The Kevin Sheehan Show - Trust Level In QB Decision

Episode Date: February 15, 2022

Kevin and Thom today on the Super Bowl, the trust level in Rivera getting it right on the QB, and why Coach K picked Jon Scheyer to be his successor. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's on the show today. Cooley will be on the show tomorrow. We'll do some Super Bowl follow-up.

We'll do some Washington football team talk. Washington Commanders talk, excuse me, coming up in the next segment. I'm going to start the show, though, Tommy, with something that I did not prepare you for. Because I kind of wanted to see if you remembered this. It's a bit of a bone to pick. It's kind of inside baseball stuff, inside sports media, inside sports podcast media.

But I read something before the show started, and it just irked me a little bit. And I will explain why here shortly. But do you remember this guy, Jason Barrett, the guy that did these top 20 lists of radio sports talk shows where they had an early morning, like morning drive, midday's, afternoon. And I don't know when he started this thing, it was 10, 15 years ago, something like that. But he ranked all of the sports talk radio shows once a year, had a top 20. Do you remember this? Yes, I do.

I absolutely remember it. Well, why do you remember it? Well, because when we did the original sports fix, when he would rank midday shows across the country, we were always in the top 10 at the very least, sometimes in the top five. Yes, that's true. I don't remember specifically where we ended up, but for a several year period, when he launched these lists, you and I as a midday show were ranked very highly among midday shows

in the United States of America, and that's when you and I became familiar with it. Tony was ranked, Zabe and Andy were ranked, and then all of a sudden one year, all of the shows on 980 stopped being ranked. And anyway, I'm not going to talk about the radio rankings. I told you what they were. I want to get to this knit that I'm going to pick right now. The bone that I want to pick is that this guy, Jason Barrett, put out a list of the top 20 sports podcasts. in America during 2021. Spoiler alert, this podcast is not on the list. I didn't think it would be on the list, but what I was curious about, because I did know this list was coming out, I was curious as to whether or not a podcast like mine would be considered. I wanted to see what kind of podcasts were ranked in the top 20. And my suspicion was that they would be mostly the big branded, you know, the network podcast.

the ESPNs, the bar stools, et cetera, and that's pretty much what it is in the top 20. And I was curious about that because I was wondering if they would take a podcast like mine. Seriously, my podcast, this podcast, with you on it twice a week and with Cooley occasionally on it, and lots of other guests, but you was the most often recurring. I wondered whether or not, and I don't know if they did or didn't, but I wondered whether or not a podcast like this one, which is a local content, local sports content podcast, would be considered. And the reason that I was curious is because I think it should be considered.

Because I know that this podcast does pretty well. I'm not going to sit here and break my arm patting myself on the back or patting you on the back, but I know this because, look, I mean, I have approached this very much like a business. You know, I was involved in a lot of businesses before I got into broadcasting, and so this podcast has allowed me to go from being an employee for a long period of time after not really being one for much of my professional life, back to also being an entrepreneur of sorts. You know, small business, cell phone, the whole thing. But I've enjoyed that part of it, and I want it to grow, and I want it to become something

that, you know, I'm able to do with you and everybody else for years to come. And the business of it has been good. I mean, in the world that it's in, it's been very good. But, you know, for all of us, it needs to keep growing. And this is the kind of list that if you're on it, maybe it helps. Now, you know, I don't know that it really helps being on the radio list or not anymore. I know that radio salespeople don't use, you know, these kinds of lists to sell with anymore. But the point is, you know, kind of an early stage company, which mine is, you know, a few years into this podcast business, these kinds of things could help. I wasn't expecting to be on it, but I think that what irks me is that I have this sense that it wasn't, and that I wasn't in this podcast,

wasn't seriously considered. And the reason it should be is that I can tell you right now in looking through this list of the shows that made the top 20, you know, and, you know, obviously there's a criteria used, and I would assume that, you know, a lot of the people voting on this assume that these are the shows that have the biggest audiences. Well, a few of them don't have bigger audiences than my show does, and several of them don't have anywhere near the number of positive ratings and reviews and consistent rankings that this show. has. And this is what I hear consistently from my sales partner. And my sales partner, just if, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, the athletic is a partner of mine. Now, their primary business is

subscription based for print, for writers. I'm a customer of the athletic. I think it's totally worth the price. But they also have a bunch of podcasts. And for my podcast, the, they are a partner of mine on the sales end. They sell all of the national ads that you hear on this podcast, and they take a cut of what they sell. But they are very and have been since day one, very bullish about this particular podcast because advertisers, and I've told you this before, which is why the ratings and reviews on Apple in particular helps so much, because they reflect a loyalty, an intense loyalty to this podcast. that advertisers love.

The audience size may not be as big or anywhere near as big as, say, a barstool audience, but for a local content podcast, there isn't any local sports content podcast in America that I know of, or at least this is what I've been told, that generates the combination of audience size

and audience loyalty and rating like this one, which is why we've been able to create a business. around it and hopefully we can keep building on it which you know I really want to do because I love doing radio don't get me wrong but I actually as you know Tommy I prefer doing this I prefer working with somebody bottom line you know I wish you were with me on radio but that didn't work out they thought that you know the expense of having another person on that show wasn't wasn't necessary it's you know that's fine it's the benefit of

the podcast I guess but um you know how much I wanted you to be a part of the radio show too I I just prefer working with somebody. Look, this isn't going to make or break, you know, the podcast by any stretch of the imagination. But I guess I just was, you know, I was curious as to whether or not they would take something like this seriously. And I don't think they did. You know, these, they, I think I've mentioned this to you before, but there's like a billboard charts for podcasts, like rankings, you know, that come out each week. Not rankings, but charts that follow, you know, the hottest podcast. in different categories.

And this show is consistently ranked on Apple in the sports category, in the football category, very highly. I think we were in the top 10 last week or close to the top 10 on Apple. And I think that was a result of 2222, but we're consistently ranked higher than almost any kind of local sports content podcast in the country on these charts. So I don't know. I did send, because I know this guy, and I sent him a text and I just said,

I'm curious, was my show even among those considered? I have not heard back from him yet. And maybe it wasn't. Really? Yeah, because it says here a total of 72 podcasts were presented for voting consideration in the original sports podcast category. So maybe they just had the big branded big network podcasts.

I mean, hell, my radio show... You're being punished. You're being punished for not being some kind of corporate entity. Yes, I think I am. I mean, I'm just looking at... Well, I don't know that for sure. There is a... There are a couple of shows on here I've never heard of before,

and maybe they're great. I don't know, so I'm not going to comment. But I know that there are... Okay. There are a solid five to six shows here that I'm not going to share with anybody. It's proprietary information. And my partner, my selling partner, would not want me sharing the actual numbers. It's a competitive thing for sure.

But I know what my numbers are. And I know how they stack up against people that we're selling against. And some of these shows, I would bet one of my sons that this is. podcast's numbers, the podcast's ratings and reviews, the rankings are just better than. But I don't think that they, in putting this list together, maybe would have considered that to be a possibility or maybe even looked into that as a possibility. This is an important part. Does he know that you do the show with me twice a week?

Why does he not like you? Well, that could know. That could be a deal break. Why? Well, I would think that would put us over to top. Oh, yeah. You're saying, oh, you're saying it would be a positive. I thought you were actually being self-aware there for a moment.

Why would your first move? It would be a negative. I thought you were being self-aware there for just a moment, realizing that the polarization figure, the polarizing figure on this podcast could be problematic. No. I, um, look, one of the real pleasures has been recently, just reading some of the ratings and reviews.

And I know it gets annoying when I ask all the time for you to rate us and review us on Apple and Spotify, but it's really important for us when that happens. We have thousands of ratings and reviews, but we have 10 times the number of ratings and reviews we've gotten in actual listeners to the podcast, which means that a lot of you, most of you, haven't rated and reviewed it. reviewed it. So if you can, it's great. And reading some of those ratings and reviews, the reviews in particular, are really, they're incredibly nice. They're so complimentary. And it's great because I kind of feel like it's, I should be reading them to you probably more often, because you would get a boost out of it. There's some negative ones in here, too.

There are certainly some, there's some suggestions. in some of the reviews. But hey, we're big boys. I mean, trust me, we have seen and read and heard from a lot of you over the years. We're used to it. But anyway, I just, like, I don't know if this list in being on it would have helped. But I know that if they took the actual response, both in terms of volume, and in terms of sort of the,

loyalty to the show, the enjoyment of the show, then I would have been in here in front of probably five shows, six shows, minimum. And I bet you that there are another, there are probably 100 shows out there that could say the same thing. But then again... Okay, well, this is what you got to do. And I used to talk about this for sports talk radio. Yeah.

And I know I was right, and you would never listen to me. Oh, God, social media. We have to create an association. called the D.C. Sports Podcast Association, a nonprofit organization that recognizes sports podcast in the DMV, and then we give each other awards. Okay? We give each other awards.

I don't remember. And we put out a press release. Oh, yeah. This is brilliant. This is brilliant. That the Kevin Shee's show was named the number one podcast in D.C. by the so-and-so, you know, podcast, you know, sports podcast association with some quotes from you and stuff. And then we send it to this guy, Jason Ben, and he says, wow, look at this.

I better start paying attention to you guys. They're winning an awards. This is an opportunity. This is an opportunity for one of you listeners out there to create an association, a nonprofit association out there of D.C. podcast. Of course, you have to rank ours, number one, that goes without saying. Well, we're going to have to. I used to say all the time, we used to start a DC Sports Talk Radio Hall of Fame and induct ourselves.

I remember that idea. I remember that idea. Yes. Yes. Well, you had already kind of done that in your own office. You had already created a shrine to yourself as if you had already been elected to the Hall of Fame. That's pretty funny. You know, the interesting thing is these lists when they come out in years past, like the radio PDs, the program directors would say, this is bullshit.

Nobody uses this to sell with. It's not important. It's all driven by the biggest radio companies. They're the ones that are voting. It's, you know, nobody's sitting there and listening to all of these shows or whatever. And that's true. But I know in kind of what I would call an early stage, big. which is what this is.

It's not a startup anymore, two and a half years later. Right? Whatever it is. Yeah. It's an early stage business. I know that all of these things are helpful. Like we've done, I mean, I'll just tell you, we're approaching now eight figures in terms of downloads since the podcast

began. And so there are people that want me to do a press release about that because they think it's an unbelievable number of downloads since we began this thing. Now that's two and a half years later. But I can tell you, I mean, somebody, obviously you guys are going to do the math and figure it out. But the bottom line is it's done really well. And I'm thrilled about it. And put it this way. If it hadn't been doing well, it would have been long gone a long time ago.

So it's done well enough for us to continue to come in here and plug away. But if it's ever going to be, Tommy, like the thing, which I hope it is one day, it's just got to keep growing. And so little things like this, when you're in an early stage company, you kind of feel it a little bit as a slight, but it's not so much that I think it was intentional at all. I just don't think that they think that a podcast that is mostly local content driven could be in that same category. You know what I mean? And it's incumbent, I think, upon myself to make sure that he and the people that vote on this thing actually understand that a locally driven sports podcast not only can do the numbers and generate the interest, but is.

But, you know What's your PR firm doing about this? I know, I've got to consult with them. They really did a poor job on this one. They did a poor job. Yeah. By the way, I'm noticing for the first time like Tony's show's not in the top 20.

That's a joke. Oh my God. I mean, I know how many people download Tony's podcast and it dwarfs what some of these podcast do. That is absurd. It's ridiculous. Look, it's Tony's is still a sports podcast, isn't it?

Yeah. I will guarantee you, guarantee you that Tony Kornheiser's podcast does so many more downloads and has a much more loyal following than not only, than half the podcast on this list. probably three-fourths of them. There's no chance that it's not. I do know that the Bar Stool podcast do very well, and I know that the Bill Simmons does well. But anyway, yeah, what a joke that Tony's not on this top 20 list.

Okay. That is. What did you think is Super Bowl? That was all right. That's it. What do you think? It was all right. It wasn't a horrible Super Bowl.

But, I mean, compared to what we had been treated to in a division playoff and a conference championship, there was nothing particularly memorable about it except the game was close. That's, you nailed it. But it wasn't close because of any particular, you know, dramatic buildup. You know, it almost caught you by surprise that it was close. And I just was just not much of a game to me. I think you just nailed it. I think you just nailed the reason why.

So I on the show yesterday said, I really thought it was a good Super Bowl. Like I thought it was, you know, on a scale of, you know, one to ten, I thought it was a seven or an eight. I thought it was a really good game. I did. I mean, but I understand, you know, and I got a lot of pushback from people. A lot of people said, man, you were high in that Super Bowl. Well, I didn't say it was the greatest Super Bowl ever played. I just said I thought it was a good Super Bowl game.

It was a seven or an eight. You know, it wasn't the, it wasn't the Eagles. Patriots. It wasn't the Patriots Falcons from, you know, a few years back. That's for sure. But it was a dramatic Super Bowl at the end. I had somebody email me via the website and say, it was just kind of one drive and then a very anticlimactic ending because Cincinnati didn't get the tying field goal. But I think you nailed it. I think if we hadn't seen what we saw for two straight weekends, which was just an incredible street. stretch of football games. The divisional round, we saw, you know, the 1916 Bengals walk off field

goal against the Titans, the 49er Shocker at Lambo, the Rams, you know, Stafford hitting cup deep and having the walk off field goal to finish Brady. And then maybe one of the greatest games ever played in the postseason, the Chiefs Bills. Then championship weekend, we had the Bengals come back in an overtime game and a field goal there to win it. The Rams rallying from 10 down in the fourth quarter to beat the 49ers at the end, 20 to 17. And so we got to the Super Bowl and we had seen six incredible games in a row. If we had seen like Wild Card Weekend, remember how bad those games were? If we'd seen a bunch of blowouts with maybe one or two good games, I think our reaction would have been, that was a hell of a game.

But I think we were comparing it to what we had just witnessed in the previous. three weeks. I think there's something to that. Well, there was nothing particularly memorable about the game. And I wrote in my column in the Washington Times, you can find it on my Twitter account, Tom Laverro

and my Facebook page, and you can find it at washingtontimes.com slash sports, that the NFL needed a memorable Super Bowl for people to be talking about on Monday. Because right away, I mean, they didn't even get a couple of hours.

after the game. And Ian Rappapur has a big story about how Stephen Ross could have the dolphins taken away from them. This is three hours after the game ended. You know, they didn't have, they didn't even get a trip to Disney World. They needed a Super Bowl that at least for a day, people were, you know, talking about, you know, this play, that play. What a great game. I don't think they got that. You don't think to Aaron Donald. It was back to the... No. I don't think so. In the beginning of the game, they were handling Aaron Donald.

Not like he dominated the whole game. Well, they were doubling him on every thing. Cincinnati couldn't do it. Whatever their plan was, they were handling them. You know? I don't know. He broke through on that and was a dominant force on that. But they needed something to stop people for at least one day.

talking about racism and sexual harassment, and they didn't get it. Okay. You know what we're going to do for one day, or at least for another segment, is we're not going to talk about sexual harassment or congressional hearings or Stephen Ross. I want to finish up, though, on this. I think the Aaron Donald thing, I disagree with you. I think the drive by Stafford, which I'll add something to here momentarily, and then the Aaron Donald stopping a third and one and a fourth and one, is a memorable ending to a Super Bowl.

I think it is. I think it was. You know, Tommy, Aaron Donald is, we've talked about it a lot, I understand, over the years, but you and I love going down the path of talking about, you know, how he and certain guys rank historically. Aaron Donald's one of the greatest defensive players of all time. One of the greatest defensive players of all time. Now, I'm not going to put him ahead in my lifetime of watching NFL football. I'm not going to put him ahead of L.T.

I'm probably not going to put him ahead of Reggie White, okay? But Aaron Donald is an unbelievable player, and he had an unbelievable Super Bowl, especially in an incredible second half, which the Rams had an incredible second half defensively. Von Miller was unblockable as well. They sacked this dude six times and a half and hit him another four or five times. And then on third and one and fourth and one, Aaron Donald literally said, uh-uh, game over. And I didn't love the play call.

I didn't like giving the ball to Simaji Pryne on third and one. I didn't like a straight drop back. The play call was terrible. Yeah. call. But Aaron Donald should have been, at the very least, a co-MVP with Cooper Cup of that game. And can you name the only time you had co-MVPs in the Super Bowl? Should. You know, I should be able to. Come on, you can do it. Dallas Cowboys, Dallas Cowboys.

It wasn't the year that Chuck Howie was named. That's a good call. He was the only player to ever win the MVP. award on a losing team. As a loser. Yes, which was Super Bowl 5 against the Colts, 16, 13 Colts, and Chuck Halley, the linebacker for the Cowboys, won the most valuable player award. No. It was a pair of Cowboys, though.

Okay, it was Harvey Martin? Yep. And? And Randy White? Very good. Harvey Martin, Randy White, co-MvPs. against the Broncos, right? Against Denver.

Yep. Yeah. Good job. Okay. Yeah. So were you thinking who's going to get the MVP at the end of the game and thought it was very debatable in your own mind? Yeah, I did.

I thought it was debatable. Between... I'm not outraged that Cooper Cup won it. Between Donald and Donald. If Aaron Donald had won it? Okay. Yeah. Okay.

That was it. Because you didn't consider Stafford for it. No. Me neither. And by the way, he capped off a playoff run where he had three, you know, clutch game-winning drives, you know, at the end of the game with the season on the line. I think it could have been both of them. But I think it was more memorable.

I think I'm going to remember Aaron Donald. But do you think you, I don't think I've been sleeping on this, Although I'm going to tell you right now, he's not LT, he's not LT, okay? He's not Reggie White. Thinking about other, like the greatest defensive players of my lifetime. I mean, I'm thinking more about defensive linemen and linebackers, but if I were to think about D.Bs, obviously, you know, Dionne Sanders is in the conversation. You know, Ronnie Lott's in the conversation. In my minds, I, Ken Houston is in the conversation.

but Aaron Donald is, you know, in an era of only thinking about quarterbacks can be the best players in the game, Aaron Donald's is close to being the best player in the game. I mean, I guess you would say Mahomes and Rogers, you know, and Josh Allen because they'd be more valuable to your team. But I don't know that Aaron Donald isn't a better all-around player. You haven't given this a lot of thought. I would debate. Well, I would not debate Aaron Donald among the greatest. defensive players of all time, because I don't think he is, among the top three or four.

Okay? My debate would be who's the greatest defensive tackles of all time. Reggie White? And is he the greatest defensive tackle of all time? Who's the greatest defensive tackle of all time? Alan Page. That's a good one. That's a good one.

Alan Page was voted MVP in the league when he played defensive tag. He changed the game. No other lineman has ever come close. Arrador may wind up winning, you know, the MVP award. Who knows? But, I mean, to me, it's Alan Page, who weighed all 220 pounds, you know? I mean, on that list, I don't know where Aeron Donald fits in, Joe Green and Bob Lilly from my era. Her own the 70s era.

You know, the defensive tackle is a much more debatable and tough list. I agree. I think it's more fair list. I agree. And Aaron Donald fits in there, but I don't know where. You know? Yeah. I would say, wait a minute.

Randy White is a top. Exactly. Exactly. Randy White's got to be on that list. Yes, he has to be. Absolutely. I mean, that's a great list. The greatest defensive tackles.

You know who the go-to on this is, is Gil Brand. So I want to see if he's created a list of the greatest defensive tackles. Well, he's got Bob. He's got Bob Lilly's. He's going to go Cowboys. I looked at his list. Oh, you did? He got Bob Lilly is number one.

Yeah. He's got Bob Lilly. And I'm not going to argue with that. A lot of people think Bob Lilly is the greatest defensive tackle of all time. And he has me. Joe Green, number two, Merlin Olson is number three. Randy White is number four. Yeah, I just pulled it up.

When did he do this list? Warren, Saff, it's number five. When did he do this list? Because if Aaron Donald's not on it, then it was kind of, because some of these lists that Gil Brand have did are old lists. Yeah, I'm not seeing a date at the top. You know, usually I'm not seeing a date. He's got Warren Sapp pretty high, as many people do.

many people have worn sap high on their list. I don't know. I think that I think people and what I would say is people, older people that think of the players that you just mentioned, don't realize the greatness of Aaron Donald to this generation of hardcore football fans that really love defense. You know, he's now a Super Bowl champion. and he's a three-time, you know, NFL defensive player of the year, about to become four, I would guess, right? Has that award been given out? I don't know if it has it or not. He's a seven-time...

I think T.J. Watt has already won it. That's right. T.J. Watt did win it. And you know what? T.J. Watt deserved it. He deserved it. But he's a three-time defensive player of the year. He's a seven-time first-team all-pro. Seven-time first-team all-pro. He's an eight-time pro bowler. he's on the all-decade team of the 2010s. Yeah, a hell of a player and a hell of an ending to the Super Bowl. So I wanted to mention a couple of other quick things about the Super Bowl that I may not have emphasized yesterday because I was doing the show without somebody.

Chris Collinsworth at the end of the Super Bowl made the comment that that was the greatest drive in Super Bowl history. and I made the comment either on the podcast or the radio show, and somebody said, man, you really have it out for Collinsworth, and I don't. I don't have it out for Collinsworth. I'm not a big fan of that particular pairing anymore, and I used to be. I used to be a massive Al Michaels fan. I think Al Michaels has lost his fastball a little bit.

I still think he's good, but that pairing grates on me, and it's because of Collinsworth, even though I do think some of his analysis is fine. First of all, you know, the reliance on NBC using pro football focus numbers is because Collinsworth owns pro football focus. You know, and the fact that he is so beholden to those numbers as if they're gospel and nothing else matters bothers me because it means he's been sucked into this thing where it's not just a tool, it's what it is. No, it's a tool. And there are lots of other things. But it's his hyperbolic statements, you know, that. he makes every week during the course of the season where he just goes over the top.

I mean, Collinsworth, come on, man. Okay, that was not the greatest drive in Super Bowl history. Tom barely even remembered it two days later. You dope? Come on. I mean, we had Montana getting in the huddle down 1613 to the same team, the Bengals, and telling everybody to look over into the stands because John Candy was sitting there. And then he proceeded to march him down the field.

80 yards and throw a touchdown pass to John Taylor. How about Eli's drive with the touchdown throw to Plaxico Burris to pull off one of the greatest upsets in Super Bowl history? How about like Brady a couple of times? No. It was also a drive. Let's not forget that ended with penalties galore. It was a good drive.

And Matt Stafford is really good. He's what I've always felt he was, which is a really good quarterback. It's not, it's nowhere near the greatest drive. in Super Bowl history. You've got to stop that. He's got to stop that. Apparently they're coming back as a pairing. You agree with me on Collinsworth? I agree with you. I agree with you. Look, I like Collinsworth. And I think Al Michael is the best all-round play-by-play guy we've ever seen. Really? And I still like them. Yeah, all-round, every sport, baseball. He used to do baseball. He used to do Monday night baseball with CoSell. Boxing.

And he has the greatest call in the history of sports. you know, do you believe in miracle? Yep. You know, so I'm a Michael's fan, too. I'm a Michael's at the top. And I like Collinsworth, but I have a soft spot for Collinsworth as a player. You know, I hate what happens when a player goes into their second career,

broadcasting, front office, whatever, and their legacy, what they accomplishes of the players forgotten. Collinsworth was for 80 years one of the top receivers in the league he's a four-time all-pro He was a good player He was a good player He was a good player

He played with two really good quarterbacks too Yeah and he was a smart guy He became a lawyer He got his law degree Right You also have a lot of respect for him But you're 100% right You can just throw out that kind of comment

I mean that that's a big Big Matsza ball out there There's been some, you've got to go back. You have to have the sense of knowing what the other drives were before you can make that statement. Yeah. That's ridiculous. He does that a lot. It's kind of become his thing to say, you know, it's like he's gotten caught.

He's been caught up into the, I'm here, I'm calling this game. This is the greatest ever. It's the most recent and it's the greatest ever. No, no, it's insulting to longtime football. fans with some historical knowledge of the Super Bowl and of the game, you know, to say that. Because it really wasn't. I mean, first of all, they got bailed out on a third and goal at the eight with a bad call, a very ticky-tack call on the hold-on cup.

And so anyway, so that was one thing. The second thing is, and I don't know if you've noticed this, but since you didn't really love the game, maybe you haven't been reading any of the follow-up to the game. I'll tell you what, people are ready to throw Matt Stafford into the Hall of Fame after Sunday. Have you been listening to some of that? I saw people arguing that if you're going to put Eli in the Hall of Fame, you've got to put Matt Stafford in the Hall of Fame. That was my discussion this morning.

It's a very interesting conversation, actually. You know, Matt Stafford is the better all-around statistical quarterback in the regular season. and he's had Matt Stafford, you know, Brendan, my radio producer this morning said because this is a conversation that's right up your alley and mine. Just kind of the Hall of Fame and the players that have been going into the Hall of Fame and all of these sports, look, you're a Hall of Fame voter for baseball.

But I do think like when we talk about Eli Manning and we have talked about him, and I've said before, I think he's going to be in the Hall of Fame. same. But I think it's very debatable as to whether or not he deserves it or not. Because Eli Manning, as Brendan, my radio producer put it this morning, at what point was like he ever a top five quarterback in any year? And by the way, that's arbitrary in terms of the number, okay? That's very arbitrary. Plus, I mean, look, you can't ignore, especially in football championships. You may not think it's fair, but you can't ignore championship.

Well, then why isn't Jim Plunkett in the Hall of Fame? Because Jim Plunkett's regular season numbers do not come close to Eli Manning. That's true. Eli Manning's numbers are respectable, even good. You know, they're not great. But I think even the top 10 in a touchdown, career touchdown passes right now. I think he's in the top 10 in yards, you know, right now. Okay.

So his regular season statistics are much better than Plunkets were. Yes. And he has two Super Bowl rings. I have no problem with Eli Manning going in the Hall of Fame. Okay. But where I was going with this is that I thought it was, I don't know if it's top five or whatever. But at no point during Eli's career, did we. ever talk about Eli in the same way we currently, let's go with the elite quarterbacks of the day,

Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson in recent years, at no point. There may have been a year or two because I remember Eli was always a topic when he was playing. You know, Eli was a topic. By the way, Joe Flacco was always a topic. You know, Kirk Cousins is always a topic. Maybe it's just my show. But anyway, Eli Manning, for most people, was never at any point like a quarterback that you'd utter his name in the same way you'd talk about Aaron Rogers or Patrick Mahomes right now. Never. I know that. Did he win two Super Bowls? Did he play incredibly well in two post seasons?

It was just two because in the other post seasons he actually didn't play well at all. In every other postseason he was in, he lost in the first game. He had two magical runs. the way, played very well with very good defensive teams and, you know, pulled off the upset of the 2007 Patriots, the 17 and 0 2007 Patriots, with an incredible drive and a touchdown pass to Burris, you know, with little time left, 40 seconds or whatever left in the game. And he had a great run. Manning is ninth all time and passing yard. Yeah.

In the NFL. Okay. So he's ahead of John Elway, different era in terms of acquiring passing yards. In terms of touchdowns, he is, okay, I got the wrong thing there. Anyway. And Matt Stafford is 12, by the way. Yeah, I know. So he's going to pass you, I know.

I know that. But these yardage numbers, Tommy, are era-driven to. Okay? So I wouldn't, I think there's got to be a less, a more subjective portion of this. I know that numbers probably have a part of it, but the numbers of this era of quarterback don't compare to the quarterback we were just talking about, Jim Plunkett. And certainly don't, you know, with like a Ken Stabler before he got into the Hall of Fame for crying out loud. You and I watch Stabler. We know how great he was.

He was. Definitely year and year out, one of the top three to five quarterbacks. in the game. What I'm saying is Eli Manning and Matt Stafford, neither one of them has ever been in the conversation of like the top three to five quarterbacks in the NFL. Matt Stafford has made a career, and by the way, I'm a big Matt Stafford fan, as most of you know. He's made a career of being called a guy

that's a really good quarterback, somewhere around 10, you know, 8 to 12, maybe, you know, a spot lower, spot higher, but never an elite quarterback. Eli Manning was never referred to as an elite quarterback. And all I'm saying to you is, you know, you come up with your own criteria to put them in or put them out, is that it's kind of the way I want to start thinking about these things when we talk about Hall of Fame because the numbers are, I mean, it's ridiculous to compare Eli Manning's numbers to, I mean, Jim Kelly, Jim Kelly, who played in an era, Tommy,

of being the team, the passing team in the league is 29th now all time in yards. 29th on the list. Now, I know he had some USFL years before he got to the NFL. What is... Look, there's no formula. Where's Dan Fouts in the old-time list? Where's Fouts? Because that's a better example.

You know, super long career, but in a totally different era. I bet he's not even in the top 20 anymore. In yardage. My ultimate comparison for this. 18th. Fouts is 18th. My ultimate comparison for this is Paul Warfield. He played 13 years in the league.

He caught 427 passes. Right. Okay. But anyone who ever saw Paul Welfield play or played against him or played with him will tell you he's one of the top two or three receivers to ever play pro football. You know?

But there's no formula to equate the different, the rule changes. There's no, there's no, there's no objective number. There's no way to be able to do it. It's always going to be a hodgepodge of what did you see, you know, anecdotal. It's always going to be anecdotal compared to the latest numbers. There's no way around that. until somebody comes up with a specific mathematical formula that equates the passing numbers of today to the passing numbers of Joe Montana, you're never going to be able to really fairly compare them

other than what you've seen and what you hear. Eli Manning didn't make one all-pro team his entire career, first or second team. Well, look, Rigo did only make one pro ball. I know. It's a pot. Fair enough. You know. Yeah. But all I'm saying is that if you go by something, you know, this would be kind of you put whatever number, you know, you want on it. Top three, top five, whatever. But you need to understand that if Eli Manning or Matt Stafford end up in the Hall of Fame, and by the way, Matt Stafford's career is not over. And let me just be clear on this. Matt Stafford is not a Hall of Famer in my mind's eye now. It doesn't mean. that this time next year, if they make another run and they win another Super Bowl. Remember, Eli Manning, by the way, not only won two Super Bowls, he was tremendous during the postseason and won two Super Bowl MVPs. Matt Stafford did not win the MVP on Sunday.

His receiver did. But Stafford was huge in their playoff run. I mean, three game-winning drives in three consecutive weeks for three-point victories in the postseason. But all I am saying is that if Eli Manning, goes into the Hall of Fame, or if Matt Stafford were actually to go into the Hall of Fame off of this year, you could say very comfortably, neither one of them at any point during their career was a top five quarterback in the league. And so if you're comfortable putting that person

into the Hall of Fame, understand you're doing it, but they were never among the top five at their position in the game, in any year. And I think Matt Stafford needs more than one championship to get in that conversation. Well, his numbers are a lot better than Manning's numbers, and will be when he's done. They'll crush Eli's. Well, they won't crush Eli's numbers, but they'll be, look, he's had, how, do you have his numbers up? How many 5,000-yard seasons does Matt Stafford have throwing it versus Eli? Okay.

I would, I would bet you, and Brendan looked this up, so, but I'm kind of forgetting what he said. But basically, Matt Stafford's been in the top five of some of the bigger and more important statistical categories or traditional statistical categories more often than Eli. I know. By the way, I like to Eli. He played for teams that were usually behind in the games. So we had the opportunity to acquire that yardage. Yep. Look, you know, one of the things you could look at with Stafford, because I'm looking at him right now, I'm going to pull it up for Eli,

I think it's similar with Eli. Eli really was a clutch quarterback for several years in a row. Stafford has been incredible. Here it is. Okay. Fourth quarter comebacks. Stafford never had one, had one five thousand yards season. Stafford did. That's right, just one, but he was pretty close this year and in one other year. Yeah, very close. Yeah, to three of them. Yeah. Stafford has 34. are fourth quarter comebacks in his career and 42 game winning drives. If you are a fan of pro football reference, and I would urge you if you're not familiar with pro football reference, to actually use it if you're a big football fan. There's just so much good information.

Fourth quarter comeback is comebacks led by a quarterback must be an offensive scoring drive in the fourth quarter with the team trailing by one score, though not necessarily a drive to take the lead. Only games ending in a win or tie are included. You know, it's funny about that fourth quarter comeback. There are lots of quarterbacks that have lots of fourth quarter comebacks where they led their teams to what could have been game winning drives with less than a minute to go, only to have the defense give it up. Stafford's got 34 of those. Game winning drives are offensive scoring drives in the fourth quarter overtime that puts the winning team ahead for the last time. He's got 42 of those. That's a lot. Eli has 27 and 37.

they were both, you know, they've both been clutch quarterbacks. They've been able to deliver with the game on the line. And certainly Eli's two post-season and the fact that he beat Belichick and Brady twice, you know, is a big feather in his cap. Huge. Yeah. Okay. I agree. We've got more stuff right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

Tommy, a couple of other things that I want to do. mention to you real quickly. You know, Sean McVeigh, you know, we knew this before the Super Bowl, but we didn't talk about it. Sean McVeigh became the 11th NFL coach in history to go to a Super Bowl with a different quarterback other than, you know, with more than one quarterback. We know the coaches that have gone with three, and only one has won with three, and that's Gibbs. Shula The champ. I'm sorry? Joe Gibbs, the champ of the mall.

He's the champ of the mall. Three different quarterbacks, three Super Bowl. Three Super Bowl wins. Parcells went to three with three different quarterbacks, but only won two of them. And Shula went to the Super Bowl with four different quarterbacks over two teams, by the way, but only won Super Bowls with Greasy.

and lost with Morrill, Marino, and Woodley. God, remember David Woodley was the starting quarterback against that was the LSU quarterback, by the way, Tommy, the trivia question that I didn't give you the answer to because I was going to use it in the radio trivia contest. On Sunday, Burrow became the second LSU quarterback to ever start a Super Bowl. David Woodley was the other one. And then Matt Stafford became the second Georgia quarterback to start a Super Bowl. Fran Tarkington was the first one. him. But anyway, McVeigh joins the list of 11 coaches to go to the Super Bowl with two different

quarterbacks. He went with Goff and Stafford. That list, by the way, includes Bud Grant, George Seafurt, who did it with Montana and Young, Shula Gibbs, Parcells. Holmgren, by the way, also went with two and won with two, Brett Favre. I'm sorry, just went with two. Did not win with two. Didn't win with Hasselbeck. Vermil, John Fox, Dan Reeves, and Andy Reed. That's the list of the coaches that have gone to the Super Bowl with more than one quarterback. And again, Seafurt, Shula, Gibbs, Parcells, and Holmgren are the,

I'm sorry, Seaford, Shula, Gibbs, and Parcells are the only... No, what am I talking about here? Whatever. Gibbs is the only one to win with three different quarterbacks. Shula and Parcells are the only... other coaches to have gone to the Super Bowl with three different quarterbacks. They just didn't win all three of them. Man, you know what?

In looking at this list, because I saw this on Sunday night, I think Don Shula is the greatest coach of all time. And I always felt that when I was watching football over my lifetime. I just always felt Shula was the best coach. And I want to say that it was Gibbs, obviously. and Gibbs is on the very short list of the greatest coaches. But my God, did Don Shula win everywhere and with everybody? Shula lost three out of four Super Bowls with Hall-fame quarterbacks.

He lost with Marino. He lost a Super Bowl with Greasy. He lost a Super Bowl with Marino. But the one that he lost with the Colts was with Earl Merle. Yeah, but Unitas was on the bench, and he left them there until the fourth quarter. I know, but wasn't it because he was hurt for most of the year? No, yeah, but he could have played. Well, he did, and he didn't play well when he came in.

No, he didn't. Actually, he drove them down the field. It was their only score. Oh, is their only score? That was the Jets Super Bowl, Super Bowl three. Yeah, yeah. So what are you saying about Don Shula? I'm just saying, I mean, I don't think he's the greatest coach. Actually, I think Belichick's the greatest coach. Belichick's the greatest coach. I think that's it.

And then Labardi's number two. Shula, though, went consistently deep into the playoffs and to the playoffs, you know, and went with David Woodley. He got to the Super Bowl with. That's all you need to know is that he got to a Super Bowl with David Woodley. You guys were lucky. You guys were lucky you didn't get my Jets in that Super Bowl. buddy yes you guys were lucky Freeman McNeil Wesley Walker the sack exchange you were lucky you know the

famous you know the story about that aFC championship game in the Orange Bowl that year right well yeah how they watered down the field I mean oh it was rain there was rain they didn't put the tarp on the field right they didn't put the tarp on the field on purpose yeah and it became a quagmire of a mud bowl and the dolphins won I think 14 to nothing I don't think the Jets scored that. It was a terrible game. Yeah. It was a terrible game.

That was one of my face-painting green games, where I literally painted my face green to watch it on TV at home. No, you didn't. You really didn't. Yes, I did. You really did? Oh, yes, I did. You painted your face Jet Green.

Uh-huh. There were a bunch of my friends there. You know, it wasn't just me, but yeah, I did. I painted my face green to watch a game on TV. Oh, that is a shocker. We should really do the segment we've always talked about doing, which is tell me something that, I'm going to tell you something that you don't know about me, because that should have been number one on your list. You painted your face Jet Green before the 82 AFC championship game.

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. How hammered you get? Well, I was home. I didn't really get hammers. I don't remember getting hammered. He should have. Pounded down the beard.

It's embarrassing. Okay. There's a bit of news, Kevin. Uh-oh, what? What's the news? What's the news? Well, a statement from the House Oversight Reform Committee. Oh, God, I thought we were going to not do this.

You know, 11? Oh, well, we got it. You want it to our news? I guess. You know? How are you going to be a top 20 podcast if you don't pay attention to the news? Go ahead. Okay. Yeah.

the committee released this statement 1159 Monday was the deadline for the NFL to turn over the documents related to the Beth Wilkinson investigation to the committee. Here's the statement, quote, the committee has received additional documents from the NFL, which we are currently reviewing. We have been clear that the NFL must stop hiding the results of the Wilkinson investigation and fully comply with the committee's requests or the committee, will have no choice but to take further action. So we don't know what's in those documents yet. So that's what's going on. They did submit some documents last night. It was the league that submitted them?

The league that submitted them. Okay. All right. So we'll see what happens. You know, I wanted to really mention one other kind of Super Bowl note here. So Sean McVey put out there late last week that he might retire. And as you were, you know, looking up news and then I was trying to chase the news that you were about to talk about on Twitter, something popped up on Twitter about Sean McVeigh hasn't made a decision yet.

It would shock me if Sean McVe retires, first of all. But here's a real interesting development. If Sean McVey were to retire, Kevin O'Connell, who is already committed to taking the job with the Minnesota Vikings, but may not have yet signed a contract, would obviously be the successor to Sean McVeigh. I guess Rahim Morris could be. Rahim Morris, by the way, everybody loves, and maybe Rahim Morris would get that job. but I just think it's interesting that we could be, if Sean McVey were to retire, we could have one of those situations where a coach committed but didn't sign a contract and then backs out.

Because the L.A. job's a better job than the Minnesota job. And he's in L.A. And it's his team. And if I were the Vikings just as a recommendation, if they don't, if something were to happen there, then Rahim Morris should be the higher. Rahim Morris, everybody has said all along, needs another chance to be a head coach. He apparently is as beloved as any coach in the league.

And when he got his opportunity, he was super young, you know, with Tampa. But I do think that this could be an interesting thing just to follow. I don't know, maybe by the time you listen to this, you know, it's already Kevin O'Connor. How'd you like to be an energy? coach next season and have Sean McVeigh and Sean McVey and Sean Peyton out there hanging out with no job. How do you like to be an NFL coach with those guys out there just walk in the street? How'd you like to be a quarterback on kind of a, oh wait, here it is. Shefter just tweeted, Vikings are planning to introduce Kevin O'Connell as their next head coach

on Thursday per league sources. Interesting that Schefter had to put that out there because I bet you people were wondering about whether or not Sean McVeigh was going to retire and then O'Connell was going to have to back out. By the way, the Super Bowl ratings are in, at least according to Schefter, 112.3 million people was the average most watch show of any kind in five years.

Wow. That's a lot of people. Not surprising. Not surprising. Yeah, 11. By the way, Tommy, 101.1 million on television. I'm sorry, television audience was 92 million. The stream was 11.2 million. And then there was another, well, if it was 92, that would put it at 103. That would put it nine million short. Where did the other nine million come from? Like a Spanish broadcast? Wouldn't they have just counted that? as the... I don't know. I mean, they may have come up with a formula to count the... I don't know.

Bars. Oh, my fault. My fault. Hold on, my fault. The total audience was 112.3 million people. 11.2 million streamed it. So basically 10% streamed the game. That's, that's, geez.

And that's probably very under... And that's probably underreported, too. Well, yeah, how many people streamed it illegally? Yeah. On Reddit. Yeah. You know what's interesting? The NFL, the Bengals wanted to hold a watch party in their stadium for the Super Bowl,

the Bengals wouldn't let them do it. I mean, the NFL wouldn't let them do it. Ooh. I didn't know that. Because they wanted those eyes on their TV screens. They didn't want them sitting in 50,000 people sitting in a stadium in the 10,000. where the ratings are going to be through the roof. Right.

They wanted them at home watching it on TV. I have a question for you. Do you trust Ron Rivera, Marty Herney, Martin Mayhew, all of the Washington brass to get it right on the quarterback in this offseason? No. Why? Because they haven't done anything.

to indicate in their track record that they would. I mean, Cam Newton was a no-brainer in my mind. Okay? They don't have a particular, any track record that would indicate to me that they would get it right. Okay. I think, so I'll give you my answer to this. I trust in this off-season that Ron Rivera and company,

and let's just say Ron Rivera, because he is in this coach center, system. He is the final decision guy. I trust that they are really going to go after a quarterback in a major aggressive way. I would say that they went after a quarterback last year aggressively. I think a first and a third and then, you know, the Albert Breer story also painted, you know, the picture that they up that offer. But they were never going to win that offer because Brad Holmes and Detroit had, You know, drafted been a part of the group that drafted Jared Gough.

And they wanted to do what, you know, they wanted to do Matt Stafford a solid after all of those years in Detroit and trade him to a place where he wanted to go. So Sean McVey not only had the better offer, but it's also where Stafford wanted to go. And it was just more appealing for Detroit. So Washington, though, was aggressive because if you really compared apples to apples, the reason that it was two firsts, a second, and Jared Gough. the second of the first round picks for Stafford was really partly because they were going to have to take Jared Goff's contract back. So that's why they got the extra first. So really it was ultimately, if Goff weren't a part of the deal, it was a first and second for Stafford. Washington offered a first and a third.

And then according to Albert Breer, up their offer. They were in it. If you believe all the reports, Carolina, Washington, and Detroit, and really Carolina and Washington for a while, were the ones that were in it. So I think they were aggressive last year. I trust that they are going to be aggressive again. By the way, they were aggressive in the trade market. They weren't aggressive in the draft because they took a draft that, by all accounts,

was a much better quarterback draft than this upcoming draft, and they didn't get a quarterback. They could have been aggressive and traded up and drafted Justin Fields or Mack Jones or Tray Lance or whatever, but they didn't do that. But I do trust that they're going to be aggressive. Number two, I do trust that they're a competent evaluating group. I do. I don't think they're the best, just like I don't think it's the best coaching staff, but I think it's competent. And I think that most agents and players will recognize it as being competent. You know, the organization, they won't

recognize as being competent. They'll recognize it, and certainly the agents will, as being highly dysfunctional. But I think Ron Rivera and Mayhew and Herney and Del Rio and, you know, even Scott Turner do a much lesser degree. I think they're well-respected in football circles. I don't think anybody's going to say you can't go there and play for them. So I trust that they're going to be aggressive and I trust that they're competent enough to make the pitch and kind of present themselves as an option for some of these quarterbacks. What I'm not confident in is that they're going to be able to pull it off because I don't think it's going to be totally within their control.

When we start thinking about this, I don't think Aaron Rogers and Russell Wilson. I don't think they're leaving. I don't know what the situation is with Deshawn Watson. I don't think Aaron Rogers or Russell Wilson will get traded. I think if they do too, the AFC will be the first target for Seattle and Green Bay, respectively. And then you're talking about Jimmy G and, you know, Trabisky and maybe Kyler Murray. But, man, there is some smoke off of Kyler Murray.

right now. There is some signals coming from some beware signals. And the first beware sign would be if they actually decided to trade him as far as I'm concerned. Really? You picked him two years ago. Three years ago is the number one pick and you're going to trade him before the end of his rookie contract. Well, that scares me. Remember, there were some bizarre questions about him leading up to the draft. The Dan Patrick Patrick interview. He had some very erratic behavior. Yeah. The Dan Patrick interview, the baseball versus football. Lots of stories about Kyler-Marie, but whatever. To me, the bottom line is, if the Cardinals were willing to move on from him in a trade before the end of his rookie deal, then I would really wonder. And it wouldn't be that I would wonder why the Cardinals are incompetent with

Steve Kime and Cliff Kingsbury, because I wouldn't consider anybody to be like we're getting rid of a really good quarterback before the end of his rookie deal because we just think it's good business. no, there would be something there that they know that most people don't. Maybe some of what's being reported is true. So back to the question. I trust them to go after it in a big way. I trust that they can present themselves well and present an aggressive offer and put themselves in a position to potentially get one of these quarterbacks if they become available.

The draft is a slightly different story. You know, they've got to evaluate it right, and the only quarterbacks that they've evaluated and picked, or Cam Newton and Matt Stafford, number one overall. Martin Mayhew picked Matt Stafford in Detroit, and obviously Ron and Marty picked Cam Newton in Carolina. Let me amend. Let me amend it. I mean, you pretty much said this, and I should have been more specific. I think you're right that they're very capable of making the right decision.

I don't know if they have the ability to make the right decision. And I don't mean their personal ability. I mean their abilities to do their jobs in that building. That's a caveat on every single thing. You know, so do I trust them? I don't trust the process. So I can't trust them. Let me talk you out of that one and talk you into this one.

I disagree with you on that point right now in this moment. Things can change, and by the way, I understand the disclaimer. I understand the Surgeon General's warning, okay? I do. But I think right now, Ron has the final say over football personnel. I believe that. Now, I do think this offseason is a little bit strange compared to last year or the year before because of the new name and the new branding and the fact that they have no fans that are buying tickets and that the owner would love, you know, if he's even thinking about this right now to make a big splash.

But I'm going to disagree with you, and I'm going to say that the football people are going to be able to make football decisions. I think what is at issue here is part of the out-of-their control, like Aaron Rogers not being traded or only being traded to an AFC team or not wanting to come here, or Russell Wilson, same thing. And now you're into the other quarterbacks, is that there are players and agents out of that. there that will say, yeah, Ron's a great guy. Jack and I like Scott a lot. They've got some good personnel. They've got a lot of salary cap space. You know, they've got a good young foundation in different spots. It's a decent roster. You could really elevate it. This could be a place where in this division you could really, you know, contend. However, do you know who owns the team? And do you know what they deal with there on a daily basis? Every single week, there is a good chance. You are going to be

asked about something that has nothing to do with you and nothing to do with what you did on the field because it will have to do with something the owner just did or did in the past. And so I would suggest to you that that would be more of the problem than Dan getting in the middle of it and screwing it up. Now, once you acquire that player, if it's a star player, that's when I would start to be really concerned. Because we've seen what a star effort this owner is and how he just oddly likes to become best buddies with 28-year-olds, you know, who are star football players. And then that ends up, you know, or younger and older. You know, I mean, if Ryan Fitzpatrick had lit it up this year, he'd be the owner's best buddy, just like Alex Smith became the owner's best buddy there

for a brief period of time. So I, um, That part I would wonder about if they ended up landing a Russell Wilson or, you know. By the way, if it were Deshawn Watson, that would be one where the owner would have to stay away from him, wouldn't he? You would think so. It'd be hard for him to do, though. That would be so hard for him to do. He's not capable of that. Right.

What did you think of Julie Donaldson in front of the 22 jersey at the Super Bowl? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's just unbelievable. They're using the jersey of the guy who was just charged with involuntary manslaughter. Yeah, but you know that they were using it because it was the year 2020. So for those that didn't see it, there's a picture on their Twitter account, on their website, whatever, of Julie last week in L.A., posing for pictures in a brand-new new commanders 20 jersey number 22 which is DeShazer Everett's number.

I do not think, by the way, they did this on purpose to troll people about DeShazer Everett and the poor woman that was killed. Of course not. Of course not. But the point is that they don't have anybody. I'd say they could put their Walter Payton man of the year out there, Jonathan Allen, but they were still running away from his Hitler comments. I love John.

I, we're not suggesting that they would do that intentionally, clearly. But the fact that there wasn't somebody there that just said, hey, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, before you, before you do this, I know that your intention is to say, hey, it's 2022. It's a new day. But you do know that that's DeShazer Everett's jersey number. And most fans, when they look at this, they don't think the year. year 22, they're going to think about what player, you know, what, that's DeShazer Everett's jersey. Yeah, not a good idea. And of course, the feedback on Twitter was just, I mean,

typical of anything that they put out and fuck up. Again, not intentionally. But again, they don't have anybody there that can tell them this is a bad idea and this is the reason why. No, they don't. I got one thing to finish up the show with. It's about Coach K. We'll do it right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show is brought to you by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.com or MyBooky.orgie.org. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and they'll double your first deposit, dollar for dollar, all the way up to $1,000. We are a month away from March Madness, guys, and there's nothing more fun than betting March Madness.

They'll have all of the games and all of the prop bets before the tournament starts. But you've got plenty of college basketball between now. then. MyBooky.ag, mybooky.com. Use my promo code Kevin D.C. And again, if there's something already written in the section where there's a promo code, erase it and put Kevin D.C. And they'll give you free money when you sign up. A match dollar for dollar all the way up to a thousand bucks. So I saw this story right before the podcast, before we started to record the podcast. I think it's an interesting story. There's a book coming out, The Rise and Rain of Mike Shashefsky. It's written by Ian O'Connor. Who did Ian write for for years? ESPN and others write for

ESPN. He wrote for ESPN. I think he wrote for the Daily News, New York Daily News. He did Belichick book not long ago. So very good sports writer. So, you know, in the anticipation of this book debuting, you're going to see, right, Tommy? This is part of the strategy. Some, you know, some tidbits coming out about the book and some big stories, big reveals about what's in the book, so you can go read even more. And this was a big one. Officials at Duke wanted to hire former Blue Devil star Tommy Amaker to replace Mike Shoevsky after he retires this year. But the coach wanted current associate head coach John Shire to take the job,

according to this new book written by Ian O'Connor. The book, you know, for those of you that don't know, John Shire was a player for Duke, all right, in the late oughts, and was a good player, and he's been with Kay since. And when he announced that this was going to be his final year, there's a lot of discussion about who the head coach, who was going to get the good job. And Amaker was certainly one of those names, and it went to John Shire. You know, Amaker, Tommy Amherer is a local. You know, he grew up in. Reston, Virginia, went to Duke, was on Coach Kay's first really good teams from 1983 through 87, was on his first Final Four team, you know, with Danny Ferry and that group, Mark Allery, et cetera, Johnny Dawkins, et cetera.

So Amaker and Shire, Amaker was an assistant at Duke for nine years, but left initially for a job at Seton Hall. He was 31. went on to coach at Michigan and then has been the coach at Harvard since 2007. Tommy Amaker's been at Harvard since 2007. Shire's been an assistant coach at Duke since 2013 and was promoted to associate head coach after the 2018 season. In the book, O'Connor writes that Shoshchewski asked Shire about the possibility of following him the day he told his assistant coaches of his decision to retire. Shire said he would love to have the job. Duke administrators, including deputy director of athletics, John Jackson, and three others, ran a search to replace Coach K. During it, O'Connor writes in the book, it became very clear that university president Vincent Price wanted amaker to get the job.

sources told O'Connor that eventually Shoshchevsky called Amaker in what the book describes as a very difficult conversation with his former assistant who had gone from Duke, who had been gone from Duke for 25 years. During it, he told Amaker that if he came back, he'd have to be an assistant for a year bumping another assistant off the bench and that it would create an awkward dynamic with Shire. Mike had to explain to Tommy why he couldn't be the guy. And this is one Duke's source in the book saying he can be Don Corleone when he needs to be. Eventually, Amaker decided not to take the job. Someone close to him, O'Connor Wright, said he was heartbroken not to get the job. Shire was eventually announced as the successor. Shoshchewski and Amaker, by the way, do not comment for this book.

There are other stories that have been revealed about the book. which will be coming out at the end of this month. But, you know, basically the reporting, and there's additional reporting on this from the story, beyond the story I was reading on ESPN.com, which says that basically Shire at 34 versus Amher at 56 years old is someone that Mike can control. Like he's going to continue, you know what he is? He's coached Thompson once he leaves.

all of these calls are going to be his calls until he's gone. Well, if you were Coach K, would you think that's such a bad thing? I'm not saying if it's a bad thing or not. I always found it so interesting how basically anything that happened with Georgetown basketball, even though he had been gone for 20 years or whatever, essentially it had to run through Big John, you know? I mean, literally, Big John got rid of his own son for basically, you know, an adopted one in Patrick. I wonder if he were alive right now what the situation would be with Georgetown at Owen 13. I mean, would he rehire JT3 and tell Patrick it's time to go?

I think Georgetown's finally going to go outside of the family with their next tire. That's my guess. I don't know for sure. But no, I don't hold it against him. didn't, wouldn't have a lot of, you know, say after he left. But, you know, Tommy Amaker has been a head coach for years. John Shire's never been a head coach. So picking John Shire at, you know, is a bit of an indication that Shishovsky can kind of control him a little bit more.

You know, he can call him at halftime and say, you got to go to the zone in the second half. You're getting killed in the man to man. I'll bet most Duke fans are just happy with that system. Maybe. Maybe. He was described by one source. He's the ultimate orchestrator, Mike Shosheske, is he wakes up in the morning trying to figure out ways to stay ahead of you.

Sometimes Coach K has to eat as young, and Tommy Amaker just got eaten. All right. Anything else? I got nothing else for you today. We're done. Cooley will be with me tomorrow.