The Kevin Sheehan Show - Washington Football Encyclopedia Style

Episode Date: September 6, 2026

Kevin with a special Labor Day Sunday podcast which includes a quick reaction to the Michigan-Western Michigan game as well as a few other College Football Week 1 thoughts. And then author, biographer, and Redskins' historian Mike Richman joined Kevin to talk about his new book, Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia-Redskins & Commanders. For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Download the PrizePicks app today and use code SHEEHAN to get $150 instantly in Lineups if you win your first $5 Lineup! If you want to try Momentous Signature Spec Creatine, head to livemomentous.com and use code SHEEHAN for up to 35% off your entire first order. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. On this special Labor Day weekend edition of the podcast, Mike Richmond is my guest. Mike is a longtime author, biographer, historian of our football team. I've had Mike on the show a few times previously. The most recent was when he put out a book on George Allen.

His most recent book is an update to his Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia that he wrote back in 2007, which covered the team's history through the 2006 season. Now he's got an update to that encyclopedia, which includes seasons 2007 through the 2024 season. But per usual with Mike, the conversation went very long because we got into a number of things. the name, the logo, a lot of history from the 70s, 80s, et cetera. But he also covered very well the last 18 years of the franchise in which we've had a lot. We had, you know, the tragedy with Sean Taylor, of course, which led to the clownish Jim Zorn era, which led to the Shanahan, RG3 thing, which led to the Kirk Cousins franchise tag, which led to a Rivera 2020.

very odd season with COVID. And then of course, 2024, which came out of nowhere and turned out to be the first legitimate deep playoff run in 33 years. So Mike Richmond will be my guest

here shortly and you'll hear our entire conversation, which was just too long to get into Friday's show. One thing real quickly, since I'm in here on a Sunday following college football's week number one, and we'll get Mike here pretty quickly, but I just thought I'd weigh in on the Michigan Western Michigan game

last night. Truly in the moment, it seemed like one of the all-time hose jobs in the history of college football, not an exaggeration. If you didn't pay attention yesterday and you haven't seen what happened at the big house, Michigan was a 28-point favorite over Western Michigan. they got dominated in this game, and yet they were only down 12 to 7 with less than 40 seconds to go. They were able to get the ball out to midfield with eight seconds left and then ran a Hail Mary play in which Bryce Underwood, their sophomore quarterback, who was the most highly recruited quarterback a year ago, initially committed to LSU. Michigan came up with an insane amount of money. I think Dave Portnoy from Barstool had something to do with that. But I didn't think he was very good as a freshman.

I thought he was horrible last night. He throws the first attempt at a Hail Mary out of the end zone. It had no opportunity to succeed. And it looked like very clearly there were zeros on the clock ending the game. And Western Michigan was celebrating at midfield. And Michigan looked like they knew they had lost the game. But there was replay at work in which the Big Ten officiating crew and the Big Ten replay review team ended up putting one second back onto the clock allowing one more snap for Michigan. And on that next snap, Bryce Underwood threw a 47-yard Hail Mary touchdown pass to J.J. Buchanan to stun Western Michigan 13 to 12 on a 1st,

walk off. Now, the TV recording clearly, the live TV on NBC clearly showed zeros before anybody touched the football that would have ended the play. The Big Tenge review in replay, and I saw an actual replay on ESPN this morning, which included the actual conversation that was going on and exactly what they were looking at. Apparently, they were looking at a different clock than the one that was on the NBC screen, and they believed that the ball was touched by a player who was legally out of bounds, which would have immediately ended the play with still one second left on the clock. The Mid-American Conference, which is where Western Michigan resides, they put out a statement

essentially admitting that what the Big Ten gave them was proof that there should have been a second left on the clock. The commissioner John Steinbrecker said that the conference and school contacted the Big Ten office, seeking clarification on the review and were provided with an explanation along with video and audio that confirmed it. And then Steinbrecker, again, the Mack Commissioner thanked the Big Ten for its prompt response. So there you go. Am I skeptical? I am a little skeptical, but I also don't know that the Big Ten didn't have. a different clock and the accurate clock, and maybe NBC's was off by a bit.

But I will tell you this, Michigan looked horrible last night, and Bryce Underwood, this incredible five-star headed to LSU, then changes his mind and goes to Michigan. I just, I didn't see it last year with him, and I certainly did not see it last night at all. in the game he was 12 of 22 for 170 one one touchdown the last play of the game had a terrible pick at the end of the first half that he was so lucky did not get returned for a pick six because the defender that picked it off just barely stepped out of bounds after he picked it off but western michigan i mean they dominated the football game they had a 40 to 20 time of possession advantage like people are uh michigan fans and i I actually had one of them in my home last night watching this game with my son, one of my son's best friends.

And we're watching it. And he said, we can't get off the field defensively. And I'm like, that's the bigger story than Bryce Underwood stinks. Western Michigan, they were able to convert over and over again on third down. They were eight of like 16 or 17, something like that. and they didn't score a touchdown, but they kicked four field goals in Michigan. You know, just, I was surprised. I think anybody would have been surprised.

The 28, four touchdown favorite. The Big Ten had two four touchdown plus favorites this weekend that almost went down. Rutgers did to UMass on Thursday night, and Michigan nearly did to Western Michigan last night. I was very impressed with LSU and Lane Kiffin's debut. I'd also be very concerned if I'm a Clemson fan. Week one of college football, similar to the NFL and that it can be very misleading and oftentimes is. In college football, there are no joint practices, no preseason games, no any kind of preseason except for practice. And so a lot of, you know, listening to, I think it was Lane Kiffin, say, after the game,

you really don't know what you have until you get out in the field. You can think you know what you have, but you're proved wrong. wrong a lot, but they were really impressive. Clemson, this appears to be a make or break season for Davosweeney. It would be for me if I were a Clemson fan. What else from yesterday? I continue to be somewhat unimpressed overall with Dante Moore, the quarterback from Oregon, who went back to Oregon, got paid big money to go back.

His numbers were great. Oregon struggled against Boise and held on for a seven-point lead. The Terps, you know, had what they expected last night. It's a very easy win over, you know, a much inferior talent-wise. Hampton team, 62 to nothing. They'll play at Yukon next week. And then week three, they'll play Virginia Tech. September 19th in College Park, a night game.

James Franklin, his team won its opener 73 to 3 yesterday in Blacksburg. over VMI. And then they have next week old Dominion, good team out of that Sunbelt Conference, but it could be a 2-0 Maryland, 2-0 Virginia Tech. Not a big game on the national landscape. Trust me, I'm not suggesting that. But a big game for the two schools in the moment with Franklin trying to rebuild Virginia Tech and Loxley needing a seven-win plus kind of a season. And that's the opportunity, and it will be in week three for Maryland. And that could be a very interesting matchup for sure. Smell test yesterday, 3 and 0.

Yes, Tarleton State got it done. They not only covered, they won the game outright. And then Penn State and Iowa were easy winners. I've got Florida State Monday night, nothing tonight, but Florida State Monday night, plus the three against SMU is my last pick for the first smell test. weekend of the year. All right, let's get to, I think, for many of you, this will be a very enjoyable conversation. And I know for others who aren't big Skins fans or longtime Skins fans, you might find it interesting. There's a lot in there that I think you will find interesting. But for you

of a certain generation, Mike is a true historian, and we had a nice conversation. So we'll get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Football is finally back, guys, and prize picks is bringing out their best offer yet. New users who sign up will get $150 in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. That's right, if you win your first $5 lineup, you'll get $150 in lineups. Prize picks is my go-to daily fantasy sports app, and it's the best way to win real money this football season. It's so easy. You simply pick between two and seven.

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All right. Joining me right now is Mike Richmond. We've had Mike on the show before. In fact, the last time we had Mike on the show, he had just written the book about George Allen, the Redskins coach from 1971 through 1977. It was called George Allen, a football life. We had a great conversation about George Allen in those years during really the return of winning football to Washington. And now he has a book out called Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders. It's actually an update on his original Washington, Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia book written back in 2007.

He's also got a book coming out in 2028 on Sunny Jurgensen. It's great to have Mike back on the show. So Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia Redskins and Commanders, you didn't include Washington football team in the title. I guess it was too long. It was absolutely too long, Kevin. By the way, thank you very much for that. wonderful introduction. Yeah, Washington

football team was too long. Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia Redskins and Commanders. I thought that encompassed everything. Yeah. And my publisher agreed with me, and you cannot leave out the Redskins. Obviously,

the first 90 years of the franchise, they were known as the Redskins. So if you're going to discuss the history of the team, you have to refer to the Redskins in the title, and of course, throughout the book. And today, for that matter, I'm sure you're aware of this. I mean, I cringe when I see former Redskins players such as Joe Bisman, John Riggins, Larry Brown,

referred to his commanders. So, but, um, it makes me throw up in my mouth, to be honest with you. And I was going to ask you how irritating. Look, when, when we went through this in 2020 and then with the unveiling, the very awkward and really disorganized unveiling of the commander's name and new uniforms in February of 2022, you know, I think there was some fear that Redskins was essentially going to be erased from the historical conversation about the team and even NFL films would figure out a way or ESPN would figure out a way. I don't think it's been, you know, erased as much as people sounded the

alarm bell about it. But when I hear, like you just said, when I hear or see written, you know, about the 1991 commanders, you know, or referring to them as something other than the Redskins, that to me is just so silly. Right, right. It's unacceptable. And in terms of other sources referring to the team as the commanders from years back, NFL.com, of all places, refers to the history of the players from years back as commanders.

It's embarrassing. Embarrassing. Quarterback for the commandant. It's incredibly embarrassing, yes. So, yeah. But I felt it was time. I piggybacked back on the 2024 season in terms of deciding to update the encyclopedia,

and like you said, which had originally been published in 2007. So we were looking at about 20 years until it came out again, this season, of course, nearly 20 years. So I first, first of the first, looked at the 2024 season. I mean, I said, you know, great year they went to the NFC championship game. We're going to piggyback on this and see if they keep rolling, but, you know, unfortunately, they felt flat on their face last season. But in terms of the Encyclopedia, though, I think

it's evergreen, and it's, people can always refer to it, not just for what's going on in current years, but what happened in past years with the franchise. And I think people want to know that. I want to get to the book here, but because we started with the name, and it is an absolute still, especially with my audience, it has been for years. It's still a hot button topic. I mean, I've said this before. I mean, when they're not playing games, I could probably talk about the name every day and not lose audience and probably gain some audience. I'll be honest with you. I've gotten a little bit tired. It's gotten a little bit tedious. for me, but I'm still very passionate about the Redskins and about, you know, the loss of the name and the new name. I personally, you know, I don't think it's ever coming back. I'm curious as to what you think. Part of it is because I've talked to various people. And I don't think the league will allow it. I think the league's biggest sponsors that essentially say that horse left the barn, that toothpaste left the toothpaste holder. And we're not putting it back. What do you think about the current state of the current name and the possibility of bringing back the old name or, at the very least, Mike, the old logo and incorporating some of the Native American imagery back into, you know, what we have as branding?

Which they are already doing. I mean, as we speak, we are in a period right now where the. commanders organization is recognizing the team's Native American tradition, such as this year, they're going to be unveiling these new uniforms with more of a burgundy and gold look, and they have the spear on the black helmet, the spear that was very similar to the spear on the helmet in the 1960s. And I'm sure you're aware, they sold out of all the Redskins merchandise in their online store. And there's also a,

on the third floor of the stadium currently, there's an exhibit recognizing Walter Blackie Wetzel, the man who presented the idea for the logo to George Allen in 1972. So I am going to say that I'm cautiously optimistic that the name will come back. I think first, if anything comes back, it's going to be the logo.

The logo, it's an innocent, image and it was on the helmet for nearly 50 years, nearly a half century. And it's just, it's not going to offend anybody. I mean, it was Chief John Two Guns White Cap, who was a leader in, um, uh, for, uh, Native American rights issues in the early 20th century. I mean, it's just totally innocent. I don't see why that can't come back. Uh, in terms of the name, I'm just, like I said, cautiously optimistic, holding out hope. Maybe they, they, will do it in conjunction with the launch of the new stadium in 2030. Is that a wishcast on your part, or do you know anything with respect to that that may

make it actually a reality come 2030? All I know is what I'm seeing and what they're doing today in terms of recognizing, honoring the Native American tradition from the past. And I think that this momentum is going to continue. and so and even the Redskins marching band, a member of the Redskins marching band, he asked me to ask the team if they would invite the marching band to appear this season. And I think there's a strong possibility of that. So, you know, one step at a time, let's see what happens. I think it's a wish on my part.

I'll be honest with you, but we're seeing the momentum right now. I'm not, you know, crossing off the list. I mean, I think it's the wish of the majority of people who at least used to call themselves hardcore fans. You and I both know that, you know, the Snyder years, no doubt, eroded a big part of the fan base. And then the loss of the name eroded it further. And we'll see what happens with a new generation, a younger generation, a super talented quarterback and a different ownership group, which obviously had to happen, you know, at some point if this thing was ever going to be resuscitated and approach what it was like when you and I remember what it was like in the 70s, 80s, 90s, et cetera.

I hope to. I don't think it will, but I hope it will. You know, with respect to the logo, my only, like you and I both know, and people that follow this, there's never been anything, anything controversial. about the Blackie Wetzel logo from 72 on. No one's ever referred to it as insensitive or any racist or anything else. The only thing I would say is we all want to see it on the helmet, but would it actually tie in to the existing brand, the commanders,

or would it be more of a disconnect? I don't know about you, Mike. I'm thrilled that these uniforms are back. and that I watched the team even in the preseason and we'll watch them this year and moving forward, and it'll look more like our team on the field. But I wonder about if the logo were to come back, would it be planted on the helmet? I think it would work, Kevin. I think that it's a bit of a stretch to say there's too much of a disconnect between the name commanders and the logo.

I think it would work. Okay. They would figure out some way. So it's all part of the Native American package. I think it will work. And I forgot to mention that the lyrics of the fight song now include Braves on the War Pats on the War Pats. I mean, that's back on the Pipe. So that needs to be mentioned as part of this conversation as well.

I mean, in terms of recognizing the Native American tradition of the team, which so many people want. And, of course, the ultimate would be the name coming back. I'm just going to hold out home. Maybe I'm being, you know, too overly optimistic or whatever. I know no one in particular that said it's coming back. I mean, I can't. I know inside sources that have told me that, but I'm just looking at the trend right now,

and maybe the league is backing off a little bit. And maybe, well, I know one of these Native American organizations even came out, criticizing the new uniforms and the spear on the helmet. You know, our names are not, you know, supposed to be mascots. Our imagery is not supposed to be mascots for sports teams, you know, the usual. But you said something that I don't want to lose my thought on. You said that they put Redskins merchandise into their online store and they sold out immediately. I must, I think I actually was away for a few days.

I have a feeling this may have happened while I was out, because I would have seen that story and honed in on that story. When did that, when did you find out about that? When was that out? I think that, that was, the word on that was last week. And the last story I read on it, I believe, was on Friday. And so that was, that was the story last week. And even some of the networks picked it up.

I saw Newsmax and some other stations picked up. I think even the local Channel 9, WTOP or the USA, they broadcast on that as well. I love the way you referred to Channel 9 as WTOP. That was in the 70s, Mike. That was a long time ago. But yes, okay, well, you know, I wonder what prompted them to sell Redskins merchandise. It test the fan base, testing the appetite of the band base for the name Redskins.

And they're seeing that they're so hungry for Redskins merchandise. So they love the name. And they put that on their shirts and other merchandise that they purchase. They feel it's an honor to be wearing that. I wonder if it has any. I wonder if it has anything to do with, you've got, you know, to protect the mark, you know, the trademark, which if they were ever going to bring it back, okay, you want to continue to protect that trademark. I think you have to use it occasionally to protect it. I could be wrong.

I'm not, you know, a trademark attorney. But when you said that, I wondered about whether or not some of that might be in play, too. Yeah, I don't know. I cannot curb it. But, you know, they're trying to make money. You know, and then they know that this is going to sell. When people know there's a product that's going to sell, you know, they put it out there, and it just went really fast.

And this is their online store. I don't know what they're doing in there. I believe they have two stores at the stadium. I don't know what those stores. Or even if they're – I guess they're open now. But, yes, I'm not sure what they're doing there. It would be, I think you and I both know, and there are people out there that would push back on this, but most of those aren't from here and haven't had this team in their bloodstream from birth like we have. But it would be overwhelmingly popular among Washington Redskins fans, both past and present.

This would be a majority win for the organization, but whether or not they'll go down that road, I guess we'll find out in a few years. All right, let's get to your book. And we'll do that after a few words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, creatine is one of the most researched and effective supplements available. But as the category has exploded, most brands have focused on flavors, formats, and marketing instead of actually making the creatine. itself better. That's why Momentus created signature spec creatine, their most advanced creatine ever, setting a new standard for creatine quality. Momentous signature spec creatine is one of the only creatines to be manufactured in a pharmaceutical facility using reverse osmosis

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Schedule that fast-free in-home estimate today. Mention my name. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to windownation.com. So give me your favorite parts of the update, 07 through 24. First of all, the update is, like I said, nearly two decades of season summaries. there hasn't been a lot of positive things to write about. Right. And as you know.

But there were some good seasons such as, so the book came out in my last season in the first book was 2006 that I summarized. So 2007 was a playoff year. Yeah, and Sean Taylor, yeah. That was a very tumultuous year, very memorable for, I guess, for all the, except for the playoff run, you know, for all the wrong reasons. But so 2007, the 2012, RG3, 2015 was a playoff year. The Alex Smith story, the horrific injury in 2018, then his remarkable comeback.

I mean, nobody thought he would ever step foot on a football field again, no less play to the level that he played at. I mean, he won games for them in the 2000 season. So I wrote about that. The 2020 season, yeah. I'm sorry, 2020 season, yeah. And in terms of in mentioning Sean Taylor, he is one of the new player bios that I have in the book, London Fletcher, Deontzo Hall, Lorenzo Alexander, Ryan Carrigan, Turner McCorren, Trent Williams. So those are the new player bios. I have new sidebars in the book, such as, you know, in the 2008 presidential election, how did the, what was going on in the Reds?

locker room in terms of how they thought about Obama, who was for him, who was against him, who was for McCain. I had a sidebar about that. I had a sidebar. I interviewed Greg Blosh in the 2009 season about his. So there was only one African-American coach in the movie Rudy, and Greg Blosh said, that was me. Really?

He was at Notre Dame then. He was at Notre Dame then. Interesting. I think I knew he was at Notre Dame, but I would have never. guessed that he was there, what, 76, would have been the year, something like that? I wasn't 76 or maybe a season or two earlier? Well, here, anyway, sometimes in the mid-70s.

Yes. He said that was me. Greg Blasch obviously wasn't in the movie, but that was character portraying me as the coach at the time. He was the only African coach at Notre Dame at the time. That's wild. Never knew that.

Wow. Yeah. So that was one of the sidebars that I have in the update. You know, of course, you know, Snyder retiring the name Redskins and then the choice of the name commanders and the in-house coaches, assistant coaches that the team that the Redskins had over the years that they let go. Yeah. Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan, they're at the top of the list, but also Matt LaFleur.

Yeah. Mike McDaniel. So all these assistant coaches that they let get out the door that somehow some way if they had kept them now they hired Jake Gruden while McVey was still if he was still the quarterback coach maybe they thought he wasn't ready to be a head coach

I don't know. McVeigh was the tight ends coach he elevated him to C yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. So maybe they thought he wasn't ready to be the head coacher. Who knows? But now, of course, Kyle Shanahan was caught in the, you know, major controversy.

You know, Snyder and RG3 and the Shanahan, they hated the, you know, Snyder or whatever. So that's why he was gone. But Mount LaProre at one time was an assistant coach. Yeah, I mean, so that was something else I wrote about. Did you, I mean, I think about 2007 through 2024, the 2007 season because of the loss of Sean Taylor and then that, you know, I still think one of the most. incredible moments of sadness tied to surrealness was the Buffalo game at home. I was actually doing the pregame show back then on radio.

And it was the first game after Sean's passing earlier that week. And they played the bills that week at home. And that's when Greg Williams put 10 out onto the field on the first play defensively. And the running back for Buffalo number 21, his number was 21, Fred Jackson, on the first play ran for 21 yards from scrimmage against the 10 players. And Williams did that without Gibbs knowing that. Do you know that, right? Gibbs didn't know that Greg Williams was going to do that.

There's a theory as to why Greg Williams did not get the head coaching job. Now, he may have clashed with Gibbs prior to that, or there may even things that Gibbs did like about him, and Gibbs had a say in it, I know that. And he was very close with Dan Snyder. So that is the theory as the main belief as to why Williams did not get the head coaching job. And, I mean, I think he would have been a really good pick. I mean, he had head coaching years previously in Buffalo, and I don't think he had what, like about a 500 record there. I'm correct. So, but he seemed to be the logical successor when Gip stepped down.

Instead, we got Jim Zorn. Yeah. So wasn't he considered anywhere else as a head coach. Oh, my God. I mean, Tom, Tommy, Tom Levero was in the parking lot that day when Zorn was walking in to the building. We had a studio, 980. We had a studio right there when you walked into the building to the left where we did shows from there. And we had just finished the show.

I had left. Tommy was in the parking lot and Zorn was walking in. And he heard Zorn say, we think, to his wife, no, I'm coming home to get a suit because they want to interview me for the head coaching job. Like he was shocked. But back to the Buffalo game, the surreal part was that the most. moment of silence, you could have heard a pin drop in that stadium, the sadness, and then the horrific ending to that game, when Gibbs called back-to-back timeouts got penalized because you can't call back-to-back timeouts, he got penalized 15 yards, turning a 51-yard

field goal into a 36-yard field goal. And I remember the kicker, Ryan Lundell hit the kick at the gun and they lost the game 17 to 16. It was so awful. The whole day was just, well, I think it truly was one of the saddest days in the history of the franchise in terms of at a game. Well, I was there that day and, of course, in the press box, but you could tell even prior to the game, there was a memorial in front of the stadium. And even during the game, the fans really did.

didn't know what to think. I know. I mean, everybody was in disbelief as to what was going on. Even, I mean, I have to say myself and other members of the media, I mean, it is right, the word surreal played into it. It was just a surreal set of circumstances that happened. I mean, I didn't like how some in the media, though, following Taylor's death, or even after, right after he was shot, saying that he kind of deserved it or that they immediately, assumed that, you know, he was, he was involved with these guys that broke into his home, the five guys from Fort Myers-Barre. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that was really a travesty on the part of the media, not doing its homework. And in this case, it really made certain members of the

media look very bad, in my opinion. I was on the air for 20 straight hours that day. It was, And then we went home. I'll never forget this. Todd Castleberry was the program director at the time. And I got a call at 6 a.m. We went to bed that night thinking that he was going to be, the reports were he was going to survive. He was going to be okay.

I get a call at like 6 a.m. Get in now. He died. I couldn't believe it. It was just shocking. But anyway, yeah, so that season is the Zorn things weird. I think that, you know, The RG3, Shanahan, Dan dynamic is one of the, it's a 30 for 30, you know, Mike, that someone's

eventually going to do it, right? I think it is such a compelling story. I mean, just the, right, the dynamic, the controversy, the clashing with all of these guys. First of all, Snyder embraced RG3, even in the, his first off season, but, then the second off season, didn't he take him to the Kentucky Derby? I mean, he took, yeah. What did the other players feel about this? I mean, the owner of the team is playing favorites with the quarterback, and you're left out.

I mean, we're just like, what are we, chop liver? That's kind of what Snyder was making it seem like. he was just reaching out too much to RG3, and it just became like a circus. Yeah, it was just, you know, with the injury in the playoff game, I mean, who knows who said what, and whose decision it was to keep him on the field, you know. For all we know, RG3 could have said to Shanahan,

listen, I want to stay in the game. This is my team. I want to stay out there. Now, Shanahan could have been in fault for not, you know, putting his foot down as a head coach and saying, we don't think you should still be playing right now. But who, you know, who really made the final decision will never know? Yeah, I mean, I had Mike, you know, on my show, it was the first media he had done since he left D.C. This was in 2015.

He came on the show that I was, you know, co-hosting with Tom Levero at the time on 9-8. he ended up being on with us for about an hour and a half. And, you know, and I had gotten to know Mike at that point pretty well and knew him when he was coaching here. And I've stayed in touch with him over the years. You know, his side of the story is certainly an interesting one. And it's the one that says that, you know, the doctor, you know, the Birmingham orthopedic with the Beanie hat on.

I'm forgetting his name right now. But he came out. of a back room at halftime of the Seattle game and said, Mike, he can go. It was more the brace that was making him limp around, not the knee. We fixed the brace. He should be fine because Mike was about to put Kirk Cousins into the game in the second

half. And then we know the rest of the story, but you made the most astute point about the whole dysfunction. It started with the owner entitling a 22-year-old. beyond what was appropriate for a football locker room. And he didn't let his head coach him, period. You know, he got in the middle of everything and, per usual, effed up everything. It was embarrassing.

It was just not the way a coach-owner relationship is supposed to work. Right. I mean, he was just, New Snyder was just so meddlesome throughout the time that he owned the team, I wouldn't say in the final years he probably wasn't as, but, you know, and I'll also say this about RG3. You know, when

we look at, you know, who made what decision or, you know, how this happened or whatever, when he had the knee injury, which was his second, I believe it was his second ligament tear. Didn't he, he had a ligament tear when he was at Baylor as well? Yes. Right. So two ligament ligament tears.

I think he was done at that point in terms of, it was and that's the way it played out. In terms of being able to run that same offense that they used in his rookie season, he didn't have the speed like he did as a rookie to get outside, the running ability. And in fact, I interviewed Joe Seizman about this. He said that was his downfall. I mean, first of all, he was sort of, you know, an above average, I would say,

passer to good. But when defense has figured out that he didn't have the same running ability, then he was done. I mean, he just could not be the same type of quarterback. What do you think about that? Well, I think there's so much to that. I think that you're probably right. But I think coming into the league, he wasn't, you know,

people like to compare him to Jaden Daniels. They're nothing alike, personality-wise or even football-wise. Jaden Daniels was a polished product coming into the NFL as a drop-back passer. RG-3 was not. He was not a drop-back passer, which is, is what Mike and Kyle realized and said, if he's going to be on the field as a rookie, we have to reinvent the NFL offense. And they implemented the pistol. They put Zone Reed into the offense, which by the way, still exists today. Russell Wilson ended up

running at Kaepernick did that year. And they made him one of the great rookie quarterbacks in the history of the game in 2012. And, you know, he didn't want to be that kind of quarterback. That was a big part of that off-season. When he had that surgery in early 2013, and he called that very infamous, you know, meeting with Mike and Kyle and Lafleur, you know, in Ashburn, and he had 21 plays written on the whiteboard that he said he wanted out of the playbook. And they were all the plays that made him more of a running quarterback. And Kyle and Mike looked at him and said, Robert, these are the plays that just led to you having the greatest season in the history of the league as a rookie quarterback. We want to get some of them out of there as well, but you're not ready to be the kind of quarterback that you want to be.

And then I think also there were major coachability issues, and Dan was in the middle of it, right? So you had that as well. The injury definitely played into it. bottom line is it didn't work for him anywhere, anywhere in the pros after that rookie year. I think everybody defaults on, well, he was never right physically. It was more than that because he certainly could have played quarterback had he been good at the other aspects of playing quarterback, but he wasn't. And I think he was a personality that was very difficult for people to deal with after a certain. period of time. He was definitely self-promotional at a very, very elite level. No doubt about that.

And Snyder exacerbated that whole situation. No doubt. And I'll say this about the off-season. In terms of the plays, you know, what Snyder was the RGP was dictating in terms of what he wanted to do. His father got involved, too. Yes, he did. It was embarrassing. I mean, a five-year-old kid? I mean, did he do. Do the parents need to become involved? It was just incredibly embarrassing. And now, let me take one thing back.

I said, in his rookie season, he was a very, very good pastor. I mean, he said rookie pass. Oh, he had a big arm. He had a good arm, no doubt. Yeah. And Reed, I mean, that played into it. I mean, he had an amazing arm. Yeah.

Because he's only played into it. And you know what I do that defenses catch up quickly. Yeah. Okay. They caught up them. They figured out what his strengths are, and when he didn't have the same running ability, in my opinion, then they took away his game. I mean, he just wasn't the same quarterback.

And he didn't have his own weed with the other team. I guess you at Cleveland and the Ravens, you know. Yeah, the funny thing about 2013, remember the all-in for week one off season, which was, you know, RG3 at his best is at his self-promotional best. but he probably shouldn't have played in that opener in 2013 against Philadelphia. He wasn't physically ready, but Kirk got hurt in the preseason. Mike says he was going to start Kirk in that opener, and Dan was dead set against it, of course, but he said, I don't care.

We don't think RG3 is ready. And then Kirk sprained an ankle in that preseason. So RG3 started that year, and if you recall, first two games, he looked. look terrible. The offense looked terrible because they took all of the zone read stuff out. And Mike says after three or four weeks, RG3 came to us and said, all right, you can put that stuff back into the offense. And he actually had some really good games until he got hurt, you know, a little bit later on. And, you know, the Rex Grossman came in right at the end of 2013 to play some of those games at the end of the year. Yeah, it was, it was unbelievable.

dysfunctional. Look, RG3 was far from the perfect pupil, but it was entitled by the owner. A more, a less dysfunctional environment may have given him a chance. And you know, I've said this for years, Mike.

The irony of all of it is that RG3's best move career wise would have been for Dan to butt out and to let people like Mike Shanahan, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, Mike McDaniel, Matt LaFleur, coach him without owner interference, and to develop him into a more complete quarterback.

But he didn't want that. Dan didn't want that. The Shanahan's and everybody left, and the rest is history. You just ask you one thing about the, do you remember the 2015 preseason? Yeah. And RG3, he got pommeled by the. Lions. The Lions, and I think it was the first preseason game as well.

Well, the mystery about that whole thing is why Jay Gruden left him in in those circumstances. You know, nobody will ever know the real reason to that unless, you know, I guess if you interviewed Jay Gruden, but it was like, did Gruden really want him to get hurt? Did he want Kirk Cousins to be the starter? I mean, it's just, it was one of those mysteries and situations you just couldn't figure out. Well, yeah. I mean, I have Jay on every week during the football season. We've covered all of that ground over the years. Jay essentially says the following about that, you know, offseason, preseason.

He said it was so obvious to everybody that Kirk was the quarterback and had to be the starting quarterback. And I said, yeah, but, and I remember asking him, but how did you convince Dan? He said, I convinced Bruce, and Bruce ended up convincing Dan because it was, he would have lost the locker room before the season ever started if he didn't start cousins because it was that obvious. And Mike used to say the same thing. He said, you can't fool the locker room. And if you try to, you lose the team.

And RG3, the Detroit game. it's funny you bring that up he he looked terrible he wasn't right and and i'm i made a note to myself to ask jay more about that specific preseason game because i don't think i have over the years about you know did you leave him in there to make them look bad to make it so obvious or what but jay said all along he's like it was so obvious which is why jay came out and said Kirk Cousins is going to start the opener, and somebody said, and then no one had to ask him, and he said, and for the entire 2015 season. He didn't leave.

He shut the door on it and said, this is obviously the move. If we're interested in winning games, this is what we have to do. And Kirk Cousins had a record-breaking season in 2015. I mean, you know, it started with that you like that. was a spark. But yeah, I mean, what he'd throw for 4,600 yards that season or something like that? Well, I mean, Cousins, the 2016 offense ended up being the best offense we've seen around here in a long time, right? I mean, the 2024 offense was really good. The 2016 offense was elite. And Mike, if they had had, Jay said this many times. If they had had just a bad defense instead of an atrocious defense, that's,

team would have won 11 games and been solidly in the playoffs. I'm talking about 2016. 2015, they obviously made it to the playoffs. And Kirk, you know, that's that's the franchise record, right? The 4,900 plus in 2016 in terms of yards. And they only had a 9 and 7 record that year, but they kind of made a late season run. But 2016, that defense was so bad. They couldn't get off. they just, I mean, it was, it really, the offense, like you say, it was one of the best in team history. But the defense couldn't get off the field. Now, actually, that was really Jay's downfall as a coach.

You know, I thought he had a really, really imaginative offensive mind. No doubt. He didn't have any defense. No doubt. I was going to say, you know, in your update, you know, that also is a fascinating time. the Kirk Cousins back-to-back franchise tag seasons. I had Kirk actually on a few months back. It was right before the Super Bowl, I think, or after the Super Bowl.

We went through a lot of that. But for him, you know, he essentially said, look, when Sean left to go to L.A., I then didn't want to stay. They had an opportunity if they had wanted to to lock me up in 2015 for sure. But once I signed that second franchise, tag, I was probably gone, in part because he really, really loved Sean.

And he knew that he could get traded to San Francisco, which is what Kyle wanted. But Dan and Bruce wouldn't trade him to the 49ers because they were Shanahan's. And turned down what would have been multiple first round picks, according to Jay Gruden. It was spiteful. It's kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. Also, I did interview Bruce Allen about that whole situation, and he basically said, they could have franchised them again, by the way, as you know, for a third year. He said they weren't going to do it. They weren't going to, quote, play that game again.

So I think there were issues on both sides. I don't want to say it was just the team neglecting what they could have done. But I think it was also the cousin's side, too, getting a little too overconfident in the situation. and just exploiting it for what he could, for what he could. And Bruce Allen basically said, we weren't going to play that game anymore. It was too late. Their big mistake was not trading him before the 2017 season, because you were never going to pay the whatever it was,

30% above the top five on a third straight franchise tag. Nobody's ever been franchise tag three times. So, yes, it was available to them, but it would have been outrageously cost prohibitive. They messed up twice. They messed up by low-balling him in 2015. When they should have had the vision that he is a legitimate top half of the league starting quarterback, let's pay him because he would have certainly taken a long-term deal after 2015

and then not trading him after 2016 out of spite because they ended up losing him for, you know, a compensatory pick after he signed with the Vikings, you know, after the 2017 season. They were, they were really, really dumb when it came to, you know, obvious things. Like, you got to trade him because he's going to become a free agent. You're not going to pay him a third franchise tag. And yet they went into, look, they went into 2017. If the defense, if that team stayed healthy in 2017, that was not a bad football team. But remember, they lost

key players. They lost Chris Thompson. They lost pretty much their entire offensive line. And they limped kind of to the finish after, you know, it was a chance for another really good offensive team with an improved defensive team. But anyway, yeah,

that line that year, I remember that. I just want to touch on one thing that during the Snyder era, and I think this is very important to point out of all of the shortcomings that Snyder had, the meddling in the team's affairs and overpaying, you know, Albert Haynesworth, the worst free agent signing in NFL history,

and then Adam Archelette, he's right behind him. Right. There were something that were out of his control. I mean, Sean Taylor, first of all, we discussed him. I mean, he was, in my opinion, he was en route to a Hall of Fame career. I agree. I agree. You could just get there.

I think he was going to be better than Ed Reed. So, I mean, that was out of his control. the injury to Alex Smith in the 2018 season. I wrote extensively about this. I mean, that team, they may have finished 10 and 6 or whatever, 9 and 7. That team probably would have gone to the playoffs. I mean, I don't think they would have made a serious playoff run, but I think they would have gotten there with him.

I mean, he was like your ultimate game manager. So that was out of Snyder's control as well. And by the way, one thing I wrote about in the book, is the eerie similarities between the injury to Alex Smith and the injury to Joe Thaisman. I mean, that was beyond belief. You know, all the similarities, same date and same final score of the game, right? Yes, I believe that is correct. Yeah.

You know, the Alex Smith 2018 team, so I've gone through this so many times, I think a lot of people agree with you that if he stays healthy, that team was a good enough team to win nine games go to the postseason. I felt like Alex Smith was truly a game managing quarterback for whatever you think that description means. And they weren't very dynamic offensively, but that team didn't beat itself. You know, they'd gotten to six and three it was. Wasn't it six and three before the Houston game?

I think it was. And, you know, they're playing Houston. and they were down in that game when he did get hurt. And they had a rough part of this schedule coming up. I remember they played a game against Tampa Bay where, you know, basically they were plus four in the turnover margin, even though they got out. They gave up like 500 yards.

And look this, you might know this, but I think it's true. Tampa Bay in that game was the only team in NFL history to have 500 plus yards of offense and score three points or less. I think we won that game 16 to 3 is my memory. I'm going to look that up, actually. I can't answer that offhand. I don't know.

So I kind of thought it was a little bit of smoke and mirrors to get to 6 and 3, but you may have been right. Look, they were much better off with him than they were without him, obviously. There was something about Alex Smith. Now, he wasn't a dynamic quarterback. No. He wasn't for 400 yards a game, but he knew how to win. Okay, he wasn't going to win every game.

Right. He knew how to pull a lot of them out. And I think that's what he was going to do in that 2018 season. And it's just so unfortunate about what happened to him. I mean, it was just terrible luck. So, of course, that wasn't a Snyder's fault. I found it here. I don't want to, I found the box score.

You ready for this? 16 to 3, and that was the game before the Houston game. So it got them to 6 and 3 in the season. The Buccaneers in the game had 501 yards of offense. They had four turnovers and missed two field goals in the game. But I'm pretty sure, and maybe it's happened since, I believe my memory is that they became the first team in NFL history to have 500 or more yards.

and score three or less points in a game. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. So if we keep going, right, the 2020 season because of COVID, because of Rivera getting the dual GM head coach with him getting sick, with the name change, all of that had to be a fascinating year to look at. Oh, of course it was.

Right. I mean, and also, seven and nine getting into the playoffs right. Right. Now, when so many people were saying, oh, they, you know, they're such a bad team and why should they get in the playoffs of seven or nine?

I'm saying, like, the Seattle Seahawks, I believe in the 2011 season, they went in at seven and nine, and didn't want to Rivera's teams in Carolina? Yes, one of Rivera's teams in Carolina won the NFC South with, I think it was a seven, eight, and one record. I think it was.

Correct. And I think that was the year, before they went to the Super Bowl. Right. So other teams had been to the playoffs, winning the divisions with losing records. Okay. And then like Rivera said at the end of the season, why not us? Right.

So I think I was seven-nine. And then another chapter in that whole season was Heineke. Right. Of course. Does it mean the Superman died? I mean, it was just breathtaking what he was doing in that game. He nearly led them to a win. over Tampa Bay that game, which went on to win the Super Bowl.

So that was just, that whole season was fascinating. I have a question for you about that season because we were just talking about Alex Smith. Alex Smith made his return during that season. And there was a lot of, you know, angst, I think, organizationally about putting him back on the field. you know, after, like he almost died, you know, after that Houston game in a hospital with sepsis, et cetera. And he came into the game against the Rams. And you're going to have to tell me, I think it was Kyle Allen who started that game because Heineke wasn't on the team yet. It was it Kyle Allen?

Dwayne Haskins didn't start that. Right. And so Alex Smith comes in and on his very first drop, back pass, Aaron Donald picks him up and body slams him. And I'm like, oh my God, the collective, you know, breath had to have stopped for the organization. Because think about this, and I remember saying it at the time, you're going to put this guy back out under the field, an organization that is literally the cesspool of the NFL during all of the investigations, the sexual harassment, everything that's going on with the organization, and you're going to put this guy back out there and he's going to get injured again.

And he's going to, you know, he's never, that had to be, you tell me, that had to be a real organizational. Are we really going to put him on the roster and put him back out there again? I never thought of it that way. That is very interesting. But in terms of the play by Aaron Donald, I think he was on Smith's back. Yeah. He landed on him.

Yeah, picked him up and landed on him. Yeah, that is when I cringe, I'm like, is his leg going to crack in half? Right. I mean, the team got the okay from all of the doctors that Alksmith saw in all the course of the year and a half period. from the time they had the injury, and of course he went to the Army facility in Texas, and he was a re-out there.

So I guess everyone that the team consulted, and I'm sure they consulted, a lot of people in the medical community about that situation, they said, Alex Smith is ready to play. He had some good games when he came back and started some of those games, and he started the game at Philadelphia that clinched the playoff spot in the division. He threw the touchdown pass to, I think that... It was the tight end from Virginia Tech, the, you know, the guy that played quarterback in Virginia Tech. He threw touchdown past him.

Yeah. Logan Thomas. Logan Thomas. That's right. I think it put them up, I didn't put them up by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter or something, and then the... Something like that. Another storyline to that game is what Siriani did. Oh, no, not Siriani.

The coach at the time, Doug Peterson. Doug Peterson, it was, he took, yeah, he took Jalen Hertz out of the game in the fourth quarter and put in Nate Sudfeld. Well, that's right, right. He took Hurt. And then they were still in the game. I mean, that was bizarre. And they were still in the running. Nobody can understand why he would take Jailen Harts out.

Well, because they wanted to tag. the game clearly and not not you know lose draft positioning that was that was the thought is that they're sitting they were they were hanging in there with Washington who had everything to play for

Philadelphia didn't have anything to play for that day wasn't it if Washington lost the Giants would have won the division right I think and so Philly was hanging in there too much and he benched hurts and put in Sudfeld which he thought

But gave, you know, as somebody decided that Philadelphia organization, he probably was Howie Roseman, who just said, you know, enough of this, we were going to lose three draft slots if we win this game. That got Peterson fired, obviously. I think he was on his way out anyway, yeah. The whole situation. Yeah. Yeah, that was an amazing season.

And Dwayne Haskins, obviously, was another storyline in that whole season. I mean, the way he behaved with COVID and went to the party with. with the strippers, although he claimed, you know, he was just with his girlfriend or whatever, and he had, you know, and then Rivera was still overcoming cancer. I mean... Did you interview Rivera for this book? I did not interview Rivera, no. I mean, I would guess, I think he's very reluctant to talk about his time here.

I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all. I mean, it had to be a very tumultuous period for him as well. Sure. But yeah. But yeah, I mean, going to playoffs, it was just an amazing situation and going there with a 7-9 record and the run they made. I think they went four straight toward the end of the season.

So I think they had four-game winning streak, didn't they? They did in the middle of that season because it included, remember, they crushed the Cowboys on Thanksgiving Day, and then they went to Pittsburgh where the game got really, rescheduled for like a Monday afternoon because of COVID, because they had, the Steelers had to play the Ravens the week before on a Wednesday. Remember how screwed up that year was?

And Pittsburgh was undefeated. And we went in there, Washington went in there and ended their perfect season. And, you know, at that point, you know, Chase Young was playing really good football Montes. The defense was really good at the end of that year.

Was not in the play. off game, but it was really good at the end of the regular season. What about the, what about the 2022 season where they legitimately had a chance, you know, at 7, 5 and 1, and then they played those back-to-back games, or 7-5, they played those back-to-back games against the Giants? Right. That was Rivera. I mean, he messed up at the end.

I mean, he had went, didn't when start the season-ending game? The Cleveland game. Okay, right. So, and I believe Heineke, Heineke had gotten injured the previous week, right? And Wentz came in. And I believe they still lost the next to last game, but Rivera started Wentz in the season-ending game. And Wentz just, I mean, it looked atrocious.

And then he left him in for the entire game, if I'm correct, or maybe put Heineken. No, I think he left him in. there if my memory serves me correctly. I maybe put Heineke in, but it was, yeah, it was, it was an odd game. I remember that. But yes, it was, it was a decision that backfired clearly. Taylor Heineke was not playing well.

They played the 49ers the week before, and he was not playing very well. And I think they thought he was limited in what he could do. and if they were going to really make a run and have any chance, they needed somebody like Wentz, and Wentz was not very good either, so there was that. Interceptions he threw, I mean, they were just, they were not the receiver's fault at all. I mean, those are clearly, you know,

quarterback-induced interceptions. He was just, it was just a terrible, terrible situation. And everything, I remember Rivera being questioned after the game, you know, why did you start Wentz and why did you leave him in the whole game? I think Rivera was trying to prove the point that he made in terms of acquiring him in the first place. I think the only reason that Rivera maintained his job after that season is because the ownership situation was in question. Right. I mean, everybody was waiting to see what was going to happen.

It may have been, I think everybody knew it was inevitable at that point that Snyder was going to sell the team, but it was just the transition to a new ownership. Otherwise, Rivera would have been fired. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, it was the other part of that Cleveland game was that in the press conference after, Ron seemed to be oblivious to the possibility that he could be eliminated from the NFC playoff race later on that afternoon, which was pretty embarrassing. He didn't realize that the combination of the loss of the Browns, and I forget who it was,

it may be the Rams of the Packers or somebody, if a four o'clock, window game went a certain way they were going to be eliminated, which ended up happening. And he was totally unaware that they could be eliminated on that day. Vincent asked him that question. Yeah, I remember that. Exactly. Grant asked him that question, right. Yeah, he was oblivious to it. And it was just totally, it was embarrassing on the part of a coach.

I mean, how could you not know something like that? He was just, his mind wasn't there the whole time. All right. Let's take a quick break. Back with Mike, the author of Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders. The update to his 2007 book will do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by MyBooky. If you're betting on football this year, guys, do it at MyBooky.

MyBooky.com or MyBooky.ag promo code Kevin, D.C. for a cash bonus on your first deposit. or if you're returning to reload with a new deposit. All the week one lines are up. They've been up for a while, although a couple have been updated. Philadelphia is now a five-point favorite. It's been four and a half for the last week, up to five. The total in the game is 44 and a half.

The largest line of week one, the chargers are 10-point favorites over the Cardinals. The game on Wednesday night, we are nearing the opening. of the NFL season, the Seahawks laying three and a half to New England. My bookie's got everything and everything is fair, fair numbers, fair pricing. MyBooky.com, mybooky.orgie.orgie.orgia, promo code Kevin, D.C. All right, I wanted to ask you something that actually has nothing to do with the book, but it has something to do with the organization. And I'm curious as to what you think.

It deals with jersey numbers being retired. We both know that for many years it was just Sammy Baas number 33. But in recent years, we have seen, you know, Sunny's jersey number nine, Darrell Green's jersey number 28, Bobby Mitchell's 49 was the first that they retired a few years back when they decided to start retiring jerseys. Art Monks, 81, Sean Taylor's 21. We've had, and with Rigo's 44 going in, we'll have seven jerseys retired for this. franchise and I believe there's one more that has to be retired.

Just one more that has to be retired that there's no debate about. Other jersey numbers, there may be some debate, some may actually think they're deserving of it, some others don't. But to me, there's one jersey number after Rigo's that there's no debate has to be retired. I won't tell you what it is because I think you know what it is, but I want to hear what other jersey numbers you think should be retired after Rigo's is retired this fall. I think that it should be Charlie Taylor. 100%.

That's it. And I should be capped right there. I do too. I think they're going to run out of numbers for the roster. But I think it's enough that I guess Charlie Taylor would be the eighth, correct? Because there's six right now. So Riggins is going to be seven, and Charlie Taylor should be, I think it should be capped at that point. Enough is enough.

So, I mean, I think it's quite an honor to have your number retired by the franchise, and Reagan is obviously deserving of it. They pulled off the greatest single play in team history. And Charlie Taylor, he's deserving of it as well. He definitely needs to have his number retired. But in my opinion, that should be it for now. That's it. That's my list.

Sonny, Darrell Green, Sammy Baugh, Charlie Taylor, John Riggins, Bobby Mitchell, Art Monk. And I know Sean's is retired. And to me, that is one of those, you know, stand-alone decisions that the owner made. I wouldn't have retired it when they retired it. I would have made sure that Sonny's jersey and Daryl's jersey and Charlie Taylor and Rigo's jersey and Art Munk's jersey was retired before Sean Taylor's. But that's the list for me. You know, everything after that, to me is very, very debasey.

not slam dunk. It sounds like you and I have the exact same slam dunk list. We are thinking alike. Well, first of all, we've both been compared to as forces of reason in terms of the franchise. But, yeah, I wouldn't go any farther than Charlie Taylor. That's, I have the same way. Also, in terms of Sean Taylor, some people still question that. His number being retired.

I mean, he played less than four seasons with the team. Like I said, I think he was en route to a Hall of Fame career. I mean, the question is, did he accomplish enough to have his number retired? I think, I mean, I agree with you. I think it could have waited. I think, you know, the decision-making process, it was too, you know, a little too knee-jerk, in my opinion. Yeah, well, he didn't, he didn't earn it based on merit.

I mean, obviously it wasn't his fault. He passed away. I agree with you. I think he was on his way to a Hall of Fame career. But I think it's just one of those special circumstances where it's kind of owner discretion, I would call it. And obviously, Sean was a favorite of Dan. And I didn't have a problem with them retiring his jersey because of the circumstances surrounding, you know, the short career. I just wouldn't have retired it.

And I certainly wouldn't have retired it the way Jason Wright and company retired it. I mean, that turned out to be one of the most awkward moments of the very short-tenured Jason Wright team presidency run. But, yeah, no, you're right. It wasn't earned based on a career of accomplishments because he didn't have a chance to have that career. Right. It was just the way he died. and the unfortunate circumstances. Yeah, it's just so sad. And I would have to say that next to Len Bias,

I think that his passing, I mean, Lombardi's up there too, but Sean Taylor is really probably the worst, really the most impactful depth of an athlete in D.C. sports history. That's my opinion. I mean, bias is up there as well. and I throw Lombardi in there too But I don't know What do you think of that?

Well, I mean, I think it's generational. For my generation, you know, Len Bias's death was an unbelievable moment. It was a, you knew where you, you know, I can go back to exactly where I was the moment I heard it. And by the way, what came because of Lend Bias' death, you know, politically and from a, the laws that were created,

after that. It was a very impactful death on the country. Sean Taylor's wasn't that, but for a younger generation, it's the same thing. You know, they'll never forget where they were when they heard the news. And Sean Taylor had become an absolute fan favorite. And I think a player that was in 2007, before he got injured, you saw it then. He had become a great player and was on the verge of becoming the best at his position in the game. And I think he would have been one of the great safeties in the history of the game. You know, in talking about that, Mike, you know, like I don't think Ken Houston's jersey should be retired, his 27 jersey.

I don't think it should be. I think it could be debated, but I'd fall on the side of probably not because he had seven years in Houston before he came here to Washington. But you could argue that Ken Houston, in terms of all-time best at his position, is the highest ranked player at his position of any player in Skin's history. Right. Well, first of all, yeah, he's in the top 100 players as announced in 2019 by the NFL. Yeah, I mean, he is, if there is another player that's deserving of it,

he would be the one. he pulled off, I mean, next to Darrell Grant in the 82 championship game, he pulled off the greatest defensive play, in my opinion. Walt Carson, yeah. And you and I know, you know, having seen that game and living through that whole era, I mean, that is such an iconic play in team history. And, yeah, next to Darrell Grant, in my opinion, that's the second greatest defensive play ever in franchise history. So if there is somebody after Charlie Taylor, he is worth it. But like you said, he had tremendous seasons with the Houston Oilers before coming. I would also say, though, that was George Allen's greatest acquisition.

Of all of the trades that he made, you could throw Billy Kilmer in there as well. I was going to say more so than Kilmer. Yeah. All right. Go ahead. I think Ken Houston was the greatest acquisition. Kilmer is up there, too. I mean, he is like right behind.

I put Houston number one. You think it should be... No, no, no, no. I think you're... I think if you had asked me that question and we weren't talking about Ken Houston, I think my immediate answer would have been Billy Kilmer. And I probably would even...

Would have even said somebody like, you know, Jack Pardee or, you know, acquiring, you know, Ritchie Pettabone. I mean, there were so many defensive players on that 71 team that came with him from L.A., obviously the Rams that came with him, and then acquiring Pettibone. But no, the Houston trade is phenomenal. And that secondary, it was him and Jake Scott, right,

that paired up at safety together. That was later on in the 70s. I think that was like 70s. 76, two years later maybe, yeah. Yeah, originally he was with Pat Fisher, Brigg Owens. Brigg Owens. Yeah, of course. He was with Brigg at Safety.

you with Pat Fisher and Bass at the corners, yeah. Yeah, so he was with those guys. Mike Bass was still there. Those were the four starters when Houston got there. I mean, that was a very formidable defense. I mean, that was the year after the Super Bowl appearance against the Dolphins. That was still a really, really good team. Right.

But I think, you know, one of Allen's issues is that he put so much focused on the defense that, you know, it's been said that he didn't. the lack of emphasis on the offense really was his downfall. Particularly, I think I really heard him in the playoffs, losing to the Vikings twice in the opening round. And, yeah, I just, you know, 49ers and 71, of course. But I think that was his downfall as a coach. So he didn't put enough emphasis on the offense.

And Billy killed right up there. I mean, that was the trade that saved the Redskins. Yeah. He's not only in 71, but in 72 as well. Of course. I know this is very interesting. I interviewed Kilmer for the Sonny Jorgensen book, and of course I'll use his quotes elsewhere as well.

He told me something so interesting about that 72 season. He told me that if Sonny Jurgensen had remained healthy, if he didn't have the Achilles tear, midway through the 72 season, Kilmer would not have seen the field again in 72. And who knows what would have happened in the postseason, okay? And who knows what would have happened in Super Bowl 7? I mean, I think, you know, that Dolphins team was to be had. I mean, yeah, they finished 17 and 0.

I think they were beatable, though. I think they struggled in the AFC championship game against the Steelers. Well, Sonny, who, you know, for 13 years came on, or 12 of them anyway, came on the pregame show with me every single Sunday. I can't tell you how many times he told me that, that his Super Bowl was against the Dolphins in the 74 regular season when he drove the team 80 yards in the final two minutes through to Larry Smith on the final play of the game to win 20 to 17

and he said that was his Super Bowl. You know, that because he thinks if he had played in Super Bowl 7, they would have won the Super Bowl. And he loves Billy. So, yes, I mean, they were a dominant defensive team. Larry Brown won the MVP. and yet they weren't, you know, a dynamic offensive football team necessarily, but they could have been with Sunny, for sure.

Yes, and by the way, also, and I agree with Kilmer on this, I mean, Sunny was having a really, really good season in 72. I mean, the game, the week prior to the Giants game, where he had the Achilles injury, the week prior they beat Dallas. Right. At our case, that 20 win over Dallas, which I believe led 20. 20 to 7 in that game. Sonny came alive in the second half.

He led that win, and that was, you could see, he had really come out. Yeah. As he was having a great season at that point. Then, of course, the week after he has the Achilles injury. You know, I think there were a number of situations with Jurgensen over the years. It was just such bad luck. I mean, the death of Lombardi being won. I know.

I mean, he's Lombardi and vice versa. somebody, Lombardy said, you know, Durness, Sunny made me the best quarterback league he's ever seen. I mean, he threw for 3,100 yards in that 69 season. So it's a what if. What if Lombardi had lived?

I mean, how good with that red skin team? I can't wait for your Sonny book now. I'm so thrilled that this new book is out, but I don't, there's a whole, well, there are multiple generations of skins fans who just

don't know how great Sonny Jurgensen was. This is a guy that in Philadelphia, you give me the year, it's the early 60s, threw for 32 touchdowns, which was insane for the time. I mean, he was a great quarterback in Philadelphia before he got traded here in 64. And then some of those seasons he had, and to your point, and he always said it, if Lombardi lives, you know, I end up being, you know, I think thought of differently, because he would have been thought of as a winner, which isn't the way his career gets described.

It gets described as one of the greatest peer passers in the history of the game, who was an absolute highlight reel on incredible offensive teams for the Eagles and the skins of the 60s. I know he won a title in Philadelphia, but he didn't play that year, right, in 60. But, yeah, and 72 could have been his year. He said over the years he didn't consider, consider himself a part of that that 1960 Eagles team. And I'll just give another little tease here about my sunny book.

So there were actually two Lombardi possibilities in Jurgensen's career. Well, of course, the second one happened, you know, 69, they passed away. Lombardi, the Eagles wanted to hire Lombardy as their coach after the 57 season. That was Jurgensen's rookie year. They wanted to hire him a coach. They made him an offer at 22,000. $500 offer, which was a very nice offer at the time. And Lombardi was, he was like the most popular assistant coach in the league at the time

next to Landry. He and Landry were up there. You know, they were the best assistant coaches. So the Eagles made him an offer. But Wellington Mera talked him out of it. He was about to sign the deal with the Eagles to become their head coach after the 57 season. So Wellington Mera, the Giants owner, talked him out of it. And so he stayed with the Giants.

following year after the 58 season. I didn't know that. Yeah. But on top of that, I asked Upton Bell, the son of Bert Bell,

I interviewed Upton Bell recently about that. He said, the Eagles still were to pursue Norman Van Brockland after, in the offseason of 58, even if they had,

if Lombardi had been hired, they still would have pursued Norm Van Brocklin as their starting quarterback. So Sonny still, he, If you look at that way, he still would have been sitting on the bench. Right.

But he would have had a party at his coach. Interesting comment, though, which started this portion of this very, I love this conversation, that Kilmer said 72 that if Sunny doesn't tear his Achilles, he was playing at such a high level. He never sees the field again that year. And then you'd have to wonder, right, does Sunny come back and start the 73 season? Of course he would have. He would have been a 39-year-old. at that point.

And he played that year, but he wasn't the starting quarterback early in. You know, in 73, he's the quarterback that night that Ken Houston stops Walt Garrison at the goal line in the 14-7 Monday night win. But he didn't start the season. I forget, why did Kilmer end up getting benched for Sunny early in 73? I believe it was after the loss to the Cardinals. Okay. There was a loss to the Cardinals at RFK.

So I think the Redskins were one and one at that point. Okay. And Alan put Sonny in there. You know, there was a lot of, the controversy was already underway. They did, you know, first so-called quarterback controversy. And so, you know, there was talk in the media and reporters were asking, you know, what's happened? Why aren't you putting Sonny in there?

and Allen probably felt it from the fans, too. So I believe it was after that Cardinals game that he put Sonny in there. But I want to back up one second. I want to point something out about the George Allen, Sonny Jurgensen dynamic. Okay? When Alan becomes the Redskins coach, he was excited to have Sonny as a starter. I mean, there was no way, even though he makes the trade for Billy Kilmer, there was no way that Kilmer was going to start.

That was Sonny's team. And then he gets injured in the preseasoning. Right. The game the Dolphins and the preseason. So that's when Kilmer becomes a starter heading into the 71 season. And Sonny is injury riddled in the ensuing three years after that. So Allen never really got to use Sonny the way he originally envisioned him. But Sonny Jurgensen was going to be George Allen's bona fide starter while he was the Redskins coach.

That was his man. I mean, who would not be excited to have Sonny Jurgensman as your starting quarterback? Right. So I'll just talk about, you know, George Allen, he disliked Sonny Jurgensen or, you know, the two obviously clashed in terms of offensive philosophy, but Alan was not going to pull him out of the game unless he was doing poorly, in my opinion. I mean, that was his starter, but he had the injury. Sonny had the, you know, he was nicked up so much.

And they started off that 71 season. and they ran like five or six straight, I think five and oh, actually, before they lost to the Chiefs, the game in which Charlie Taylor broke his leg. But they were playing great. And so he didn't put Sonny in there when he was healthy and ready to go. That 71 season, I mean, Billy basically, I'm trying to look it up real quickly because I don't remember Sunny playing much at all in 71.

72, of course, before the Achilles tear and even 73 and 9. then 74 as well. You know, he came in at 40 years old in that playoff game against the Rams. But did he even play? Did Sonny even play in 71? Or did Kilmer basically quarterback the whole season? Sonny came in for the first time in 71 in the Bears game. The game they lost in Chicago with Dick Buckus.

The catch on the extra point. Yes. Yeah. Sonny came in that game. He actually, he led them on the final drive. Kurt Knight missed a, I believe it was a 45-yard. field goal. He had already kicked five field goals that day. He missed a 45-yarder with time running out. But Sonny led them on that final drive. So that was the first action that he saw in

the 71 season. Yeah. Right. And then he also played, Kilmer started the Cowboys game at RFK, and Sonny came in that game. And I believe he saw a little bit of action after that as well. Right. So, but he, he did not play any, like, after the, oh, I believe they beat the Eagles with about four games to go. They beat the Eagles. I think Sonny started that game, but then he got injured that game, and Kilmer came in. Well, the fan. And then Kilmer started the Monday night game against the rain.

Yeah, that's the famous game of 71, other than the loss to the Chiefs when Charlie Taylor broke. It's like, or the early game in the rain at the Cotton Bowl when they'd be. the Cowboys. But the 71 George Allen returns to the Coliseum to face his former team in a game in which Washington could clinch a playoff spot, which they did

on Monday night football. That game, by the way, I'm sure you've found it. It's available. The entire game is available on YouTube if you ever want to watch it. It's pretty fascinating to watch because of Howard CoSell interviewing Billy Kilmer and George Allen before the game.

It's really good stuff. Oh, it's really, really interesting to watch. And just in the broadcast booth, so you referred to Ayrkoastel and Dandy Don and thank you. You know, they used a single microphone at the time. Yeah. One microphone, they were passing it among each other in the booth. But it's really, really impressive the way Kilmer came back in that game

because he threw a pick very early in the first quarter that was returned by Kermit, Washington, for a 75-yard intercept. Kermit Washington was the basketball player from AU, the guy that got punched Rudy Tom Donovich. Kerman Alexander. Kerman Alexander, okay, yep. So right after the series, right after that, Kilmer threw the bomb to Jefferson,

which was like hanging up there forever. But Jefferson managed to catch it between two. And there's that he went in for the touchdown. And then the Redskins basically controlled the game. from that on, although the Rams did make a run in the fourth quarter. But yeah, that was a huge win for Alan. I mean, that was his

homecoming and beating the ramp. Dan Reeves was dead at that time. I mean, he had passed away. January of 71, so he was not there for that game. Alan despised him. He had fired him twice in L.A. But that was

you could call that. Maybe that was Allen's Super Bowl win. That was a huge one. Of course, beating the You know, the Cowboys in the United States. We could do this with each other. I mean, this is geek heaven right here. I know that all of you listening are like, okay, we've had enough of 70s Redskins talk. But I always enjoy it with you.

It's so much fun. Congrats on the book. People can get the book. I'm assuming anywhere they get books. Amazon, anywhere else. Again, Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia. Redskins and Commanders covering the last 18 years since Mike's first Pro Football Encyclopedia book. Thanks so much, Mike.

Really appreciate it. If you've got anything else to add, go ahead. Yes. Well, thank you very much, Kevin, for the interview. I really enjoyed it. You're right. You and I could go back and forth forever. I just want to mention my website,

Mike Richmanjournalist.com. People can go on to my site. They can get copies of any of my books. and I'll autograph them for you. So you'll get my John Hancock's signature right from the author. Mike Richmanjournalist.com, everybody. Mike, thanks. Good luck with everything.

Thank you very much, Kevin. Mike Richmond, everybody, a true historian of our football team. All right, that'll do it for that. Remember, one last smell test pick for the weekend. Florida State tomorrow night plus the three against SMU. Enjoy the rest of the holiday weekend, everybody.