The Kevin Sheehan Show - Washington's O-Line Top 10?

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Kevin opened with Washington's current O-Line ranking per Pro Football Focus. It's pretty good. Additionally, he had thoughts on a couple of things Dan Quinn said today about his running backs and Mike Sainristil. Legendary Eagles play-by-play voice Merrill Reese joined Kevin to preview Saturday's Washington-Philly game and a lot more. Steve Buckhantz jumped on to talk about his alma mater James Madison and their match-up Saturday night at Oregon in the College Football Playoffs. But, per usual, Buck had some good aviation stories including three harrowing flights he was on when he was with the Wizards. For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Want to spruce up your lawn? FastGrowingTrees.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it, you don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show, here's Kevin. No Tommy today on the show. It's my fault. We were set to record together this morning because Tommy needed to do it this morning, and then I was unable to do it at the last minute. So we will reconvene next week, and we'll get two shows in together next week, even though it's a holiday week.

I do have two guests on the show with me today. Longtime Eagles radio play-by-play voice, Merrill Reese, in the next segment. And that will be followed by Steve Buchance, who will jump on Buck's alma mater, James Madison, in the college football playoffs. The Dukes are set to face the ducks out in Eugene, Oregon on Saturday night. So we'll get Buck's take on that game. And you're also going to hear Buck regale us with three harrowing flight experiences when he was with the Wizards on the Wizards team plane. I think many of you know that Buck is a pilot.

He's also an aviation expert and historian. Remember, we had Buck on the morning after the tragic crash at Reagan National last January. He was so good. Every time I have Buck on the show, the conversation inevitably turns to aviation. And for whatever reason, often aviation disasters. But Buck's got three stories about flights that he was on with the Wizards on the Wizards team plane that did not turn, fortunately, tragic, but were frightening nonetheless.

Stay tuned for that. The show's presenting sponsor is always, Window Nation. If you need new windows, just do me this one favor. Let Window Nation come out and give you a free in-home estimate. That's if you've been thinking

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I'll have a full smell test of college and NFL picks on tomorrow's show. But the game tonight, man, is really the game of the year in the NFC. You know, the winners got the inside track to the NFC West title and the one seed in the NFC playoffs. I was thinking about something before I started to record the show today. And that is this. I would imagine that if you're a Packers fan or a Bears fan or an Eagles fan, Lions, if you believe that your team isn't going to be a one seed, you'd rather the Rams be the one seed than Seattle. Because going to SoFi for a playoff game or an NFC championship game is at worst a neutral crowd environment, if not a home crowd advantage, especially if you're, you know,

the Bears or the Packers or the 49ers or the Eagles or the Lions. Look, the 49ers still have a chance in that division as well. And certainly, you know, the NFC North Winner, Chicago right now, the leader, has a chance at the one seat as well. But the possibility of a neutral crowd environment or something approaching it in Seattle does not exist, as we all know. At SOFI, it's really not a road game, even in the playoffs. I like the Rams a bit tonight, even though it looks like they're not going to have Devante Adams. He and Nakua are unstoppable as a duo. Remember the Rams the last time they faced Seattle.

They won by two, but Seattle had a chance with a long field goal at the gun to win it. And Sam Darnold threw four interceptions in that game. So the Seahawks nearly won against the Rams the last time they played with Darnold throwing four picks. So, you know, if Darnold protects the ball, you'd think the Seahawks, can win and maybe even should win. But that's a big if with Darnold. I think Darnold's just untrustworthy in these spots. You know, maybe tonight's different, but I think even if Seattle wins tonight, I'm still going to believe the Rams would win a rematch in the postseason. And I just trust them to go further in the playoffs. I trust Stafford and Sean

McVay, you know, more than Darnold and Mike McDonald, who's never been there, even though he's doing a great job. The Rams are good. Seattle's really good. Defensively, Seattle is a top two, three, four team. I think TVOA actually ranks them number one overall. I think Houston's

defense is the best that I've seen, but Seattle is close, no doubt. And of course, Smith and the Jigba is as good as any receiver in the league this year. But should be a hell of a game. The weather's supposed to be nasty, but just

to repeat, no smell test pick on the game, but I kind of like the Rams in a close one. This from Skins Universe. Skins Universe writes about something that I was talking about on radio today. I was talking about

something good that's come out of this miserable season. We actually took calls on it for about a half an hour or so. For me, number one on the list is the offensive line is a reveal. I mean, it's a good offensive line. It's been the healthiest part of the team

since Cosmy came back, because Cosmi obviously missed the first, what, six games of the year. But the offensive lines played very well. Laramie Tunsell has been outstanding. By the way, he is out for Saturday's game against Philadelphia with the strained oblique. There is no reason for Laramie Tunsell to play again this year. None. He is too valuable for next year to risk on what now would be two meaningless games to end the season. I would assume he's not going to play again this year, especially considering that he's not healthy right now. But Skin's Universe sent me a link to pro football focuses offensive line rankings heading into week 16. And Washington's offensive line per PFF ranks seventh.

in the NFL. You know, on the air today, I was guessing that it would be somewhere around top 10, you know, for what it's worth, PFF, you know, but yeah, I mean, it's a top third of the league offensive line, I think. PFF did single out Josh Connerly as the weak link on the offensive line, something Steve Souter has pointed out all season long, including on yesterday's show. Souter had a really interesting film breakdown if you didn't get a chance to listen to it. He really liked Ben Sennett in the game, really liked him, and he thinks Jeremy Reeves is their best overall defensive back and is one hell of a football player, which he has enjoyed watching Reeves, that is.

He's enjoyed watching him all year long. But on Connerly, look, let's just let it breathe. He's a rookie. He's figuring it out. I wanted to play two Dan Quinn soundbites for you before we get to Meryl Reese from earlier today. The first is this one about the running backs, because that's another area that is a positive takeaway from this, you know, wretched season. You know, the running backs, Chris Rodriguez, Kroski Merritt, you know, even Jeremy McNichols. We knew a little bit more about him before the season started than we did the other two.

but, you know, it's a position of, you know, health all year long, other than Echler, obviously, but it's not a position where you're going to feel desperate in the off season to do something about it. Now, I'm sure they'd love a home run threat, more of a home run threat than they have right now. And by the way, Rodriguez, I think, is a restricted free agent, so they'd have to, you know, bring him back, which I would assume they're going to try to do. but Ben Standing asked Quinn today about the two backs. Here's what Quinn said. Dan, when you look at Bill and Chris back there in the back field,

not necessarily the combination that everybody thought would be leading the way along with Jeremy a month ago, but when you look to what they can maybe be as a combination going forward, what does that kind of look like for you? Yeah. And I'm excited to see the continued development of Bill. There's probably a few guys offensively. Ben and Bill and some others that maybe Trey's not a rookie, but he's, you know, are a younger player, but he's gaining it.

But I like the combination of the two. They're different in size, Ben, but both of them have an aggressive style. And so they can break tackles. They can run through tackles. And so I think different running backs, man, this guy can get on the edge. He's got the speed to go and you're, you can be worried about that. But in between the tackles for a guy who can gain yards after contact, I think they have it. they just do it a little bit differently.

Chris runs a little lower naturally, but I think the ability to cut by Bill is some of the things that we've all seen together. And so take what's there against a team like this. They don't give up a lot of big plays. He's talking about Philadelphia. So in the running game, in the passing game, you have to be able to move the chains by taking what's there.

It's not a team, I'm going to try to cut out the back door and go get it. The linebackers are disciplined. The D-line's good. So it's going to be taking what's there and that they can get through the next level. Can I get a big play? But that's what I'm looking for in this game from them. But I like the combination.

It'll be good to have Chris back for sure. So with Dan Quinn, you often will get hints about other things, even if the question didn't ask about those other things. And that's why I wanted to play this answer. Of course, Rodriguez and Kroski Merritt are different stylistically. They're different physically in build. but it was the beginning of his answer that I thought was interesting

because he's asked about Bill and Rodriguez but he actually says there are a few guys offensively that I'm excited to see the continued development of and he mentions Ben as in Ben Sinit and he mentions Trey Berks I think Berks is definitely a guy that they are intrigued with

now he didn't play great against the Giants he was out there but we're going to see, I think, a lot of number 13 here over the final two weeks. This is a former first round pick of the Tennessee Titans. I think they have enjoyed Trey Berks' contribution and offering to this team when certainly it wasn't expected before the year began. So something to keep an eye on in this offseason is if they are interested, which I think they will be, and if they can get a deal done with Berks.

I don't know what the market for Berks will be. I doubt it will be very significant. He was on the street when Washington signed him. But also mentioning Ben, Senate, you know, after really Senate's biggest contribution, biggest participation level with snap counts highest of the year against the Giants. The other soundbite that I wanted to play for you was Quinn on Mikey Sanrist. So San Ristel last year, you know, forced to the outside because of need. This year starts on the inside, ends up on the outside, plays man coverage,

now is playing on the outside more zone coverage. And he was asked about San Ristill and the, you know, where he envisions San Ristill landing positionally. Here's what Quinn said. I know it's probably out of necessity due to injuries, but, you know, Mike Stainer still has been playing outside for a few weeks now. Do you feel like that's sort of the future for him is settling back into that spot compared to the nickelback? Right. It's a good question. One that we're definitely going to have discussions about as we get into the off season. Obviously, like for the rest of this season, that's where it is. But yeah, I want to get his input.

I want to look at it both. And we went through this last year in a way, we did it way earlier and maybe like, hell, maybe like the third game or something in that space. So it's definitely something that we've discussed. We haven't discussed it really with Mike yet as opposed to that, but it's definitely something to discuss for sure. And the nice part right now, the corners, all of them have inside and outside experience. Jonathan does, Noah does, Mike does. So there could even be some times where you move guys around if you wanted to. But it's definitely a topic for discussion postseason. If you didn't know this, San Francisco now has four interceptions on the season, only two behind league leader Kevin Byard. Now, he's tied for sixth

overall. There are a few players with five, and then there are several more with four. But he got his fourth Sunday against the Giants, and I don't think there's any doubt that he's more comfortable in zone coverage, whether it's inside or outside. But Quinn's saying it's definitely a topic for discussion postseason. There are many topics that will be postseason discussions. And as they relate to the defense, I don't know if they begin in terms of personnel before they've figured out who the defensive coordinator is going to be. Because it's not going to be Joe Witt, Jr.

And I don't think it's going to be Quinn taking over defensive coordinator and play calling responsibilities. I don't. He's done it, you know, out of necessity this year. I think it was the right move. It was probably too late. And, you know, the truth is nothing was going to fix this defense, especially after they lost so many players. But, you know, the kind of scheme that gets employed, I think will dictate where Sanra still plays.

But I do think he's more comfortable in zone coverage as a zone corner. And if he's got to play man, it's got to be on the outside at this point, through two seasons nearly complete. He's a better outside man corner than he is an inside man corner. Lots of decisions coming up in this offseason. And the defensive decisions will be numerous. But it starts, man, it's got it, right? With what are we going to do defensively? How are we going to play?

And who's going to lead that for us? Because they do have to find a way to defend Shanahan-style offenses much better. much better than they have this year because it's been a problem for Quinn, you know, and people pointed this out when they hired him because of the last game against Matt Lafleur in the postseason when he was the Cowboys defensive coordinator. But they've got to find a better way to defend some of those offenses that are just plentiful in the NFL right now. If you want to bet on tonight's game or any of the playoff games,

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And the chain is an intro touchdown. That, of course, the legendary voice of the Philadelphia Eagles since 1977. Merrill Reese joins me right now. He'll be in town with the Eagles on Saturday as Washington and Philadelphia face each other for the first of their two head-to-head matchups over the final three weeks of the season. Always great to have Merrill. on the show. Let's start with this. It's been a wild season for your team, moments in which it's looked like last year at the end of the year, and other moments where there have been a lot of

questions as to what the team is and whether or not they're ready for another run. So tell us, where are they right now? What kind of team arrives in Washington on Saturday? Well, they're a very good team. Let me say that right now, but they did go through a spell, a three games fell late, starting with a game in Dallas in which they led a 21-to-nothing lead slip away. So that was a big loss, and then they followed that with a loss on Black Friday against the Chicago Bears. And that game, they were just totally outplayed.

And then they went to California and lost to the Chargers, and a very good game. Jalen Hurts took a lot of blame for that, that wasn't fair because they were drop passes and deflections, and everyone said, well, it was a four-interception game. Maybe two of them were his fault, but that was it. But that was the third, and by this time, all the Chicken Littles had a convention. And they thought that was the end of this season. The sky is certainly falling. But then last week they played the Raiders, and they annihilated them, 31 to nothing.

and not that they beat the Raiders because that's not a big deal, but the way they beat them was very, very impressive. They controlled every aspect of the game. They pushed them all over the place. Jalen Hertz was close to perfect. It was just a tremendous performance by the Eagles that makes me feel that they're back in gear. So last year, Merrill, as you know, three meetings between Washington and Philadelphia, including in the NFC title game.

I think that's one of the reasons we had to wait until this weekend for the first of two matchups. There were expectations that these two games at the end of the year would be meaningful. They're not for our team. What's been your take on our team from up the road? The truth of the matter is your team is going to get better fast because your laps this year is more injury created than anything else. you have a good coach, you have a bright young quarterback. You've got a lot of good things about your team.

They just got hit hard by injuries, that's all. No doubt. That's a huge reason for why it's gone the way it's gone. Back to your team, because, you know, last year was not a smooth start-to-finish dominant year. There were a lot of ups and downs, and really, you know, Barclay was incredible all season, but it was really when that defense became. that dominant defense later in the season and then throughout the playoffs, that you became a Super Bowl contender and eventually a Super Bowl champion. You've been on the call now

for all of these last four, five, six years of Super Bowl contention. You know what one looks like. So are the Eagles capable of becoming a Super Bowl contender? Again, they've been that at various times this year, but do they look Super Bowl ready in terms of a run to you? You know, I'd like to answer that question next week. I really will, but I haven't a chance to evaluate what they do against the commanders on Saturday night because that will give me more of an indication, because as I said, they were terrific against the Raiders, but the Raiders are still the Raiders. But it was certainly a good feeling.

But I want to see if they can sustain that. I don't think it's any secret that the biggest difference in this team between last year and this year is last year they had the best offensive line in the National Football League, bar none. I mean, that offensive line opened gaping holes for Sacon Barclay, and he exploded for over 2,000 yards. This year, injuries have had a big part to play. Number one, Cam Juergens, the center, talented center. came into the season off of back operation, back injury, and rehab.

Landon Dickerson, the guard, came in. He had had back surgery and knee problems. And then Lane Johnson went down several weeks ago with a Liz Frank fracture. Now, Liz, he is coming back. Lane Johnson at some point, we'll be back. It was a sprain more than a full tear. So he's been rehabbing. it wouldn't shock me if he's back this Saturday.

Don't know for sure, and I'm not getting any indication from the team. But frankly, last night I watched the latest episode of Hard Knock. Yeah. And there was a whole segment on Lane Johnson rehab. And it looked to me the way he was putting pressure on that foot, that he's going to be back sooner than later. So that's a big difference because there's not a better tackle in the National Football League than Lane Johnson. And the other guy who's playing really well is Jordan Milata. He's just an outstanding

player. And then you have Tyler Steen, who is a first-year starter. So that is the biggest question mark, the offensive line. If it can come together and Lane Johnson's coming back is going to give them a big boost, then everything else, including the effectiveness of Sequin Barclay is going to come of the play. I think one of the most stunning results for me this year was the Black Friday game against Chicago. Not that Chicago won the game, but the way they won the game, rushing for 281 yards with two backs going for more than a hundred in that game. Now, I know you had Jalen Carter in that game and haven't had him since. Is that right now in Achilles, heel for Philadelphia stopping the run?

Well, it's more of a killer with Carter. Because Carter played in that game, and he was really hurt. And right after that game, he went and had some kind of a non-surgical procedure, but in both shoulders, he wasn't able to operate anywhere near full strength. But again, they anticipate that he's going to be back for the playoffs. I have a feeling it was something like a

a plate-lit, rich blood treatment that they have. And I have a feeling he'll be back, and he's a great player. He's a really great player. And you're getting a lot now from the Kobe Dean, who missed early in the season. He's been outstanding. Zach Bourne is a great player. You're getting a lot from the secondary now. Dori Jackson, who they got as a free agent from the Giants,

is coming along early in the season. He really struggled. He did. But he's playing good football now. And let me tell you, the other corners, they're just, Cooper DeGine is outstanding. And it's just really nice to see the way this team has come along in the secondary. They're good. They're really good.

You know, last year after the Green Bay game, Nucoby Dean didn't play against the Rams, didn't play against the Redskins, didn't play against the Chiefs in the Super Bowl. and you see what that loss. I mean, the defense was still so dominant, but they did it without Nikobie Dean. What's the acquisition of Jalen Phillips meant to this defense? Well, he's been good.

He's been very, very good. He's certainly an excellent pass rusher. And don't forget, their other corner, their other corner is really as close as you can get to a shutdown corner. You can think of the great corners over the years. He looks like he's going to be up there with those guys. Quignon-on-Mitchell. I mean, he's only in a second year.

He's just great, Kevin. He is that good. He is maybe this year he'll be a pro bower, but he plays at a pro bowl level. There are many better corners in the league than he is. Well, look, there aren't many questions about Philadelphia defensively when they're healthy. And if they're getting Jalen Carter back for the playoffs, look out because they're a much better team with Jalen Carter. offensively. You know, and I'll tell you something else in my career,

I have been fortunate to be around some amazing defensive coordinators. I mean, Bud Carson should be in the Hall of Fame. He was one of the best. Don't forget, he was the architect of the Steel Curtain. But Bud Carson was one of the best. And then, you know all about Jim Johnson

and what a great defensive coordinator he was. But I'm going to tell you, that right in that same class is Vic Vancio. Phenomenal. He's really special. You know, we haven't... And then you could almost add, even though he was the head coach,

Buddy Ryan, of course. Was a great defensive coach. Yeah, I mean, some of those battles between Gibbs and Buddy Ryan and Richie Pettibone for our teams in the glory years with Gibbs. Richie, I think a lot of us believe,

like, you know, Bud Carson believers do that Richie should be in the last. the Hall of Fame as well. So offense, though, is where everybody, you know, talks about Philadelphia and wonders whether or not it will work. In one week, it looks good. The next week, it doesn't. So let's just start with the quarterback. By the way, I agree with you. I watch that Charger game. You know, he got credited with four picks, and I didn't think two of them. I mean, I thought A.J. Brown should have pulled in that one touchdown pass that was right in his hands. But early in the game, there was the first series, Jalen hit him and stride, and he kind of missed it by a yard or two.

But that was a gorgeous pass. And then the one late in the game in the corner of the end zone, that should have been caught. And then one over the middle was off his palms. And he took the blame. He didn't take the shot from that. He said it was my fault. Yeah. But it was.

And Jalen got killed. I mean, there were a lot of people saying he should be benched. Let me tell you something. You know, five or ten years from now, when you look back at what Jalen Hurts has done, I think he's going to be remembered as the greatest quarterback in modern Eagles history. He's really outstanding. I'll tell you what, I thought the best throw he made all night was the third and 16 throw to Smith in overtime. I mean, that was a big-time clutch-tight window throw.

And I thought at that point, you know, because I talked, I talked. talk about Jalen Hertz. We all do, and I've always said this. Look, he has played his best football in the biggest games his teams have played. You go back to that first Super Bowl that they lost to the Chiefs. He outplayed Mahomes in that game. He was the best quarterback in that Super Bowl. And then last year, when they needed him, yeah. He outplayed Mahomes four straight times. Yeah. So there's no concern. I mean, you feel like Jalen Hurts? when we get to the postseason, because the Eagles are going to be there. They'd have to lose out, and the Cowboys would have to win out.

They're going to host a game as a three- or a four-seed, worst-case. I hate to assume anything. Don't forget, I grew up as a kid with the 64 Phillies, who were two weeks to play, had a 10-game lead, and blew it. Well, this one's not going to happen. I feel pretty confident. I don't think it's going to happen. Okay, I don't think it's going to happen.

But that's why, Kevin, that makes this game so big for the Eagles. Because let's just say, and I think they're in good shape, but let's just say for argument's sake, they slipped up this week, and the commanders who have done some very good things, had a great game against Denver, and Mariotta can play pretty well. The best of Mariotta is good enough to beat anybody. So let's just say they slipped up next week. I know where you're going with this.

Buffalo, yeah. And they might be the best team in football right now. So they've got to go to Buffalo. And then the final week, they've got to play Washington again. Yeah. So if Dallas beats the Chargers, Dallas is Washington and New York in Dallas. Yep. Now, I think they're on the road for those.

Yeah, they finish on the road for both of them, yeah. On the road. But it becomes, do you really want to go into the 17th game needing it? So, again, I feel good about the Eagles, but I'm not prepared to say the race is over. Because if you analyze all the things that can happen, and you have my frame of reference, or the frame of reference for people who grew up here and have seen. defeat snacks from the jaws of victory.

You tend to be a little more conservative than your approach. Well, you're the guy that called the Miracle and the Metal Lands part one and part two, but you know, the part one being way back in the late 70s, I actually had Herm Edwards, Merrill, on the show maybe two or three weeks ago

and we talked about that play, the fumble that he picked up and scored on against the giants at the end. But, you You were on the call of that play, right? Yeah, well, every time I see Herman, I told him I'm the one who made him famous. Yeah. Like Herm said, basically, from that point forward, it was no more, you know, runs to run the clock out.

They didn't knee them out back then, but the quarterback would just kind of take it and fall down. Right. Yeah, in the backfield. So back to Hertz and A.J. Brown in particular. From afar, it just seems like they're always at odds, that there's an ongoing sort of confrontational state between the two. What is it for somebody like you who's there every day? No, there really isn't anything. You hear all this stuff about AJ and the social media.

He shouldn't be doing that. But in the locker room, he's fine, everybody likes him. He's a good guy. He just has his whole thing I'm always open and that's AJ but there's no there's no anger

there's no controversy between Jalen and AJ you saw them hug after that touchdown last week how is it going for Hertz with another new offensive coordinator this year Kevin Petulow it's basically I think been

you know a different coordinator every year right every year but you know I have to tell you about offensive coordinators. And Kevin Petullo was a very, very bright, qualified guy. But many, many years ago, I don't know if I ever told you this story. This is many years ago. Early in my career, the Eagles' offensive guru was Sid Gilman, who was one of the most brilliant offensive people. He invented the West Coast offense. And we were saying at the Crystal

City Marriott prior to a game with Washington. And I saw, and I was always bothering Sid asking him to explain this to me and explain that to me and I was in the lobby of the hotel and I saw Sid and I said Sid can you tell me how you use the hash marks in your West Coast offense and he had about it with my questions he said Merrill sit down

so he sat me down on a sofa in the lobby and he said tomorrow we're going to play the commanders except he didn't say commanders he called by the role they said we're going to play the tomorrow. And we know exactly what's going to happen. First of all, you go into a stadium, and there are 60,000 offensive geniuses sitting in the stands. They don't know a thing about defenses, but they know they're all offensive geniuses. They think they invented offense.

He said, we're going there tomorrow, and we know exactly what Washington's going to do. They're going to give the ball a 44 and run the countertray. We know that. And you know what? we're still going to have our backsides handed to us because we can't stop it. He said, it's all about execution. Every once in a while you surprise somebody or you do something that's out of what's expected. He said, and you can get away with it. He said, but basically, everybody knows what they're doing tomorrow. Everybody knew that Jerry Rice was going to run a quick slam,

and Joe Montana was going to hit him, and he'd run for 60 yards. everybody knew even further back that Fuzzy Thurston and Jerry Kramer were going to sweep and they pitched the ball to Paul Horning and they'd run the Packers would run student body right he said it's all about execution play calling is overrated that's so interesting first of all I did not remember that Sid Gilman and I just pulled it up was if he was the quarterbacks coach for the Eagles in 7980 and then again in 82 So, you know, at the beginning, the end of sort of Jack Pardy, the beginning of Gibbs here in Washington, but Sid Gilman, you know, Joe Gibbs comes off his coaching tree because, you know, Cori-L was off of

Gilman and Gibbs coached with Cori-L in San Diego before he came to Washington. I mean, he's one of the great innovators of all time, but that's... I heard Bill Walsh say on an interview that he learned the West Coast offense from Sid. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I did not remember that he was with the Eagles, and I'm looking at it. It was the last job he had in the NFL after, I'm assuming at that point, he was already in the Hall of Fame, I would assume. I don't know when he went in.

I don't know what his year was. Yeah. But, boy, I loved Sid. He was a great guy. You know that he went back and lived out in Rancho Mirage, California, and into his 90s, I believe. and into his 90s, teams were still sending him tape and film for him to analyze. That's so interesting. You know, the other thing that you mentioned, it just reminds me, for many years,

you know, I did the pregame show for us on radio, and Sonny Jorgensen came on every single week with me, and I love Sonny. He's, you know, he's the first real star player I can remember when I was a kid. you know, Sonny and Billy in Washington, Billy Kilmer, Sonny Jurgensen, who was a big thing in the 70s on the George Allen teams, you know, are you a sunny guy or a Billy guy? My father was a sunny guy, so I was a sunny guy. So, you know, all those years working with Sunny, and I remember he said something to me one day on the air. He said, you know,

I was listening to you this week on your show. He said, let me just give you some advice. don't question play calling. He said, it's the one thing you can't do because you have no idea. None of your listeners do. Nobody that's not in that organization, in those offensive meetings, in the game plan development. Nobody knows. He said it's the number one thing that bothered him about sort of, you know, pundits and talk radio was when fans or hosts questioned play calling.

And he said, and the truth is, Sonny never did it as a broadcaster. Never questioned play calling. He would analyze the play, but he would never question the play calling. Yeah, interesting. That was my favorite thing when the Eagles played Washington was that I would get to before the game

go over and talk to Sonny and Sam. That was really fun. And they were both great. They were always nice to me. Yeah, it's the legendary. You're to Philly what Frank Herzog, Sonny Jurgensen, and Sam Huff are to longtime Skins fans, because they called those games forever together and through all of the Super Bowl years in the 80s into the 90s. Well, you may not believe this because I have to pinch myself to believe it. this is my 49th year and I'm not going any place

I've got a long-term contract to have my wife is writing a book that will come out in about a year called his story of Merrill's 50 years with the Eagles but that's not God willing I hope to do it for quite a few more years

but the funny thing is would you believe that this is Mike Quicks 26 year doing the car? Amazing amazing So who I have ordered it for 14 years before that. He did. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you know, the story about you taking over in 77 is an

interesting one, and I'm forgetting it right now. Well, it's a tragic one. Right. Yes. Yes. It was a tragic one in that it actually started several years earlier when I wanted an audition to be a summer replacement at WIP. They brought in millions of people. And I I got the job as a summer replacement for Charlie Swift, who was a sports director and played-by-play guy for the Eagles. And so I did that, and from that I moved to the pre-imposed game shows, and I did that. And also, on the last day of the 75 season,

the color man, Al Pollard, was sick. And they told me, instead of going to the studio to the pre-imposed game, to go to the stadium and you're good to do color that day. What had happened the day before that Saturday? I got a call from Ed Coyett. The Eagles were playing the Lions, and Ed Coyett had been the coach that I did the the coaches show with back in 76, or before that. But in 76, he was the defensive line coach for the Lions.

So he called me and said, Merrill, want to have dinner? I said, sure. So I went over and I met him at the Marriott. We had dinner. And we talked for several hours. And he told me all about the Lions. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, this is amazing.

I know all this stuff about the Lions. But all I'm doing is scoreboards and pregame show. I have nothing to use it for. Next morning I get the call to WIP. Go right to the stadium. You're doing color. So I did color for Charlie Swift. And my goodness, if I face it,

on myself, I was really good because I was packed full of information about the lions. Charlie kept looking over me. How'd you know that? How'd you know? He couldn't believe. So then a year goes by, and I'm back doing the pre-imposed game show,

and the, and Al Pollard at the end of that next season, retired. So he wanted to devote time to its other businesses. And instead of going out the normal way and getting an athlete, to be the color commentator

they said we have Merrill he can do this I mean we heard him do a game and so they hired me to do the color in the 77 season and we go through the 77 season there were two games left and then in the middle of the night I got

the tragic call that and I don't to this day know what exactly spurred this on but Charlie took his own life and they told me to go in, and I did the last two games of the 77 season, and by that time, thousands of tapes were arriving from far over the country, and the following spring,

they hired me as the next play-by-play guy and sports director of WIP, and I've been doing the play-by-play ever since. I knew there was a story there, and I appreciate you going through all of it. But, man, it was two really interesting situations and obviously a tragic one there at the end. But you're terrible. You've been incredible doing this. I mean, as an NFC East guy for my entire life, you know, how many times have I heard, you know, an NFL highlight with Merrill Reese's call? We've all heard them.

Are you the longest, at this point, longest tenured, play-by-play guy still active in the NFL? Yes. Yeah. Yes, I am. Brad Sham was with me from the first time when he was doing color for Vern Lundquist when I was doing color for Charlie. And then we both started out doing the play-by-play. But then Brad missed a couple of years and in between where he did the Texas Rangers, but then came back. Okay.

So his were separated by a couple of years. but mine have been continuous, thank goodness. And I love doing it as much as I ever have. Over the years, I've had offers to do television by both networks, and I've had opportunities to do a lot of other teams. But I'm doing what I love.

When I was given the Pink Roselle Award last year in Canton, one of the things I said was, before every game, when I stand for the national anthem, and I still do, and I mean this sincerely, I say two things to myself. I say, there's no place in the world I'd rather be, and there's nothing in the world I'd rather be doing. And that's my philosophy. And believe me, for someone who loves golf as much as I do. Yeah. Those are a pretty big word. That's a pretty big thought. Well, you've been there for, in the last, you know, in the last eight, nine years,

you've been there for some of the biggest games in the sport. And I wish you the best. And when the book comes out, I'll call you up and hopefully you can come on and tell us about it. Yeah, it'll be a year from now. As they say, it's going to be, Cindy just turned it into the publisher this week. Well, we'll talk before then. Because hopefully we won't have to wait until the end of next year for the first of the two games.

well it will be the it will be the Super Bowl next year it'll be the Super Bowl next year okay maybe a little earlier but they say basically it takes about a year from when it goes to the publisher and all the artwork but it's it's not a biography i did that years ago called it's good this is this is the tales of a lot of inside stuff that happened over the past 50 years you're gonna have to put your days at marian unhold gets too cold uh it's too cold uh it's too damp, and you've got big football games to call. So go get them, appreciate it, and enjoy the trip down here in the game on Saturday. Thank you.

I am looking forward to it. My golf is a little bit off, but when we hang up, I think I'll go about a mile from here into a simulator. Those things are fun. They can be addictive, for sure. I know. Thanks, Merrill. Thank you, Kevin.

It's always fun to be on with you. Merrill Reese, everybody, long-time, legendary, iconic voice of the Philadelphia Eagles. Speaking of a legend in this town, Steve Buckhance is one. He will join me next after these words from a few of our sponsors. Guys, personal experience with a product that I want to tell you about, it's zbiotics and their product called pre-alcohol. Let's face it, after a nighted drinks, most at our age anyway, don't bounce back. the next day like we used to, you either have that choice the night before of,

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One of my very first work experiences out of college was to work for one Steve Buckhantz at Fox Channel 5. Many of you know that. I mean, the stable of people that came out of Channel 5. I'm way, way down the list. It's a big tree. It's a long tree, a lot of branches. Buck's got a massive, massive tree that all emanated from whatever the address was on Wisconsin

Avenue right across the street from Rodman's. It was 51-51, Wisconsin Avenue right across from Rodman's. Buck's on with us. And the reason Buck is on with us today is to talk about James Madison, his alma mater. Buck is a massive Madison fan follows every single team I'm sure he's been rooting from a far maybe for Indiana we can ask you about that as well

but typical of us when we do these things there has to be some conversation about Buck's true passion which is aviation Buck is a pilot and Buck can give you information and I can help out a little bit in this area on almost any, you know, plain crash of note in not just American aviation

history, but pretty much world aviation history. And I actually wanted to start with that because did you see the ruling that the government is liable for the crash? The last time you were on with me was after the crash at Reagan last January. Such a tragedy, you know, something that we'll all never forget, you know, that particular day last January. And how about that ruling? Tell me about how unusual that is. Well, you know, I don't know, you know, in past accidents, I don't know how many of them involved the U.S. military. And that's the reason why our government came out and said, hey, we were at fault because not only are we faulting, you know, the helicopter pilots, which, you know, was the Army, but also

somebody in the tower at National Airport is liable for this. And then they mentioned the American Airlines flight, which I don't know how that figures into it, but certainly the military. So I don't know if this is a precedent-setting thing or not, Kevin, but they've admitted that they're liable for the accident or at least they were a part of a cause of it and that they're going to have to pay the plaintiffs who will be the people who families bring a bring litigation the 67 people that perished yeah the families of the 67 people that perished you know right from the jump and i remember it was such um such a such a sad uh day uh night and day and you came on with me and you were incredible actually and just you know you know that airport um just

every part of that airport, and we all learned so much. But, you know, from the jump, you know, you felt like there was a chance that that military helicopter, you know, was flying too high. Yeah. And just by, you know, maybe 100 or 200 feet. Yeah. And then part of it was fate as well, as I sort of diagrammed when we talked after that, that American Airlines, the CRJ, had it been making the straight-in approach to runway one at national airport, which most of the time, all the planes do, but occasionally they'll send them out over what used to be Bowling Air Force Base to make an approach to runway 3-3. And that's what happened here.

And I think by now most people kind of know the diagram of that airport. But had they made the straight-in approach over the Wilson Bridge, it's called the Mount Vernon approach, then obviously this wouldn't have happened, which is really really. sad because again it was just bad luck that they tower asked them to go make that other approach and that does happen it's not like it was against the rules to make that approach that happens quite a bit as a matter of fact but normally you would make a straight and approach and it wouldn't have happened so really was tragic it was horrible horrible you know but I I would imagine and I I didn't spend

a lot of time going over this ruling or the aftermath and I haven't read it but I'm going to guess that when the U.S. government admits liability that those families that are, you know, in litigation, they're going to get paid and they're going to get paid quickly. Like this, and they're going to probably get paid every single cent that they're looking for. I mean, this is the U.S. government. They're going to be able to pay this and pay this out quickly. I mean, it's horrible the whole circumstance, but for the families of those that perished,

It's often, I'm pretty sure, a long drawn out, you know, affair with, you know, assigning blame and is it the manufacturer or is it the airline or is it the airport or whatever it is. But in this particular case, I'm going to guess, I don't know if I'm right or not, but I would imagine the process will go much faster for those, you know. I mean, I'm not a litigator, and I'm like you, I would guess that as well. however there's always seems to be red tape everywhere yeah but dealing with the government and you're right uh that you're right they don't have to figure out who's to blame they know at least admittedly so that the government's come out and said hey you know this was our fault this was our helicopter and he was too high and the guy in the tower now i don't you know i i i didn't see and I hear enough about, because again, the tower operator, and at that time at night, they're doing a couple of different things. It's not like a busy Sunday afternoon. So he's directing this plane to land on runway 3-3, and that's not unusual, and it's not overtaxing anybody. So I'm not sure how they found that controller to be partially at blame, but there's probably more to it than I know. And there's got to be, you know, for him to be at fault. But,

Anyway, it's the whole thing is, but you're right, they probably, there'll probably be a huge settlement and it might happen quickly. Maybe. I don't know. That's what it seemed like when I was thinking about it. I mean, I just think back to, you know, the days that followed and the search for bodies, remember how cold it was during that stretch in January last year. And, you know, some of the, you know, there was a really good story that was written maybe three or four weeks after the accident in the last year. Washington Post. I can't remember who wrote it, but essentially going through the recovery part of it and the people that were involved in the recovery and just how brutal that was in a river that was frigid and with the fuel and the smell of the fuel and what that can do to those that are trying to recover. It was incredibly detailed and really horrifying in many

ways but those first responders man um it's amazing the people that run to those things all you have to do all you have to do is think back to the air florida crash if you want to talk about first responders and and an even worse weather situation that was a driving snowstorm there was ice in the potomac uh people were you know couldn't get get out of the way and you had arlin williams who was passing life preservers to people and then he and then lennie scutnik Lenny Scutnik from Washington Lee High School, my high school in Arlington, right, jumped into the water to save the flight attendant.

So, and the Channel 9 photographer who was there shooting everything was amazing that whole day. And I've watched, sadly, I've watched that air disasters, you know, 15 times. But it's just amazing each time how those first responders, the helicopter pilot who kept, you know, was like feet above the Potomac in a windy day, in a snowstorm. I mean, that whole thing was surreal, but very tragic. I mean, I've watched that air disaster show as well many times. And the last, you know, words from the pilot, you know, Larry, we're going down.

We're going down. Yeah. And I mean, that's so terrifying. So terrifying. But a lot of good came out of that with respect to, you know, de-icing planes, right? Because they didn't de-ice from the moment that it left. left. It was in line too long while the snow was coming down at a hard rate. You can explain that better, but that led to major modifications in the D-8, in the de-icing process, right?

Right, and those pilots were Tampa pilots, so they weren't used to that kind of weather, and they thought they could get it done, and they got behind a plane in front of them, hoping that the exhaust would clear off the snow and the ice, and they set there, it's called an Iper bug, it's an engine pressure ratio, And they didn't set it high enough because they thought they had plenty of power, and they didn't. And by the time they went to full power, it was too late. They were barely climbing, and they stalled going over that bridge. So, yeah, that did change a lot of the de-icing stuff.

Everything's been advanced so much further technologically-wise. But I've been on many planes that get de-iced. A lot of the Wizards charters, when we were up in Toronto or Detroit, or, you know, Minnesota, where it's, always snowing and freezing, you're always getting de-iced. But you've got to get out of there within 20 minutes or you've got to do it again. You were on all those flights with the team, all those years and calling the games with Phil. Was there ever, you know, a flight that didn't go smoothly that you had to calm everybody down? Or go ahead. Yes. I don't know about calming everybody down, but there were at least two or three incidents that were fairly harrowing.

One of them was going into Boston on a really windy day, and we were making our final approach, and the plane basically turned almost 90 degrees to the side, and then back. And you heard, you know, people were screaming ballplayers, you know, a couple of people threw up and that kind of thing. The worst one was we were coming back from over. Oklahoma City. Well, wait a minute. You landed safely, obviously. But when you, when you, I mean,

was there like an exhale? Was there cheering when the plane landed? It was more like shock. I don't think anybody cheered. They were just like, Jesus, we're down, you know, that kind of thing. Do you remember if they covered that night? All right. Okay. Oklahoma City. That was the worst one. We were. They were having a tremendous lightning and rainstorm. I forget what month it was. So when we got to the airport and we're all on a team bus,

we actually had to sit on the bus because what happens is you pull up to the fixed-based operation, the FBO, you know, whether it's signature aviation or Atlantic or whatever it happens to be. And you pull up there and then they make everybody go through the hangar to do a quick security check. This, of course, is after 9-11. We used to never do it before that. and you just go through it, and they just check it, and it's kind of innocuous. And then you walk out to the plane. Well, it was raining so hard that we couldn't get off the bus.

I mean, there was a plane I saw not far from where we were parked, and I thought it was going to tip over. It was a single-engine plane. So it was a storm that was going through from west to east. So it passed through enough to where we could get off the bus and not get soaking wet and go into the hangar and then come out and get on the plane. Well, once we got on the plane, we then had to fly back through that storm. And I'm telling you for about 20 minutes, people were screaming.

You had guys turning green. It was, it was, you know. Just because of the turbulence. Yes, it was as turbulent as any flight I've ever been on. You could feel yourself dropping. You could, you know, and those planes are amazing how the wings stay on them. But you fly to tenets. were screaming, it was really...

Flight attendants were screaming? Oh, yeah, yeah. It was bad. Oh, my God. See, that would be it... Once flight attendants start getting nervous, and if they're screaming, I would assume I'm going to die. Well, being a pilot, I know more than they do,

so I didn't think we were going to die, but you know, you just have to get through it without throwing up. and, you know, there was never a time when I thought we were going down, but it was just the worst turbulence. It was what we call severe turbulence. There's light turbulence, there's moderate, and then there's severe, and this was severe. Yeah. So what was the third, you know, harrowing experience? We were landing in Orlando, and again, it was so windy that the pilot couldn't get the plane down, and we had to go around. Now, that's not real unusual. Plains make go-arounds all the time,

but it was so windy that he could not get the plane down and we went around and then came back around and landed but those were the three that I'll always remember do you remember the players that didn't handle it well versus those that did can we name names or not I want to say this was I believe it was the Wal-Beal error and then the Orlando one would have been

the, and the Boston one would have been the big three, Gilbert and Karan and Antoine, and Haywood. So how did Gil handle these situations? Not well. Not well. I'm telling you, I saw some of these brothers were green. You know, it was unbelievable. And Ray Blatch was like hanging on to the ceiling, I think. Oh, my God.

You know, all those years before. I got to know you and I was on the road five, six days a week for about 10, 12 years and I had a few of those. I've had a few of the when you land and then go right back up because there's like a plane on the runway that shouldn't be in that

spot. Those are always dicey. But the worst was, I'll never forget Portland, Oregon, to Chicago United Flight, DC-10. DC-10s are still around, aren't they, or not? They don't fly many of them. That was a plane, you know, that went down in I know the Sioux City one

and the plane just dropped I mean thousands of feet unexpected I mean people you weren't sitting in seatbelts they kind of you know went up and down yeah and the you know the oxygen masks dropped in the whole thing and you know

it was it was terrifying everybody thought the plane was going down well it levels off and I'll never forget this we land in Chicago at O'Hare, and we get off the plane, and the pilot's door is just shut. There's no, no one's asking any, everybody wants to know what the F happened, but there was nobody there to explain it. I think I followed up, and I remember, you know, reaching out to United, and they said that

there was, you know, a pressure drop and that the plane dropped like six or seven thousand feet in just a few seconds from, you know, 33,000 to 25,000 or whatever it was. But I don't know what the reasons were why. I remember not knowing much other than that and that, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal. Well, it was a big deal to everybody on the plane. It was terrifying. There are a lot more communicative, communicative now, the pilots, if you've noticed, I'm sure you've flown.

You know, they come out of the cockpit, they address you, you can see them. a lot of times. And it's great. I find that reassuring. But the other thing I would tell passengers, like when they tell you to keep your seatbelt fashion when you're in the plane, you know, when they're flying, do it. Yeah. Because if something like that happens, you can come out of your seat. Right. And then the other thing I would tell people is, when you take off or landing, but especially take off, pull that thing as tight as you can to where it's uncomfortable. Pull your seatbelt tight. Because if a pilot has to abort the take off, he's going to slam on the brakes and everybody's going to be going forward with G-Force.

So I pull it as tight as I can, whoever I'm flying with, I pull their thing tight, and then once you get airborne, you know, you can loosen it up. But don't leave it loose like that. Get that thing tied across your lap. It's true what they say about that. Have you been flying recently? Have you had an incident when you're the pilot? Has anything scary ever happened? Do I have? Now, you know, going way back, because I got my license. Yeah.

I'm not sure you were born, Kevin. It was 1976 when I got my license. I was born. Okay. And I got it with my ex-brother-in-law, my sister's ex-husband. We got our license together, learned out of Manassas. And, yeah, I had a couple of pretty good ones. One of them, I was making a trip from Manassas to, I think I was going to Frederick

Maryland. They're called cross-country trips, but they're not really cross-country. They're just when you're a student pilot and you have to make a flight plan and execute it and fly by yourself to an airport like that or might be Norfolk, or it could be Charlottesville, whatever. And they call them cross-country. So I was flying to Frederick, and I was coming back, and I had dialed into my avionics, a thing called a V-O-R. It's a navigational aid. We don't use them much anymore now because now everything's just.

GPS, which is incredible. But back then, there was no GPS. So I've got this thing centered towards a VOR called Armel, which is at Dulles Airport. And I'm flying to Dulles Airport. You got your little needle centered, and you keep that needle centered with the frequency for Armel, the Dulles Airport, and you fly right to it. You keep that needle centered. If the needle starts to swing, you've got to move to stay on track. So I'm flying, and I get near Dulles. Now, again, this is before anything we have now, which is Class B airspace, and Washington, which is the most restricted airspace in the country. Because we have something here called a SIFRA, a special flight rules area. That's 30 miles around the White House. And Dulles is in that

area. Okay. They didn't have any of that back then, so I didn't have to worry about flying, like, near Dulles. So I'm flying towards Dulles, and the air traffic controller says to me, Cessna 6-5-6-5 Gulf of, you know, fly north of the airport. Well, hell, Kevin, I didn't know what north of the airport was. I just knew that I had to keep that needle-centered to get the Dulles Airport, or I'm going to get lost. So I'm flying, and I'm coming up on Dulles Airport, and the next thing I know, the controller comes on, and he says, Cessna 65-65-Gulf, he says, you see the DC-9 coming off the runway at your 3 o'clock position,

I looked out to my right and I see this Eastern DC-9 basically coming right at me. And I said, yeah, I have them. And then I hear him say, Eastern 490, you see the Cessna 150 at your 12 o'clock? I hear the pilot say, yeah, I got him. He says, maintained visual separation. He flew under me. And then the air traffic controller came back on and he said, Cessna 65-6-5 Gulf. He says, next time I tell you to fly north of the airport, you fly north of the airport.

I was like, Hamana, Hamma, man, I got back to Man, I had to change my own. underwear. It was unbelievable. But that was the scariest one. There was another one I was coming back from Ocean City in a plane, a Grumman, which is, again, a single-engine four-seater, had a couple people with me. And all of a sudden, my gas gauges go to zero. Yeah. Both of them. And now I had looked, when you pre-flight the plane, you look in the gas tank to make sure you got fuel in there. So I knew I had fuel, and I couldn't figure out what it was. I had an electrical failure and I flew and I was able to get back to Manassas via what we call dead reckoning, which is just basically, I'd made the trip so many times. You know, you're just looking at

landmarks and stuff like that. And then I had one just a few weeks ago flying out of Leesburg with a friend and I flew out and we went over towards Martinsburg and then came back. It was just a short trip, maybe 50 minutes or so. And the same thing happened. I had a an electrical failure, which doesn't have anything to do with fly in the plane. It doesn't. So an electrical... Oh, okay, got it. Yeah.

Planes fly on gas, right? Yeah, it's a motor. It runs. But what about radar? What about, you know, all of the navigational stuff when you have an electrical failure? The electrical, yes, that definitely affects your radios and some of your avionics. So my radio screens went blank, basically. Now, I still had radio contact.

But I thought I was talking to Leesburg Tower because that's what I was tuned into. But I couldn't see there was nothing on my screens. So I physically couldn't program in a certain frequency. And I called Leesburg Tower. And what I found out was when you have an electrical failure like that, as the battery gets lower, it automatically shifts the frequency to an emergency frequency called Guard, which is 1 to 1 to 1.1.5. But again, I didn't know I was on that because I had no visual reference on my screen. And I called Leesburg Tower, and a guy comes back and he says, this is guard, and what's your problem?

And it turns out it was another pilot who, I think he was like 80 miles away. And he heard me. And I said, listen, I have no ability to contact the tower. Will you contact them for me? And they did. And so Leesberg knew I was coming in. And then I got a green light from the tower. They actually have a light in there.

and if you get a green light, they know you know that you're cleared to land, and I landed, and that was it. It was just some kind of a malfunction in the plane was an electrical failure, but it was, you know, I made it back. I mean, okay. So do you, in that moment,

when you have an electrical failure? Do I panic? No. Okay. What about the person, you said there was somebody flying with you, a friend was flying with you. Did he or she get nervous? No, they were in shock, I believe.

Yeah. They're not going up with you the next time. Kevin, will you ever come up with me or not? You've asked me to do that before. I mean, after these last few stories, I don't know. I mean, you've scared this shit out of everybody that's listening. I took two of my buddies down to Harrisonburg, two of my JMU buddies that live up here. Right.

Billy Don and Bill O'Donnell And we got in a plane And we flew down to Harrisonburg And our other friend Dave O'Donnell Who was a judge in Harrisonburg for about 40 years Which is stunning to think about He picked us up We went to get Jess's chili dogs

Which is if you know anything about the Berg They used to have the best Chili dogs ever And while they don't have Jesses anymore They have a place called Little Gus's And we got our chili dogs And then we flew back We flew over James Madison

and we took some neat pictures and flew back to Leesburg, and it was the best $560 chili dog I've ever had. I'll tell you what, if I fly with you, it's going to be for more than chili dogs. We're going maybe up to Atlantic City or something like that. That sounds good. One of these days I'll do it. I wouldn't be afraid of doing it with you.

I'd feel very comfortable because I know how long you've been doing it, and now that I know you've weathered many a storm, although maybe the next one is the one. Who knows? Well, let's hope not. Yeah, let's hope not. All right, let's talk about James Madison heading out to Oregon to play a playoff game on Saturday night.

We'll do that with Buck right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's talk about your football team. First of all, like when Virginia's playing Duke in the ACC, title game. I mean, that thrill of Duke winning that game, because that's how JMU got in, because Duke became a conference champion that wasn't, you know, good enough to make and wasn't ranked higher than JMU.

But I'm assuming that you watch that game and you were, you know, beside yourself and hoping that, yeah. Yeah. Not to mention it's UVA going down. Absolutely. We got to love that, you know, because the last time we played them, we beat them. Yeah.

That was when Signetti was coaching. Right. So, yeah, and I've got a threat of about nine guys. They're all JMU guys, and we go back and forth during games. Last night, I was back and forth during the JMU old Dominion basketball game. But, yeah, it was awesome. And, you know, you're right. That was the only way JMU could get in was for Duke to beat Virginia.

And so when they did that, it was like, oh, my God. Because we really didn't think was going to happen, first of all. Virginia was a better football team. And then they came out with the announcement, you know, that we were in. And, you know, listen, I understand the people that say Madison has no business being in there. They're not one of the 12 best teams in the country, and I get that. They're not one of the best 12 teams in the country. There are other teams that could be there that are better than JMU is.

But because of the ruling that said you've got to take one from the group of five, then they're in and you know maybe what I'm hoping Kevin is that they just that they're competitive because you know I've seen this movie before I mean even just two years ago when they

went to their first bowl game okay that was when Signetti left before the bowl game to go to Indiana which that's got to stop you can't have these coaches the worst before that sucks so he was gone and he took a bunch of guys with him you know we didn't have our quarterback we didn't have guys playing

and it sucked. So we're playing Air Force in this bowl game. Now, of course, they run the triple option just like Navy and Army, and nobody can stop it. So we go into that game, and James Madison is ranked number one in the country and run defense, given up 57 yards a game on the run, a rush. On the first play from scrimmage, Air Force ran for 64 yards on a touchdown and finished, I think, that day with 300 yards rushing. So, you know, and not that that's a different level. That's not a different level, but Oregon is a different level. And Georgia is a different level. And Alabama is a different level. And these schools are, you know, we're a really, really good mid-major. And that's the curse of James Madison, because as you can see, we can't

keep anybody, okay? We lost our first football coach. Well, we lost many. But we lost Signetti, obviously. And nobody blames to me. He was making, I don't know, like, I don't know, six, $700,000, $700,000 at Madison. He goes to Indiana for $4 million. They go $11.00 and $0, they double his salary to $8 million a year. And then he does what he does, and they sign him to a $90 million contract. He took 13 of our players with them, and they're all, if you look at Indiana, the number one ranked team in the country, their impact players all came from James Madison.

Elijah Surat, the wide receiver, Klon Black, the running back, Pons, a defensive back, Aidan Fisher, a linebacker. These guys all played at Madison. So he goes and he makes a lot of money. We get this guy, Bob Chesney, who's a nice guy, good coach. I met him. He's a fired up guy. He's a type A guy. Pretty good coach. They go 12 and 1 this year. He's gone. He's gone to UCLA. You know, when you're a good mid-major like Madison is you can't, because we can't pay these guys what everybody else can pay him. It's just, we're not there yet, and it's going to be a long time. So we're mired in this, I call it the mid-major curse. And now, Chesney managed to get some kids that could play,

and they went 12 and 1, their only loss was to Louisville. And they were in that. They should have won that. They were tied going into the fourth quarter. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, like I said, I hope that, because I don't have a foul at Oregon, I know they're really good. But I just hope that we are competitive in the game, and they don't get blown out, because if they do, then everybody that said they shouldn't be there will be like, see, I told you, they shouldn't be there.

But, you know, they're a nice team, they're a good team, their quarterbacks, good, he's decent. They get this one kid who's really good, Wayne Knight, who's the running back, who's like 5'7, he's really fast, and that's their biggest weapon. Right. But other than that, you know, they're just a good team, but they're not on that level of the big-name teams now. We'll see what happens Saturday night. Did you think Signetti was going to, I mean, nobody thought he could do what he did, but were you a believer that he would get it done at a much higher level? No, well, will you say much higher level? Indiana's a basketball school.

Yeah, I know. You're right. You're right. I mean, nobody looked at them. as a football school. So I didn't know that he could do what he did at Indiana. I mean, I don't think anybody did. Now, again, he took a bunch of our players with them,

and they're good players, and I think he's a good coach. And when all of my JMU buddies, we have mixed emotions about Indiana. We like to see our ex-players doing well, and I speak for myself and the guys on my thread, because I've read a lot of JMU text where people are like, oh, we're so happy for coach and everything. We don't like the guy, okay?

He's cocky. He left before the bowl game. That's bullshit. You don't do that. And he did it. And now there was somebody that said, well, he had to leave because if he didn't leave, he was outside the window of the portal and he couldn't recruit, which is possible.

That's possible. And I've interviewed him because I did some of their football games. and I've talked to him and it had one-on-one interviews with him. You know, and I found him to be, I liked him because a matter-of-fact guy. Yeah. But he's cocky as hell. You heard what he said when he went to Indiana. Right.

They said, who's Gertzignetti? He said, I win, Google me. Yeah. That's the kind of guy he is. Now, I respect him. I think he's a hell of a coach, but I can just tell you that none of my guys root for him because of the way he kind of dissed JMU when he left and all of that. It wasn't a good deal.

but, you know, he's done something right with those guys at that school, and their quarterback's pretty good, so who knows? Madison's had some really good teams since moving up to this level of college football. Do you think this is the best team to take on Oregon, or would it have been one of the previous teams? Yeah, I think actually the year of Signetti left, I think that team was a better team. Because these, you know, the conference, the teams they play it, I think they had a strongest schedule. The teams at the time were much better. Like, for years, JMU

couldn't beat Appalachian State. I mean, when they had Game Day, ESPN Game Day at Madison, and I think you saw at the end of the year when Scott Yep, I remember that. They voted Madison as the best game day in the whole country. We had 26,000 people at that game day.

Then they went out and shit the bed and lost to App State. So we couldn't beat them for years now. They're down now. And we beat them bad this year and beat Marshall and beat all the other good teams in the Sunbelt, but the Sunbelt was pretty weak this year. So that's where that strength, the schedule comes in, and that's where everybody disses JMU and says, hey, they didn't play anybody. Well, they pretty much didn't, except for Louisville. So, you know, I think that

his team that year, when he left, and they went to the Air Force, played Air Force, and the bowl game, military bowl, I think that team was actually better, because they had those players. Yeah. They had all those players that Indiana has now. Right. So that team, I think, was better. This team is good, good enough to go through the conference and beat everybody, and, you know, go 12 and 1, and that's a nice record. I mean, what they've done, Kevin, when you think about the fact that, what, four years ago, they're in the FCS, or five years or whatever it was, and a dominant FCS program.

Yeah, two national championships in that program. The only team they had trouble with, obviously, was North Dakota State. And they're like a pro team. but they, yeah, they, they, you know, went through that, and they made the move up. And, of course, remember the first year, they couldn't play in a bowl game. And then the second year, they weren't supposed to be eligible for a bowl game either, but they got in because they weren't enough to lose. Exactly. And that's when they played Air Force in, yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. And now last year they played Western Kentucky, I think it was in the Boca Raton Bowl, which is fine with me, because I went there. Yeah. And that's a great place to have a game. But, and this year I think they would have got a really good bowl game, too, or at least a decent one, I hope. But now they're in this, you know, football playoffs, and it's a whole different. The attention and the hype and the recognition that they've received is phenomenal. I mean, nobody really talked about it.

When I went to school there, it was Madison College. And our basketball team, which was good, you know, went to the NCAA tournament three years in a row under Lou Campanelli and won in the first round each year. year. They used to call us the best team you never heard of. And they've come a long way from that, you know, from that moniker. And to think what they've done really is phenomenal. It really is because you didn't put them on the same level with UVA and Virginia Tech. Now Tech doesn't want to play us. They might have to, we're supposed to play them next year, and they have to dump one of their games because they've got too many on the schedule, and everybody's saying it's going

be JMU and they're also supposed to play Old Dominion who beat them this year. They don't want any part of JMU, I'm sure, because it's like a no-win situation. Yeah, right. So, Maryland and Georgetown playing basketball. Well, they're doing it now. They're going to do it now, and they did it this year. Unfortunately, they did it this year because Georgetown won. So what would be an acceptable result for you? Well, I've talked to some people, and I, you know, the spread is like 21 points. An acceptable game for me to be, would be that at halftime it's, it's not a blowout, that at halftime it's, you know, reasonable.

And even if they lost by 20 points, you know, 20 points is not that big if you're in the game, so to speak, you know, if you're making a name for yourself, if you're playing fairly well. But if you're just getting beat down and you're giving up big plays left and right and just getting blown out, then that's bad. So I just, like I said to you before, I'd like to see them be competitive to be able to, you know, to move the ball, to not get just shut down completely. And, you know, you never know with a team like Oregon. They may be able to do that. Yeah. So that would be acceptable for me, for them to, sorry, to just be competitive in this

game. All right. Great job. Appreciate it. Good luck. I mean, I think, everybody, you know, in this situation, I'm rooting for Madison, it would be one of the all-time great stories. It would be, if they pulled it off, it would be one of the all-time great, all-time upsets in sports history, certainly college football history. I think that Appalachian State win in Ann Arbor, which, you know, what is it now, 20 years ago, something like that. That was number one. Yeah. And you know what number two was? Number two is James Madison beating Virginia Tech in 2010 in Blackburg. If you

remember that, Tech came up here at FedEx Field and played Boise State and lost. Right. And then went down to Blacksburg to play Madison and looked past them. They weren't even thinking about JMU and Madison beat them. And I tell all of my tech friends, because

I got a bunch of guys that went to tech. And I say, hey, man, this spawned one of the great jokes of all time, which is how many batteries does it take to light Blacksburg, Virginia. One, AA. How good is that? It's good. It's good.

All right, good luck. Enjoy it. Wait, are you going? No, I'm not going to go to this. It's a long way, and I'll watch it on TV. You know, I like to hear the announcers. You know, when they're on ESPN, you... Yeah, right. Yes, yeah, sure. The guys are good, man. The announcers are good. I like listening to them. So I'll sit in the comfort of my own home with my...

thread of nine jam you guys and we'll go crazy watching this game i just hope it's a good one uh thanks for doing this as always no problem kevin good luck stay healthy happy holidays happy holidays to you too and good luck tomorrow night saturday night uh thanks buck appreciate it yep steve buck ants everybody uh always great to have buck on the show all right back tomorrow j gruden will be on the show smell test picks preview washington Billy a pick. Football Friday tomorrow.