The Kevin Sheehan Show - Urban Meyer on Redskins' Culture

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

Kevin solo today with a conversation that is both virus and politics free. He opened with thoughts on Urban Meyer's defense of Dwayne Haskins' first year in DC. Meyer was on an NFL Network podcast and ripped into the Skins' organizational culture. Also on the show today, Kevin tells you where ESPN got it wrong on its all-time NBA Player list. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. Just me today. Sorry about yesterday's show. It was long and it was all over the place. And I didn't even get to the topic that I really wanted to get to, which was, you know, all of the Adam Schiff, you know, transcript stuff that the House Intelligence Committee finally had to release. a few days ago. That would have sent Tommy over the edge. I mean, Adam Schiff's been his boy for the last three years. But anyway, we didn't even touch that. And we probably won't touch it tomorrow either. I'll give you fair warning that we'll leave you without any virus talk or political talk in the next shared episode of this podcast between the two of us. It's not going to be a long show today, but I did want to start with these Urban Meyer comments about Dwayne Haskins.

Urban Meyer was on a podcast, the Daniel Jeremiah, Bucky Brooks podcast called Move the Sticks. Now, Jeremiah and Bucke Brooks are both NFL network guys. I actually think they both do an excellent job. You know, Daniel Jeremiah has actually been rumored to have been in the hunt for an NFL general manager, job in the last few years. You know, one of those media guys that people think could be an NFL general manager. Bucky Brooks does a great job, I think, in his analysis of the game. I've actually tried to get him on the podcast and the show recently, and it just never seems to work out for some

reason. But anyway, they do a really good job, and they had Urban Meyer on their podcast yesterday. And Urban Meyer said some things that he had not said to Zabe. He was on with Zabe on our radio station last week, that he didn't really say, I don't think, to J.P. Finley, not in the same way. If you miss this, this was part of the conversation. He got very, he became sort of protective and defensive when it came to Dwayne Haskins' first season in Washington. he felt compelled to really defend his former quarterback. And I'll read through this stuff, but let me just start with, I don't really think Dwayne Haskins' performance last year needs to be defended.

I think he improved. I thought he got better. I think, you know, considering all of the circumstances, when he finally got the opportunity to start, and we've been through this many times before, I was encouraged. And I know not everybody was, so maybe he's defecutive. defending Dwayne Haskins against, you know, the Haskins critics of that first year.

But what he really did is he took some shots at the organization. I'll read through some of these quotes. So in talking about the organization that drafted him, the Redskins, he said, so it's the quarterback's fault? Quote, never mind the fact that their coach got fired, that the place is a mess. There's this going on, there's this going on, there's that going on. a lot of stuff I heard from behind the scenes. Because once again, I have several players there.

Yet it's Dwayne's fault. And by the way, he's got players there, right? Terry McLorn, Alex Smith in the organization. He's close to Alex Smith. But there was more than just that. He said, quote, I hate to be so simplistic on this. But you better surround him with some really good players. The NFL is amazing to me.

They draft a quarterback. They put him on a very. bad team, and there are a lot of culture issues, which I don't want to start throwing stones, but I do know. I talk to my guys. I talk to a lot of these players. So it's the quarterback's fault now that their coach got fired after week five. They were in complete disarray, and it's the quarterback's fault now? I wish college was that easy. For some reason, it's not the quarterback's fault. It's the coach's fault. To me, it's about culture and leadership. You want Dwayne to be a great player surround him with really great players, surround him with a really elite culture.

Urban Meyer went on to say that Washington's failure as an organization is evidenced by its lack of success in acquiring talent via the draft over the years. And he said, quote, why do the New England Patriots, their teams in the NFL that have far greater players than the Patriots have? You know, they draft ahead of the Patriots every year. So on paper, there are teams that have been drafting ahead of the Patriots for 15 years, yet they can't beat them. Why?

What? Because they have bad players? No, there's something else there. It's called an elite culture, elite leadership. And then a reference back to the Redskins, they don't have that. There's something wrong with the organization. You want Dwayne to be great. put a lot of greatness around him. That's the one common denominator of all great

quarterbacks. They have great players around them, closed quote. So this was Urban Meyer. You know, ripping the Redskins organizationally in sort of defense of Dwayne Haskins. Again, I would start with, I don't really think he needs to defend Dwayne Haskins first year. I don't. And we all have different opinions about Haskins. And I understand some of you have the opinion that he wasn't very good. I have a different opinion. I thought that he was, you know, overall, it was very encouraging and it started, you know, obviously inconsistently, but it got better, and the last game and a half that he played, he was outstanding in. Outstanding it. That last, that last game, full game against Philadelphia, and the last half game against the Giants,

he essentially in six quarters, you know, for 394 yards, four touchdowns, no interceptions, and completed about 75% of his passes. Yeah, 74% of his passes. Yeah, I think that that's a significant, you know, improvement to end that season that way. So I don't really think that Urban Meyer really needed to defend him in that way, but it's his former player. and, you know, I think there's definitely some recognition here, right, from Urban Meyer, that at least last year's Redskins organization was a hot mess.

Now, he's not revealing anything to us. Okay, we know that. Let me rephrase. 95% of us understand how bad this organization's been, how awful the culture's been, how non-conduasive it's been to winning and to young men. players with talent. You know, it's just not been great. And I think that Urban Meyer was doing a couple of things here. I think that he was absolutely ripping the organization for last year, and that may be directed more towards Bruce. But, you know, it's strange because just last

week, the night that the schedule was released, Urban Meyer was part of the Redskins, you know, revealing of their own schedule on their website. They had Urban Meyer and Matthew McConaughey, and I think B. Mitch and Fred Smoot were part of the festivities. You know, so Urban Meyer has a relationship with Dan Snyder. You know, he sat in his box during that Eagle game last year when he was at the Army Navy game and then came over, you know, that Sunday morning to, and that remember all the rumors that were flying around that Sunday morning about, oh, Urban Meyer's going to be the next coach. And that caused that, that, that, that, prompted Todd McShay to say the following week,

Urban Meyer's a friend of mine, I'm paraphrasing at this point, Urban Meyer's a friend of mine, I will urge him that there are 32 NFL organizations, and there are 31 of them that are better than the Redskins. But, you know, to just say that Urban Meyer was criticizing the organization that Dwayne played in in his first year, based on the circumstances last year, which would include Bruce Allen being in the mix,

would be to sort of ignore one of the last lines in this transcript of the podcast that he was on with the two NFL network guys, Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. Because he says in talking about the Patriots and essentially saying the Patriots have elite culture, elite leadership. He then says, and this is not past tense, they don't have that, referring to the Redskins. There's something wrong with the organization. You want Dwayne to be great? Put a lot of greatness around him. That's the one common denominator of all great quarterbacks. They have great players around them. By the way, as a quick aside, you know, he's wrong about that too. He's not totally right about that. It's probably a better way to describe it. The common denominator of all great quarterbacks is not that they've got great players around them. That's not the common denominator.

The common denominator of all championship quarterbacks, if he said it that way, it would be closer to being true, but even that wouldn't be true. Aaron Rogers has not had the greatest of players around him, but he is a great quarterback, one of the great quarterbacks of all time. And what he's done is he has been one of those very few examples of an elite quarterback that elevates everybody around him. And by extension, elevates an organization. I don't think Dwayne is that. I don't. I think Dwayne is in that group of quarterbacks or winning quarterbacks that aren't great or elite. They've got great players around them. I mentioned this earlier this morning, even the elite culture, elite leadership, elite organization thing isn't always true.

You know, Kurt Warner took the Arizona Cardinals owned by Bill Bidwell to the Super Bowl and nearly won it that year. That was not a good organization. Kurt Warner elevated that entire organization. Peyton Manning, for all intents and purposes, did the same thing with the Colts in 1998. You know, Bill Pollian was there. They had a general manager there. Jim Mersey had hired Polion, but it was Peyton Manning that took this moribund, dysfunctional, poorly owned NFL franchise, you know, and elevated it to championship caliber. I know they went to an AFC championship game with Harbaugh in the mid-90s. I understand that. That's fair. But Peyton Manning elevated that franchise. It was not considered to be a high culture, elite cultured franchise. No one's ever

accused Jim Mersey or Bill Bidwell of being, you know, in the top tier of owners. They've always been in the bottom tier of owners. The NFL is designed for two things, lots of things, two things for the purposes of this conversation. Number one is to have a good season. Doesn't necessarily make you a good organization, but the NFL is designed for every team to have a chance at a good season. That's why the Redskins, as a bottom-feeding franchise with bad culture, every once in a while hits that inside straight, gets some decent play, ball bounces their way, they stay healthy, and they're in the playoffs. You know, one out of every five years, essentially, has been the average during the Snyder tenure.

You know, in some cases, you can win a playoff game or two, but good organizations have good culture which results in sustained winning. So the NFL's designed for a good season. The NFL is also a league in which if you get the right person and player at the most important position on the field, quarterback, you can, and that person can elevate the organization. They can totally essentially wipe away the nastiness that comes from dysfunction in the organization. Now, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be easier being with a better organization.

We understand that. It would be great for elite, truly elite quarterbacks to also end up in really good organizations. But a quarterback can really wipe out a lot of dysfunction, or at least mask it, because there's such an impact on the actual game itself at that position. Now, I don't know that Dwayne is that player. I don't know, I don't think he's that player. You know, my, I mean, I'm being repetitive here, but my overall guess at this point is that Dwayne, the bust potential's been eliminated. I don't think he's going to be a bust.

I think he's going to be a starting quarterback in the NFL. And I think he's got a chance to be in that range of guys, you know, from 8 to 15, legitimate top half of the league's starting quarterback. I think he's got that kind of potential. Do I see, you know, elite greatness, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rogers? You know, do I see that in him? Patrick Mahomes, I don't. Maybe I'll see it after another eight starts or nine starts. Get him up to where he's played a full 16 games and started a full 16. I think there's a lot of talent there. But getting back to the Urban Meyer comments, he really got after the organization. You know, and you can sit there and say to yourself, yeah, he's really talking about last year's organization. He's not really talking about this year's organization. And as I say that, I don't believe that now. necessarily. I think he may be talking about last year's situation being much worse and that he

probably likes and respects Ron Rivera and thinks that this year is going to be better. But, you know, he didn't say that last thing in past tense. He said it in present tense. And as I'm sitting here talking about this, it's just, you know, to me, it's like if Tommy were here and he'll weigh in on this tomorrow. You know, Tommy would give you the old Laverro's, you know, one of Laverro's, you know, one of Leverro's rules. He would say, you know what I always say. You know what I always say? If things look bad, Kevin, from the outside, they're likely much worse on the inside.

I've learned a lot from Tommy over the years. But that's one of his favorite things. And so he's not really exposing this, but he's, you know, he's obviously confirming it for those that didn't think the Redskins had a bad culture. but what we're seeing and what we're reading and we're hearing, it was much worse. I mean, there are enough things that we've all heard in the media. It was bad. That's why when some of you would argue with me, you know, and say I was being negative

about the organization, look, you don't have to go beyond the results to be negative, but the results were caused by just incredible dysfunction. You know, Bruce Allen was not good at his job. Dan Snyder's not been good at his. And one of the things that Tommy will say tomorrow, too, is that if you believe that Urban Myers just referring to last year, you're being incredibly naive. You're being duped.

You're a stooge. You know, because we've learned this over the years. That Ron Rivera, people like Ron Rivera, even though maybe guys like Sheehan, me, will be glass-haired. full thinking maybe Snyder is going to get it this time and they got themselves a good coach and if he can just stay out of it and let this guy do his, you know, give him full autonomy, it'll work out. I understand that. I do. I'm not naive. I'm not a mark on this thing.

If you told me I had to wager today on one of the two following results, Ron Rivera has great success or Ron Rivera does not have great success in Washington. And you told me I had to wager a lot of money, like real money. I would wager that he would not have long-term success, and he wouldn't be successful here. Why would I bet on the opposite? There is a litany of better coaches with better resumes that have been here that didn't work out for. Hall of Fame coach Joe Gibbs losing record here.

Mike Shanahan, Marty Schottenheimer, borderline Hall of Fame coaches didn't work out for them here. But so I understand. I understand that if you think that Urban Meyer is talking about Bruce Allen and last year's culture and it's different now, well, I am definitely leaning towards Ron Rivera having the chance. to build this in the way that he wants to build it. I think that that happy Thanksgiving Day press conference where Snyder talked about culture and he talked about coach-centric

and that Rivera's the guy and he's the guy that's going to lead us creative culture change and he's going to be the guy in charge. I think that Snyder for the moment anyway means it. You know, I do. I think that he's going to lead. them alone for the most part. And I think Rivera's going to have a chance to do this. You know, I guess the concern would be, the concern would be if things don't go well soon enough, you know, because that autonomy could be incredibly fleeting if Rivera doesn't win soon enough for the owner.

You know, remember this about Dan Snyder. and stop with the he's he wants to win he'll pay anything spend any amount of money stop with that okay because it's never worked and he's never been a good owner part of the problem i've always felt really over the last you know 10 years anyway is that there's never been any sort of an admission that he's been part of the problem it's always been somebody else's fault you know it was viny's fault. You know, good God, how did Vinny hire Zorn? That's a disaster. Everything was going well when I brought Coach Joe back, and we would have continued to win, and things would have continued to go well. Well, I mean, that's fine, except Coach Joe wasn't like he was not going to cover off

the ball in round two. He had a losing record here in four years. Yes, miraculously, he got two teams to the postseason, and that was fun in 2005 and 2007 playing playoff games. It was. But the Redskins weren't a good organization for the four years that Joe Gibbs was here. They just weren't. They had a losing record. There was terrible, terrible misstep after misstep in free agency during that period of time. Terrible missteps in managing contracts and, you know, the economics of the roster. You know, it was not functional.

It was much better coached. There was much better leadership in the locker room and on the football side of the operation. But God bless Coach Joe because I love him. But Coach Joe involved Dan, involved Vinny. Let him have say in what was going on. Whereas, you know, Marty Schottenheimer didn't. And that's why he didn't last. And Mike, you know, obviously had some power but didn't wield it perhaps as much as he should have early on.

with like Donovan McNabb as an example. I mean, the bottom line with Ron Rivera is, and the only reason I'm leaning more optimistically right now, but not naively, is they got themselves a really good coach, in my opinion, a respected person and leader. Dan also had to reach a bottom that was a new low for him. Now again, I don't think,

he blames it on himself. I don't think he looks in the mirror or looked in the mirror in December of last year and said, I just realized it's my fault. It's been me all along. I don't think that that happened. I think that he blamed Bruce for this, you know, and Jay for this, and Bruce hiring Jay and bringing Jay back. You know, and I think a lot of that is the way he goes. You know, essentially we had him very much involved for 10 years and then less involved for the last 10, except in key moments, which were very destructive, like RG3, perhaps like last year's draft, although maybe he got that one right. But it's never really been his fault.

With that said, you'd have to be a moron to look out from your owner's box at any point last year, especially late last year, and see basically a stadium that it's, is at best 20% full. And of the 20% full, you know, paying customers and they didn't pay much to get in, more than than half of them are rooting for the opponent. You'd have to be an idiot to look out there and not notice that, to not know what that means to your top revenue line. Now, the team is never going to go away.

The NFL's a juggernaut. All 32 teams share equally in TV money. The Redskins' value continues to go up, as does the value of every NFL franchise, regardless of winning. It's interesting that Pete Roselle designed a league in which it kept it healthy and continues to keep it healthy, but also in many ways designed a league that doesn't require winning to be outrageously valuable. You know, the Redskins are incredibly valuable, and they haven't won in 26 years. You know, they haven't been a significant factor in the NFL as a winner or a contender for, you know, more than a quarter of a century it's been.

But anyway, the Urban Meyer stuff I thought was interesting. I think, you know, in part, the other part of this that I think in some ways is encouraging. is that if Urban Meyer understands from the people that he talked to, including former players, how bad it was here last year, then Ron Rivera knows. And I'm not suggesting that I thought that Ron Rivera didn't know. I think some of you have concerns that Ron Rivera doesn't know exactly what he got himself into. I think he does. I think he does. I think he has spoken to culture now more than three times.

various interviews, you know, almost an admission that there has to be a culture change. So will he be allowed to see it through? Well, time will tell him that one. I think he's going to get a chance, certainly, to get it started in that direction. All right, a couple of words about my bookie. Whether you're down on your luck or just down because you're stuck, find relief with my bookie where there's never a quarantine on fun. Life without sports finally came to an end last week with a UFC card. There's another one this week. Over under submissions are available, KO decisions, every other type of bet that you can possibly ask for for the UFC card this weekend. Start off small or swing big for the fences by taking advantage of this stack card to win some

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etc. MyBooky.ag, you bet you win, and most importantly, when you win, you get paid. A few more things to get to on the show today. I read this after the radio show this morning. I thought it was pretty interesting because I think one of the debates that we as NFL fans will have over the next few years will be, so was it more Belichick or more Brady? I mean, we've already had that debate, but now that they're apart, you know, we're going to learn more about them. Now personally, I don't know what else you can learn about Brady. If he fails in Tampa, he may have failed because he was 42 years old going on 43, and that physically he just was diminished as most players get to that age. They have diminishing skills. So I don't know that we're ever going to learn much about Brady. Like even if he plays great next year with, by the way,

a terrific team around him and wins a Super Bowl, I don't think that that. that necessarily sort of separates him from Belichick, where you can say, see, it was more Brady. Now, I think Belichick has more of an opportunity. Belichick doesn't have a diminishing physical skill set. It's not required to be a coach. Belichick, if he goes on to win a Super Bowl or be a contender and have a contending team for the next few years with, say, Jarrett Stidim at quarterback, it's going to say a lot about Belichick. It's going to say a hell of a lot about Belichick.

Now, I bring this up because Asante Samuel, who played for the Patriots from 2003 through 2007, won two Super Bowls with the Patriots, weighed in on this particular discussion. And he essentially said it was always more Tom than it was Bill. He said the following, quote, I think Bill Belichick needed Tom to be successful. He tweeted this recently. Do you think Tom needs Bill? My answer is no.

Bill is known to be a defensive specialist. How many times did he have a top five defense and did they or we win the Super Bowl? Tom has always carried the team on his back with limited weapons. Josh McDaniel is the one who really raised Brady, not Belichick. That was Asante Samuel weighing in. Now, former Patriots safety Rodney Harrison got in on the debate as well, and he said, quote, I think it's stupid, essentially what Santee Samuel said. Because no matter how good those guys were together, guess what, they weren't very good without Teddy Bruske, Ted Johnson, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinnis.

I just think it's an injustice to all the great players that have come in there and really made major contributions to those championships. It's not just Brady, it's not just Belichick. So he wasn't necessarily saying it was more Belichick than Brady. He was just saying that the defensive talent was better than sort of what Asante Samuel said. I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. I do think if Belichick goes on and wins big and contends for many more years with just say an average quarterback or maybe a barely better than average quarterback, that he will have pretty. something beyond what he proved with Brady, and it will make us all in the long-term future

arguments say, yeah, but look at what Belichick did without Brady. Look what he did. He won a Super Bowl with Jared Stidham, or he got to a Super Bowl with Jared Stiddle, where he went to two straight AFC championship games and had five straight playoff seasons with Jared Stidham. You know, even that would be, you know, an indication of what a great coach he was. But if he goes on to win the whole thing without Brady, we're going to learn something about Belichick. But anyway, personally, I think it was both of them all along. And I don't doubt that Belichick will have a well-coached team that plays well, wins games, goes to the postseason. But I would be surprised if he wins championships without a really good quarterback, you know, a good to great quarterback.

Their teams have been at times, you know, underrated defensively. And usually when they've gotten to the postseason, they've been even better defensively than they were in the regular season. All right, last thing I want to get to is that, you know, this is sort of because there aren't live games, but it's also because of the last dance in this documentary that has consumed sports fans for the last four weeks with the final two episodes coming this Sunday night. ESPN and CBSSports.com did rankings of the all-time NBA players. Now, the ESPN.com did a ranking of the top 74 NBA players of all time, the 74 matching up with the

74-year history of the league. While CBSSports.com just did the top 15.com.com just did the top 15. players of all time and ranked them in order. I'll start with the ESPN list. And we'll do a little bit more on this tomorrow. But first of all, if you're wondering, you know, are there any Washington players? Well, the first thing when I see these lists that are longer than, you know, 10 or 20 players, I'm always looking for Elvin Hayes and for Wes Unseld to see where they are on this list. You know, my personal feeling is that Elvin Hayes is one of the all-time great NBA power forwards, and that he was probably a greater all-around player than West Unseld, even though Wes Unseld was, you know, Hall of Fame player and a phenomenal player in his own right.

Don't get me wrong. But I think Hayes had the better career. I think Hayes is considered by most historians to be better. You know, not by much, but better. That's the way I see it. I think Tommy and I've had this argument before, and I think he always goes west ahead of, ahead of Belvin Hayes. And I'm talking about in Washington, you know, Earl of Pearl Monroe and, and, you know, Gus Johnson, et cetera, those are Baltimore bullets, not Washington bullets. So I go with the bullets since they've been in Washington. So on this list of 74 players, man, this is a hard list to put together. Like, even at the bottom of the list, you're talking about all-time greats. You know, like the number 74 all-time NBA player is Artis Gilmore, the A-Train.

I mean, he was a great NBA player, a great NBA player. You know, a guy like Bob Lanier, one of the all-time great centers, is 71 on this list. Bernard King, 69th best player of all time. I mean, Bernard King was a ridiculous score. Pete Marevich is 68th. this will make Tommy go crazy when I tell him this if he hasn't seen it already. 68th on the all-time list is Pete Marevich. By the way, Earl Monroe was 64th on the list.

Lanzo Morning, Georgetown, 63rd on the list. Willis Reed, Tommy's all-time favorite, 60th on the list. Tommy will be apoplectic about that, because I think he believes Willis Reed's a top 10 player of all time. He's number 60 on this list. So number 50 on the list is Wes Unselt. And number 44 on this list is Elvin Hayes. So Elvin Hayes is six spots ahead of Wes Unseld on this list.

Elvin Hayes was a great player. The biggest problem with the Big E is he didn't play his best in the biggest games that he played in. He was not very good in the 1975 NBA Finals against Golden State. He really wasn't very good in the 1978 championship season that they won. He was in foul trouble in Game 7 in Seattle. He was on the bench when the game ended. Now, in 79, when they defended their title, he had some of the best games he had in his entire career in the postseason.

But he was just a scoring machine. his endurance level was all time. He never missed a game. He played a ridiculous number of minutes in every game he played in. He barely sat. He's an all-time great, so it was unselled. Ahead of him, by the way, Russell Westbrook comes in 42nd on this list. But anyway, the debate really starts when you get into like the top 15. And, you know, there are a couple of guys outside the top 15. I mean, I know Tommy would consider, you know, Willis Reed to be, you know, worthy of a top 15 discussion. Just outside the top 15 guys that, you know, some of you might make a case for, Dirk came in at 19th, Moses Malone came in at 18th, Carl Malone at 17 and Jerry West at 16.

You know, you could easily make the case for any of them to put him somewhere inside the top 15. at 15 was Dr. Jay. Now, I have always said, and I've been mocked for it, and that's fine, that I think Dr. Jay is an all-time great. Don't get me wrong. But in the conversation of the greatest, when people put him into that conversation with Bird and with Magic and Jordan, you know, before the Kobe LeBron era, these would be some of the conversations, I would say, no, he's not in that group.

He's not in that group. He's an all-time highlight real player. You know, he's a great player. Clearly, Dr. Jay was. It'd be insane not to say that. But I think on my list, and I've always said this, he's outside the top 10 and he might be outside the top 15. And I didn't try to act like Julius Irving wasn't, you know,

a top 15, top 20 player of all time. I just always had him on the backside of that countdown. And on this list, Julius Irving is number 15. You know, and I guarantee you there will be some people that will have a problem with that that think Dr. Jay should be higher up on this list. Here's who's in front of them. Kevin Durant comes in at 14 and Steph Curry comes in at 13. So that will be a debate among many, you know, Curry versus Durant.

Curry's one spot ahead of them. I think that's fine for right now. Now, Durant still has, and Curry still has, time to continue to move up this list. 12th on this list is Hakeem Elijah 1. He's the guy that for me, in the same way Tommy thinks Willis Reed is always criminally underrated. I always feel that Elijah Juan is underrated and doesn't get his due in the greatest centers of all-time conversation. I'd put him right there after Wil and Russell and Kareem. To me, he's right there after that.

Now, there are other centers in front of them like Shaquille O'Neal. you know, on this list. Oscar Robertson, by the way, was 11th, and then you get to 10, and that's where Shaq is. I think Elijah won's a greater player and was a better player than Shaq. I would have him ahead of Shaq. You know, that's me. At number nine is Kobe. So Kobe Bryant, definitely a top 10 player. And by the way, the other titles he won, you know, without Shaq, moves him in front of Shack. I have no problem with him being at number nine. Tim Duncan's eight. And this is where, you know, again, a guy, I think Elijah Juan should be in front of Shack. I think Elijah Juan should be in front of Duncan. Duncan's one of the great winners of all time.

Elijah won two titles, too. Let's not forget that. But Duncan comes in at eight. And then you get into, you know, the conversation, I think, that pretty much in recent years, people have narrowed the list down to try to get to some sort of Mount Rushmore. At seven is Larry Bird. At seven is Larry Bird. At six is Wilt. Five is Magic. Four is Russell. Three is Kareem. Two is LeBron. And one is Michael. So I think that's the list. I think after Bird at seven, I mean, some of you may want Kobe on that list. Some of you may want Duncan. Personally, I think Elijah One could be in that truly elite group.

But I think that when people talk about, all right, who's on Mount Rushmore, NBA all time? The list comes from the top seven. Like, I think they got the top seven right. You know, Bird, wilt, Magic. I think Magic, personally, I'd put Magic ahead of probably Russell, and Kareem and LeBron. To me, Magic would be number two after Michael. I think LeBron's too high.

But, you know, this gets into that argument, and I have it with my kids all the time. I mean, they think LeBron's the greatest player of all time, and they don't want to hear anything differently. You know, and they always point to the fact that LeBron leaves Cleveland, and they're the worst team in the league the next year. They're like, when did that ever happen? You know, Michael Jordan left, you know, for those two years,

and the next year they won 55 games, without him. And it's a good point. You know, LeBron, every time he left a team, that team went, you know, basically went to near the bottom of the standings. It's amazing what LeBron did with certain teams. Like that team that he took to the NBA finals against Golden State that lost in six with Delavadova and Amman Shumpert and Timothy Moskhov. I mean, what a performance he put on, put on an all-time performance to carry that team to the NBA finals and be in it. They lost in six.

I mean, I've come around on LeBron being on a list like this. I'm not a LeBron fan. I'm not. And I am a magic guy, and I've always been a magic guy. And I think Magic and Michael, in terms of the non-centers, are one and then two. I'd probably put Magic 2 behind Michael. but it's close, really close. And then you get into, in the non-center discussion for me,

you get into LeBron, Larry, Kobe, you know, if you want to put Oscar on that list, you know, in terms of the non-centers. You put the centers into this conversation all time, which is what they've done. You know, ranking the centers is tough because, you know, most people, you know, will look at Russell and say the greatest defensive center, the greatest winner of all time.

They'll look at Wilton, say no greater player in terms of the gifts that he had, the talent that he had, the numbers that he put up. You know, Kareem, it's a combination of winning and the numbers. Then you get into Elijah and Shaq and Duncan. I mean, winners, all of them, numbers, all of them. But for whatever reason, they're always sort of ranked a little bit below Wilton, Kareem, and Russell. My biggest gripe in the top 15 is I would have Elijah one a little bit higher. I'd have Magic a little bit higher. I'd probably have LeBron a little bit lower.

I'd probably have magic in front of LeBron for right now. All right. I'm still leaving out the possibility that LeBron could move in front. I think it's really hard with the centers and the other players. But I don't have a problem with Russell and Kareem being where they are. I'd probably move magic to four behind the two centers. He'd be number two in the non-center conversation. But I love these lists this time of year.

And the CBS Sports.com top 15. They had Jerry West at 15, Dr. Jay at 14, Curry at 13, Oscar at 12, Elijah won at 11, so one spot higher. Then they had Kobe at 10, Duncan at 9, bird at 8, and Shaq at 7. You know, Shaq going on to win with Wade in Miami is, you know, a feather in his cap. You know, he got that done without Kobe there. Wilk comes in six. Magics five on this list, too, Russell, Kareem, LeBron, and Jordan. So they had the exact same top five that ESPN had.

Actually, did they have the same top six? Was Wilts' six on this list? Yeah, they had the exact same top six. six on this list. They had shack ahead of bird. Anyway, conversation for tomorrow, I would think, if Tommy wants to weigh in on that, and I would guess that he will want to do that. Last thing before we run, it's the whole baseball economics about returning.

You know, the story last night is that baseball basically held a call yesterday a conference call yesterday between, you know, owners and players association and the actual economics of a return were not even discussed, which is strange. You know, what was discussed were a lot of the COVID-19 protocols, including things like contact tracing and how they'll handle a positive test, which, by the way, just as an aside, is a bit encouraging in its own right. the fact that they're talking about procedures in the case of a positive test rather than sort of throwing in the towel and saying,

if we get a positive test, that team's out or we got to shut it down. Because there's going to be a positive test in all of these sports. And so if they're talking about moving forward and they understand there's going to be a positive test, I think somebody's going to test positive. that's encouraging if you want sports back. I think that what the protocol will be, obviously, is if somebody tests positive, they're out, you know, and maybe with contact tracing the four or five players that they've been in most recent contact with will be out. Now,

in football, what if they just played a whole team? I mean, it gets really, it gets interesting, but what wasn't discussed, and this is what I wanted to get to, what wasn't discussed were the economics. You know, the Players Association believes that this conversation was sort of settled in March the last time they talked and that they would be paid on sort of a pro-rated basis based on the salaries they were due to receive. And the reporting on this has been that the owners are going to want a 50-50 split. That, you know, they're going to pay the players based on a percentage of overall revenue so that they're sort of sharing in the risk in this very unique season.

Tell you what, it's going to be really hard for the players with people dying and people without jobs and people being furloughed and health care workers putting their lives on the line every day. It's going to be really hard for the players to say, you know, the league's going to generate $4 to $5 billion with an 82 game schedule. well, 50% of that's just not enough. That's going to be hard. And at the same time, you know, there are going to be some of you that would say,

well, the owners can afford it. Just pay them the salaries. But I personally think that there should be some sort of shared risk reward. It's unknown what they're heading into in terms of revenue. You know, they'll have a lot of fixed revenue when it comes to things like television and perhaps even certain sponsorships. But there's certainly not, you know, a, guaranteed amount based on last year's projection of attendance of people showing up at the park.

I think how that plays out will be very interesting on a lot of levels. By the way, I mentioned yesterday that I did a poll on the radio show yesterday about, you know, and Tommy and I talked about it, when do you think you'd feel comfortable again going back to a PAC Stadium or arena? 50.5% was the winner. I honestly don't know. That was the answer. I honestly don't know. more than half the respondents and we had over 3,000 votes. 50.5% said I honestly don't know. 25.6% said they would do it now. 20% said a year from now.

And the people who said never, it was at 3.8%, which I think on some level is encouraging. Of course I understand the people with underlying diseases and the elderly and that this has been a moment in time, which they can't put back into the, the barn and that, you know, if they go to stadiums or arenas for concerts or sporting events, that they probably won't want to do it anymore. I get that. But I think it's encouraging that that number is so low because it says to me that not everybody's thrown in the towel on this,

you know, and that, you know, they understand that at some point they're going to have to get back to living their life and living their life assessing the risks. And, you know, you know, making plans to try to minimize the risk, you know, to a certain degree, but to continue to live their life. All right. I'm done for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.