, there is going to be consideration to playing these games in neutral site locations in states that will allow it. You know, especially given that there isn't maybe initially a crowd, you know, consideration. If there is limitations on the size of crowd, if there's a limitation overall on just eliminating crowds early on, they could play some of these games in states where, you know, they're able to do it legally. But it's going to be interesting. The schedule comes out next week. I think we're going to see a normal schedule, but the NFL's making significant contingency plans to play their season next year, whether it's delayed or whether

in different locations. So I wanted to get that in. All right. What did you think of the last dance? I thought it was interesting to watch. Again, I mean, it's not, Michael Jordan is not my height of NBA enjoyment. Mine came much earlier than that, but I enjoyed watching Jordan. I enjoyed watching the Bulls.

And I enjoyed the documentary. I thought the whole Dennis Rodman thing was, was, was interesting, the stuff behind Rodman, and I thought the whole Isaiah Thomas, Michael Jordan rivalry and the shaking of the hands was really funny, really interesting and funny. Yeah, Isaiah came out yesterday and said that he's paid a heavy price for what they did when they got swept by the Bulls in 91, and he regrets it a little bit more. Now, I've heard him say that in the past. Lambeer doubled down on it and said, you know, essentially he doesn't regret anything about that.

One of the points I made yesterday, Tommy, is that when Isaiah in the episode where he was describing why they did it, first of all, it was Lambeer who really initiated it. They all followed Lambeer's lead when they walked off the court with eight seconds to go in game four of the Eastern Conference finals in 1991. But the difference, you know, they tried to explain it that the Celtics had done it to them. You know, when the Pistons had finally beaten the Celtics in the 88 Eastern Conference finals, that the Celtics walked off the court before the end of the game as well. I pointed this out yesterday, and I don't know that I've seen it pointed out in sort of national discussion, but it's not exactly the same.

That game six in 1988 was played in Detroit. The Celtics were the visiting team, and the Detroit fans were ready to start. storm the floor. And we've seen that in... Yeah, there was a security concern there. There's no doubt that there was a security concern there, which there was not in 1991 when the Bulls swept the pistons in Detroit. You know, there was no storming of the floor. There was no reason to fear for the opposing team's security in that particular situation. And look, the Celtics were always a target,

wherever they went for opposing fans. So there was probably always in arenas in big games, whether it was Philadelphia or Detroit or L.A., you know, a security issue with the Celtics. So I think it's unfair for those that think that the Pistons were, you know, sort of earned the right to do it on their own because the Celtics had done it to them. It wasn't the same with what the Celtics did back then. I think it was Bush League. Still to this day, I think it was terribly, it makes them look very bad in the moment and over the years.

It makes Lambere look like a, and Isaiah look like total a whole, you know, bad sports. You don't need to hug and hang out and go get them, but you do owe a tip of the cap, you know, at the very least. You owe it for the game to end before you walk off the floor at the very least. What the hell was that noise that you just made? What noise? You just made a noise? Okay. No, I didn't.

It sounded like there was a noise coming from the other end there, and I don't know what it was. I think it's the government who's tapping your phone. I think that's what it is. The Rodman to Vegas thing was my favorite part of the two episodes, that he went to Phil Jackson said he needed a vacation in the middle of the season. And Michael says to Phil, if you let him go, you won't see him again. You won't see him in 48 hours, that's for sure. Now, something I mentioned yesterday became more clear after the fact because the producers

of the show admitted that they misled people. Because I actually, I didn't think it was clear that Michael had gone to Vegas to get Rodman back. reason I said that yesterday was because Michael had said, come on, we got to get to practice. You know, that was when he was fishing Rodman, you know, presumably out of a Vegas hotel room with Carmen Elektra, you know, hiding behind a chair, you know, they led you to believe that it was Vegas. But I, you know, CJ and I got into this conversation on the radio show. I said, I don't know, it wasn't clear to me that he had gone to Vegas because he kept talking about going to practice. Well, they cleared that up yesterday. It wasn't Vegas.

Michael had essentially gone across the street. Rodman had an apartment or some sort of flop house across the street from the United Center in their practice court, and Michael was sent across the street to retrieve Rodman, and Rodman had had a big old bash in his place, and Carmen Electra was there, but they were back in Chicago. So that was cleared up by the producers of the show yesterday. Yeah, I think so. You know, I think it only, I think it enhanced Rodman's reputation.

Oh, yeah. I think, I mean, because, well, here's why. I think all the noise always got in the way of how good a player he was. And I think that, you know, when they talked about how much they needed him and how important he was to them, I think it only reminded people of how, what a great defender he was and rebounder. I think that gets lost with all the who. blah about Rodman.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you're a big basketball fan and I am. So for the casual sports fan, you're probably right. So it's nice for them to understand how great of a player he was. And he's one of the all-time great, relentless effort rebounders of all time. How about that piece of trivia? You know, if you were watching, you know, the in-between segment trivia things, Rodman's got seven games of zero points and 20 rebounds. That's amazing.

But that's what kind of player he was. Number two on that list is Marcus Camby. He's got two such games of zero points in 20 or more rebounds. Rodman was a great player. You know, Rodman was a really good defender. But in my view, Michael and Scotty were just, in Scotty Pippin in particular, and Joe Dumars on the Pistons were every bit as good defensively as Rodman was.

Rodman was a phenomenal rebounder. Don't get me wrong, he was a great defender. But man, that Pistons team, Joe Dumars was a phenomenal defender. Jordan and Pippin were great defenders, you know, on those Chicago Bulls teams. And he was too, but I'll remember him for his relentless rebounding. I mean, the way he would go to the glass, and I love that part of the show where, you know, they basically were putting together him explaining, you know, how he works on figuring out where the ball's going to come off. Like, different players have different rotations on the

shot, different sounds. And just what a student of the game he was, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I think it just enhanced his basketball reputation. a little bit more than it had before. As far as the Isaiah and the not shaking hands thing, it didn't bother me that much. What I came away with was thinking 10, 12, 15 years from now when a little kid is watching this, are they going to turn at their parents and say,

did they really used to shake hands back then? Because I think that's going to disappear. Yeah, I know you do. His second hand is gone. You know what, Tommy? Like we've talked about before, every single day, every couple of days, the whole, you know, story changes on this stuff. Now, you know, this whole herd immunity thing and, you know, young people should be out

and about and should be, you know, not necessarily practicing social distancing to get this, you know, we're obviously finding out that many, many, many more people have been infected by this and been asymptomatic than we ever thought, which means obviously that the death rate on this thing is going to be super, super, super, super low and much lower than anybody ever anticipated. So I don't, I'm done predicting what, what's going to happen. I just don't know how anybody can. You just said predicted.

No, I did. I said, it's going to be super low. No, no, no. Well, it is super low. It's much, it's going to be super low. No, no, no, no. The data right now that's coming out about the number of asymptomatic cases and the number of people who have actually been infected, if you start

to extrapolate that, it's already much lower than they anticipated. And if this trend continues, it's just going to keep going lower and lower. You're following this, right? Yes, but there's a second wave coming. Everyone believes there's the second wave coming in the fall. Well, I'm not talking about the dropping off of the infected. rates. I'm talking about the number of people that were infected, you know, and the number of people that have been asymptomatic, being infected and being asymptomatic. Obviously, the more people infected

and the more people that were asymptomatic, the lower, the death rate's going to go. I mean, it's math. And so that's what we're starting to see. And now you're getting a lot of, you know, I think qualified doctors. What the hell do I know? I'm watching everything and I'm reading everything. And a lot of people starting to believe that, you know, that herd immunity is crucial for this thing. That maybe a lot of the social distancing and lockdowns has actually hurt this to a certain degree. But it didn't.

But just the opposite happened in Sweden, where they embrace the herd mentality. Right. Their death rate is significantly. higher than it should be, and certainly more than their neighbors around them. Right. Who practice social distance. Yeah, no, I get it. It's like in some countries, women seem to be much less impacted by this, and now

there's this discussion of, you know, people, men who are really sick getting injections of estrogen, you know, and yet the numbers for male and female aren't necessarily consistent across all countries and all of the world. It seems to be an issue here where more men are getting seriously ill than women. Again, I guess my point is we don't know. Nobody's known, and I don't have any problem with people thinking that they knew more two months ago in making decisions based on that context. I'm not going back and being critical of those decisions.

I'm just saying to project in the future as to whether or not we're going to shake hands or not, I have no idea. I hope... Oh, it doesn't matter what the science says. It doesn't matter what the science says. It's all... I mean, this will be, this will be embedded in our consciousness for years to come. And there will be many more people that will be convinced more than ever that I may not get coronavirus, but God only knows what I'll get if I touch that guy can. Well, what if it, what if burned into our consciousness is the fact that we killed our economy for a virus that killed 0.0001% of the population? And that, you know, more than 50% of the people were asymptomatic and another 40% barely had any symptoms and then, you know, 9.999% of the people got sick but didn't die.

What if that's burned into our consciousness in six months? Well, it may be. Yeah, that's my point is it could be. But in terms of behavior, in terms of behavior, what we're doing now will never be forgotten. It won't be forgotten, but the reaction to it is what I'm doing. And what I'm saying is if it takes a simple thing just like not shaking a person's hand to give you the confidence that you're protecting yourself, people will do that. That will continue.

Yeah, if the belief is that it will protect yourself, what I'm suggesting is we might think in six months that protecting ourselves is to develop herd immunity and that shaking hands would be a good thing. But you're talking about the coronavirus. I'm talking about everything. I understand that, but the experience and what's going to be burned into your consciousness is going to be the coronavirus. You don't think that's going to impact the way you think.

about the next one? I think when it comes to things like shaking hands or wearing masks, I think some of that behavior is here to stay. You're a germaphobe should be a... I am a bit of a germaphobe. All I'm saying is that I have no idea what's going to be burned into our consciousness and how that's going to impact our actions in the future. And I don't think you do.

And unfortunately, I don't think the real. really smart people know either. I agree with all that. I just feel confident in predicting that handshaking will be something that will be nostalgic. That will not be the norm anymore. Well, then everybody will look at those 91 pistons and say they were ahead of the curve. Yes.

I'm looking forward to, you know, to this thing. It's been very well done. The other thing that I wanted to mention real quickly about. Rodman is I think one of the things that that is clear about the two episodes the other night is just how lucky he was to have been drafted by the Detroit Pistons and had Chuck Daly as a coach and then to have gone to the Bulls and had Phil Jackson as a coach. This was someone who clearly had mental issues, you know, had psychological issues. And obviously he's upbringing had something to do with that, clearly.

But, you know, he could have been drafted by the Redskins equivalent in the NBA, you know, where he got no support, where he didn't get anybody that related to him, where he was in a losing organization without good leadership. You know, I like that one story that Brendan Malone, the assistant for Chuck Daley told, about how he was given, you know, Rodman, a hard time at one point. And Daley calls him over and says, you can't tame him. a Mustang, leave them alone. Yeah. And then you go to Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan, essentially coming to the

conclusion that it was okay for one of their star players to take an in-season vacation to Vegas. I mean, it really takes out-of-the-box smart people who have empathy, who have the ability to connect with somebody's psychological, you know, profile. And he could have gone to a lot of places where that didn't happen. And he could have been in trouble because of it. And by the way, I also thought it was really interesting the relationship with Madonna and how important that was to him. You know, she was the one essentially who said, you can't, you got to be yourself. And from that moment, we started to see this eccentric part of Dennis Rodman's personality come out, because it didn't come out in Detroit.

No. No, no, absolutely did not come out in Detroit. You know, it's funny. You know, Bill Simmons tweeted something yesterday that suggested that what we found out from this documentary that Dennis Rodman wasn't as interesting a person as we thought he was, and I thought that was ludicrous. That's absolutely ludicrous. This guy may have been the most interesting player in the history of the NBA.

Yeah. He dated Madonna. He dated Carmen Elektra. He basically, he was a professional wrestler. He was at a movie with John Van Dam. I mean, this guy... Do you think he right now knows whether or not Kim Jong-on is dead or not? Yeah, that's what I mean. He was his buddy.

I mean, how much more interesting can you get if you're a professional athlete than Dennis Rosman? Well, you know who's not interesting. You know who's not interesting. Simmons isn't interesting. No, he's not. I've never been a huge fan. Oh, look, brilliant entrepreneur, really figured it out. Boy, I mean, you know me with when it comes to basketball analysis. I have a sense of who really knows basketball and who knows more about sort of the

history of the game, and that's what they rely on. He was the latter. Didn't know much about basketball, actually. And God, was he terrible on television on that ABC show. But anyway, no, I'm with you. Rodman has all, I've always been interested in Rodman, always been interested in Rodman. It's, he's really, he's an interesting figure all time. And, you know, hopefully he's well and healthy and, you know, lives a long life because, you know, some of those stories were a guy that was really teetering on the brink. Yes. You know, and that's, and that's why I think, you know, he, he really, you know, God really did him a favor by putting him with

the people that he put him with. I mean, Chuck Daly really was more than just a coach. Phil Jackson was more than just a coach, clearly. I also thought, by the way, the other part we haven't talked about is that it really is amazing to think that Jerry Krause, for all that he was in episodes one and two, and by the way, got some credit from guys like Steve Kerr and others for putting the team around Jordan that ended up being the team and sending Charles Oakley off. He was Jordan's best friend on the team at the time. But that he basically fired Doug Collins

after getting that team to the Eastern Conference finals. He was the preferred coach of the greatest player in the game at that moment, or certainly the guy that was on the verge of becoming the best player in the game in Jordan. And Jordan didn't approve of it. And he went to tell Michael him to say, there's going to be some shit hitting the fan here, and I wanted you to know about it. And Jordan was not a fan of Phil Jackson becoming the head coach.

That would never happen today. LeBron James picks his coach. He basically is significantly involved in the decision on hiring the coach. Not Michael Jordan in 1990. 1990, he didn't have any choice in the matter. He was told what was happening. I thought that was interesting. I love the show.

I think it's well done. So do I. I think it was, too. The one thing that I'm paying attention to, and it was only a sentence, where Phil Jackson is saying how Red Holtzman told him that he should get involved in coaching. You know, I mean, Red Holtzman being the coach of those great New York Knicks teams that Jackson played for, that I grew up at what's really my wheelhouse. I just like to hear that Red Holson's name mentioned

and that he was the guy who told Phil Jackson he should become a coach. Yeah, I mean, I remember Red Holtzman barely, and I know, and I've heard you talk about what a great coach he's been over the years. And some of the video of him playing with the Knicks, and him coaching in Puerto Rico was pretty incredible. Even some of the video of him playing in college was really incredible. By the way, I don't know that we talked about this last week, but I want to finish it up with this,

and I don't think it'll go that far. It may, may not. I had Will Bond on last week, and we were talking about this, and, you know, he's a Chicago guy and a Bulls guy, and I just said to him, I go, look, the 80s are really the decade that I enjoyed. I love the 90s, and I didn't miss a game in the 90s in those Jordan teams. But personally, I said to him, I just don't think those Bulls teams are in the same class with the Lakers of the Celtics of the 80s. And he actually said, he goes, I think I agree with you.

I just don't think they were. I think those Lakers teams and the 86 Celtics and the 85 and the 87 Lakers in particular, that they would absolutely clean the Bulls clock in a finals. Like it would, it would not be a series. What do you think? I think you're right. I mean, but I have the same thoughts about my Knicks team. The 73 Knicks had six Hall of Famers on that team. So I have no doubt that my Knicks teams would do the same. I never thought that the Bulls were a great team.

They had a great core of players. But, you know, I just don't think that they played. They played the – they didn't have – once they beat the pistons, and the pistons were questionable in terms of the way they played, they never had the rivalry that measured them. You know, I think greatness is measured by the finals, not in the finals, but that Nix thing they had. The Pistons thing and the Nix thing was a real thing. But in the finals, in the champions – No, you're right. You're right. round. I just think I measure people and teams, you know, by their competition and who they beat.

It's, you know, it's, and I just don't think the, those 90s, both teams had that kind of, had that kind of villain, had that kind of competition, however you want to call it, not in the final. Yeah, the, the, I think I've done this in the past, and I and I try to really minimize the Bulls teams of the 90s. It's not fair because they were great offensive teams and great defensive teams. I mean, Scottie Pippen is one of the real great defenders. Jordan was a great defender. But I just, I think that's part of it.

You know, they beat the Lakers in 91, but that's not the Lakers of the 80s. No Kareem and Worthy was hampered in that series. And Byron Scott was it was Magic Devots in Perkins, basically. And Worthy was a fact. in the series. But the Bulls were a better team than those Lakers. But if they had played the Lakers in 87, I think it would have been a sweep. And I'm talking about the 90, you know, one bulls or the 93 Bulls. Now, the teams they beat, you know, the Lakers, Blazers, sons, and then, you know, obviously in the next stretch of the Jordan run beating Utah twice and Seattle, that is,

that's just not the competition level that the Lakers, that the Celtics faced in the East first with the Sixers and then in the finals with the Lakers. Or, you know, in the Lakers case, they always cruised in the West, but they had the Sixers or the Celtics in the final. So it just wasn't the same. I think the 83 Sixers, I think the Moses Malone Sixers are much better than those Bulls teams of the 90s.

Much better. That team was phenomenal, that team. I agree. And yet, you know, I was looking through some of the teams that they had. They had some playoff runs where they barely lost. You know, that first championship run, they lost two games. They lost the opener to the Lakers, and they lost one game, I think, to Philly, actually, in a series. In the Eastern Conference semifinals, I mean, you know, but again, I don't know that the competition was the same. But anyway.

All right, what else? That's all I got today, boss. All right. I'll talk to you Thursday, thanks. All right. I'll see you. Thanks, buddy. Well, I mean, we could sit here and say goodbye for 10, 15 minutes, but people, I want people

to know we're done. We're done for the day. I'll be back tomorrow, maybe with Cooley, maybe without him. Tommy will be with me Thursday. Cooley's definitely going to jump on one day this week, and we'll get his recap of the draft. All right, man. I'll talk to you later.

Thanks. Okay. I'll see. I'll see you.