The Kevin Sheehan Show - Weird Show

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

Kevin and Thom argued,lectured, provided misinformation, and had questionable opinions all day. They talked testing, herd immunity, NFL and MLB resumption possibilities, "The Last Dance", NFL MVP odds and more. For some reason, they enjoy each other's company. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yeah, Sports Fix Tuesday. Tommy's at home. I'm in the studio. Aaron's at home. Hope everybody's doing well. You know, a lot to get to today. Nothing, you know, earth-shattering in terms of news here over the last couple of days, which is one of the reasons I took yesterday off. Last Dance. episode seven and eight we want to talk about here in a moment. I put out a poll today on my Twitter today asking people when they would feel comfortable again going back to a stadium or an arena. So I'm going to share those results and get your thoughts on it as well. I know you have a couple of things as well. Let me just open up today's show and tell you, Tom, why I was late in getting to the recording of this show because we had a scheduled time in mind. My youngest son, who was a sophomore at Penn State, or just finished his sophomore year at Penn State. He took online finals last

week. He wants to go back. He wants to go back. It says a lot of his friends are going back. He's got an apartment there, just off campus, barely off campus. And, you know, he said a bunch of his friends are back, and he wants to go back there. And I'm actually fine with that. I'm actually now of the mindset, you know, and this is subject to change, that I just, you know, knock on wood, I just don't think he would get, I think young people, you know, that aren't, don't have underlying diseases or issues. It's just such a major long shot that they're ever going to get seriously ill if they were to get the virus. Now, what I I was sort of arguing with him about, which is what took me a while to get to you today and to start the podcast,

is I made it very clear to him. I'm like, I'm totally fine with that, whatever. I'm now of the mindset, you know, we got to get back to doing stuff. Not the people who are older, not the people with underlying diseases, not the truly vulnerable. I get that. I don't want my mother who's had cancer. I don't want her out of the house. She's not leaving the house.

but I think, you know, young people and people who are healthy and not of a certain age, you know, I'm of the belief that it's time to get back to trying to figure out, you know, work and getting this economy back to some, you know, level of stability again. So what I told him, though, Tom, was the following, and this is where he seemed to have a bit of an issue. And this is what took me so long to get to you. I said, look, you can do that. But I just want you to know when you come back home, whenever that is, you know, a week from now, three weeks from now, you're going to self-quarantine when you get home. And that is, you know, somewhere between a week and two weeks, depending whatever the latest guidance is. You're going to have to do that.

You know, I'm going to work, but I'm being very carefully. You're going to be on a college campus, you know, and life is starting to move back in the direction with young people of being around people again and socializing. So if you come back, you're going to do, you know, if it's still the same sort of situation where they recommend that someone's coming into the house that hasn't been in the house for a while, you know, especially young people who are asymptomatic carriers of this thing more often than not, I said, you're going to have to self-quarantine. And he's like, well, what's that mean? How long? I'm like, well, you know, some people do it for two weeks. Oh, come on. I mean, like, you know, we have, you're going to work.

can come. That's me. I'm being careful. You're not going to be as careful as I've been. I come into a studio by myself. I've got these alcohol rubbing wipes, so I'm not touching door handles. I mean, am I wearing a mask everywhere I go? No. I don't wear a mask when I'm walking a dog. I don't wear a mask. I didn't wear a mask when I play golf over the weekend. Obviously, I wear a mask when I go into a grocery store, if I have to go into a retail store, because it's required now. But I'm like, Just understand. You leave here and you go up there. Have at it. I'm all for it. But when you come back, because he's going to come back, because it's summer soon, they're done with school. You know, I don't even know when the lease on his apartment runs out. I didn't even think about asking him that. But you're going to self-quarantine, period. So just under, and he started to talk again. I said, it's not negotiable, period. End of discussion. Just understand there's going to probably be a week to. two-week period where you're not able to leave your room when you get home. Your thoughts on this?

I think you're being very reasonable to them. I think, you know, you've got to, you've got to, yeah, this is part of the problem with the mindset right now that we're some kind of oppressed people. And we've had to storm the beaches at Normandy, and now we deserve a week on the beach in Hawaii somewhere. Or somehow we made it to Paris and the war is over. V.E. Day is come and gone and now we can hang out with all those beautiful French women for a few months?

Yeah, like we've done something. By the way, they love us over there. That's when they loved us. Yes, they did. So, I mean, you know, I don't know if you can drill into his head in that his consequence his actions have consequences for other people. That's right. That's right. It's a simple thing. How selfish do you want to be about the thing that's most near and dear to people right now is their help? Yes, and I think he understands that. I think that when I threw out, you know, two weeks, and by the way, I don't even know if that's what it is. I've heard that it's two weeks.

But I told them, whatever the CDC requires, when someone's been outside the home and they're coming into a new home, we're going to do that. And I said, I don't think it's less than a week. But, you know, he understands that the consequences would be for other people, more likely than not him. And I said, look, a lot of parents, they're not even thinking about letting their, you know, college-aged kids go back to, you know, to school and hang out at their apartment.

You know, this, I mean, I think many are now. I just, I am of the mindset that it is time for all of us to think about how we, you know, we get back to, you know, some level of functionality and of production because there will be catastrophic consequences to what we've done to the economy. And I'm not sitting here telling you that it wasn't something that we had to do. and I'm not even going to complain about whether or not it was an overreaction, because I think that's ridiculous. Everything, all the decisions made were made in the context of the information they had then. So you can't go back two months after the fact and say, man, those projections on the fatality rate were way off. Okay, well, that's what they thought then, and they made decisions accordingly.

I don't think anybody panicked based on the data that was there. I don't think anybody overreacted based on the data, but you also have to recognize what the data is saying today and then react accordingly. And by the way, we could be making more mistakes right now. This could be a major mistake that I'm making. He might get the virus that in a week, in two weeks, oh, it's mutated, and this is much worse,

and it's much more dangerous for younger people. Who that fuck knows at this point? Like, it's so impossible to predict. But anyway, I'm ready. for, you know, certainly people who are healthy. Understanding social distancing, understanding masks, where and when appropriate, all of that. I'm not saying we go back and, you know, everybody's, you know,

packing, you know, a jiffy-loob live for a concert tomorrow night. Look, I mean, even if we go back to, if we open up to a cautious approach, and a wise approach in terms of the things you talk about, social distancing, things like that. I mean, what are the industries that are going to be significantly positively impacted by that? I don't know what they are. Well, I mean, I think there are a lot, I mean, first of all, there are a lot of small businesses that may never come back after this. This was, this will be absolutely devastating for many small businesses, specifically those small businesses in retail,

certain types of retail, hospitality, restaurant, et cetera. You know, you've got a lot of small businesses that, you know, aren't flush with cash. I mean, it's a month-to-month deal. And they need to hit certain revenue numbers to create, you know, enough income to run that business. And two months is devastating to them. We've impacted this economy in ways that I don't even know that we can measure.

right now. The unemployment rate's just the tip of the iceberg. And it may get, you know, based on what I'm reading, could get a lot worse than where it is now. But in terms of the types of businesses, I mean, those are those are the ones that have been majorly impacted, but even businesses that rely on employees to be in an office to function better. Like my oldest son works for a company, Tommy. They're an event and marketing company. They put on events for commercial real estate. companies and they've reverted to webinars. Well, no one's interested in webinars at the same advertising level, you know, and sponsorship level as they are in a live event where you can, you know, you can spend time. And those things may have gone away for the, you know, for a year.

I mean, that business is in trouble. Lots of businesses that are in major trouble. Yeah, in other words, I mean, like, let's picture the one that everyone seems to point to are restaurants because that affects everybody because people want to go out to eat. I mean, restaurants, if they're operating under social distancing guidelines, think of the small little restaurant that you like to go to. Think of how many people will be able to eat there if you're practicing social distancing. I mean, it's probably 25%, maybe 30% of the normal amount. So will that have a positive impact on the business if they have to open up,

to serve maybe 30% or 35% of the people they normally do? Well, maybe in combination with what they're doing with carryout and curbside pickup and delivery, maybe it will. You know? You're right. And this is my point is, you know, and I hear people talking about it on the radio, and we'll get to this when we talk about UFC 249 this past weekend and its impact. But I hear people declare that, you know, that we'll have basics.

in July, or we'll have football in September. And I ask these people, how? How, what, what, how do you, how do you, how do you propose this is going to happen? Based on what knowledge? Well, nobody knows anything. Well, Fauci laid out the whole plan for football, although it was very, let's just say to me, tentative. Because, you know, did you, did you read what he told Peter King yesterday?

I didn't hear it. I read it. Yes, I did. I read it. And, you know, he's guessing. He's guessing. I know. Well, that's the part that, you know, is a bit concerning when the so-called experts are guessing. But they have been clearly all along because they've been proven wrong more than they've been proven right with a lot of this. So, I mean, this is just, this is just the thing that frustrates me the most. Here's what we know about the virus. There's 2,000 people a day right now and climbing dying in the United States. Death rate is up to 82,000 and growing. Okay? That's what we know. So making plans in August, I know you have to make plans, and I understand it leaves and stuff have to come up with plans to basically come back.

but anyone who thinks that this is going to, is sure that this is going to happen, is a fool. I mean, we don't know anything. I do agree with that, but I also wonder whether or not, I just wonder how much it actually matters to a significant percentage of the population,

because at this point, they don't want to hear that we don't know anything. They're willing to take the risk. I know they are. And I understand that. They're willing to take the risk that affects other people as well who aren't willing to take the risk. Yeah, but it's the, it's the shoot or be shot in some cases. And I don't mean that literally, figuratively.

It's, you know, if they don't take the risk themselves and put others at risk, well, then they're not going to make it. They have to feed themselves and their families, and they've got to figure out a solution. You know, we've got an unemployment rate now that it's just outrageous, and most of the economic experts think it's going to get much worse before it gets better. And I don't... But let me make it clear. I'm talking about the people who dismiss the danger. Look, we went out this weekend for a walk in Frederick. in Baker Park, really nice park.

And I'd say, including us, 20% of the people were wearing masks outside. That was it. Wow. I was out walking around Bethesda the other day, and I would say 80% of the people had masks on. It was surreal. Yeah.

So I don't know that, I'm okay with many people sort of recognizing that the risk to themselves is super low and that they have the knowledge of hopefully, you know, the risk being low to them and they understand how transmissible it is, but they steer clear of people who shouldn't be around people that have it. I mean, right now, Tommy, people are old and people. people who have underlying diseases, they shouldn't be leaving their home. They shouldn't be putting themselves anywhere near these people that are starting to. And I would disagree with you. I think I do understand it. And I think that they understand that, you know, there's risk. And I think

they understand, you know, what's going on. And they're saying, I don't really care. I'm not going to die from this. I mean, I think what we've learned more than anything for the time being with this, with this strain of COVID-19 is that it is a massive, massive long shot that anybody will die. But for people who are healthy and younger, it's almost, you know, the chances of them dying are so, so slim. And so I think they recognize that and they're ready to get on with their lives. And at the same time, you know, I think many of them will be very aware of people that they shouldn't be around. I think you're giving people too much credit. I think you're giving them too much credit.

Look, here's the numbers right now for the percentage of deaths in the United States per age group. 18 to 44, it's 4.5 percent of the deaths that have taken place in coronavirus in the United States, only 4.5 percent from 18 to 44, okay? from 45 to 64. Are you getting this from the CDC site? I'm getting it from the World Health Organization. Okay. Get it from the CDC.

45 to 64. Because the CD site focuses on the United States. Well, this is the United States. Okay. And it's coming from who? World Health Organization. 23.1%. What did you say?

45 to 64 years old. the rate of death is 23.1%. There's no way that that's true. I don't know where you're getting that information, but the death rate nowhere for any age group is 23% plus. No, of the people who have died. Oh, of the people who have died. I'm sorry.

I thought you were giving me the death rate for the age group. Okay. No, of the deaths that have taken place. 23.1% of those debts in the United States have been between 45 and 64. 24.6 have been between 65 and 74. And then it jumps dramatically 75 plus the 47.7%. So there's a big difference between 18 to 44 and the rest of the population. Yeah, definitely.

Definitely, but the percentage, the percent chance that you're going to die in those age groups that are under 65 is fractions of 1%. Yes. I would say under 45. Whatever. I'm looking for it, and I can't find it. It used to be easier to find for whatever reason. But whatever. You know, I'm looking here. I see a point for. percent for age 40 to 49. Okay. 1.3% for age 50 to 59. I think it's a list.

And, you know, 20 to 29 is 0.2%. Yeah. I mean, like, all the way up until 40, it's 0.2%. And it doubles to 0.4%. Right. And remember, you know, this is, you know, simple math. It's the deaths. you know, divided by the overall, you know, infections.

And what we don't know, but we do know it's much higher, we don't know what the actual infection number is because of all of the asymptomatic cases. So when you start to sort of extrapolate and guess, which is what they, and that's the number I was looking for, is the sort of projection on how many have actually been infected rather than reported to have been infected. It's a much smaller number than the number that's even

being reported in terms of the death rate. Because I think the overall death rate right now is just under 1% for all age groups. But that is based on the reported infection number. But we have a sense, don't we, that because of how many people have been asymptomatic, that the infection rate has actually been much higher than the number, which is like 1.3 million. So, you know, if it's double that, then the infection rate is half of what they're reporting right now. If it's triple that, it's, you just, you keep, you know that the death rate is lower than what's even being reported right now because you don't know what the real infection

number is. Anyway, we could sit here and do this for two hours, but nobody cares. I'm letting my son go back to school and hang out if that's what he wants to do. He'll have a decision for me, he said in a few hours. I can't wait to hear it. But he's just going to, he's going to make sure that when he comes home, that he's going to have to self-quarantine, period. And if he gets sick, by the way, he can't come home. And that's the part that really, like I said to him, I'm like, what if you do get sick? I mean, now I got to hoof it up to state college and walk into a hospital. I mean, of course I would, but I don't want you, you know, I don't want anybody to get sick.

So I put this poll out earlier today after the radio show, and we took calls. It was one of those things. You know how it goes. It's like we could have taken calls on this for three hours. And the question was really simple. When do you think you'll feel comfortable again going to a packed stadium or arena? And I said packed stadium, Tommy Arena, because that's really what it used to be. You know, you have a decision to go to a big time sporting event.

Well, it's going to be crowded. I don't know that we're going to have a packed stadium or arena, even when fans are allowed to come back without any restrictions for a while. because I think this has impacted a lot of people and they're going to wait. But the four answers I gave out were now, you'd be comfortable doing it now, a year from now, which basically I built into, you know, a year from now, more likely than not we're going to have some drugs. Probably not a vaccine, but we'll have some drugs that help and maybe keep you from dying. The third answer was never, you're never going to feel comfortable again going to a pack stadium or arena. And then the last answer possibility was, I honestly don't know, you know, right now based on how they feel.

And, you know, like approaching 2,500 votes or whatever, that's the answer that is by far in a way the runaway leader, which is I honestly don't know. But the second answer in terms of the vote count is now. And I think that's reflective of people. and I'm a little bit sort of in that direction, which I wouldn't go to a sporting event right now. I would do it a year from now, once there are meds. But I think people are just itching to get going now. You know, I didn't think people would say now,

and it's 25% of the vote. Yeah, but you see, that's the reckless people I'm talking about. I mean, you think people are taking into consideration, the impact of their action, I'm stunned the amount of people who aren't considering that, who don't really care, who think this is some kind of conspiracy or something like that. And what do you mean by, go ahead, what do you mean by comfortable? Do you mean not go at all, or do you mean feel good about going?

I mean somebody that would go. Okay, well, that's different. I mean, I might go like a year from that. now, but I wouldn't feel comfortable. I'd be thinking about the virus the whole time I was there. You know, I think you're not allowing for people who are healthy and younger and can also be responsible. They can put themselves at risk, and it's a very, based on what we know today, a very, very low risk. They've got a much higher risk of actually dying from influenza. Those people do than COVID-19.

But I don't know that you're doing them. I don't think you're accounting for them being and feeling responsible about their actions. Why can't they be both? Why can't they? Because I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it on social media. I haven't seen it on social media at all. I didn't see it at all.

I didn't. You don't think. What do you? Do you go? Do you go walk in the streets every day? I do. You do? I absolutely do.

Well, I do, I do too, and I don't see it. And I'm not reckless. I don't see this responsibility. I'm not reckless, and I haven't seen any reckless people. Oh, that's all I see. I see, put it this way. When I'm walking my dog, I don't wear a mask. I want fresh air.

I avoid people. They avoid me. There isn't anybody that I've gotten within six feet of. everybody you're walking down the street and people are courteous like within 30 yards of each other, are you going to cross the street or am I? You know, everybody's, I think your reckless description is, you know, for the people that you've seen down south on beaches, you know? No, no, it's from personal experience walking around town, walking in park, seeing just a total laugh.

What you get for living in the boonies? Yeah, living in the boonies. I mean, I can tell you that I think a lot more people are responsible with this. And if people want to go out and they want to get back to work and they're healthy and they're of an age in which the risk is minimal, I'm all for it, as long as they understand that they can't be selfish and that they have to realize that they are potentially through their actions, putting other people at risk if they're not responsible. I think people can do both. I think they can take their own personal risk and be responsible and not, you know, put others at risk.

Okay, okay. But you've declared that people are doing that, and I'm telling you they're not. Well, my experience is that they are. Okay, and my experience is that they're not. By the way, you know, Frederick is a very small, Frederick County is obviously very, very, small county compared to Montgomery or PG. But here's an interesting numbers here in terms of, I just wonder, it's off of people who have the virus or the reportedly have the virus.

You know that the 60 to 69, my age group, is lower than 20 to 29, 30 to 39. The infection rate? The infection rate? Yes. In Frederick County, he's a lot. infection rate is lower for 60 to 69 than every age group between 20 and 59. Isn't that a great sign? I guess it is.

No, it really is. It means that people who are more vulnerable are steering clear of places where they can contract the virus, and younger people are understanding that their risk is very low. And by the way, they're not infecting others. I mean, that's essentially what I'm advocating for. People are healthy and not vulnerable from an age and or an underlying health situation standpoint. It's time for them to get back out there and be responsible and socially distance when possible and wear masks where appropriate and steer clear of the vulnerable.

Because the vulnerable shouldn't... Where did you get the fake in human nature? I've always had more faith in human nature than you have. I've always been much more optimistic than you have been. You talk to idiots every day. Sid, don't talk to my, don't call my audience that. That's what you think they are. I have a lot of very bright people who call in and listen to the show.

Where do you think this is going to come from? This noble gesture of protecting honor. I think the area you live in, is more, I would guarantee this is a fact. I would say that where you live is a more conservative area and probably have more people, as you've described, that are reckless. And I live in Montgomery County, especially close in Montgomery County, in a very liberal area.

Liberal-minded, and those people tend to be much more, ironically, conservative when it comes to how they're handling this virus. That would be my guess. I have seen, I would say nine out of ten people that I have seen out and about have been out of their way, courteous, responsible, trying not to get it for me and trying not to give it to me. Okay. That's been my experience.

I'm not sure it extrapolates to the rest of the human race. It might not, but, you know, interestingly enough, where it may not extrapolate to, you know, some of these states in middle America, they've got the lowest infection rates. And by the way, just as an aside, this is where, you know me, both sides drive me crazy at times, the left and the right, our president and the media. But come on on the testing thing. We don't need 350 million tests right now. Every single American doesn't have to be provided a test right now. I mean, there are parts of this country where there are barely any infections and like hardly any deaths. Like they've got much bigger concerns in COVID-19.

Why do we have to ask the dumbest questions? Understood, you get a lot of dumb answers. I get it. But my God, this scandal over testing and not having enough for every American to be tested two or three times. Jesus Christ, do the math on this thing. We don't need a test for everybody. Everybody's not getting sick. They may be asymptomatic.

Well, that's an antibody test that we need after the infections come and gone. We need more of those. And by the way, we need more testing. Don't get me wrong. more testing. We weren't prepared. We didn't react well. Testing's an issue. I get it. But these reporters who ask these questions and have created in their own mind that it's an absolute scandal that this country hasn't been able to put together a program to provide testing for every single American. Not every single American needs to be tested. God, how often did we hear in the early

days from Dr. Fauci and everybody else. Look, if you have some symptoms, unless you're short of breath, just stay at home and self-quarantine, and it too shall pass. I know testing's important, though. I do. Okay, well, I mean, I haven't heard these reporters saying every American... Oh, my God. I watch...

This is just another illusion on your part. Oh, no, no, it isn't. Oh, God. Every time you do this, I get... 50 tweets from people saying, what is he watching? Is he only reading the post? And I'm like, I have no idea. Tommy, did you watch the task force press conference yesterday? And then watch the follow-up. Go back and watch Wolf Blitzer yesterday afternoon after the task force update. And tell me if they weren't literally, the president, by the way, not a good communicator, terrible communicator,

terrible leadership during this whole thing. Again, I completely agree with that. A child in so many different ways. But when he made this statement that we have prevailed when it comes to testing, the questions, the follow-up questions were all about that statement prevailing. How can you say that when we don't have a test for everybody? And then the constant conversation afterwards was, doesn't he know what our population is?

We haven't prevailed until we have enough tests for everybody. Well, no, that's not. But you said we haven't prevailed. I agree we haven't prevailed. I didn't say we prevailed. I'm telling you. What's wrong with falling up with questions on that? Because the questions are dumb.

You don't need 330 million tests. You don't need a test for every single person. in this country, Tommy. That's not definition of success. I'm not saying. Every person who feels they need one. Yes, but most people don't need one. The significant majority of our country, they don't need one.

That's the point. What if they feel they need one? But they don't feel they need one. Oh, they don't. I don't think they do. Okay. Do you? You think that every American feels like they need a test?

I'd like to have one. I don't care. If I had symptoms, I'd want to test. I haven't had any symptoms yet. I'm not going to get tested because I sneezed a few times the other day. Those tests should be, those tests should be used for people who really have symptoms. Now, again, don't get me, don't get me wrong. I don't think we have enough testing.

I don't think we have enough testing to say that we've prevailed. I think it's absurd. Okay, and I think the way that the questions are handled and responded to are like seventh grade with like fifth grade vocabulary. But the whole scene and the whole conversation yesterday after that, well, in addition to the Obama stuff, was about how can he possibly say we've prevailed when, with testing when we don't have a test for everybody. We don't need a test for everybody.

My God, you know what? This is the other thing, too. I hate getting into this on the podcast, but, you know, the bottom line is, and I know you feel differently, and I know your wife was a government worker, and God bless all the government workers out there. I don't have a problem with them. I lived in a world of being in small entrepreneurial companies, the opposite of sort of a government work environment.

And I'm not being critical of it. We need those people. trust me. But my God, what do we, as a government, what have we ever done well? I mean, it's typically a mess. This would have been a mess for any administration. Any administration, this is unprecedented for crying out our last. Oh, come on. It took two years and $20 million to build a website a few years ago for the health care. Government does not, you know what government does well, Tommy? They tax well. They don't miss that part out of it. This is ridiculous.

Okay. You know, it's absurd. Bureaucracy, slow, take into the cleaners on deals. There's some governments around the world that seem to have handled this better than ours. Well, we have a slightly different animal here. You know that? Slightly bigger country, slightly more bureaucratic government, not as nimble over the years. There's a lot working against us as far as that's concerned.

Look, I'm not, trust me, those of you that are hearing this differently, I am not expressing support for the way this has been handled by this administration. What I am absolutely convinced of is most administrations would have struggled with a lot of this. I think the communication would have been more mature and more professional, and by the way, more decipherable and less self-ableness. absorbed, but I think that what was presented to the world and to this country was an unprecedented dilemma. I mean, you said earlier, and I agree with it. They don't know anything. Every day we're learning something new.

But I'm not into the blame game right now on how this was handled. I think that many administrations would have struggled with this. everybody's struggling with it, Kevin, but the early response is the difference. On testing, yes. They bungled the early response on testing. We weren't ready for it, and then once we started to try to get ready for it, we didn't do it well. There's no doubt. And I don't know if the Obama administration or the Bush administration or, you know,

the Clinton administration would have handled it differently. I have no idea or better. I do know this. You know, I certainly believe that in terms of communication and leadership and the perception of the way it's being handled would likely have been different with any one of those people and administrations. I would agree with that. And here's one other thing. I know you've run companies. I've never worked for a government agency in my entire life.

I've done nothing but work for private companies. I know that. I can't think of one. Yeah, wrong industry. That I would trust to run the government, not one that I would think would have done a better job than what the government has done in most cases. Not one private industry in any of the businesses or companies I've worked for. And as you know, because we've known each other for a long time now,

I came from a totally different environment into the media business. And if I had spent my entire life in media, I would completely agree with you. But I didn't. I spent a lot of my time in tech companies, in internet companies, in retail businesses that were very entrepreneurial with a lot of smart people that I am absolutely 100% convinced would have been able to do a better. job than the job that's being done right now. But that's beside the point. It's perspective. It's our life experiences. But with the specific to the business of media that I've been involved in in broadcasting, there isn't one management team that I've worked for here that I would trust to handle this any better than the government. I would agree with you on that. Okay.

All right. What else we got? All right. So what about what about, what about, What about this sporting event going back to an arena? Packed or, you know, what's your feeling right now? I bet if you didn't have to go for work, would you ever go to an arena or a stadium again? What about for a concert? Yeah, I think I would. I think I would. But again, comfortable?

I wouldn't feel comfortable about it. Would it hold me back from going? Probably not. But I'd be nervous. at least the first couple of times. I'd be looking around and I'd be thinking about it. I still keep coming back to the same thing that we've talked about. Until there is a therapeutic answer,

a medical medicine prescription answer that keeps you or almost guarantees that you're not going to get seriously ill or die, that I don't think anybody's going to be comfortable. I think, you know, people where the fatality rate is super low are going to be okay with that. But I'm at the age, and you're certainly at the age, where I don't want to get it. So, you know, I'm not, I can't see myself going into a packed stadium or an arena for a sporting event. Now, concert's different because you can't watch those on TV. But for a sporting event, until there are, you know, there's some.

meds out there that make me feel like, yeah, you know, if I get it, I get a prescription called into CVS and I'm good to go. The vaccine, Tommy, too, I don't know how much you've been reading about this. This is pipe dream territory. I mean, do you know how many viruses they've tried to create vaccines for? We still don't have a virus for HIV, and this thing has HIV, you know, components to it. The meds are going to come sooner. And I think once that happens, there's going to be like a world exhale. Like, okay, this isn't going to kill us. It's going to kill some people.

Like influenza does. It's going to kill some people. But we're not, you know, we've got medicine now that we can take if we get it. That to me would be, look, I'm also in a position where I'm at that point where I don't love going to sporting events

anymore anyway, you know, unless it's really a game that I want to see. Like the last game I was at was the Maryland Michigan game. You know, sold out Xfinity Center sitting, you know, sharing arm rests with the people next to me. You know, people on top of each other. I told the story this morning and I think I told you, you know, during the podcast last fall, that Penn State Michigan game I went to in the fall where it's bench seating and literally everybody's in each other's laps, 11,000 strong. I will not, COVID-19 or not, I promised myself that that was the last one of those I was going to go to. It was

uncomfortable. So I can't see myself going to those kinds of events anyway unless it was a massive Redskins game, Wizards game, or Maryland basketball game. And for me, I'd prefer that there be some meds. Like, let's get to the point where we can get something prescribed for us. Once we get there, and to me, that's a year from now. So that was my answer. I don't have to go to sporting events to do my job. You know, I go to a lot of games, and I've always gone to a lot of games, more often, as you know, as a fan than as a media member. I can't see myself going back to a lot of those until there's, you know, I don't need a vaccine, but I need the medical answer there. You know, I tend to lean towards what you're saying, and I'll be kind of curious,

because, look, I don't think baseball is coming back in July, no matter what they're playing. that they're talking about. I don't think it's going to happen this season. But if it would, and they did allow media to be there without the meds, it'd be a real tough trip for me to make. I don't know if I could do it. I wouldn't let you do it. You wouldn't let me do it.

I wouldn't let you do it because you are vulnerable. You shouldn't be. You shouldn't be doing that. By the way, Tommy, in all seriousness, let's just say that baseball does resume July 4th, and there's an 82 game schedule, and if you've been following the story, the owners essentially have come up with a proposal

that they're making to the players today, so we'll find out how the players receive it. The prediction is they're not going to receive it very well because the owners are looking essentially for some sort of revenue split the rest of the way. But I don't see reporters being at these games. I see Zoom, press conferences after the games?

You're probably right. Why would they allow reporters who they're not going to test more likely than not into their ballpark and into their locker rooms? You're probably right. You don't need reporters in order to put the game on. No, you don't. You're right. The fans don't care if the reporter, they care if the television cameras are there,

but even the announcers could announce these games remotely. Like, what's the real benefit from being in the stadium? Well, that's actually, slowly, that's the way the industry is moving. I know. Like the tennis chamber, most of those events are broadcast from a studio. Yeah, so, I mean, this could be a kickstart to the notion of having broadcast teams in the studio for these events. So you're right. You're right.

supporters, I mean, the question may be answered for me. I just may not even be allowed. Yeah, I don't see, I mean, the goal will be for the fewest, true essentials, and you can cover a sporting event without being at the sporting event as long as you have access to talking to those players afterwards. And I'd see them, you know, Tommy, to be honest with you, when you think about this, I think that that's an absolute lock. that that'll happen, and that'll be the way it is for the foreseeable future. You know, one of the things that Fauci talked about in getting the NFL back, you know, he, first of all, he described that football is a sport that's very dangerous with a highly contagious

disease like this, with all of the contact. And his suggestion essentially is, you know, even though it would not be a guarantee to keep somebody from getting it, but that the 53 players and coaches be tested Saturday night before a Sunday game and then Sunday morning. And anybody that tests positive, they're out. They've got to leave in quarantine. And everybody else that tests negative is in. Now, that gets into the whole, you know, by the way, testing, back to the testing, testing is an issue. I understand that.

You know, we need more tests. We got to keep increasing the numbers of tests. I wasn't arguing against that. Trust me. I was arguing against if we don't have 330 million right now, it's a failure. That's what I'm arguing against. But, you know, we're going to get into these situations where sports leagues, really? You're taking basically 53 players, call it a coaching staff of 15. Just call it basically all in 100 essentials per team, and you're going to test them twice.

It's 200 tests for one team, four. 400 to put on a game over, say, a 12-hour period? That's going to be a problem for some people. Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, look, Sean Doolittle, the reliever for the Nationals. Right. On Twitter, he brought up a lot of questions related to the plan to bring baseball back. And one of the phrases he used was ethical testing.

Now, I'm interpreting that as me. Meaning testing that doesn't appear to be privileged. Right. Right. And that's a problem. Like until health care workers can be tested twice within a 12-hour period, you know, why should football? Now, you know, I mean, this is weak, and I will concede that point going in. But if we are trying to really get this economy back, there are going to be industries and businesses

that are going to need a certain privilege when it comes to testing. You know, the other thing, too, that got, you know, fired away at the president yesterday is, you know, how do they, you know, why does the White House get so many tests? And why is Pence and Trump being tested every day? Well, because they're the president and vice president, dummies. Come on. I mean, there are some people in some parts of our world for the purposes of functioning and economy enhancement that may have. some sort of privilege. I'm not about to put... Kevin, I don't think people would be asking those questions if those two people weren't so reckless publicly with their own disregard for social

distancing and wearing men. I agree with you. I'm not going to disagree with that at all. It's mind-boggling to me how Pence walked into that place without a mask on and that they sit, now look, in the task force and you're speaking and you're, you know, you know, You can't wear a mask. And we don't know that they're, yeah, but he's essentially admitted that he's not wearing a mask in the Oval Office and when people are around. Anyway, we'll get sidetracked again. My point is, will the NFL is a $11 billion, $12 billion top line business, one of the biggest consumer, you know, product companies in the country with, by the way, a meaningful, psychological, effect on popular culture?

Boy, that is a stretch. Would the NFL deserve to sort of, I mean, there are a lot of people that would say, you know what, I'll pass on a test for a couple of weeks if that means we can get games on Sunday. Listen, I know this is hard for you to believe, but most people don't watch football on Sunday. Yeah, I know most people don't. I understand that. But more people watch football on Sundays than do most other things.

Yes, but most people don't watch football. That's true. Yeah. Well, most, you know what, Tommy? Most people don't watch the Super Bowl. You know, it's usually right around half for 48% or whatever it is. But the Fauci thing, you know, he also, you know, in addition to him saying that, you know, it spreads and that would be a real problem. He did say that if you get a player on a team that tests positive and gets sick,

you know, there is the quarantine the team for 14 days. That's two games. And, you know, all of a sudden, their two games are canceled. And I agree with you. And I know you think the same thing. And it's like every time, and I'm trying to be optimistic about football in particular because I really, look, selfishly, I think it would be really. really devastating to the business that I'm in that you're in if there's no football in the fall.

I think I want football in the fall. I want baseball. I want it all back. I do too. But every time I think about it logically, I come to the conclusion that you came to before anybody else did before the NCAA tournament. When I suggested to you, what if one play test positive? You think that team would be, you know, basically out of the tournament? I asked my CDC neighbor that question, remember? And he said, well, maybe they should pick an extra 10 teams on Selection Sunday, you know, replacement teams. And I presented that to you, and you just looked at me because you were in studio that day. And you said, it's over. It's not going to be played. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm just saying if a player test positive, will that team have to forfeit

maybe be out of the... No, no, no, no, the tournament. It's not going to happen. And I think it was the next night or two nights later, Rudy Gobert tested positive and the whole thing. You know what's really funny in hindsight? It was really sports that made this thing blow up in terms of the response in early March. When the NBA shut down and the tournament shut down, it was like all happening, I know, simultaneously with, you know, mitigation and social distancing and trying to, flatten the curve and the whole thing. But those were bombshells, bombshells in the moment. You're right. That was the public alarm that was raised. That was an oh shit moment for people. This must be serious. Yeah. It was. All right. Let me get to a quick mention of MyBooky, because MyBooky.ag is offering all of the opportunities you need on UFC events. We had the big weekend last

weekend. There's another one coming up. And, you know, if the return of a good old-fashioned blood sport doesn't get your attention, have some fun on the house with a wager you simply can't lose. Right now, you can, through MyBooky.org, grab a risk-free bet up to $49, all right? They don't want you to miss out on any of the action. Neither do we. A free bet up to $49 at MyBooky.org. Earnings from MMA and simulated sports not coming in quick enough for you. Well, then try your hand in the My Booky Casino. You could do that too with instant access to hundreds of slot games and table games, blackjack

tournaments, starting every week offering opportunities to enter free and score a portion of huge jackpots. Now, when you go into these rooms, be careful, but they're a lot of fun to play online blackjack, online poker, online slots, online craps, Tommy. One of my favorite. Stay safe. Stay sane from the comfort of your own home. Sign up right now. Go to my bookie.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and they'll match your deposit halfway, all the way up to $1,000. If you put in $100, they'll give you $250.

Put in $1,000, they'll give you $500 for nothing. So you're basically getting free money to play with just for supporting the show. With MyBooky, you bet you win, and most importantly, you win. When you win, you get paid. And that's really important. MyBooky is reliable. I know a lot of these sites in mybooky.ag you can count on. If you win, you will get paid.

Okay. Boy, we've really, you know, we've turned today's show into, you know, a partial lecture, probably partially uninformed opinions, more likely than not. and more non-sports than we usually like to do. But I have a feeling that we've done that more often recently. I mean, we don't have any games to talk about. God, I wish we could be talking about the NBA playoffs. We would be heading towards the conference finals at this point

in both the NHL and the NBA playoffs if we had live games, but we don't. All right, I watched last dance. I actually got to it yesterday and last night episodes. seven and eight. Did you like them? Yes, I like them. I like them a lot. I mean, how can you not like them? I thought they were great. It's remarkable insight. This whole thing is great for Michael Jordan's legacy, because it's just for a lot of people, it just reaffirms what they always believed about Jordan.

and it really really puts a lot of distance between the Jordan and LeBron argument. Although, you know, as I think, Will Chamberlain is the greatest player in NBA history. But for those who debate LeBron or Jordan, this documentary puts a lot of distance between that debate, I think. No doubt. I mean, I think we talked about that after the first two episodes. And, I mean, I sort of anecdotally get it from, you know, my boy. and the reactions from their friends, et cetera, not so much for this because they're not around the house as much,

but they're blown away by Jordan. You know, I've had so many arguments with two of my three boys in particular about LeBron and Kobe versus, you know, Michael, Magic and Larry, you know, those conversations over the years. And they just, they're like, come on. You know, it's like they roll their eyes. I'm like, I'm not talking about George Miken for crying out loud. I'm talking about Michael Jordan and Magic John.

and Larry Bird, did they really play that long ago? But what's really been interesting has been their reaction to all of this. Like, they're blown away with how great Michael was. Blown away. And I think they recognize what we've been talking about for years. It's really, it's opened Jordan up to a whole new generation. Yes, it had. Now, the episode seven and eight, I'm going to give you a couple of parts that I liked.

First of all, on the father's passing and murder, I did, there were a couple of things that I think, you know, were made very clear for the conspiracy theorists, which I'm never, I'm never sort of on that path with these things. I thought it was made so obvious by, God, Mark, what was the writer of Rare Air? Do you know that guy? Mark Vancell. Yeah, do you know him? I know him very well. he's a wyomaniac. Is he?

He goes, he's been on wyomani a few times. Oh my God. Well, to me, he's a crazy man. He's a crazy man. Well, to me, he's been, he's been really, was really interesting in these two episodes for two reasons. He was close to Jordan, very close to Jordan in those days. For two reasons. One, he very articulately and logically blows the conspiracy theory of Jordan being suspended for

some gambling-related reason out of the water. It makes, and by the way, I've never felt that he, I've never sort of been inclined to think that that was some sort of suspension anyway. But between him and David Stern and their comments essentially saying, you know, and Mark Vancell said, do you really think that David Stern would take his number one asset, his number one revenue producer and flush it with the number one team and all of the teams that have been essentially living off Jordan and the Bulls and damage the product the way it would have been damaged by taking him out of the game for 18 months. Of course he wouldn't.

You're right. Of course he wouldn't. There's a question that essentially crushes almost every conspiracy is do you think everybody would stay quiet? Right. Well, there's always that too. Something like this. You see how hard it is. I remember, I forget who the CIA director was who had to resign because he was having an affair.

But the head of the CIA couldn't keep secret that he was having an affair. And like these conspiracies, like, you know, do you think people are going to stay quiet for years? everybody involved in something like this. It crushes almost every conspiracy. Yes, no doubt. Petraeus, by the way, it was Petraeus, right? That's it, that's it.

So, you know, in Stern, like, you know, could Stern lie, of course. The way he said it, the tone in which he said it, was convincing right and follow-up to Vancell's remarks. And by the way, you know, I saw people tweeting, well, the NFL suspended Paul Horning for a year. And who was the other guy? Was it Alex Carreyst, Tommy? Alex Carrey. So, but they weren't the Michael Jordan of the NFL? Come on. I mean, the NBA, first of all, has never been.

Paul Horning was pretty big. I know he was. But Tommy. On the Packers was pretty big. The Bulls of the 90s in Jordan in particular were carrying that league. carrying it on its back. They were killing it because of this. And so you're not, 18 months,

okay, Michael gets involved in some sort of gambling, you know, situation. Michael, you're going to be suspended for the first two games of next year. We can call it an injury. There's your conspiracy. 18 months, no. So that was number one from Mark Vancell. Number two was he specifically said that Jordan told him

a year before Jordan's father was murdered and he retired, that he was going to retire after doing something that Magic and Bird didn't do, which was win three in a row to go play baseball. Which, you know, I think most people thought that his father's death was the primary reason that he retired. But he was planning on it, according to Vancell. Now, listen, the one difference between a Paul Horning and Jordan is that the NFL is not built on stars. That's right. The NBA is built on stars, has been built on stars, since the magic and bird error, and particularly during the Jordan era.

It was built on the biggest star in the history of the league. Right, exactly. Yeah, it's a big, it's a big difference. While Paul Horning was a star on a star team. The NFL does not, you know, exist solely on its players, you know? Completely agree. It's a team. Yeah.

Real quickly on him as a baseball player, because I don't know that we've ever talked about this that much because I don't remember what you've said. But I thought it was interesting that both Terry Francona and Jerry Reinsdorf, who owned the White Sox, and maybe somebody else, that they all believe that Georgia Jordan would have made it to the major leagues. Do you feel the same way? I don't know. Batting 202 is without any experience at AA.

Yeah. It's pretty impressive. Right. I mean, Tim, you know, so, and here's what nobody brought up. I can't believe nobody brought this up. Jordan played that winter in the Arizona Fall League, which is the league where your best prospects play. Right. Harper played in that.

Yes. He hit 251 in the Arizona fall league. He started with a 13-game hitting streak, but they said they were feeding him fastballs, and then they started to throw the hook, and he couldn't hit it. So in the league with the best prospects of baseball, he batted 251. It was an impressive accomplishment. He did. He sold 30 bases when he was in.

major league base with double-A. Let's not forget. Remember what Roy Williams said. He ran a 4-38 sub-4-4 at North Carolina, 40. So what he did was very impressive, but you know what? As an aside to this, I was with him the day he realized that he was a scab. What do you mean? It was in spring training. Right, 94.

The baseball strike was going on. Right. It was spring training, and they were using minor leaguers at the time. We hadn't gotten to, quote, replacement players yet because they hadn't started the season yet. Right. a group of reporters, maybe four or five reporters around his locker, when we told him that the baseball union, because he reported to camp, considers him a scab.

And he was shocked by that. He was surprised by just the idea that not that he would be playing in games, but just him as a minor leader reporting to camp and taking part in spring training, the baseball player's union would consider him a scab. So he left, right? He left. I think he left the next day. Yeah.

So I was there when he figured out that his baseball career was over. That's interesting. Yeah. I do, I mean, it is so hard. I've always felt this way, and most of you that have either read it or heard it or if you participated in sports may feel the same way. Hitting a baseball was really hard. I played baseball through ninth grade, 10th grade.

But basketball was my thing, and I loved basketball. And I was a decent fielder, and I could hit a little bit. But when we got to like eighth, ninth grade, and guys were throwing curveballs, that's when it really became very difficult. And I wasn't into it. You know, to me, hitting a baseball is really as much a learned, skill as it is in athletic feet. It's an athletic feet. Don't get me wrong, but it's also in very similar ways to hitting a golf ball. It's this learned, trained skill. And what's really

amazing about Jordan is that he hadn't played baseball in 14 years. And he's in the Arizona Fall League. He's in AA and he ends up hitting 202. It's really an incredible achievement, which I guess is why a lot of those guys thought, you know, the incredible progress he made in such a short period of time that he eventually would have been and made the progress necessary to get to the big leagues. You know, you're right. I mean, it's an amazing achievement. He was ridiculed for it at the time.

How about the whole Sports Illustrated thing on the cover of Sports Illustrated bagged Michael and he never talked to them again? Yeah. Yeah, he was, he was. I mean, he used to manufacture grudges. This was a real reason. to have a grudge, and he took it through his entire career. Yeah, he had a list like you did and do. Well, think about, how about the LaBradford-Smith thing? I didn't realize, C.J. told me

this morning that he remembers reading that it was made up. I didn't realize it until last night when I was watching it. You know, those of you noticed. Yeah, neither did I. I didn't realize he made it up. Yeah, LeBradford Smith, who played for the bullets back then had 37 against Jordan in the first of a back-to-back against the Bulls. And on the way off the court, it was always reported that LaBradford Smith went up to Michael Jordan and said, Nice game, Mike, right? I think that's what it was. Nice game, Mike. And he was fuming. And he told his teammates, the next night in Washington, he would get what LaBradford Smith had in a game in the first half. Smith had 37. Jordan scored 36 in the first half the next night on the way to 47. Well, Wilbon and Aldridge,

both confirmed that Michael told him years later, LeBradford Smith never said anything. He just had to create a reason. The reason should have been that LeBradford Smith got 37 on him, but he had to add to it to create fire. Here was the thing that I found really interesting in these episodes. The playoff game against the Knicks, the year Jordan was out, Game three back in Chicago when the Knicks had a two-game to nothing lead on the Bulls who won 55 games that year without Michael. Pippin was a star. It was Koo Coach's first year in Chicago.

And the Bulls were good. They were really, really good. And so were the Knicks. And this was the Knicks chance to finally get by the Bulls without Michael there. And in game three, it's a famous game. Most of you know this if you're a sports fan or you're an NBA fan. Scotty Pippen was with 1.5 seconds left in game three, the score tied at 102-102.102. The Knicks are up 2-0. The Bulls are back home. They need to win this game to get the series back on track a little bit. And Phil Jackson draws up a play for Cooch to take the final shot with 1.5 seconds left. Now, Cooch, they went through this, had made a lot of big shots during the course of that season,

Like, you know, late game, you know, clutch shots, game winning shots. And so Phil dialed up a play for Cooch. Well, Pippen, you know, was so upset by it. He wouldn't go into the game. He was asked to throw the inbounds past to Cootch, and he was so, you know, so angry with Jackson, he refused to go in the game with 1.5 seconds left. Now, the rest of the story sort of gets told about what happened. happened after the game, and I'll get to that in a moment. But I was thinking about this last night.

You know, the play worked. Cootch catches it, turns, fires, knocks down a game winner. They win 104, 102, the series is two games to one. What if Cooch had missed the shot and the game had gone to overtime? I would love to know from Phil, does anybody think that Scottie Pippen would have played in the overtime. What if they had lost the game and not won the game, you know, in overtime with Pippin or without them? And Pippin, you know, the fact of the matter is they won the game, but they didn't feel like it walking off the floor because Kerr's telling the story.

I think it was Kerr is saying, we're walking off that floor and we're still stunned. And they liked Scotty. That's the thing. They liked him. They respected him. and so this was really a surprise deal. And Bill Cartwright, they all told the story, addressed the team in the locker room and was in tears

as he was telling Pippin, you quit on us. How could you do that? You quit on your team. And they all said that Cartwright was crying as he was telling the story. Now, Pippin apologized and got it back on track for that series. But, you know, Koo-Coge made this shot. And you see, by the way, I thought it was a really interesting shot of Phil Jackson. After he makes this shot, Phil Jackson's just walking off the floor by himself with no smile, no anything.

Because all he's thinking about, as all of them are, with the exception of maybe Koo-Coach, is, oh, my God, what did Scotty Pippen just do? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's something that he'll – and Jordan said he'll never live in. down and he's right. Yeah, but you know. It comes up in every discussion. Yeah, and he, you know, the funny thing is Pippin said that he'd do it again the same way, which, that's stupid. That's stupid. Yeah. That's stupid. That's just stupid, you know, stubbornness. God only knows what that is. Let me ask you a question about the whole tone, particularly in, in, in, in eight, uh,

part eight of the documentary of my and this is something near and dear to your heart michael jordan's competitive nature yeah so i i've got i've got that you know as it's something i was going to get to so let's get to it now um you know it's it's funny like i i you know jordan told us before this whole documentary aired that a lot of people aren't going to like me when this is over well through the first six episodes there was nothing unlikable about him in fact he became more likable to me. But I do think after these last two episodes that there are people watching going, man, what a dick he was. You know, he was really rough and out of line with guys like Scott Borell, you know, who they basically made out to be like, you know, a submissive, like, you know, soft guy. And

he was a good player in college, really good player. I thought it was, I have no idea what Scottie Borell was as a professional. But, you know, I wasn't that turned off by it. I think a lot of it was a little bit sort of for drama. You know, if it was bullying, you know, and did anybody really say that he was a bully? I don't think anybody really said that. They said he was so overly demanding and tyrant-like.

And actually his comment, and I'm going to paraphrase this, but it was the end of episode seven, Tommy, the first one, the other night, when he said, some of you that are watching this, probably thought I was a tyrant and not a very nice guy, but that's because you've never won anything. That was really, he looks right into the camera and says, you might think I'm a tyrant or I'm not a good guy, but that's because you've never won anything.

And he said, I... But you know, but you see, that's where it goes off the rails for me. Look, I understand whatever works for Jordan to motivate him, and he's got the rings to back it up. But there's more than one way to win. Yes, there is. You're right. I was going to say the exact same thing.

Yeah. And you don't have to be an asshole. No, you don't. To be a winner. I mean, so don't sit there and say, if you don't understand why I was sure, you don't know winning. Yeah, totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, you know, and,

and Kareem and some of the greatest winners of all time may not have been anywhere near as big of an asshole, but it didn't make them any less competitive. You know, I remember I used to hear that a lot, you know, and some of you out there have heard that in business. Like if you're not really tough and if you're not, you know, you don't have to be an asshole to be successful. That's bullshit. That's, that's fake. You know, he said at the end of that episode, I wanted to win by. but I also wanted them to win and be a part of it as well.

Now, let me just say that in listening to the players, there's no doubt that he was hard and probably borderline, bullyish, and a bit of a tool. But I don't get the sense that they really hated him, you know, or really disliked him. Did you get that sense? I don't think I really got that sense from any of them. No.

No, I didn't get that. And so I think some of this may be overdone to make them out to be this, like, killer competitor of all time. And there's only one way to do it, the Jordan way or the Kobe way. I'm with you. I mean, I do love, and like a lot of you guys can sort of identify the people that are hyper-competitive versus just competitive. Because all of these professional athletes are competitive dudes. They wouldn't be there without it unless they're just exceptionally talented. Jordan is on edge.

Kobe's on edge. Steve Smith, Senior, on edge. Brian Mitchell, you know, a little bit on edge crazy. Yeah. You know, Gary Clark. Like, the guys that just, it sickenes them to lose. Like, losing is, the misery of losing is so much worse than the joy of winning. And I know a lot of people like that that aren't even in.

sports, you know, but it doesn't mean you've got to be an asshole to be that. But I think some of that asshole stuff with him was a bit overrated and listening to some of the teammates. Actually, now that I think about it, there was one player, although B.J. Armstrong was the one that Jordan called before he came back to say, hey, let's go get breakfast. Yeah. Because I had this sense that B.J. Armstrong didn't have a good relationship with him there for a little bit. Well, I'm not sure anyone

had a close relationship with him. No. Well, the... Are any of those guys' friends? I don't think so. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe not.

You know, Wilbon told me, I asked Wilbonne a couple of weeks ago right after the show started, I had him on, and he knows Jordan well. And I said, You know, over the years, just observationally, some of those guys like him are very, and, you know, I said for the lack of a better way to describe it, they're sort of singularly focused and narrow. You know, like Joe Gibbs, we always talk about Joe Gibbs, like during the height of Iran-Contra had no idea who Oliver North was. He's coaching his football team.

He didn't know anything that was going outside of getting his team prepared to beat the team. the Phoenix Cardinals, you know, who they were three touchdown favorites over, but he thought he was going to lose the game. You know, and Jordan had sort of that, I thought Jordan had some of that same thing, and Will Bond said, no, no, no, no, no. Jordan is very interesting. He's very interested. He's curious.

He's, you know, he's traveled a lot and that he's not that. Which actually surprised me a little bit, but I don't know why. I mean, I wouldn't have known any differently, but I always sort of put him in sort of that same, like, no one could be that great unless they're totally 100 percent, 24 hours a day, seven days a week working on that. I agree. I agree. And you know what's interesting? It hasn't translated to him as an NBA executive has it. No.

It hasn't. And you know why? Here's the one guy I thought of. One guy I thought of throughout all this was how miserable Kwame Brown's life must have been as a wizard. Oh, my God. Wilbon told me some of those stories, yeah. He must have been merciful. I mean, no, Buck told me those stories.

You know, Buck and Phil have a podcast. I know, yeah. And Buck told me some of the stories of being on the plane and how Jordan just was just relentless towards Kwame Brown. because Kwame Brown was... That was a reflection on him. He was his number one pick. Yeah. What did he say?

What did... Oh, Buck told the story to me. He said that Jordan, after a few months of Kwame Brown, or maybe it was after the first year of Kwame Brown, told Buck and a couple of other people, I learned a valuable lesson when it came to Kwame Brown. I will never again. draft a player that can't palm a basketball.

Apparently, Kwame Brown had small hands, couldn't palm a basketball. And he said, especially for a big guy that needs to close at the rim and finish at the rim, you know, he would need two hands, not one. And he said, I'll never, ever draft a player that can't palm a basketball again. But anyway, this stuff, I thought the end of episode seven was really sort of dramatic. with the way Jordan, you know, said, you know, you don't think I'm a, you think I'm a tyrant, you don't think I'm a good guy, but that's because you've never won anything. And I, I tend to agree with you. I totally tend to agree with you. But that was, you know, that's the way he did it.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat. Now you're-you-to-do it. It worked for him. Yeah, but here's one, I think, truism. You know, to be at his level, you really have to have that hyper-competitive gene. Again, that and being a jerk don't go hand-in-hand necessarily. You know, magic was ridiculously competitive. Bird was. Now, Kareem wasn't very likable. But, you know, but anyway, that was the way he did it.

That was his mentality. You know, and he said, he said, that was the way I did it. That was my mentality. And if you didn't want to play that way, then don't play that way. you know, and you're not going to be a part of this team. By the way, when he came back, you know, it was like Kukoch and Kerr, the new guys that he hadn't played with that essentially caused the confrontation in the fight between Jordan and Kerr.

And Kerr swung at him and hit him, and then Jordan swung at him and hit him back. But Kerr standing up to Jordan, it sounds like no one else had ever done that before. Which I find just stunning. I find that nobody was willing to take on Michael. I just find amazing. Yeah. Yeah, you know. I mean, if I'm playing a guy on the court like that in the old days when I play,

I'm going to take them on. Yeah. I might get my ass. Right, but you're swinging. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't get that. He had respect for Curry.

He said that after that incident. And Kerr said that their relationship, you know, was great after that, that there was a real mutual understanding. And they obviously played well together. By the way, I saw this. Oh, when he came back, you know, at the end of the 95 season, I thought, you know, he was admittedly very nervous. I'd forgotten that he put his shorts on backwards for that first game.

That's actually pretty funny. But I saw this on Twitter, and I think it's actually sort of an interesting question, and that is, if Jordan never retired at the end of 93, how many titles would he have won? I mean, the answer is still six, seven, or eight? Yes. I agree. Well, no, no, no. Which of those three answers would it be?

Oh, I think it would be eight. You do? Yeah. I think one of the things we learn from these last two episodes is how physically exhausted he was at the end of 93. And by the way, those Houston teams were really good. The Houston teams that won it were really good teams. I mean, I've always thought this, that I would have loved, they never played Houston in the finals. You know, it was Lakers, Portland, Phoenix, and then Seattle, Utah, Utah.

So they never, ever played the Elijah won, you know, Houston teams, and I would have loved to have seen that matchup. I think that would have been phenomenal because those Rockets teams were really, really good teams. Yes, they were. I mean, it would have been really interesting to see that matchup in 96, 97, or 98. And I forget specifically, you know, where Houston got knocked out along the way those years. But we never got to see that. And that's too bad because that would have been their best competition.

You know, the Lakers team that they beat originally was not a Kareem Lakers team. It was a lot of DeVatts along with Worthy and Magic and Byron Scott, et cetera. When they beat, you know, Portland, you know, they weren't as good as the Bulls. Phoenix certainly had a shot. Utah, you know, played him tough twice. Seattle, you know, we went to six in that series. By the way, that was the other part we didn't talk about Gary Payton. He basically scoffed at Peyton and laughed at Peyton, you know,

talking about how maybe if he had checked him for the entire series. But maybe the best matchup and the team that could have beaten them would have been, you know, that Rockets team, especially the one, the second one, that, that had Clyde Drexler on it. So you had that second one, it had Elijah one, it had Kenny Smith, it had Drexler, it had Big Shot Bob, probably still had Vernon Maxwell. You know, Scott Brooks was on that team. I asked him about that a couple weeks ago.

He was on that championship team, that Houston championship team. Okay. Didn't play much, but anyway. No. All right, what else you got? I liked it. I've loved the whole thing. I think it's been exceptional. Go by. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Nothing else. I got nothing else. Okay. I got nothing else. You know, the only other thing I just thought was really interesting real quickly is Caesars had these Super Bowl, had these, I'm sorry, NFL MVP odds that they came out with yesterday.

and Mahomes obviously is the favorite and Jackson is the second favorite to win the NFL MVP if we have an NFL season. You know who the third favorite was? And this really surprised me. So Mahomes was 4 to 1. Jackson was 13 to 2, so 6.5 to 1. And then at 9 to 1, the third favorite to win the NFL MVP next year was Dak Prescott at 9 to 1. and I'm like, Dak Prescott, more than Russell Wilson, more than Tom Brady in Tampa, more than Aaron Rogers, more than Drew Breeze. And the point I would make is that these odds are also very reflective of what Vegas thinks about the teams that these players are going to play for.

So they are very bullish on the Cowboys. Caesars is anyway. and the Cowboys do have a really good roster. You know, who knows about McCarthy, but it's almost like they're saying, you know, even if Dak plays on the franchise tag, McCarthy is much better than Jason Garrett. They've got, you know, they added C.D. Lamb in the draft to already, you know,

Amari Cooper, and they've got Zeke Elliott. You know, they still have some defensive issues in spots, but for him to be the third MVP pick means that they really are high on Dallas next year, which I just thought was interesting. Like Carson Wentz isn't even anywhere near the top of that list. Brady, to me, would have been the third pick. Brady Rogers or Breeze before Prescott. Well, you know, the Dallas Cowboys quarterback is always going to be a high-profile.

Yeah, but that's, this is, you know, that's an MVP pick. I don't think your general fan would think of Prescott as the third best player in the league or the third best quarterback in the league. They're just not thinking that way. And that's not necessarily in the odds creation for the award because you've got to be on a team that's perceived to be a good team. But Russell Wilson, Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, to me would have been much higher if you would ask me before I saw this, much better odds to win an NFL MVP next year than Dack Prescott. And I think Prescott's pretty good.

I think he's a decent quarterback. Man, he's going to make a lot of money next year if he plays on the tag. Okay, I'm done. You're done. We'll talk on Thursday. Thanks.