The Kevin Sheehan Show - Was Dan Suspended Or Not?

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

Kevin with guests Doc Walker to talk Washington Commanders and more plus Brendan Marks/The Athletic to talk Duke-UNC on the show today. Kevin talked about Roger Goodell's statement yesterday about Dan Snyder which once again led to more questions than answers. Kevin on the new NFL OT rule, Tiger Woods potentially playing The Masters, and the 20-year anniversary of Maryland's Final 4 win over Kansas.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. No numbers. Blake should pull it back. Good smart play there.

John Dixon. Yes. 20 point lead for the Terrapins. They see a little change in the look of the Kansas players right now, Jim. That was 20 years ago tonight, Maryland beating Kansas in the final football. in the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, 97 to 88. That was the de facto national championship game in most people's minds. The two remaining number one seeds.

Maryland, the number one seed out of the eastern region. Kansas, the number one seed out of the Midwest. Roy Williams, Gary Williams in a semi-final game. Kansas started off in the lead. They had a 13-2 lead. They were favored in the game. I didn't remember that. They were a one-and-a-half-point favorite.

The total in the game, by the way, was 169. That would have been the highest over under total, I think, of this most recent NCAA tournament. And it sailed over with a 97 to 88 final. Juan Dixon led the way with 33. Chris Wilcox at 18 and 9. The Kansas Jayhawks were led by Nick Collison and Kirk Heinrich and Drew Gooden. And that was Roy Williams' third final four. he had not won and would not win a national championship at Kansas.

They lost in his first Final Four to Duke in the final in 1991 when Duke broke through against UNLV. And then they got back to the Final Four in 1993 and lost in the semifinals. The following year, Roy Williams would take Kansas back to the national championship game in his final year at Kansas, losing to Syracuse in the final. But 20 years ago, Kansas and Maryland in the national semifinals on Easter Eve, I remember the day very well, young kids, super young kids, all excited about the Easter Bunny, while dad was all excited about the final four game.

20 years ago today, huge win. Gary Williams breaks through. They had lost the final four game the year before to Duke after having a 22-point lead, and they were off to a national championship game against Indiana who had beaten Oklahoma earlier in the day. Oklahoma coached by Kelvin Sampson and an Oklahoma team that was favored against Indiana and had beaten Maryland earlier in the year in Norman

in a non-conference game in December by 16. It was one of Maryland's only losses. Maryland lost four games that entire season, finishing 32 and 4. one of those losses was to Oklahoma off of like an 11-day absence of playing because of final exams. Gary Williams has told us before he didn't schedule that game well. But anyway, that's how we start the show, remembering 20 years ago tonight. That was exciting.

And then it was off to the national championship game. On the show today, Doc Walker will be on with me. And also, Brendan Marks will be on with me. I think you will enjoy this conversation. Brendan covers Duke and Carolina for the athletic. So we will do some Duke, North Carolina Final Four talk. That nightcap on Saturday night, one of the most anticipated college games in years. There was a lot of stuff that happened after the podcast yesterday.

And I'm going to rip through some of this before I'm going to settle in on a short conversation about something that Roger Goodell said. and some of the stuff that Ron Rivera said yesterday. First of all, the overtime rule was as predicted. I got something right finally here recently. I predicted that the overtime rule would be adopted for the postseason only. It would be the Philadelphia-Indianapolis recommendation, which is mandatory possessions for both teams, but it's only going to be implemented for playoff games to start.

We'll see how it goes. I'm not convinced totally that that will become a regular season rule right away. It took two years. The last time you had the significant change from sudden death, field goal ends it on any possession, first team to score, to the touchdown ends it on the first drive only. That was a playoff implementation early on as well, and then they moved it to the regular season in 2012.

then we got the change from 15 minutes to 10 minutes in 2017. I still think they ought to move the overtime period in the regular season back to 15 minutes. I think 10 minutes is just too short. I just think that the true safety benefit that you get from that is negligible. But you won't see what happened in the Kansas City Buffalo game ever again. I was thinking about for you, betters out there. You know, the most points that could be scored in an overtime period prior to this rule change, the most points that could be scored, 12.

You could have had field goal, field goal, and then touchdown, six points, no extra points on that touchdown. You could have had 12 extra points scored. That was the maximum in an overtime per the old rules. Now you could actually have 22 points scored in overtime in the playoffs right now. You could have a team score and go for two to get eight. You could have a team answer go for two, score eight, and then you could have a team win with a walk-off touchdown once it got to sudden death with six more. So you could have 22 extra points is the maximum for an overtime period in a playoff game

versus what it used to be, which was 12. Now, you know, more likely than not, you're not going to go for two on your first possession if you score a touchdown. And if you both score touchdowns with 14 points, you're then really only looking for field goal range and a field goal to win it. It would be pretty rare that you got an 8, 8, and then a 6 in overtime. But the new rule could change the strategy with respect to whether or not you take the ball to open up overtime or you go on defense. The context of the game will matter more.

You were always going to take the ball if you could end the game on the opening possession with a touchdown. You know, it was an advantage team that won the coin flip, even though it was 50-50 over the course of a long period of time. and then 54% once they reduced it, I think, to 10 minutes. And then the playoff number was higher, which was really the compelling piece of data that the league decided to move on, that more games in the postseason were decided by the team that won the coin toss or by a touchdown in particular than in the regular season. But with that new rule in the postseason,

if it's a low-scoring game, if it's a defecoring game, if it's a defensive battle, if the weather's bad, you could now choose if you won the coin toss to go on defense first. Because a touchdown's not going to beat you. More importantly, if you can get a stop, then all you need is a fuel goal to end the game. So anyway, there we go. Obviously, in overtime, too,

if it's tied at the end of 15 minutes, you keep going. But it's sudden death after the mandatory possession for both teams. teams. A couple of other things that I wanted to mention. How about Tiger Woods playing a round at Augusta? Boy, what seemed as if it would be impossible, now looks possible that Tiger Woods may play Augusta next week. Now, I had reached out to all of my golf friends, Scott, Steve Sands, etc. And none of them thought this was a possibility. I think Steve Sands told us on the podcast a while back that the biggest problem with Augusta for Tiger after his accident is the hills at Augusta, the elevation and the walk would be really, really difficult to handle that, you know, more likely than not a flat course, as an example, would be more, you know, possible for Tiger. And, you know, the open championship, as an example, this year, is at St. Andrews. So it's more of a walking course, more of a, I'm sorry, more of a course that can be walked without great, you know, duress or stress physically so that that might be the place where he returns.

But, you know, according to the reporting yesterday, and I read this from Mark Schlebar, good friend who's been on the show many times to call college football. football, five-time Masters champion Tiger Woods, trying to come back from serious leg and foot injuries. He suffered in a car wreck about 14 months ago, played 18 holes at Augusta on Tuesday. He played all 18 holes with his son Charlie and PGA Tour Pro Justin Thomas, his close friend. He played every one of them, a source told ESPN, and he looked good to me, the source said. Woods and his team arrived at Augusta Regional Airport. and then played 18 holes. Now, if you follow the reporting on this, the key was, how did he feel this morning?

We haven't gotten any reporting on that as we're recording the podcast. But my God, what a stir. What a huge, huge story that would be if Tiger Woods returned to golf next week at Augusta. Anyway, other things real quick. that I wanted to mention. I saw this story from Eric Flack. Eric Flack is a reporter for WUSA Channel 9. Eric Flacks had a lot of stories related to Washington's pursuit of a stadium site.

I think he was the one that broke the story about the three sites in Virginia, which included Dulles and then Woodbridge and dump. freeze for crying out loud. Well, he had a story last night on the WUSA9.com website. Now, this was kind of a follow-up to the Michael Phillips story, which I think we told you about earlier in the week. Michael Phillips had reported on Friday that Virginia had cut their commitment for a new stadium complex in Virginia at any one of the three sites from a billion dollars to 350

million. So they had basically cut it in a third. And that's a, that was a huge difference. Well, and Michael Phillips had suggested, and I think very, you know, spot on, that they realized that they were kind of bidding against themselves, that D.C. is not going to spend any money, and that Maryland may be spending some money on infrastructure, but it was nowhere near the third of the cost, which was a $3 billion price tag, no one was offering up a billion dollars worth of contribution. Well, in Eric Flack's story,

he had a quote on the condition of anonymity from a Virginia state senator who said, quote, public reaction to this project has been underwhelming. With every passing day, it's evident the team lacks gravity, closed quote. man, I mean, I think that there is sometimes, you know, entering into this, there's some excitement from politicians.

Ooh, get the stadium in Virginia, be a part of this big thing. And then they realize they don't have much constituent support because the fan base has eroded so significantly. And they're bidding against themselves. So why would we offer up a third of the cost when in Buffalo, the deal that was just done, the Pagula's, the Pagoolas, the bills owners, are paying $350 million of a $1.4 billion price tag. So they're basically getting a billion dollars from the state of New York and Erie County for their new stadium. Meantime, Snyder is probably going to have to fight to find somebody to give them 10% of what the price tag may ultimately be. And that's if they pass next week, the 350 million.

million dollar commitment. Right now, this stadium bill is up for final passage during a special session of the Virginia legislature next week. So we'll see. I think Tommy is really close to being right on all of this, and that is Landover. That's where it's ultimately going to be because nobody wants to do business with Dan Snyder. Obviously, the right place for this to be would be DC, but they're not offering anything. Maryland, the harbor area, would probably be a close second, but Maryland's offering basically infrastructure only. So Virginia is still out there with the most attractive offer in terms of $350 million. The problem is you could end up with a stadium in Dumfries for crying out loud. You know, the more and more you follow this, and

let's just say next week the Virginia legislature doesn't pass this, and they don't pass the $350 million commitment. And Snyder is just sitting out there with no stadium deal. And the only prospect being to build on his own land and landover, the land he owns. Man, you know, you almost, look, most teams that have relocated in the past have relocated, because the cities that they are in aren't coming through with a new stadium. San Diego didn't vote on a new stadium using taxpayer dollars to fund a new stadium. We've had that, you know, in a lot of moves. Cleveland initially with their move to Baltimore.

You know, Washington, if the DMV doesn't come through with taxpayer dollars for a new stadium, maybe he'll move it to St. Louis. and Washington can get an expansion team, the St. Louis commanders, and then maybe we can get the Washington Warriors or something different than a Snyder-owned commanders team. I'd be for that. I would be. And again, I've mentioned this before,

but for those of you who say, well, you know, be careful what you wish for on the owner front. No, you can't get worse. I mean, it would be impossible, really, for it to be any worse. But that's likely not going to happen. We'll see. But Landover, remember, they own the land. You know, it's the least amount of out-of-pocket costs for him to build a stadium on the land that he already owns,

where it's already been approved to have a stadium. It's not like you're going to have neighborhood pushback on a new stadium. They've already got a stadium there. Okay. That leads me to this. some of the Rivera Goodell stuff that kind of came out after, I guess the Rivera stuff we talked about a little bit here on the podcast yesterday, but Roger Goodell held his, you know,

owner meetings press conference, the press conference later in the day. I wanted to make one comment because I watched the whole thing. I'm not a big Roger Goodell fan by any stretch of the imagination, but he is getting better. He used to be a horrible communicator. He's gotten so much better. Just an observation.

But anyway, I want you to listen to this question from Nikki Javala from the Washington Post to Roger Goodell about the Washington situation. When the league announced the findings of Beth Wilkinson's investigation into Washington's workplace last July, said Dan Snyder would focus on the stadium and other matters, and Tonya Snyder would take over daily operations and represent the club at Team Matters. league functions. Is that still the case? Are you able to provide any insight into what Dan Snyder's role is and statuses with the team currently?

Yeah, Nikki. The Dan Snyder has not been involved in day-to-day operations. Don't believe he's been at the facility at all. And we continue to have League Matters. Tanya has represented the team as the CEO, both on a day-to-day basis, but also here at the Leap. She represented the club here, and that will continue for the, at least,

the foreseeable future. Dan and I will talk about that at some point. Roger Goodell. Dan Snyder's not been involved in day-to-day operations. Don't believe he's been at the facility at all. And when we continue to have League Matters, Tanya's represented the team as the CEO both on a day-to-day basis, but also here with the league. She represented the club here and that will continue for at least the foreseeable future. But Dan and I will talk about that at some point, closed quote. I actually think the last sentence, but Dan and I will talk about that at some point, is the most interesting part of the Goodell answer. Because as most of you know, because I think I've played this on the show or certainly talked about this on the show, this was Ron Rivera with me on the radio show

back in late September after three games and prior to their week four game against Atlanta. I'm just curious, have you had conversations with Dan about this start to the season? And if so, what's he said? It's always good to talk to Mr. Steyer. We just visit and chat about what's happening, so it's been real positive. How often do you talk to him? Probably about once or twice a week,

just depending on the situation, circumstances if we run into each other around the facility or at the game or at the stadium or something like that, or I'll call or he'll call. You know, we'll talk. So that was at the end of September with me on the radio show his weekly appearance on my radio show, mentioning that, you know, he talks to Dan, Mr. Snyder,

you know, around the facility, stadium on game day, et cetera. Gadell telling reporters yesterday that he does not believe that he's been at the facility at all. I'm not going to make a big deal out of this, okay? He doesn't, you know, he doesn't believe he's been at the facility at all. It sounds like there's no requirement for him to stay away from the facility. So I'm not going to make a big deal out of this about that part at all. I just want to mention, though, that if we go back to the Beth Wilkinson findings, which were presented to Roger Goodell last June,

and then the Lee came out with a very terse statement, you know, talking about the misogyny, the environment that was toxic for women, the environment that included bullying and intimidation, and included the $10 million fine of the team and the announcement that Tanya Snyder would be taking over the day-to-day responsibilities as a co-CEO and Dan would be kind of focused on some bigger picture things like the stadium. You know, since that moment, it's been, you know, very vague, very nonspecific.

And really, to be honest with you, boring to follow now for me. I'm less interested in this. Netting it out, Dan immediately pushed back on the notion that he was fined, having his lawyers call people to say that it was the team that was fined, pushing back on the narrative that he had somehow been quasi-suspended or actually suspended, saying that was not the case. And yet over, you know, the course of multiple Goodell comments over the last, you know, six to ten months, including yesterday, we've gotten the implication from Goodell that there was

kind of a suspension or some kind of he's got to stay away from the day-to-day operations. I mean, when he says, you know, when he said yesterday that she represented the club here and that will continue for at least the foreseeable future, but Dan and I will talk about that at some point. Well, that's an indication that somehow Dan's got to get approval from the commissioner before he can get back to, you know, the role that he had before. But no one's ever said that he was suspended. No one's ever, you know, and certainly Dan didn't want to take responsibility. See, that's the thing. Like every time this comes up, I'm reminded of what my initial reaction was when Dan had his lawyers calling everybody to insist that he wasn't fine the team was and that he

wasn't suspended at all. And that reaction at the time last June, and it's still the reaction today, is, God, you know, it would have been so much easier and so much more beneficial for the league and for Dan to just have an actual announced fining of Snyder and suspension of Snyder. not that people still wouldn't want to see the Beth Wilkinson report but it would have at least given some legit teeth to the punishment for whatever they found or whatever was presented by Beth Wilkinson to Lisa Freel and to Roger Goodell but no Dan doesn't get it because he's too much of a past the buck guy

You know, he's too narcissistic, he's too arrogant. You know, to be honest with you, he's clearly lacking in self-awareness. It would have been a huge benefit to him. And by the way, what's the suspension really mean for an owner anyway? If he had been suspended for six months or a year, he's not allowed to watch the games, he's living with the day-to-day co-CEO, he's not going to know what's going on, he's not going to have real input. Come on.

It would have been so easy for his. him to just accept whatever the league wanted to give to him. But no, it's never his fault. And no way is he going to accept responsibility for something that he believes was Bruce Allen's fault or someone else's fault before. Again, the calendar math I've discussed many times, Bruce Allen actually wasn't even in the organization for most of the allegations that took place. When Snyder refers to these allegations is so old as if there's a statue of limitations in the court of public opinion on them, he doesn't realize that he's actually putting himself closer to the scene of the crime. That is a figurative description there, the scene of the

crime. Maybe there were crimes, who knows. Just so dumb, so arrogant. Like it's sitting up, teed up for something that actually would have benefited him. And the league, last June, for the league to look serious. We just gave Dan Snyder the largest fine we've ever given an owner, and we have suspended him for a year. No. Couldn't take it. Couldn't accept it.

And so we've gotten this slight of hand description from the commissioner every time it's discussed. It's boring at this point. Just get him the hell out of D.C. Whatever you have to do, Roger, and the other 31 owners. Spare us another era of Dan Snyder-owned Washington football. I don't think that'll happen, though. All right.

When we come back, Doc Walker will be my guest, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the podcast brought to you by MyBooky. Go to mybooky.orgie.orgie.com. Use my promo code. Kevin D.C., all of the final four stuff is there and ready to be wagered on. If you use my promo code, they'll match your first deposit dollar for dollar all the way up to a thousand bucks. MyBooky at mybooky.ag or my bookie.com. On the show with us right now is my good friend, Rick Doc Walker. You can follow him on Twitter at Rick Doc Walker.

You can listen to his podcast at patreon.com slash Doc Walker. He does it with Sally. He's got great guests on the show all the time. I do want to talk a lot with you about the team, the commanders, they're called. But I have a question for you before we start, and it's this. Who's the most influential coach you ever played for at any level? That's a great question. Well, position coach Frank Gans, because you spend your most time with your position coach.

The offensive, I mean, the hit coach, if he's on your side of the ball, you have a little more time with him, but he could have a defensive guy. But having played for Dick Vermil and Joe Gibbs, along with several others, I had seven different head coaches. I would say

the longest with Joe clearly, I learned a lot from, but then all of them, because I won, we won with all of them. But I would say, Joe and Dick as head guys watching him run the whole organization, but Frank Gans as a position coach, untouchable. Frank Gans was, right, a head coach in the NFL for the Kansas City Chiefs, I believe,

at one point. Yeah, he was dynamic. You and I have had so many conversations either on the air off about, you know, coaches and their ability to influence and shape young lives. you played for him at UCLA to begin with, right, for Frank Gans? Yes. So what made him someone whose name came to your mind immediately when I asked that question? Well, I just think I've got seven years of volunteer coaching here on the East Coast Inn.

And, you know, youth, all volunteer, all, you know, high school youth, whatever. And I always believe that the person that you replicate is the person that had the biggest influence on your life. And to me, it's always I always say Frank Gans, because when I coach, I coach, if you didn't know Frank, if you knew Frank, you would go,

oh, that's Frank. I think it's the biggest compliment you give to anybody that mentored you in your life is that when you now coach, that's who you, because how would you know? And I know that

Frank, day one, set an expectation for our unit. He called our group a unit. And he said that I've never had a coach tell me the beginning. Well, two coaches. Herman McCulley at 13 in Youth Baseball, Legion Baseball, said that he was the best coach, and he picked the best players,

and we were never going to lose, and we were 25-0. That I had never had that impact me before, because every other coach said, as long as you give your best effort, that's good enough. He didn't say that. He said, we're going to win every game because he's the best. and we're the best that we did. And so, but with Frank Gans,

set expectations in the first meeting, the first time I've ever met him, he said that at the end of the year at our banquet, we would be the most decorated unit on the entire team, just between the tight ends and tackles. And we were the first on the field every day and the last to leave. That's Frank Gans.

He just said, you know, and you could, because you were a hell of a coach, and I'm sure you, and they're kids that come up to, and they see you at Starbucks. No, as a youth coach. Okay. All kidding aside. I know.

The best honor ever is when somebody at Starbucks says, hey, coach. Because it doesn't happen everywhere. But those that you were able to be around, when they respect that and you win with them and their parents, they adore you for the rest of your life because they can see the difference. Because when you stand out as a coach, you stick out like a sore thumb because most are mediocre. and although you appreciate their effort because it's a volunteer basis, it doesn't mean you're not supposed to be good at it because you do influence young people. Because I'm a product of it.

I just wanted to duplicate it. And I think I did with the kids I had a chance to coach because I was trying to represent these people. I, we've had so many of these conversations together over the years about coaching. And you're very encouraging. You're very upbeat, you're very enthusiastic. It's what makes you a very good motivational speaker as well. You have certainly a gift, a communication gift. But as a coach, was he, and then you said he was the most influential for you as a coach,

was it the encouraging style that I would guess that you would have? Yeah, it is. you know, in basketball, because you coach maybe 12 guys, as opposed football is so voluminous, but yet that's why I say the position coach, because those seven to 12 guys are in one room. Whereas Joe, he coached the offense. Richard Pettibone coached the defense,

and Wayne Severe coached the special teams, and they were all collectively the best I've ever been around. That's why I think those teams did very well. show, which I have the utmost respect for because most guys that are innovative won't change. They're stuck on their ideas. As soon as his major plan didn't look like it was going to work, he adjusted. And he coached to his personnel, not his X and O's. So, and I think that's a key trait for great ones.

They adapt, and that's why he won with different types of teams. but his core was always about the same basic. Everybody thought it was elaborate because of the movement, but that was just to throw you off scent. It was very basic because you can coach things that are solid, basic, you know, whether you're going to press, like Coach Thompson, who pressed. And pressing also sets a tone.

It's an attitude thing as much as a technique. And then so there's so many different variances, but based on who you have as players, then you know you adjust to your personnel. But it's always about winning. No matter what the deal is, it's about winning. And I've never seen anybody give as much of himself as Joe Gibbs did because he slept at the facility.

I'd never seen that. And then Dick Vermil, who is just, they're lunatic in terms of their commitment. But it makes you see how much you have to give and you can't do that unless you have a family that supports that. Because if they don't have great women behind them that allow them to be so single-minded, then they could never be as great as they become. So it is a team. And, you know, it's one thing for a coach to talk team.

Well, you've got to have a team at home too. You know. You know how your kids have sacrificed because you couldn't be at everything because you were with other people's kids. and that's why you got yours to be with you or you coached them because they put you around or more. Yeah, mine's not really comparable to the commitment that people like Gibbs and Vermil made. Do you know, I am looking at your 1975 Rose Bowl winning team where you were the starting tight end and John Chir who was the quarterback and Wendell Tyler was the running back and the coaching staff.

Oh my God, you've never told me about this. Dick Vermeel was the head coach. Terry Donahue, who would then become the UCLA coach, was the offensive line coach. Rod Dowhauer, who ended up coaching in Washington, was on the staff. Carl Peterson, Dick Tomey, Lynn Stiles. What a staff that was. Yeah. Yeah, well, great people, they're not only attract, but then they develop others.

You know, I don't know whether you attracted him, but he developed, and it happened. and it usually happens with most winning organizations or groups. There's people that work well together, and Billy Matthews, you didn't mention, also was in the NFL, running back coach, the only African-American on the staff. And at that time, that meant a lot because they weren't a lot. You know, we progressed a great deal in some areas and other areas that we really haven't. It's been out of snail's page. but no matter what rules and regulations you put in,

that's why winning is so difficult. That's why most fail. Because you can get a job, but you've got to make the job work. And that's where the challenge comes, and that's what I'm so enamored with. It's a arms race. You can give everybody the same amount of money,

you can give the same amount of food, same facilities, and it still won't change the outcome. some people are just they got it and others don't and especially when you put money involved in it you know at the collegiate level it's not like money really I mean other people didn't have that much money more money than we did or whatever facilities we were okay it wasn't maybe the best but that wasn't the factor

and I remember when Dick Vermil we tried the boycott of practice I told you the story before and he you know came in and ripped everybody's behind and said you got X amount of minutes to have your butt on the field. We were complaining about the fact that we were hitting, so doing so much, and then he brought us on the field, and we skirmish. It was the week of the boat playing Ohio State

and Roseville. And he made it very clear, don't get excited about being in the game. The excitement is winning it. And he was right. And so, but when you're young, like that, you're just excited. You're going to Disneyland. You don't get into that.

That's why, as we have floundered, you and I have done a million shows trying to protect this team, this franchise, and all this. We haven't been trying to protect them. We've called it as we've seen it. No, no, no. We've tried to

protect them in fact that we still love it and we pull in form. We never have done a show hoping that they would lose. Never. We've always hoped they'd win. Our frustration is out of love. It's not hate. I'm not hating. I want them to be successful.

I need Brack. can write. I got to deal with clay. So we're pulling for them. They may not always understand it to see it that way, but that's their ignorance. It's not ours. You know, we've seen it. They act like we've never seen it done well. That's the thing the kid tickled the hell out of me about them. Right. We've seen this work. Yeah, like we don't know what we're talking about. Oh, no, we're the idiots. Yeah, but they know it all. I'm going to prove it. We're going to get to that in a moment. I have more questions about UCLA. By the way, in the 76, January 1, 1976 Rose Bowl, UCLA beat Ohio State 23 to 10.

Doc Walker. He was known as Rick Walker at the time. Two catches 24 years in the game. I'm sure I've asked you this at some point over the years, but what was it like? Are you ever slow day? No, stop. What was it like to play football at UCLA? you know, when basketball was what it was.

UCLA was the John Wooden UCLA teams. I know 75 was his last year. In fact, you know, his final year before, it was the year before, but you were still there at UCLA with John Wooden and then in the wake of John Wooden. What was it like to be at UCLA when that was the champion in sports? It was UCLA and the Celtics, basically. Yeah, it was, coach would let me, I mean, you know, I love, I love hoops.

And he was, John's practices were open. I asked coach, we had the legendary trainer, Ducky Drake. And, and I would ask, you know, Ducky, because, you know, you see John, it sounds crazy. Now, the only thing I can compare it to would be like Coach K, Coach Thompson, Gary Williams, Guys that we know and had a chance to meet and work with and be around them, they're kind of normal to us, but to everybody else. It's like, you know, you had Gary on last week. You had Gary Williams on your show. You know, we worked with John Thompson.

And everybody else goes, wow. And for us, it was kind of normal. It's like being around Coach Wooden, and I asked coach if I go to watch practice. And he said, absolutely. Rick, as long as you don't, you've got to be quiet. You know, I would appreciate it if you didn't make any noise. And I was such a junkie over not necessarily basketball, but I was the pyramid of success.

Yeah. I couldn't get enough of quiet work. And he was nice enough to talk to my crazy bind because I was trying to get as much information from him as possible. So Larry Farmer, all these guys, so I said at practice, and I say, coach, why don't you have closed practices?

And he'd say, Rick, we have nothing to hide, and we don't game plan. We spend 90% of our effort trying to improve UCLA. And all his drill, everything was to get them fundamentally better. He didn't care what you did, so he was nothing for him to hide,

because he spent all this time worried about doing what they do. And then I was in the class of Marcus Johnson and Richard Washington and these guys. I could get a show. Richard went hardship. It was back in, well, it doesn't matter

to the format, but I did a show with them at their place. And these guys, you don't understand the difference, elevation. They stayed in a place you had to buzz to get in in college. What? I mean, they had a game room at their place. I'll never

forget it because I did an interview with them. And you could just see the difference, yet you didn't realize it. They had animals. They had an afghan. They had a dog. Can you imagine having an animal in college? You couldn't feed, I mean, you know, a hamburger was like a steak in college. And yet these guys, so they were at a different level, but you respected it, being at games.

I mean, are you kind of ticket for granted because you didn't know anything else? But it was special. And the fact that they'd go seasons without, you know, trying to win every game. And it was just such a big thing. And New Yorkers were very good. Then, too, the Celtics, they couldn't win it all because Celtics would beat them. And that's why when I'm watching Winning Time now, which I adore.

Oh, my God. I love it. I love it. You see you're watching it, too? What? Of course you are. I didn't wait. No, I had to binge it because I didn't want to, I don't, I can't wait.

week to week. It drives me nuts. I know. I waited for three weeks to get it going. I hate it. But I lived through that. I met Dr. Bus. Dr. Bus, I got to go to a Kings game with him and a couple of Laker deals. So all this is out that you see. I actually saw, and he was the coolest Trojan I ever knew. He was a good, yeah. You got to know Jerry Busch. You went to a Kings game with him? How did that come about? Because he was trying to sell me on hockey.

And I talked to Buss, Dr. Buss. Dr. Buss was a friendly guy. And, of course, I love the purple and gold. And he was trying to promote, you know, the Kings as well. So they had the Laker Club. A lot of that stuff I've seen, I saw. I had the chance on three occasions to actually be there, you know, had one of those two dinners with him,

pre-game type things, being a part of it. And, you know, my roommate in Cincinnati, a guy played with Mike Cobb, with Michigan State. So him in the Magic with dogs, that's how I got in. No, Magic was through Mike. But then, and Norm Nixon, I was at, you know, Norm's wedding, all those guys, Rich Coupaloup. I mean, that was a normal way.

You were at Norm Nixon's wedding, or did you say you were in his wedding? Yes, no, not in at. Oh, really? Not in. You knew Norm that well. You've never told me that. Yeah. Well, I mean, we don't, we talk so much about football.

Well, no. But not football. So how did you get to know Norm? Anyway, nobody cares. Why are you doing? You don't have the lowest rated podcast you've ever had. I like this. So I think that this show, Tommy, by the way, I told Tommy two weeks ago, I'm like, you got to watch this.

It's really well done. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's really well done. So Tommy did start watching it. He told me yesterday on the podcast, he goes, you know, it's just okay. And I said, were you going to watch the rest of it? And he said, yeah, I'm going to watch the rest of it. I love it. I think it's so well done.

But I would ask you, you know, because you just brought up Norm Nixon. Norm, you know, I mean, he's competitive. Magic's coming in to potentially take his job, which he obviously did. But he's kind of painted out to be a bit of an arrogant, you know, dude. Was he that way or not? Well, not to me, but I'm just saying that's the, that's the player side of him, not to me. But yeah, Norm had to be. I mean, the point guard and the shorter guys.

Yeah, I mean, but that was an arrogance that all the Lakers had. You're talking about Elton Baylor. I did not know that side of Jerry West, although Jerry would be a poly. So you meet a lot of guys that after the basketball career, I mean, Jerry is a Jim Rat. So if you're at the men's gym at UCLA or doing the Summer League basketball out there, it's huge. Jerry was always there in the arena. He's always watching. He's a gym rat.

I didn't know the temper. They make him seem like a lunatic. Lunatic. I mean, it's amazing. That's the biggest character change that I didn't know that side of him, but I didn't know Jerry like that. But you see him around, you become, it's normal. It's like when you, Bill Walton stories, all those stories that, yeah, we heard all that. That was normal because you were around them, you know, being at a game, it's not like Cameron because it's like they never expected to lose.

A lot of times they never did, but they didn't have the excitement or the frenzy that like, you know, Cole had with, you know, with Lefty or Gary. and infinity. There's a difference level of the intensity because they got so used to it. Yeah. And I don't know if they appreciated it the way that they do now. Now when they're getting back in it and they had good teams

and this team, you know, that repeated that was disappointing to lose because all of them were there. So they really were trying to chase that ghost is different. You know, it's like the Celtics or the Yankees. The Yankees have won since I had

It seems like, but yet you think of them as champions. You always think of them in that way. And I think that's what this football team had a taste of it for a minute, and now it's been, you know, eons. And that's what everybody's trying to get back to. We'll get to the football here in a moment. What did you make of the portrayal of Jack Kent Cook in winning time? Yeah, I thought it was pretty much what I heard or saw.

That didn't surprise me. I think it's so well done. I'm not caught up. I didn't see Sunday night yet. I'm going to probably try to get to that tonight. All right. Let's talk some Washington football. I know that I have talked to you, I think, on your podcast about the Carson Wentz trade,

but you have not talked about the Carson Wentz trade on this podcast yet. So what did you think of the Carson Wentz trade? Well, we had to get somebody. we had to upgrade the position, which I think they did. And what they paid for it, I think, was enormous price to go at, but they didn't have any other choice. What you've heard about him, I've heard about him. My people there said, you know, not the best guy, but that was then. Now he's got to evolve.

I think it's pretty well stated that this guy has, he needed to grow up and need to evolve. And he also needs to understand that this is his last chance to be QB1. And if he were to go back to some of the things, the habits that he created in Philadelphia and Indianapolis, this would be a disaster. But if he doesn't, and he makes plays and realizes that this could be his last chance, it's QB1, it could be well worth it. I don't think you have any other choice here because you're not a desired landing spot. and I think they panicked I think they jumped the gun but had they failed to get him

I'd say well what would you say then right and so that's why I don't think they can win I don't think there's any way they can come out of this and go they can't win and that's what happens when you dig yourself into a hole and that goes all the way back to cousins all the back to RG3

we go all the way back to 211 and we've just been one bad move after another and the domino effect comes in now. And so now you've got to overpaid to try to get back to neutral. What did you think of, and I don't know if you did this on your podcast yesterday or if you're going to plan on doing it today or for your next podcast. But Ron Rivera yesterday at the league meetings with all of the NFC coaches,

you know, having a chance to talk. You know, you could see there was some emotion in some of his answers, you know, there was a suggestion that people don't want to come here and he said essentially that's not true and he said at one point he said look we're an easy target and quite honestly I'm tired of it but the only way to fix it is winning that's the truth

what's your reaction to kind of Ron Rivera saying I'm tired of kind of the easy target criticism but I also recognize the only way to fix it is winning Yeah, 1419. I mean, you are, the record, you came into this, understanding that. It's not like this is the only offer Ron had. I think Ron Rivera would have been hired had he not hired him here when he was out.

I thought so too, but I think in the last year, I've learned that I'm not so sure. I mean, maybe the Giants in a reunification with Dave Gettlement, but I don't think Dallas was going to hire him. But anyway, go ahead. I don't know. I think Jerry might have. I mean, in a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Jerry would have. Based on Jerry's audience there in Texas, Ron Rivera would have been a hit. And look who he got. He got Gomer Pile. I mean, there's no way that Ron Rivera would not have been the cowboy or giant coach.

He would have been hired. So I think when you do your due diligence coming in here, you should have known that. But then again, what can I say? The guy he picked the trainer, we still don't know why the FBI took him out the building. So, let me come out. This was a reach. And I don't think Ron,

I don't blame it for trying to get people to buy into that. I think it's way too late for that. I think you've got to get it done. And then I don't even think he'll even think he'll even wait. FaceTime bragging. I think he understands it. I mean, you cannot not have been, he's been with the Bears and the Eagles. Big guys been through the mix. He understands all this. I don't get, I don't get that at all. Would the Carson Wentz trade stop you from drafting a quarterback in the first or second round

if you really loved that quarterback? No, no, not the, uh, the, the, um, the, the, problem with the first round is that if I draft the kid, then I really need him to be the guy in the first round, because if not I'm going to lose either way.

I'm on a one-year deal. If I'm wrong, I'm thinking like, it's one-year deal for me. So I need a receiver. I need a guy on the other side of Terry Terry. And I have to think that the way receivers are making $30 million now, you'll end up losing him. So I almost have to think now because of this enormous salaries that wide receivers are getting,

that there's a pretty good chance that you won't be able to keep scary. So I would definitely be looking for one of his old teammates at Ohio State to replace him. Because the kid from USC, I think, will be gone. And I think he's fantastic, too. But I think we've got to get a guy here that we know can play at the wide receiver. You don't think they're going to keep McClearn. I don't know how they can. If you're Terry's agent, you need to be bullwipped.

You know what these people are making now? Yeah, I get it. But they can tag him next year. Yeah, they can, but eventually, I'm just saying, it's like the Kirk Cousers deal. It's like, do you realize that we've lost two guys that, the pro bowlers, Kurt's a pro-bow guy, and Prince is a Hall of Famer?

and we basically got two bologna sandwiches. All I'm saying is that we do things others just don't do. I mean, I don't know how you predict. You're the best of that. I can't do it. I don't know how you predict anything they're going to do. I think it's going to be really interesting on McLaren. You know, Ron talking yesterday when, you know,

it was suggested that nobody wants to come here and they push back on that. Martin Mayhew did the same. But the McLaurin thing is going to be the real measuring stick. Because if his agent, and you're right, his agent should say, whoa, we've got to be blown away with an offer to sign an extension now. We're a year away from either being tagged or hitting free agency. And the tag is going to be $25 million. You know, I had somebody from PFF on the radio show that said they're going to be looking to pay them $20 million a year. I don't know if that's going to be enough for Terry at this point.

You know, I'm with you. So I think that's going to be. I'm with you. Yeah. It just happened. it didn't happen four months ago we wouldn't have said any of it this just happened yeah i mean did you think the cheetah would leave kansas city didn't it's a part of me that i'm going man i thought that was a match made in heaven andy homie and cheetah but it shows you now this is all economics

guys like us we're out of we're out of style because you can talk about winning you want nobody's concerned about. We're talking about making money. This is a financial position now. This is leverage moves. And it's just like the stadiums and everything that's going on right now. We're stuck in that nostalgic area that we really want to win.

We're dinosaurs. This is all about money. Just look at a guy. A guy right now has been accused of 22 cases of impropriations of improprieties at the very least. He's the highest paid

player in league history, and he only got to be guaranteed by the minute. Now, look, you're much better at this than I am. How on earth is that a message in the league meetings that all the millionaires are having right now, who have an exclusive

club, and until they have an African-American owner and part of that club, it's all win. It's all BS. And so that's the signal you're throwing out that a guy is not even eligible to play yet has the best contract in the history of the NFL and you go to league meetings and you don't settle that and we still don't know how long it why would he be suspended why are we suspended it for what well gudel certainly

the highest paid guy in league history and goddell certainly left open the possibility and the likelihood that the you know he has violated the personal conduct policy but yeah but why it's open air. You don't even, your own, are we, so is our, is our owner? Is he suspended? They just gave a guy a loan. I know. I talked about that in the open. I don't, the whole

is he suspended, isn't he? Did he get fine, didn't he? I'm tired of it. Just, you know, until and they're all, none of them are clear about this. I don't even think, you know, I mean, Ron told me on my show that he was in the facility, that he saw Dan around the facility. And then

Goodell saying yesterday, I don't even think he's been in the facility. What does that mean? I heard that. I mean, whatever. I mean, at this point, for me, it's going to be hard for me to ever have the passion level that I used to have until Dan's gone. Just not going to happen until he's gone. The stadium might end up in Richmond. So I'm thinking to myself. No, I'm serious. I know. I mean, we're like, he'll probably end up right where it's at. And, uh, but do you care? And like, What I've been saying is that at some point, if they keep this up, they need to go to Audi. And what they need to do, see, there you go again.

Well, I don't even know if they could sell out Audi. It's $20,000 there, right? Yeah, that's where it needs to go. That will we be downtown. That's our best chance to be downtown. That would be funny. We got to ask the soccer team if they'll share it with us. I'm serious.

It holds 20,000 people. I'm not so sure right now they could sell it out. But you know what? No, I think we could sell it out. At least it'd be all our people. It would be. Yeah, and it would be a raucous environment. It might be, I'll tell you what.

It'd be phenomenal. Well, I've always thought they should play one game a year back at RFK. It just because the nostalgia alone, you'd sell the building out. You'd pack it with 55,000 people. It'd be unbelievable. You could charge a lot of money for the tickets, and people would pay it because it would be kind of, you know, it would be this kind of an event. Forget about whether or not the team had a chance to win the game. Outy Field.

We'll stop on that. Doc Walker believes that they should reach out to the soccer team. What is the soccer team? The United, right? And what's the women's team? Is it the spirit? I think it's the spirit. Oh, spirit.

Oh, yeah, spirit. I think I got that one right. No, I'm just saying. Yeah. I was there for, you know, Clay Clarence had a suite for the XFL. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. It was a hell of a deal in the way. I never thought we would fit it, but now I never thought it would be the desert that it has become.

But I'm still hopeful, man. You're not going to, you act like you're out, you're not out. And I'm not out. I'm hopeful. But at some point, the talk has been chatter. They talk a lot. The chatter's got to cease. And we got some action.

And I want a middle linebacker. I don't want a conversion. I want a guy who plays middle linebacker, who played it in Pop Warner, who played it in college. You can't convert that position. You can't get there running a round block. Well, you agree that it's not Jamon Davis, right? At least they don't think it's Jamie Davis anymore.

Well, no, but Jamon never told him that. They projected him as something he'd never done. Cole Hulcombe, I love Cole. but I need London Fletcher type I need a middle linebacker Yeah How hard is that Well go out and pay Bobby Wagner

More money than anybody else is offering And I still don't think it would work out I don't think he'd come here Why? Why? Why wouldn't he come here? Well, you've already talked about that people don't want to come here I know it I know it I mean This is what you do This is what you do

You actually say nobody wants to come here And then I say it and you say it and you say well why And then you change your mind This is what you've been doing to me for years No no I'm not changed my mind I agree with you I agree with you. Bobby Wagner's not coming here. He's not, he, no.

No. Okay, so we can. No, no, they could overpay him. See, that's the problem. We have to overpay people to come here with before, but it's not anything new. Remember Clinton Porter, he coined the phrase, in his pocket straight. You know, Dan got your pocket straight. We were always, South East Jerome. He came here for money. But Dan was sending jets and,

They were sending, that was a money grab. Nobody talked about it. It was money. And it's okay. That's what it was. Let's just call it for what it was. The money grab. And now we can't do that.

We can't even do that. Patreon.com slash Doc Walker for Docs podcast with Sali. At Rick Doc Walker on Twitter. I will talk to you soon. Thank you, as always. Can I ask you one question? Yes.

Duke or Carolina. Well, you know I'm rooting for Carolina. People have said to me, you're long gone from the ACC. Why do you care? Because that's what's in me. That's my DNA. When Carolina went into Cameron Indoor on that final night a few weeks back,

that was awesome. It was awesome to see Kay look so distraught. I think Duke's going to win. I do, but I'm going to be rooting for Carolina. What do you think? Yeah, no, I'm not far from you on that. I just, the way Davis, the way they beat them in Cameron, and I think the Duke kid, like they started in the first period,

they're overwhelmed. This pressure on these children is unbelievable. Now, they responded. They have responded. And I'm not thinking that they're a little, I mean, they're not a charity case. They got five NBA first rounders, and it'll round into it. But the pressure is enormous. It reminds me of Wooden.

And that last season when he said, this is it for me. And they were playing in San Diego against Kentucky, the Wildcats. Kevin Grevy was on the squad. And I'll never forget how nerve-wracking that was. So I kind of relate to it a little bit as a, you know, a guy that was witnessing the Bruins to go through what is so far. freakish because they were playing at that highest level of perfection. And it's hard. So I'm interested.

I'm glad we get it. I'm not going to have a horse to race. I'm just glad we get to see it. Yeah. My next guest, we're going to talk about it because he covers Carolina and Duke basketball for the athletics. So I'm looking forward to that. All right.

Yes, he's good. That's good. We'll keep up to good work. You too. And please, try not to take so many days off. I don't like this new. Well, I was out. I was out in you.

You're never there. I was out in your hometown. I was out in your hometown. No, no, no, I know it. First of all, that's not true. I'm always here. I rarely take time off. You're like Johnny Carson.

Oh, bullshit. You know that's not true. You and Zabe, you and Zabe, I had to check the calendar each week to find out if you guys were in or out. Oh, my God. Oh, bullshit. Get out of here. See ya. You in for Kevin?

Are you in for Kevin again? Well, I do like when Jackson's in for me. I'll talk to you later, thanks. All right, later, brother. The biggest college basketball game in years, Saturday night in the Final Four, Duke and Carolina. Brendan Marks covers Carolina and Duke for the Athletic. I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. That's next right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

Saturday is Final Four Saturday, and I'm not sure there's been a more anticipated matchup in recent memory in college hoops than the nightcap. between Duke and North Carolina. Here to talk some final four with us is Brendan Marks. He covers college basketball, Duke and Carolina in particular for the athletic, as we say all the time with all of the athletic people. It's totally worth subscribing. I'm a subscriber for all of you Washington football fans, commanders fans, Ben Standing, everybody that covers the team, totally worth it.

Brendan's another really good writer for the athletic. You can follow him on Twitter. at Brendan R. Marks, he joins us right now. So let me just tell you that I am a Maryland guy, so a longtime, you know, ACC guy. And it's amazing to me, and I've known this, that Duke and Carolina have never faced each other in the tournament. And it would all, you know, there were multiple opportunities for it many years when they were both in the final four, but they never ended up playing in a final or in a semi-final. You cover the sport, you cover these two teams.

can you remember a game that will come with more hype and anticipation than this one? If there is one, and I don't know that there is, I would probably only go back about a month ago to Coach K's last game at Cameron. There was a lot of buzz for that one too. But, you know, other than that, it's hard to think of another game, like you mentioned in recent memory, where there has been as much buzz, as much hype, as much anticipation for not just the final result, but all the storyline surrounding it, right?

You talk about Coach Kay's career hanging in the balance, national championship birth on the line. Like, it is all there. So, no, this is going to be something I don't think that we've ever really seen in the sport before. Who knows if we'll ever see it again? And that's part of what makes Saturday such an exciting proposition. You know, I think I said yesterday on the show

as, you know, a lifelong, you know, in my blood ACC guy. I've gotten used to the Big Ten, although I don't love it, wish we could go back to the old days of an eight, or nine-team ACC. But, you know, as great as the ACC's been, I think I have this right. Caroline and Virginia played in the 81 Final Four.

Duke and Georgia Tech played in a championship game, and then Duke and Maryland played in that famous 2001 season where they played four times and they played in the Final Four in Minneapolis. There haven't been any other, I don't think, Final Four ACC matchups, but it's happened a lot with Big East teams. It's happened a lot with Big Ten teams over the years. Kind of amazing given that it is the most successful basketball conference in history that this will be just the fourth matchup in the tournament between ACC teams.

Yeah, I mean, if you want to, you know, if you want to include the Big East ACC overlap that is Syracuse, then, you know, you can go ahead and throw, I think it's 2016 or 17 in there. Syracuse, Virginia. North Carolina, Matt. Oh, yes. Right. So you can throw that one in there too, but no, I mean, and frankly, I think that's sort of, you know, in line with something that Coach Kay said yesterday, and he was asked, you know, how surprised are you that this hasn't happened before? And basically his response was, I am, but also at the same time, when you're talking about teams that are regularly on the one or the two line, like the bracket is intentionally set up so those teams are not meeting at any point that would come short of really the final four. That's right. And there have been a lot of years where, you know, it's been one and then the other. You know, I think you go back.

and you look at least in like sort of triangle history of these two teams like Duke's there in 15, North Carolina is there in 16, 17. You know, so it's always been, you know, by a year apart, they've been so close. Obviously, 91 was, you know, the last time that they were both actually in the final four. But, you know, it speaks to the ACC. And I know everybody said the ACC was down this year, but having two of the last four, you're going to, you know, have a slam dunk contender in the title game. Like, in a bad year in the ACC, I think the conference execs would take.

that every time. Yeah, it's a really good point, too. Also, you know, until recent years, you know, conference, when they expanded to 68, they didn't set up the tournament to where conference teams could face each other until at the very least that Sweet 16. And I think for a while, it was the Elite 8. So the game earlier this month at Cameron Endor, and for, you know, a Maryland guy, I gushed over this. I mean, I can't remember the last time that I was so excited watching a game that didn't involve my own team, but to see the Carolina comeback and to see them destroy Kay and Duke and Cameron and Dore, I think there were a lot of longtime ACC fans that were actually rooting for Carolina that night.

And I'm wondering if you have found that Carolina, long-time Carolina fans, where they put that win? Because I heard from a couple of them that said, look, we've won national championships, but that win on that night was as satisfying as any they've had in forever. Where did you get a sense on where the Carolina fan base came in on that win over Duke on K's final night at Cameron Indoor? No, I think you're spot on.

You know, I had a lot of folks and, you know, friends of mine who I know, my neighbors even, who, you know, they're coming outside in the morning after the game, and while I'm out there getting my mail, they're screaming, this is the best win we've ever had. People were so jazzed about it, and that I think is why, you know, I'll be interested to see if that sentiment holds after Saturday, regardless of result, because obviously if North Carolina is able to win on Saturday, you know, the Trump card of having beaten Coach K in his last game at Cameron sort of gets replaced by beating Coach K in his last game ever and sending him to retirement. So that one would take on more significant than that way. And on the flip side of Duke wins, all of a sudden Duke's beating you in the final four to go to a title like, how sweet is a one. a one-off regular season win at that point. But no, for the time being, certainly, I think North Carolina fans look at that as, you know,

arguably the most significant regular season win in program history. You know, they made T-shirts, they made buttons, they made banners, all that sort of good stuff. It is a huge game, will always say a huge game, but I do think that Saturday, one way or another, is going to sort of change the way we look back at that one. That'll be a fascinating thing if they win, they go to the championship, they win it. I still think doing it in Cameron Indoor in shocking fashion too, right? Because nobody expected it. They were an 11, 12-point underdog in that game.

And the run they had in the second half was amazing. And it was just stunning to everybody that was in that building. I mean, it was a star-studded event, you know, that particular night. And probably one of the hardest tickets sports has seen in a long time to obtain. Brendan, how close was Carolina to not making the tournament altogether? I think, you know, before that last game against Duke, obviously when you're able to beat a team of that caliber, that was sort of the cherry on top of North Carolina's tournament resume.

Like, after that game, there was no doubt that UNC was getting in. But no, I mean, even in the week leading up to that, like, things were close. And I think you've got to go back and you look at, like, you know, middle of February, North Carolina loses at home to pick. it in a game that was not ever really competitive. You know, I'm looking here sitting at it right now. Pitt is 195 in Ken Palm's ratings. Obviously, one of the worst teams in the ACC this year.

Like, that loss in and of itself almost jeopardized North Carolina tournament chances. But, you know, Credit to Huber Davis, he and his team came back, won their last five regular season games that sort of put any questions to bed. But no, I mean, as late as mid-February, there were legitimate concerns that this team was not going to make it, and if it was going to make it, it was going to have to do so by going on the ACC to the ACC championship game. Again, the Duke win kind of changed the equation a little bit, but no, it still makes what is happening right now even more remarkable because this team, you know, for much

of the season, was sort of left as an afterthought. What were the thoughts about Hubert Davis's first year when, you know, they lost a pit, you know, at home, a terrible team? and at that point, you know, we're potentially in a weak league, at least, you know, per, you know, the net rankings and everything else, in trouble. Were people wondering whether or not it was the right higher at that point or not? Yes, absolutely. The Hubert haters were awfully loud. They were for most of the seasons, to be honest, because you go like, okay, I think there was obviously some concern just in the first place because you were placing a legend. And there's going to be nerves about, okay, the guy after a Hall of Fame or like the shoes you're stepping into are gigantic.

And in the case of Hubert Davis, he was stepping into a situation with largely the same roster that last year delivered Roy Williams his first ever first round NCAA tournament law. So, you know, coming into it, I think there were questions about, okay, what is he actually going to be able to do with this roster? And then every time, seemingly through the first three months of the season, that North Carolina played a good team, Purdue, Tennessee, Kentucky, you know, Notre Dame, whoever it may be. It wasn't just the North Carolina was losing, like, it was getting blown out, you know, back-to-back losses to Miami and Wake Forest by 20-plus points. That's the first time that's happened since 2001, 2002. So, yeah, absolutely.

People were apprehensive, I would say, about Hubert and about the, you know, the long-term staying power he might have had. But, you know, I have a good friend who went to North Carolina who sent me a text after they beat St. Peter's and said the Hubert haters are awfully quiet right now. And I can't think of a better way to sum that up. Boy, there was, you know, the post-game interview on the floor with, I forget which reporter it was from CBS after the St. Peter's game. There was so much emotion from Hubert Davis.

I mean, he was really, you could tell that, I mean, he talked about this was so great for the kids, but it really, I got this sense that this was a huge load off of his shoulders. Like, even in a lead eight run, they couldn't lose. to St. Peters with a chance to face Duke in the final four. Yeah, and I think the thing about Hubert Davis that has endeared him so much to the fan base and to his players, to be fair, is that emotion. Like, he has always been an emotional guy. You know, he told us at his introductory press conference, he was pretty quiet as an assistant,

but the times when he would chime in the most, when Roy Williams was head coach, was when guys were upset or when guys needed some emotional sort of, I don't know if you call it, counseling or guidance or whatever. But that was when he always stepped in. So now you've seen him after games. When he's mad, he is mad. And when he's happy, he's literally crying tears of joy. And it's the same sort of emotion that I think you have seen from North Carolina's head coach

probably over time just presented it a different way. But no, that sincerity is 100% true. Everybody who I have spoken to or heard from who knows Hubert Davis since he got the job has said, this is the guy, you know, this is honestly him. This is not an act. This is the sincerity that he's all about. And obviously, when you see how overjoyed he is and literally move to tears for his players for this moment,

like, you know, how can you not get behind that if you're a fan of this team or if you're a player playing for this guy? We'll get to Duke in a moment. We're talking with Brendan Marks. He covers Carolina and Duke in college basketball for the athletic. How about the emergence of Armando Baycott? I mean, first of all, I think if I'm not. mistaken that he was very close to winning the ACC player of the year.

I know it went to Williams from Wake Forest, but he was right there in the voting. I mean, did people really see that coming from him prior to this year that he would, look, he was a volume rebounder always, but my God, did he elevate his game, especially down the stretch? Talk about him for a minute. Yeah, yeah, he absolutely elevated his game. And I think, you know, honestly, just given the way that North Carolina's team was made up his first two seasons, like this jump was almost expected, but maybe not to this level. So, you know, you're talking about a guy who last year, for example, he was splitting time in the front court with three other pretty good players. You know,

Dayron Sharp, who went on to be a first-round pick for the Brooklyn Net, Walker Kessler, who very well might be the national defensive players year at Auburn, and Garrison Brooks, who was a senior starter for North Carolina, a thousand-point score, and a guy who was really entrenched with the program. So Armando was splitting time with all three of those last season, and so maybe the consistency wasn't quite there. You know, he wasn't seeing the same number of minutes, wasn't seeing the same number of opportunities. Even when he was in the lineup,

he was often closing time with another big man, as was customary for Roy Williams' system. Like, Huber Davis has sort of upended that. Obviously, Kessler and Brooks and Sharp were all gone. Leaving Armando is sort of the only true conventional big on the roster. And so Huber Davis has planted him at the rim, and he's let a bunch of guys over and around him. He said, Armando, you're cleaning up the trash and you're our interior score.

And he has responded in full, most double doubles in the country. He has North Carolina single season rebounding record. Like, you know, if he comes back for a senior season, which he obviously is able to do, he saw his eligibility. Like, he will end up as the number one all-time rebatter in North Carolina program history. So it's been an unfathomable jump for him. But, you know, a kid who came in as a five-star really had to mature over time. and now you're seeing sort of the fruit of that effort.

Who is the all-time leading rebrander? Hansborough. Yeah, Hansborough. So if he comes back next year, he'll be one of the preseason favorites to be the player of the year, certainly in the league itself. So let's shift to Duke for a moment, because that loss to Carolina may have benefited both teams that night. Are you a subscriber to that theory that it gave Carolina the confidence to make the run that they've made, even though they got destroyed by Virginia Tech, you know, in the ACC tournament in Brooklyn.

And it was a bit of a wake-up call for Duke. Do you believe that that was that night, you know, a huge benefit to Duke or not? Yeah, I believe it more on the North Carolina side of things than the Duke side of things. Because I think that that was the first game in a stretch of four games. So starting with that Carolina game, going through the ACC championship loss of Virginia Tech, all four of those games, and Coach Kay has said this, so I'm not saying anything new here, but that was an awful defensive team for those four games. I mean, couldn't stop anybody.

And the 94 points that North Carolina scored on a game at Cameron. Could not stop the pick and roll. Could not stop the pick and roll at all. Right. And that's still the most points that Duke is allowed in the season. So the fact that that continued on for a few more games, I sort of look at that game as a one-off, honestly, because Duke had already clinched the regular season title. wasn't necessarily playing for anything.

All the pressure was on Duke to send K off with this storybook. There's 100 former players in attendance. ESPN's got 250 camera people there. It was bonkers. And so I think that, you know, the thing that I think was more of a wake-up call was probably the ACC tournament loss to Virginia Tech. Because that was like, okay, look, you guys are not even good enough to be Virginia Tech right now with the way you're defending.

We have to get back to our basics on that side of the ball. And obviously Duke has been able to do that, and that's the reason they're in the final four. But I look at that Virginia Tech game as probably contributing more to their second half swing here in March than maybe that Carolina won where I really just think the pressure of the situation got to the gut. You know, it's interesting about that. You're so right about how bad they were defensively. But there was a stretch during the season. They played Notre Dame on like a Monday night, you know, in South Bend.

And Notre Dame couldn't score. And then they played Carolina at the Ding Dome because I remember that game. I was on Carolina plus a short number, and I was like, oh, my God, Carolina can't score. And they did play decent defense for a stretch there in the middle of the season. And then it caved. I mean, Carolina got to the rim without any resistance in that final game. Talk about what this is like from, you know, a research triangle, Raleigh Durham, Chapel Hill. the whole state, you know, what's the state like right now getting ready for this game?

Tense as hell. Everybody is on edge. Everybody is so jazzed. I mean, you know, there's a lot of folks who I've heard from both on the Carolina side and on the Duke side who have said, look, I'm not even going to watch this game. I can't. You know, like it'll be too stressful. Like, I don't have the necessary blood pressure medicine to watch.

The thing is, like, you know, for North Carolina, fans, that last win at Cameron was the Trump card. We beat K in his final game at Cameron. Like, that doesn't change. And so I think if you're looking at this from that perspective, and a lot of people are, it's like, okay, if we can do that and we can then, you know, send Coach K into retirement with a loss and deprive him the opportunity to play for a six national championship, like, that's it. Like, those are the two Trump cards in the rivalry. And now you would have them both. So I think from the North Carolina side of things, that's where it is. And from the Duke side of things, it's like, okay, we did let that one get away. Now we have

to get this one back just to keep things level and also to make sure that we have a chance to send K off the right way for this time. You know, we messed up the last time. We couldn't get it done. Here's our opportunity to sort of rectify the situation. So the state is, it's on fire. Like people are so stressed. I can't imagine that this game is going to be any anything short of the most watched college game, you know, in the last decade. You know, everybody in the state will be watching that game on Saturday. It is the only thing anybody around here is talking about right now, and, you know, for good reason, too. You know, it really would be.

It would be, I mean, shutting down Cameron Indoor on Kay's night, not shutting down Cameron Indoor, but knocking Kay off in his final game at Cameron Indoor. I mean, for me, let me just tell you, Shane Batti, a senior night when Juan Dixon went in, there and had 31 was one of the most satisfying wins as a Maryland fan of all time. And it was just that feeling, you know, the rivalry stuff is just great. There's nothing like it. And then to also then beat them in the final four would be the ultimate. Think about all that Dean Smith and Roy Williams have accomplished. And this year, you could argue if you're a Carolina fan, the two most memorable wins in the same month happened in the history of the program. It's

crazy. With that said, explain to everybody who don't know the answer to this, because I do. Just how Duke really, like Carolina, in terms of basketball fans in the state, you know, it's nine out of ten are heels fans compared to Duke's state or wake fans. Kind of give the percentage of breakdown in the state. Yeah, it's a fascinating local and state marketplace. You know, here's the way I always explain it to people. If you're looking at the Duke, North Carolina and throw NC State in there, too, because all three programs are a hop skipped away, if you're looking at all three of those programs from the perspective of the triangle, which is, you know, Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill, NC State's the number one fan base, North Carolina second, and Duke is a distant third. If you're looking at it from a statewide perspective, it is easily North Carolina first, followed by NC State. And again, Duke a distant third.

But if you're talking about it from a national perspective, Duke is the clear number one, followed by North Carolina, then NC State is the distant third. So depending on which part of the market you're looking at, it sort of changes like the profile of the fans. But no, certainly, you know, I think even, you know, I live in Durham. I live 15 minutes from Duke, even walking around my neighborhood, like on my little cul-de-sac, I think five of the six houses that have flags out are from North Carolina. So, like, it is still, you know, a Tar Hill state, it's the state university, it's the public university, you know, Duke has obviously gained more favor here locally since Mike Schochevsky has come in and elevated the basketball program, but, you know, it is not, it is not like it's an even split in any way. There are certainly five Tar Hill fans, at least locally,

to every one Duke fan that there is. Yeah, it's also, I mean, it's the size of the universities. It's, you know, Duke's student body is typically made up of a lot of, you know, big East Coast city kids, you know, Boston, New York, Philly, D.C. You know, it's not, it's not apples to apples. But in this market, you know, for many years when Maryland and Georgetown were both really, really strong programs, you know, Maryland's fan following was five to one over Georgetown's locally, in part because Maryland had, you know, a 25 to 30,000, you know, student body in Georgetown was this small little, you know, Catholic private school. But nationally, Georgetown was a much bigger brand, you know, so there are comps to that here locally. You did surprise me, though, with one thing that you said.

So in the Raleigh-Durham Chapel Hill area, you'd actually say that NC State's got the most fans? Oh, easily. Because all of those NC State fans just settle right in the triangle. So, you know, especially in Raleigh, with Raleigh being the size that it is comparatively to Durham and Chapel Hill. Like, yeah, there are NC State fans everywhere. And but then obviously, like I said, the bigger the scale, the lower that per capita becomes because they're also concentrated in the triangle. You know, I bring up NC State and I brought up NC State a lot. By the way, have you watched the ACC Tournament documentary on the ACC Network?

I have watched pieces of it. I've watched certain episodes. I have not sat down and watched the whole thing, but I'm hoping to after the tournament's over. It's so well done. It's really well done. Anyway, I've used the NC State history of coaches as a bit of an example for the Maryland situation. You know, Mark Turgeon and the school parted ways. Turgent, you know, kind of left, decided to leave the athletic director, wanted them out.

And, you know, it's always a be careful what you wish for situation. You know, NC states won national championships. Maryland's won a national championship. They both have tremendous basketball tradition. But I still don't think, even though Mark Gottfried had, you know, some good years, you know, with our former athletic director, Debbie Yao down there, I still, and I'll never forget when they moved on from Herb Sendeck. I mean, the guy had been to like five tournaments in a row.

And it was kind of a be careful what you wish for and don't be, you know, don't be delusional as to what you are. because NC State's not Carolina. They're not Duke. They're not Kentucky. They're not Kansas. Maryland isn't either. They're in that next tier, if not the third tier, of kind of programs.

And I've always used Sendek as an example. I don't think NC State's ever been the same since they let Sendek leave. I certainly haven't been as competitive. And I mean, now, you know, you're talking about a guy in Kevin Keith who made the NCAA tournament his first season, you know, was one of the many coaches who, got sort of screwed over by the pandemic. His team probably would have made it during that 20-21 tournament that never was.

But no. Like, and now he hasn't made the NCAA tournament since his first year with not his players. And it's, you know, everybody's sort of looking around going, all right, well, when is this thing getting fixed? And, you know, yesterday, two of his guys entered the NBA draft process, one of them under the transfer portal.

So, yeah, I think that point that you make is an astute one. Like, you have to understand where you are. You can't be delusional about your status. And, you know, at the risk of, agitating an NC state fan base that absolutely doesn't need anyone else to agitate it. You know, you are not at that level. And I think to some extent a lot of NC state fans are still living in the, you know, the time that the before times, if you will, the 80s to, you know, the 2000s,

but really the last 20-ish years of NC State basketball haven't been to that same level. And you have to look in the mirror and ask yourself, okay, why? How do we get back there? And, you know, for right now, for NC State fans, at least, there's a lot more. a lot more questions than answers. Yeah, I mean, it's a great basketball school with great basketball tradition, but it's been, you know, basically we're going on 30-plus years since Jimmy V. You know, so it's with Maryland, we're, you know, we're now at 10 years since the Gary Williams era.

And Mark Turgeon went to six out of seven years of the NCAA tournament, you know, his last seven years. He was the third winningest coached in the Big Ten behind Izzo and Matt Painter when he was there, but he wasn't good enough for Maryland fans. Hopefully Kevin Willard will be. I think they hired a good coach. We'll see. Thank you for doing this. Oh, last question, actually.

Give me your pick Saturday night. Yeah, this is tough. I've been going back and forth. You know, I think North Carolina is playing its best basketball right now. I think Duke's playing its best basketball right now. So for me, I think back to the last two matchups, and I think you kind of almost have to toss them out the window because both these teams are so different than they were when they previously met. I think at the end of the day, I think that Duke probably has a better player-by-player matchup with the Tar Heels than North Carolina does.

And I also think that one of the things that you saw in the first game could come back into play, and that's foul trouble against Armando Baycott, sort of wrecking things for North Carolina. He is the guy who cannot get into trouble. But in Duke, you've got three guys in the front court, Powell Ben Carroll, Mark Williams, and Theo John, all of whom can get in his face and be aggressive. And, again, listen, maybe this is oversimplifying, and I'm no math major.

But, you know, those three guys have 15 fouls, and Armando Baycox got five. And so I think that if Duke can get Armando into a little bit of foul trouble, I think that sort of forces North Carolina to play some guys that's not as comfortable with it's some guys that maybe don't normally see as much time as they would have. to, and I think that could be the swing in a game of this magnitude. So very, very narrowly, I think that I'm going with Duke, but as I have learned from many

iterations of this rivalry, anything can happen. No result would surprise me on Saturday, but if I have to predict, then I'll give Duke the narrow victory. I lied. I got one more question. Are Carolina fans already talking about the whistle that, you know, we all, as ACC fans know that Kay typically gets in the biggest spots? I mean, are they already wondering what kind of whistle there's going to be?

Because let's face it, Duke in the title game, in Kay's final game, is exactly what CBS wants, ultimately. I mean, they're thrilled with what they're getting Saturday night. This is an all-timer. But their preference would be for Duke to move forward. So I'm certainly not suggesting conspiracy because I don't believe in those conspiracies, but we all, as longtime ACC people know, that Kay has gotten the benefit of a friendly whistle on the biggest spots over the years. Is there discussion about

that down there? I think there's more discussion about the way that some of North Carolina's games have already been officiated in the tournament, to be honest. Like, you know, you think about that Baylor game and Brady Manick getting ejected. I don't know that North Carolina fans are fully past that. You know, and thinking that that was, you know, too harsh or an overreaction to what I, you know, to what I personally thought probably didn't deserve to rise above a flag or one. But, So I think that's the more of the conversation, just that the officiating hasn't been consistent throughout the season, obviously hasn't been consistent throughout the tournament. There's a good group going to the final four, but still, like, you just have this thinking feeling, I think, on both sides, to be honest with you, that some pivotal call isn't going to be officiated properly and it's going to end up costing you. But, you know, North Carolina fans are all these superstitious about that sort of thing.

Heck, Duke fans are too. But, you know, I definitely do think that the way the game is officiated is going to have a huge outcome, which, you know, you know, unfortunately is what it is, but that's the reality of the situation. I can't wait for it. I really can't. This is, you know, for this sport, which I love, it's been a long time coming. It is big for the sport, I think, overall. As you said, I can't imagine there's going to be a more watched game in the last decade than Saturday night's game between Carolina and Duke.

Brendan, thank you so much. Follow Brendan on Twitter at Brendan R. Marks. He writes for the athletic. I really appreciate the time. Absolutely. Thanks so much and enjoy the games. Hey, Brendan, that was awesome. Perfect. Yeah, I'll run it on the podcast and then I'll run it on my radio show tomorrow morning as well, some of it. So I appreciate it. Enjoy it.

Awesome, of course. Yeah, I appreciate you. I'll talk to you. Take care. Bye. Brendan was great. That was an enjoyable conversation. Thanks to him. Thanks to Doc. Back tomorrow.