The Kevin Sheehan Show - "We Got Ourselves A Dude"

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Kevin opened with NBA Game 7s before getting to ESPN's Jeremy Fowler's report that the word out of Washington privately about Jayden Daniels is that "we got ourselves a dude". Kevin talked the Commanders' front office hires and then welcomed Logan Paulsen onto the show to get his insight on what he's seen so far from Rookie Mini-Camp and OTAs. Eric Flack/WUSA-9 jumped on to talk about his report that DC will have be challenged financially to bring the football team back to DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Logan Paulson will be with us in the next segment. Love when Logan is on the show.

Logan was at rookie minicamp. He was at the OTA days last week. We'll get his perspective on what he saw specifically Jaden Daniels up close and personal for the first time. but a lot more than just the rookie quarterback. Logan Paulson in the next segment, followed by Eric Flack from WUSA Channel 9. Eric is the chief investigative reporter for Channel 9.

We've had Eric on the show before. Eric wrote a story over the weekend describing the challenge the city will have in bringing the football team back to the RFK site. We're not talking about the RFK site bill, which still needs to go through the Senate, most people think it will, but what happens after that bill is passed? And the city is able to negotiate with the football team to bring them home.

Eric thinks it will be a challenge and reported on that over the weekend. He will join us after Logan Paulson. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, is Windonation. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Windonation.com. mention my name for a free, no risk, no obligation in-home estimate. I want to start quickly with the two game sevens from yesterday and last night, and I'll start with the game last night in Denver. Denver had a 20-point lead in the third quarter, and they were down by 10 with two

and a half minutes to go. A 30-point turnaround. round. It's the biggest deficit in NBA game seven history for a team to come back from. Minnesota did it. They won the game 98 to 90 to win their third game in Denver in the series and win the series four games to three. It was really an amazing game because there was no indication when Denver took a 58 to 38 lead early in the third quarter that Minnesota has. had enough to come back. They were struggling offensively. They were struggling to stop Denver at the time. Jamal Murray had 24 points in the first half. Yokic had a double double in the first half,

and Denver was rolling. And then things changed. And the best defensive team in the NBA during the regular season, they actually made a couple of shots, which I think really loosened them up. They Conley hit a couple of shots. and they got the lead down to 12, and all of a sudden their defense became like it was in the first two games of the series, suffocating. And they wore Denver out. Yokic played all but one minute in the game.

He was shot at the end of the game, totally gassed. Murray ran out of gas. He played 43 of the 48 minutes. The team that plays in the Mile High City, they were the ones that had nothing left. Minnesota, with some of their youth and some of their size, man, whether it was Carl Anthony Towns, who was outstanding in the game. Nas Reid, I thought, was the total difference maker off the bench in the fourth quarter in the second half, really.

Rudy Gobert got benched early in the third quarter. They actually made the initial run without him in the game. back into the game and he played well. Anthony Edwards was six of 24 from the field, 16 points, but his defense was big time and he hit some big, meaningful shots. I thought Jaden McDaniels, that's not Jaden Daniels, Jaden McDaniels, their first round pick back in 2020 as a 19-year-old. I thought he was incredible. I think he's been incredible throughout the playoffs. It was just, I couldn't believe what I was watching. I mean, this lead evaporate, a 20-point lead, that game seemed like it was over.

And I was rooting for Denver. But I'm so impressed with Minnesota. So the idea of watching them moving forward, I'm excited about, I just wanted to see Yokic for another series or two. And I wanted to see Denver matched up against Boston in the finals. but Yokic and Murray got no help. They scored 90 as a team. Yokic and Murray had 69 of the 90.

Murray had 35. Yokic had 34. They combined for 69 points, 22 rebounds, and 10 assists. There wasn't one other double-digit score, and the closest was Michael Porter Jr. with seven. He was just off and it killed them. Aaron Gordon didn't have the kind of game that he's had in this series, and Minnesota deserved it, totally deserved it.

Mike Malone, the Denver coach after the game, was asked a question by a reporter, and I'll let you hear the exchange because I wanted to comment on it, and then we'll get to the next game. How hard is it just to absorb a loss like this after going ahead by 20? Next question, man. The season's over. That's what's hard.

Fing being up 20. The season's over. You don't understand that. The season's over. It's hard. Stupid-ass questions. So I played this because I wanted to give you my reaction to it, which was initially, oh my God, Mike Malone, what are you doing?

And I'm a Mike Malone fan. I think he's a good coach. He's a championship coach. I've heard that he is well-liked by media members, by other coaches, his players, et cetera. But I play this because I thought after my initial reaction, I'm like, you know what, though? There are people out there that totally agree with Mike Malone that that was a stupid-ass question. You don't ask a coach or a player moments after the devastating defeat that last night was, you know, what happened? You know, how do you feel after, you know, blowing a 20-point lead and losing game seven?

And so here's one of these unique situations where the question was totally appropriate. Like, that's not even debatable. It is one of the top two or three questions that have to be asked by a professional reporter after a game like that. You can't, you know, wait a couple of hours or a couple of days because the availability may not be. and it's the number one, you know, it's one of the top two or three questions that people want to know. I mean, you guys blew a 20-point lead, so tell us how it happened or tell us, you know, what you're feeling. It's not, trust me, you know, anybody that's ever been in this business, and there are many times where you end up getting a really thoughtful response,

and it doesn't even occur to you that that was a bad question. It's the right question to ask. It's totally appropriate to ask. It has to be asked. But then I thought about it from Mike Malone's perspective. You know, he's being Mike Malone in that moment. It's emotional. He's pissed.

He's devastated. The answer's a super honest one. It's not a stupid-ass question, but it's his emotions bleeding out in that moment. And the truth of it is is that the reporter asked the right question. and the answer that Mike Malone gave was an honest answer, and it worked for everybody. I don't think the reporter was hoping to get that kind of an answer where, you know, Mike Malone is, you know, chastising the reporter. The reporter, I hope, knows and is confident enough in his ability to know that he asked a totally appropriate question,

a question that's got to be asked. But he ended up getting an answer that was truly all Mike Malone. in the moment. And it worked out. Like it was, you know, it was a very interesting answer. I'm sure Mike Malone, a couple of hours or a couple of days after the fact will, you know, perhaps give you more on what happened being up by 20 because, you know, there was a lot that happened up 20 that you'd love to hear from the head coach on. He just wasn't in the mood. But it was one of those interesting situations where I know that fans and people that aren't, you know, media people think, oh my God, come on, man. Don't ask that question of the coach in that spot. I mean, not all of you

would say that. But it is a question that needs to be asked. And then the answer, like my immediate reaction was, oh, God, you're going to regret this, Mike Malone. But then it's like, no, that's who he is. It's an honest answer. And it ended up working out beautifully for the reporter. The question was asked, and he got an answer that ended up being replayed many, many times today all across the country. What a tough loss, though, for Denver. And what an impressive win for Minnesota. Really, really impressed with the Timberwolves. I like them to beat Dallas.

I think it's going to be a long series. But I think Luca's not 100%. They are a team that is so ISO. you know, and two-man dominant. I think they'll be easier to guard than Denver was for Minnesota. We'll see. The first game yesterday, the Knicks Pacers game, first of all, how impressed do you have to be with Indiana going into that environment?

That place was unbelievable. And, yeah, New York's missing all of these players. They're banged up coming into the game. Ananoby tries to play. I thought that was ridiculous. He could barely walk. And Indiana, completely fearless, shoots 76% in the first half, over 67% for the game, and they wipe out New York. I mean, blow the doors off the Knicks. The Knicks cut it to six, I think, in the third quarter. But if you were watching that game, there was never a moment in which you thought the Knicks had a chance. Indiana was the healthier team, obviously, and just flat. out the better team. They could have easily won in New York in games one and two. But here's the other thing about this game.

Impressed by Indiana, love the way everybody touches the ball offensively, the way that ball moves. I think Rick Carlisle's done a phenomenal job. Rick Brunson, his father. Jalen Brunson broke his hand, fractured his hand in the third quarter, but that was not, you know, why they lost the game. They were down by a bunch. They weren't going to win that game with him healthy or not. I'll tell you what, I like Jalen Brunson. He's an incredible scorer. He just dribbles way too much. He is too ball dominant, and the ball doesn't move for the

Knicks. It's all about his creation and everything that comes off of it. But when you're getting doubled as much as he's gotten doubled in this series, you can't dribble through double teams. you've got to have somebody, the guy who is going to double team, okay, Jalen Brunson, he's got to step to an open spot of the floor and the ball's got to go to him on a pass so you can play four on three towards the basket. And that's not the way Brunson handles it. It's not the way Tibbs handles it. Look, the Knicks, you know, they were the two-see. They had a great regular season. and they just were unhealthy for these playoffs. But I actually give Indiana a fighting chance to win two games in the series against Boston.

Who knows, maybe three, probably two. But man, they can score. Halliburton was great finally. T.J. McConnell, so impressive off the bench. Siakum was great. I'll tell you the other thing real quickly from this game, and it has nothing to do with the game. The result was somewhat satisfying, especially if you watched the pregame show on ABC.

It was an embarrassment. I rarely watch that show. It's just not good. It's never been good. It's not just because it's not inside the NBA, the gold standard of pregame and postgame shows, along with college game day. It just isn't very good. It's not very entertaining. It's not very basketball insightful.

I mean, it's been rough. for ESPN, ABC to find the right mix of people to make that show with their product, the NBA, you know, more watchable because people do like the Inside the NBA show. Many people like that show more than the games themselves. But yesterday, oh my God, I never watch it anymore. I don't tune in, but I tuned in yesterday because I wanted to see how amped up the crowd was. and Square Garden because people were talking about it. It was all over Twitter about how lit that building was like an hour before tip off.

And I wanted to see what it was like. And all I got was essentially a pregame show that was a celebration of the Knicks and Stephen A. Smith, who you would have thought was playing in the game with how much he was featured as a Knicks fan in his fandom of the Knicks. Here's some of the things that were tweeted out or written. about this, you know, just abomination of a pregame show from some, you know, big-time media people. Let me just read it because if you miss this, these people sum it up much better than I. Richard Deich, longtime media writer.

I love NYC. I live there many years. It will always be my home even though I now live in Toronto. But I can be real here. Game 7 was a ridiculous Knicks-centric production. and if you are a Pacers fan who's like, are you kidding me with this? I get it. Andrew Marshan, long-time media guy, does the podcast with our good friend John Oran. If ESPN is concerned about an East Coast bias, having nearly the entire pregame centering around the Knicks doesn't help.

Up next, Stephen A's Knicks pep talk. From Sports Media Watch, does a neutral fan go into this game with any idea of what is it? at stake for Indiana today? Honestly, I'm not sure they go into this game with any idea of what's at stake for New York either, as ESPN only discusses the Knicks in the context of Stephen A's fandom. Longtime hoops guy Dick Weiss. ESPN catching some deserved heat for turning pregame prior to game seven between New York and Indiana into a love fest for the Knicks.

Stephen A needs to tone it down. We know he has a soft spot for the Knicks, and that's fine. But this was way over the top. And it just kept coming. I don't know what they'll do, man, because they're going to be a big NBA partner for years and years to come. They cannot get it right on that pregame show. You know who's on that now with my friend, Mike Wilbon, I love Mike to death. I love him to death.

It's not a good show. Bob Myers is on that show with Wilbon and Stephen A. Bob Myers, who was on the search committee for the head coach and the general manager with Josh Harris. To be honest with you, not impressed with him on that show. Now, this is his first TV. You know, it takes a while to become good at it. He's got some decent insight. But the problem with that show more than anything else, it'll never be as entertaining as inside the NBA

because nobody's Barkley and Shaq. and nobody's Ernie either, or Kenny, for that matter, but the Barclay entertainment factor, but then the chemistry he has with Kenny and Shaq and Ernie, you're just never going to match that. So you really should be thinking about going with a hard X's and O's show, but they don't have the right people to do that. These guys are not basketball people.

They can tell the stories and they know the people, but they don't know basketball. So you're not getting X's and O's from anybody, on this set to give you insight into the game itself. So that's unfortunately the problem. I would go with Legler. I would go with Tim Legler. Actually, I have Legler doing the games because the broadcast, other than Mike Breen, isn't great.

I don't think JJ Reddix as good as I thought he would be. And I've always been a fan of Doris Burke from afar. She's just not a number one team analyst. sorry, she's not. Anyway, you get them for the Eastern Conference finals and then the NBA finals. So there's that. All right, one other thing, two other things to get to, actually, before we get to Logan Paulson. So Jeremy Fowler, ESPN's Jeremy Fowler, somebody sent this to me over the weekend, and I'm forgetting who it was.

I had it in front of me on the radio show this morning. have it up in front of me right now, so I apologize. But anyway, Jeremy Fowler was on SportsCenter Saturday morning and talked about Jaden Daniels and what he's hearing out of Ashburn, out of, you know, rookie mini-camp and OTA days. Quote, they're saying all the right things publicly about how he studies, works hard, all of those things. But when you talk to people in Washington privately, they say, we got ourselves.

a dude. I don't want to be hearing all this. I want them to downplay it. Now, he said they've been saying that privately. The public stuff has been not over the top, not like, you know, we've heard in previous years. Fowler also said, quote, finally after the carousel spinning at this position for so many years, but there's talk about, hey, rookie minicamp, the ball barely touched the ground, if at all, because of all the completions, rookie minicamp. The quick arm release has really stood out. Compact thrower, we've talked about that. There's a good feeling right now. They got to play the games, of course, but high praise so far for Jaden Daniels. He also said that the number two overall pick appears to be on track to win the starting quarterback job. Yes, I think he will be the

starting quarterback, too, on opening day. I'd be surprised if he isn't. I know we've talked about that before. All right. One last thing before we get to Logan Paulson, and I have a couple of other things that I'm not going to get to here on the show today that I'll save and get to with Tommy tomorrow. But Washington's been busy reshaping the front office out in Ashburn. You know, most teams that have a new regime, a new general manager, like Washington does this offseason, A lot of the change to that side of the operation, the Adam Peter's side of the operation, doesn't happen until after the draft. There are several reasons for it.

One big reason is they don't want somebody leaving and essentially taking knowledge of the draft board to another place. So a lot of those changes happen after the draft, and they've been busy out there. There was a few Eric Stokes, Malcolm Blackin, Chris Polion Ben reported today. Ben's been really all over this. He's had a lot of breaking news as it relates to the comings and goings. But the big news today was that the team hired former Detroit Lions executive Brandon Sossna as their new senior VP of football operations. And they're also expected to name former Ravens Director of College scouting David Blackburn as their director of player personnel. You may have that information as final by the time you listen to this podcast.

As of now, it's just been reported by Ben, by John, by Nikki, by everybody that they're expected to name David Blackburn as their director of player personnel. But Sassna is a big time higher. at least according to the people that really understand who this young person is. He's 31 years old. He's been in Detroit the last two years as the senior director of football administration, obviously working with Lance Newmark in Detroit. And he's going to take on a significant role in the organization here in Washington. He will report to Peters.

He will serve as the team's lead contract negotiator. He'll oversee multiple departments in football office. including analytics, health and performance, and football administration, and he will serve as a liaison to the team's business operations. Now, Rob Rogers has had contract negotiation responsibilities. There's no word on whether or not Rob Rogers will stay in the organization. He was brought in by Ron Rivera from Carolina back in 2020. So I have just one takeaway from all of these hires, and it's not going to be the takeaway that maybe you're reading on social media from people who are describing what Washington is in the midst of doing as being, you know, Baltimore-esque or Philadelphia-esque or San Francisco-esque in terms of the team of front office executives that they're putting together.

We don't know if that's true or not. we don't know if Adam Peters is the right hire at this point. They have yet to play a game. We have yet to see Adam Peters's free agent acquisitions, draft choices on the field playing an actual game. He's never been a general manager before. I understand he was a top tier candidate, but just like coaches and players who are drafted, a lot of those top tier candidates don't work out. We don't know yet. I'm not going to pretend to know whether or not. I'm not going to pretend to know whether or not, not they're putting together the next great front office in the National Football League. The takeaway for me is simply put, they're putting together a group of people that in the past

probably wouldn't have been interested in a job here. Adam Peters was with San Francisco. He had choices. He wouldn't be here if Dan Snyder were still here, if it was the old organization. Lance Newmark wouldn't be here if Adam Peters wasn't here. You know, a lot of these guys are coming from Adam Peters, coming to work for Adam Peters because they respect Adam Peters, but because also they don't fear working for this organization anymore. This place used to be a toxic no-no. Sorry, but if you have choices, go elsewhere. Don't go to Washington. And I think attracting, you know, front office people, executives from, you know, solid organizations like San Francisco.

in Baltimore potentially, those are good signs that the organization has normalized. It's a normal organization right now, able to hire perceived high-quality people. That's my one takeaway. And that's a good thing. That's a positive development. I think we expected that development once the team had been sold. But we weren't sure because we didn't know how Josh Harris and the ownership group would be, perceived. We didn't know if they'd be good at pitching themselves and pitching the opportunity

to people like Adam Peters. And then after that, Dan Quinn and then, you know, players and now front office executives. So that's encouraging. But a bit too early to give this front office a grade yet in terms of the job they're doing. Logan Paulson next after these words from a few of our sponsors. Down to the final four in the NBA playoffs, guys. It's Minnesota and Dallas out west, Indiana, and Boston in the east. I've got a way that will make watching these games more exciting. Download the prize picks app today.

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So I played the sound of you with Santana and Smoot on that first day of rookie minicamp a week and a half ago. When you were, because I actually reached out to you, you know, to say, I wanted to make sure I knew where you were the last time you were on the show. But you were legit, excited, impressed with Daniels seeing him up close and personal for the first time. So tell everybody why and how you felt in that moment seeing him for the first time. You know, I was really fortunate throughout the process. I got to see almost every quarterback throw in person. Obviously, I missed Drake May and Caleb, but

all the other ones in Jayden, but like all the other guys down the line, I got to see, you know, whether it was a senior boy at the combine. And so, like, there's something, when you're watching guys on film all the time, you're like, I think this is what it looks like, I think this is what it feels like. But to me, and, you know, other evaluators

feel differently, but there's nothing that really replaces what it looks like in person. And so when you get out there, you kind of seen on film, his footworks really excellent, his release is excellent. But to see it in person, and his ability to get into his drop so quickly, the dexterity of his speed, the on-rhythm nature of his throwing mechanic, the ability, the lightning quick release, like, again, they were doing this drill on that first day of rookie minicamp where we're kind of working RPO

reads and it just get the ball out as quick as you can. And maybe next to Jimmy Garapolo was the fastest release that I ever played with in my career. His is like right in that same ballpark. And so it just kind of shows you that, like, some of the issues that showed up in the evaluation process, kind of the simplicity of the LSU offense, it makes you worried. But like, when you see that level of footwork, it makes me really confident that he can get to other stuff really quickly. You know, he can kind of work his drops. And so, like, in the seven-on-seven period in that same practice and in the following OTA practice

the next week, you just see a guy who's, because his feet are so quick, because his footwork is so natural and it's so well-coached, he's able to get to different throws that you didn't see in college. And I think that was a big kind of load off my mind, seeing that ability again to kind of accelerate my feet, decelerate my feet, pivot to stuff, get to the checkdown, all in a very efficient rhythm and timing. There's no padding the football. There's no chopping of the feet. There's a confidence and a dexterity to it that just gets you really confident. And I'm not saying he's going to be the greatest quarterback of all time, but I had some issues, you know, with his play style, that seeing him in person, seeing those two practices, I kind of said, okay, I feel much better about those issues.

Jimmy Garapolo had the quickest release of any quarterback you played with. It was insane, Kevin. I mean, it was like one of those things where you'd be playing catch with them, and you know, you didn't have your gloves on or whatever, and the ball would just kind of jump on you, and you're like, he's not throwing it that hard. I remember having a conversation with Kyle, and Kyle's like, it's because the release is so quick.

And so once Kyle says that, you kind of go pay attention, you're like, oh, yeah, and then you watch film of them, and you can see defensive personnel. I remember we were playing the Jacksonville Jaguars. I know we're digressing a little bit, but he had to throw a slant, and the linebacker made a great read on the slant, but couldn't break the ball up because the ball was there before he got there. And it just gave him this tremendous advantage, like,

the snap of the ball out of his hand. It wasn't an overpowering ball that was just so quick to get to the receiver, and a lot of it was because of the release. And I see a lot of that same crossover with Jane Daniels. I mean, I think it's funny because when you mentioned Garoppel, I'm thinking to myself, I don't, I didn't think, of Garoppolo as having a quick release. I didn't think of him as having a slow release, but there are certain quarterbacks I always think of. And one of the things I kept saying

about Chaden Daniels during the season, I'm like, he's got a really quick release. Marino's the fastest release, quickest release of any quarterback, I think, for me and my lifetime of watching quarterbacks. But tell everybody why it's so important. I mean, it's somewhat intuitive, but Yeah, no, I think it is somewhat intuitive, but I do think like there's something to, like there's a defensive expectation, right? Like their most quarterbacks, you know, Matt Ryan, Jake Cutler, Kirk Cousins, the ball comes out in a very traditional way. They're all good players in their own, right? They all do different things well. But when you get that guy that has that quick release, it allows him to touch parts of the field while not adding a ton of ball velocity.

So still throwing an extremely catchable football while still being able to. kind of penetrate these first and second level throwing windows at the NFL level. So I think that's where the main advantage comes. And again, he doesn't have this overpowering arm, but he does make up for it because he's excellent with his feet and his release is so, so quick. So I think it's going to be one of those things that kind of covers up a lot of issues with him because it just allows you to manipulate that first level of the defense at such a high level.

Do you think his success throwing the deep ball, and I thought he was as good a deep ball throwers there was in the draft. Is that timing? Is that release? You still have to have the arm strength, but what makes him a good deep ball thrower? Yeah, to me, it's the touch, I think. Like, you know, for example,

like I was really high on Jay-J McCarthy, and I was really impressed with JJ's arm strength, his ability to kind of touch all levels of the field, and that came out of watching him in person. But one of the things about him is you didn't have great touch on the football, meaning like, you know, when it's kind of, they all look the same. It's coming out with the same kind of,

angle, same kind of ball velocity, and that can make it really, really challenging for receivers, especially on that, you know, deeper third part of the field to kind of adjust to the football. Everyone says, oh, he's a great deep ball thrower, which is true, but you're also playing to the receiver's strength. Like you're giving the receiver an opportunity to adjust to the football, right? So, like, if I put that ball too flat, for example, I don't care how good the receivers, he's never going to be able to accelerate and adjust to that ball. Now, if I'm Jayden Daniels and you watch him throw, I think in the OTAs,

practice last week. He was able to throw, you know, a fade to Bryson's remain. Bryson's able to back shoulder adjust. The next one, the Dax Mills is able to run under it. Very different stylistic throws. But the important element is there. He's putting enough touch on the ball that the receiver can adjust. Now, he's also got to be very accurate. He's also got to put the ball in the right position. But I think the fact that it's not on a line. It's got a little bit of air that lets the receiver work for the throw makes them much more efficient at throwing that deep ball, much like you see with Joe Burrow and Jemar Chase, right?

Joe understands that I got to put a little bit of air on this ball and let Jemar Chase be Jemar Chase. I think that's what you're seeing with Jane Daniels also. I just found something, by the way, I was looking for something more recent, but in 2022, you know who had the fastest release of any quarterback in the NFL? Because I guess he was playing a bunch that year,

probably because of injuries. You're never going to guess it. I have no idea. PJ Walker. Really? Yeah. Oh, PJ. Followed by Aaron Rogers,

followed by Brady, Cooper Rush, and then Garapolo. Interesting. And then Garoppolo. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

He's in there. Burrow and Tua there are in there, too. That's interesting. I mean, it all kind of makes sense, but it's really funny that, like, Cooper Rush is, Cooper Rush and PJ Walker made the list. All right. What about his frame?

What did he look like physically up close to you? Yeah, you know, he's not, I've got to meet him. You know, we did a couple interviews with him right after he was drafted. You know, I think there's this conception, or pre-preception, excuse me, that he's this really kind of frail guy. He's not the biggest guy in the world, but he's definitely not a frail build. He's kind of long and wiry, but there's a sturdiness and a robustness to him in his frame. Again, he's not a huge person, but you know, you don't come out of the conversation to be like, man, this guy's incredibly thin or this guy's incredibly frail looking.

It's like he's got a slighter frame, but it's not like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be a problem. Like, this is an example, like a point of comparison. Like, when you see Emmanuel Forbes, it jumps out to you immediately. Like, oh, this guy's very skinny by NFL standard. I don't get that same vibe when I see Jayden in person, especially with the pads on. It feels like he's not the biggest guy in the world, but it doesn't feel like he's smaller, or detrimentally small, if that makes sense.

There was this picture or video circulating from over the weekend at the rookie premiere, whatever that actually is, but each team sends two rookies. And he's standing side by side with Caleb Williams, and he really does tower over Caleb Williams. Now, Caleb Williams is 6-1, and Jaden's closer to 6'4. But I think for people who didn't realize, he stands tall in the pocket and looks, I thought, thought he always looked tall in the pocket at LSU. Does he look tall to you? I think that's the thing that comes across is like, you know, he's six four.

He's all of six four. Like when I'm talking to him, I measured a six-four at the combine. I'm at eye with him. You know, he's a tall guy. He's a long-limbed. So, again, like, I think probably the height is another thing that makes you think, oh, he's not maybe as small as people think. But, yeah, I think it's, you know, everyone talks about Drake Bay being six-four,

or like, Jayden's the same height. Obviously, their body types are a little bit different. You know, Drake made's a little bit like larger bone, a little bit more robust. But, you know, Jayden's a big guy. And I think it's just about, I think you could stand to probably put on 10 pounds. But I think if you were to meet him in person, you wouldn't be like, oh, my gosh, this guy's so skinny. You'd be like, this is a normal size NFL quarterback that's going to physically mature over the next couple years.

Last one on Daniels, for now anyway, Logan. Do you see offensive limitations with respect to systems that he would fit in to? I mean, do you see a guy that has to have a dual threat element for him to be successful offensively? Or do you think that there are lots of different offenses that he could be successful in? Well, you know, obviously only watching two practices, it's hard to make kind of like a sweeping conclusion. But I do think after watching his, again, his. footwork was just so impressive, his release so impressive. I do think he could play in different

offensive systems. I really do. I don't think it needs to be kind of this, you know, you know, Jalen Hertz's version of Philadelphia that was what was that 2002, right, where they're running all this kind of triple option, RPO, you know, kind of hybrid quarterback run system where it's quick passes, your quick game and your run game are kind of mixed together. I don't think it needs to be that. Do I think that could help him? Sure, they did a lot of that at LSU, but after watching him, I just think he's a much, much better passer than I think people want to give him credit for. And you see some of the ability to throw the football at a high level when you watch LSU stuff. But I think in some ways, the film there did him a disservice because the offense was so limiting.

And seeing him throw some different concepts, some different route combinations, against some different coverages in the NFL, you know, over these two practices, you're kind of saying, man, like, that's pretty sharp. And I think the other thing that needs to be kind of addressed is just how, on it he seems to be. You know, he's like they're doing hand signals. He seems to know all the hand signals. He's getting guys lined up.

He knows where the checkdown is. He knows how the concept should be thrown versus different coverages. And, again, he's getting to the checkdowns on rhythm. He's getting to the second read on rhythm. And that's some, like, really encouraging stuff. You know, one of the things about Sam Howell, this is a point of comparison from last year, is there were times where you could tell Sam was still kind of feeling out NFL defenses.

and there was like this kind of pat, pat, hitch hitch, ball out for some of the stuff when the defense didn't present the right thing to him or the thing he was expecting. And with Jay, and again, it's only been two practices. These are truncated defenses. I know there's a lot of growth that still needs to happen, but you don't see any of that. And I think that is something that, again, makes me very encouraged that he could play in a variety of offensive systems. So let's talk about the offensive system he's going to play in as a rookie in 2024.

What's it going to look like? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you've got to kind of look back at Cliff history and like kind of, everyone kind of points that air raid. And I'm doing like a little bit of an air raid project, which we're going to put up on take command here in the next couple weeks. But what I've found in doing my research on the air raid is that that system is now kind of infected or it's become part of the NFL like zeitgeist. You know, it's a cultural past game influence on every team in the NFL. So you're going to see some elements of the air raid, but I also think you're going to see some of what Cliff did so well in 2022. We're going to get into different personnel groupings.

We're going to use some of these kind of flexible pieces. You know, maybe Ben Sinatra if he develops. Maybe Chris Rodriguez, is he a fullback, is he a tailback? You know, Luke McCaffrey, can he be that big slot guy that, you know, makes defenses match a nickel, but you can still run the football. I think when you talk to Cliff and when you watch some of the stuff he did in 2022, too, you saw something and influences of other offenses around the NFL. Like, you know, obviously I'm very familiar with Kyle Shanahan.

You see some of the play action stuff look very similar to what Kyle Shanahan does. You see that heavy RPO influence that he had when he was coaching at Texas Tech. And you see that now kind of Philly stealing that. So I think you're going to see a heavy RPO base, a guy, a coordinator who understands that a fine shot for the quarterback, in conjunction with kind of your spread him out, past game stuff that every NFL team is going to now. So it's going to be Cliff's own thing, but I think you're going to see influences from his career

and from his understanding of the NFL game, and you're going to see a pretty exciting offense, I would think. What percentage of the snaps, given that, would he even need to be under center? You know, what's funny is, I don't think hardly any. I think when you look around the league right now, look around college, they're able to do so much cool stuff from the gun in terms of, you know, kind of like, you know, you look at like,

this is getting really nerdy now, but, you know, with that time for that, I guess. Like, you talk about, like, high school offenses, like single wing, like the triple option, the veer, and you see all these teams, like Miami, Green Bay, for example, doing so much of that action, Kansas City, so much of that action from the backfield. So it's not the same, like, downhill action that you get from, like, a Kyle Shanahan, we're under center, we're running outside zone,

or whatever we're doing, but they get all this misdirection in the backfield, and it holds the linebackers in the same way that you get from a traditional play action path. They're just getting to it in different ways, and they're doing it from the gun. So I think, again, when you watch 2021, Arizona film, you see a lot of that influence, and I think Cliff's smart enough to look around the landscape and say, how do I best maximize our gun stuff for Jaden? Because our gun runs will be great because he can run the football, we can run counter,

but how do I ensure that the play action is effective? And I think you're going to see a lot of this motion personnel kind of mining to kind of find good matchups and find the right opportunities for the quarterback. In your experience so far, you know, either watching or, you know, even talking ball with Cliff Kingsbury, you know, this is still a mystery for a lot of the fans. Like what kind of, how good will he be as an offensive coordinator? They weren't super successful in Arizona, but they weren't unsuccessful. I think some of what happened in Arizona has been exaggerated from a negative standpoint.

They had a good season in 2021. But what's your confidence level in him being a coordinator only at the NFL level? Yeah, I mean, I think that's going to be helpful for him. I think, you know, one of the things that I've heard from people who were with him in Arizona is that, like, it's hard. It's hard being a head coach and hard being. in a play caller. And I think now that he can focus on, you know, kind of being that offensive coordinator, being that offensive mind, like when you watch him at practice, and again, I haven't talked to him about it, it's just an observation, I see a guy who's invigorated by coaching.

You know, he's invigorated by the puzzle that each defense presents. And I see the activity, his engagement with the players, and I'm like, this is where this guy wants to be. And I think, you know, in my limited, my very brief interactions with him, I've just been really impressed with how he thinks about the game. You know, he's talking about matchups. He's talking about dictating. He's talking about all the things that you hear Kyle and Sean talking about, but he gets to it in a different way. So personally, I'm really excited to see what he brings.

And again, like, you know, how he's grown. I think one of the things when you watch his time in Arizona, like that offense evolved every single year. And it became more and more NFL-centric every single year. And, you know, I always judge a coordinator. on how they're able to find matchups, and when I find explosive plays, excuse me. And when I'd watch the two San Francisco games from 2021,

I was like, man, he has found five to seven opportunities that are easy for the quarterback that are explosive opportunities. And that's enough to win these football games against a very, very good defense. So I'm encouraged, again, like he's got, like you talk to people who know him, he's got issues that he has to work out, but I'm very confident that his time at USC and his time away have kind of let him reflect and refocus. I think you're going to get a really exciting product offensively.

I think one of the things that's interesting right now is we don't know, when I say we, fans and a lot of people even in media, don't know who they really like and who they don't, of the players that were here. Obviously, I would guess they really like Terry McLaren. They probably really like Brian Robinson Jr., and Duran Payne and John Allen. but after that there's some mystery. So let's start offensively.

Who do you think that of the players that were here last year are going to be a big part of the offensive plan? Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of a million-dollar question. But if I had to put money on it, obviously you got Terry and I think Jehan. And then I think a guy that maybe people are sleeping on because the off-neckler signing is Brian Robinson. I think when you look at James Connor in Arizona, this big bruising back that can kind of make that first one miss, you know, whether he's running the guy over or using his feet.

I think Brian Robinson fits that mold pretty acutely, you know, and I'm excited to see him kind of run in this offense. It's going to have more space opportunities because of the spread-out nature. Like, I can't tell you how many runs I watched in Cliff Kingsbury's offense in 2021 were there, you know, in three-by-one, they've got the three-receiver side really spread out. They take that weak-side hook player out into the alley. they run a tight zone, and then they block up the middle linebacker, and there's just this gaping hole because of the space they've been able to create. And Brian Robinson runs downhill in the tight zone game in a violent, physical way.

Inside zone opposite the three receivers? To the same side. Same side. The backslide up, black slide up to the same side. The quarterback stands it off. It kind of is like this pseudo-RPO. It's right downhill, and it's explosive play after explosive play. And so I think that kind of stuff will, we'll shoot.

Brian Robinson really, really well. And, you know, and Chris Rodriguez, I think, to a certain extent as well, these kind of bigger body downhill guys are going to do well with that because you've got to run through arm tackles. You've got to kind of run through some messy looks. And both those guys, even Austin Eckler, have shown the ability to do that. So I'm really excited for all three of those guys, really. Offensive line, do you think they're confident in what they have?

You know, it's interesting. Like, there is, you know, I was in this camp, too, but then I went back and I watched a lot of, Cornelius Lucas's past match from last year. And I think when you're looking at a guy from a past protection standpoint, Cornelius Lucas does a pretty good job. And I'm not saying he's going to be the answer for all 18 games. But, you know, like when they played,

the Washington commanders played the San Francisco 49ers last year, he's going one-on-one with Joe Boza or Nick Bosa and holding his own. I think he had an 85% pass-block win rate that game. Obviously, there's something to be desired as a run blocker, but I think he's pretty efficient in that regard. I think you look at Nick Allegredi and what he brings the Otis at Center. And the thing that I keep coming back to was last year, I thought the group played okay.

And I know people are going to jump down my throat for saying that, but I think when you look at the difficulty level that they were dealing with on a down-to-down basis, there was no other team in the NFL from a past protection standpoint that had to deal with as much five-man pro and just being totally leveraged the way they were. So look at the offensive line this year, and I'm assuming that Cliff is going to keep that in consideration. We're going to try and de-leverage our young quarterback.

We're going to run the football a little bit more. We're not going to have them throw the ball more than 30 times a game. We're going to rely on our defense to keep us in games. And I think that formula not only de-leverages the quarterback, but it also de-leverages the offensive line. So that group, which I think is being much maligned right now, I think of, you know, the year after Mike McDaniel got to Miami, for example. That old line in Miami was considered by far the worst in the NFL. After a new play caller got there, no one even talked about them. It wasn't even an issue because you understood how to de-leverage them.

And I'm hoping that Cliff brings some of that insight to this group. And then we're not even talking about this group that right now people can't seem to get past. Yeah. You know, I think that happens a lot. I think sometimes, I think offensive line play for most of us is the hardest to really, understand. And most of the time, it's because we don't really understand what the responsibilities are of a player on a given play, but that a lot of times scheme and better quarterback play make everybody look a lot better up front. By the way, you mentioned James Connor, and it's a really good

comp for Brian Robinson, Jr. They're basically the same size. James Connor has had some very good seasons. By the way, including this past season, he has, actually had a decent game against Washington. The game that I think he played really well against, the team he played really well against, I think was Dallas when they beat Dallas early in the year. But under Kingsbury, he had a Pro Bowl season at running back. And he was, that's the thing. I mean, Air raid typically deemphasizes, you know, the tight end. And there's, not that they don't run the football, but you're not typically going to have a Pro Bowl. season out of a running back. But I think the true hell mummy Mike Leach air raid really is different

in the NFL anyway just because of the hashes in some cases, right? No, I think that's 100% right. And again, like you see, like when I say the air raids alive and well in the NFL, the concepts are alive and well and the principles are alive and well. You know, when they're talking about mesh, everybody runs mesh. That's like a traditional air raid play, right? Or drive. Everybody in the NFL runs drive, but, unlike the air raid where they ran it one way, now teams run it both ways because offenses are more complicated, right?

You have more good skilled position players. You can take advantage in those matchups. And the other element of the air raid that I think is so important is the tempo. And every team has an element of tempo, whether it's two minutes, like, you know, when Kyle and when I was with Kyle or when I was in Chicago, we had like an Apache package where we'd hurry up. It was kind of a muddle huddle, but the tempo was up

and we could execute really quick. We had a smaller package. That's essentially air raid. that entire principle is air raid. But we don't do tempo all the time. And I think because of the complexity and the nuance of NFL defenses, you need more answers offensively. And I think that's why you see kind of this broader diversification

of what would be traditionally classified as air raid. It's just the principles are there. It's just how often are they applied and when's the best time to use them to maximize the impact of those offensive principles. specific to Jahan Dotson, do you think they see in him what we saw in him when he was healthy, his rookie season? Like, is he going to have a big role in Kingsbury's offense? I think so. I mean, it's still so early and it's hard to know exactly how they see him.

But I do think he's a good football player. And I think when you look at the things that, like, when you, like that is evaluation coming out, those qualities, the ability to run nuanced rounds, to get in and out of cuts. to make the tough contested catches, those are transferable skill sets. And I think you saw that his rookie season, obviously he was hurt, and then had a tough year last year. I think there is an opportunity for him to be revitalized and rejuvenated in this new system. And I think that's the goal of a good coordinator also. We talk about managing the quarterback advantage in the offensive line. You also have to manage your skill position players and find out what they do well and how you maximize them.

And I think, you know, I can't wait to see what Cliff does with this group and Johan specifically. Defensively, players that I have no idea what they think of him. John Kime actually, you know, made the statement, I think, either written or on his podcast, that he doesn't think Emmanuel Forbes will be a starter in 2024. That's one of the guys I was curious as to whether or not they see in him what the last regime did. you know, I'm also curious about what they think about Jamin Davis and guys like that. They're going to love Duran and John, I would assume. Do you have a hunch on how they see guys like Jamin Davis in the role for him?

Emmanuel Forbes, Kwan Martin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think when you look at, let's just take Jamie Davis and start, I think when you look at some of the off-season moves they've made and the people that they've brought in, and how they've utilized them in the first OTA practice. And again, that's not Bible, but I think it does show kind of a general thought process. You see, you know, Bobby Wagner, you see Frankie Lubu, you see Jordan McGee kind of out with that first group.

And obviously, we're not going to carry. The team's not going to carry a lot of linebackers. So I think that kind of leaves Jamin in the lurch a little bit in terms of what his role going to be. I've heard people, you know, banter about the idea that he's going to be maybe some type of situational pass rush using that length and athleticism. But I think he's going to have to kind of find a niche because when you look at Lou Vu, what he does well, he's a great pass rusher and he's very physical.

I think Jamie is a version of that, but I think right now Louvoo does that better. And so I think he's going to have to kind of work to kind of figure out, and they're going to have to work to figure out how best to maximize him and get him on the field because he is a good athlete. It's just they've made a pretty significant investment at that linebacker position. And I think those other guys are pretty gosh-strong good football players. So I think that'll be really interesting to see.

I think the, gosh, the corner, gosh. Emmanuel Forbes. Emmanuel Forbes, thank you. Emmanuel Forbes, obviously, is a guy that I'm really curious to see because he's kind of the perfect mixture of what they love about playing corner and also what they dislike about playing corner. Like you get a guy with tremendous feel and ball production and natural coverage instincts and a guy that, again, like I said, can turn the football over.

But at the same time, he's not the most physical. physical football player all the all time. And last year there was a couple of games where you saw that kind of rear its ugly head. And they've been very clear. Joe Witt has been very clear. Like, we need guys that are going to tackle and be physical and cover ground. And again, can he do that? That is my question.

You know, he's a little undersized for the position. And they've brought in these guys that kind of have these archetypical or prototypical bodies. You know, a news from Colorado State is the corner they brought in, and the UDFA, he's huge. Kevin, I mean, he's like six, one and a half. He's 2.10. He's got long arms. He looks like a linebacker almost.

And so the guy they brought in from the Chargers, he's also very tall. Davis. But the other guy's the guy from Dallas, right? Yes, yes. They're all these kind of, again, these longer. Bigger guys that are long-armed and physical tacklers. Like when you watch them play, they're physical downhill players. And is manual that?

I have no idea, but I do think he's instinctive. He can get ball production, and if you can get him going in the right direction, he can be pretty devastating for this defense. It's just about can he figure out that other stuff, and I think you also mention Kwan as a guy, and Kwan is a guy that I am very confident that they love. I think when you just look at what he did last year, especially in the second half of the season,

he's a football player's football player. And what I mean by that is he does the things that aren't always required, and he does them at a high level. He takes on blocks. He's physical. he tackles, he's aggressive to the football, he wants to make the tackle. He's got great ball production. He's got great coverage instincts. And I think they're going to find, they're just going to fall in love with that type of player.

And that's who they want as a part of this defense. And so to me, in terms of guys that are going to be very productive from the last regime, I think Kwan is at the top of that list, in addition to, obviously, guys like Duran and John Allen. You mentioned Jordan McGee's name the fifth round pick out of Temple. I did not hear that coming out of OTAs. he was out there with the ones? Yeah, I mean, again, it's early on. Yeah, I know.

What exactly is, who is that exactly where? But he was out there with Bobby Wagner and Frankie Louvre. And so I'm not saying that that's the definitive answer, or maybe they're just trying to get some mentorship in and things can change. But I think when you see that guy walk off the bus and when you see him walk in the building, he's a guy that's got the right kind of physicality. He plays fast. He's got good coverage instincts.

And I think if you can get that cultivated and molding, it, he kind of fits the exact vision of what they want this defense to be. So again, I think there's still a lot of time and a lot of developmental process for him personally, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a, you know, a significant role in this defense when the season comes around. All right. I said I might come back to Jaden Daniels, and I am. So my question to you is the non-football stuff with him. You've had him on the show. You've seen him up close and personal. You've probably heard a lot of the same stuff that all of us have heard about his work ethic, about how prepared he is. Just tell me from your vantage point, whether it's based on things

you know and you've talked to people about or just your own observation. Just share with us sort of the intangible stuff, the non-football stuff. What's your gut at this point on him? Yeah, I mean, I think, again, I don't, I'm not going to say on what I'm, heard or what I've not heard, but just from based on my observation of practice. Like the first day of OTAs, like again, a first day of rookie minicamp is usually an absolute garbage fire, right? There's balls in the ground. People are on the same page. But Jaden, he seemed to know he understood the coverages, he understood the concepts, he understood the timing and rhythm in a way that I came out being very impressed.

You know, and I thought that just doesn't happen. No one's that football. No one's like a football a savant like that. He had to study, he had to prep, he had to get ready for that. And I think that those types of performances in practice show what he is and what he can be. And I think that's something that is, you know, is very, very encouraging to me. So, you know, I know I've heard Kimes say stuff, which I would agree with based on my observations. But when I watch practice, that's almost the number one thing that jumps out to me about him, is that he just, you know, obviously the footwork, the quick release, but he just seems to understand the offense at a level that is very, very impressive so far.

And again, it's still early, only a couple of practices. And, you know, the very surface level offensive stuff is in the playbook. But that's something I'm also very encouraged by with him. Does he start week one? You know, I don't know. If I was a betting man, I'd probably say yes, but crazier things have happened. Great job. Appreciate it, as always. Hope you're well.

Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate the opportunity, man. Logan Paulson, everybody. So insightful and always enjoyable, a pleasure to have a conversation with, give him a follow on Instagram at Logan underscore Paulson. 82. Logan does a lot of work for the Commander's YouTube channel with guys like Santana Moss and Fred Smoot. And he's got a podcast with Craig Hoffman called Take Command. Give us a follow on Apple and And Spotify, it's pretty easy to do. Just hit the follow button in the upper right-hand corner or the plus button on Apple and on Spotify. Subscribe to the podcast, and if you get a moment or two to rate us and review us on Apple in particular, that's always helpful.

Up next, is it possible that the city won't be able to afford a stadium for the commanders at the RFK site? Eric Flack from WUSA Channel 9 will explain next. Right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, most of us are interested in our mental and physical well-being to a certain degree. And with that in mind, I'd like to welcome and introduce a new sponsor to the podcast. The new sponsor is Unified Healing, Unified spelled Uni-F-Y-D Healing. It doesn't matter if you're a big-time, world-class athlete or just a somewhat athletic podcaster like me, we all understand the importance

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You have to use it exactly the way I've described it. Kevin, D.C. All right. Jumping on with me right now is Eric Flack from WUSA Channel 9. You can give them a follow on X on Twitter at Eric Flack TV. It's Eric with a C. Eric's been so involved in investigative reporting and reporting on all of the various things involving the football team, the basketball team and Leonis just so many stories over the last.

I mean, you know what? When you think about it, Eric, seriously, you're an investigative reporter, and you've spent a lot of time on sports-related investigative stories in this town over the last few years. Not all cities are the same. Yeah, which is awesome because I'm a huge sports fan born and raised here. I've such a personal interest in all of these teams that fact that I'm getting paid to do all these stories is just awesome.

Right, but most cities, you would be focused on, like, real things. Not that this isn't a real thing, but it wouldn't be sports-related, but with Dan Snyder and Ted Leonis and stadium talk and discussion, there's lots of activity for you. All right. I read your story over the weekend about D.C., you know, it's not just about, and this is something I've been emphasizing. It's not just about what the next step is, which is the RFK site bill getting through the Senate and the city owning the land or having the land with an amended and an extended lease and being able to negotiate with the city. Then comes the big part, which is the negotiation

to try to come up with a deal to lure Josh Harris and the team to DC. You wrote about this and said it's not like this easy thing because it's expensive. And, you know, Recent cities and teams have been involved in city and taxpayer-funded stadiums, you know, in Nashville, in Buffalo, et cetera. Before we get to that, which I found very interesting, and I want to go into it in depth, just update everybody where we are on the Senate situation. We heard from Steve Daines, the Republican from Wyoming last week. he's pretty passionate about the team and the Wetzel family getting together and figuring out something that makes sense to honor them and the logo that Walter Blackie Wetzel designed back in 1972. What's the next step? Is it a vote? Where are we on the Senate piece to this?

They have to, it's still in that committee, and it has to get voted out of that committee that oversees the park service. for it to get that full vote in the Senate. It overwhelmingly passed the House. Nobody expects it to have any problem passing a full vote in the Senate. But procedurally, if they can't get it out of committee, there can't be a vote. It's like Louise Lucas 2.0 with the arena stuff.

And so where it stands is the family saying, you know, we need to figure out a way to honor my grandfather before we're going to give the okay for this thing move forward. And, you know, I think we both have spoken with people with the team who said, you know, they can't get what they want, which is the logo to be brought back somehow. I mean, they can honor it in the stadium somewhere, but they're not, it can't be T-shirts. There can't be a retro throwback uniform, you know, with.

that old logo. The league is never going to go for that. So, you know, until Dane's advances this thing out of committee, we're kind of in a holding pattern, have until the end of summer, which is the end of session to get this deal passed through the full Senate. Or else, you've got to start all over again next year. So Clark is ticking. There's a little bit of time left to go, left to play with. We've got Memorial Day weekend here coming up. And then, you know, there's still weeks left in the session over the summer before they break. But it's really in Danes in that committee's hand right now. Is he really the equivalent to a Louise Lucas?

Can he kill this thing? I've been told different things. I've been told by the team no, but I'm not sure they understand. I've been told by his staff, yes. So, I mean, it kind of depends. But keep in mind, the. The NFL, we know and have reported and you know, has been actively lobbying Congress on both sides of the House going back to last year to get this hand back into the land back into the

hands of D.C. so it can at least be an option. And the NFL has a huge powerful lobby, huge powerful lobby there working in Washington. So, you know, he may think he has the power. to stop this, but he's going to have to be more powerful than the NFL, and I don't see that as happening. Well, there's a big difference, too, right? Louise Lucas thought she was representing the best interests of her constituents. He's representing the best interests of this family and the logo in which there is an out, which is the team and the Wetzels sit down.

They figure something out that makes everybody happy, and that, you know, by extension, makes him happy. And I've been told that the team has been working with that family long before this. Like, they didn't just learn about his family and his concerns through Senator Dane's. So, you know, I mean, it's not like this spurred any conversations. I was told by one person, these are two different things. We don't see them as connected. The Wetzel thing and the stadium land thing are two totally different issues.

And we are addressing them both individually in different ways. lanes, not as one big package deal. Yeah, except that Steve Daines doesn't think that. He thinks he can hold this thing up on his own. Now, you said something, and it's the second time that I have heard this, and I just want to dig a little bit deeper with you. You said the league is never going to go with that logo, even in an alternative uniform

situation or a throwback situation. Why not? I think because of it what they don't want, they don't want to take you know, on earth that all over again. They don't want to open that bag

and go back down the road with is it a racist symbol? Is it not a racist symbol? I mean, they're a league that stands for you know, you know, you know, you know, equality and multicultural and and and they're just not going to get in the business of of bringing back a debate

where one side says there's a racist overtone to something that represents the NFL. It's just, it's a non-starter for them because of the tone. Whether you believe it's racist or not is beside the point. The point is that Annabelle is image conscious, and they don't even want to go down that road. Yeah, I think what's interesting, and I think these two things kind of come together, and I'm not sure that it's fair that they do. The name, reasonable people, can, I think, have differing views on the name, because there's a lot of data out there that supports actually that it's not insensitive

or a pejorative term for Native Americans, but it's a debatable issue, and it's dictionary defined, and that's the mic drop for those that believe the name should never come back. And I think most of us, not everybody listening to this podcast, but most of us, me included, understand why the name is never coming back.

You would never invite that controversy as an ownership group that just paid $6 billion for an NFL. team. However, the logo, there's never been any indication by anybody. There's never even been an accusation that the logo is insensitive in any way, shape, or form. I mean, it's not the equivalent to Chief Wahoo, you know, and the longtime Indians logo. And so that's why I'm wondering why those two, the name and the logo, they get linked. Look, I said this the other day. One of the reasons the logo may never be something that the team would want to bring back is it may not match whatever name they have, whether it's the current name or a future name. Like, you know, right now,

the current logo would not match commanders. There'd be nothing that would link it to. But, you know, in a throwback situation, I just wonder why the league would view the low. as a complete non-starter? I mean, Eleanor Holmes Norton, the delegate from D.C., who has kind of fought for this, and it's in the piece. I asked her, I was like, what about that idea? Do you oppose, like, the idea of just bringing back the logo and not the name, maybe, especially? And she says, no, because it's the same thing.

So even to you and, like, so many people who see them as different things, there are still people who cannot unlink the two. And I think, again, going back to the NFL being so brand and image conscious, they don't want the Mike Floreos, you know, pro football ball talks of the world that have decent platforms and are always looking for controversy to have this as content again. And to have to have Roger McDell start answering questions about it. again, and then the NFLPA is going to weigh in on it. And it's just, it's a fight that they just have no interest.

I'm told just they're going to have no interest in picking. So let's move. So that's what they're trying to say. Let's move on and figure out something that can happen because this is like, like, you know, these are pink unicorns right now. If we're talking about bringing back any semblance of that. It's just, it's so, it continues to be for me. There's just so many hypocritical, there's so much hypocrisy around this, in part because they allow 75,000 every Sunday, Monday night or Sunday night or Thursday night or every night that the Kansas City Chiefs play football.

And I think they're playing on every night of the week to actually openly mock Native Americans with the tomahawk chop. That to me is just mind-blowing how Major League Baseball allows the Braves to do it and the NFL allows chiefs. fans to do it. But we'll move on. Let me just ask you to net out the Senate situation. How do you think it gets resolved and by when? I think Josh Harris and his team, they've been good at so many different things. They're good at fixing problems, it seems like. They've got like really, I'm sure you talk to them as well. They got smart people over there. And they are not going to, they are going to figure out a solution with this family that is going to allow this thing to move forward. And I just think they've got fixers over there that are going to fix it.

Is it a settlement? Is it like a non-disclosed? You know, you've got to sign a piece of paper and they just pay them off. Like, I don't know. I'm not suggesting I've heard that. I'm just saying there's a bunch of ways where they can, they can. can fix this. And so I think they get a fix, then I think it passes the Senate.

All right. So when it passes the Senate, then, you know, Josh Harris and the D.C., whomever would be involved in those negotiations. By the way, who would end up negotiating a deal with Josh Harris and

the football team for a stadium at RFK from the city standpoint? It would be the mayor. I mean, she's doing all these negotiations on our own. I mean, and And what it gets into is she makes these deals, and then you got to, she's like, okay, chief financial officer, tell me how I'm going to pay for it. I need this much money.

Okay, cool. I've got this agreement. Now, where are we going to get the money from? And then she, so I think she works backwards. I don't think she necessarily, and again, this is just kind of my, just from my impression of how she likes to work, is that she's going to negotiate that deal with Josh or a potential deal with Josh, just like she negotiated it directly with Ted, and then, you know, chief financial officer, how do we get this done? How do we get this paid for? So I think it's

her maybe a couple of very few advisors. Advisors. Let's get to your story, because to me, this is the part that not everybody understands. They hear the House vote pass. They hear the Senate vote, you know, if it does pass and everybody thinks, okay, we're going to get a stadium at RFK, no. This is when this, what we were just talking about, you know, the deal people start to talk deal. So what's it going to take for the city to lure Washington? What are they going to have to come up with? Because they're going to have to fund a portion of this, right? There's no, This is not going to be a privately financed stadium by Josh Harrison's football team. We can take that off the table, correct?

Yes, I mean, he's said as much. Right. He has said when asked as much, like, because he's privately funding, he's trying to privately fund a new basketball arena in Philadelphia. But he said basketball stadiums are not football stadiums. Basbo's games are like $1.2 billion. These football stadiums are like billions of dollars. no way he finances it all by himself, I don't think.

So you wrote in your story, and just for background purposes, Jacksonville, the city of Jacksonville is paying $775 million towards a renovation of the Jaggs' current stadium. The Bears have a proposal for a new stadium that will be funded by the state of Illinois to the tune of $900 million. The new stadium in Nashville, 1.2 billion in Tennessee taxpayer funding for the new stadium for the Titans. And then Buffalo got $850 million in Staten County funding for their new football stadium in Buffalo. So. And that was two years ago. And that's two years ago.

Yeah, there's no Stan Cronky solution here. So tell everybody. how Washington ends up in D.C. or if ultimately it's too pricey for D.C. to afford. So this came from one of my sources. I won't say which jurisdiction that is also trying to buy for the stadium. And he was like, go ask them how they're going to pay for it because there's no money left. And the way it works is that you can't take out, as, much debt as you want as a city government or else it screws up your bond, your credit rate.

You can't get bond. So in D.C., the law said you can only get like, you can only have an amount of debt that is equal to 12% of the total all your expenditures. That's really complicated. But the point is there's a cap. There is a cap on how much debt D.C. can take out. And after they gave the $520 million to TED and Capital One Arena, they are basically smack up against the edge of that debt limit. There is not another billion dollars in bonds they can take out without ruining.

I mean, legally they can't do it, and it would hurt their credit rating if they tried to do it. So they would have to figure out how to fund it a different way. The mayor has always said that she can pay for both. We can pay for the basketball stadium. She can pay for the football stadium. She's never explained how. And if you look at the numbers, the numbers say she is out of room on the city's credit card, so to speak. Meaning there's just no room left to go take out another $500, $600 million.

Now, Jack Evans, who's former D.C. council member, as you know, big stadium guy helped get Matt's Park approved and did the study that the city mysteriously has not released. One of the consultants who did a study on how you pay, how stadiums are good financially in D.C. And how you could potentially pay for a football stadium. He suggested something that is called tax increment financing, which is you set up a special taxing district around RFK, and I won't get into the details, but basically it's based on future revenues, and future revenues of the increased tax base around that area go to pay off the bonds or whatever you're taking out to pay for the stadium. And what I'm unclear about is how that's any different from any other, you know, debt obligation bonds that they've already taken out.

But the mayor hasn't, hasn't, has not explained that yet. You know, Nationals Park, they added a business tax to pay for it. They just added a new tax to come up with a new, the mayor, literal, or, you know, not at the time, leadership at the time just created a new revenue source. They created a new tax. Would that be a potential option? But the more traditional take out a whole bunch of bonds is not, at least on paper, is not available. Is there a selling of equity as an option, like to create an equity opportunity for investors to come in and then get a piece, you know, have their return on investment be these future revenues? I mean, there might be, but that's something that, I mean, if investors, I don't think cities and governments have a history of creating, you know, being the middleman as far as investors.

I mean, that's kind of what bonds are, right? Yeah. People buy them and expect their return that you're guaranteeing them, promising them. Yeah, but this is equity in a private, you know, company. ends up being a, you know, more of a risk on the investor side. But anyway, all right. So the bottom line here is right now, the way D.C. is with respect to, you know, debt to expenditures, they're up against it. They could, they would not be able, unless it's some sort of creating mechanism. They wouldn't be able to fund it the same way they funded the $520 million to TED. And so they're going

have to come up with that solution. Now, I thought one of the interesting parts of your story was the quotes that you had from Jack Evans, who talked about, look, you know, stadiums actually in our city have been, you know, enormous revenue producers for us, and they have paid for themselves or, you know, they're paying down debt faster than maybe even anticipated. So, and then there's this quote. There's so much that a domed football stadium can do for a jurisdiction. If we are going to do this, that is what we absolutely should do because you can use it year-round.

So I guess what I took away from that was Jack Evans believes in a stadium and the revenue it can produce, but it's got to be a dome stadium so it can be used year-round. Correct. That was one of the biggest takeaways that I got. Yeah. is that, and again, we haven't seen what this, we haven't seen what this study is going to say. That was kind of like poking around for it because he's one of the guys who did it. And it sounds like all their projections are going to be based on a dome stadium.

Like, we don't do this if it's not a dome stadium. If it's a 8 to 10 to 12 with a few concerts event stadium per year, that is actually not going to be a financial winner for us. We've got to be an 80-day. World Cup, you know, NCAA final four, Super Bowl,

maybe type of domed stadium. Does dome, is domed different than retractable roof? Yeah, domes are not retractable roof. Yeah.

And price tags are a lot different. I mean, I believe I'm no expert, but logic would tell you it's easier or it's cheaper to build a dome. And a fixed dome. home, then, you know, a retractable one.

And if you look at the plans for Chicago and I want to say Tennessee, because Jacksonville is a renovation, like, the renderings look exactly the same. Only one has a Titans logo on it, and one has, like, a Bears logo. So I think there's a, there's clearly, like, a model now, which probably has emerged as, as the to get these stadiums built. Because when you're getting a retractable route, you're adding a ton of money to that deal. Do you think a dome stadium would be the way they'd go in Landover?

I think that whatever stadiums, I think in Landover, they would do whatever Josh Harris wants to do, quite honestly. I think when you're talking, about dome, not dome vision, I think in the end it would have to be something that the, that the, that the team would support. But, you know, the M&T bank isn't a dome. And, you know, it does drive up the cost if you're putting a dome on. Right.

So, you know, I don't think it's, I don't think it would be as all or nothing as D.C. is going to approach it as. DC I'm getting the impression, it's dome or forget about it. I wonder, too, if, you know, especially as you described early, you know, the huge NFL lobby, if the negotiation would include, look, we're going to come up with this funding to do this Dome Stadium, but one of the events we got to get from the league is we got to get a Super Bowl. We have to have a Super Bowl commitment here. And I don't know if those commitments happen beforehand. But, you know, wink, wink, nod, nod.

You know, I don't think the NFL is not going to have any problem having the Super Bowl in the nation's capital. It also, but it's got to be big enough. I mean, keep in mind, remember what Snyder? Yeah, the 55,000 one? Yeah. Right, and that's the new model. I know. Huge, enormous, that's kind of where they're going.

Great point. The NFL is always going to want one of those huge stadiums to hold the Super Bowl in. I mean, it would have to be somehow expandable to at least 75, I would imagine. But you're right. These newer stadiums are smaller because, let's face it, there aren't as many people that want to go with the convenience of home and, you know, 4K and, you know, everything that's, by the way, much less expensive. And so, I mean, I've for years advocated the next stadium needs to be 60,000,

65,000 tops, limited premium seating. You've got to create like the feeling of exclusivity. Like you're lucky to have a ticket. You can't do. There's no market for Jerry World here in D.C. anymore. There's not. Yeah. So, but to your point, the Super Bowl isn't going to get played in a 55 or 60,000 seat stadium.

It just isn't. They're just not. So I don't know how, you know, I don't know how. where the sweet spot is. I don't know how, you know, how you hit the sweet spot with that issue. All right. Last question. So I haven't had you on in a while, but what's your prediction here on May 20th, 2024? How does all of this play out over the next, you know, year? I mean, within a year, aren't we going to know, don't you think? Yes. Yes, a thousand percent. Within how much time? When will we know? I think they're going to get the RFK land back, okay?

And then I think they hammer out the serious negotiations and move forward fairly quickly. Listen, Josh knows the three sites. He said this. He said he hasn't identified the Maryland and Virginia site, but he has identified RFK. They're not still looking around. He knows where the stadium goes in Virginia. He knows where the stadium goes in D.C. He knows where the stadium goes in Maryland.

He's waiting for the land to get officially turned over so then they can have meaningful conversations about how we get this done. And then they decide. But I think my prediction is by the end of the year, wouldn't it make sense to have an announcement before opening day, before week one of the NFL, to somehow in conjunction with the start of the new season, you know, the start of a new day and an era in announcing a new stadium in a timeline.

I mean, politically, you can see all the press conferences around the start of the season. And, again, it would be a way to boost ticket sales for him. It would be a smart financial move rather than, I mean, you're not going to want to take too much attention away from. you know, the Jane Daniels show. But I would think around the start of the league year, I mean around the start of the

regular season, or in season sometimes feels about right, feels about right. Definitely by the end of the year. And you think that that announcement will be, we are going back to D.C. That mayor, uh, we,

the mayor and I have been meeting at the, uh, at the Mayflower in the lobby, hanging out on couches. Nobody even saw us there. And we worked out the whole new deal. I think that DC checks every single box, including Josh Harris' vision for having a positive impact on community revitalization. And I think that from a business standpoint, from a football standpoint from a philosophical standpoint, D.C. checks all the boxes. So it's just going to cut the money then. If you miss that, that was a reference to Mayor Bowser's dates

with Ted Leonces. Yes, I caught it because remember, we have the worst investigative reporter. Exactly. Exactly. What, first of all, what cracked me up about that line from Ted is that, you know, no offense, Ted, but the fact that nobody recognized you is more of an indictment on you than it is our investigative reporters in town. I mean, you're sitting there with Mayor Bowser and nobody thinks twice. What is it? Is everybody in that lobby not from here? I mean, maybe that's true. Exactly.

Also, how out of touch you think investigative reporters are like hanging around the four seasons? We don't have money for that. Right, exactly. All right, hey, great job. I always enjoy our conversations. I appreciate it. All right, take it easy. A Murrow and Emmy Award-winning

Chief Investigative Reporter with WUSA TV 9. Eric Flack, everybody. Follow him on X on Twitter at Eric Flack TV. All right, that is it for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.